91. Do You Savor or Gobble?

(dramatic music) - The average elementary school student would have nifed the teacher. - I'm Angela Duckworth. - I'm Steven Dubner. - And you're listening to no stupid questions. - Today on the show, what is the difference between a person who sabers and someone who devours? - This makes me even more suspicious of the Marshmallow theory, because-- - 'Cause you're thinking I win my one Marshmallow girl. Obviously. (upbeat music) - Angela, I have a question for which there is certainly no right answer. - Oh, my favorite kind of question. - The question is as follows. When you get something new and/or valuable or just desirable, are you personally more inclined to treasure it and save it for special occasions and maybe try to preserve it, keep it as new as possible? Or are you so in love with a thing that you just want to use it as much as possible right away? And then depending on which answer you give, I want to know what that answer might say about a given person. - I am a complete use it right away person. - I knew it. I think there are many ways in which you and I are alike or alike-ish. - Yes. - And this is one where I suspected that we were quite not alike. - You are a saver? - A saver is a very generous word. A protector, a preserver, a consumption delayer. - Yeah, I don't know whether this comes from growing up in a family where resources were fairly limited but also growing up in a family where both parents were depression-era parents and that creates a whole fear of scarcity. But I also like things to be kept in good shape. Like I want them to appear and feel fresh and new. I think it's an enduring fear of original sin in a way. - What? You're gonna go back to Adam and Eve? (laughing) - Well, when you learn about original sin as a young Catholic boy, which I was before I became a Jewish man, literally we were taught the reason we're here in church today is because Adam ate the apple. Which by the way, wasn't an apple. Do we all know that? - Oh, I didn't know that. - No, there was no apple. - Was that fake news? - I would say it was fake news. If you look at Genesis, here's a bit in English. When the woman, that's Eve, saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom. She took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband and he ate. As for the type of fruit, it's just described as fruit of the tree. So these days in modern Hebrew, the word for apple is tapua. But in biblical times, tapua was just a word for generic fruit. And I'm pretty sure that apples were not native to the land of Eden. - Oh, so you're putting two and two together and you're saying in conclusion, probably not an apple. - Well, I'm reading the people who put two and two together. - Okay. - But whatever the fruit was, the idea is that had that original sin not been committed, then we would have all been brought into the world perfect and in paradise and so on and so on and so on. So that's a weird concept to learn, I think, as a child, which is to say that you are born with a mark. You're kind of born broken. And speaking of apple, the last time I bought an iPhone, which was maybe three years ago, I dropped it the day I bought it, cracked the screen. - Oh, it's making me so sad. - But you know, well, this is a whole other conversation, but why would you design a device that is obviously one of the most desirable devices in the world and make it so easy to break out of the box that you have to buy this aftermarket protector. - Yeah, I know. - It'd be like buying a car and saying, put your seat belts in when you get home, okay? In any case, I have learned to live with that crack for a few years now. And for me, it's a bit of an exercise in trying to live with imperfect or broken things because I know that is not my nature. And I've been pretty successful, I have to say. Okay, I have so much to unpack here, but the first thing I want to unpack is, why are we in the Garden of Eden? Like what's the connection between Adam and Eve and original sin and consuming? - My thinking is that when you learn and embrace as a child, the concept of original sin, this notion that damage is inherent to the human condition and that your purpose then is to correct that damage or address it through penitents or good deeds, et cetera, et cetera. It does give you the impression that if only you could flip the script or go back in time and take the thing that was perfect and not mess it up, then you'd be better off. - I see, yeah. I think it's possible that if you grow up and you think like don't screw things up that are perfect and also maybe when in doubt don't consume, maybe there's also that there. - Oh yeah. - That makes some sense. - I love how kind you are, even in the deepest of your skepticism. Do you know who Moberg was by any chance? - No. - He was a professional baseball player, super smart, he got a law degree at Columbia in a couple years by doing his work during the off season of baseball and then he became a spy for the US during World War II for the USS, the precursor of the CIA. Anyway, one of his obsessions was newspapers. He read many papers every day in several languages, often reading in a baseball