Do You Love Me for Me or For What I Do for You?

I've been married twice, once to a woman for over a decade, and we co-parent, are now teenage daughter and we live next door to each other. My second marriage was to a man, but that marriage also ended in divorce just after four years. After my second marriage ended, I made sense out of what first felt like a failure. I think by intellectualizing marriage and monogamy as some kind of simply unnatural state and marriage as a social construct that benefits society by increasing generational wealth. Yeah, I know. I began to rationalize my way out of any desire for a long-term partnership, but then one night I went out dancing, all alone and quite happily so. And I met. Another person there also alone quite happily so. And we danced and talked all evening. That was two years ago. And we have been friends, lovers, companions in so many amazing ways since. For the first year of our friendship, we dated other people. Now, for the last nine months or so, I have not dated anyone else but him. So here we are, two people committed to non-monogamy. And yet. At least for now, monogamous. We both intellectualize a lot and are rather public people in our communities. I'm a clergy person in a Christian church. So you can imagine that the expectations of me and my relationship status, especially as a female clergy person in the southern US are quite big. And so we keep our relationship really private. It feels safe there. And yet, part of me is wondering what I'm so fearful of. Am I missing out on some benefit of monogamy or at least a relationship that's not so separate from the rest of my life? And I'm deeply curious if I've abandoned on some level my wants and desires out of fear. Fall is here, and that means the Pumpkin Spice Latte is back at Starbucks. It's the one we've been waiting for. So whether you're a fan of the original Pumpkin Spice Latte or ready to mix it up with an Iced Pumpkin Cream Chai, the new Iced Pumpkin Cream Matcha, or the new Iced Pumpkin Cream Shaken Espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Your favorite fall flavors are back at Starbucks. The one and only Pumpkin Spice Latte and the deliciously smooth Iced Pecan Crunchy. The Iced Pecan Crunch Latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite, like the new Iced Banana Bread Latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Hello. Hi. Are these all questions or are some of these statements with a question mark? Yes. I would say that my curiosity when it's free and open is like, I wonder what will happen next. And then when I am afraid or I'm feeling like there's some sort of scarcity or urgency, I become judgmental. And my question is more like, I wonder what will happen next. And so sometimes those statements are statements and sometimes they're questions. Right. So I was wondering, why now? Why did you reach out to me now? Because the questions are not new, or the statements. And what led you to us here today? I think it's an intersection of what you're exploring in your podcast and what I'm exploring in my life. And I was like, oh, I wonder if there is a part of what I'm curious about that you could help with. To be honest, that's part of it. And that part is? If you had to describe it? The part of me that gets fearful is wondering if I'm missing something. Am I ignoring a part of myself, what I want, what I need? That's a big part of it. It's just the doubt. If you were avoiding something, what would you be avoiding? If this is all one big protection strategy, what are you protecting? Because then the questions are not about monogamy, plurality, transparency. And the question is really, what's the fear that lives inside of me that is not new, that has probably accompanied me in marriage one, marriage two. And every other relationship in between. And so our conversation today is about that. That specific fear that has the ability to take your openness, your curiosity, and your thirst for life, and your confidence, and turn it on its head. I think it is a deep fear that. You smiled in recognition, by the way. Yeah, that smile that says, between you and you, that says, I know me. And it's such a simple knowing, but it's so painful. And I think it's that I'm not enough for others. I'm not enough in the world. I go back and forth. It's between being too much and not being enough. I have this part that's telling me constantly, I'm too big. I'm too much. Too much what? Arrogant, confident, outspoken. All of the things that tend to produce some rejection in society. For me as a female in the South, there is, I think, a lot of cultural, judgment of the way I approach life. And then there's this other part that never has felt like enough to keep the connection with another person in a consistent, confident way. And that leads to? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think a lot. I think it leads to lack of confidence, self-doubt. Shifting myself and my wants to meet the needs of others, to deny my own needs, because my needs are going to go into the too much category. So if I can just be easy and giving, then other people will want to be connected to me because I'm in the posture of helper or giver, thus social work and clergy life that keeps my connection. Because I have value there, but somehow if I'm honest about my needs and wants, I'm going to overwhelm people and not be able to remain connected. I keep finding myself in the same place where either I choose to be connected to people who don't really want to meet my needs. They might want to be needed, but they don't want to actually meet me. They might want to meet my needs or be in a supportive position, or I stop speaking my needs before I even find out if they're capable or want to be in that relationship with me. And when you, I'm asking you questions just because we just met and. Yes. But you have met yourself and you say, I have met this part of me. That says you're too much. And the part of me that says you're not enough. I know them both very well and I know them for a long time. So let me meet them a little bit more. And let me also ask when you say, when I meet someone, when you meet someone in your congregation, when you meet someone as a friend, when you meet someone as a lover or potential partner, is there a difference between the way these partners. Live in the world and the type of relationship that we're talking about. I think. in a professional role, I have such a protective persona of professional, and it's a one-way street. It's not mutual. And I mean, it is on a very deep level, but I can still present as the giver, and I think sometimes the expert. And do you sometimes find yourself in that situation where you say, why do all of them know who to turn to, and I'm there for them, and I have no one that I can turn to like they do with me, who would do for me what I do for them? Yeah. That is a story that is really important. It's repeated often. Another reason I reached out, I think now, is I'm 50. I think there is a scarcity mindset on some level about, am I going to have what I need in these next years? And there is just this story, this part that tells me the story, you're going to end up alone. You're going to die alone. You're going to spend your whole life taking care of other people, and then in the end, while I have such good friends, and I have so many connections, there is a fear that nobody has to be there for me. Everybody that I'm in relationship with has another partner, and so I'm not the most important thing to anyone. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us, and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. Hate to break it to you, but now that it's August, that means summer is almost over. For some of you, that might be a relief. Autumn means cooler weather, which also means it might be time to find some cozy cold weather staples. Enter Quince. Quince specializes in effortless, high-quality essentials like ultra-soft organic cotton and premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're beautifully tailored, built to last, and transition seamlessly from morning meetings to a nice dinner out. This summer, I've been wearing quite a bit of Quince linen. I love the European linen tank because it's light, comfortable, and goes with just about everything. And when the weather cools down, I'm looking forward to pulling my cashmere sweaters back out. They're the pieces I reach for year after year. Upgrade your everyday. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com slash begin. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash begin. Your favorite fall flavors are back! At Starbucks, the one and only Pumpkin Spice Latte and the deliciously smooth Iced Pecan Crunch Latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. So whether you're a fan of the original Pumpkin Spice Latte, or if you're ready to mix it up with an Iced Pumpkin Cream Chai, the new Iced Pumpkin Cream Matcha, or the new Iced Pumpkin Cream Shaken Espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Take me back. Take me back a little bit. Because the beauty of what you're saying is, I'm afraid. It's a fear. You're not telling me nobody's there for me. Mm-mm. They are there, and nevertheless, I'm. I'm still afraid that there may be no one there. Mm-hmm. I'm still afraid that I will have resent the fact that I gave to everyone, that I was. Not just that I gave to everyone, but that in the moments of need that people come to me, I am the most important one. That there is something about meeting people at their most vulnerable that makes me very, very important. That's right. And that is true for therapists, for clergy. For medical professionals. I mean, and it's often a kind of importance that is hard to replicate in other relationships, in other parts of one's life. Who wants you as much as someone who comes in a dire situation to speak with their clergy? I mean, you are it. And if the I am it, I'm that most important person you turn to, is the level at which you feel safe of not being alone. Mm-hmm. Finish the sentence. How can that ever exist in a mutual relationship where I'm not the expert? Right. And I'm not the crisis counselor, and I'm not the clergy. I'm just one real human with another real human. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And how do I find a way to make this actually a state of respite and relief rather than a state of deprivation and fear? Preach. You're the preacher. So tell me, when did you first meet too much and not enough? How did they become such big parts of you? I mean, I think I've always known them. I think over the last 14 years, I've befriended them. Mm-hmm. But I've always known them. So as a child, I lived in a home where from the outside, it looked very stable. And on some level, it definitely was. Mm-hmm. And on the deeper level, it definitely was. level. I have a sibling who has severe mental illness and was acting out a lot. And then another sibling that was gone and I'm six years younger than both of them. And so I was little, I was in my house where there was a lot of chaos. And