Marketing is hard. But I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Lib Sin ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one. Across thousands of shows to reach your target audience and their favorite podcasts with Lib Sin ads. Go to LibSyn ads.com. That's L-I-B-S-Y-N. Ads.com today. I'm the cool dad. That's my bad. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and under your attention. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired. Yelling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy. Welcome to Dear Old Dads. The podcast that's now just screaming straight from Facebook videos. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith, any Libos Nick. Hello, gentlemen. I mean, you're the one who brought the video. Tom, I don't know why you're actually like we're just not immune to my own criticisms, you know? I'm going to podcast this really half-ass in it. Thanks, new listener. I don't know where I show new listener. Person who was scrolling through iTunes and found our show and decided to give us a shot. Seven percent in episode Tom. Get your game on. Get your game on. We actually have a really great video that I did find weirdly enough from a Facebook video that Haley sent me. That's a Trevor Noah clip from The Daily Show. Which I guess he's not on anymore because John Stewart's on The Daily Show now. But I thought it was a great clip and I think he brings some things that are worth talking about to the table in a way that I don't even want to try to summarize. I think his he does such a nice job of putting this together that it's worth talking about. Can you get right on it? Let's jump in. Well, the only thing worse. The only thing worse than Tom's intro to our podcast is now is the auto ads. Yes, truly. We might half-ass this show, but we full-ass to mouth you, the podcast. Every time we fill your ears with auto ads, but there is a way that you can avoid that pain and suffering. And that's by giving us money over at patreon.com/drioltads. We'll get an ad-free version of every single show. Plus you'll get a little bonus episode every month. The bonus. Yeah, well, yeah, maybe we should tease that a little bit. Yeah, the bonus was like this month, but we had a really good conversation about relationships and when lines are crossed and they look, I have gotten the feedback. I'm not going to say who. I've gotten the feedback that I occasionally tend to make this show too often about monogamy or lack of it or it's absurdity. And I will say while the conversation may have started that way, I think it ended in a really interesting place about boundaries and how we set them and how we enforce them in relationships. But the only way you're ever going to hear it and the only way you're ever going to escape the confines of monogamy is over at patreon.com/drioltads. That's right for just $7 an episode. We will see you from your monogamous relationship. Check it out. Is there still the sugar tea over there for Eli and I? Yeah, exactly. Has anyone been. No, it's not about that. Come on people, make it happen. Make Eli and I dress in little suits that match and do stuff together. Little sailor suits together. Come on. I'm going to go be a patron now. Very nice. I'm putting my third in here. It's recursive to the other levels. I wasn't sure how to approach Tom about that, but hey, Tom, if you're going to, yeah, awesome. The answer's yes. Yeah. I was scared to ask personally. I wasn't. All right, so Tom, I think you've got this clip queued up. People don't realize how often men are experiencing a lack of intimacy. And the only place that they can experience that intimacy is through sex. We've created a society where men are so afraid to be vulnerable with each other, to be sensitive with each other, to care for each other, to love each other. You know, even saying that as a guy, you always have to change. You can't just say, I love you. I love you, dog. You know what I mean? You got to throw it like you can't just say it. And it's interesting because that is where I do feel women have done a much better job of being there intimately for each other. Not sexually, but intimately. And I think we take for granted how much in society men who say sex is the thing they're not getting are actually struggling with a lack of companionship, of intimacy, of being in a space with a person, where they're sharing everything from serotonin to endorphins to what humans need to feel. And I hope we can change that conversation just a little bit more. I hope we get to the place where guys go, "Oh, actually, I actually didn't need the sex. I needed to be held." And I live in a society where it's hard to be held unless I'm having sex. Because as guys, you can't just go to a guy and be like, "Just hold me." True. And I hope the conversation goes there, you know, not just from well, or right to sex. It's like, "No, sometimes you just want to be held." There are many sex workers who've talked about this where they'll talk about how many men will pay them and then say, "Hey, can we just talk?" Can we just sit on the bed and talk and can you just hold me? Can you just. And I think if we have a little more of those conversations, a few more honest conversations, few more vulnerable conversations, we may get to a place where it's not just about sex or no sex. It's people actually saying, "Oh, yeah, we are full human beings who require a full spectrum of, you know, affection and affections towards us." And in the same way, for many years, great therapists have been saying that women have to be allowed to express that they want and enjoy sex. I think we also have to encourage men and society to go, "Hey, I want to express and enjoy intimacy despite or apart from sex." Nah, I just need sex, honestly. [Laughter] That's your first show. That's