dugout, but if someone else opened any of those newspapers first just to take a look, he couldn't read it. It was spoiled to him. - What? It sounds like a little OCPD obsessive compulsive personality disorder. - What can I tell you? I identify with Moberg in that regard and you don't, I assume. - What? - No, not at all. - There is this sort of spoiled versus unspoiled. What about this? What about plastic slip covers on furniture? What's your position on that? Well, having grown up with many, many relatives and neighbors who like the whole house is laminated. I mean, maybe that's why I don't like to preserve things. I thought it was so dumb. I was like, what? In fact, a friend who shall remain nameless but you know who you are. I remember going to their house. This is a contemporary of mine. This isn't even like an auntie or an uncle or an old neighbor down the street. It's like a friend. Everything is slip covered. The remote control is wrapped in saran wrap and I was like, really? - Now does this person have any characteristics that you would connect to that preservation appetite? - I mean, there are Asians. A lot of my relatives, I'm not saying that only Asians, you know, saran wrap, there are remote controls. Many, many cultures also have these practices. - I can vouch for that, by the way. - And maybe they're frugal. Maybe there's sort of like you don't have a lot and you really want to preserve it. But have you ever sat on a couch in the summer with your thighs, you know that suction sound when you get up and your thighs are all like red and splotchy 'cause you've been adhered to the plastic slip covers? I have to say, I don't think it's a good look. - I remember the first time I sat on one when I was little and I slid a little bit and I thought it was awesome because you know, mostly couches you just settle in and this was like a little bit of a ride. - Slip and slide. But let me ask you look, this is not about me and my weird protective preservationist collection tendencies. What this is about is, well, first of all, you are the consumer, you want to consume it immediately. What do you and what does your field of psychology have to say about this notion, anticipation of the consumption of something and delaying the consumption of something? - Well, as you know, Stephen, there's a lot of research over the last say 60 years on delay of gratification, interestingly though, this research is all about delaying gratification when the right choice, as it were, is to delay gratification. This plays out in the famous Marshmallow task where four-year-old children are given the following choice. Two Marshmallows later or one Marshmallow now. In fact, this experiment requires that you ask the child which they would really prefer and they only keep going with the experiment if the child says I would really prefer to have two later. - Now pardon the interruption. If you don't mind, I just have to ask you this. The importance of the Marshmallow study or studies is that a delayed gratification was shown to be correlated at least with better outcomes in life and the lesson that I have always taken away from that is children who are able to delay gratification for a bigger payout later will apply that same tendency to a lot of things like education and savings and taking care of your body, being willing to invest in exercise. Let's say to pay off for the better health later and so on. And so if that finding is true, you are what, an anomaly to some degree because you have told us that you are the consumer right away person. Would you have eaten the single Marshmallow or would you have waited for the two later? - Well, that's exactly my point, Stephen. In the Marshmallow task, it's super clear that you really, really, really unambiguously want to delay. And the question is, How many seconds can this four year old wait? So it's not one of those like, oh, some people prefer to have their dessert after dinner and some people prefer to have it before dinner. It's different from that. I do think though there's another concept from psychological science called anticipatory utility. - Ooh. - It's actually more from economics. - It makes me think of Bentham. - Right. - I mean, I think of Bentham when we think about utility generally because utility is a great concept and economists have their way of looking at it. I think psychologists look at it a bit differently though, yes? - You know, psychologists don't use the term utility nearly as much, although the gap between psychology and economics is getting smaller and smaller. - Shrinking every day before our eyes. - You know, half the time I hang out with economists and half the time I hang out with psychologists. I am not the cause of the shrinking of the gap. I am just a symptom of the shrinking of the gap. But utility, of course, in economics is not super well defined really. Roughly you could say it's happiness, right? It's often kind of just defined as that, which an individual agent or an individual is trying to maximize and we can understand a decision that an individual makes as one which we assume under classical economic theory to be maximizing their utility. So minimizing their costs and