the one person I really felt connected to was my father, but he was a businessman and he traveled constantly and would be gone for three, four weeks at a time. And I would never know when he was leaving or when he was coming back because I was little and they just didn't talk about that. So I have memories of waking up and seeing his bags at the doorway and just being like, oh God. Knowing that when he. When he left, I was alone because my mom didn't really have the capacity to deal with my sibling. And it was just chaos, lots of fighting. But then when my dad was home, he would ground things and I would feel safe again, but it was inconsistent and unpredictable. And I think that I just kind of hid out and. But yet I was really responsible from a young age to be kind of the emotional lightning rod. So I think it was really difficult to have that part of me, that helper part to be overdeveloped at such a young age. And so then when I went out into the world with this kind of overdeveloped sense of, I don't know, helper maturity, there was a pushback. And I was often rejected for being overly confident or arrogant or all of these words that got, I think, thrown at me from a young age. By? Peers, but also teachers and then people in charge of institutions that I worked in or people in authority. So I had this childhood where I didn't. I didn't have a consistent connection. And I think part of me feels like it's because I wasn't enough to keep the consistent connection. I wasn't enough to stay home for. And then I was also too much in the world often or seen as that and critiqued as that. What do you mean when you say to stay home for? I think there's a part of me that thinks. If my dad had known how much I needed him there, if I'd been enough for him to take care of, he wouldn't have kept leaving. Mm-hmm. So you personalized. is leaving. I think so. I think, yeah, I think as a young person, I did. Oh, little six, maybe even younger, but definitely around six. Yeah. I had in mind five, six. Yeah. And I also had, um, my, when I was six years old, my doctor told my parents that I was overweight and they put me on a diet at six where all of my food was weighed and I couldn't, I could only eat what was weighed, but everybody else in my family could have whatever they wanted. But at six. Wow. For how long? Oh, until I was probably, I mean, I'm not sure how long the weighing of the food took place, but then I had to like go to Weight Watchers and weigh in public and until I was probably 15, 16. So talk about being too much. Yeah. I just thought of that too. Did you stop on your own? Oh. No. I think I stopped eating, uh, so much and lost a bunch of weight. And then they were like, oh, it's great. She's fine now. When I'm stressed, my appetite goes away. Right. So when I am stressed, I stopped needing much of anything because that was, you know, everything was very controlled. My needs didn't, you know, dictate what I was given. It was literally weighed and that's what I got. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I think the, the combination of all of that, like these young parts of me that believe my needs have to be controlled and weighed in order to be fed. And how do you communicate with that young part of you? You know, like many five-year-olds personalize. Mm-hmm. If my parents divorce, it's because of me. If, if my father travels or if, if he really cared, if I was more, if he would not travel rather than whatever the circumstances of his life. So at five, six, we do put ourselves at the center of the universe. It's actually developmentally common. What's more troubling is when that five-year-old still runs the show. And when it still looks that you live with this feeling that people are weighing your food, your emotional food, maybe not your physical food, your material food, but your emotional food, and that it's decided by the outside and that you always have a tenuous relationship to your own needs and that you actually on some level, since you didn't, you didn't really get to learn what they were on some level because somebody else was applying. Mm-hmm. So you left with a certain uncertainty about what's too little, what's too much, what's fair, what's not fair, what do I deserve, what do I not deserve, what can I ask for, what should I not have to ask for that other people should just give me. Yep. This whole. Yes. Dance, right? Around. So how do I interact with that part? I. Mm-hmm. Let her know that you are not five anymore. Yes. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and that, yes, there is something about being intensely needed that makes me feel less afraid that I will be alone because if people need me, they come. Yes, there is something artificial in some way in the level of importance that one has, certainly as a clergy, as a person who accompanies people at the most extreme situations and moments of their life. So I am so central, so much a bearer of meaning and ritual and grief and all of that. So outside of that realm, it often feels some challenging, like, so then who am I? When I'm not this, what's my value? Who am I? What would people come to me for? And so a part of me absolutely wants people to come to me in those moments. And then a part of me feels that, you know, but they don't come for small things. Come for something simple for a change. I mean, I'm fantasizing about you. I'm riffing out loud. You tell me if it's hot or cold. No, it's absolutely true. I think there's security in being needed and a lot of insecurity in needing for me, for