a show. That's a show. But. Someone made it through our entire clip and was like, "Wow, I can't wait to hear them." Yeah! [Laughter] Nah, for me, Viggs! I wanted to talk about this one. I thought this was great. Like, I don't know Trevor Noah. I'd never watched a daily show with him on it before. So, I don't know shit about Trevor Noah. But what I loved about that is a couple of things. And the one thing I want to highlight first is even in this really kind of intimate space with the audience that he's creating, hold me is still played for laughs. Oh, yeah. When he says like, "What if men just want to be held?" Everybody still laughs at that. Even as he's calling out in that same conversation, I think that's really like says so much about how true what he's saying is. If what he's saying wasn't really true, then that would not play for laughs that way. It plays for laughs specifically because it's so socially unacceptable for men to ask for intimacy one among other men, you know, male to male intimacy and an ask for that intimacy is really difficult. And it's socially not acceptable or wouldn't play for a laugh on his show. And I also think that that lack of knowing how to ask for intimacy that is nonsexual doesn't stop just when it's male to male. I think that also in many ways, in many times, informs the way that men treat women to his point where like the only way we know how to ask for any intimacy, oftentimes because the way that we're socialized is to ask for sex. And I think that that's a really important conversation that I want to have here. Yeah, no question. I think one of the things that he also touches on in that that's really interesting and that we've talked about a little bit but like patriarchy also harms men. And one of the things that he talks about is like because the lens of how men have sex and experience intimacy has been created within patriarchy, it's hard even to break out of what you're supposed to want because it was created by other men, if you know what I mean. I know that was a sentence worth diagramming, but like one of the real traps that comes up in that situation is like what you don't want sex and it's like well, no, I do want sex, but like we created a system that's harmful to us. How do you talk about creating a system that's harmful to you when you were the ones that were in charge, you know. I think that patriarchal socialization it affects everybody in the equation. Why do we know that but like it affects your saying it affects men, but like men are not the only people that are socialized to enforce patriarchy in some ways, right. So we have taught everybody that this is how men are going to want to ask for intimacy wasn't just men in that crowd laughing at the hold me joke. There are women in that crowd that are laughing at that hold me joke as well because we've also socialized women to expect men to ask for intimacy only in this one socially acceptable form and format. And I think that's that's really something as well like everybody in the whole society we've created swims in the same soup nobody gets to not be a part of the soup. We all lose by this and we're all enforce it. And when we do that we lose our ability to ask for intimacy and I think if you can't ask for intimacy outside of sex we are creating women.
weird pathology, social and interpersonal pathologies around sex and sexuality and that ask and that sort of entitlement and demand that many men feel and many women are bare the brunt of. Yeah. So what do you think the claim is? Is it that like men are not having as much sex as we used to or something? And like also they have a problem with it. Is he saying, well, maybe this solution is if we were able to snuggle more with either other men or I guess even just our partners that would like change the number or what? No, I think that was just an intro into the thought about men craving intimacy. I don't think he was proposing it as a solution. I think he saw sex work being put in this context of the right to sex and it inspired him to talk about the idea of like what men are craving versus what they're told they're craving. Man, that's that's the part I can't relate to. I don't understand it. Look, I crave what I crave. Eli, okay? I crave what I crave. Uh, nobody's telling me to crave anything. Do you think that's it? I don't know how to evaluate that. Do you think? I think his claim is that intimacy is what is often missing and sex is the only socially acceptable way for men to request intimacy. And so yeah, certainly like we want a certain amount of sex. Everybody has a certain libidness sort of like space that they want to live with in, right? And that varies from person to person. But I do think that there's something at the core of his argument that says like set aside what you're asked for sex as its own thing and consider how we go about asking for intimacy as men from our partners, specifically from our partners. I think it's a really important conversation to have because I think if the only way for men to ask for intimacy, both emotional and physical is through sex, then we will create a really problematic and broken dynamic. Yeah. Interpersonally and personally. So I understand the argument he's making. I, what I'm trying to say is I have no way of evaluating if that's like representative. You don't feel like that's socially true. I have no idea. That doesn't resonate with me at all. And so I don't know like, okay, random guy on the street. Are you asking your wife for sex because you actually just need, you know, in addition to sex, some other intimacy you're not getting. I actually just don't know. I have no idea if that's true. I could believe it either way. I can give you a way to evaluate that true claim, which is that when he said like, "Men want to ask to be held," that