maximizing their benefits. Now, what anticipatory utility is is a much newer concept because, like you said, the idea of utility goes all the way back to Bentham, if not earlier. - Or to the Garden of Eden, perhaps. I don't think it's in the Old Testament, but maybe it was implied. George Lowenstein is a behavioral economist and he wrote this paper in the 80s about anticipatory utility, the novel idea, was that we don't only want to think about your utility from what you're consuming at the moment, but also the anticipation of consuming something in the future can provide utility today. It's like the future version of savoring. It's like the vacation I haven't had yet, which is gonna be amazing. And then once I'm actually there with my family, it's like, ooh, can't wait till the next vacation. - And maybe it's terrible, but maybe it's just good. But the point is that you can kind of get a little bit of present utility out of what you expect to happen in the future. So you could say I'm not very good at anticipatory utility. If I had to rack my brain for any time in which I did experience anticipatory utility, it wasn't even my own volition. So in, I think it was fifth grade on what the Woodquest Elementary School in Cherial, New Jersey. And we had a spelling test every week and to incentivize us, the prize was that if you got a perfect score, then you would get a slice of pizza at Vito's pizza. And maybe it was like you had to get a month of perfect score, whatever it was. I remember walking up to my teacher's desk and saying, hey, I'm caching in. I want my Vito's pizza. And I remember my teacher would say to me like each week, not this week, next week. - What the heck? - So the whole year, and I was thinking like, is this compound interest? Do I get five pizza pies? - Seriously. - But it turns out that at the end of the year, the weather is warm, we're just about to get out for summer. This teacher made good and took us to Vito's pizza and we got exactly one slice. But I did remember thinking that it was a pretty good trick because I had anticipatory utility for the fall, the winter, and the spring. - Okay, first of all, I don't think it's a good trick. The average elementary school student would have nifed the teacher. - It would be suing. - Yeah, absolutely. (laughing) - I wasn't very litigious or violent. - Didn't Roland Fryer do work like this about 10, 12 years ago where they were trying to incentivize students basically to do better with different kinds of payout, some were maybe small amounts of cash. - Cell phone minutes. - Exactly. And didn't they find that unless the accomplishment and the reward were fairly closely tied in time that most people just didn't improve at all? - So this is researched by Roland Fryer and Woldoby. They've done lots of experiments on trying to understand whether and how incentives could improve academic performance. And the finding of the study that you're referring to is that you can incentivize as they put at the inputs, but you can't incentivize the outputs. In other words, say, for example, you want a kid to do better in school. If you say, "Hey, at the end of the year, if you get A's, I'll give you $500," that ends up being not very effective. But if you incentivize behaviors all along the way, like today, if you read this book, I'll give you a dollar. It's like, great. Now, today, if you pay attention to class, I'll give you another dollar that is more effective, relatively. The question is, is it that you can't incentivize young people with delayed rewards? This goes back to delayed gratification and the reason, by the way, delayed gratification is hard for everyone, not just for your old, is that there is something about a reward being removed in time that kind of bleaches its power. It's sort of like, "Oh, I get a piece of pizza today. Yay. Oh, I get a piece of pizza in a week." So that could be that you can't incentivize outputs because they're delayed in time. - It's so interesting because if you extend this discussion into the political realm, this does make me think about some policy questions. I heard recently someone talking about the US, especially the Federal Reserve efforts to address inflation. And the argument was everything that the macro economists are able to do to address inflation, that's a long-term solution. And people are hurting in the short run because, yes, it may be true that, let's say, your primary goal is to drive down the price of gasoline and groceries and maybe even housing by X percent. And that's going to be hard to do in the short term. You just start to say, well, it's not going to do it in the short term. So that's abandoned the long-term thinking. And that, I think, is what we often do in policy making in this country. When you look at healthcare, education, economic stuff, Washington, I feel, has gotten cynical to the point where this hoarding versus using question is unfortunately much more relevant than I wish it were. - I think we can mine the delay of gratification, research here for some useful prescriptive insights. So in the marshmallow task, which we've already established is not exactly the same thing as anticipatory utility because