that part. But that part gets the keys to the book. So to speak, when I am in mutual relationships that don't have. Yeah, when I'm not in this role, I am secure when I'm needed. I am insecure when I need. Yep. This is the organizing line of our conversation. Yes. I am insecure when I have any needs. And I am also insecure when you don't need me in such an acute way. Like, can I be liked just for who I am rather than for what I provide? That one touched you. Mm-hmm. I think within every relationship I've had, there comes a point where I've asked that question. Does this person love me for who I am or for what I do for them? Mm-hmm. And I've never trusted, no matter what they say, I've never really trusted that they love me and want me and want to be connected to me because of just who I am. Mm-hmm. In fact, when I even say the words who I am, it almost feels like a reverb. Like, I don't even know what that means. Part of me is like, what does that mean, who you are? If I'm not helping you, saving you, advising you, ministering to you, do you enjoy my company? Do you value my presence? Yes. Do you seek me out to have fun, to explore, to talk, to create deep connection? But that is not based on my being the deliverer of help. What other transactions exist between me and my partners that is not rooted in that structure? Yeah. I think the question is really, really. And it's less a question about them. Would they like me if they didn't need me or if I wasn't helping them is not a question they have. That's why you say, even when, regardless of what they tell me, I don't believe them. Yeah. Because a part of me is deeply attached to being needed. I'm comfortable there. And part of why you're here today is to say, what else is out there for me? What am I? What am I missing? What am I missing? This is the key. Yeah. So now I'm with this new person. And how would he respond if I actually didn't position myself as the expert, as vice, helper, rescuer, but just in a more mutual, as you say, more reciprocal? Because it's not about flipping it. It's not about me becoming. It's really mutual, reciprocal, open-ended. Yeah. I don't know. What have you tried so far? You've two years with him. Yeah. A little more than that. Now, I'm trying, this is something we've talked about, is I'm trying to state what I need clearly. Because sometimes I think I've said a need. But it's not clear. To whom? Well, I think probably wouldn't be clear to most people. I guess. Because the way I'll state it is so like. Convoluted, yes. And avoidant, you know? I'm so avoidant with my. Well, I'm not always, but I have a comfort with being ambiguous about my needs because then they won't be too much. And so if I don't catch it and if I didn't hear it, you didn't read it. I don't really make it so obvious so that you don't have to be disappointed that you asked for something and it was refused. So you ask it in such a convoluted way that if I miss it, we can pretend it never happened. That's right. So now let's do a little exercise. give me 10 things you need five let's do it i'll be gentle give me five things i need yeah but the point is not about what you need this is not in the what this is in the healthy sense of entitlement to just ask and not put myself and turn myself into such a pretzel who is on the one hand uncomfortable on the other hand angry that you even have to and then confused about it and then tense about it and then fearful about it and it's wrapped in so many things that it's usually not surprising that the question didn't come out simple and clear so we don't have a relationship so you can just practice with me we have an ad hoc momentary intimacy here and i'm just saying give me five things you would like you enjoy you need you long for you aspire to and breathe each time you say them just this is about embodying them and about being at ease because there's nothing i can do i'm just a stranger we met you met and i don't come with history i'm all ears i need to be seen now take a deep breath and say it again and you'll stop when you set it with ease and calm i need to be seen mm-hmm you need to be seen i need to be seen tell me again i need to be seen loosen your jaw just loosen your jaw because you're holding it all right at the jaw you you can literally take your hands and just loosen it and then tell me again i need to be seen yes much better yeah i need to be seen we'll be back with a session right after this and while we love our sponsors if you want to listen to this session ad free click the try free button to subscribe to estera's office hours on apple podcasts on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin 2538 that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from uber one more way uber is putting safety and safety first in your every turn learn more on the uber app right now when you buy more carpet at the home depot you save more during our buy more save more event going on now upgrade your carpeting with the top brands and save up to 15 off installed carpet projects installation starting at just 49 cents per square foot select from a wide assortment of carpet to fit your room lifestyle and budget during the buy more save more event at the home depot offer valid august 27th through september 13th 2026 base price for standard installations only excludes traffic master and stock carpet for licenses see homedepot.com license numbers hey friends olivia from ollie between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting you need science-backed solutions that work with your life that's