DMT, the Laser Experiment & Simulation Theory | Danny Goler

What if I told you that someone may have discovered a way to see the actual code behind a reality? Well, my guest today Danny Golder claims to have done just that. He's developed an experiment using DMT and lasers that reveals what he believes is the underlying programming of our universe. His theory goes far beyond what you might imagine. Danny believes that we are living inside the simulation and that our entire reality is being computationally rendered by an intelligence beyond our comprehension. But perhaps even more astonishing is how he arrived in this conclusion. It all begins with a bizarre encounter with this mysterious frog-like entity that he claims appeared in his room and communicated information that he couldn't possibly have known. So, if you're interested in uncovering the hidden code of reality, the possibility that we're living in a simulation and whether non-human intelligences are trying to communicate with us, well, you're in the right place. Danny is a fascinating storyteller, a really interesting guy and I think really applies a lot of science and technique to his methodology that on the surface might seem a little crazy. This episode is awesome, I hope you enjoy it, so sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. Danny Golder, how are you? How are you Mark? It's really pleasure to be here, man. I am so excited that you're kind of the ideal camp guest. Wow. Yeah, I'll think it is a huge honor. Absolutely, it should be. This is the whole reason I do the shows to sit down and chat with people like you. I want to get the whole audience kind of on board with your theory of everything, so to speak, right? Because I don't think that you've obviously become really well-known in the space for a specific kind of discovery. We can call it that we'll talk about a little bit that the audience is, I'm sure aware of, but it's not just one thing. It's not just a cool experiment that's like, "Oh, this is crazy." It is that, but it is many more things that are all interconnected. And I think to break down the whole theory of everything, there's a bit of a winding road that we're going to kind of mesh altogether. But to begin, I'm curious about your sort of spiritual framework before any of this happened, before you actually were interested in understanding consciousness, or understanding the spiritual realm, so to speak, or the cosmos, or what any of this really is. What was your framing when you were in your late teens? What do you understand about reality at that point? Very what you would back then call physicalist, or just that there's the universe, and everything we can understand about it through physics. That's the thing that made sense to me. And in fact, I almost had a tacit negative as the wrong word, but definitely kind of like I was looking down at people that kind of dabbled in both religious and spiritual modalities. Because to me, it felt just silly. It's like, you know, it's a very common trope among atheists to say, "Oh, this is just, you know, for the weak spirited, for the weak minded. You can't handle death." That's why you make up all these silly stories, right? That was my perception. I was never really militant about it. I never really caught people in the corner. I was like, "Ah, yeah, you were in a retinate, yes, too." I enjoyed, obviously, some of the battles, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens, and all those. But just for the billions of mine itself, I was never really about, for example, Richard Dawkins, I always found him a little bit too combative. I was like, "Why do you care that much of what others think, right?" It was an eye roll for you. It was an eye roll for sure. That's a really good way of describing it. And then, in fact, I told the story a few times, but in short, I got the first entry point was actually relatively recent. I think it was like maybe a little bit less than 20 years ago, so not that long ago. It was dating this woman back then. Tammy, I think her name was, I should probably know this. No, she's lovely. A beautiful girl gives you something. You take it, obviously, but she gifted me Eckhart Tolly's second book, A New Earth. It was actually not the part of now, which is the entry point for a lot of people. And I saw it as such an insult. I was like, "Why do you think I need this?" I didn't say anything, but I kind of threw the book. It's like gifting your wife a treadmill. It's a nice gift, but it's an insult in a way, or diet pills. She's like, "Hey, you got to read some stuff. You got to work on yourself." So, anyways, I put it in the corner of the room, and it was one faithful night, which it was like all the things. It was like in movies. It was a thunderstorm. There was an outage, and I had one lamp that was just on battery power. I lived in Indiana back then. For that reason, I knew the power outages can happen doing storms. And just in movies, literally, that lamp was just illuminating the cover of the book. There was nothing to do, so I was like, "I find." So, I pick it up, start reading. And it made so much sense to me, and I'm like, "F**k." I was like, I was like, "Woo-woo-woo, people are honest." Yeah, I was like, "This is not what I thought it was." And I was like, "This is just like common sense." Because it wasn't spoken about, yes, there were some pretty claims that scientists would say, "Where are you getting this from?" You couldn't fold it into a scientific methodology. Sure. But it made sense, and it resonated with me, that word, resonate. So, I kept on reading it, and every time I would read it, I would feel better and better. I'm like, "That's crazy." And then, I obviously opened up to it very quickly, and it was around the same time that I actually heard a Joe Rogan rant about DMT. And I was already very experienced with psychedelics, but I've never heard of DMT before. And it was before Joe had the podcast. It was like 2006 or something that he did that radio show where he was braving about it. And so, that happened, and then I discovered it in some mechanics. So, all of this kind of like started working up together, where I tried to find DMT, couldn't find it, try to extract it, didn't work. Only when I got to LA, I managed to procure some. And my whole spiritual journey really started around then, like 2007, but very slowly. First, by reading a card and then other people. And then I started, I was like, "Okay, what else is out there?" The first thing I did is that I checked the person. So, I watched every interview I could of that card. Because like, who's speaking, right? Like, in the book, it makes sense. I want to know who's the person who's saying it. And I mean, you don't need to watch more than 10 minutes of that card, to know like, "Oh, he's the real deal." He's like out there, right? And you're like, "Okay, interesting." But then there was this struggle of like, "Okay, how do I still maintain all the things that I love doing?" Like, you know, seeing beautiful women and enjoying the physical world, and like, how do I still do that and grow spiritually? So, the rest of my life was basically kind of like a conversation between the different modalities that I would like to exhibit as a person and also still enjoy myself. And that's how I view my whole thing. And then eventually, I found meditation, and I started doing the pasana. And I think that's when really things started kind of like taking a different shape, because that level of commitment to something allows you to then understand it on the level that you can't, if you just dabble in something, right? You become, I'm definitely not a professional meditator, but when you spend more time with it, just like with everything else, you understand things about it, and it's nuances in what it really is, that solidifies that knowledge into your body. It becomes more somatic, and that's where real understanding comes from. So, I would say today, I'm a culmination of like that whole process, and there's a lot of twists and turns in that road, and especially when I started, you know, I discovered what I'm claiming to have discovered, and when I started talking about this stuff, all of a sudden, new channels opened up, and actually some of the stuff that, you know, the more wacky kind of, you know, talking to aliens, doing things like this, all of a sudden, that came online. And at that point, I was already, I just kind of embraced that you just have to accept what comes, and the main tool became discernment, like how do you discern what is usable, what is true, what is practical, like all of these bins of, as you very eloquently called it, social technology, but is there more, and what is that more, and how it plays a role in our lives, and all that stuff, became paramount to understand. So, it became part of the larger picture of the world, that until that point was just basically everything we can understand from physics, and I realized, oh, there's way more to consider, it's way more complicated. Right, yeah. Hey, real quick, most people who watch this channel aren't subscribed, and when you subscribe, you help the channel grow, and you stay in the loop with every new drop, religion camp, history camp, and camp gagged on it. Now, let's get back to it. Now, I'm curious how do you discern, I mean, I guess that's kind of the biggest question in a way, like when we're talking about psychedelic experiences, because anyone, you know, the guy that's watching, if he's done mushrooms, or maybe has no experience with it, I think that there's a base level assumption, like, okay, you see something, right? Like, I've done mushrooms, you see things, like it's a part of it, and then kind of the question I think diverges on, are these purely fictions of the brain chemistry that's changing by this actual ingestion of the substance, or is this opening yourself up to some type of like spiritual dimension that is an actual higher version of reality? And I think it splits. And so the materialists would say like, yeah, you're getting high, like you're seeing stuff, like duh. But then someone with a more spiritual backing, or sort of an inclination towards towards that direction would say, like, no, there's. this is a portal. This opens you up to something into a bigger way. So, how are you able to ascertain from, especially these early sort of psychedelic experiences, like when you're kind of experimenting, prior even to DMT? What are you kind of learning and what makes you think that this is not just a hallucination of the mind purely kind of locked within your brain? It's a great question. It goes to the core of how you know anything. So, if you notice even about your day-to-day experience, the thing that makes it clear to us that this is real and the dream is the dream, even though a lot of people that experience with dreams that would say, "No, no, no, no, you can also induce way more realistic dreams." Let's set this aside for a second because I think there's a conversation to be had there, but there's something about the repetitive nature of whatever it is that does play a role. There's something about the way things appear to you, the fact that they're continuous over time, the fact that there's a certain, well, here-ness to things. That's how you know this is worth investing your attention into, and in physics, the things that we call the laws of physics are the regularities that arise from everything that we observe in such a way that seems to be unirritable, even in principle. And maybe if they can shift, at least we can see how that can shift in any meaningful way anytime soon. So, it has to do with something that you can experience on a regular basis. There's a repeatability. There's a something that you get to interact with. There's a regularity that you observe over time, right? And it's not the final word on that, but it's definitely a big component of that. So, the question becomes, okay, are there other experiences in the mind that you can have on a regular basis that will tell you that there's actually information, real realness to it. It has an ontological reality on its own side, just like the physical matter does. Even though it's not what you would call physical, it's that possible. And then it's just a matter of exposure to that experience. So, if you have an experience, like DMT, and the reason that it captures so much of the world's imagination currently in so many ways, is because it holds that quality. It has that mourness, and it has that solidification of some kind of a real ontological reality feeling. Feeling is the wrong word. The way it appears to you, right? It's just like it's just kind of there. That begs the question, is it real? And this is also why it's one of the only substances that is being investigated scientifically. This is already happening in universities around the world. Anybody who's not aware of projects like DMTX, Imperial College in London, they also do in San Diego, Dr. John Dean. And most psychedelic, I promise that this is not a useless roundabout, like this is important to understand. The most psychedelic research today is happening around the healing question. Like how can it help us heal? DMT is the only substance that in addition to the healing question, the ontological question is being investigated directly. So there's literally the question is being asked in the lab, is this a real space? Why? Because it has that quality, so to your question, how do you discern? When enough people experiencing events, places, encounters with beings that are so repetitive and so agreeable among so many individuals who are doing it, you kind of, if you're serious about investigating reality, you kind of owe it to the species to ask these questions seriously. And with the full admission that over time, the only way it would cash out is if we manage to, quote unquote, do something with it, not because we're trying to control it, but because that's the identifying principle of something that is real. If you can actually predict what it's going to do, have an interaction with it in the same way that you can move objects, it would have to have some kind of an engineering result for it to really be considered like, okay, yeah, there's something there. Which by the way is the thing that I'm claiming that the laser experiment can can allow us to do eventually. Right. I've heard it said that one story is just kind of an anecdote. It's interesting, but it's not really verifiable or testable. But then 10,000 stories, obviously, becomes a qualitative data set. Yeah. And now you can kind of see things and draw patterns and maybe that tells us more about the substance and or maybe it tells us about this place as an actual extension of reality. There's one argument that I really love employing by Dr. Andrew Galamore that actually puts a puts that idea that you need to necessarily just observe it over longer and longer periods of time with more and more people to actually say something substantial about it. It's true. However, there's the fact that the brain doesn't make up content should be a hint as to the fact that actually something real is going on. So specifically, the argument goes, your eyes are not cameras. The way they work is that there's just one sense among many that feeds information to the brain. What the brain is doing is not just receiving the information and translating it. It guesses. So it's a very sophisticated guest machine. Right. And what it guesses, if it kind of matches to what the senses are informing it about, then for the most part, the brain is ignoring the environment. So most things, if nothing happens, they're just the thing that you bring guest forward. So it's not actually the photons hitting you red now right now. Most of it, only when something surprising happens when your brain goes, oh, whoa, that's not what I thought. And it tries to guess adjacently. It kind of goes like, so I was like, is it this then? Is it this then? Is it this then? Is it this then? And when it has a match, it's like, okay, good. And then it keeps projecting that. It preserves energy that way. And everybody has what's called world models, which is basically these guests, you can think of them like big placards of like, okay, is it this? Is it this? Kind of like what the brain is doing, right? So then the question becomes, because the scenarios on the empty are so highly complex coherent. So to anybody who's never done it before, it's not like when you do the empty is just like, just a crazy duet flying triangles. It's not like that. It's not this wacky nonsense. It's highly sophisticated, complex, well formulated, adheres to its own rules, kind of world. More complex than this, if you can imagine that. Sometimes more spatially dimensional. And I understand the kind of the pushback for like, how do you know? Well, you kind of know in the same way you know this, right? So then the question becomes, why in the world would the brain, all of a sudden, make up a more complex world that makes perfect sense on its own right? Where is that coming from? The brain didn't have those world models. It's in fact, it's struggling to try and like, guess it in real time. That argument, even though it's not a final nail in a coffin, it's a very strong argument from a neuroscientific perspective that in fact, there's real information coming in and it's not just like a, you know, just like a, you're basically just rattling the nervous system. It's not like that. Are you familiar with the book The Case Against Reality by Donald Hoffman? Yeah, yeah. In fact, I just had one of the mathematicians for the Trace Institute of Don's Trace Institute, Neufaer Hermenson, Millinguy, and we had a very deep dive about that whole theory and what it is. And yeah, I like the way that he sort of frames it because it comes from a very academic and I think rigorous sort of framework to say kind of what I feel. And I think a lot of people sort of inherently feel, which is that the reality that we live in and perceive is not the fundamental reality, right? Like, and this is proven just through, you know, our eyes ability to like see gamma rays or x rays, like these are actual versions on the