you're just waiting for two things instead of one. Nevertheless, I think if you ask the question, who are the children who are able to delay gratification? And what makes them different from the children who are going to gobble one marshmallow right away? And I want to say that there are debates about this all the way up into right now and ongoing, about whether the marshmallow task really measures the ability to delay gratification or is it just an index of socioeconomic status or how much chaos is going on? - Or marshmallow appetite, generally. - No, they've actually ruled that out. - Because everybody loves marshmallows? - Well, no, the way you do this task actually is that you give a selection of treats to kids and so you have them pick their favorite treat. - I see. - And actually when I did this 'cause I worked with Walter Michelle and I replicated this experiment. Fun fact, marshmallows were not the most popular. It was Oreos, but I digress. The research that has been done over the last couple of decades is that interestingly, the trick to delaying gratification is to bring the gratification forward in time. Say, Steven, I decide to eat an apple and go for a run both things that I've done today. You could say, well, are you doing it because in 20 years it's gonna be slightly more likely that you will be living a healthy and long life? Like am I basically doing something because of delay of gratification? Or have I found ways to enjoy crispy apples and even enjoy my run? Have I brought gratification forward in time? And the answer is that I think most people, including me, and including those children actually in the experiment that we were describing, find ways to either have anticipatory utility or for eating an exercise. Sometimes it's like part of your identity and that's immediately rewarding. We might find ways to enjoy exercise because we listen to a great podcast or Zumba or something that you really like. So I think that from a policy perspective, we're not wrong to wanna think about policies that are good for all of us in the long term future. But if you want people to stay for retirement, if you want people to eat healthy, if you want embargoes to work, they have to actually not only work because of something that's gonna happen in the future. We do need to bridge time and all people, not just for your old, need to experience some utility today for them to really be motivated to do something. Still to come on, no stupid questions. Stephen and Angela break down the psychology of binge watching, like all cycles where you get some utility and then it's over, but you need your fix again. You go and you watch the next episode of Game of Thrones. Before we return to Stephen and Angela's conversation about anticipatory utility and delay of gratification, let's hear some of your thoughts on the topic. We ask for your support. listeners to send us voice memos about their experiences as users or preservers. Here's what you said. Hi Steven and Angela this is Jimmy. While I've meled a lot with age as a young man I was a hardcore preserver. Like to the point where it got in my way. I think it's because I relish the anticipation so much of something and feared being let down after enjoying it. So for example I worked four hour shifts in a call center and we could take our 15-minute break pretty much whenever we wanted. Well the idea of the break was so sweet to me that I would push it back and push it back to the point where a lot of times I just didn't even take it at all. But anyway I love NSQ and I listened to it now the day it drops so I've grown. This is John from sunny Portland Oregon calling to represent team one Marshmello now give me give me give me this story comes from when I was in third grade at Catholic school and one of our more sadistic teachers gave us blow pops one afternoon and announced that we had head over to the chapel and we couldn't touch them we had to keep them at our hip the entire time and it took me about 20 minutes to realize that if I cramed down I could lick the lollipop and adhere to the letter of the law if not the spirit of it. I guess my teacher wasn't so much for technicalities because she took my lollipop right there front of everybody with maximum shame. Anyway my whole life had definitely struggled with all sorts of things that require future planning and things like that but I will say therapy and drugs and especially going to school for psychology has been really insightful for how my brain works anyway just a shout out for the intellectual root of self-knowledge thanks. I think I'm the kind of person who devours things when I buy anything I want to test it straight away and I think it comes from the fact that my grandma whenever we get her something for her birthday or for Christmas she would always put it at the end of her wardrobe and it always made me wonder why is she doing this why is she putting this off and you know also thinking somewhere they're at the back of my head that she doesn't have long life to live and she should be using all these things and that also makes me realize that we can all die the next day and why would be safe things for later if we can just use it