was played for a laugh. The fact that it's played for a laugh tells us that that is socially unacceptable, right, for men to want that ask. It's silly. Like, that's why we all laugh at that. Like, oh, men want to be held. That's ridiculous. And then everybody understandably laughs. And Trevor know it gets a joke out of it. Well, I want to point out a couple things about that. So he's saying, he specifically talks about a man telling another man hold me. And that's right. It was utilizing certain language to get that reaction a little more than because if a man said, you know, if he had said, oh, yeah, it's hard to just get a hug from another dude. I think a lot of us would have been like, I don't know, I get hugs from dudes. And it's not a, you know what I mean? Like, I think the language played up the difference. I do too. Because he's told a joke, right? I do too. He's told a joke. But I do think that the joke I'm trying to point out is the joke rests on a gender dynamic that doesn't play as well in the opposite. And I think that that is telling. I think that the gender dynamic in the opposite, if you try to tell a joke about how sometimes women just want to be held, that joke just I don't think falls. I don't think it plays right? I think you can write that joke. And that's kind of what I'm trying to point out. And I think that's a way linguistically to evaluate that truth claim, even if you can't personally identify with it. Agreed on that in terms of that being a difference. But I guess the part I'm saying I can't evaluate is while it's true that I do not feel like I can go to any man on the street and be like, hold me or even like my close friends. I wouldn't, you know, maybe, maybe a choice few, I guess I could use those wordings. That's all true. But I wouldn't ever say that I'm missing intimacy that I need that I'm not getting and that I'm compensating for by demanding sex from my wife. Like that part I just don't have any idea about. Right. But another way to think about it is, do you think socially just just looking out more broadly socially? Like do you think socially? Most men, like considering like most people are not college educated, most people are just regular, you know, Joe on the street. Do you think most people out there? Because I don't would feel comfortable asking their wives to just hold them. Think about like the plumber who just came over yesterday or like the average guy that you meet on the street, not like the sort of rarefied leftist circles that we swim in that are not most people. I don't think that most people would feel comfortable asking for that kind of intimacy. I don't actually think most people, most men would know how to ask for intimacy. And I think that's Trevor Noah's point. And I believe it outside of asking for sex. Okay. Important question. Key question here. Eli, is it the truth that, and this is why like I genuinely meant I didn't know how to evaluate it. I wasn't making a claim about it. So I think you're probably right. Tom, is it true that most men who aren't me, I guess, don't just occasionally sidle up small spoon to their wife. Go a small spoon action when they need it. And their wife's big spoon to do most men not just get a little small spoon. Now I think a lot of men are only physically intimate with their wives when they're having sex or try to absolutely. Okay. Then yes, that's absolutely. And I want to address that too. I think most men would not feel comfortable with that. And I think many women, not all, but I think many women would not feel comfortable with that expression of vulnerability either because we've all been socialized to want and expect certain things from the other sex. I think we have, we swim in a soup that tells us to some degree what is desirable, what is expected, what we should want and not want. Like, we don't build these things entirely of ourselves. We build these things as a result of living in a social culture. And I think that there are a lot of people be like, that's not, I don't like that. Like I'm not the big spoon. That's not for me. The small. And I don't think I'm or the women for women saying women like, no, I'm not, that's not, I'm not the big spoon. Like that's not my, my role here. Okay. Then yeah, they're missing out. Yeah. Have you guys see these posts actually go viral? The like, what is your Ick when it comes to a man? And it's like wearing shoes or eating a salad? Like wearing saying? Yes. Look up like what's your Ick online? Some of them are so fucking bananas. I remember one specifically was like, if he talks to his mom too much. Well, I think there can be, we can talk about that. Maybe that's actually fine. I don't look if I had your moms, I also would think that was I want to talk to you. Well, I do want to talk to Tom's mom, but it's more of a, yeah, it's more of a heckle than a conversation. I want you to try to talk to my mom for more than four minutes and see how it goes. That's what I would know. Yeah, no, I think, I think by the end of it, we would just be disagreeing on the definition of pair. One thing that occurs to me listening to that too that I think is really important is that if men don't have a language, a physical language to create in and of themselves with their partners to have intimacy, that is non-sexual. And I think from when you read about what women complain about, a very common complaint is he only touches me when he wants sex. You read that all the time. That is a very common complaint, right? Yeah. Well, but if what Trevor Noah is saying is true, and I think that it is, that may be because he doesn't have, and we have not created socially, a physical language to express a need for intimacy that is non-sexualized. Maybe. And I'm not giving everybody an out, but I'm saying that like there are reasons why that exists that are not always just that dude sucks. Sometimes it's that that dude sucks. Like I'll say that like that dude sucks. But like I think that socially, we have not done a good job of creating spaces and physical languages where we allow people an ability to say, I just want to be held. I don't think that that's something we're good at teaching men socially. I think we're good at teaching men like you should ask for sex. Like we're real good at that. We teach that constantly. But I don't think there's, I can't think of a single socially broadened example where we teach men how to ask for physical intimacy with a language that's vulnerable. Yeah. If anything, which and this is interesting because it's a positive thing. But like one of the things that we have been teaching men recently is like when not to ask for sex as opposed to getting your needs met, which I think is really interesting. Like I think the conversation has switched from, you know, take what you want, which is obviously horrendous for a variety of ways to don't ask for that thing you want. We know you just want this thing, but you're not allowed to ask for that. You're not allowed to push for that. You're not allowed to do this. And so instead of the conversation being about what men do want and what men should ask for, it becomes about what men shouldn't ask for. And therefore all asking becomes its own form of digression. I think that's partially why the crowd laughs at the discomfort is that like all desire for male intimacy has become taboo because society has shifted from it being something that is the law of the land to something that is dangerous or unwanted and that good men are the ones who keep their desire in check. And so the idea, right? And this is going to get a little like meta philosophical, but forgive me. The idea of male asking
is something that we societally now recognize is dangerous and scary. I think there are good reasons why we tell young men like, "Hey, just so you know, when you were asking for something or wanting something, you may be changing another person's feeling of safety, right?" And I think that's an important conversation to have. But I think the reason why when that ask is for intimacy is for silly is it sort of like a cartoon where a guy walks up and he's like, "Why are you gonna give you a dozen roses?" Because it's about the expectation, which is a different power dynamic versus the ask, which is a power dynamic that men don't usually ask for. - Yeah, you know, maybe this analogy won't work, but here's a weird thing that I think is true and I've seen it, I'm sure you guys have seen the same thing. Have you guys ever had a professional massage? - Yes. - Yeah, I get sports massage all the time. - Okay. - And it's pure agony the entire time. You're gonna talk about the ones that are like for pleasure. I don't know what those are. I've actually haven't gotten those. - No, so here's a true thing that I've discovered and I think is fairly typical. Men very often, when they are going to ask for a massage, they overwhelmingly in a professional environment ask for a massage from a woman because like we don't know how to fully separate the idea of being touched from sexuality. Being touched by a man, I don't give a shit personally, right? But I've always thought, and I'll tell you one of the first times this came up is that I went to a work thing and there was a spa day as a part of the work thing. And there were a couple of guys that were like, kind of annoyed or upset or uncomfortable because the only masseuse is available were men. - Yeah. - And they didn't wanna have a massage by a man. And what's embedded in there is not only a homophobia, right? So that's very obvious and upfront. But what's also hidden in there is the idea that we don't know how to be touched in a way that our brains can conceive of as an insect. - And sexualized way too much. - Yeah, absolutely. - Right, yeah. - And so if we're sexualizing all touch, how then do we ask for intimacy that is physical, that is divorced from sexuality? - Right. - From, okay, from other people or from our partners, is the part I'm kind of stuck on. - From our partners even. Like how do we ask for that if we've socially said the only way, 'cause like women are reporting, right? Women report, the only time we touch is me is when he wants sex, right? And men are saying like, hey, I don't know how to be touched without at least having a sexual element to it. - Mm-hmm. - And I think there's a connection there. We have not socially taught men how to be touched by other people in ways that is not taught to them to be sexualized, right? - Yeah. - Does that make any sense to you? I feel that personally. - Oh, I just genuinely can't get into the mindset of, so like I think everything you're saying is valid. I'm not disagreeing. I can't get into the mindset. I'm trying to figure out why. But like take the partners, the women who say, oh, he only touches me when we want sex, essentially. I've definitely heard of that, that's a common thing. I don't know, I wonder, what do you think is going on with the dudes? Do you think that they want other intimacy and don't know how to ask? Or I think that it's possible, and both cases could just be because of the way our society has just fucked us a lot of the ways. But I think that the men in those relationships, they know their partners want non-sexual touch and they just don't care enough to do that. And they don't actually want to do that. - Oh, yeah, I think that that's part of it. But what I'm saying is that I don't think that, and I think what the posit here is that, not all the time that we're asking for sex is sex really, subconsciously, we're asking for intimacy, and we don't know how to ask for intimacy that's non-sexual. - Oh, okay, so every