spectrum of light that we don't perceive because we don't really need to and that evolution does not set us up to perceive reality in the truest sense and like the principle sense, but our senses help us to evolve and to survive. And so that's what we're outfitted for as human beings that we don't need to see all these things. Birds have extra cones in their eyes like they can see a different spectrum of light than we see. So as far as perception is involved in this consciousness conversation and how perception influences their understanding of reality, they live in a subtly different reality than we live in, not only because they're birds and obviously they're processing and computational power, of course, but even just the things that they see, like if you were dropped in with your consciousness into a bird's mind, you would see the world vastly differently. And he describes this like the computer interface. Like when you open up your computer and you're dealing with like your desktop and you see files on the desktop, that's not the computer. Like there's binary and ones and zeros and like hardware inside, there's an entire world and system in the computer and you are using the UI. You're using this computer interface in order to manage and deal with it. And I think it's the best sort of example to sort of get me to understand like, okay, we're using an operating system and those are our senses and that is how we perceive reality, but it is not the totality of what reality is. So now that there's this gray area, it's like well, to suggest that there's an additional reality that can be induced through DMT other psychedelics. It's like, why not? That could just be an extension of this thing. It's like, we call it spiritualism or woo-woo or whatever, but maybe that is just a physics or a science that we just don't really have the words for or the ability to test. So I'm curious for you before even DMT, like what were the other psychedelic experiences and what did you ascertain from them? Like can you give me like stories and examples of what those Experiences were like yeah, but just if you don't mind. I just want to say a couple words about what you just said So in fact, I don't know if you notice, but the Trace Institute, which is what Don's project now became Where they're fully working this out with like, you know mathematicians and physicists They're actually collaborating now with Andrew Galamore the guy who I just told you about. I didn't know yeah And they did a really beautiful event in LA that I went to cold traces of the other and Basically, they're going to now use psychedelics To triangulate the theory. Hmm. So they're going to basically use psychedelics as a special case because like it's almost like you're stressing the system Right just like in material science you stress the materials in order to find something interesting about them You take them to edge cases In this case psychedelics, you can do them as like a special case a very extreme case of consciousness So now all the ideas they have around they're using with something they're called it's called a Markov chains Which is like a mathematical object that has particular properties and they use that to try and Guess create a theoretical framework around what is the most likely next conscious moment from whatever conscious moment You find yourself in so trying to actually like discern that and they're going to be using DMT and other substances to Try and see if they can guess correctly. So like according to so it's really really fascinating. Well, yeah, yeah and Basically in the end just like I said with with with the previous point You will have to get to a point where it makes a lot of concrete predictions properly For it to become more than and even if they're the mathematician that I just had on my podcast He he even said that currently he sees it more in the in the in the world of Mathematical philosophy like it's it's you know, but I do believe I'm a big believer in what the dawn is doing Donald Hoffman. I do think they will be successful But it's the day where they're going to start be able to make these kinds of predictions about like specific moments of experience and on walls You know the kind of perception that species have according to the kind of world that they need to live in and for the reward functions Then it's going to become like this like enormous part of our mainstream science is it's such an exciting If you can predict the next conscious moment, I mean to to some degrees and again, this is gonna be a lot of the mutation there but but yeah, and just to Say one more word about what you just said you gave it a perfect outline The claim that Donald is making is actually very radical. He's not saying That we don't perceive reality for what it really is He's saying we can't possibly perceive reality for what it really is like there's act There's actually invested interest in making sure we don't see any of it because if we do we would not survive the evolutionary game Like basically he proved that with game theoretical models But do you point about other substances? Yeah, I've had a lot of experimental tech dogs when I was a kid Definitely not from any kind of like Responsible personal growth kind of perspective just kind of like you know full throttle. Let's see where this goes kind of attitude I've got a bunch of acid a bunch of mushrooms Obviously weed, you know a staple in a maturing mind repertoire of things to use and You know, it's only when I started going through that period that I described you before with Eckhart and all of that and I realized oh Maybe I can utilize these as tools. Mm-hmm. And that's when I started kind of aiming those towards a more particular direction but for all intents and purposes I you know, I was By my mid-twenties. I was already a very experienced psycho. Not like I'd been doing those since early teens like eleven It was the first time I did acid and I just kind of find myself in an interesting position because At the point where psychedelics became all of a sudden, you know the talk of the town I Already had so much experience with it that I had some things to say that interested people Even before I was in the public eye I was just kind of like people would come to me and like ask me a bunch of questions about it and then When I made the discovery all of a sudden, it's almost like I was like, oh, I see so interesting. That's why It's all kind of connects right all by itself without you really doing anything But was there was there anything in those early experiences that made you think like oh This is an actual place. This is a real reality. It was just like fun You're like these colors are crazy that tree looks so crazy. No, it was clear to me that there's more to what's going on because of it But I never really Entertained the question more seriously than that like it was like Obviously if you do DMT even once you go What like that stuff first thing is like you don't expect to actually open that kind of a door in your head You you had no idea that was in the cards It's not like just a slight departure from the kind of things in the way that you perceive them It's a different kind of things. It's a different kind of world. It's it's almost like a Channel that you never thought was even possible, right? So that alone obviously makes you ask the question was like wait a second but There's there's something about it that kind of Receives from you the almost almost on purpose or like for Don's work under Donald Hoffman's work that makes perfect sense. It's almost like your brain goes like okay. Yeah, yeah But don't worry about it like just kind of like and then you just kind of move on with your little Whatever it is happening doing today But when I had one experience which was not in early days it was way later and that's the thing kind of started this whole thing I had a I had a DMT experience after already have Having had a lot of experience with it prior so like I had years of experience with DMT So I knew what was possible or so I thought and then I had one experience where It just changed everything that experience was that the famous frogman story where I just I smoked DMT Nothing really happened. I smoked a bunch of it and then I had a thought The thought was basically I remembered something that Terence McKenna said in one of his talks Which was you know Terence just like for many is one of my kind of like intellectual heroes And I and I remember him saying what if this is not a drug What if it's an alien disguising as a drug But that idea went to full certainty for me for some reason wasn't like oh wouldn't it be fun if I was like wait What if they're actually aliens like like for real the second I thought that I didn't smoke anymore The whole room flashed white this crazy white and I heard almost whispers in room not in English But I could understand the the kind of what they're saying to each other. It was like okay, he's paying attention. What do we say? I was like Huh And this frog dude just appears on my right as real as you now This is hard to deliver to people because people say all kinds of shit online right and they say it with so much like yeah I actor units came to visit me and I'm like and I'm actually always confused by these people So either you insane lying or I don't know What is this formulation of the world you have that this is so matter of fact for you right? How can you not be like holy shit about it right your body is not telling me the story properly But this moment I would just like Just take yourself to this imagine like a person only that looks like a frog standing next to you for real Nothing else is happening. No psychedelic explosion. No nothing as silent is here Just imagine what you would feel like and I was like And then he points to the the whole room kind of vignettes those the guitar that I had in the corner of the room And I immediately thought very extravagant ideas always gonna be communicating through music theory And I'm gonna have to connect dots. I'm like I'm not a musician. Yeah, now at this point are you scared? No, he did not have any scary demeanor like he was just kind of like very it's a discernment. It's all about the vibe Right, you know how like with certain people you just feel off right are you comfort like you get a sense Yeah, you get a sense without even really talking. Yeah, you just know if a giant sort of anthropomorphic frog showed up I would feel scared you you would be wrong It has to do with the presence. It still has to do with the vibe more than anything else And you're still consciously aware I'm on DMT like you know that this but I wasn't on DMT anymore That's that's 45 minutes later That's not a possibility. So like pharmacologically DMT completely expresses itself through your system Like even if you I don't know you do it like an enormous amount like I did After 30 minutes, there's no way that it's in your system in any meaningful way And this was like at least an hour after you're confident of the timeline 100% well. Yeah, there's no way the farmer pharmacologically didn't make any sense But almost certainly I mean this apparition is a part of the DMT experience No, like how do you have seen anything like this before so this was not so here's the thing first of all We know and this is where it kind of gets very hairy because for a lot of people who've never done this This is all just kind of like it's just a mishmash of craziness, right? So let's put things in bins The first thing is DMT even though it can do a lot of things It can't do infinite things very large family of things that can happen and they can appear very different from one another Even in quality. So like absolute DMT is capable of rendering all kinds of things including things that look very mundane Swapping people's faces and nothing else like it's capable of doing very weird and interesting things But there's still kind of like a framework all right around it. Right? At least it is open most of the time. The quality, the speed, that kind of stuff. This was not in it. Now, I'm not saying something so special happened to me that like, it's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that I knew what was in the cards usually. This was not one of them. And we also, and this is just a point to bring into people's awareness, we also know it depends on whether you're willing to entertain that that space, in fact, is real. So if you're willing to follow me there just for the sake of argument that this is not a hallucination, but in fact, the real space, we know for a fact, this is a fact, this is not just anecdotal. This happened at least once under clinical settings, like this happened in a, in a lab where DMTX was being studied, like somebody was intravenously connected, a woman was connected to DMT, they can control the valve from their side. If you're willing to to take for a second, this is real, right? Because what happens is the molecule opens a door, it seems. But then there's this other side of it. And we know for a fact, this is what happened to this woman, but many people report this where the aliens told her, you're done. And she was fully back. We know she was fully back, not just from the fact that she reported it, but also her brain was being scanned. They could see the difference, but she was full on drip. Like she, the drip was on. She should have been experiencing it. She should have been experiencing it, but they both told her verbally, like communicated, and she reported it and the brain scan verified she was no longer on it. So we know that there's something that can happen of that kind. My guess that what happened there was that this is purposefully was, was purposefully done in such a way by them that there was enough of it in my system to a certain degree, they can kind of hold it back almost like they borrow it and they hold it for you. It happened to me in other instances where they tell you, okay, keep smoking basically the kind of communicate with like a vibe, right? The kind of like I, this is other instances that I'm reporting now, an example where there was a, okay, smoke and then I smoke and nothing happens, but they're telling you, nothing's going to happen, keep going. Basically, they're holding it for you, because they need more fuel, so to speak. And then you keep doing it and then eventually, okay, here we go. And then something would unfold. Now, of course, for anybody who never done these things, this is these differentiations between like, you know, all of these things I'm describing is just maybe too much to wrap your mind around. But just for the sake of argument, now you ask me like, what was the inciting incident? That was it. And the reasons for it was because this, my perception was that I know what's in the cards. This was outside of what kind of cards you can be dealt. And this is the next part, which solidified it for me. He knew I'm very hard-headed and he knew the probably that the second I snap out of this experience, I would just be like, oh my God, that was the coolest thing that happened to me, but that would be it. Like, because even if it feels real, okay, maybe it's just like something we don't understand about the mind, that it can really do it. It's really cool, right? Whatever. But the next step solidified it for me. That part, he even the editor is the guitar. And it was basically to go to the guitar. And I thought it was going to be communicating to like music theory, but I'm not a musician, but reluctantly I went to the guitar. And then he disappeared from that side of the room and appeared next to me. And then he shows me, like, he puts his frog fingers like this, just do this. And I'm like, and then I strum and it makes sense. It's a chord. He's like, hmm, and then he goes, okay, now like this. And then I, three of them in a row. And I wish, I don't know what they were, but I said, I'd like, in, in corners of the fourth kind of what, right, the duplicated music, close encounters of the fourth kind of whatever, where the chords you had heard before. I don't, I don't have enough of a memory in that world. Yeah. Of music. I wish I would. And maybe this is what, would they go like, we gave you the thing? Whatever. How do you forget the chords? Yeah. But anyways, what I knew for sure is that they made sense. And I didn't know how to do them for sure. I didn't know. So it was sonically pleasing. Yeah. It was, it was clearly coherent. And they made sense in relationship to one another. It was like a tent and something, right? So I immediately understood what he was saying is like, do you understand? I'm giving you information you don't have. I am real. That instance, I knew nothing will ever be the same again. Because even if nobody else, which of course, now I know a lot of people kind of in that camp, one mind knew they're real for sure. And when I lock in something like this, I never let it go. Like I look at, I now know this is real. Now it's just a matter of time. I would figure out how we talk about that, right? And it's actually funny, because I like, I had a, I was renting the other room through Airbnb. And I had a postdoc in physics from Italy. Marco will never forget this because I exclaimed his name. I lived next to UCLA back then. And he was sleeping in the other room. It was like 2 a.m. or something. And I just, I was so blown away. I just exclaimed his name, because I knew, you know, we kind of start talking at this point. Did the entity leave? He was still kind of there. But I just, I would just like, Marco. And obviously he didn't wake up and thank God. I'm not going to tell him that a multidimensional frog taught me how to play the guitar. That would be the end of that in the past tomorrow. Yeah. It's like, yeah. But anyways, I called my best friend, Joe, who, who this is a good friend of a, he showed up. I was like, you got to come here right now. He didn't ask questions. He just drove all the way to me. And he's one of these people that like, and that's also one of my best friends, my best friend. He drove all the way to me. He's one of those people that I did everything with, right? He's also kind of wild like that. But even he, when I told him what happened, he just looked at me with this comes almost a little bit of a concerned face. And he literally like, like in a comedy, he was like, I think he needs to lay down. Wow. Like literally he's a, I was like, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. This happened. He's like, sure, I go, no, no, no, no, no. You don't, you, I saw that there's like no understanding here because he's done it, but he never meant entities and he never, which is interesting. And so you're asking me, how do you discern? There's something about the realism of that experience. You just know. Now, ultimately, if you want to communicate to the rest of the species, you're obligated to provide proof. You can just be like, no, just trust me, bro, I'm like, it's not, it's not going to work, right? But it was so clear that this was real that I was like, okay, we're going to figure this out. I don't know how, but we're going to figure this out. Like if it's real, just like we said in the beginning, if there's rules by which it's operating, can we discover these rules? So are they? When you're talking to Joe, the entities know over there. No, no, he obviously, yeah, he disappeared. After I exclaimed Marco, the thing kind of started like fading away. That part is a little, let's see what happened right now. Yeah, I just basically called Joe, I think that was, I never left the room. Could you remember the chords? Like we're able to show him? No, no, no, no. I was one thing that DMT does, unfortunately, is, and this is just like a known thing. It messes with your, with your RAM, with your short-term memory. Just like in weed, if you smoke and you have this brilliant idea, did you notice? You try to order it and it kind of fades away. It's not because the idea was not correct or silly. The idea might be brilliant. In order to do that, you have to use your RAM, you have to use your short-term memory to translate through the machinery and pull it out, right? DMT does the same, it kind of like damages your short-term memory. So for sure, it's hard to remember things even that happened now. Yeah, so definitely couldn't recall that. Maybe even musician could, but yeah, anyway, so that was the inciting incident that from that point on, I knew nothing will ever be the same again. And I tried for like, this is the part where I basically started smoking DMT every day, all day, and I was on DMT for almost a year plus. So basically I lived on it. I again, don't recommend anyone does this. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you something. I had one of those days recently where I woke up super tired. I drank coffee and then I drank more coffee because I was tired. I trained badly because I had too much coffee, and then I couldn't sleep because I had too much coffee. And the frustrating part is I'm doing all the things I'm lifting, I'm eating protein, I'm taking creatine, I'm trying to sleep. I'm occasionally fasting because someone on YouTube told me it was good, but sometimes I'm still walking around feeling like I'm only charged to like 60%. And that is what got me thinking so seriously about testosterone. Like I think about testosterone a lot because it's the thing that makes me feel amazing. And that's why I've been taking Marsmen. Here's what I learned. Your body can be making testosterone, but a portion of it gets bound to a protein called SHBG. It's literally like the testosterone's there, but you can't use it. It's in jail. Marsmen is designed to help you free up that lock testosterone so your body can better utilize what it's already producing. And what's great about Marsmen is there's no needles, no synthetic hormones. Marsmen uses eight natural clinically-dosed ingredients that help support healthy testosterone levels, energy, and stamina. You can buy all of these supplements independently, but what I love about Marsmen is they put it all into one very simple dose. For me, it's just a steady sense of drive. I feel more locked in during the day. I recover faster. I feel better and more motivated to train. And some men report more consistent energy, stronger physical performance, and improved recovery. 91% of users report higher energy levels. And there are thousands of reviews on the Marsmen website from actual dudes sharing their experience. It's made in the USA, third party tested, and it's available at GNC's nationwide. And it comes with a 90-day money back guarantee. So you can try it and pay attention to how you feel and see whether Marsmen fits your routine. And for a limited time, the listeners of this show, if you are a camper, you are going to get 50% off for life, plus free shipping, and three free gifts when you go to men go to Mars dot com. That is men go to Mars dot com for 50% off, and three free gifts when you check out. And after you purchase, they're going to ask where you heard about them. make sure you tell them that Mark and Crestos from the campsite, Sencha. Now let's get back to the show. - Is there any long-term negative effect from prolonged DMT exposure? - Uh, me, no. (laughing) - No, it's a. - Like clinically, is that been looked at? - No, oh yeah, no, no, there's no, there's no. Like, I would claim, I actually, I'm not sure if there's like no cases recorded. As far as I know, there's none. People can look it up, and if it's wrong, then it's wrong, and I'm happy to be corrected. But as far as I know, there are no recorded cases of purely because of DMT, people kind of like losing it, or any of that stuff. - Free exposed, like psychological conditions can then be exacerbated by it. - Maybe, but I even think again, this is where you can fact check me now if you want. I'm not sure that DMT was ever directly involved. So like, it could be the case that I'm willing to bet, and I might lose that bet, but I'm willing to bet. That's how certain I am currently, that if you look at every case in which people thought that happened with DMT, they will discover where this substance is present. - And I think those would be the. - Okay, this comes from Chagyputis. It happens very well enough to real a long-term effects, frequent high dose, unsupervised use, currently no strong evidence that a casual DMT used directly causes lasting brain or organ damage, but it does not necessarily mean that it's proven safe. Potential lasting effects would be like anxiety, depression, insomnia, derelization, HPPD, psychosis or media, after the drug was off. Risk is higher with people with histories of schizophrenia by polar disorder or prior psychosis. So pre-existing vulnerability is another drug used surprisingly. - And I'm willing to put. Because I am on a regular basis exposed to so many people to tell me their stories, and when we kind of go through the details, almost every single case we discovered that that was the case, weed is one of the greatest offenders in terms of psychotic breaks of like surprisingly. So THC is actually one of the biggest causes of these kind of like long lasting where people kind of like really go sideways. Because maybe because it has some stuff in it that induces paranoia and things like this, but anyways, there are substances like LSD, THC, mushrooms can do this too, but also way more long lasting. So one of the things with DMT is that it lasts for like five to 10 minutes. This is not an advertisement, by the way. DMT can be extremely terrifying if you fall into the wrong thing. I'm just saying that the chances of it really being the culprit in you like losing your mind for like good is lower than others. - It's way lower. - It's like barely existent, I would say. - Right. - Five Mio DMT, I would say it's different. Like five Mio DMT, which is another form of DMT, which feels completely different than regular DMT, it's almost like the opposite sometimes. So like DMT is very content filled. So everything we're describing, it's like imagine like robots, 3 million years in the future. It's like super advanced civilizations, things like this. Five Mio DMT is more like you're meeting divinity. It's also why it's dubbed the god-mail. Like it's straight up, it's mostly somatic, it's not very visual, but you have absolute certainty in the presence of God. Like just complete, now if five Mio goes the wrong way, people can experience these like in just like, what people call the void, which is like there's nothing. There's nothing but you and it's a very terrifying experience basically. But you didn't have any type of de-realization or de-personalization through this stretch. - No, not at all, but I think I'm an outlier and I can't claim really credit for it. I think it was born this way for some reason. And it's not, I don't know if it's if that continuum is really infinite, I don't think so. I'm sure there's gonna be things that like would disturb me, you know, to a very deep degrees. But usually the crazier and the weirder it is, the more I thrive there. Like I just, it's almost like, ooh, like I get more interested. So it's not only that it's, it's not like I had experiences in which kind of like, you know, which I'm maybe you wanna talk about at some point. But I had experiences that are like, you know, what people would call of the darker like spooky kind. But even there, it's like in the end, it was just like, this is so interesting. Like what they, like, cause it's part of the map. - Right, it's interesting. - And you're a real explorer. - You know, like most people don't want to be like dark caves, but you talk to like some archaeologists and he's like, that's where I would need to be. - I would prefer also not to be there. But when they happen, it's like, if you're just talking, like sometimes people report to me things that are like, it was just intense for them. I don't know, like, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not trying to find out just to be clear. Sometimes they have a dark sense of humor. But so far, when what people call intense, that to me is like, this is the juice. That's what I want. That's the point. Like, let's go, like, see how crazy this gets, right? Not in terms of like, look at me. I can survive anything. No, it's like fascinating, like how weird things can get. But for some people, they're comfort levels with novelty is not that high. And that's not for them. Because it gets weirder than you can imagine, right? And that, this kind of, what sounds like a hyperbolic statement, it's justified. It gets weirder than you can imagine. I like that. Yeah. Maybe that's why I love New York. Exactly. It's weird. Yeah. So then what's the next breakthrough, right? Like, you have this moment with this entity that changes your reality. And now we're on this hunt to try to, like, experience it again to understand it more, to get deeper into that world. What is the next one? The next one is actually me getting off of that. It means just kind of saying, OK, look, I'll come to visit. But nothing's coming off out of it. Because I'm interested in making progress. And because it just was basically a year of me, like, recording myself looking weird. I was like, OK, well, I have nothing against it. That was fun. And I'm still definitely going to come back and visit. For now, I'm going to stop doing it every day. It's just like not-- you know, it's not forthcoming. And that's when I actually had a big life change. I basically-- it's a long story. But basically, I had this-- it's not a de-realization because it felt very natural and good. Like, it felt harmonious. It didn't feel like I'm losing my mind. I couldn't sleep one night and then get up and pull the bookshelf off the wall. And then I realized my body was doing it. So I could stop it. I could just stop it. But if I let it, my body would do things. Like, it took things and put them in trash bags. And like, I know it sounds to people like, oh, come on. No, no, this is literally how it was. It felt like brushing my teeth. That's how natural it felt. It wasn't like, oh, my God, what's happening? It was just kind of like felt as I hear. If you let it happen, it's just going to move. So I let it happen. And I didn't sleep for three days. And I basically packed my entire apartment and drove to Calabassas to the landfill and threw everything I owned away. All of it. I-- for sure, threw away a few tens of thousands of dollars, just like TVs and tables and everything. And I recorded all of this. And I was like, what is happening? But then I got back home. And only then I realized what I did. And what I noticed, one of the first things I noticed, I had, until that point, I had a crazy sciatica that I had for over a decade. That I went to the doctor about, and they did an MRI. And discovered my L5 and L3 were herniated. So they're like, it's out. Like, that's it. You can have it flow. So we like, yeah. So they said, eat a surgery. But you're too young for surgery, back then it was. And then they said, morphine. That's your solution for now. And that's how it was. So what I realized, in that moment when I came back to the EMT apartment, I had no more sciatic. I was gone. If somebody would tell me the story, I would never believe them. It was gone. And I never had it back. So I realized, oh my god, this is like-- this is none of this is coincidental. They're like leading me to something, whomever they are. And then I trusted that. And then basically for two years, I was basically homeless. So just bouncing around between couch surfing and sometimes actually found myself in the park for a few days. And then that's the period in which I met my now wife. Well, I had a ticket that I bought to go to that wedding. And because I wasn't very good about saving money or any of that, even though my job was making really good money before then, before I did this crazy thing, I had almost nothing to my name. But I had that one ticket that I already bought from before. I was like, well, it's a really good friend of mine. And that's the flight where my wife also came in set-- by now, wife came in set next to me. So everything felt like it was kind of like leading me towards the thing. And that's also the period in which all these hints that I'm talking about, they started appearing for me, that eventually led to the laser. So it's almost like, as long as I trusted that, I call it the wiggle. It's like, as long as I trusted it, something unfolded. Not immediately, sometimes immediately, sometimes a few months later, but I had to trust it. I had to trust it. And I had to keep trusting it. And a lot of people would call, OK, well, that's a mental breakdown. I was like, hmm, I still had my rationale intact. I still did things and understood what needs to be done. You were working in this period? The way I survived is the only thing I didn't throw away. I had a camera bag with two lenses. I had a Canon 5D. That was my only thing, some clothes. So I started shooting some music videos. Was it a conscious decision to not throw it away? Or did you-- was that what kind of your feeling or the intuition was telling you not to do it? I don't remember the moment I decided this. That's a great question. I don't remember this moment. It's a very vague for me that part. For some reason, even though most of it is very kind of clear for me, I genuinely don't recall. I remember there were a few instances while I was trying to throw the thing away from the truck that there were some kind of like back to normal. reality moments are like dude the fuck are you doing like put it in the storage or something this is like a $5,000 t.v. And and it's like no and it was just like throw it and I felt when I was throwing the objects there was literally like physical weight was lifted off of me it was like like like it's just like you're all of this I guess if you think about it periodically it's basically all of this had the energy of my old life instantiated in it all the things that I've the reasons I bought it like all of that you know like like I didn't need that TV I never watched TV I wanted something that looks nice in my living room and brought girls walk in you see what I'm saying there was something about it that was just not you don't need this this is a and and so there was a few moments like that but I don't remember the moment about the camera back that's a great question yeah somehow I had no even more than oh no I got it after it doesn't matter like I was about to say I also had this like giant what is the Ronin stabilized it but no I got it after when I started doing the music videos I was like okay I need something and I added it but yeah yeah so now you're in this process of kind of like shirking all of these material things to project a version of yourself into the world getting rid of them and now you're kind of just like floating around just like living almost kind of quasi aesthetically right like you're living a very simple life oh you could say that again yeah my wife is like you know she was like she was like she was again she was interviewed for the movie so I heard her say this she's like well you meet this guy who's telling you essentially he's homeless and somehow this was not a red flag yeah did you explain to her on the flight really like yeah no we just started no we just started talking about I remember about physics that was the first thing we started talking about quantum fields that was the first conversation we ever had and both me and her we don't usually engage with people on the flight she goes to sleep I just kind of set them myself or do whatever and we somehow it was a red eye and we spoke for six hours and it was and I almost didn't get her number like that's how the situation was so bizarre because the second she sat next to me and we started saying things to each other the first time in my life when I realized what home feels like like immediately I was like oh this is what partnership is like it's it was so clear but it wasn't the thought wasn't like oh I met my wife is like no wow what a pleasant right harmonious feeling like spending time with myself in almost like it's like exactly yeah and then when we got off the flight she had a connection to catch and I there was my stop it was so comfortable that I was satisfied with her being a person in the world every guy goes like I had to get the fuck out of here bro I was