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Speaker 2You can't pretend you meant to get divorced. When you were walking down the aisle, you believed that this was going to work out. There's something beautiful to be found in here. I think that can be an amazing thing. You don't have to wait to get divorced to do that.
Speaker 3My guest today is James Sexton, one of the world's most famous divorce attorneys, who has seen more than a thousand marriages end, and he's going to share exactly what the relationships do that last, and what those do that fail.
Speaker 2Every marriage ends in death or divorce. The goal should be that when one of us dies, to look at the other and be able to say, this person helped me become better. This is the most authentic version of who I am, and they're still my favorite person in the world.
Speaker 3There's a 70% failure rate. Does marriage still work?
Speaker 2The question people most often ask me is...
Speaker 3There's so many interesting ways to go with you. We've become buddies.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 3But one of the parts I find fascinating is inverse thinking, right? So Charlie Munger always said, "Invert always invert," and that's how you find the truth. And so you've watched thousands of marriages die. You've been a part of thousands of breakups of marriages.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 3And you've also written the book on how to not break up, and how to not get divorced. And so I want to start with just the basics. Right now, you're in a room, two people. How can you tell somebody is going to get divorced or not? What are the most telltale signs?
Speaker 2I mean, some of it is going to obviously be the way that they relate to each other verbally, like how much they're listening to each other, how much they're talking past each other or over each other, how much grace they give each other. I've always said, to me, the sound of a marriage that's about to end is like, it's a very simple, subtle sound. It's this, it's, "What? Huh? Yeah, whatever." It's a tone of voice more than a content. And the tone of voice says everything. It's like the, "What? What are you talking again? What are you? What?" It's the contempt, it's the opposite. It's the opposite of when we're dating. Like when we're dating, we're interested and we're interesting. And we feel interesting and we feel interested. And there's this sense of like, "Tell me about you. I want to know and let me tell you about me." And like, there's this feeling of this exchange. And then like, when we're together and it's falling apart, it's the total opposite of that. It's that sense of like, "What are you saying?" Like, and that to me is the sound of it. The feeling of it is a different thing too. I mean, anybody who's ever been out with like a bunch of couples and one of them, it's just like the vibe is just, "Did they get in a fight on the way over here or did they just hate each other? Like, what's going on?" Like, and you can just kind of feel it in the way that they're interacting or not like looking at their phones instead while the other one's talking that they're just not even, "What? What? Yeah. All right." You know, like it's a feeling. And I think, you know, again, like I think studying the opposite is really the thing. Like when we fall in love so fast and it's such a powerful emotion, it's so intoxicating, it's such a deep connection, and then we very slowly disconnect and it happens slowly. And it's just one of those things that then you turn around and go like, "How did we get here? Like, we never meant to get here. How did we get here?" Like, nobody ever wakes up and just goes, "Yeah, I think I'm going to like really fuck my life up today. You know, I'm just going to really just take this fundamental, foundational relationship that I've invested a tremendous amount of my life capital in and I'm just going to let it go to shit." Like, I don't think anybody thinks that and yet, you know, 50% or so of marriages end catastrophically, meaning they divorce. Another 10 to 20% either separate but never file for divorce, go out for milk and never come back, or they just sort of unhappily stay together and under surveys basically say, "Yeah, I kind of don't think this person adds any value to my life anymore." Which again, why would we sign up for something that fails roughly 60 to 70% of the time or at least doesn't, it catastrophically fails close to 50% of the time. And doesn't achieve the goal 70% of the time. And yet, we do over and over again.
Speaker 3So, what if we think about the opposite of that? Like, the other day I was talking to my husband, Chris, you know well, and... I love Chris. I know, he's very lovable.
Speaker 2We have such a bromance going on. It's the jiu-jitsu thing. It's like we just struggle cuddles. You just immediately are bonded, you know?
Speaker 3Jiu-jitsu, guys who like jiu-jitsu and poetry are rare. Yeah.
Speaker 2You know, after we recorded our last conversation and Chris and I, I felt like we were in the movie "Step Brothers," you know? Like, I was like, "Did we just become best friends?" "Yup." You know, like it was just instant. And all of a sudden, we're in these three-way texts with you and you're just on the sidelines while he and I are bro-ing out. I feel really badly about that. Well, I think it's great.
Speaker 3I have so much fun, you two are so hysterical. But it's funny because the other night I told Chris, you know, how in a marriage, somebody will tell the same story 52 times, right? All the time, we both do it. Well, why do you do that? Because it's a really great fucking story, right? That's like, I got mine in my back pocket. And I realized at some point I would like be like, "Okay, I've heard that one before." Skip to the end. Right? And he was so good because he basically said to me, he's like, "You know, I can tell when you are doing that thing where you're like trying to get me to move forward in a story." And I was like, "Oh, fuck, you can tell that?" Yeah. And I was like, "That's a shame." Like, and I said to him, "I'm so sorry because I find you so interesting and that story is actually really good. So when I reframe it, like, I love that you get to talk a bunch at dinner. I don't have to talk as much." And he like really liked the compliment. Because I probably hadn't said to him in a while, "You are so interesting. I love listening to you." So I guess my question here is like, how do you counter the whatever, I don't care? So say you are a person who still wants to be in the marriage and you're like, "I actually want my person to know that they are interesting to me." What do you do? How do you reengage a failing marriage?
Speaker 2I don't think it's actually that hard. I think you do the same things you do to screw it up. It's just you just move it in the other direction. You know, the spiral of like apathy and disdain for each other is the exact same recipe as the spiral in the other direction of like reconnecting to each other. And that is, it's these little tiny things that you slightly reframe. You know, it's giving the other person just this little bit of grace. Like, I genuinely think that the easiest thing we can do is just start treating our partner with love and attention and connection. And I think it's a, it's a 100% return on your investment because either you're going to reverse the spiral, so you're going to give your partner more grace, more attention, more praise, more love, more affection, than maybe you owe them, if we owe each other anything. And either that's going to inspire them to start doing the same and feeling good about you, this chicken or the egg thing, or you're going to have done this for a while, and you're not going to get any return on an investment. And isn't it better to know? Isn't it better to know? Like, wow, maybe this thing is really broken between us, and happily ever after might mean happily ever after separately. Like, I'm a believer in people splitting up when that's the right move for them. But I genuinely think that all you have to really do to reverse that spiral is to start, because what does it take? Like, what does it take to just, in the middle of the day, send your girlfriend, wife, a text, that says, you know, I had such fun hanging out with you last night. I married the prettiest girl in the world. 30 seconds cost nothing. What does it take? It's the equivalent of sending flowers. Like, it's the equivalent. Like, to say, like, I was just thinking of you, and I just wanted you to know. Like, oh, I walked past this person, and they were wearing the perfume you used to wear when we first went out, and for a second, I almost fell down. What a, like, beautiful thing to say. Who wouldn't want to hear that? Who wouldn't want, and again, costs nothing, takes almost no time. And the ROI on that, I think, can be really, really profound. And, you know, if you don't mind me saying, because you gave yourself as an example, like, having hung out with you and Chris together as a couple, you know, when we went out to dinner, I remember thinking, like, oh, what's this going to be like? Because, like, you and I have such big personalities. And I was like, oh, my God, this is going to be, this is, like, everybody wants to be Beyonce. Nobody wants to be Destiny's Child here. This is going to be crazy. And I thought, but, you know, Chris is so interesting, and he's so accomplished, and there's such a hell of a resume there. And I thought, like, what's this going to look like? Is it going to be, like, a competition? Like, who's going to, and he was so, he reminded me of a lot of my really lethal jujitsu buddies who were just so chill and just sort of, like, very, you and I were like, da-da-da-da-da-da. And he was like, you know, and even when I tried to make him the center of attention, like, I wanted to, I was genuinely curious, like, oh, tell me about the Naval Academy. Tell me about this. He was very quick to, like, bounce it back to you. And there was such a sense between, and again, it's like an energy thing, not to sound too, too woo-woo about it, but it really was, like, you guys clearly like each other. Yeah. Like, you don't just love each other. It's lovely that you love each other. That's great. But, like, you like each other. Like, you were sitting there kind of listening to each other's stories, laughing at each other's jokes. And there wasn't this sense at all of, like, taking the piss out of each other in a way that was in any way, but, like, loving and sweet and affectionate. Like, no one would ever look and go, oh, these two, like, do not even like each other. Like, there's such a sense of camaraderie and connection. When you're with people that have that rhythm the right way, You realize it's just those little things. little tiny things and we all want i know we all want like the big thing the panacea the cure the like single thing i don't think it's it's like that i think it's just these little choices we make every day but again like we have all these gadgets these watches that bang and tell us when to drink water and these gadgets in our pocket that tell us you know when to move or when we can't just set a reminder somebody can't just make an app that just says hey three times a day here's the random times to text your person and tell them that you're thinking of them or send them a picture send them a nude i don't know like do something like do something for them to let them know i see you i like you you're still my person you know you're still my favorite person you know that's the thing i've been on a lot about lately is just the idea that this is your favorite person like this is a eight billion people in the world and this one you pick this one and they picked you like what a what a beautiful thing to have found you so why wouldn't you value it and treat it with a little bit of everyday maintenance
Speaker 3yeah you know it's interesting because you've also talked before and it was profound to me and i can't remember if we actually did it live or when we were behind the scenes but we all have that friend or a group of friends that when we're with them as a couple they are taking the piss out of each other all the time they're going back and forth and for some reason they kind of think it's cool like you know and they're like oh you know i got him or i got her or whatever they almost it's performative they want you to like well it's like rewarded in the zeitgeist too right so i guess what is the key indicator that like that's you how how do you see how do you know that somebody is really unhappy in their marriage by the way they communicate in front of others and what's a sign you're doing it in your marriage you might be like you might actually be killing your marriage by the way you talk to your spouse in front of other people well
Speaker 2i i think again like the way to the way out of this or the way to like really i think interpret the data because you know facts all come with points of view and they rarely do what i want them to you know like they're and i know that as someone who weaponizes facts all the time like see i guess the thing that makes me different than like the gotmans or ester peral or any other myriad of mental health professionals who have excellent advice to give everybody about relationships including me like i'm actually really i'm a lawyer so all i care about is evidence like i don't care what you know what can you prove like how am i going to prove it i love my kid that's nice what's the evidence to support that okay i'm going to show that you go to every parent teacher conference i'm going to show that you gave up this work opportunity that was really lucrative for you because you wanted to be home because your kid had a school thing like that's evidence that's all i'm caught up in is what's the evidence okay i love you cool loves a feeling and loves a verb so what's the proof give me the evidence what's the evidence that you love this person because you're not going to be able to prove that you're Here's what I'll tell you. I'm looking at the ingredients I have at trial that I'm going to put up on the witness stand. And as far as I can tell, like if I cross examined you about your love, I think I could take you apart. Because if you're saying you love this person, isn't it a fact that when this person came home last week and said X, Y and Z that you started, you know, making them feel small for the fact that they had that problem instead of just listening attentively? Isn't it a fact, sir, that you, you know, like, so if I, if I cross examined you about your relationship, could you stand up to that? Could you acknowledge where you got it wrong and where you maybe got it right? And by the way, why wouldn't we as an exercise together, if we're in a relationship, why wouldn't we once a week? Tell me three things I did this week that made you feel loved. Tell me three things I did this week that I, I could have done better. Tell me three things I did this week that turned you on. Like I would say something like that latter one. You would be surprised at the answer. Like so many of those questions, like you'd be surprised at the answer. I spent so much time trying to get eight pack abs. And I remember once in a relationship saying, you know, what's like something I do that like turns you on and her going, Oh, you know, when, when the dogs come in from the rain, and you're like, toweling them off. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? She's like, I don't know the way they look at you. And you look at them and like your are your tattooed strong arms. Or like towel. I don't know. It's just super hot. And I'm like, what? I would never have guessed that. Like, that's the last thing on the list. The dogs are wet every day. Oh, my God. Yeah. I'm just from then on. I'm pouring water on them. But the truth is, like, if you really, sometimes the things that we are doing that make our partner feel loved, are so silly, and so small. They're that you know that I take two sugars and not three. They're that you, you know, always. Make sure that you know, I get this or that you, you asked how my mom was doing last week when you you know, after I talked to her, like, what did that do? It made me feel loved. Like, and what's the goal? The goal is to like for you, the goal is to make Chris feel loved. Chris's goal should be to make you feel loved. Because the goal of this game that there is no finish line for, and that none of us can win because every marriage ends in death or divorce. The goal should be that when one of us dies to look at the other and be able to say, hey, this person helped me become the most authentic version of who I am. And they're still my favorite person in the world. Like, and what better goal than that? Like, my son got married a few months ago. And I just remember thinking, like, that's just the goal. Like, the goal is, like, to get to the finish of this thing, because everything ends. And just be able to say, yeah, you helped me become me, authentically me. And I'm still, you're still my favorite person.
Speaker 3Such an interesting point, because today I feel like there's so many complications with social media. Like, and we feel like we have to do all of these things.
Speaker 4All the things.
Speaker 3Yeah, because we see on social media, everybody else being this perfect partner. And so I'm curious, like, is it actually better for us to post more or less about our relationship on social media? Is there a negative correlation between that and staying together? Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, I guess what I'll say is I think it's useful insofar as it identifies our common humanity at its best. Like, at its best, the connection of social media, the mass audience of social media, makes all of us feel a little less alone.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 2Even when we're actually alone. It makes us feel a little less alone. Like, oh, I'm not the only one experiencing that. The problem with it is so much of it is this performative self. And everyone is putting up their greatest hits. And we're all living our gag reel. And by the way, when are you on your phone? It's not when you're having, like, some wonderful peak moment. It's when you're, like, sitting on the couch feeling blah or on the toilet or whatever. And it's not, like, in a great moment. So you're watching everyone's greatest moments while you're kind of in one of your less great moments. And I think it's natural for us to feel smaller then. I think comparison's always been the thief of joy, and it continues to be. But I also think that, you know, there is a way that we could be using social media. To share the best parts of our partner. The problem is, is how people then perceive it. Like, are you flexing? Are you performing? Like, happy people are just busy being happy. They're not out there trying to convince everybody that they're happy. Like, who's that for? Like, I can't tell you how many people, you know, even celebrity clients of mine that, you know, they're in my office actively negotiating a settlement of their divorce. And meanwhile, they're, like, walking down the red carpet holding hands. They're doing interviews. Hashtag blessed. Like, you know, best husband ever. I mean, well, they've been separated for the last eight months. And they're like, oh, he's on set. And it's like, no, he's in an apartment with a different girlfriend in Malibu. Like, it's the reality versus the curated performative self. And I get that we're all kind of doing, I mean, for actor clients, they're always acting anyway to some degree. So it's not that foreign for them to just play another role, the role of the happy spouse. But it's unfortunate because, you know, it's a very human thing. To just watch what are other people doing. And, you know, people spend a lot of time trying to teach me the quadratic formula. Like, that was going to be important. Like, I needed to know how to divide fractions. Like, they spent a lot. There were some nuns in Catholic school that thought this was essential that I know this. Like, never used it in my whole life. But so many things about relationship. Like, someone could have taught me. They could have given me a manual. Like, this is too important to go unmanual. Like, there should be a manual. There should be some basic thing about here's the care and feeding of connecting to another person in really basic ways. And I don't think that it's actually that hard. I think we just have to be humble enough to say this isn't as easy as it looks. And otherwise, what we do is we learn the way. Like, I think one of the reasons there's a synergy between our work and our writing. Is you're very kind of counterintuitive in some of your thinking. Like, okay, if everyone's doing this, maybe look at this. Like, and the more that people are trying to, like, say, oh, this is the wrong way. Like, maybe there's a contrarian way of viewing this. I think in relationships, it's really the same thing. Like, we really could just, it could be pretty simple and boring, the answer. Like, it may be boring is the answer. The answer is these little tiny habits of mine. These little tiny daily. Practices these little weekly or so check-ins. It's not sexy. There's no course to take. There's no book to buy necessarily. I could fit it on an index card, but it's kind of simple. And we could have taught it to people at a younger age.
Speaker 3Is that why you say that, you know, affairs or breakups don't happen fast, they happen slowly?
Speaker 2Well, they happen, I think they happen like bankruptcies happen very slowly, and then all at once. Like, I think it's very gradual, like falling feels like flying for a little while, you know, and then you hit the ground. And I think that there's this, this gradual feeling of like, we fall in love so fast, we connect so fast, it's a ball of hormones, it's all kinds of exciting. And then we're, you know, again, I don't blame people for this. Like, I think you, you know, there's so much to do mentally, like the mental load is a real thing. Like, there's so much going on. And you, for some period of time in your life, like finding your person is the thing. Like, there's so much you do, like so much you wear so much you think, should you work? How can I find my person? And then you find them and you're like, Oh, thank God, like one less thing. Like now I can focus on the other stuff, because there's so much other stuff. And now I, by the way, I can probably do that better, because I got like somebody there, that's great, you know. But then you kind of forget that I wanted this so bad. It was so important, you know, and it's easy to just let those other things come fully into focus. I mean, a baby is a great example of that. They require tremendous amounts of attention, they require tremendous amounts of emotional and physical bandwidth. And there's a part of you that kind of can forget. You know why this baby's here? Because the two of us loved each other enough to rub our parts against each other. Like, that's how this happened. So like, why not try to keep in our line of sight? Like, hey, you know, our love built this person, like, and let's give each other the gift of like paying attention. Because again, I think it's all about just paying attention. I understand why our attention gets pulled to other things. I don't fault anybody for that. It's so human, like we need, we need to attend to other things. But very quickly, we forget how important this was and is. And I think if we don't pay attention to it, it's very easily falls apart.
Speaker 3Quick aside, everything James talks about comes back to one thing. Relationships that last aren't the ones built on wishful thinking. They're the ones where people actually do the work and get clear on the terms before things get hard. Same goes for a business. Hope won't grow a company. At some point, building takes real resources. So let me tell you about a new business lending product from SoFi. SoFi has a small, small business loan lending platform that is built for growth. You can apply without affecting your credit score. And if approved, get funding as soon as 24 hours later. Here's the part I really like though. The pricing is clear and upfront. So you'll see your terms before you accept. No surprises, no penalties for paying your loan off early. It's built for solopreneurs and small businesses. If you're looking for capital to buy, build or grow, head to SoFi.com slash Cody or click the link in the show notes. Your business moves fast. Your financing should too. SoFi small business loans are originated by SoFi Bank N.A. Subject to eligibility and approval. Terms and conditions apply. This is a paid SoFi partnership. How often is having a kid actually one of the impetuses for divorce?
Speaker 2I think it's an impetus for the disconnection that is the impetus for divorce. And I think for very valid reasons, which is a baby, A, requires a tremendous amount of your time and attention. You experience a love for this creature that is nothing like you've had before. And it's dependent on you. I mean, we emerge half formed and hope whoever meets us on the other side is going to like take care of us. And it's a beautiful, amazing thing. But for a little while, it's kind of exhausting and terrifying and stressful. And none of us really know exactly what we're doing. And we feel like we're doing it wrong for sure, because whatever you do, somebody on the Internet is going to tell you you should have done it differently and better. And you're doing it wrong. And the baby's going to come out wrong as a result of it. It's all your fault. And it all feels like it's all on the line all the time. And this other person who wants you to be happy and loved and feel good is as terrified and frustrated as you are and sleep deprived as you are. And it's like there's so much and both of your everything's kind of off. And for a woman in the relationship, like your body feels out of control. And like, you know, you get out of the hospital, you're like four months pregnant. Like it's just not the same. And again, for the guy, it's like, hey, you know, like, I can't wait to have my wife back. Wait, what do you mean the boobs aren't for me right now? Who are they for? I just met this kid. I don't like them that much to trade those. Like that doesn't seem fair. But again, and by the way, and I think it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to be like, what now I got to tend to you too. Like, can I handle, can I just handle this for a minute? Like, can everybody leave my boobs alone for a minute? I get it. But the truth is like, again, like if we could just identify it first, like instead of getting caught up in what do we owe each other? Like, I don't owe you this and you don't owe me. You're right. You don't, you don't owe anybody anything in that. Like, but don't you want to be connected to each other? Like, don't you want your partner to feel loved and seen? Like you don't want no one meant to be in my office. I mean, one of the reasons why I find my profession so humbling and fascinating is that like, we're just all so full of shit so much of the time. Everything we do, we're like, well, I meant to do that. It was a learning experience. You can't pretend you meant to get divorced. You didn't. You can say, hey, it's good. It's the right thing. Okay. You can say that. But when you were walking down the aisle, you were not like, yeah, this is going to go down in flames. Like you believed that this was going to work out and then it didn't. And now what? You know, and now what? Like, I think you can own that. I think you can be like, yeah, the barn's burned down and now I can see the moon. Like there's something beautiful to be found in here. There's an opportunity for reinvention to be found here, to learn about what you do wrong in relationship and what you do right and how to do it better next time. And I think that can be an amazing thing, but you don't have to wait to get, you know, divorced to do that. Like you, you can do that right now. Like you don't have to wait. Like when people have a crisis in their marriage, someone's parent is ill or dies, something horrible happens. There's this shared sense of, oh my God, like I got to take care of this person. Are they okay? Like my partner's like going down. Like I need, they need me. You don't have to wait. The thing, pretend the thing happened like every single day. Like you don't have to wait till January. 1st to change your life. You can change your life on a Tuesday in the middle of August. It doesn't matter. Like, and I think that's the thing where we're just lost. The plot of is where we're again, like babies are amazing and they're exhausting and they can be both things. Spouses are amazing and exhausting, you know, and they're the greatest strength for you. And they're also kind of a drain sometimes. Like things don't, there's a reason. Why little kids really like professional wrestling, because it's like really clear who the good guy is and really clear who the bad guy is, you know? And like, we love that. We love a world where it's just good guys and bad guys and that's it. And you know who the bad guy is because they're dressed a certain way. And the certain music comes on when they come out, you know, the good guy is because they're dressed a certain way. And as the music comes up, that's not how it works. Like the line of good and evil runs through the human heart. And none of us wants to cut a piece of our own heart out. Like we all contain foolishness. We all contain foolishness and selfishness and weakness in us. And we all contain beauty and love and connection in us. And I think that if love is anything, it's the invitation to like, try to help your partner every day, see the best parts of themselves because you try to keep that in your
Speaker 3own line of sight. What do you think that women get wrong about what men want in a marriage or
Speaker 2relationship? What don't we understand? I mean, men and women get so much wrong about it. I mean, men and women get so much wrong about it. I mean, men and women get so much wrong about it. I mean, men and women get so much wrong about it. I mean, men and women get so much wrong about it. Why in my heart and in many people's hearts, when I say to you, do you know how hard it is to be a man sometimes? Why your first reaction is to go, I'm sorry, do your hormones fluctuate wildly every 28 days? Do you have to fit your feet in heels? Do people, when you're working, tell you you should be at home and when you're home, tell you you should be working? Like really? Because it's so easy being, well, what if I just said, you know, it's really hard to be a man sometimes. You went, really? Tell me about that. How? Because I've never been a man. I don't know. I have a bunch of them in my life that I care about. So I'd really like to know, like, what's that like? Tell me what, tell me what's hard about it, you know? And, and I only learned that like in the last couple of years that like, stop hearing it that way and start hearing it as, no, I don't know what it's like to be a woman. I can try to imagine when you, when you describe it to me, like, do you know what it's like to be objectified? Do you know what it's like to feel like you don't know what if someone's taking you seriously? Do you know what it's like? I don't know exactly what that's like. I've had examples in my life of circumstances where that happened. So I can, I can feel some empathy when you describe it to me. But the first step is for me not to hear it defensively. And I think in relationship, that's a big, big piece of this. One of the things that women right now get really, really wrong because the culture is jamming it down their throats is that any time a man, says anything about what's difficult for him that it turns into a pissing match between the two of them of, do you know how hard I have it instead of you? And there's, it's just so dismissive and unnecessary. Like we all have things we're grappling with. And if we love each other, we can hear that without it being defensive. I also think one of the mistakes I see a lot of women make in relationship is mistaking, like saying, well you should have talked to me about that, but not creating conditions where a person can feel safe talking about something like telling a woman something she doesn't want to hear is not something men are good at. We don't like it. It's not fun. Like when you guys are upset, there's nothing more frightening to a heterosexual man than the sound of a woman you're dating saying, what's wrong? Nothing. No, no it's definitely something like what's the something? No, nothing. It's fine. Oh my God. Like it's definitely bad. Like what, what did I, what did I do? What did I say? Is something going, is it me? Did something, I think creating conditions where we can have conversations with each other about like what's really going on here and where we can disappoint each other a little, like where I can, I can tell you something you don't want to hear. Like I can't tell you how many women come in and their husband's cheating on them. And they say like, well, you know, it's, he's humiliated me. Like if he just, and I'll read the papers that they filed and I'm like, they hadn't had sex in 70, 70 years. And she's like, well, you know, he never told me that and you're like, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like you're, you're telling me if he had sat you down and said, listen, I feel like we're really physically disconnected and I feel like my eye is starting to wander and I don't want to go down that road, but like we really need to reconnect somehow that your response would have been, well, thank you for sharing that with me. It's hard for me to hear that, but I really appreciate that. No, the answer would have been, well, what the fuck do you want from me? Like you're never home. And then when you get home, you're all kinds of stressed. And I'm supposed to just like show up in a negligee in those circumstances. Come on. Like it turns into this defensive thing. And again, men are partly to blame for that because when you go like, well, how come we're not having sex anymore? Okay. We're off to a bad start. Like that's going to bring out nothing but defensiveness. Whereas if he said, you know, I drove past that restaurant that we went to remember that weekend when we first were dating and I drove, I drove past it. And all I could think about was how I remember after that, we went back to my apartment and we like, didn't leave the bed for like a day and a half. That was like the best man. Like I just, I think about that day. Sometimes now we're in, now we're in, I'm like prime in the pump now because now you're like, okay, come with me. Remember, come with me. Remember how fun that was. Remember when we were so connected to each other. Remember how close we felt to each other and use that as the entry point to be like, you know, I, we should make time for that. Like, I, I'm sorry if I don't make time for that. Like I, I love feeling that connected to you. Now we're having the same conversation. Why, why haven't we been as physically connected, but instead of it being a criticism, it's about come with me to this place where we used to be together and, and somehow we're not there anymore. And that's your fault and my fault and everybody's fault and nobody's fault. I don't care. I don't care whose fault it is. I just want to be there with you. I still think you're wonderful.
Speaker 3Why is that the natural state for relationships where we get so defensive with like our partner in a way that almost, I don't think we get defensive when anybody else gives us feedback.
Speaker 2Well, I think we feel like, it's safe venting with our partner because it's like, no, you're here. You're stuck with me. There's a sense of that. Like marriage, you know, marriage is like a moat around a relationship. Like a lot of people are like, I'm going to boot this moat. And then it'll, we'll have this ring. And that means we'll be together forever. It's like, no, it doesn't like that's, you know, I have a friend Mark Delaney who's a psychedelic facilitator. And he, he often says to me, it always makes me laugh. He's like, relax. Nothing's under control. Like relax. Nothing's under control. Like, and it's true. Like I try to tell myself that all the time. I'm like, relax. Nothing's under control. Like there's, because marriage is a symbol. That's all it is is a symbol. We've decided we're going to create this legal connection or spiritual connection. That's going to symbolize this way of keeping the relationship safe. It's an illusion. It's not real. It's still worth symbols are worth something. Like, I think we live in a world of symbols. Like I'm, I'm wearing one. Like I, I could go to court and do a really, really good job cross-examining somebody in shorts and a t-shirt. It's just my brain. You don't need the rest of me. Like the Ferragamo shoes don't do it. Like it's, but why do I wear this? It's a symbol. I take this seriously. It's a symbol of, I, I am wearing this because I want you to know I take this interaction seriously. Well, that's all marriage is, is a symbol. You're just trying to create this symbol of our, but to then think that you've now really dug a successful moat around this thing. And it's impervious to the slings and, and arrows that are coming at the relationship. You're kidding yourself.
Speaker 3It's so true.
Speaker 2If anything, it actually makes you maybe drop your defenses. She was like, Oh no, we got the moat. We got this thing around it. Now we're good. We're married. No, it's not safe. The illusion that it's got a wall around it and a moat around it will make you forget that it's fragile. Love is not permanently gifted. It's loaned, you know, and, and maybe remind yourself regularly that there, there were 8 billion options and you pick this person and they picked you. So why not protect that thing?
Speaker 3Yeah. The symbol's so true. I mean, I do think about why I take, you know, Kim Kardashian so seriously on her show is the outfits.
Speaker 2I think it's exactly right. You know, you could literally never let me live that down every, the minute, you know, the minute that show got renewed, you texted me that day, that day.
Speaker 3I love it. It's so campy and amazing. And every time the outfit shows like a thong, I just, I put your face on the outfit and I just find such joy.
Speaker 2I am so glad that it gives you this level of joy. I have to say I take joy in how much joy it gives you. I really do because you're torturing me. You're torturing me. I'm in my office, not wearing a thong and like I'm in my office. That's not shaped like a Volvo with windows. Like every office in that show is incredible. It's like a journey. I'm in architect's dream. And instead we're like in these sterile buildings in conference rooms. With fluorescent lights. Yeah, fluorescent lights and a bunch of like short balding dudes.
Speaker 3No Kardashians.
Speaker 2And none of us are like, I'm having sex with your clients. Like, well, so am I. You know, like it, it's none of that. Like that, I watched that show and I'm like, this job is so exciting. I think I want to be a divorce lawyer when I grow up. Like, I feel like the interns are coming in for the summer now. And they're like, why isn't everybody having sex in the conference room table? This is, you guys suck. I thought you were like a cool firm, you know, like.
Speaker 3Yeah, the tattoos, you really were selling it.
Speaker 2I really was. Yeah, I know. They haven't asked me to do a guest spot on that show yet. I can't imagine. They really need to. And I'd love to do a cameo. I'd love to do a cameo. Whoever out there, Kim, hit me up. I'm in.
Speaker 3Oh my God. I would watch it again just for that.
Speaker 2Just for that.
Speaker 3You know, I want to go back to men and women again. So you've also said that men and women actually experience cheating differently. What does that mean?
Speaker 2I mean, again, this is an unfalsifiable, double premise because it's just based on my observations. But that's, you know, 26 years worth of representing the cheated and the cheated on, you know, so the cheater and the cheated on. So I've seen both sides of that equation. What my observation has been is that when there is cheating, well, first of all, like we've created a culture where it is totally unacceptable to take someone back after cheating, even though cheating is such a regular thing. Like it, I mean, adultery as a technology has been around probably like five minutes shorter than monogamy. Like, I feel like there was a caveman somewhere who was like, I think you and I should just be together, just the two of us, and then walked out and saw another person in a loincloth and was like, well, maybe real quick. Like there had to be, because it's been, I mean, if you think about it, like if you believe that God gave us 10 rules, you know, two of them were don't commit adultery. Don't cover your neighbor's wife. Don't commit adultery. Thou shalt not kill got one. Like you just had to say that once, but like don't commit adultery. Seriously, don't come at your neighbor's wife, dude. Like God felt he had to repeat himself on that one. That's whether you believe that that was like divine providence or not. It'll tell you the problem has been around a while. You know, if it was carved in stone somewhere, it's been around a while. Whoever invented it. So we've been dealing with this for a while, but we also do not give people the grace of like, yeah, this person made a mistake. This like I represent a lot of people that cheated. None of them ever. Woke up and said, you know, I think I'm going to fuck my whole life up today. I think I'm going to completely ruin it, damage my partner and their trust in me and their trust in anyone forever and also probably cause some collateral damage with this other person who I'm going to have this triangulated relationship with. I think that's going to be a good use of time today. Like usually it's just this small progression of kind of poor decisions, things you probably knew you shouldn't do. And again, like I don't fault people for that. Like I give people some grace for that because I'll tell you. Something like it's a bad metaphor, but like if there's potato chips in my house, I'm eating them like I'm eating them like that's why I don't buy potato chips because I can control my food environment better than I can control my brain. I don't trust my brain like and I don't trust my stomach, but like I trust the fact that when I'm in the store, I don't have to buy potato chips, so I don't buy them. Or if I buy them, I go, OK, I'm going to eat them like you hang out the barbershop long enough to get a haircut. Like if I'm talking to a bunch of beautiful women on a regular basis, I'm going to want to have sex with. one or more of them. That's how it works. So if I'm in a committed monogamous relationship, don't do it. Don't give yourself that occasion to do that. Like, like make a point of protecting that and not doing it. The thing that's interesting to me, and I've, I've, I've talked about before, and I talk about my book is the question when people are confronted about adultery, because the man's first question is, did you have sex with him? And the woman's first question is, do you love her? And that tells me something about how men and women perceive relationships slightly differently. Now, again, not every man, not every woman, but as a general category, I, I think women, a lot of it is about, is this person now in a higher priority than me? Do you have a deeper connection, affection, desire for, you know, protective instinct toward, like, are they more important than me? Because there's something about, like, being so important to someone. And for men, there's this sense of, like, this woman is my woman. She's my, you know, I don't want to say property, but she's mine. Like, she's mine. And I don't want anyone else to be able to lay claim to her, to her body. It's just mine. It's just for me, you know? And by the way, a lot of women, I think, would find that very appealing for a man to say, like, yeah, like, you're mine. Like, I want you to be mine. I don't, like, I've had lots of women say that. I've had lots of problems in relationships because I'm not a very jealous person. And more than once, a woman has been like, like, don't you care about me? And it's like, of course, I'm just not insecure. Like, I, you can be flirtatious with people as long as you come back to me. Like, I don't, you know, as long as we have lines that we're not going to cross, like, if you want to go out with your girlfriends and dance and flirt and stuff, like, I don't care. Like, I'm not insecure. It doesn't bother me. If the only thing that's keeping you from running off with other men is that you're not proximate to other men, we're in trouble. Like, I'm not in trouble. I'm a fan of monogamy, a model of monogamy where I have sex with as many people as I want, which is one, just one. Because, like, when I'm full, I don't want to eat anymore. Like, when I'm satisfied, I'm satisfied. So if you're in a relationship and you're satisfied, great. Like, monogamy for me and all this idea of cheating is the idea that you're not going to cheat because that's the rule we've agreed to. Because that seems really stupid. Like, okay. Chris came home and he was like, listen, I just want you to know, like, there's a bunch of women I really wanted to have sex with today, but I didn't have sex with any of them. I totally stayed with the rules. Like, what do you want, a cookie? Like, okay. Like, how am I supposed to feel better about that? Like, whereas if it was, yeah, like, I'm happy. I got you. What do I want more? I got you. I don't need anything more than that. Like, that's what monogamy is supposed to be. So when does it become no longer our responsibility if we're going to be in a relationship to make sure that our partner is not cheating? If our partner feels physically connected to us, I think we owe it to our partner. Like, if you're, I've always said in relationship, like, if you're going to rob me of solitude, you owe me companionship. If I'm going to trade having sex with lots of women for having sex with you regularly, then that's the deal. Like, that's the economy that we've agreed to. And I think that's very fair. And I'm asking you to do the same thing. So I have, I owe it to you to try to satisfy you. You owe it to me to try. You owe it to me to try to satisfy me because we don't have to do this thing. We don't have to have that rule. We can say, OK, we're going to sleep with other people. But if we're going to have this thing, why don't we just call out that economy and say, hey, let's make sure that we're protecting these values.
Speaker 3James has this incredible line about how a good lawyer knows the law and a great lawyer knows the judge. Business works the exact same way. There's like a game underneath the game that the pros play every day and other people don't even realize they're playing it. Actually, my new book, Owner Beyond. Well, this is a good book. This is it right here. Isn't it cute? This is the manual for scaling your business towards more profit and less pain. I spent 15 years inside the biggest companies on Wall Street watching private equity buy good businesses for pennies and great businesses for billions. You want to know what separates them? Great businesses use these systems, the systems that run businesses so good the owner can grow alongside the business as opposed to getting owned by it. It's the exact operating system I use across the businesses that make up. It's the exact operating system I use across the business that make up. The same ones I teach to thousands of owners in our contrarian boardroom, but it costs them tens of thousands of dollars a year. Owner Beyond is for you and we are going to do so many giveaways live. You're not going to be able to handle it on September 18th with a free live event. Every attendee is going to get something that I wish I got 10 years ago. It would have made me way more money. So scan the link in the QR or click the description. Let's get back to my conversation with James Sexton. What percentage of divorces have you had?
Speaker 2Uh, you know, affairs are non, I mean, a massive number, a massive, I would, I would be speculating because it's hard to measure those things. I would say close to 70 to 80% where there's some, where infidelity played some part in some degree, like how many is I fallen in love with another person and I'm leaving you. That's a smaller percentage, although still shockingly high. Um, but there's a lot of like, yeah, he cheated and I took him back or she cheated and I took her back. And then. You know, she still betrayed me in this way or that way. There's a lot of, yeah, they were flirting with this person or like a lot of times. And again, I, I tend to think that I look at the infidelity, the financial impropriety, the dishonesty, all as the, the symptoms of the underlying illness and the illness is the disconnection.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2The lack of attention, the lack of attention, the lack of connection, the, you know, the most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves. Like we lie to our partners all the time, but it's mostly because we're lying to ourselves. Like we're, we're busy thinking about who we wish we were and not looking at who we actually are, you know, and we're relating to the world and our partner. Like this is who I want to be, not who I actually am, you know? And I had a, some years ago, my, one of my sons, my younger son, he's 26 now, but he had a very difficult moment in our relationship as father and son. And he was, he was venting to me about the things I would, I would, I had gotten wrong like as, you know, and I, I wanted to create space for that. And he was like, you know, you, you're so occupied with work all the time and you were never here for this. And, and I like really listened to what he had to say, you know, and I wanted to hear it. Like I wanted to hear it and absorb it and not be defensive. But about halfway through this sort of venting, I said, you know, Bill, you know, I'm not who are you comparing me to? Like, are you comparing me to your imaginary perfect father? Because here's what I'll say. You're allowed to do that, but then I'm going to compare you to my imaginary perfect son and you suck. Like he's a black belt in Brazilian jujitsu. He is so cool. We have so much fun. He and I, he's like finishing law school or med school right now, but he's like not stuck up about it. And he's got the same taste in music as me. And we go to like concerts together. Sometimes. And like every father's day, he like posts some pictures that he and I, and he's like best dad ever. Like you suck compared to him. You're like awful compared to him. Like, but, but by the way, I love you like so much, like so much. It hurts. It's like looking at the sun, how much I love you. Like, I can't, once I look away, it's like, I love you that much. Just you, the way you actually are not my, as you compare to my imaginary son. Like, so could we? And I said to him, like, if you don't learn this in our relationship, just learn it because if you compare a woman in your life someday, if you compare your wife someday to your imaginary perfect wife, she is going to disappoint the shit out of you. So compare people to real people compare or, or learn how to like meet someone where they're at, because that's how you want to be loved. Like, if you want me to love you for who you are, not who I am as compared to this imaginary perfect ideal, you have to be prepared to give me that same grace. And I think that's the part in relationship, like the algorithm has taken away our proclivity towards doing that. It is in fact, encourage the opposite enragement engagement, this boys versus girls bullshit that's out there that everyone has now picked up is like the greatest grift ever. Pander, pander, pander all these men being like, guys, let me tell you something. If a woman feels defensive around you, it's because you're the one who's attacking and all the women are like, you're the one who's attacking. Yes, he's so right. And like, it's everybody's just pandering to the algorithm. They want the traction. They want the engagement instead of like being honest with the somewhat complex truth, which is that look, women get it wrong. Men get it wrong. There's stuff women are dealing with that men aren't. There's stuff men's dealing with that women aren't. There's stuff we're both dealing with like men or woman, you know, like there's so much going on that again, like if we just stopped with this ridiculous combative approach that love is a zero. Some game like, listen, a world where men are flailing is not a world where women are thriving and a world where women are flailing is not a world where men are thriving. We are in this together, guys. This is a knife fight in a closet. Like, do you think that just stabbing is the answer? I promise you it's not. Are you happy? Do you feel better? Does your friends seem happier in their relationships or does everyone seem like they're just spiraling down into? Yeah, we all just hate the other side. The boys versus girls. Like. Thank you. Instead of just like acknowledging how how different some things are for us, but how much we love each other, sometimes inexplicably for the dumbest things, you know, like and it's just lovely to be loved like that and to feel that love for another person. Like, I just feel like we we could do so much better at that.
Speaker 3Well, it's funny because I remember I was texting you about one of our reels we did. And it was about what do men really want and what do women really want? And the TLDR was like, men want the nudes, women want the flowers. And there was a lot more context and tongue in cheek about it. But people in the comments were crazy. They were like, so mad at you. They're like, how dare you say that men love the female body? No man should ever want that because we're going to that. That means he's going to post you on every public profile and you monster. Right. And then, you know, then, of course, the other women were like, I hate fucking flowers. We were like, well, like everybody. Calm down for a sec.
Speaker 2But I really do think a lot of people wake up just looking to get offended now and they get right on there, like looking to get offended. And I get it. I get it, man. I post in ghosts like I try not to engage it because when I do engage it, like I try to engage it the way I would engage cross examination, which is like it's you know, you're going to argue with me. I get paid a thousand dollars an hour to argue. It's a bad fucking idea. Like, well, first of all, I won't do it for free. Like, it's not fair to the paying customers. Like, so I'm not. I used to say to my sons when they were teenagers. I'm sorry. I can't argue with you for free. Like, that's not cool. Like, people pay me a lot of money to argue for them. I can't do it for you for free. That's not OK. Like, I'll get you a gift certificate for Christmas. I'll argue with you for two hours. Like, there you go. You can space it out in six minute increments if you want to.
Speaker 3This is a new business line for you. I would a thousand percent participate.
Speaker 2Would you want to buy an argument?
Speaker 3I just would be like, oh, God, I didn't even see that left hook coming.
Speaker 2No, it's not fun. But but the truth of all of this is we we're really again, it goes back to that other thing I said. When I say, you know, a lot of men really like nudes, guys, it's true. Like, you don't have to like it. It doesn't have to be true for your relationship. OK, but it's true. Generally, it's true. Like, so it's OK to just say that. Like, I didn't say, did you know all men like nudes and you owe them nudes? Did you know that? Like, if I said that, it's a perfectly reasonable response to be like, you have your head up your ass, Jim. I made a totally. I made a totally honest comment that no reasonable person would argue against and I get pilloried for it and it's totally fine. I don't really care because the truth is, is if you want to conduct the orchestra, you got to turn your back on the audience. Like, I don't care. The reason people when people come up to me on the street and say, oh, my God, I really love your work. And it's always the same thing they say. You're like so blunt. You just say it like it is. You just and I'm like, you know, because I'm just I don't care. Like, I think it's totally OK. And by the way, I don't mean that in the. Like, well, I don't care kind of way that people like intentionally like, no, I really don't like I really like my beliefs don't require you to believe them. It's OK. I have a very defined sense of self. And by the way, I can see the possibility I might be wrong. There have been times where I've had it. You can't talk for as many hours as I do on interviews and not get some things wrong or have a blind spot. Oh, I had a woman the other day send me a message on Instagram about like here. I think you got this take wrong. And I wrote her back and I was like, oh, yeah. You know, I actually think this. And she wrote back and we ended up having like a really interesting dialogue. And I thought to myself, this is lovely. Like, it's lovely because she didn't start with you're obviously a misogynist scumbag. Like, it was like, OK, that. Wow. Like, why don't you share with me why you think something differently? And then I'll share with you where I was coming from. And maybe we'll find some commonality together.
Speaker 3It's so funny. I always think of the I forget who the comic is, but he famously talks about how he's like, you know what? The Internet's comment section is like you go to the park. There's a. There's a like guitar lesson sheet up on the wall on the bottom or like, you know, your name, number, guitar lessons. You call if you want a guitar lesson and you just randomly pick it up. You dial the number. The other person answers and you go, I don't want fucking guitar lessons. Yeah. Like, OK, don't call the number.
Speaker 2Yeah. Go anywhere. I'll even take it a step further. It's like you call and go, why you hate tubas? It's like, what did I say about tubas? No, because all the only thing people need to learn is how to play guitar. Like, really? Really? Drums don't matter. Percussions useless. Like, I literally said none of that. Like, I actually don't even feel that way. Like, I it's better when there's a drummer with what? How? Why am I defending myself right now? Like, what is this conversation? Who are you, by the way? Like, who are you? I don't know you. You don't know me. Why do you hate me? But again, like that, that's got nothing to do with me. No, like I'm I don't know who hurt you. If the nudes comment upset you that much. I'm sorry. They did like they shouldn't have like as a human being. Like I they should. That's awful. Whatever must have happened to you that made you feel that way. Also, I love flowers. Flowers are lovely. And I love nudes. I love nudes or flowers. Ideally, flowers with nudes. Like, what a combo. It's like pizza. When it's good, it's great.
Speaker 3When it's bad, it's still pretty good. I don't know. I feel like I asked Chris the other day. I was like, seriously, I find such joy when I look at these flowers and I walk by. I don't know what it is. I find massive joy looking at this flower. I go, what do you feel? He's like, not a damn thing. I feel nothing inside looking at this flower. And I said, do you think that's normal? He's like, I think this is quite normal.
Speaker 2And I think there's something really beautiful about that, though.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2Because I think, again, I don't want to be in a relationship with me. Like, I like polarity. Like, I like something different than me. Like, I think that the softness and the hardness of us. I think the fact that, like, that there's just a lid. For every pot. Like, there's something different. And I think there's something so beautiful about that. Like, I can't learn everything I need to know about myself from myself.
Speaker 4No.
Speaker 2Like, I need someone different than me who's going to help me see things differently. And who's going to see things themselves differently. That makes me. Like, there's something so amazing about you saying, like, isn't that beautiful to you? And me going, no, I don't see it. You know? Like, but doesn't another person's excitement excite you? Oh, for sure. Like, I don't. Like, I'm a New Yorker. I've been a New Yorker a long time. I live in Manhattan. I don't watch basketball. But, God, everybody was so excited about the Knicks. How could you not be? Like, New York comes together. But usually we come together because of tragedies. Usually it's like 9-11 or Katrina or COVID. And, like, this was, like, everyone. The Wall Street executive and the bodega guy are both standing outside the bar watching the thing on the screen and cheering at the same time. And it was like I was so excited about everyone's excitement. Like, I've never played golf in my life. But I have friends who play golf. And when they talk to me about golf, they talk to me about it like they were talking about a lover. You know, that they're just. It's like when Chris and I went off at our dinner about Brazilian jiu-jitsu. And you just sat there for, like, a couple of minutes just watching us turn into two little teenage boys, like, all excited about. Well, I do a bow and arrow choke. I put my arm underneath. Oh, yeah. I find with the gi, it's a lot. You know? And you're just sitting there watching the two of us. And I remember the look on your face. It was one of, like, oh, my God, you guys are so cute. Like, you're so excited right now about, like, your little ground karate. Do men like to be called cute? Well, I think we. I don't know if we like to be called cute. But I think behind closed doors, knowing that, like, a woman who loves us thinks we're cute. Thinks we're cute is allowed.
Speaker 3Like, yeah.
Speaker 2Like, I don't know if I said to you, like, oh, Cody's so cute. You'd be like, excuse me. It's kind of condescending. But if you heard, like, Jim was like, oh, my God, you are adorable. You would be like, okay. Like, I don't mind being adorable.
Speaker 3What's interesting. Because, like, I remember reading somewhere that you were trained in persuasion. Or that was one of your.
Speaker 2Yeah, my master's degree is in mass persuasion.
Speaker 3And persuasion and negotiation, which is fascinating. Because it seems like a lot of communication and, well, marriage, according to you, a lot of it is about disconnection, bad communication, lack of attention. And then it seems like there's such difference in the way we communicate. You could say, oh, Jimmy's cute. Or you could say, Jim, when he is so excited talking about jujitsu and how tough he is, it's so cute, isn't it? Yeah. And those two things actually mean something very, very different.
Speaker 2Because the energy of that is so different. Right. The energy. And you know it as it's coming out of your mouth. Like, the energy of it is so different. And I think that, I think what you're really on to, and I think it's because you do have background in sales as well. I think in sales, we know that, like, it's not the steak, it's the sizzle.
Speaker 3That's true.
Speaker 2And that's what people want. And I think it's. It's really the way you parse it. You know, I always tell my clients that the way you ask the question very often dictates the answer. And the example that I always give is, there's a joke about, you know, these two monks and they're standing around together talking about praying and smoking at the same time. And they're having a disagreement about that. And so they both agree they're going to write the Pope. And they write the Pope. A couple weeks goes by and they come back and they say, well, turns out I was right. And the other guy says, what do you mean? It turns out. I was right. He goes, well, wait a minute. What did you do? He goes, I wrote the Pope. And I said, is it okay to smoke while you're praying? And he was like, no, when you're praying, you should be paying attention to what you're doing. And the other guy says, well, I wrote him and said, is it okay to pray while I'm smoking? And he was like, yeah, you should pray as often as you can. Like, if you pray whenever you want. Like, so how you ask the question dictates the answer. And so I think when you think about communicating with your partner, you know, last time we talked, I gave the example, which I think, again, got clipped and I got yelled at for. I gave the example of shaving and I talked about how When I dated a woman who, you know, had sensitive skin and how she would be like, oh, my God, your face is so scratchy and how it made me feel defensive and stupid and self-conscious and kind of irritated that like, oh, great. Now I got to shave every weekend as well as every weekday. And then the next relationship I had, she had the same issue, but she just did the like, oh, my God, you're so sexy when you're clean shaven. You're like Don Draper in Mad Men. You know, I would shave three times a day. But it was the same thing. She just parsed it in a way of like, here's what I love about you. Here's this thing that I find so sexy about you.
Speaker 3So what is the framework there? So like, let's say you want to you're in the courtroom. You're trying to get somebody to do what you want them to do. Is this priming? Like, what are the things you need to do?
Speaker 2Best cross-examination. Like, people watch Law and Order and movies like A Few Good Men, and they think that cross-examination is like, isn't it true that you're a terrible husband? And they're like, it's true. You're right. I get it. You know, like, I did it. I ordered. The code read like this is like a Perry Mason moment. It's not what good cross-examination looks like. Good cross-examination at the highest level is getting a person to commit to a set of principles that they think supports their argument and then snapping their neck with that.
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Speaker 2So, you get them to commit to. Now, sir, one of the reasons why you want custody of your son is that it's important for you to be there for him. Isn't that right? Yes. In fact, you don't just want to be there. On the weekends, you want to be there during the week because the heavy lifting of parenting is a really important part, isn't it? Yes. And in fact, if somebody just wants to do the fun part of parenting, they really have no business claiming that they're a real parent. Isn't that right? Now, what can you say but yes? Now, sir, isn't it a fact that you missed the last six parent-teacher conferences for your child? Like, isn't it a fact, sir, that on Wednesday nights, you participate in this basketball league instead of going to your son's? Now, again, I had you commit to principles. Principles. You thought were supportive of your argument. And by the way, if you disagreed with them, I can weaponize that against you, too. So, again, what is a good cross-examination? It's getting – it's just like in relationship. What – commit to the principle. Isn't it a fact that I'm an important person in your life? Yes. Isn't it a fact that I'm as important as your golf game? Yes. And yet, sir, isn't it true that the last three weekends you spent more time playing golf than talking to me? You know, like, isn't it? Isn't it a fact that I am more important to you than Instagram? Well, yes. Okay. So then how much of your bandwidth on your phone was spent on Instagram versus messaging or talking to me? Like, again, evidence, evidence, evidence. Like, it doesn't matter what I know. It matters what I can prove. If you cross-examined your relationship, yourself about your relationship, what principles would I commit you to? And then how would I snap your neck?
Speaker 3How do you counter that leading line of questioning with the one-word response? It's so good. Yeah. Like, what if you don't want to answer in one-word responses?
Speaker 2Well, that's the beauty of cross-examination. They have to. It's not a fair fight. They have to.
Speaker 4Interesting.
Speaker 2I've moved to strike the portion in the answer that was non-responsive.
Speaker 4Oh, man.
Speaker 2People all the time go, well, yes, but I wanted to move to strike the portion in the answer that's non-responsive. Like, you just keep – Can I use that in an argument? Yes or no. Isn't it a fact that you – and I can then make you look foolish. You can make me look foolish and evasive. Right. Isn't it a fact, ma'am, that you went to the pool that day? Well, yes, but I did – So, yes? Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm going to ask you a number of questions that are going to be yes or no questions if you could answer them accordingly. And you just pin the person down. Now, the thing that good lawyers do is I am as interested in the other side's case against my client as I am in my case against their client. I'm going to do what I jokingly in my office call the eight-mile strategy based on the Eminem movie, Eight Mile, where at the end, you know, he wins the rap battle by basically getting up and saying all the terrible things about himself that the other person is about to say. And then he hands the guy the mic and says, tell the people something they don't know about me. And the guy is just standing there like, because he's got nothing. He just – he shot himself with all the ammo that the other guy was going to hit him with. I do that in court all the time. I say to my clients all the time, we're going to do the eight-mile strategy. Which is every single thing they're going to hit you on cross-examination with, I'm going to hit you with first. I'm going to say, I show you what's been marked for identification as plaintiff's exhibit A. Do you recognize this? Yeah. What is it? This is a text message. Who's it from? It's from me. Who's it to? To the defendant, my wife. Uh-huh. Could you read it out loud for the court? I'd rather not. Go ahead and do it anyway. I can't fucking stand you and I wish you would die. I think – did you write that to her? Yes. You think that was a good thing to do? No. Do you think that helped your co-parenting relationship? No. What effect do you think that had on her? It probably really upset her. Why did you do it? She had sent me 30 text messages in the last two days where she just cursed me a million times and finally I just lost it and I just sent her this nasty text message. If you had it to do over again, would you send that text message? You know, I'd like to say that I wouldn't, but the truth is I'm human and I have a breaking point and she had pushed me to it at that point and I did something stupid and I sent something as low as the 50 messages she sent me before. Boom. I just – and I'm watching opposing counsel just crossing out pages of the cross-examination they thought they were going to light my guy up with and it's gone. I just took it all away. I took all your ammo away. Now what? Now what? What do you have? You got nothing. I got out in front of it. I made a weakness into my client being so candid and honest about his humanity and about his breaking point. I just turned your prize-winning testimony into my client talking about the 50 mean messages her client sent. You know, so that's what good – like, that's why I love my job even after 25 years of doing it is that it's full contact storytelling. Like, I'm trying to tell a story while you try to stop me from telling that story. I'm trying to tell a story and tell a different story and it's the most fun job in the world for that reason.
Speaker 3What do you think the biggest mistake people make is when they're trying to persuade someone of something?
Speaker 2Well, you know, we were talking about it before we sat down that there's nothing less cool than trying to be cool. Yeah. And there's nothing worse than a salesman that you know is trying to sell you something. Like, the best salesperson, you just have a problem and they want to help solve it. Like, that's it. Like, and it's the same. The worst persuasion. The worst persuasion is blatantly obvious persuasion. Like, it really – like, the best advocacy does not look like advocacy. It's just me going, you know, Your Honor, I don't know. I'm not – listen, this guy walked into my office, hired me. If his wife had come in 15 minutes earlier, I'd probably be arguing the opposite of things. But you know what? It seems to me, looking at these two, that – and now, guess what? I'm advocating. It just doesn't sound like it. Like, it just doesn't look like it because it's not so obvious. Like, it's hilarious because when I litigate against, like, you know, like new lawyers or, like, self-represented parties because now with AI, everybody thinks they're a fucking lawyer. And they're sitting there, like, here are two, four, head here in. I'm like, you're trying to sound so much like a lawyer. You don't sound a damn thing like a lawyer right now. Like, but – and look, I get it. Like, when I was a young lawyer, I remember I – it was one of my first big, big cases. Like, I was probably five years into my practice. It was, like, first case where there was, like, a million-dollar marital estate or more. And I remember my adversary was a very experienced. High-net-worth divorce lawyer. And I was, like, this, like – you know, I'd never done a case this big. And so I'd studied, like, all of their marital assets and how it worked and did it on. The judge brings us into chambers and, you know, it's off the record. It's just the two lawyers and the judge. And I was like, oh, well, Your Honor, parties here have a fairly diverse asset profile that's somewhat complex in nature. They have an array of this. And obviously, I'm trying to, like, sound very learned. And I'm looking at my adversary who's clearly had, you know, 100 cases with this kind of thing. And we finish. And I finish my little. I finish my little speech and she looks over at my adversary and he goes, yeah, I don't understand their finances at all. It's, like, really complicated from what I can tell. We're just going to probably need accountants to explain it to us because I'm not an accountant. And I was, like, oh, shit. Like, that was so much better. Like, that was so much better. Like, he – and by the way, he totally understands it better than I do. But that, like, little humble goes a long way. Like, in that whole, like, yeah, I don't know. I was looking at it and I was trying to make sense of it. I'm not that – you know, you got to – You got to explain it to me like I'm a seven-year-old, you know. And it – and all of a sudden, like, oh, he's doing the thing. He's, like, doing the advocacy thing. But it's, like, oh, shucks. I don't know what I'm talking about. And I have to tell you, like, to me, that's the best lawyering. It's the best – like, the best negotiation, you don't know we're in a negotiation. The best seduction, you don't know I'm trying to seduce you. Next thing you know, you're just in bed with me. Like, and you kind of go, how'd that happen? You know, like, and that – because, again, the more that it's, like, right – like, I'm clearly trying to get you in bed. Like, that's not what's going to work. What's going to work is, like, I find you fascinating. Like, that is – like what okay you know like now you got my attention so i i really think that that's the best kind of advocacy is is that that covert advocacy yeah i always know i'm about to get
Speaker 3totally hoisted one over on in a deal when it's because i live in texas as you know but in texas when it's a an older texan and a slower draw and it happened to me once early on and now i know to look for it and he's like well you know i don't know i'm just a i'm just a slower texan over here from and i just i have so but explain to me and then proceeds to ask the most obliterating of questions but it's that self-deprecation why wouldn't i blah blah and then he explains the
Speaker 2counter theory that you're like oh shit i was hoping he didn't know that that was a possibility and so if you're paying this for that why wouldn't i just do this instead you must be dumb and you're like oh you're so much smarter i got nothing for this yeah i got nothing there's that's kryptonite right there and and look there's something again like don't sweat the technique like that is beautiful beautiful stuff and i i think we have a lot to learn from that because it's kind of all a negotiation isn't it like all of this stuff our whole lives is a series of negotiations it's a series of arguments like we got it in our heads that like an argument is about making the other person feel small but it's actually not it's really not it's a series of arguments it's a series of arguments it's really about like a series of logical steps to get a person to view things the way that you know your position would would help them be viewed that way like that that feeds into the flow you're trying to get them through so yeah i think there's a tremendous value in like watching
Speaker 3how people do it well yeah i know there was a there was a quote uh something like a good lawyer
Speaker 2knows the law a great lawyer knows the judge 100 yeah and that joke is funny on two levels because people think it means like oh we know the judge but what it means is i know what annoys this judge i know what resonates with this judge like there are judges here that i know they really like sports metaphors so i'll like my opposing counsel's hail mary passes that you know your honor he's trying to call an audible right now on this and i i i'm not into sports but i know enough that i can like use those metaphors you know who's a parent and who's not you know who's divorced themself and who's not like you know people's like you get to know what works with this judge sometimes by the way by being on the receiving end of the opposite like sometimes you make an argument you're like well that one didn't work or you watch your opposing counsel in this case make an effective argument and then you say well you know your honor as in that other matter we have together when my adversary said x y and z so you start to like know the judge's proclivities that's a lot of what you're doing when you hire experienced counselors you're hiring someone who kind of knows the proclivities of the judge but again that's all about just like in relationship it's all about paying attention like paying attention to this unique organism that's in front of you that's why at the end of a day at trial i'm i'm exhausted in a way that i i don't even know how to put into words because i'm it's kind of like when i was a waiter like it is so hard to make it look so easy yeah you know you go in the kitchen and it's like fire food on five i got this dying on the board and then you walk out and you're like everything's so serene you know of course i'll get that free right now you know and then you go back and you're like i need ranch on five you know like but the truth is like you it takes a lot of effort to make something look so easy the same thing happens in in courtrooms like by the time we walk into the courtroom the trial's like half over like when i was a kid my parents used to have barbecues and my mom would like go to the store buy all these ingredients chop everything up marinate it prepare it beautifully and my dad would take it put it on the grill and then take it off the grill and everyone would go oh my god no you're such a good cook like she had done 99.9 of the difficult work he had literally just been there for the last mile of the marathon if even like the 0.2 part of the 26.2 and he would get all the credit and i think that that's what happens at trials like at trials it's like by the time you walk in that courtroom all the prep work's done i think it's the same thing with relationships too it's like you know by the time you guys are in the fight it's kind of too late like a lot of people learn how to fight while they're in a fight that's the worst time to learn how to fight like really like when you're dating somebody and you're not in a fight have a conversation about getting in a fight like say to them by the way we're gonna get in a fight like it'll probably be my fault i'll probably say something stupid i tend to say dumb shit sometimes so when we get in a fight what how what works for you do you need a minute i like not try to force the conversation do you need to cool off or are you the like hey we got to figure this out tonight like we can't go to bed mad type because like i'll meet you where you're at you know like i again talking about things that no one ever taught me that it took me 50 years to learn like it took me 50 years to learn of being in unsuccessful relationships that i could just say like because i have one mode if i'm telling you about a problem i have i'm telling you about a problem i have i want your help if i say to you i'm having this problem with my son if i called chris i consider chris a friend if i called chris and i said chris i'm having this problem with one of my sons x y and z and he went that must be really hard jim i'd be like yeah no shit chris that's why i called you what should i do like what do you think i should do whereas and again it took me 50 years to figure it out a lot of times the women in my life in particular just want me to hear them they want me to hear them not try to fix it they interpret me explaining how they could fix it as belittling their emotional experience and not giving credit to their problem solving skills like they just want me to go oh man that sucks like that that's she shouldn't have said that to you that's really terrible man you didn't deserve that and then i can see them go thank you like yeah exactly that's what i thought like i didn't deserve it and i'm like yeah i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that no you totally didn't deserve that sucks like but again what would stop us in relationship from you come home and tell me something awful that happened to you today some deal fell through something went wrong something went and i go okay here's the menu there's a whole menu i can listen to this and i can just be here and listen to what you're saying i can give you some suggestions of what i think you might want to do to like deal with that or solve it or whatever we can go in the other room and take our clothes off and roll around and i'll take your mind off of it we can order a pizza and sit on the couch and watch that show that you wanted to watch and we'll just take our minds off of it we can you can pick anything on that menu and by the way if it's not working tell me and we'll switch to another thing right or if you want me to pick i'll pick i'll just start throwing stuff at it and if something's not feeling good tell me and we'll switch to another thing why can't we do why is it that we're supposed to be experts at this like i'm i'm 53 i've been in therapy for a good 20 years and i understand about 50 percent of this guy and i'm in here like i'm in here and i get about 50 percent of this guy and i get it wrong a lot of the time like what am i really feeling what am i really thinking why am i feeling like i'm in here and i'm in here and i get about 50 percent of this guy why is that bothering me why is that like i'm supposed to figure you out perfectly i'm not in there like i'm in here and i can't figure it out so could we give each other a little grace could we give each other a menu what would be wrong with just giving each other a menu isn't it lovely to have options like why do we like the cheesecake factory because i have no idea what i want to eat and it's got 80 pages in the menu and it's like okay i can have anything i wanted and by the way why do some people hate it because there's just too damn many choices so great i'll pick for you and if it's wrong okay then choose something else like let's let's do this
Speaker 3for each other there's no reason not to you've seen thousands of cases you've been married before yeah there's a 70 failure rate to marriage well roughly or like find failure yeah if it's not happily married but stay married whatever but i know you're in partnership yeah so like does marriage still work why do you go back to having a partner
Speaker 2love i think love is like when the question people most often ask me is being a divorce lawyer for 25 plus years do you believe in love do you believe in romantic love and and i have to tell you it it strikes me as the silliest question it's like someone saying do you believe in gravity i don't have to believe in gravity it's there it exists all around me like like love is is really it's the only thing that really matters to any of us like i genuinely believe that all of these other things are just symbols of our desire to be loved and to be worthy of love all of these accomplishments are just ways that we're trying to tell the world that we're worthy of love like that's really all they are like they really are just things we do so that someone we respect and care about says i'm so proud of you like what feels better than someone saying cody you wrote this book i'm so proud of you you have so much going on in your life and you found the time to do this thing and share it with the world i'm so proud of you for that you had so many reasons why you wouldn't get that done. And you got it done. I'm so proud of you for that. I'm so proud to know you. Doesn't that just do something to your heart that you go like, thanks. Thank you. And that's a real sentiment. That's a real thing. And by the way, it feels good to say it to someone I care about, to tell them I'm proud of them. Because I know how it feels when someone tells me they're proud of me. And I know how healing and wonderful and warm it feels. And I genuinely believe when I look back on my life, it's those moments of connection with another person that I will remember. I like to look at relationships as chapters in a long book. And a chapter ends and a new chapter begins. It doesn't mean that that chapter was a failure. Like I was married and it ended. And she's been remarried for 15 years to a wonderful man who's absolutely nothing like me. And I'm like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Except that we're both tall. Other than that, there's very little in common. And he's lovely. Like he's lovely. I got to hang out with him at my son's wedding for like half the day. We were doing the bow ties with the ushers and stuff. And it was like the greatest thing. And I loved her enough. And I loved her and knew her long enough that when I would hang out with this guy, I'm always like, oh yeah, he's perfect for her. Like he's perfect for her in all these ways that I just wasn't. Like I love her. But there's so many people that I love but wouldn't want to be married to. And I think that that's okay. Like I think that my ex-wife would say, Jim is a really great ex-husband. Like I love him, but I would never want to be married to him. And I don't blame her. Like being married is a skill set. And it's not a skill set for everybody. And again, we just assume that people are supposed to be married. And I think that's okay. And I think that's okay. And I think that's okay. And I think that's okay. And I think that's okay. And I think that's okay. And I think that's okay. Like if you say, I've made the decision to get married, it would be indelicate for a person to go, really? Why? Why? I mean, by the way, perfectly reasonable question. You're signing up for something with roughly a 70% failure rate. It's reasonable to go, really? Why are you doing that? Like that doesn't seem like a very good idea. Like what is the problem to which marriage is a solution for you? Like do you have that problem? Will marriage actually solve that problem? Like why are you doing this thing? You know? And it's... But instead, it's the opposite. I'm thinking I'm not going to do the thing that fails like 70% of the time. People go, really? Why? Do you have intimacy issues? It's like, no, I might just be rational. I might just understand math and how it works. But again, like, is that an invitation to turning off your heart and turning off the potential for connection? Like, no, I think I look back on every single woman I've ever had a romantic relationship with. And there is a moment that when I think of it, I smile. And I think like, oh, they made me a better person. Like I learned something about myself or about life or about love from them. And I really, really, really hope that my ex-girlfriends and ex-wife think, you know, my life was a little better for Jim's presence in it. And that like... He gave me something of value. And I gave him something of... Because I have to tell you, every woman I ever had a romantic relationship with, I got something of value from that relationship. And every single one of them, I know I never entered into that relationship with anything but good intentions. Like I wanted to love them well. And I didn't. And it wasn't that I, you know, I just didn't care about them. It was just that I didn't have the tools at that stage in life, at that moment. And I didn't have the tools. And I didn't have the tools. And I didn't care about them at that moment. I didn't have the tools or I wasn't the right fit for them. And it was never about wanting to hurt them or to fail them in some way. Like I failed with good intentions. That's something that people fail all the time at. I'm not ashamed of that. I refuse to be ashamed of that.
Speaker 3Yeah. Also, God, how much better off would we all be if more of us said that? I think the scary reason why we don't say that is because we're afraid that the other person might say, no, she's a real cunt. You know, just period. End of story. But instead, if you're like, well, you know, listen, everything doesn't end well. And I don't have any expectations about what the other person might have felt. But I learned something from.
Speaker 2Well, and accept the possibility. Like I remember, you know, my ex-wife and I now have been divorced 20 years. So it's a lot easier to talk about things from a distance. You know, when I talk about my mom's passing 10 years ago, it's a lot softer to talk about now than it was, you know, eight years ago when it was a fresh wound. Right. So time is healing in some ways. But I remember like early in our divorce, we were we were standing at like one of our kids track meets or something. And we were still there was still some hurt between us. And she said something like, you know, Jim, like you were like you just weren't there so much at the time. Like you just were just absent. Like you were just always thinking about work or always thinking of like you'll never love anyone the way you love the law. Like you're it was always this harsh mistress that was always in the room, you know. And and she was like, you know, when I was a good wife to you, like I was really there, like I wanted to love you and I wanted you to love me. And she was totally right. But I remember I said to her, I was like, OK. Like, let's accept that that's totally true. Like, let's take it a step further. You were absolutely perfect in the marriage. It was entirely my fault. I completely was the one who screwed it up. You have no blame in this whatsoever. It was solely me. Now what? Now what? We have two children together and our marriage is over. What what would you do? You want me to say I'm sorry? I've said it a thousand times. I'll say it as many more times as you'd like me to. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for all the things I got wrong and did wrong. I know I didn't mean to hurt you. I know I did. And I'm profoundly sorry for it. I really am profoundly sorry for my weakness as a human being, for my failings, for the things I get wrong. I'm so sorry. You deserve better than that. I'm sorry. Now what? Now what? It's everyone's fault or it's no one's fault, or it's all my fault or it's half your fault. Now what? What do we do? Like, we're here. We have the tools we have. We have the time we have. What are we going to do with it, guys? Are we going to go on the algorithm and talk about how much men suck and how much women suck and bring that energy into our next relationship? Or is it possible that we might be brave enough to be vulnerable and say, yeah, yeah, I'm human. I get some things wrong. I get some things right. You probably do too. Like I, I want the people in my life to see all my weaknesses. I really do. It's just like my case. Just like when I present my case, I want to get ahead of it. I want the eight mile strategy because here's the thing. If all I show you is how put together and phenomenal I am and I hide all the weak parts in me and all the vulnerable, stupid, silly, impatient, impetuous parts of me, all the shit I need to work on. If I hide all that, I will never feel your love. You don't love me. You love the character I'm playing effectively. No, like I want you to see all that stuff and go, yeah, I see all that, but that doesn't define you. You're all of this. You have all these weaknesses, but they're wonderful. You're perfect. How imperfect you are. You're great. Like that's how we want to be loved. That's how I want to be loved. And by the way, that's how I love the people I love. Like the people I love, like you can, you don't have to be perfect at all for me to love you. I love you more. Cause you're not like, I love you for your imperfections. I love all the things you get wrong and how you just keep trying. Like I, I want that. I want that kind of love. And I want to give that kind of love to another person. And I, I, I think if, if we could do more of that, we would all be a lot happier and I'd have to get a real job.
Speaker 3James Sexton. So good. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I can't wait for the next book,
Speaker 2which I hear rumblings maybe coming out in September of 2027. Who knew that the publishing cycle takes a damn long,
Speaker 3but, and where do you like people to follow the most? I personally like your Instagram.
Speaker 2Instagram. That's really it. I don't, I don't do any of the other things really. I mean, I think I have a Tik TOK, but I don't have it on my phone. Like I don't, I have people post it like for me, like, but I don't have anything to do with it. Yeah. The Instagram is at NYC divorce lawyer. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's, um, that's really a place to find me. I, I, otherwise you just find me down at 60 center street in Manhattan in the courthouse, you know, that's still on my list. You got to come. I got to come. Oh, it's the
Speaker 3greatest show in town. Following this priming thing. Oh, I know we can't have a camera in there. It's my main problem. That's what I was like. Can we, he's like, you cannot,
Speaker 2that's kind of what makes it fun though. Is it's like an experience that you have to just have in real life and then you don't get to, there's, we have increasingly fewer of those, like things that aren't so documented. It's kind of fun to just exist in time and not document it.
Speaker 3Plus, I just want to see how the judge interacts with you. The whole thing just seems
Speaker 2something, you know, what's funny. It's changed a bit because some of the judges now are like, like, oh, who does this guy think he is? Oh, I bet. Cause there's a lot of my adversaries just cannot. They're like, my door man was like, do you know James Sexton? I'm like, oh Christ. You know, like, and it's funny too, because I'm now the world's most well-known divorce lawyer for sure. I might be the world's most well-known lawyer. I think that's probably true, but it's really funny. Cause you know, like I'm, I have some colleagues that I think are way better at this than me. I don't know, but I think all
Speaker 3also you're one of the happiest attorneys I've ever met.
Speaker 2- I love it. That's the thing that I think separates me. Because I really love it. Yeah, I love the work.
Speaker 3Like I've met, I mean, we have a shit ton of attorneys that we work with. But by and large, they're super smart, very effective, not that multidimensional. And all of them, if I go, so would you have your kids fall on your footstep? They're like, oh, fuck, no, no.
Speaker 2I know. Yeah, it's so funny. Yeah, it's so funny. Yeah, I said to both of my sons, one of whom is a lawyer, but he doesn't do, he works for the court system. He's like the consigliere to a judge. He's like the hand of the king to a judge. He's what's called a court attorney. I have to tell you, I said to both of them, don't go into law to impress me. Go find something you love as much as I love the law and just go after it, whatever it looks like.
Speaker 3Because that's the fun thing to see anyways in anybody, not to mention your kids.
Speaker 2It's like I said about golf. I like just being around anybody who's super excited about something, even if I don't get it, even if I don't, your excitement excites me. Like if somebody is telling me about a book that they read that I have no desire to read, but they're so enthusiastic, I'm like, oh, I'm in. Okay, tell me all about it because your excitement excites me. I love the work. I really, it's why the funniest part for me is like I'll be on the subway coming back from the courthouse and like people see me and they're like, oh my God, you're the divorce lawyer who's like all over the, yeah. I'm like, yeah. And they're like, where are you coming from? I'm like the courthouse. And they're like, wait, you're still a lawyer? I'm like, yeah. What did you think? I just like do interviews and TikTok for a living. And they were like, yeah, that's what I thought. You write books and stuff. And I was like, no. This is just like the weirdest hobby.
Speaker 3I get the same exact thing. Like, no, you're an influencer now. I'm like, God, I wish. Yeah. I wish that I only did this however many hours a week. You have a full-time job. This would be sweet. You know, just a professional yapper. That's a profession.
Speaker 2Well, it's good that you've added parenthood to it. You know what I mean? Like throw that. Like you're going to be like, what are we doing with all this free time? You know? Like, I know.
Speaker 3Let's throw a screaming infant. I'm going to have to read your book so I don't get divorced and like obsessed with this
Speaker 2I mean, listen, I don't, Chris, Chris won't do better. You know what I mean? He's playing above the rim. I've told him that. I've told him that on a text thread. I was like, buddy, you're playing above the rim. You know, like you gotta, you gotta, he's a good man.
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