time I'm asking for sex, I'm asking for sex. (laughing) - That's why I'm confused. (laughing) - But I think 100% of the time. - I think for you. - Yeah, so for you, Thomas, I think that's because you do have a physical language where you know how to ask for intimacy that's not sexual. But if you can understand that most men don't seem to know how to do that. - Right, men can't separate them. The only way they get intimacy is sex. - But that's what I don't know. Do you think that that's what it is, or do you think that they've been, it's like a step before that they've already, their expectations and their desires have been shaped by society to where they genuinely don't want like a non-sexual touch from their partners. I actually don't know what it is, you know? - I would posit, and Thomas, I'm interested in your thoughts on this. I would posit that for a lot of the men who are blocked in these ways, they are unaware of intimacy that's non-sexual. - Yeah, right, like it's just a foreign concept to them. - Well, where would they see it? Where is it reflected back to us? - Socially, it's not in our movies, it's not in our books, it's not in our television programming, it's oftentimes not in our households. Where would this come from? And again, like take yourself as like, like I have to do this all the time, like I recognize that like I live in this like leftist sort of bubble that's not real. - No, it's not leftist, I don't know where this came from, 'cause I've always just been a snuggly guy. My whole life, even when I was staunchly conservative, I've always been a snuggly guy, it has nothing to do with leftism. I don't know what, is that just like a-- - I think it's a family thing. - Oh, okay. - I think it is family to family because I remember growing up the first time I confronted the fact that like other kids thought it was not cool to be affectionate to your parents. Like I would hug and kiss my parents and tell them I love them. - You dated your dad, yeah, I remember. - And I dated my dad and I was so, I so clearly remember the first time I like told my dad, I loved him as I was leaving and someone was like, "I love you, Danny." And I was like, "What are you doing, man?" That's how foreign it was to me is that like, I genuinely did not understand what the joke was. - Hashtag parent goals. - It would be like someone being like, "So you just flush the toilet every time you shit?" I was like, "Yeah, that's how one." - Oh my god, you should have talked to our emotion. - You like to come out of that conversation with Ilo? Who doesn't do that currently? - We stopped cuddling boys earlier and we touched them less than we do girls. We're just less affectionate and physical ways. And then puberty hits and adolescence hits. And then the focus and shift of how we are touched changes. And so then where would we get this learning to learn how to ask for these important kinds of touch if we aren't teaching them socially and familiarly? - Yeah. - And I think that not everybody is guilty of that to the same extent, but I think that often many of us are guilty of that, like socially. And like I said, it's not part of our sort of zeitgeist. - Right. - One example of this is like, I don't know if you've seen the, it's called gay old photos. - No. - I haven't seen it by already. - I think it's an Instagram, but it's pretty funny and it's like, it's photos of people who are very obviously couples. And people being like, great pals, best friends. - Yeah. - Kissing on the neck. - Bye. - I've seen that, but also I actually am not sure some of that though, is that men were able to be more affectionate back in the day. And so some amount of it might actually be that they were good pals, right? - Yes, that's exactly what I was gonna point out. - Oh, right. - What happens a lot of the time is people will point out, but men used to be physically more intimate. Not these photos. People are kissing each other. - Oh, okay. (laughing) - I promise, you look at all those things are absolutely true. Like there's totally both dynamic. - All these photos are of homosexuals engaging in homosexuals sexuality, but that objection is really interesting because it's a homophobia in itself, not always, right? Obviously, 'cause it is true, but like the fact that when this gets brought up by one of the examples that I saw recently that I fucking loved was it was a medieval sketch of two women naked together in bed. And the caption was like, no one knows why they were two women naked together in bed in this caption. Perhaps they were friends. And someone took a picture of it and was like, wow, we really had a lot to go. So there's also that very interesting reinforcement that comes of like, look, that was for them before times, right? We gave men hugs when we saw them in the before times. (laughing) But now in modernity we've invented isolation. And that's another point that I wanted to talk about is I think we have isolated ourselves. And this is worth its own episode, which is the bad lessons men learned from me too. And as people who lived through me too, it's really interesting because our generation and no other generation will have had this has straddled the me to movement. We grew up in a pre-meet to time where sex was talked about and relationships were talked about in one way and now we're in the post me two times where we see those things being talked about in different ways. And we sort of had to navigate that. And I think it was pretty easy for us as liberal dudes, as Tom has said, to navigate those things. A lot of us were already living with that, although maybe not understanding the extent of the experience of the women in our lives had gone through these kinds of things. But like, we were pretty much on that page. But I also think that like one of the bad takeaways that straight men took from me too, and I'm not kidding about this. I think one of the bad takeaways that straight men took from me too is that you cannot touch anybody that we have become a non-touching society. And I think that contributes to this lack of physical intimacy, this lack of physical intimacy amongst each other. You know, one of the things that I remember being so transformational, and Thomas, you were a drama kid in high school? - Yeah, a little bit. - Yeah. So like one of the things that signified the drama kids that like set us aside from the rest of the school is that we were physically intimate with each other. Now to be clear, we were theater nerds. We were not having sex with each other. We were practicing lame is the musical, which I think we can all agree is the opposite of sex, but like, because we would often lay in the hallway outside of the drama room, touching each other, it was assumed that we were engaging in society.
some like large scale group orgies. And I remember that being a differentiated behavior between the drama kids and, you know, the cool kids are these kids, are that kids? I think it all just sort of feeds into that narrative. - It's like when you see, oh, God, I love it. You'll watch some movie like, what's the snapping one and the sharks and the jets again? - Tom Childhood. - West Side Story. (laughing) You watch something like a West Side Story and you see-- - It's the sharks and the turtles in that one, right? - Sharks and the turtles, yeah. - There's most of, like these classically trained, you know, ballet dancer actors pretending to be like a scary gang, you know? - Oh, yeah, it's the best. - They're like snugglers. - Oh, yeah. - And each other. - It's more than just that movie. You'll get like this boy, they're really snuggly for a scary gang of scary men. - Also true of Greece. - Yeah, if you watch Greece, (laughing) - Like, a lot of time. - Yeah, a lot of time. - Okay, okay. Maybe it was a different time. I don't know. I had that same experience. Like it was interesting to be, 'cause I was in both groups and fit in with nobody, really. I had the worst experience. But also good in some ways. I was in sports and in drama. And it was nice to be able to, I think some of the relaxed stuff around male contact was nice, 'cause it was like, you know, you could just kinda get a little snuggle gun and it wasn't gonna be like a huge thing. I had that experience too. But I also think, there's an interesting thing going on here that I'm like, it's hard. I don't know how exactly to talk about it. But I think it's even more than just talking about male sex drive or all that stuff, even just within your relationship. When you have a mismatch of sex drive, and that's gonna be the case, probably a majority of the time. Like the odds that two people are gonna be exactly the same amount of sex drive, I think is pretty low, you know? And having a mismatch and sex drive, it does create a really often challenging dynamic where you're made to feel guilty for wanting more sex than your partner wants. And then you can get in your head of like, oh shit, am I a pig? Am I being like whatever? And then you also don't wanna be the fucking men that is why I say they only touch them when they want sex. Like you don't want that. So it's a weird thing to try to like, okay, how do I judge based on reality and not just like my temperament and my partner's temperament? How do I judge like what's the okay amount of that or what's, you know? And so I think it can be challenging just to find ways to not feel like you were pushing too hard, all that stuff, you know? - And look, not to play the hits 'cause I'm gonna bring it back to monogamy being the problem. But if the only time you were allowed to eat was when your partner was hungry. (laughing) It would be an issue, right? Certainly in my fucking house, I mean, 19 snacks a day, if I had to stand there and wait for Anna to finish practicing the violin, I would be mad, be mad. Oh my God, you're looking at me like you want a snack again and I'd be like, just a real quick snack, if you could just go to a little ice cream. And so I think that's part of what the, what's it, Tom, put this in good words that don't take monogamy as slavery. I think that's why it's important to let your partner have snack. (laughing) - I want to offer another question in a similar vein though, but like if there is an inability to or are discomfort to ask for intimacy that's non-sexual or if you feel like asking for that wouldn't be well received, right? Then if sex is off the table for some reason, what holds you together as a couple intimately? Right, because like there may be times in our lives where due to injury or illness or age or whatever, sex is off the table and is no longer an option for a couple. And if that happens, if you don't have other ways to ask for and receive intimacy, how do you create an intimate space? And I think that that's a huge part of the epidemic of men that leave their wives and their wives get sick. We talked about the sun another episode that like when wives get like cancer and big sick, nurses and other people will say, "Hey, you know, just so you know, there's like a non-zero number of dudes that piece the fuck out." And I think the part of the reason that that happens is because many men have no language, no physical language to know how to connect in ways that are satisfying an intimate than are non-sexual. Right. They don't have a love and fear to mentally selfish to a degree that's way higher than women personally, because of this exact same dynamic you're talking about. I don't believe in that at all. I think that society holds on to them. I don't think that that's more selfish than women. I think that's weird. So is that you saying that there's an excuse for them leaving when their wives get cancer? The selfishness would be them leaving. Like it doesn't matter if they're unhappy for whatever reason. It's selfish to do. I'm responding to your, I don't think men are inherently more selfish than women. I don't think that's a true thing at all. I think there's no truth to that is what I want to say. I don't think biologically, I think in our society, male desires and wants are prioritized in a way that women's are. And so-- Oh, sure. And so she's able-- No, that's what I was going to say is I think, I think, societally, the things that men are allowed to do and continue to function within society are significantly worse. Right, like, you know, how many famous men do we know of who like abandoned their families versus any time a woman makes any choice that isn't directly about her kids? It's a lifetime movie. Right, I would agree with that. I think that's a social-- That's why I'm not worried about it, yeah. No, that's okay. I think that's a huge factor in what makes that happen. I think men there, they don't have a physical language to make this ask. I think that women have very infrequently had this ask. Are jutes not snugly with the science? No, dude, read women's complaints, dudes are not snugly, dude. What? Dude, hey, hey, let me tell you, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, hey, no, I'm dudes. I'm dudes. Turn the podcast up. Get out of here. Listen, it's fine. Get out of here. No, you can never listen again. Are we not snugly dudes? [LAUGHTER] Yeah, we're now the Jordan Peterson YouTube channel. It's only men. No, no, no. It's only men. Oh, god. No, I don't want that. Does this podcast smell worse? [LAUGHTER] I guess smells worse for some reason. What? Yeah, to come on, get on it, men. Why are you not snugly? I don't understand that. It's always come so naturally to me. And I actually don't know why, because as much as you speculate, it could be family-based, I don't think my siblings are the same ways. I don't-- it might just be a weird, dispossitional thing that is random. I don't know. I've always been snugly. Was your mama cuddler? My mom was, yes. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. My siblings are not. It's not like that affected us all the same. I think an individual's need for a personal touch is super-- like it varies person by person by person. My brother doesn't seem to need or want physical touch. I never see him being physical with his wife. I've never seen. He's just not a snugly kind of person. What? OK, there you go. But that was the problem I was having. I don't know if that's what dudes are doing. Because let's say that's your brother or anybody. And they just don't really need or feel like they want that kind of touch. Then it would probably be true for them that whenever they initiate touch with their partners, it would be for sex, like if they'd assuming they like sex. So that's an interesting-- I don't know which thing is going on there. Part of me wonders if part of that is why would I see that? So that touching may not be visible to me. But it may be happening plenty behind closed doors, right? Because I have literally no idea. So I want to actually kind of take that back. Because it's one of those-- you have no idea what's going on in someone's home towards you. Yeah. Get snuggly. Hey. Get it there, man. Yeah, get snuggly. Conclusion? Get snuggly. Yeah, that's nice. [MUSIC - "DEAR O' DAD"] Anyways, gentlemen, before we go, I asked my new girl to meet me at the gym, but she never showed up. So I guess we're not going to work out. [BEEPING] [LAUGHTER] I like that one. That was good. Are you guys ready for Disney World? Yes. I am ready to hear you talk about Disney World. For those of you who follow my wife on social media, we took Max to his first way. We did the Orlando live show this past week. And we took Max to Disney World and Sea World for the first time. And it was so wonderful. Let me say this. Let me say this. Disney World fucking rules. The price doesn't rule. It sucks. The price is-- The price is three times worse than you think it's going to be. You're like, here we go. It's so much money to go to the world of Disney that it's embarrassing to tell other people. There used to be like, well, we're taking the kids to Disney this year. I would never tell someone that I did not know extremely well that I went to Disney World. Because my first-- You're not paying for this. You're, yeah, that's what you get. If anyone says to me they went to Disney World, I'd be like, oh, so you're fucking rich. Huh, that's the only thing I can possibly think about is that if someone says they manage to make it through those mouse gates, they have blood diamonds. That is the only thing that I can think. Or they've bankrupted their family, right? Like if the person saying it is not now inside a barrel, which they wear full time, I have no way of knowing. I believe that they must be a multi-millionaire. But we managed it. We managed it. We made it to Disney. And it was awesome. Everything about it was awesome. Max had such a wonderful time. He went all the rides. Lucinda came with us. And our friend Kelly came with us. And they did a great job of keeping him busy. By the way, it's also amazing for kids with special needs like Max, because they have like all these quiet areas. Yeah, they're trained up on it. It's great. Yeah. We didn't utilize this service. But if you can't afford it,
before to do like lightning lane or Jeannie pass or fuck your dad or whatever the fuck they're talking about. They have like a my kid is special hotline you can call and they will give you a time and they'll walk your kid in the back so you don't have to wait on lines and stuff. Oh nice. It's oh yeah. Max was fine waiting on the lines that he did wait on and he was happy to do what it is that he needed to he didn't need those services but they are very upfront about all that. It's so nice because back in the back in our time the solution was literally this is not a fucking joke. The solution of oh hey that mascot or something is making a kid a little scared. Fucking Rob is facing the mascot. It's so it's sad really and it's so nice that now even in the hell hole that is Florida apparently they they're at least like I and before to Santa's probably outlaws it. I'm sure he'll outlaws sure yeah next year he'll be like the rub the mascot law will be put to place. There's a whole bunch of weirdos lining up to be mascots now like kids are gonna rub me. So since my acquaintance with the full Smith family obviously I've always known Thomas but since I've become more intimate with the Smith family that sounds like I fuck your kids. I'm sorry I don't fuck his kids. Since I started to know about Arlo's allergy journey I sort of have become much more aware about the steps that are taken to like make those people safe and Disney is taking some of those and I thought it was really cool like they have a bunch of peanut free areas and the food thing. I have been I saw awesome I'm not gonna go down this rabbit hole but I had this thought like three months ago and I think about it all the time which is I actually don't know why peanuts are publicly available. Like I understand why your restaurant would be able to order them or like someone would be able to special order them but I don't understand why peanuts are available in public places at this point. Like if there was a poison for just Rick I don't think they would sell it with the sandwiches at the airport. Neither here nor there. It was awesome. All these amazing things but here's a story I want to tell you guys I want to leave you with this amazing thing. So Max speaks very very very little and so one of the things that happens quite a bit is that we will be talking we'll ask Max how something was. Did you like that or are you doing that? What do you think about that? Oh not cool and he just fucking doesn't talk to us and that's fine. That's fine but a way we keep ourselves amused when that happens is we will often turn to each other and go he'll never tell right and so we are driving out of Disney right and I say Max what was your favorite part of Disney and he goes he inevitable. That's awesome. It was the perfect close to accidentally. You made it happen though you created a meme. I love it. Now he won't tell you because you created yeah you joked that he wouldn't tell you it's a tragedy. Yeah. It's a great tragedy but yeah it was so wonderful and thanks to all the friends and everyone who came out to the Orlando show. How long were you guys there? We got in Wednesday so we were there Thursday Friday Saturday was the show and then we left on Sunday. I'll tell you one of the hardest things about you know this awful awful ongoing by the way thing that I'm in is we just don't we don't have the ability to like hey let's go to let's go on a trip. Oh yeah you can't do it. No time can't afford it. No time can't afford it for everything and it's like we have been the day you know that's the stupid campaign they did right. It was like go Disney like for all the ad campaign or whatever like they would have the football players say it the Super Bowl like and then I think they would pay them money promotionally but that's real though now because like there is nothing more fun than taking your little kid who loses their mind you know because they love this stuff so much to Disneyland and I just like the day that I can finally fucking take the family on a trip ever again I don't know when that's going to fucking be but like I cannot wait I'm I'm going to be literally the Super Bowl winner this time. Just talking to the crying in all the pictures. So I see your dad sobbing he was happy he was just he would really he was excited. Let's be real there's a lot of those times so. Why is your mom rubbing a mascot on him he needed to toughen up it was a whole thing. Did you stay at Disney the whole time? No no we stayed at a place nearby. Yeah talk about expensive. We don't have that many patrons stuff. Yeah I don't I've never I've been since I was a I was a one park one I'm I'm at a one park one day level of income Tom. It's that it used to be like normal amounts of money. It used to be I you know fucking 50 bucks for a ticket you know like yeah. No it used to be a thing that families could afford to do once a year the goal of that park and it's interesting because they're in conversation about it but like the goal of that park was you can take your family to Disney once a year as one of your vacations and hyper capitalism has just transformed it now. Well they can't keep up with the pricing to make up for the fact that wages are nothing across the whole economy. So it might not even be Disney's fault it might be like yeah no like we can't only go down so much in price for the you know awful fucking salaries that we're apparently you know we're okay within this country. Want to meet sexy delves in your area email the
[email protected] or better yet send us a message on patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes and if you need more podcasts you can find Tom on cognitive dissonance. Tom is on series anchories only and Eli on God awful movies and all the puzzle in the thunderstorm shows. Dearolddads is edited and produced by my favorite Delft Tom Smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission. This podcast is production of Daddy Issues LLC copyright 2022 all rights reserved. Fuck you Tom. How long have you ever speak about you ever speak about johns to her like that in my presence again you son of a bitch.
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