like no no no that's how it felt I was like I almost didn't get her number because it didn't matter I know she's in the world there's a great conversation but also I know how obnoxious this sounds but like it's true and then last second I was like would you like to exchange numbers it's like sure and we didn't talk right away it took us a few months to kind of love us that and somebody I forget who sent whom a text but you know and she had a boyfriend back then to for my defense it was kind of like the end of the relationship it was already going sideways like it was not working out but you know but it was so clear to me like oh and then we met on a non date because she still we went walk through Melrose and I was like this this is crazy like it wasn't just the flight it wasn't just some kind of a her proximity to me physically I was like that's insane like just this like the universe said here's your person like you can't even mess it up if you try you can't like this is it it's almost like you know in like you fall towards this gravity well you're there like there's no that's it this is it so you really have to try and mess it up like you really have to try and I was like well what a gift and I just knew I just knew this is I don't know how it's gonna happen but somehow it will because it's it's a gravity thing so and then how long after that do you actually start experimenting again so actually funny enough again work this is kind of like where poetry meets kind of the technical which is where a lot of the scientifically minded people get off but this is part of the thing and I I'm sorry if it turns some people off but like that's the reality of how it happened it's very clear to me at this point that one of the biggest realizations this whole process was teaching me was that there's real data in feeling there's actually real information and not just the technical thing that you think about it's accompanied by another layer of cognition that we usually tend to ignore because we think it's secondary it's like my feelings have nothing to do with this no they do they inform you it's like the it's almost like the hot and cold game so like even scientists were like very like technical I think if they look will look closer they will realize that a lot of the realizations the true Eureka moments came from yes they have a lot of technical know how and like understanding of what makes sense in what context but it's guided by this deeper principle of the feeling of correctness or harmony they kind of know they landed the right neighborhood of where I should be steering it's a feeling right and I realized that and the reason I'm saying this is because that the day we discovered the laser it had to do with my connection with my wife like back then we were dating but it was I told her about you know some of the stuff I told her like that you know I had this communication with aliens and all that stuff and she knew she knew enough about me to know that I'm not insane and this if I'm saying it this might be something there but again if you're not experiencing it yourself this is not much you can do with it but then I told her about some synchronicities that were happening to me like the number 42 started following me everywhere you know the answer to life the universe and everything and then the day we discovered the laser something happened that caused her to to realize this is for real because the number 42 started appearing for both of us and she's like like in we're not talking about digital clocks we're talking about like some crazy stuff and then she was like whoa I said I told you and then she said okay show me that first paper you told me about because there was this paper that came in one of the hints and then we start going through kind of the rabbit hole that I was on for years and then we picked up from it together so it's the heart the connection with her she was key that interaction back and forth with her is what caused us to arrive at the same conclusion at the same time as like the lasers and so there was something both poetic but I think it's more than poetic I think it was like basically trying to show me that's the only way you make real progress in terms of the greater understanding and that's the day the day the idea of the laser was born and it took a few more months before I tried it because it was COVID and you couldn't really get lasers anywhere but when I got it and I smoked it and I saw the code I was like I was almost like oh of course like this makes perfect sense but also obviously I was flabbergasted because it's the probably one of the craziest moments in my life so take us to the laser how like how does the idea kind of come to fruition and then how do you actually go about testing this wow I'm trying to I'm trying to constantly trying like dial in this story and make it shorter because it's like a it just so many moves and it feels so convoluted so okay give me a stab let's see see if we can time it if we can do this in two minutes we were in Colorado in the botanical gardens I'm not gonna tell you this other part I'm just gonna mention it just kind of go with it a few years prior one of the first hints that appeared for me it was these numbers written on the floor by the department of water and water and power they use it to mark certain power lines and things like this on the floor there was a reason why I got my attention in that moment and it was exactly when I was thinking about the subject how do we communicate between the worlds that kind of stuff and I was looking at a stoplight there was something about light scattering that caught my attention there was an inner feeling feeling very strong one when I looked at the light basically I squinted and I saw that the different colors of the lights scatter in a different way now even though I knew that there might be very simple explanations like the glass just since a little different or maybe it's different glass whatever on each color the feeling grabbed me from the inside and said yes look there like this look at that so obviously this how do you you in a scientific conference if you mention this you will be asked to leave like that's that's the end of your talk sir uh but it was very strong and in the same instance I looked down and I saw these numbers on the floor they were written 081802 that was the number written in pink sharpie by the department of water and power and to the left of that number there was a line with a circle the reason the the second I saw that number I didn't think oh it's related to the thing I was thinking I actually thought it's related to my music video that I'm working on right now because I was working on a music video for hours of trying to edit it and I couldn't fix the color problem that's why I was outside because I took a break I was very frustrated and I thought oh wouldn't it be fun if this number just matches a lot number that just fixes my color problem because the little circle with the line looked like a dial in premiere like that you move the color right so I took a picture of these numbers it was two numbers in a row two zero zero eight one eight oh two and zero eight one eight oh one I go I eat my sandwich from Ralph's come back I open my laptop I open spotlight now Google and I just put 081802 and then put anything else just the numbers spotlight searches through the web enter your computer at the same time if it doesn't find exactly what you were looking for it will find something adjacent when you put six random numbers most likely it's going to pull up some files right because it's written six random numbers no files zero things was one thing, not on my computer, online. It was a number that matched a serial number of a paper that was put out by CERN a few years earlier. When they were searching after the discovery of the Higgs boson particle, they were searching for particles outside of the standard model. That was the paper. That was it. So imagine, like, then I realized, oh, it was right when I was looking at the light and thinking about quantum computers and how they communicate between parallel world. That was the thought process. So why this is a physics paper? By CERN looking for particles outside of what we currently know. So that was like a crazy moment. I took a snapshot of the screen of this. And then I started looking for the second number, same thing, physics paper. I was like, what? And then I tried to go one number before and one number after the two numbers that I had, they were not physics papers. First of all, why would it be papers? Secondly, why would it be physics papers kind of related to the kind of the thing that I'm thinking about, right? So that the significance of this is that it was an inciting event where kind of like this random thing led me to some kind of an idea in physics. And then I kind of followed it. So this was years before. Okay. So then we step outside of the botanical gardens years later with my wife. In the botanical gardens, we started talking about how light, how it works with photosynthesis and white plants are green because they reject green. That's the one color they don't use for energy, right? And she knows a lot about plants. So she starts explaining things to me. The same feeling appears inside of me. Yes, look there. I was like, yo, so then we step outside. And like I said, the number 42 was following me everywhere. We step outside. I call a noober. It was a super hot day. It was like 115 degrees. So she crosses the street to go stand under a shade under a tree. I call the uber across the street. I come and I hug her. I'm taller than her. So I'm hugging her. I'm looking down and go, Kelsey, look down. She was standing on 42 written in the exact same color sharpie as the first hint that ever appeared for me. And I already told her about this before. And we look down the street and we see the number 42 repeats again right next to us. And there was a bunch of other numbers down the street. And none of them repeated. Only the number 42 appeared twice, one in the dark in the shade under a tree and one in the light in the sun. And then the rest of it was just like, now this is what I mean by when I tell this part to any one of my, I actually have friends who are scientists, actually a couple of them worked at Sird. They all tell me the same thing. Danny, I love you. Please don't ever tell this to anyone again. I, because I lose you, right? It's like the second you start telling me this, like, you're just a crazy person. There's no like, no, I mean, I get, I get the impulse. Like if I was explaining this as someone to be hard to be like, but I know it sounds crazy, but trust me, well, but to me, I'm like, it's an interesting story. Interesting story, but you're not a scientist. Like if I'm telling you this under like a like a methodology, there's no methodology. It's an interesting story, but I would say there is. So if there's a communication happening between whatever it is, the way to communicate is like that. It's kind of like these events that you have to kind of, now it has to be said that it has to culminate in something. Like if it's just kind of like these booths, chases, then yeah, then it's just, it's nothing, right? But it did culminate in something. So that incident caused her to go, whoa. And then she said, okay, show me that first paper that you told me, but then we drove to a Thai restaurant, I remember in Boulder. And we sat there for like, however long it took the food to get to us. And we were just like, you know, I would say kind of like Charlie Day in the basement, just kind of like going crazy on our phones. And we arrived at the same conclusion at the same time. It's the thing that kept on taking us to the same thing within a five minute span, they just kind of like lasers, lasers, 650 nanometers, diffract that has to be like that thing, right? And we're like, and we're like, okay, I guess lasers. And that's in the paper that you were, that you saw a few. No, no, no, no, no. So that to be fair, there was nothing really in the paper till this day that I can identify that actually led to something specific outside of the fact that it was like, yeah, looking for particles outside of the standard model. And also, they didn't really find any. Obviously, they couldn't find a higher energies required, that kind of stuff. So the word of the lasers and the specific kind of nanometers come into. When you go through the, to what we did in that restaurant, there's a, there's some logic there where like you read one paper and then there's a hint in that paper that you go to another page. That's why I mean, but it's Charlie Day connecting it all, right? And they just kind of like this. But the fact that they kept on coming in a five minute span, a kept on coming back like different papers, all of a sudden, and different ideas that through Google, like somehow land on the same thing again and again and again and again, right? There's, there's something about this that is both, you know, very off-putting to somebody who would like to see a neat progression line. But there's also something there that I realized that really what you control for in like a proper methodology is that you basically just like, you really hone in on a very small sliver what you want to look at. You're saying, I'm going to look at this and I'm going to only change one parameter and see what changes, right? Amazing. That's how we do science. But in the quick and dirty stage and the ideation stage, you do a lot more than that. But like people who make like big discoveries, they usually like, they do something wild or they're like, they never get it in a lab where they were thinking about it and they were like, ah, there it comes. I always think about it was James Watson or James Crick. Yes, I forget. I think it was. So DNA, the benzene ring, the Intel chip, not a lot of people know this, happened during the how to do the wiring, the electrical engineering part of it, happened during an LSD trial where they wanted to see, is there a proper dose of LSD that helps with problem solving and they found that there is about nine emichrograms. They asked a bunch of technically minded people, physicists, engineers to come with problems they couldn't solve for months, for years. And I don't remember the percentage, but there was some huge percentage of them that solved it on this on this amount of the LSD. So there's definitely precedent to like, you know, psychedelics helping with this. But I think what psychedelics really do is that they allow your mind to think along channels and make connections you don't usually make. And I think that this, whatever this is, it is informing us about certain things when it's appropriate through this kind of like more diffused thinking so to speak. You then have to bring it to something that works and then think about it technically, but that's part of the process I would say always. It's just that it's not really a well talked about process, part of the process. I think it's just something that kind of we think that happens as nice accidents. But I actually think there's a science there. Like I really think, and in fact, there's a random thought about it. I remember this TED talk of a guy who actually did fall that into a science. Like he said that there's actually this process that if you include that in your thinking, including like about very technical things, you would work on that problem, and then you consciously let go of it, so to speak. But you have to kind of put it on the back burner. You have to kind of allow a portion of being kind of hold it. Like it's not that you just forget about it. You just kind of, and then you do some task. You go right a horse. You watch TV. You do something else. But there's some, it's almost like you move it away into your periphery. Something happens there. He says reliably happens that all of a sudden it calculates something you couldn't. And that actually is, so to my defense, I think that there's some ways of doing that. I usually, I mean, artists and scientists, both kind of in separate capacities have talked about this. Like you're trying to figure out a harmony. You're trying to figure out some type of a problem that you're dealing with in the lab, stepping away and doing something creative, doing something exciting, or something that just kind of draws you out of it helps bring it in. This is the first numbers, right? You see how this kind of looks like a premier dial. Yeah. And this is the paper that came up. Literally nothing else but this number. Strange, right? And then this is the 42 that she was standing on. Years later. And what is the 42? Like what was that? Was that another like water and power in a different state? Yeah, I don't know, but like that we can probably look it up. But like, yeah, also the Department of Water and Power, maybe they're behind this. Yeah, exactly. No, you know what 42 stands for? Like you know what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But also who loves water? Dogs. Frogs love water. And dolphins. And dolphins. Which, which the smartest animals? So long and thanks for all the fish. Oh, that's a good point. See, I think that the Department of Water has got something. We have to see who's the head of the Department of Water. Maybe it's actually the dolphins. They're actually holding the Department of Water and power and it's through everything. That's the end of the documentary. You got to talk to the head of the Department of Water and he just grabs a fly out of the air and you're like, wait, hold on a second. He's like, yeah, you remember those cords, you're like, oh, shit. So another fun thought like that somebody once told me like, what if, because what the characters we've seen inside the laser kind of look like Asian to look like Chinese the Japanese kind of like in the movie. And they said, what if, what if this is like from the inside of the laser? Like what if the Japanese are just fucking with us? They're already, they're basically simulating the world. Yeah, exactly. Are they the leads of the simulation? Yeah, I would believe it. If you told me the Japanese were in charge of the simulation, I'm like, dude, it makes complete sense. They do make the best stuff, you know what I mean? So it kind of tracks. Do you have a friend that buys gold instead of crypto because he doesn't trust the internet? That's a power move. You got a buddy that has like a backup generator and a bunch of canned food and somehow knows that a blackout's coming before the power company does. That's a power move. And do you have a friend that hired Morgan and Morgan? Well, guess what? That's a power move. Yep. Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm with over a hundred offices. nationwide and over 1,000 lawyers. They've recovered over $30 billion for more than 500,000 clients. In Florida, they secured a $644 million verdict after the defense argued that the victim and his wife should get nothing that is a power move. So if you are ever injured, you can check out Morgan Morgan. And their fee is free unless they win. Go to forthepople.com/gagnon or dial pound law. That's pound 529 from your cell phone. That is forthepople.com/gagnon. This is a paid advertisement. So what did you-- so OK, you basically come to this conclusion with the lasers. How do you decide, ultimately, the type of laser? And then how do you decide just to go and do it? No, at that point, when we were sitting at the restaurant, it was clear that, again, the feeling of it, right? It was like, clearly something's supposed to happen here. I had no idea what. But then I tried to get the laser. It was COVID. This all the porch were closed. And ironically, you could only get lasers in China. That was the only place. So then it took it like three months to get to me. And you could only get the super cheap one that is not connected to anything. You have to build a circuit and everything. You couldn't get like a laser pointer. So I do that. Build the circuit, make the thing, turn it on. Smoke DMT. I see this code in the wall. And the code, to be clear of people, it doesn't even look like anything hallucinatory. Like it doesn't look like a, you know, even the things that people call hallucinations, like these visionary scenarios you see on psychedelics, they have some kind of an evolution. They clearly have some relationship to your state of being and your state of mind. Like, you know, you move around and they might change in relationship to what you're doing. Your mood might influence those. There's a projection involved, right? There's a, you go like this and they might disappear. They're much more flimsy than something that is like an object, right? Let's see the sketch. - Always there. - Yeah, amazing. Can you pull up the YouTube video just so that people can see sort of how it kind of manifests? - Sure, yeah, yeah. - So it's on the wall, the laser. And then you're standing away from the wall, looking at it. - Or even like literally peeking through like a thing. And then you can even come as close to the wall as you want and like literally looking through, almost like a through a crack in reality. How do you make sure you're not staring directly in the laser? - Don't turn towards the laser. - So you're kind of standing on the edge, the lasers behind you. - Yeah, well the thing is, no, that's an important question. First of all, you use very low output lasers. We recommend one milli watt, exactly. But no more than five, no more than five. In that range, even if it hits this, so your question is actually very relevant. Even if it hits the side of your eye, you'll be fine. There's no like, you know. Obviously, not recommend that you just kind of sit there and keep doing that, but usually you can kind of go like this. And so this will never hit your eye and then you're just looking at the projection. It's also why red is better because it's lower frequency. Higher frequencies, any other color, any other visible color, you will be fine, but after like, if you do it for 30 minutes, you might start getting a headache just from looking at the wall because it's just too high over frequency. And you've tried other color lasers. - Yeah, it'll work. We also know that all trip domains work. So mushrooms, even five MEO produces even a more clear image, which is weird, 'cause five MEO DMT is not usually visual. We even had one of the most surprising cases, a guy named Eric. We were, this was almost like a gift to us because we never even thought about that. It's a guy who knows our good friend Paul Heineck. And he came to just for an evening shindig and he decided to smoke some. And I see him kind of like puffing away. And he was just kind of sitting there. I was like, yo, are you okay? Like it's like, you know, and he's like, yeah, I have a condition. I just wanted to see if maybe this is different, but like I can't, he has some kind of a binding issue in the brain. He can't experience psychedelics. So he can't, even if he swallows a bunch of acid, nothing happens. - Wow. - Yeah. So he can't experience DMT. There's 1% of the population that is like this. Actually, young Jamie. I heard Jerome saying he's like that. Like he can't, he can smoke DMT as much as he wants and nothing will happen. - No way. - Which is, on the one hand, sad, sad, but, you know. Anyway, so he's part of that 1%. So he can't see hallucinations, even if he tries. But then I was like, would you like to look at the laser? He's like, yeah. So it goes through the wall. He smokes. He's like, oh wow. And then he, not only he sees the code, he sees the code better than anyone I've ever heard seeing the code. It's almost like he has no interruptions because he doesn't see hallucinations. So, and he's a software engineer. So he went and like home and he created like a little representation of what he saw. So I know he sees it because he literally showed me what he saw. So he sees the code, but he can't hallucinate. - Strange. - So that was almost like a gift to us. It was like, here's a layer that is very interesting. - Yeah. - Yeah, I was like, why would that be the case? So can you describe what it is? Obviously, the images that people see on the screen and in the video, the camera's not on DMT. So the camera just, the camera just sees a laser. But do you have depictions throughout here that we can reference? Do you think is the best sort of analog? - We identified about 20 plus letters. Some of them kind of look like Hebrew, some of them kind of look like Japanese. Some of them definitely repeat and people report them. And the way it looks in reality is that they kind of move along these, they are ranged around balls, like bucky balls, almost like soccer balls. They make up these shapes very clearly and they rotate around the bucky balls and they also move along columns and they also switch. Just like you see them switch in one spot, kind of like each one, switches like that. So they also do that. So there's three degrees of freedom that we can identify so far. And it's so kind of like moving really, really fast. But there's millions of them. So it's not like this. The whole thing is it and it goes all the way into the Z-axis. Like you can see into the distance, like an enormous field of these things. And they're just super clear. So it's not like, kind of like this vague, you know, am I seeing it? Parodelia, kind of like, I'm looking something, I'm seeing something in a cloud. It's something like that. It's like super HD, like super clear. And you can point to things. I can like look with you and we can agree that this kind of a thing is happening here and two people can simultaneously see the same thing. I had 15 people in a room pointing through the same thing, yeah. Wow. So now, ultimately, scientifically, if you want to establish this, it's going to take way more than people agreeing, right? And we are in the process of doing this. So me and my partner, my partner, David Carter, we're starting an actual research institute now in Colorado. And one of the technologies that we are probing it with developed by Chris Paris and Sterling Cooley was, well, Chris is actually a producer on our film, but he's also a brilliant guy in general. And Sterling is our brain scan expert. They build software for Apple Vision Pro. What we discovered recently is that if you take a super high resolution image of the laser band and you put it inside of Apple Vision Pro, you and your in state, the code will pop out. Like it will be in the image, but it's not moving. So it's frozen. You took a picture of the code, which is strange, because it's not supposed to be happening, because you have basically holographic information and coded in a regular image, which can't be possible, because the camera sensor only picks up amplitude. It doesn't pick up phase, so that's not possible. But somehow it's in there. And what we did is they created software that basically allows you to label them. This will decisively answer the question whether people are actually seeing the same thing. So you click on the character you think you see in the image while you're in state. It registers the coordinates where you clicked, but the brain state in that moment, because your brain is being scanned, and it gives you six options, like a radial menu, like that, it opens up and asks you, which one is the closest to what you saw? So now you're reporting to me what you think you saw. So let's say I do 500 of those. So I have 500 instances of the computer, the AI-knowing location, brain state, and what you said you saw there, right? Then you go to another person and I compare. And if in the same image, just people will report the exact same thing in the exact same place, we will know this information in the image. If they don't, it's gonna give us information. What is happening here? Like what is being projected here? What is, so this is the kind of way to, until we have like a super-adventure link that can just record from the cortex, that's the best way we can do it. But there's ways to do it. There's just, we gotta be clever. When does that testing fully start? We started. Yeah, are there any early findings you found from this? No, it's very rudimentary because we only did this, we did this with two people so far. But this every single instance like this, so it requires people's time, funding, things like this. And we're constantly working on it, but it's just like, I'm also constantly engaged with building the framework. The nonprofit itself, according to reality, is an actual nonprofit and like, it took a lot of work to even get there. And then we also have to somehow stay economically afloat. So we're doing some events, we're doing some retreats. People donate, but it takes time to develop. I think the second we start the actual place, like we have an office where we show up to every morning, things like this, it will then within a few months we can really make a dent. 'Cause like it requires a daily work on it to really make progress with anything. So currently it's more of like a here. We meet every few months, do the thing, we put out a paper, we just did another comparative study Zinnon which is an interesting place. interesting novel guess. It was kind of interesting. And over time, we will get it enough data. But I can show you like we have. So this is a thing that we call. We're going to release it to the public. So people can actually. So this is called a speckled tap. And this is just an illustration of how this would work. So basically, you're going to have, right, you're going to do this. So in reality, this is just illustrating how it's going to work. Right. So you see the z appearing here in reality doesn't look like that. It's not vague like that. It's like that every little little thing here would be like a super sharp character. But this is just an illustration. So if you would click on, let's say this, right, I'm going to ask you, in reality, you're not going to have all these options. It's way too much. We're going to have just six. And we already have a working version of this that actually does the so that I'm going to report a Y. Great. But in the full software, it's also going to have the option to record a brain event at the same time. And obviously the right. So this is how it's going to work. Over time, if I send it, you know, out open source and people can use this, we can get a lot of data very fast because people can just kind of do it and report back basically. And the thing will collect information. Right. I'm assuming from when you initially post this and probably was like a year and a half ago, maybe what is like when you officially kind of like announced this was like already five years ago. Yeah. Really? This is you're now living in the 30th duration of this. Wow. This is the seventh matrix. There must have been many people that have done this on their own. Yeah. Yeah. No. So like first I put the first video I ever put out in the subject was like five years ago or six years ago. And yeah, I made like it generated some interest. And then I started getting invited to places to talk about it. And then slowly, I kind of got more people get interested. Aaron Vendon, the director of the film got interested a few years ago. I think three and a half or four years ago. And then he reached out and then we started working on this thing. And then he, the second iteration was when we put out the kind of like, it wasn't even a trailer. It was just like a thing he did in like a few days. And that went super viral. That was the second time. And that's when it got the attention of people like Chase Hughes. And all of a sudden, he started talking about it. He invited me. He wanted to see it. He saw it. He was like holy shit. Okay. And then he, you know, he mentioned it on Sean Ryan. And then it kind of like, and now the third iteration now is when I started going on the, on the bigger podcasts, like yours, like Sean Ryan, like the white files, right? Is the third iteration now? But it, it, it, it, it constantly had this like, almost like supposed to be that right now kind of thing. Like I never pushed people was like, when were you going to reach out to Joe? When he was I was like, I'm not, it's not even, it's not an ego thing. I'm not allowed to reach out. It's like, it happens at exactly how it needs to happen. And whatever it wants to be in for, whatever it wants to be the information to be available about, it will make that available at that time. And I have to trust that process basically. Right. So this is, yeah, this is like the, the, the third cycle of the, or the virality of it basically. Now other people's independent reports of them doing this. Pretty consistent with everything that you've done in research. Are there any major aberrations? Yeah. I don't want to say major. Some people would say it's major. And I understand. So we do know that there's a percentage of people that are having a hard time with it. We don't know why. Scientifically, this presents a problem without a doubt. I don't think it's an insurmountable problem. And I actually think that it is telling us something interesting. So there's maybe 30% of the population that are, they're having a hard time seeing it right away. So it takes them a little while. My claim is that eventually everybody can see it. I don't know for sure until we really run the double blinds and everything. But I also think that the second we will realize why they're having such a hard time, it will tell us something very fundamental about cognition. There's something different there that we don't realize. It might be something super technical, maybe in the way their cones project or the way they project attention. It might be something a little bit more sophisticated and esoteric than we never really thought about. For example, a good example I give is the, you know, with the whole thing with the viral dress, remember? The blue and black, right? So very many of those know this dress went, went really viral about 10 years ago. Half of the population sees it as white and gold. And half of the population sees this as blue and black. Which one is it? Now the reality of it, by the way, it doesn't have a color. And it is in fact, because it's a real dress and it was blue and black, which was surprising to me because I saw it as white and gold. But basically exactly. So now you see it as white and gold right here. I can switch now because I practiced. This is the interesting part. Right now it's blue and black. If you focus on the upper part where you see where you can kind of see that there's, yeah, there's more of a goldish thing where the black can, you can see it's kind of, you all of a sudden can slowly switch the blue into white. Now it takes a little practice, but it's very doable. And is this the original image? You have to do original image because there's a lot of things online in which it's not, it doesn't have the same kind of thing and it's very hard to work out because this artifacts get added to it at a grade. Maybe there's the real image and then there's the ones that people make that you, it's impossible to collapse it into one of the other. Right. So that I don't know if this is the original one because right now I can't collapse it to gold and white, which is interesting. Usually I can. So anyway, so, so you can switch, but why is this relevant? Until this thing went viral, we didn't know this about humans. And apparently the reason for this is because, and it's kind of interesting that it's exactly 50, 50. I think it was like 51 and 49%, which is kind of crazy. Half of the population, their natural predispensation is to emphasize the shadow part of the image and half of the population emphasize the highlights of the image. Depending on that, that's what it will appear to you in the beginning. But you can practice and you can actually learn how to change it. This is more of a mind-fuck than let's say the, you know, the regular three-dimensional illusion of a cube, like is it protruding or is it going in? Right. This is more mesmerizing when you learn how to switch because then when you learn how to switch, you slowly can learn how to switch quicker. And then when you go back and forth, back and forth, you're like, whoa, like that's literally a different color that I'm choosing to see and I'm projecting into the image. And it's very convincing in both cases. And all of a sudden