where ollie comes in start your mornings off right with multis made to support nutrition and immune health choose from our lineup of gut supporting probiotics and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand stock up on ollie.com today these statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration this product is not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease and what else do you need want like i need to be fed and feed myself i need to be cared for and i'm don't i don't even really know what that means when i say it like but it just feels like a deep like i need to and want to be cared for oh you do know what it means because you care for a ton of people it means you think of them you hold them in your thoughts you hold them really you touch them you reach out to them so this just came to me i i need to allow myself to be cared for nice yeah nice say that one again i need to allow myself to be cared for so close your eyes for a moment and just feel it where does this allowance to be cared for start in your body where does it begin feels like an expansive in my lower gut like a opening put your hands there and just breathe right into it so that you feel that expansion physically feel it sense it nothing like the membrane of your gut expanding tightening blowing open and pressing against your hands it's exactly where you probably held the bottom of your child when you were holding them and when you open the bottom of the gut it opens the chest and when you open the chest it opens your shoulders and when you open your shoulders it lifts your neck and it looses your jaw and you are allowing yourself to be cared for you're making space for needs for wants for pleasures for what other people can give to you you're surrounded by people who actually want to give to you that is not your issue i know okay we've established that you're not alone you're not alone you're not alone it's can i allow myself to let them give because when they do then it makes me more vulnerable because it puts me in touch with those needs and it puts me in touch with the fear that today they're here but tomorrow they could not be here yeah welcome to life yeah who doesn't have that feeling mm-hmm when you're not alone when you love you live with the fear of loss that's fact they can die they can get sick they can leave the moment you get close you live with the fear of what it would be to lose them everyone does that's existential that's not just psychological mm-hmm the degree with which you live with that fear to the point where you're not alone to the point where it doesn't allow you to let people in at the level that you would like that's psychological that's historical the existence of the fear itself is normal it's real but if you close yourself and you don't allow that expansion inside that says come in say it in your own words mm-hmm the fear of losing the people we love is a fear everyone knows and experiences but the my self protective part that keeps the connection from deepening by allowing people to care for me is one that I learned to do mm-hmm yeah mm-hmm mm-hmm how does that land on you it feels both heavy like oh my gosh I've spent a lot of time protecting myself and that makes sense and there are consequences to that and I also am aware that if I learned it I can continue to unlearn that behavior I need to be vulnerable. And, um, the word weak is coming to my mind that have such negative connotation connotations, but I really mean it in a, since like a body way, like I need to be able to show up in moments more fragile or weak, not yeah, just that I, I need to be able to experience fragility to be present in a fragile way. Yeah. Fragile, weaker, vulnerable, as opposed to knowing all. In charge, too much arrogant, that whole other. Yes. Beautiful. I need to be allowed to not know to be afraid, to be unsure, to be fragile without any negativity associated to all of this. Hungry. Nice. Um, and I need to be able to be needy of the things that sustain me. All of the other things we listed really fall under this. Just, I need to be able to be needy. So I have a little suggestion for you. Okay. Can you think of two or three people that you could go to and say, this woman, talk to made me do this whole thing. And then she said, I'd like you to ask a few people who know you well, how am I doing in this department of showing up needy, vulnerable? Yeah. Okay. Vulnerable need to be fed, need to be held, need to be seen. You know, do you even know that I have those needs? Have I ever even? articulated some of these things in ways that I'm not aware of. It comes out anyway. Or does it look like I'm always, you know, well put together all in charge and God would never know that I have any of this living inside of me. And she wanted me to do a little survey, fact checking about what's the relationship, but between what lives inside of me. And what lives between me and you could be your ex-wife with whom you co-parent and are on good terms, could be your current partner, could be a good friend. You don't have to make it a whole session, but just, you know, I want to do a little pulse check. Could that be? Yeah, definitely. Thank you. Is this a good place to stop? Yes. Thank you, Esther. Very good. Yes. This was an Esther Calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music, and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. Or find a new favorite like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes, just like fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks.