Divorcing a Narcissist: Samantha Boss on Surviving the Chaos

Welcome to the DRV Law Show with your host, divorce attorney, Dennis Vittrano, talking divorce, relationships, and adding value to your life. Now, here's your host, Dennis Vittrano. Welcome back to the DRV Law Show. I'm your host, divorce attorney, Dennis Vittrano. And today we have Samantha Boss with us. She's a certified divorce mediator and coach. She empowers moms to protect themselves and their children's future by providing expert guidance on parenting plans and navigating high conflict X's. So welcome, Sam, to the show. Let's just get right into it. Listen, I saw one. Look, by the way, I got to start off with I love your content. And I love what you're doing. And the, uh, the I do to episode with Jenny Garth looked awesome. But I saw this video of yours that basically intimated, look, even if you're in a divorce with a narcissist, a toxic person who's doing everything that can that sabotage the situation, there are many mistakes that you also make that can make it worse. Absolutely. So I want to talk to you about like I know you went through that situation. Um, tell me about that. Like what mistakes can you try to avoid if you know you've got that person on the other side in your divorce case? Well, I think first it's recognizing that you have somebody like that on the other side. I was resistant. Right. I thought, okay, I was just married to you just sleeping with you like a couple of weeks ago. Right. How is it going to turn this ugly this fast? Like maybe this is just a bad week. Maybe this is just a bad month. You know, I kept making excuses that I wasn't in a high conflict divorce. There's no way I have children with this person. There's no way I was just married to this person. So I say resistance was my biggest problem. You know, I wasn't looking at the patterns. I wasn't looking at this was his second divorce. He was well versed. I was coming in behind the eight ball for sure. Um, I think not recognizing the signs and making excuses for the signs of like, you know, I'll be able to make this work. You know, no matter what he does, I can make this a smooth divorce. I can make this smooth co-parenting. That's the furthest thing from the truth. Right. No, no. I just was resistant to obvious signs that were right in front of my face because I wasn't edge. I didn't know what a high conflict divorce was. Right. I thought they were all the same. So what were some of the signs that people should be looking out for to say like, Hey, I better like brace myself and hold on because this is a direction it's going to go because I think, you know, it's insidious that if that's the right word of how they can just like morph into this person or have they been that person the whole way? Well, I think that's the number one key is like instantaneous change of behaviors, whether it's, you know, a parent that goes from worker B to 100% invested into children, all of the sudden, you know, or somebody that never really cared about finances all of a sudden is watching every single penny. Somebody that says, Hey, let's do this together. And then they've had 16 consults with attorneys. They don't want to turn paperwork in. They stall tactic, everything. They want to broadcast to the whole community that you are an absolute shit show. They want to turn your friends and family against you and be the victim. I think anytime you have somebody go through rapid behavior change is like a red flag that you are getting ready to go down a slippery, dangerous, high conflict divorce and prepare yourself because they're not going to slip back into that fake person that they were. This is who they are. They've really just, they've let the shell come off and they are showing you, okay, you are wanting to leave me. This loyalty has begun. I'm going to show you, I'm going to punish you for being disloyal to me. Right. And the punishments come one after the other and you just have to see them. And I think I made excuses because this is where a lot of my clients, women, they draw to themselves. He's treating me this way and I'm the one that picked him and I feel so dumb that I picked him and I have so much shame and guilt with that that I'm not going to own up to what's really right in front of me because I picked this person and that would have to have some self reflection that I picked a bad egg and a lot of women aren't ready for that in that face. Yeah, and you know what? I think that's so unfair. I feel like I see those videos all the time. Well, you choose, you know, you chose poorly. You chose an asshole like this, like, hey, wait a second. You don't know what it's like to be in it because I think those, say like covert or sister whatever, like those sorts of people are so good at cloaking and like smoke screening, everything they're doing. And these are people who will do this over a 20 year marriage. And then you're like, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think honestly for me, I came from a great family. A loving, all grandparents, parents, I'm still married. I came from a great family and he slowly picked that apart that that was bad. He didn't have come from a great family. You know, he just totally warped my brain so quickly. And I believed in because with all the warping was also this grandiose. Oh my gosh, you're amazing. You're beautiful. I need you to help raise my other child. I can't live without you. You're the most important thing to me. And I was just like, oh, I can go help him. You know, I can go fix him. And then it just that true behavior was always there from the beginning. I just had blinders on. I just did not pay attention to it. And then when the divorce started, it 10x. I mean, it just 10x. It was just everything was bad. Everything I did was bad across the street wrong. I couldn't parent children right? I wasn't doing anything in the community. Like he was out for the jugular on all parts of me. Nothing was off limits. So looking back, what are the things? Because that's hard. I mean, how do you distinguish that? You have somebody in the one hand saying, oh, you're beautiful. I love you. You're amazing. And then like kind of like in a way like like almost like. And I would say to clients in these situations, like if they're trying to push you off onto a proverbial island, separate you from friends and family and stuff like that, you got that's got to be like that. Well, I'm going to be honest. I didn't even know there were people like that. Again, maybe that was my upbringing. I didn't have people like that in my life. I didn't have people that treated people like that. So like, I just thought, Oh, this is what marriage is. Like you go off on your own and because we got married after 60 days, I know red flag. But it was this thing of like, I didn't know these behaviors that even existed. I didn't know what a narcissist was. I didn't know really what trauma from childhood, how it would affect you later. I didn't have trauma that much. Like I just didn't know these type of people were walking around putting this facade on to pull you in. And then their true colors, like I didn't, I didn't have people like that in my life. And I was completely uneducated in that whole spectrum of type of personalities. And I fell for it hook, line and sinker got pregnant right away. So then I was in it. Then I'm in it. There's no getting out of it. You're married and you got a kid. And here's my parents who have been together 30 some years at that point. I'm like, okay, this is what we do. We go through rough patches and the rough patches. We just got more and more. And I think so the warning signs to me are, you know, when they try to change you and I wish this would be a class in high school or college where it's like, learn yourself. You're values learn your more. Someone tries to change them. That's not a good person. You know, like, I wish it was just more, we would teach people more about themselves and to be more confident with their own decisions themselves because that's, that's where my clients they come broken shattered, crumbled to pieces because of this person. And we are, you know, we're rebuilding them and helping them out the door. But yeah, I think it's just knowing yourself and anytime they try to put you on that island, I love that analogy. Run. Run. Yeah. Instantly. You know, and it's funny because it's tough to distinguish. I mean, I always tell people, you want to be with a partner who makes you the best you you can be. Absolutely. So, so, so do they want to help you be your best? Of course, but that's different than changing someone. Right. Right. Well, I think it's just like, you know, my husband now is support, I call him like support staff. He's going to support me in whatever I do. Yeah. You know, he's not going to, he's not going to say you shouldn't do that or I think that's wrong. You know, he's just going to, I'm here to support you and let you fail and I'll be there. Let you succeed and I'll clap you up, you know, and I think with my first husband, it was like, I couldn't dress right. I couldn't have my hair long enough. I couldn't wear the right perfume. Like, everything was wrong. It had to be tailored to me. He, I had no input in my own life whatsoever. And at first, again, I was young and dumb. I thought it was flattering. Oh, look at this man. He's taking care of me. Oh, he's really jealous. Oh, look at him. You know, and then I got around around it long enough. And I'm just like, this is fucking ridiculous. Yeah. I can't even breathe right. And he's down my throat about everything, you know, so that's what I knew it was time to leave. And then for some reason, I thought, okay, if I leave this marriage, this will be different in co-pairing. Oh, no. Yeah. He carried it right on over. He didn't miss the beat, you know, he stayed that same person forever. And again, I had resistance because I married him. So I'm like, okay, if I just do this, if I just do that, if I just do this, he'll stop eight years. Dennis, eight years. I kissed a man's ass who treated me like shit thinking that tomorrow will be the day he stops. Tomorrow, if I just do this enough, he will stop never in eight years. Yeah. Now, now I want to highlight the thing we just talked about a couple of minutes ago. You're pointing and saying, you shouldn't do this. You should do that. If anybody is trying to control you almost like that parent child relationship, like literally finger wagging at you and telling you what you shouldn't shouldn't do, that is never a healthy circumstance, ever, ever, ever, at least when it's with two partners. And it just screams utter insecurity in that person. I mean, never feel well versed in this now. I just think what a little man my ex-husband was. What so lacking self esteem he had such an inner child. was just broken, you know, and it's just like, and lashing out and just, you know, totally talking, not just to me, to peers and community, like he was just better than everybody, allegedly, but he really deep down had some fucked up issues that he'd never dealt with, and never matured emotionally, you know, and was just stuck at this age of young childhood and just punished people left and right. And again, I just wasn't versed in this. And I think there's a lot of people that don't, we don't do a good enough job of asking people about their childhood before we get married. - Yeah. - And are they willing to work on some things that might not have been perfect and well, I think that's a mistake that a lot of us make too in relationships. - Yeah, why don't I think we don't take enough time really, well, I start with knowing yourself and learning who you are first. - Yeah. - And then if you're gonna partner with someone else and even more significant, if you're gonna pledge your life to someone, have kids, et cetera, knowing them, I mean inside, out, backwards, forward, sideways. And I think you raised a good point like how they, him or her, treats a stranger, a coworker, a peer, somebody on their basketball team, like how do they conduct themselves with people? And I think you can usually, you know, I think it speaks volumes when you see how they react in the worst circumstance. - Yes. - So you're pissed off of the grocery store and the grocery store are clear like does something you don't like or over rings your item or whatever, how do they react? - Yeah, and the zero self reflection, you know, if you did, if I look back to all of our fights that we had in our marriage, everything was my fault. Ask him, he'll tell you, you know, there was never like, hey, maybe I came home grouchy. Hey, maybe I slept wrong. Hey, maybe I'm mad about something else and I'm punishing you for it. Never, everything was my fault. And again, that went on into co-pairning too. Nothing was his fault, you know, the kids misbehaved at school, mom's fault. You know, the kids talked back to him at his house under his guidance for three days, it's my fault. You know, like nothing, there was no self reflection by him or anybody, and that went into with lawyers and everything. And that was where I had the blinders on. You know, he would slowly in the divorce, everything was Sam, Sam did this, Sam did that. And it was like, I was playing defense from filing. As soon as I filed, I went into defense of Moe because he was on the attack of like, she did this, she did this, she did this. And my head was just spinning. I'm like, I thought we just wanted divorce. I didn't know we were dragging up shit from fucking four years ago and 10 weeks ago, like, how does that play into a divorce, but it sure shit did. - Yeah, and here's the thing, that's really the core issue of what I wanted to get to with you being on defense. I think when you're in a toxic relationship with someone like that, St. Narsus, et cetera, a user, what have you, there's always a focus on how we defend what they're doing. I think it puts us in a situation where we're on our heels from day one being reactive, not proactive. - Yeah. - So when you said in your piece like, hey, I did a lot of shit wrong, there were mistakes I made throughout the process that helped lead it to a more contentious situation. So how can you be proactive in a situation like that and take the right steps so you can do everything you can to, you know, bring down the emotions like make it less agronious. - And cut the cost. I think for most understanding the divorce process, like I was so blind and I say this and people laugh, but it was true, this is how naive it was. I thought divorce was like young in the restless when they fold the blue piece of paper up and you unfold it and you sign it and it's like you turn it in and you're good. I literally thought I grew up watching young in the restless guiding light. I thought that was how you get divorced, right? Jack Abbott got divorced six times in the years that I watched it, right? It's not like that. So I think being educated about the process, like okay, there's filing and then there's mediation and there's filling out paperwork and disclosures and all these things. I think understanding it before you jump into it would really help you navigate that. There's something you go in and be like, well why am I not divorced yet? I'm like, oh sister, you filed six weeks ago. You've got some months to go, honey. You know, like they don't understand the process. You know, why is my lawyer not calling me back? Well, your lawyer also has 15 to 16 other cases going on right now and you know, he knows that you don't really have anything going on. So he's not going to call you back. Like they don't understand the process. And at the end of it, all of us, every single one of us getting divorced will end up if they had a child agreement. And people are fighting so much at the beginning and they have this resistance from the high conflict parent. You don't realize what the, you don't even know what the end goal is. Because you just want divorced. Do you think that's the end goal? The end goal is your parenting plan and your financial affidavit. That's your end goal. Yeah. Not the divorce. What does your paperwork say at the end? That's the end. And when you don't know what that even is and you're starting a process and you don't know what it is, like that's where you're behind the eight ball. And again, this was his second divorce for me. So he was already like, I already know what's cooking. I already know what paperwork. So he was distracting me with all this bullshit. And I didn't know what a parenting plan was. I had no idea. So I think getting an education about parenting plans, what do they have, what should it include? How can I make it grow with my child? Understanding your finances? Where are the bodies buried? Where are the skeletons? What's your name on? What is your name? Not on, you know, how much do you owe on that? And that's another one. But I think also picking the right attorney to match you and your case. And I think not all attorneys are created equal. I don't think any client and attorney relationship is the same. So if you're getting advice from your girlfriend, her case was different than yours, honey. She maybe divorced somebody different. And so you got to make sure you're picking an attorney that fits your case, not your personality per se, but your case, you know, and making sure that their office fits your case. And they can handle your type of case. And the funny part about that is we get that all the time. They're like, oh, you know, like we want X or Y or Z done. And it's like, K, like there's a process here. I think fitting the personality is, you know, and I'll tell clients on a regular basis during consultations, I'll say like, look, I'm not necessarily everybody's cup of tea, right? - Priege. - But you've got to, but essentially, when you go in the door at that office and you have a consultation with a lawyer, you're gonna know it. You don't need legal expertise to know how you feel. - Right. - You'll comfortable with that lawyer, you don't. - Yeah. And I think that's one thing that women and abusive relationships need to hear clearly. When you're leaving that abusive relationship and you go into an attorney's office and they become your night and shining arbor in like three seconds, pause a little bit and make sure still that attorney, I mean, 'cause anybody can give you lip service. You gotta make sure that attorney is well versed in your type of case. And again, my first attorney, I picked a personality that fit me, but not my case. He made me feel warm and fuzzy and protected. But in front of my ex-husband, they were bros and I'm like, whoa, this is not what I mean. And my last attorney, Helen, she was a bad ass. Her and I were not, we were too much alike. We, we, we, we, we, but it heads a lot. But she was great in court. She was phenomenal in court, you know, and that's what I needed, 'cause my case was gonna go to court no matter what, because of high conflict. And I, I was against that. Here I was thinking that if we just to give him this, give him this, give him this. He wasn't, he wanted the show. He wanted to go to court. And I needed an attorney that could be in court to perform well in court, 'cause that's where I was gonna end up was court. And she performed well. - Right, and I think, you know, a lot of times what I'm telling clients these days is the first step is to, is to consume information. There's so much free information out there. - I mean, obviously you can get, you know, divorce coaches, which are well worth the money by a mile. Counselors are super important. Your lawyer is super important. There's multiple professionals who are important to the process to help get you through it. But even just consuming at the outset is much free information as you can. So you can, you know, answer some of those question marks, right? - Right, and that's, that's what I wish I would have had. And that's why I've created, you know, small little micro classes for people just to come and just listen. You know, and I'm not saying everything I'm gonna say is gonna be perfect for your case, but man, is it gonna create your brand to start firing off of like, man, I haven't thought of that in the future, 'cause so many people get divorced when their kids are so young, you know, four, five, six, nine, you're a first time parent. You don't even know what 10, 11, 12, 15 looks like because this is your first time through. So you don't even know what to think of in the future, right? So I think just automatically thinking about that parenting plan and what is it gonna look like? And what do I need to be thinking ahead and what does decision making look like with the two of us? I mean, hey, we're in a hell of a lot of water right now with this joint, you know, or going to court. How are we gonna do joint later? And what does that look like? And just really understanding what you're getting ready to be handed to you. It's just so critical. I mean, I had so much hindsight afterwards of like, so excited when I got my parenting plans for pages. And I'm like, I'm divorced for pages. And then I went to use it like a week later and I'm like, well, where the hell's that at? Oh, it was just assumed. What? Like, I just spent $100,000 to assume. What? I was, I mean, the gut wrenching punch to the face. I was just like, are you kidding me? You know, and then that's when I was like, I have to change this. I have to make people so much better educated about what to fight for, where are the priorities, where's the fires to put out? What are the hills to down? What are the hills to let go? Who gives a shit about that in the long run? You know, and really just know that you walk away from it, you're not gonna get everything, but walk away from it at least educated about what you did. Yeah. You know, and what you're fighting for. I just see so many people like, don't know what they're even fighting for. And I tell people in these cases that like, look, you have to remember, you're a parenting plan or any order you arrive at, any agreed upon order, 'cause most of these cases, even the most contentious ones are settled at the end of the day. Very few of them are actually tried before a judge, you put on evidence, you put records before the judge, the judge issues a decision, makes a determination, that's rare. Even the cases that are extremely litigious, most. to them are settled. But, you know, I have many cases where people say, "Oh, everything's fine, everything's agreement, we're gonna have a one-page order, we're gonna have a as agreed upon." Right? - Until somebody starts screwing somebody. - Exactly, exactly, exactly. I always say, until there's a new boyfriend or girlfriend or new husband or wife, and they say, "You're ex-wife's a bitch, or you're ex-husband's an asshole." Once you start getting there, now you're gonna start taking that, as you said, four-page document and trying to decipher exactly what's happening in a multiplicity of circumstances that are gonna take place over and stuff you can't possibly provide for over the next, you know, 18, 21 years, right? So, I always suggest, have a solid floor. That's your order, that's your parenting plan. The ceiling is as much as the two of you can agree to outside the order above and beyond the order. Try to leave as few things as as possible to the, it's automatically assumed or as agreed upon, right? - Right, well, you know, and that's why I help people kind of get their thoughts on paper. And I want people to, you know, know what it's like to get their kid from diapers to diploma. Here's all the big events that are gonna happen. Let's go ahead and at least like have dialogue and mediation. Let's go ahead and at least talk. Let's see if we can get down, at least some nuts and bolts down. You know, before we just sign this really vague, 'cause if you sign a vague agreement, you're guaranteeing one of two things. Either, "A, you're going back, which costs you money, nobody's going to do help represent you for free." Of course, I'm gonna let you show up for free. Or secondly, it's just gonna leave you with the hands of a high-conflict person determining what you're gonna do on all those decisions in the future. Those, guarantee, those are your two odds. If you do not get a detailed parenting plan that gets you from diapers to diploma. And I think that's why I just, I love what I do, 'cause I thought of everything. I mean, my kids are now part of my business. They're in their 20s. And they're able to say, man, I wish we would have done this better. I wish you and dad would have, you know, fix this. And so I've created this, you know, methodology is what I call it, of like how you deal with high-conflict people. And some people will say, well, how do you determine these decisions? I'm like, look, here's what I die on this hill. I would rather have a decision. I'm somewhat like, well, I'm not really excited about that decision, but at least it's a decision because I don't have to go back to court and I don't have to talk to his ass. - Right. - So I might not love the decision, but it is a decision. And I'm at least like, I can move on with my life. And if we're in good terms for whatever reason, somebody bumped their head. And that's great. You can talk it out, put your parenting plan on the shelf and never look at it. Agree with them, talk it out. You know, you have to follow the parenting plan if you're getting along. But if you're not getting along, that decision's already been made. Sorry, I love to talk to you, Steve, but I can't. We're gonna follow page 17 of our parenting plan and just do what that says. If you don't like it, taking back to court, but we're gonna do page 17. - And I say to clients, I say, look, I hope, I sincerely hope you take this 15 page custody agreement, okay? And you put it in a drawer and never need to look at it again. That is my sincere hope. But in the event that that does not happen, you're gonna be happy that we played everything out in this agreement. So listen, with these long contentious cases, and I've had many of them, I'm sure you've dealt with many as well, how do you get people to see that the goal is not just to get out? 'Cause that's what it becomes. If you're in a contentious situation, the only goal at that point for clients is I want out. The success means out. And I get it, but how do you get them to have the patients have the resilience to see it's not just out, it's out in a way that's the right way, right? In terms of your agreement, your resolution, your split of assets, those sorts of things. - Well, I think that's where divorce coaches are so critical in these high contentious divorces, is because you have a job. Your job is the law to advise on the law. My job is to keep the emotions under wraps, to keep you focused on the goal, to keep you regulated, to keep you parenting during this whole process, to keep you proud of yourself during this whole process. Divorce coaches are there to listen to you, bitch and bitch and bitch and complain, and be emotional, and we take all that, we put it into three or four bullet points, and we send that to your attorney, and we take all the emotion out of it. I think we have to keep them, my phrase to my clients all the time is, what would your six year away self say? If your six year away self would be proud of giving up, then let's give up on it. But if your six year away self is gonna go, bitch, why'd you walk away from that? Why did you give up that retirement? Why did you walk away from that house? All because you were emotional, making an emotional decision. So if they don't have good family to give them their sounding board six year away self talk, then that's where divorce coach comes in to say, hey, we gotta look at what your long-term goals are, and if your long-term goals are to afford a car for the kids and pay for college, then we gotta make sure we do go after half of his retirement because you are entitled to half of his retirement. And he's not gonna give it to you later. The only time to get it is now. So I know you think you're being a bitch for going after this 'cause he's telling you you are, but you're entitled to it. So let's not get that emotional about it. Let's do the business decision that your six year away self will be proud of. - And I'll do you one better. Your kids are entitled to it. I think I have so many cases, and I actually did a few pieces on this on TikTok and Instagram. I'm like, look, you know, there's so many parents, primary parents that I say, well, I'll just wave child support. I don't need the money. Okay. So how are you gonna answer and listen, we've represented some high asset clients, but that's the small percentage of what most of our lawyers do. You're basically bread and butter people who, you know, varying degrees of wealth, but they're still, they're relying on money to pay bills. So do you wanna be in a situation where your kid wants to go to hockey camp and you have to say, no, I can't afford it. Do you wanna be in a situation where your kid says, I wanna do an Ivy League school? And you know you would have had the resources with the retirement, with the support to be able to do and you have to tell them no. - Well, I'm getting clients right now who are like, Sam, he said if I give up the money part, whether it be extra curriculars or child support or his retirement or whatever, they'll give me the kids. And I'm like, oh, sister, you know, you give up that money now for the kids. There's nothing saying in a year from now, he doesn't go, I want the kids now. - Yep. - And now you just walk away from all that money a year ago, but now he's fighting for the kids again. And there's no reason he can't get him, you know? So I mean, to put kids in money, but that's what high-conflict people do. High-conflict people will threaten you and say, I will take every penny, you will be paying me by the end of this and I'm gonna take your kids and you will never see them again. And then me as a mom, I'm like, oh my gosh, we'll take whatever you want, I just want my babies. - Yep, and it's all tools. You use all of these things as a tool and the end game is to get at you. The end game I find in these situations is not necessarily to get something. Well, if I give them X, then they'll be great. They just want to fight for Y, and if I just give it to them, we'll be fine. No, no, no, no. - Gosh, I did that one. - I did that one. - Doing this because they want the conflict. - Oh, they love it. - That's what they want. They don't want the end game. They want the conflict. - The crypt tonight. My ex has been loved to know that he had my attention and that then my attention was on him and not my children. So that was emotionally dysregulated when I was around my kids. Short tempered, short staffed, just, ugh, you know, go play. Like, I'm talking, like, you guys, like I had a bad day. Like, I was always, ugh, like, that eight years. I lived like that because he'd just pick up the scab. Just enough to get it to start bleeding and then I'm hemorrhaging at my house, right? And he, and I fell for it. Oh, that's why I say, you know, he was a fuck up, but so was I. Like, I allowed him into my mind. I allowed him into my home. I allowed him into my day to day. I tell my clients all the time, they have four corners of their life. I allowed him in all four corners. Like, I allowed him to micromanage me from a distance from outside. He wasn't even in my home, but he had complete control of me because I was so scared of court 'cause he told me he'd take me back what he did. He would, you know, he'd have me tied up with lawyers, which were very costly, so I was broke, you know, like, he fucked with every part of my life. And I allowed it until I woke up, you know, until I figured out like, okay, this is gonna stop. Like, this is ridiculous, you know, and then once I figured out boundaries and self-love and self-care and I got into therapy and I realized this was a game to him. And he was beating me big time. And what I didn't realize was, I don't need to play the game. I just need to remove myself from the game. - Right. - So how do you not allow them to do that to you? I mean, and that's a million dollar question. That is so difficult in it to say stop and not allow them to do that to you. - Well, I think first, it's learning boundaries that you've never had before. You know, I've never had anybody in my life. I need to put a boundary up with, you know? Like, if the father of my child is calling me, I'm gonna answer. But what I didn't realize, you know, 'cause everybody's telling me to, my lawyer's like, be the good client and make sure there's nothing that says you're the bad co-parent. So make, if he calls, answer him. If it's about the kid's answer him. So here he'd call me seven or eight times while I have the kid's present with me. So am I parenting? No. So he would put me on the heels of, you know, I'm talking to him or fighting with him. And then once we're on the phone, it's a fight. It's an argument. It's without, and he'd wrapped me into it. So I think learning boundaries first and foremost. Like you have to know that he can wait. The kids are with you, they're safe. You don't have to respond with him. You know, learning boundaries is a monumental step. It's super hard because as soon as it's like a child, you take away their toy 'cause it's bedtime. What are they gonna do? Scream kick, throw a fit, cry, you know, tell you that they don't like you. And then you're like, well, I don't want you to not to like me. So here's your toyback. If you give that toyback, you're not setting any boundaries, right? And so your ex of my conflict is the same way. It's gonna be ugly when you throw your first boundary down. They are gonna revolt. They are gonna wine kick, scream, and cry, and call you names. But as soon as they realize that you're not giving on that boundary, they're gonna move on. The sad part is as they move on to your children, but they're at least gonna move on from you. - Yeah. And I think here's the thing. Remember from a lawyer's perspective, do you have to communicate with the others? other side as a co-parent, especially if you're immersed within custody and visitation litigation. Absolutely 100% you do. So the lawyer saying that, absolutely. But do you, are you required to communicate on their terms? - Right. - Meaning I would say, you don't need to pick up the phone, text them. - Nope, exactly. - Email. So then what you have is, if it's apparent from the communication that they're only doing it to harass and annoy, then you're in the area where you don't have to respond. You don't have to answer. And they can go nuts about it. - Right, but it's that low, you gotta remember that woman has left that toxic, my clients are mostly women. Sometimes smart men hire me, that's for sure. - Yeah. - These women that have just been abused are leaving this toxic relationship where they were talked down to belittled the whole time. And then the second they're out on their own, they're think, start to like really take care of themselves and single parent, then all of a sudden, boom, he knocks her down again with the words. You're like, okay, how do I get? Again, it's this mind game of like, we sit there as moms and we're like, how can we get him to just be nice to me and move on? I am the mother of his children. Like, just be nice and there's nothing. That you will be a target forever. I am a target still 19, 20 years out. I'm still a target. Call him today, he'll tell you, I'm the biggest piece of shit that's walked the earth. And that's fine, that's his opinion and he's entitled to that. He's entitled to that. - And I always wonder, like I say, like at some point you must have loved this person on the other side, how in the hell do you get to the point where you do this? And okay. - I don't think so. I think there's certain personalities out there that have had so much childhood trauma that they're incapable of true authentic kinship and love. I really do. I think it was a facade that he wanted. I think it was a, he wanted me to have, he already had a child that he needed care for. He, I filled a role. I filled a position. - Interesting. - I made him look like a typical family. Husband, wife, two jobs, kid, picket fence, all the bullshit. I filled a spot. I don't know that that man ever loved me. He loved controlling me. He loved me being his possession, his pawn and everything. But I don't think there's certain personalities. I've been doing this a decade now. And there's just personalities from deep rooted trauma or issues. - Yeah. - Their love is not there. They don't love animals. They don't love humans. They don't love their family. They don't love themselves. I mean, they don't love themselves. How can you really love someone? - Yeah, that's a good point. - When you don't love yourself. I think they're capable. I think he enjoyed having sex with me. I think he enjoyed the position I held for him and the status he had with me. I don't think he truly loved me. And when I left, he went back to ground zero again. And nobody to fill that spot, you know? And it's just, I think there's just people out there that are incapable. And when there's people like me, like, "Let me fix you. "Let me go help you." Then that's what I did in co-pairing too. "Let me help you make this easy. "Look how great I'm being to you. "I'm giving you everything. "I'm bending over backwards." And he just abuse, abuse, abuse. Somebody asked me on a podcast the other day. She said, "Well, I always be the target." Yes. Always. You have to accept that role and determine how you'll let it affect you. - Right. So if you were to give advice to people who are trying to find their life partner right now and they're dating, either never been divorced or even post-divorce, what should they be looking for? To that maybe you've learned now if you're having been through the process, to avoid ending up with a person like that. - Know yourself and know that you're not going, it's knowing yourself. Know your childhood stuff, know your quirks, know your passions, know your love language, know your personality, know what you're good at, know what you're bad at, know how you communicate, know yourself first, but I think doing a thorough, and I don't say investigation, but just get to know this person and don't invest unless you're getting equal investment back. And that was one thing that I think, if I look back on all the narcissists I ever dated, I invested way more than they invested. Hoping that my investment, they'd like, see me, see me, see all of the, that I'm giving you? Like, you'll give it back, right? Like at some point you'll give it back, right? And it's just I undervalued myself. I didn't have a lot of self-worth and for whatever reason. And so having good self-worth and then really just seeing like, are they giving me what I want? And it early on, I would say early on in the relationship, they're not giving back the investment that you're putting forth, walk, walk. Because there's somebody like, you know, my unicorn and my business partner Leah, she has a unicorn now like, men that just know their value and they know they married value. And it's like rock star. It's amazing when it all aligns. But when you have somebody that doesn't have value and doesn't think they do, they're not bringing anything to you. And you think, you know, do you think you know it when you see it? Yeah, I really think like, I mean that unicorn. And I didn't know Jared, I didn't know Jared had like, himself put together the way he did. He was fun and it was easy. You know, race has love shouldn't be hard. It wasn't hard for us. It was easy. That's what I always say. It's easy. It was easy. I heard a conversation just the other day about that. I said, the way you know it's the one is it's easy. You don't get that anxiety, that stress, that aggravation. Like what is he thinking? What does he feel? Like what did he mean by that? Like he was easy. He was easy from day one. I mean, it was just it just kind of fell together. I mean, he's a lot younger than me. So I was like, this isn't this isn't going to happen, right? Like this is this is just a bizarre, easy fun little thing, right? And two kids later in a marriage, you know, here we are. But it was easy. And that's because he had his shit together on his own. And I had my shit together at that point. And then it just like good. You know, this is what Lee and I say at any point in time though, if Jared decides to leave or I decide to leave, guess what? I'm 100% good. Uh-huh. I'll be like, oh man, that stinks. But I'm not missing a fucking beat. My life will still perform. I will still show up every day. I will still love myself. I will still function. I'll still have a job. I'll have great kids. Like I am missing anything. I'm never going to let anybody ever pull me into that dark corner that I was in through that whole divorce and co-pairing journey. It was a dark corner that many people stay in the whole time and never see the light on the other side. And I just hope by listening to me like, I eight years, Dennis, I kissed a man's ass was friendly. I showed my kids to be a people pleaser to an abuser. It took a lot of healing to overcome that. But I've overcome it. And I now know that there's women out there that are just like neither good people. They just want right by their kids. They want to be that parent and co-parent and be that awesome blended family, but just not in the same house. But not all of us get that. Some of us are going to have high contingencies and divorce that's just miserable and co-parenting where you're in opposite ends of the soccer field. And that's okay too. That's okay. Your kids will be fine. They will be. If they have one solid just rock star, self-worth loving fucking parent, they will be fine. - Yeah, yeah, give yourself grace. I think that's an message. Hey, listen, Sam, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your insights. Really appreciate you. Please tell my listeners how can they work with you? What resources can they reach out to you for? I mean, you have a wealth of knowledge and information to offer the general public. And for anybody who's going through a contentious divorce. So give us the information. - I think, follow me anywhere, Samantha Boss or the ugly truth of divorce on any platform. I'm absolutely everywhere. But I think, again, if that educational piece spoke to you, I have a master class with a workbook where you just learn about all things parenting plan, diapers to diploma. I think that is a money saver, $97. You're gonna walk away with two, three hours of content of just listening about all things kids. I also help people's ideas about their parenting plans down on paper to take to their attorneys and say, "Hey, here's what I'm thinking. Here's a rough draft of what I think I want for the kids." And then the best part that I think, if you don't know where to start, is just to get inside of our next chapter membership was just a monthly membership for moms who are going through these high contingency divorces, horrible co-pairing journeys, leaving an abusive relationship where we're rebuilding. We're teaching your finances and fitness and how to single parent, how to discipline your kids, boundaries, we're teaching everything. So there's something for everybody no matter where you're at in the journey. But if anything, like you said, follow my free content. Just listen to me tell stories and educational pieces to where you're not alone. If you look in that comment section, people are like, "Where were you five years ago? "I needed you 10 years ago. "Where were you? Where were you?" - 100%. - Just speak the truth. Like not everybody has the fairy tale matching shirts still doing Christmas together story. I wish that for everybody, but that's not the case. Radical acceptance, some of you have a shit case going on and it's gonna be high conflict. You might as well accept it, don't resist it, but know the methodology on how to deal with it is critical. - Yep, so where can they find you on tick, you're on tick-tock Instagram, other places. Where can they find you on tick-tock Instagram? I love the videos. - Yeah, yeah, the Samantha boss. And just make sure it's me. - Okay. - 'Cause you know, a lot of people stealing my stuff is, you know how me too. - Yeah, me too. - Yeah. - Come on, you guys, like just give me some credit. But yeah, the ugly truth or divorce or the ugly truth of co-parenting. And yeah, you're gonna see me just feeling the absolute truth about some of the shit stories that my clients have. And mine too, you know. - We'll call it drop in knowledge. Thanks again so much, Sam, really appreciate having you. And thank you so much for tuning into the DRV Law Show and remember, live the best life you can, know your worth it and stay patient, you will find it. Have a great day, everybody. (upbeat music)