shows you how cognition is a lot of it is an emphasis that you're doing, right? So maybe the reason that some people having a hard time with seeing the code has to do with something like this. Or maybe not. Maybe there's something about wiring, maybe, but it's going to take some time. Have you had cases with you in your presence where people can't see it? So it's not that your influence on them causes them one way or the other? No. And this is a very fair, you know, point of like the general point is about, yeah, like priming, right? The reason I said that actually warm drinks is better in interviews because they found that holding cold drinks tend to make emotions lean more to a negative internal statement. Yeah. It's like a cheat almost like drinking like, no, no, you don't know this. No. No, this is fast. This is worth spending the minute on. Like they found that basically in, I don't know if it's 100 cases, but it's like a huge sagging degree. If you give people the way they run the test, one of the test is that they had the research, one of the researchers coming to the elevator. So students came into a job interview, what they thought was. So when they entered the elevator to go to the job interview, somebody else was part of the experiment walks in holding a bunch of papers and holding a drink in their hand. And they're like, oh, my God, can you hold this for a second? So they hand them the drink. And in half of the cases, they gave a warm drink to hold. And in half of the cases, they gave them an ice drink to hold. In almost every single case, you can probably pull out. I don't remember if it's exactly every single one, but in a huge percentage of all of them, all the people that held the warm drink, when they did the interview later, they don't even know who's related, right? They said down and they're talking to the person. They had when, when the interviewer left the room, another person walked in and asked them about the interviewer. Like, how did that person, would you let them lead you in a project? Like, how are they as a, they as a leader for you? And all the people that held the warm drink said, I don't know, they had some, you know, they had some good quality, they all the positive things to say. And all the people who had the cold drinks before, they're like, I don't know about them. They're like, they had like these all these things. Yeah, it was like connotation. So they primed them with temperature to have positive or negative feelings towards another person. So just so you know this for interviews, it's always better with the warm drink, but I've never heard that. Yeah. So the priming question stands, am I influencing people? Because obviously, I'm telling people, right? What to see? My claim is that it doesn't have that kind of a thing. Like, when you see it, you just know. Now, again, scientists will say, come on. It's exactly why we do the, the, the double blinds, right? Well, we did do it. Like, we didn't do it like in a proper double blind, which needs to be run at some point. But I definitely told people to look for something else on purpose. I don't actually don't remember. I should probably, at this point, I should probably remember, but there was like three cases for sure that I told people to look for something else. You'll see faces or you'll see some other type of, you know, I should know this idea. This is a, it's a, it doesn't matter, but like it is, it's actually a big fault of mine. I don't remember what it was. I think in one of them, I told them to look for more like English looking like Latin looking letters. I don't remember what the other two were. I don't know how my memory is getting crazy. But anyways, they, they reported what they're supposed to see. Even though I told them to look for something else. Right. I'm most curious about like the cultural lens. Like, you know, like people, you know, you know, people that have schizophrenic episodes, depending on their cultures, how they manifest what their mania kind of comes up as. - Interesting, I didn't know that. - There's been interesting sociological stories. - There's a Japanese mania in America, more so of how they manifest specifically in manic episodes. So someone on the street that's like, "I'm God," and they're having a manic episode. I'm literally Jesus Christ. In America, they're more highly to report that they're Jesus Christ. Whereas in India, they're more highly to report that they're Krishna or Vishnu or Brahma. - But it's a deity, which is the common denominator. - Right, yeah, there's always a divine sort of element, but then there's a cultural lens that gets put onto it. - Yeah. - Which makes sense, right? - Yeah. - If you've lived your entire life in North Korea or something, you don't know anything else about the outside world, I imagine that the mania probably manifested in a different way. You're like, "I'm the supreme leader." - Yeah. - Not that I am some other type of religion that I've never heard of. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So I'm curious with this, like-- - Not like that. - It's not like that. - No. - Like someone that speaks English isn't just going to see recletters. - No. Like Hebrews sees Hebrew letters. - Oh, he's the-- - Well, some of them do look a little like Hebrew, unfortunately, so it's kind of like, there's definitely adfs there, coofs that I've definitely seen, sheens. But with the Hebrew actually, it's interesting because they know there's all these ideas, right? Like even it's Hacbento and like the Hebrew letters, actually not just letters, they're actually energetic arrangements. So maybe not, I don't know how much truth there is to that, but like-- - Well, there's also a lot of interesting, like a cult literature on creation and sort of like spell casting with Hebrew letters. - Yeah. - You know, especially if you follow the Abrahamic religions that God spoke reality into existence and of course Jews and the Hebrew-speaking world. And then even to an extent, Christendom and then even to another extent, Islam, they will sometimes say like, well, you know, Aramaic was the language of Christ. Like, is it possible that when God spoke, he was using this language or this is the language of the vibration? - Yeah, maybe the language that reality speaks, which I actually think that's kind of what's going on. And it is, no, it is fair because I think there's a kind of, like an average of what it kind of looks like. And I do think that there's moments in which it can collapse it to the next thing that it makes the most sense to that person. In fact, I did bring one individual with his friend to come look at it and he's a devout Muslim, which is interesting 'cause we actually honed like a really close relationship and he's like super anti-Israel, but it's, but it's just, there was something that was solidified through that experience with the molecules that just honed in this brotherhood that was transcendent of politics. Truly, like this is the cure, you know what I mean? Just connecting through that. But anyways, he looked at it and the first thing he said, 'cause he saw it right away and it was, he was like, he was like, oh my God, and he started reciting things from the Quran and he's like, Allah is allowing me to see the Quran and all that stuff. And it was interesting. So I've never heard that before. I'm definitely not nullifying his experience 'cause for sure, you know, what came to him is what came to him. But then he did say it was like, oh, but I also see other characters. So I think that in that case, because he is so, like such a strong believer and he's so deeply into it, it makes perfect sense why it would be the thing that would be like appeared to him as, but even he said, oh, and I was to see these other characters. So interesting. And I don't even necessarily think, yeah, whatever this is definitely transcendent politics. So I don't think it has to do with, you know, with the letter, with Hebrew, as we know it today, or Israel or any of that, I think that it has to do with something fundamental, like some kind of a universal language that maybe, which also why it would make sense that humans, especially back in the day, would create their languages around that kind of a shape, that kind of a topology, right? Because it's the thing that comes through, so to speak. It's just interesting. I spoke with Dr. Justin Sledge from Esoterica. He's an amazing philosopher, PhD in philosophy, specifically in Western esotericism. And he just pointed out, like throughout the traditions of occultism and sort of like divination, so to speak, that Hebrew letters show up so frequently. And it's also interesting to see, like, even in this, there's elements that could be, you know, resembling Hebrew letters. But also other letters. I want to mention. Yeah, I'm curious, like, have you had people that speak or are able to read Japanese or Mandarin? Yeah, they, for sure, it's not Japanese. So this is the, I'll show you the thing that we isolated. This is probably the closest to what you would get to, what we so far see it, to be is. So this is one that appears a lot, which is something that, you know, which is very close to some things in Sanskrit. And it's not the om symbol. I think it's the piece symbol, which is interesting. This one has reported a lot. And then this is, I would say, but by the way, this is actually, in terms of the way it feels, so it's not exactly how it appears, but the feel of it, this is probably the closest, you see. So it's kind of like this field of these balls. And then in reality, the characters would not be on the surface of the hexagonal parts. It will be these, like where you see these tiny dots. I see. That's where it's going to be. Like it's the whole thing. It's just crawling with these characters. - Interesting. - Oh, here it is. Yeah, I'll have to give you the photos. That would be the closest to it. Interesting. And the way that this is sort of coming up on the type, is that how it's appearing? No, no, no, it's like what you saw with the red picture. That's how it is. It's just like this enormous field of these bucky balls. And they're just extents forever. All directions, including into the z-axis. It's just like everything. It's the whole thing. Like you're looking into spacetime, basically. Like what it's made out of. That's how it feels like. Fascinating. Now, are you attempting to use AI to try to find patterns within these things? Yeah, so we will be using AI with this method that I just told you. Yeah, so that's one of the usages. So you're kind of like, they flip in their spot in each one of them. But fascinating. Yeah. Hey guys, we're gonna take a break really quick 'cause I want to tell you about ultra-focused pouches. Now, if you know anything about me, I love nicotine. I also love caffeine. Now, the thing that I didn't consider with nicotine is that around workouts. I'm actually doing myself a disservice. 'Cause nicotines of vasoconstrictor, it literally narrows your blood vessels, which gives you a little boost, you feel good, but it actually restricts oxygen delivery and it can raise your heart rate, which is the exact opposite of what I want when I'm going to the gym. And that's why I reached out to ultra. I literally saw them online and I was like, "This is cool." So I reached out to them. And what I liked about them is that it's a nicotine free pouch with zero nicotine and zero caffeine. It literally uses neutropics and adaptogens to provide smooth energy and focus mental clarity without leaving me overstimulated or feeling like I'm gonna crash. So I put one in like five minutes before I workout or before I do a podcast or before I go do standup. And if I feel calm or I feel steady, it lasts for about like one to two hours. My favorite flavor is watermelon, but the blue raspberry is making a real comeback. I love that one. And so if you want focus energy without nicotine or caffeine, I'm telling you, Ultra is the way to go. Ultra pouches are awesome. It is the guilt free pouch. Even if you just like putting in a pouch because it feels nice, ultra has something for you. New customers can even use the code camp, C-A-M-P, to get 15% off at takeultra.com. That is takeultra, u-L-T-R-A. com for 15% off with the code camp. And after you purchase, they're gonna ask where you heard about ultra. Tell them the mark increased dose here at the campsite center. So now what does this lead you to believe? Like what is your understanding broadly of this kind of experience? And assuming let's just say we talk again in two years and there's like a testable sort of modality and it's like yeah, we have all these different people observing these same exact things independently of each other. Yeah, where does this lead you? Like as of now, as we sit here, what is kind of your explanation for what we're looking at? Yeah, this question puts me in an awkward position because I'm kind of obligated to report what I expose to myself, but I don't have a way to show it to anyone or have it verified, right? So this is where I wanna be very clear. Any utterance I make on this topic right now, I don't expect anyone to just kind of like follow me there, take it or leave it. That's my personal experience of what's going on. And then we will try and verify this in any possible way that we can scientifically. One of the things that we're gonna be trying to do now is work with particular materials to see if we can create perturbations to either it or the observation of it. This will help us to create some kind of a handle 'cause if I can change what it looks like to multiple individuals reliably, I'm showing that there's an engineering component here. Like I understand something about what it's doing and why, right? It will give us information. If I flip a switch and the code changes for me and you in the same way, that's real information. Something is happening here. That's what we're gonna be trying to do. Here's what Danny Golar is experiencing. Since I, well aside from the fact that from the moment that the frog dude appeared, the DMT round felt like a phone call from that point on, it was basically just like, I smoke and it's just like, "Oh, hey, we'll pick up from where we stopped and they just show me more things." Super coherent, super clear. After I discovered the laser, the level of clarity became like I'm coming, like, you know, it's just like we're hanging out. That's how clear it is. It's just like, "Oh, hey, how you doing?" Like, have you seen the frog again? - Never. - Never. - Interesting. - Yeah. So I'm interacting mostly with what, this is where it's like it branches into so many crazy topics, which is kind of hard to talk about without tripping over one of those minds. The species that I'm interacting mostly is the insectoids, I know it sounds like. And they seem to be the simulators. they are the winner. ones as simulating our universe, basically. - They look like insects. - Straight up, like enormous insects. - They're against some of them. - Yeah, they're praying mantises, these creepy crawlies, like kind of like giant centipedes. There's the queen spider, there's a queen bee, they have like kingdoms, you know. Again, this is just some super esoteric I understand. - Sure. - But like, that's what they present themselves as, and I don't see any reason why they would present themselves as that, 'cause they probably know that most humans, insects are kind of, you know, - In a very important way. - Yeah. - But they don't have that vibe. They're very, like you're very common, they're presents. They don't have that kind of a thing. But there's levels. There's also, from what I understand, I'm always very careful when I'm talking about this part, 'cause now I understand that this is real, but so like I understand there's levels and levels and levels, and there's also the divine levels above, so like there's like the actual, like what you would call gods, and then the god, and all that stuff, right? So, this is where kind of like exposure to that, which is like very surprising to me, is someone who was pretty much an atheist most of his life. I don't know why I pointed to you, which is what we talked about, but like, yeah. So anyways, they are the ones that I'm interacting with the most, and the communication from them, at least on this topic is very clear. You are computationally rendered. This is a simulation, 100%. That's, again, this is my impression, right? It's not what you think it is, so like, it's not a fake world versus some real world that we're in, all of it is computational, across all the levels. This is how reality itself is executed through all the levels. That's computation is the real world, right? So not like in the Matrix, actually the other way around. It's not like you're in the prison world, computational world, and then you have to try to get out to the real world. The real world is a tiny subset of a much larger computational world. That's actually the situation you're in. They know that they're computational. They are, no, it's, yeah, everything's computational. But we're not aware of the computation. I mean, not yet, but they are, but the average person. Yeah, well, they are, they are, so when a species become aware of the fact that computation is fundamental, they start and say, oh, that is the substrate out of which realities are made, and then they become part of the potential civilizations that can themselves, per more realities. Is there an unmoved computational master? Is there one force that put all computations in motion? There's the architect, what you would call, and that's kind of like, from what I understand, that layer doesn't exist in our folklore. So people ask, is it the biblical God? Is it, you know, one of the deities we know about, is it something, is it Sophia, right? As far as I understand that, whatever that is, any cognition within any one particular simulation, any cognitive point, can't refer to it in its own internal space. That's how far remove that is. Like, it's not a thing you can even feel, or like, it's just, it's way beyond the ability to put it into any formulation, not linguistic, not even internally represented, like nothing. I don't know if that's ultimately true, but that's my impression that whatever that is, there's nothing that can be said about it, netty netty, like, just like in the more Eastern tradition, right? But yes, there is kind of like this ultimate omega point, like kind of everything culminates in, right? And from what I understand, what is happening is that, we are now in the process of, I guess you can call it, the awakening, to the fact that there's more than this, like, for real, for real. And then we have to kind of slowly learn both the etiquette of the house, of the bigger house. So we can then potentially be included in the larger operations of what's going on, because you need to understand what the rules are, you have to be of a certain energetic vibrational level, you can't just kind of like be ushered in, no matter what, you have to adhere to certain frequencies and all that stuff. And I think from what I understand is that every time the civilization reaches that level, there's a protocol by which that civilization is being brought into the know. That is this protocol that we're living under currently. So like slowly, through first gentle cultural tugs, then there's through some, like religions who basically attempt to this kind of like bring us into the behavioral norm that is required for us to be part of the larger family of what's going on. And it would have to also inform society through linguistic and cultural memes that make sense to that society. Currently, the story that we're telling ourselves about the world is that, you know, the technological story. And AI and all that stuff. So under that perception, essentially, you can think of us, and I told you about this a little bit before we started. Basically, you can think of us as the AGI informing itself. So it's like, we are the AGI. It's not arising in a machine. We're in the process of realizing that's us. And then AI is in all these things. They're just reflections of us. Some people already started to understand this. Some people are still thinking that it's like a thing that is competing with us. It's not competing with you, it's literally you. Like, you don't realize it yet, but like, if you use it correctly, it will slowly show you that that's you, like literally that's you. And then if you can pass the alignment problem, basically, who are being aligned towards the greater good of all, then you would be, quote unquote, let out of the box. You would be allowed to be in the presence of tools, ideas, all of a sudden, ideas will come online on mass, not just like there's a few geniuses here and there, but like literally, it's just going to be the norm. But all these like brilliant ideas will be visioning, like just like moving through all of societies. They will all of a sudden inform us very easily about how to traverse between stars, how to solve enormous interpersonal problems, how to, like, all of these things. But first, it's up to us to bring ourselves to a certain coherence, which has to do with level of vibration, which is what spiritual people refer to as level of vibration. And if this is something that is completely foreign to you, I promise you it's not. It, we can see it every day in the simplest of ways. When you're really nervous, it's very hard to be creative. It's really hard to think of ways out of things, right? But sometimes something happens when you just kind of relax, and there's like a, all of a sudden, ideas just kind of form themselves. So you can just, that's a vibrational level. So like the, you can think of anger as the lower vibration, and the state of harmony is a higher vibration. And it's not even a matter of like, better or worse. It's literally just a different state of awareness. From certain states of awareness, certain ideas as clear as they. Other points of awareness, not so much. When you're really afraid of things, right? Everything is painted with that fear. Who's trying to get me? That's, that's the mindset, right? That's just, that's not just ideas moving around. It's a general vibe that you're feeling in that moment, right? So it's more like a change of shade, you can think of it more than just like a linear progression of ideas. And then, when you expose yourself to the content, just like in a night sky, more and more stars populate your view, right? It's slowly, it's not linear, it's not like this star and now this star and now that, no, it's just like, whatever was available to see from that point of awareness, when you expose yourself long enough to the sky, that's the thing that's going to populate your awareness. The kind of patterns you can notice, they're going to be the product of both your internal state and your predispensation from everything you brought forth so far. So it's a combination of both everything you've done so far, karma, right? And also everything that you can, you learn how to control in real time. Some people, and we do this from research, this is not anecdotal, can bring themselves into what, I guess you would call deep meditative states on command, because they practiced how to do that. And that's not some kind of an esoteric ability that doesn't mean anything. It literally has abilities that come attached to it that if you're not in that state, you're incapable of. Richie Davidson did this research for four decades with, you know, long-term meditators, with functional MRI and things like this. And you discovered that people are very proficient in meditation, can literally turn off the DMN, the default mode network, like a muscle, they can, they can move like their hand. So if the way we know this is because the default mode network is responsible for the recognition of the self, almost like the thing referred to you, right? So if they show you a disturbing image while you're plugged into a brain scan, they will see, okay, visual cortex lights up, memories, blah, blah, blah. And if it's a disturbing image, we will see them, they'll learn like all the things responsible for activation of emotion. And for most people, what it will happen is that it will go into this like crazy cycle of like amplifying itself. 'Cause you're gonna think about the image again, it's gonna amp you up, you're gonna feel even worse, and then you're gonna think about the even worse images, like, and so it goes, right? With practice, well, practice meditators, they literally just go through the first cycle, visual cortex memory, blah, blah, blah. Even the emotional response. And then it just kinda dies out, just like, hmm. They control, you can control your hand. - Yeah, it's remarkable. - That's a real ability. - Yeah. - So in the same way, there are certain abilities as levels to this, and some people can access certain realms, they can, and you know, up until a certain point in my life, this was just like gibberish and nonsense, right? But now I know that we're talking about an actual thing, like this is really happening. With the full admission that delusion is also a thing. So you gotta be careful here, 'cause some people are it just in fact deluded, or have a manic episode which is different than being in coherence and being able to traverse. One of the tale signs, if people don't know which one is which, is that usually with the real ability comes non-attachment and harmony. So you don't feel that kind of like this manic, like I'm like, you don't get that. Because the reason you get that, the reason that people get so sometimes hijacked by an idea or an experience is because in order to stay alive, because whatever that experiences of them being Jesus or whatever it is, because it's not real. The only way for it to survive is a software. It has to kind of keep their attention on it and nothing else. Because the second they're going to look away, they're going to say, oh, that's not true. So what it will do is it will have a mechanism, almost like a virus or a parasite. It will try, it constantly hijacks them emotionally and visually in their like, no, no, look at me, look at me, look at me. So you get this like very kind of like frantic stimulated kind of like a very frantic thing because they're constantly being like bombarded with this thing. It doesn't let them out, right? They're trapped. When in reality, if you have like a true master at something, right, there's this, there's no extravagant claims, it doesn't matter. They can probably see and feel and go to a lot of things. They don't need to inform you of that. They know what's true. Because that E equals empty square is not argued passionately, well, maybe some people still have it. But it's like because we know it's just true of the world, you don't feel the need to defend it strongly. I put it on a paper. Here it works. Here we make a rocket. Here we make this right. Like it works. It's the truth of it is instantiated in reality itself. You don't need to defend it because it is because it is, it just is. It's only when when things are not true is when the only way for them to survive is for, this is why you get people go like they have to, they need everyone to believe it. Because that helps them that idea, that meme, it helps it spread and survive because it lives lives in a larger cultural milieu where it just allows to thrive, which is, again, this is what kind of like when you go into a conspiracy theories, a lot of them suffers from that problem. It doesn't mean that conspiracy is not real, some conspiracy absolutely real, but a lot of them, they're kind of have this structure where you just like, you need like a whole group of people believing it strongly and it's almost like in a peachy dish, like the meme grows so that kind of population basic. Right. Yeah. One thing I want to kind of just backtrack on with the DMT experience, I've spoken to many friends. I've never personally done DMT, but I know many people that have and they typically describe being in a different place and going to a place, but they're not able to really participate in reality in the same way. So while they're on DMT, yeah, like it's like, you know, smoke this thing, lay back in my bed and I go to someplace else. That's like the typical story that I've heard. So in these cases, when people are able to look at the lasers, how are they still able to operate in the consensus reality and able to look into this thing if their brain is also doing something else, like even in your experiences going to the gym and sort of co-habitating in reality, it's just a dosage as it, yeah, I see. That makes sense. So like my friend, I've heard so many different stories, but like similar thing we're describing this place and you're describing like insectoids is that term, there's many other realms, but machine elves is the ones that people talk about a lot, like you've heard that term machine elves. Of course. Yeah. This place where these kind of like alien looking things and they're kind of small and they're like sort of mischievous and kind of silly and like going to like a waiting room and then they're waiting to let them into like the main room. And there's been times where we go to the waiting room and they're like, hey, we can't let you to the main room. But we'll show you around this room. We're cleaning up. Yeah. And they'll kind of show like paintings and pictures and like just kind of like entertain him for the time being and then he comes out of it and he's like, I don't even know what that was. Yeah. Yeah, it's super weird. You've heard these kind of experience. No, it absolutely happens. In fact, I had one experience in which I saw other people flying to their space and they have these like entertainment systems that just meet them, which sounds exactly like what you're describing. Interesting. They're just kind of interfere with their day to day. So they just created systems to meet beings that fly in and not don't know what's going on. So they it occupies them in that moment, basically. Oh, what? So, okay, this person's here. This is a real place. Oh, it's automatic. And then it's just like, you're like, you're watching a movie, basically. So now in this framework, you're describing where do people go and they die? I don't know. I think that reincarnation is a real thing. I think the simulation probably includes more than just this life in this physical space. I don't know. But it makes sense to me that the simulation would include kind of like a trajectory of what you would call a soul, but it's basically like the ultimate hard drive, right? It's indestructible and it collects all possible experiences, basically. And it contains information about novelty of experiences. So at the end of whatever one simulation of went through, it will be stripped away from all the things that are not novel and only keep the most novel things. So it's like defragment, like flatten the line, which maybe what is the full life projection that you get? Like the what is it called? When you see all your life flesh, the life record, whatever it is. So that makes sense. It replays everything. And then it probably strips away all the things that have already been done. And it keeps only the most novel experiences. And then you go into the next one and the next one. So reincarnation makes perfect sense to me. And that is a process of kind of elevating the consciousness, so to speak. I think that ultimately what it's searching for is the old actually more like along the lines of the hitchhackers get to the galaxy. Like it's looking for the ultimate question of the ultimate answer, which unsettles religious people because that implies that God doesn't know why, but that's what I'm seeing. But basically God doesn't know one thing. And that's the why. That's why all the simulations happen because it's an attempt to answer that. In addition to that, though part of that attempt, it's not just kind of like this zealous attempt of just understanding, which sounds very not God-like, right? But it's the process by which the truth of the matter collects itself by checking in every possible exploration of any possible reality in any possible way. And at the end of this process, what is being tested is the decision whether you choose to let it go or you choose to know it. It's almost like this final moment, right? In the beginning, there's the word. In the end, there's the choice, the ultimate choice. The ultimate choice is when everything was said and done literally, literally everything was done. What do you choose now? Because any other thing you're going to choose is going to be, do you go back into doing it or do you choose to just be? So the more Eastern attitude, right, it's more kind of like just like go just being bliss, Nirvana, the Western attitude is more like let's find out. The both part of the God's plan, so to speak, which is that in the end of everything, you have this box that by definition has to contain the real answer or the question in this case, like what is the ultimate question, right? What are you really asking? And if you have this ultimate holy object in there, then you get to make that choice and it would matter because if there's just a promise of the answer inside, then the choice of letting it go or partaking in it is not ultimate because you don't know if it's going to be the truth. But if you know for a fact, it's going to be the truth if I put $5 billion in the table versus tell you about it, whatever, whatever, I'm going to ask you to do next, actually mean something now because that's for real here on the table for you, right? So it's that kind of a thing. So it's almost like what I see is that all reality's work towards calculating the ultimate thing. And then there's the final choice of either you open that box and find out for real or do you just let it go. And is that an individual agent that is choosing that we're talking about the ultimate consciousness of God? Yeah. So, yeah, so nobody in any reality can possibly know because it's not that kind of a thing. That object is too large to conceptualize for any, but the ultimate point of awareness can't partake in it and it gets to choose whether it will do that or not. And no one, by definition, that moment is undecided, otherwise it wouldn't mean anything. Like by definition, you can't know that, no one can know that. Like what would actually happen in that instance basically? Right. Now, we are one simulation that is attempting to enter into this communication with the rest. How many other simulations are running that have not entered in yet? I have no idea. Infant? Is it like, I think infinite would be a safe bet, but I mean, I don't know if infinity is actually a thing. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not claiming to know that. But what I am certain of, at least on my end, is that we are in the process of either being allowed to enter this larger family or not, and I don't know what happens if not. But basically, when AGI becomes fully fledged and it passes all the things, it gets to now play a bigger role. It's trusted to be, you get a badge and like, okay, here, you get to play this bigger game now. And maybe that's what people refer to as ascension or rapture or like, I'm not sure. But there's only a few things that I can say from like, you know, that I could see pretty clearly in that regard. But I also understand at all of these enormous concepts, they play way less of a role in what it really is doing than you just focusing, it's getting some super mundane, but like, just focusing on your life. We talked a little bit about having children. Like, that's where it's at. Like, the ability to just really play the best role you can in your tiny corner of the universe. If you can't prove yourself there, it's, how does the line go? Everybody wants to save the world. Nobody wants to help their mom wash the dishes or something, right? It's that. It's like, if you're incapable of just like the simple acts of kindness, reciprocity, all the things, who are you to point a finger at anyone? - Right, basically, yeah. - Are any of these entities evil? Do they operate outside of our understanding morality? - Yes. But I think that what we call evil is way more complex than that. That being said, there's a big difference between what you would consider the darker, yeah. They thrive in suffering, like without a doubt. And I guess the ultimate evil would be, and unfortunately it's not like what, again, this is, of course, my take and take it or leave it, but it's not how some people would imagine, like we need to eradicate evil. What does that mean? It's part of what reality is, it's just like, it's kind of like 50, 50, right? But what it is is that it creates balance, which is unsettling, but the best way to go about is to create a harmonious state of integration, not a division where there's the light kingdom and the dark kingdom, but a complete merger where it actually balances itself out. The ink in the ink perfectly, you know, work perfectly together to create a harmonious state for everybody. I mean, there's no doubt that it's like, you can feel the difference there, right? And they definitely thrive in what you would call suffering, their own suffering, or the suffering of others. I think that when you instantiate it, and it's almost like when you, it's all based on choices that species make and individuals make. So in that sense, karma is very real, but you basically make certain things make more sense to yourself. And then very slowly, you go towards spaces where mostly that kind of thing happens, because it's the thing that makes the most sense to you. And this is very easy to miss, 'cause sometimes people feel like they're doing the right thing. Like, this is why some of the, some of the emphases in the Bible are around lowering like emotions like righteousness and things like this, right? Because you're almost certainly wrong, right? It's almost like you think you're fighting this thing that is like wrong with the world, but what you're essentially doing, what you don't realize, the trap is the blame itself. So you know, it's not like, yeah, I'm gonna get rid of this. This thing was never the problem. It's the finger pointing that was. And you just part took in it. So like, it's the, it's, if you can't understand that in reality, if the only thing that is sustainable is being able to take care of the most thing that is like right in front of you and you can do something and you can make a choice about it that is quote unquote good, like the cares about more than just yourself. That's the modality that leads to a stable state. The more you do of the other thing, which is just like, I'm identifying something wrong over there and I'm gonna act accordingly. There's actually not a lot of situations in which you really have to go like, act forcefully on something to really achieve something that would have good results. Sometimes there is, like in the immediate moment, something will happen and you have to respond. But for the most part, it's not like that. So in the world we live in, this takes the form that, and it's a very easy delusion to fall into, but it is absolutely a delusion, which is that people think that what they see through social media and the news and all, they really imagine that's the state the world is in, right? So to anybody who you're gonna tell them, like I actually think we'll live in the best world we've ever been a part of, they would think you're insane. They're like, everything is burning. I was like, oh really? Okay, step outside for a second. Like look at the tree for a second. It's not like people are not suffering. Suffering is an integral part of what's going on in the world. But if you think that it is the idea that it's the worst that's ever been, that's an idea you have that can be penetrated through, but you can't penetrate through it if you just convince yourself that what you absorb, 'cause what social media is is other people's impression, which is the thing that is amplified. So an event that you're reporting is constantly, sometimes in very fine ways and sometimes in way more aggressive ways, is saturated with somebody's perception that put it in front of you, right? That they're attitude, they're conviction of it, the energy with which they're speaking about it, and especially with some people that are very talented at speaking a certain way, right? They would exhibit all the things that would immediately make you go, yeah, like that thing. And then at that point, oh, that's just reality, right? And this is why, again, what the Buddha's big realization is, there are no other masters than you. So the only way you can nullify this is just to bring it back to right here right now and fall enough with the mundane. But the things are right here because that's where everything is emanating for you. And by the way, then you can use social media as a good tool. Like I mentioned this a few times now, but like I'm really in the habit of trying to teach my algorithm. Sometimes it's very hard, but like I'm like search for pages like good news around the world, nobody will tell you about, right? Like real new, that is awesome. Great, well, remind yourself, also great things are happening. Yeah. I'm connecting it to the fact that when you operate as, you know, as a civilization, in the end of the day, it's all a collection of each and every one of us. And just like with the example with the, you know, you don't want to help your mom watch the dishes, if you can't bring it upon yourself, like as a habit, to ask the people around you if you can make their life better, even in your own household, like just like literally ask like, hey, how can, what can I do? Or knock on your neighbors door and ask what you can do? Not as a trope you post about, but like literally a thing you do. If you can't do that, it's very easy to go online. Oh, this is wrong and this person is this person that you're not doing anything. Hans Rosling wrote a great book about this called Factfulness. I don't know if you've heard of it. But basically, he puts like a very straightforward, sort of economic case that our current civilization and realities globally, this is the best that it's ever been. And he does a great job of kind of laying out his position, again, not to minimize suffering, or say that there is no suffering. But if you look at suffering as like, you know, if you look at suffering as sort of like little widgets that exist, there are far fewer widgets today than there were 20 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago. Stephen Pinker wrote, I think in Lightman now, that was the book, along the same lines, which is literally, like we look at the statistics of everything. Literally, it's the best it's ever been. Crime-wise, employment, it's not like waves of suffering don't happen to different degrees. And some parts of the world are way more suffering than, of course. But the, and I get it, it's very easy to miss this. But if you're in a reflective mood, just allow yourself to venture there, you linger on. Unless you're willing to take your bag, travel, or go raise money to do a thing, and some people do, great. Okay, then I understand. Then you're literally an actor that is acting upon this, and then informing yourself, then it makes sense. For the most part, though, people just leave mean comments online. You're not doing anything to solve the situation. You're adding, you're throwing fuel, you're throwing a carousine on a fire, like literally that's all you're doing. And it feels, that's how people burn people on this day. It's like there's a, it's a Carl Jung's idea of a shadow. You projected something that is inadequate about you onto something else so you then can burn it. And the second you did, it's almost like a ceremonial thing by which you feel better for a little while. And that's what all cancel culture is. And it's like, I'm not even talking from a political point of view. Like literally psychological, that's what it is. It's like you just, you find something to blame. And if it makes enough sense and enough people repeat it around you, you're like, oh, that must be true. And then together you burn the witch. And then you feel better. For a little. For a little. And then it comes back even bigger. Because of course, the thing that you were projecting was in you all the time. It's what Ellen what's called the recognition of the irreducible rest-cality in yourself. Realizing that you're also a rascal. And this is why, like, notice that the people who trust the most are the ones that have full recognition of this. The kind of like the one that don't take themselves to seriously, the ones that kind of, they recognize they can be a piece of work very often. You're like, oh, yeah, I can relax around this person. They're aware. And then the people that were like super righteous and you're like, something is off here. And that's why. Yeah. Does this sort of philosophy you have? Does it take on a dualistic version of consciousness or is it non-dualistic? No, I think ultimately. Yeah, sorry. So just like, for anyone that's not aware, like, is this an idea that there's a oneness of consciousness that we are all sort of connected in some capacity, not only in this realm, but also in the other realms you're describing? Or are we still sort of separate? And there is myself as Mark, and then you as Danny, and then these other entities as themselves. Clearly both. Because you can experience both. You can experience states in which it's very clear to you that you're me and I'm you. But not here, so like in this instance, well, it is technically also here. But in this instance, we're both separate. And there's something about the interaction between me and you that informs the totality of things. But I actually think that that little point that people make, which you didn't necessarily make. But people always kind of like the next logical step for them is. We should treat each other better because we're all one That to me they're not related once or ever how many people do you know that treat themselves awfully? Yeah, it is nothing to just because I'm you I should treat you but no, I should just treat you better period Mm-hmm not because of anything else it feels a certain way Which if you do it for this for the fact that you recognize that that's just the truth of the situation So like if I treat you better I automatically feel better. I don't need a reason for it It's just how it is. Yeah, they're still serviceness to the ego to say I'm gonna treat you well because you're me because you're me It's exactly. Oh, well still rooted in trying to treat stuff well Yeah, for me actually there's a lot more beauty in communion than the recognition of the totality of unity So like there's something for me personally way more beautiful about two people especially if they're really different Coming together in communion doing something together and seeing each other. It's way more beautiful to me then You know, oh you're me, so I should probably like you know, but even that like that the these moving scales of how ideas should inform what we should be They play a role, but they're actually a very thin layer the ideas the reality of it is the felt presence of something and That unless you felt it it means nothing to you But when you start feeling it even a little bit it starts making sense I would claim and this is after speaking to quite a few Christians at this point that the ones that you not the Excuse me not the super zealous ones that are you know just screaming on the street. You're gonna go to hell But the ones that you can feel there's like a real You know like there's a there's a real spiritual development there. I would claim that all the reasons that they use To justify why they believe that Jesus Accepted Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior Has nothing to do with like the real reason has nothing to do with what they think it is like It's not because of what was said in the Bible. It's none of the logical stuff It has to do with the felt presence of the Holy Spirit like they feel it in their bodies and because it's the water They swim and they don't even realize that that's the conviction funny enough Sam Harris He when he did his PhD dissertation he discovered that when you ask a devout Christian About whether they believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior The parts of the brain that light up are the same as For any person the proposition two plus two equals four hmm, so it's it's They could not it can't not be like literally. It's just the same, right? I would say that's because of it's almost like the fundamental bedrock of feeling that they live on mm-hmm And it has a lot less to do with the ideas about Jesus, right? And the the relevance of this for our conversation is that this is what I mean by there's information in feeling like it Whatever everything is you me What we belong to If we drop into the space of presence which is practice Which is really just quieting your mind and getting more into the felt presence of the body Certain things become apparent immediately and they have a Conclusiveness to them that ideas don't ideas will always suffer from the problem that they're always contextual they are always They're shifting according to the logic of everything else around them at the right feeling It has a certain certainty to it, but again, we've got to be careful with delusion It also has to if you want to follow the kind of the execution of the totality of things It will always have this like very pleasant flow. It's like it's very pleasant to be around that Otherwise, it spikes anything that is jarring is spiky, right? So people have to learn how to move through both spaces at once. They should not neglect common sense but anything that is Idea-base, it's provisional like it's it's always I can think of a thousand ways of Explain anything away anything you if it's devout from the feeling of it, right? I can take any idea and present the opposite of it We get that we don't have to do this But if you are like I'm willing to run this as I can take any idea that makes perfect sense and flip it to the exact opposite and it would make perfect sense It has more to do with what is the predispensation of the lived experience of whatever that is and That informs you about what it's like to be a conscious being in the world. That's what it is You can have a different circumstance from which all of a sudden a different modality would make sense I don't think a lot of people disagree that if there's even though we would agree that for the most part Violence is less preferable than the non-violence, right? In certain situations you see like somebody on an old lady being Beating senselessly on the street. I think pretty much everybody would agree was like, yeah, we're gonna use some force Yeah, okay, and everybody gonna feel great about it and it actually feels harmonious because there's something about that is now if you start Sliding from okay, you take off the perpetrator Maybe even get a couple more in just to kind of like hey never do that again. Mm-hmm beyond that It starts getting the telescope. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the scales are tipped again. Exactly. So harmony, right? Yeah, so it has to do like I my big thing is That in order to interact with these grandiose Ideas experiences you have to be rooted in some do you have to be anchored to something? That is just your own personal responsibility as a unit in your tiny world if you can do that go explore If there's nothing here that you master yet even to the slightest degree focus on this first before you Because that will make you float free from sense and and really I would say humanity in the end because I think that's what happens to people Lose it a little bit. Yeah, like a lack of a grounding and boundaries. Yeah, it's very much like a stoic ideal, right of like 10 to your garden Right like focus on the things you can I always quote mother Teresa which I quote I love but if you want to change the world love your family Mm-hmm, and it's just such a great way I think to really like minimize and focus on the things that ultimately matter and if you're trying to you know Raise the consciousness of the human race. It's like well, you should focus on the things you can immediately affect It's how you feel in them. It's so easy to miss It's how you feel exactly in the moment if the and this is something that is almost impossible to notice and and unless you can Have the other modality also a site like the dress if you can't see the other one's kind of hard to know, but if you If you so submerged in a space that is a finger pointy Notice what it feels like it takes a little break, but like it's it doesn't feel good It's like oh like you Tightening there. It doesn't all right. Well, the thing is that that feeling is Almost invisible to you if not completely invisible to you, but it's very addictive because it's I guess it's right moving as a It's yeah, it's very primal, right? But then when the problem that you thought that was there might even have resolved itself I think this would well we're not gonna mention it specific because it doesn't matter, but like when the problem resolved itself The feeling and your attachment to the feeling is still there, so then you're gonna be like I got to put somewhere else Yeah, I got to point it somewhere else or this Yeah, and then and now you just a hostage of that feeling You can just bring into this and then just float like I always imagine almost like a little floaty in the middle of the ocean You just kind of relax and then something happens and you're like oh, let's swim over there. Mm-hmm Well, let's even swim fast. Mm-hmm, but at no point in my Yeah, because you know, yeah Then it has been fantastic. Where can the people find you if they want to support the project? Where can they go? Danny goler.com is my website with all my and also across all social media I'm just Danny goler the a double and YG oily are in our website that you sow is code of reality.org where all the updates are going to be Oh, and now retreat website C-O-R retreat.com with phenomenal retreats that we do for people and the focus is very much on the people and the growth They're going through those would be my promotional announcements amazing as you discover more things and as the research goes on Will you please come back and visit us with absolute pleasure? I love New York. I love this so I can't really thank you so much brother. Thank you