and enjoy it while we have them. That was respectively Jimmy LaPone, John Hawkins Gordon and Veronica a damn check thanks to them and to everyone who sent us their thoughts. Now back to Stephen and Angela's conversation about the psychology of delaying consumption versus using things immediately. I think an obvious step back to take here in this conversation is when we talk about acquiring something and then using it or not using it the whole question of course revolves around what the thing is and how much you need it and maybe even how many of them there are I think about this with shoes like I don't know about you I can only wear one pair of shoes at one time and I think most people right fair assumption limited number of feet and yet I do know that most Americans own a lot of shoes. I thought you were gonna say most women then I was gonna cancel you. Here's a survey the average American man owns how many pairs would you guess? Oh my gosh I used to ask this in my stats class because then I could show them distributions. I think I'll say 11. Oh you are good 12. See this is because I've collected data on this room like 10 stats classes over 10 years. Alright then American woman. Women I'm gonna go with like 25 or something. That's really good yeah from this one survey I'm not saying this is perfect science the average American woman owns a whopping 27 pairs so anyway the purchase of a pair of shoes we could put under the general category of material and materialism right those are physical things that we acquire then we decide how and how much we're going to use them. I believe that your late friend and colleague Mike Cheek Semahai he distinguished between these two types of materialism one that he called terminal materialism which is wanting something for its own sake or maybe to make other people think that we're interesting or important or something like that but then a totally different type what he called instrumental materialism and that's the case when the object is a bridge to another person or another feeling and when I read that I thought oh gosh yeah that's my kind of materialism like I don't care so much about stuff except for the stuff that I really need or need to use in a utilitarian fashion. It's not an end in itself. Yeah and I have to say when it comes to gift giving if you can give a gift that has that connection for someone so my wife Ellen she's given me a couple of gifts that are just so good because they're thoughtful but also what they do is as Cheek Semahai said they form a bridge to another person or another feeling I'd spend a little time speaking with the artist Ai Wei Wei. I love Ai Wei Wei's work. He's a really smart, thoughtful, deeply variegated and interesting artist and human. She knew I came away from that encounter just being really deeply interested in the way he thinks about the world. He had done this one big project where he had porcelain makers in this town in China that was known for making porcelain for many many many many years. He commissioned them to make these little porcelain sunflower seeds that look like real sunflower seeds and they must have made it might have been in the millions at least in the many many many thousands and there was an exhibit. I want to say it was at the Tate in London but it was basically this massive sandbox full of these sunflower seeds that was meant to represent a bunch of different things including the porcelain industry in China. So anyway, Ellen went online. They were very very very hard to buy these little seeds but there were some stray ones that got out somehow. What? I hope they weren't stolen although I do know at the museum that people would routinely take some and put them in their pocket. But I'd like to think that the ones that she got hold of were legitimately produced and legitimately for sale. Not on the black market. She bought me maybe 50 of them. What? And then she also got a little Chinese made bowl that was found from maybe a hundred or 120 years ago in a famous ish shipwreck. It was a ship that I want to say was called the tech sing and so the gift was this little beautiful bowl with these beautiful little sunflower seeds and it just sits on my desk and I have to tell you every time I sit down at my desk I spend all this time in reverie just connecting to that history and the feeling and the thoughtfulness of your wife. You know I realize maybe one reason I brought this question to you today is because for some strange reason it fascinates me not just the preserving of material things but also collecting the instinct to collect. I've always been interested in which is terminal materialism I think in the Cheek semi high classification right having things for their own sake I've never understood people collecting things. Are you a collector? Do you have more than a bowl of sunflower seeds on your desk? There are not a lot of things that I truly collect now I did as a kid I collected stamps as a kid quite aggressively but I sold my stamp collection after my freshman year of college to buy Christmas presents for my siblings. No. Honestly I've regretted it ever since. I want to know how much you got for your stamp collection. $120. I mean this was a long time ago. How much did you buy those stamps for? So here's the thing this is why I would argue it was more instrumental materialism than terminal because you know I was the youngest in a big family and we had a lot of just older people around family friends and then my siblings and so on and somehow I became the end of this funnel into which people would throw their stamps. I grew up in a very rural area of upstate New York and there were people there especially older people from all over there were neighbors from Hungary and Germany and people with ties to Britain and whenever they would get stamps from people back in their home countries they would deliver them to me and I should say therefore my stamp collection was not extremely high quality because first of all most of my stamps were not mint they were postmark and licked but yeah the impulse was so so so strong and now I guess I mostly collect podcast episodes how about you oh my gosh is there a word for the opposite of a hoarder I think that would be a purger I would be a purger like I don't have anything I don't hold on to books I'm not a collector I don't know if this is related to not feeling a lot of anticipatory utility but I don't get a lot of pleasure out of stuff now what about binging you mean like binging food or binging television shows both like let's say you get a bounty what about did you do Halloween when you were kid yeah of course I took a treated I would come back with my pillow case which of course many children learn is a very sturdy container for Halloween candy And then I pretty much would be through the entire thing by end of November. I remember that my sister in particular was very good at saving. We also got allowance from my parents and there was a 7/11 not too far from where we lived and so we would get to spend our dollar at the 7/11 and my sister would think really hard about what you wanted and typically would come away having bought nothing. She's going to become a doctor. She did and I always spent my money. I was not a saver. This makes me even more suspicious of the marshmallow theory because you're thinking I win my one marshmallow girl obviously. Correct. You know I don't know that I would have been a two marshmallow girl. I can't say but I will also say that maybe Stephen we can brand this as being mindful. Maybe you could just say wow that Angela Duckworth she sure does live in the present. That is a really nice rebranding. That's just marketing. Now what about a TV show? You discover a TV show you love. You watch the first one or two episodes. You love love love it. There are six seasons. How long do those six seasons last you? Well I'm not as extreme as some people who I think watch like an entire season in a night. In fact for me I think the most I've ever watched of like Game of Thrones or the Marvelous Mrs. Macyl was two episodes in a row. I kind of came late to the Game of Thrones cultural phenomenon and I consumed it every night only one but every night so I guess that's a kind of binging like a kind of measured binging. Although compared to the average let's say Netflix binger I think you're on the low scale. I'm looking at a piece from John Koblin in the New York Times in 2016. He writes about an analysis of how Netflix customers are binging and what types of shows are binged faster. It turns out that the genres that are most often really binge and I mean really fast. This would be where a user would finish a season of a show in about four days and watch about two and a half hours each day. Those genres were horror thrillers and sci-fi. I think that makes sense especially horror and thrillers because why do you say well suspense you want to know what happens next. That's an interesting argument. You could argue that binge watching is the antithesis of anticipatory utility right you're not husbanding your consumption for later you're just going for it and you can see on one hand that you're squandering anticipatory utility but the reason I think people binge watch things is first of all suspense and second of all that Netflix serves you up the next thing without you even moving a muscle and then finally because like all cycles where you kind of get some utility or some enjoyment and then it's over. This is actually also what perhaps leads to addiction. You need your fix again. You go and you watch the next episode of Game of Thrones and I do think that the powers that be that decided to release seasons not once a week like they were when we were growing up. You didn't have to regulate your own consumption because you would watch it over eight weeks with the rest of America. Yeah. I do think they're capitalizing on this human desire to just keep upping the fix. If you want to be depressed about our ability to succumb to that I think of a book from maybe 30 years ago by Neil Postman called amusing ourselves to death which wasn't about binge watching because it didn't exist but it was about an engagement with media or entertainment but the point is if watching TV is not the most intellectually and physiologically and socially stimulating thing that one can do which we could probably agree on and if it becomes easier and easier and easier to do more of this thing then that's probably not so good but it may also be that we're in the early days and people kind of feel a reaction to it or against it and start to adapt. Well I'll say this. I'm a little worried about these statistics about the number of hours that your typical American is spending passively consuming quote-unquote media on screens. It could be TikTok videos. It could be social media. I do think it's like that philosophy problem like what would happen if people were plugged into pleasure machines. It's one of those things that people thought about before there really were pleasure machines that you could plug yourself into and when I flip through you know there's a TV show on about home improvement. There's another one on where you can roast your own chicken and then you could watch somebody taking an adventure in Bora Bora also just how I carry as it is. Like most people who watch those shows are not going to improve their own house. They're not going to make their own roast chicken. They're certainly not going to go to Bora Bora. So I don't want to sound reactionary but I kind of feel like oh my god spending hours and hours and hours a day watching other people live life. That's not so great. Okay. Tangent roasting chicken. Can I tell you what I did this week for the first time ever? Yeah of course I want to know. I'm very interested in roast chickens. I discovered after living in our current apartment for about six years that the oven that we own came with a rotisserie attachment that rotates the chicken inside like at the supermarket. Oh yeah. Wait what? It is a contraption that comes in pieces and that's why I never noticed it. I was cleaning out a drawer and I found all these it looks like a torture machine that's unassembled which is essentially what it is for the chicken at least. And how did it work? Was it amazing? I have to say the preparation and cleanup is not worth it. It's definitely not worth it other than for kicks but it was a lot of kicks. Well hopefully you didn't have too much anticipatory disutility. I did not nor am I hoarding chickens to do this for what a relief. Although you know what I take it back. I did buy two more chickens put them in the freezer so the next time that the urge to rotisserie strikes I'm ready to go. Basically instead of having one chicken today you're having two chickens tomorrow well done Stephen. I'm very proud of you. Coming up after the break a fact check of today's conversation. And now here's a fact check of today's conversation. In the first half of the show Stephen says that Tapua the modern Hebrew word for apple was just a generic term for fruit in biblical times. This is true however the word doesn't appear anywhere in Genesis. Instead the Hebrew term paris another term for fruit is used. Still it's not clear what exactly the word refers to. Apples would not have been available in the Garden of Eden. Leaving archaeologists and biblical scholars believe that the gardens description in Genesis reflects a location in southern Mesopotamia. Now Iraq and the very first apple can be traced back to Kazakhstan which is more than a thousand miles away. Later Stephen shares that his wife Ellen gave him a collection of porcelain sunflower seeds designed by the artist and political activist Iwayway. He says that the original installation included thousands possibly millions of seeds. In fact in 2010 100 million seeds were piled in the turbine hall of the Tate modern in London. Initially visitors were able to play in the seed pit and certainly pocketed pieces of porcelain. However it was soon discovered that interacting with the seeds created a dust that could be dangerous to inhale and the installation was roped off. After the exhibit ended many of the seeds were sold at a Sotheby's auction and it still appears possible to purchase them if you're up for the challenge of sorting the originals from the replicas. Finally Angela describes the quote philosophical problem of being plugged into a pleasure machine. There are several canonical references that fit this description but Angela was likely thinking of the thought experiment described by American philosopher Robert Nozik and his 1974 book Anarchy, State and Utopia. In the book humans have the choice to experience reality as it exists or to live forever in a pleasant simulation. Nozik posited that most people would choose not to plug into the pleasure machine. He died in 2002. Five years before Netflix began its streaming services. That's it for the fact check. No Stupid Questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network. All our shows are produced by Renbud Radio. No Stupid Questions is produced by me, Rebecca Lee Douglas. This show was mixed by Eleanor Osborne. Our theme song is and she was by talking heads. Special thanks to David Byrne and Horner Chappell Music. To learn more or to read episode transcripts visit Freakonomics.com/NSQ. Thanks for listening. I'm really into Black Trilinex that are very thin material. It's sort of my inner Steve Jobs or something. Or outer Steve Jobs even. The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything.