Divorce and Defamation: What to Do When Your Ex Tries to Destroy Your Reputation

Are you worried your ex is trying to defame you or smear your name during your divorce? Well, today's episode is going to be great for you because we're going to be touching on all the areas where this can happen and what you can legally and emotionally do about it to protect yourself going through this divorce or de facto separation. Welcome, Mum. Hello, Laura. Hello, everyone. Now, today's episode obviously has a trigger warning. We are going to be discussing sensitive topics like false allegations and family violence and reputation attacks. So if any, that may worry you too much, please make sure you're prepared and get some professional support moving forwards. You can also call 1-800-RESPECT or you can call 13-11-14-LIFE-LINE. And just another reminder that this isn't legal advice. This is just a general discussion about what people face when going through divorce. Mum is not your lawyer. I have not a lawyer. So we're just here to discuss and explore options and try and help perhaps guide you through where you can go to get the legal support or emotional support you need. Let's get to the jingle and let's get started. Hello, I'm Laura Furio, a divorce mother of three and I'm here with my mother, Lynette Galvin, with 35 years experience and family law. You're listening to the divorce course podcasts. Through our candid discussions, we hope to help you through your divorce or de facto separation. We will be answering the most commonly asked questions and covering the stages and steps that you will face on your way to freedom. Alright, Mum, so one of the things that we see happen all the time, like pretty much any high conflict divorce or manipulative controlling divorce, there is a smear campaign that can start. That takes people, they shock them. They shocks people. Some people they know it's going to happen, but other people are just completely blindsided and this kind of smear campaign starts happening where their ex is trying to infiltrate every element of their life, every corner of their world to try and get people to think badly about whoever's going through the divorce. Mum, is this something that's pretty common for people who come and see you or have seen you? Yes, it is common if one of the parties is a, shall we say, a dirty player, what they have several motives and one of them is to knock away your support so that you don't have anyone that believes you when you go to tell someone your story. That's one of the reasons. The other thing is to bring pressure on you even through your work or through court documents or talking to neighbours again so that they take their support away from you and they may even in some cases, I've seen people who were former close friends of one of the parties giving affidavit evidence and coming to court and talking against their former friend. So shock. And we're going to talk about these are the areas we're going to cover. We're going to talk about in the legal system because a lot of that's where Mum sees it. For affidavits reports, child protection, false aviodes, you name it, that's all there. But we're also going to be talking about with family friends, turning people against you at school, undermining you with teachers and staff. That seems quite common with professionals, telling doctors or psychologist false stories at work. Like Mum said, contacting your employers or colleagues. And also the big one online social media campaigns, it's like they've got a PR team working for them and I wouldn't doubt that if you were in a very, very, very high profile person where they probably do pay a PR company to do a smear campaign. I think we've seen that a fair bit recently in the news when people go to divorce. So it does happen, but for you it might just be happening on a smaller scale, but it still may be happening. So we're going to go through all of that, but Mum, can you just touch on the difference between what's defamation as opposed to just general criticism or venting? So difference? I think with defamation, you need to know that it is wrong when you do it. Do you know? And it damages the person's reputation when you do it. I think that's what I would say the difference is. Just venting can be defamation, even if you don't put the other person's name in it. You've got your name on it and everyone knows who you're talking about. So we have to be careful. And we're going to get into those areas when people slip up on that so that maybe if you're listening and it's not happening to you, but you want to make sure you're not doing it yourself. So I guess what's the main motivation you said really it's just to leave you isolated. Is that the main reason people do it? No, I think the other reason is to get a greater share of the property pool or to diminish a person's form a care of the children and thereby get a better chance of having their kids themselves. So they start to demolish a person's reputation, sometimes before it even gets into court. And so that I think sometimes I think it's gaslighting. If you've been in a gas-slip gas-liking relationship, maybe it continues. And how many of us haven't sat down and got, oh, did I do it? Is she right about that? Was that me? And so you started even to doubt yourself. So I think there's big picture stuff here. And sometimes the parenting is not the end game. The parenting is not the end game. The end game is paying less child support and getting more property settlement. So some people, there's a monetary reward at the end. Some people it's just spite. So revenge, yeah, revenge, control, try and a win custody, try and a win property. And I do think the isolation is a big picture because if the person there trying to go up against has a big support group or everyone is supporting them, it gives that person with the support more motivation and more ability to keep going in a custody case or to keep going in a property case. Where if we've seen people who have no friends, no family, no support, it's a lot harder for them to get the energy to keep going. So there is that strategy to be mindful of. And I think anyone who's listening to this, if they're exes running around defaming them and slandering their name and causing all sorts of trouble, ask yourself, what do you think the reason they're doing it? Are they just trying to get to pay less child support? Are they trying to get a bigger share of the property pool? Are they trying to get custody change? Are they trying to just isolate you? What's the reason for what they're doing? And that may help on how you emotionally deal with it. And we're going to talk about that soon. There is another kind of reason that people do this. And before we were learned more about coercive control, I used to call it the, if you don't love me anymore, then you're crazy. And so a lot of people do this slanted just to justify themselves and to show you as the person who left the marriage. There's nothing wrong with me, but look at them. And so some people, their self image, it's important to them that they will bring you down to support their self image. Okay. That's good to know. So have a little think on that guys. Let's talk about the different areas and let's start with family and friends. So examples of family and friends, mere campaigns. Have you got any classic ones, Mum? That may be happening to people today. Well, I wonder if you go to Kindi or school to drop the kids off and the other people aren't talking to you. And you may find your ex has got to them and spread lies about you. You might find yourself not invited to things that you would normally have gone to. People may just quietly disappear when you send messages to them. That's sort of quietly leaving people alone. And it's a symptom. That would be so horrific. You know, to have friends, thought you had friends and then all of a sudden they just don't respond or you find out they had a party and you weren't invited. It's a little bit high school, but I guess it is something I don't know how many high conflict or medical ever controlling relationships end up sharing friends. I think it's quite rare to share friends. Maybe in Amicable, they do, but not in the others. No, and the same goes with families, Laura. Usually the loyalty split along bloodlines. So your family support you, their family supports them. They know their family will support them. Sometimes then they make it an effort to get into your family and poison their minds against you. And weirdly, this is weird, but it's often by the partner of one of your actual siblings. Someone who's a step sister or an in-law, they'll start there and work their way in to kind of just and there's nothing more devastating than telling a parent about something and see them look at you go, really? That's soul destroying. Yeah. And do you think when it comes to family and I think this is maybe one like you said in the narcissist playbook for divorce, if you want to go listen to that episode, go listen to that. The first port of call is to your parents or to your family to say, she's crazy, she's lost the plot. Or he's mental before they're able to say we've decided to split because of these reasons. Or I just found out they've cheated on me. So they're trying to get in it before. So strategy, I guess. And one of the strategies that really people who commit family violence and particularly course control during a relationship, one of the things they do is move away from your support people move you to another country to another state to another town. they may even just cause trouble between you and your family members so that you can't really just go straight to them because they haven't spoken to them for so long or you've sided with your partner and they've had enough and it's just shocking. So my question for this because I know in the legal system there's ways to deal with it but is there any point raising with the court that their exes slanted them with their family or their exes isolated them from their friends? Is there any point of doing that or do you just have to let it slide off your back? No, no, you can raise that absolutely as examples of coercive control under the definition of family violence section four of the family law act and I would that's classic behavior isn't it? For someone who is trying to destroy you not separating respectfully they're not trying to resolve it they try to win. If anyone's listening and they're finding that keep evidence of that document it because that is potentially proof of family violence we've got an episode called is it family violence and we'd go through the definition so go and listen to that episode but yes keep evidence of that screenshots of that text messages anything that you can find to show that emotionally though mum I know you're not a psychologist but emotionally losing your family and friends not only are you losing your future that you thought you were going to have you were married you've settled you've got your kids and you're going to grow old together and you're going to retire and you have all these plans and then it's all fallen apart but then also the outside part of your world is falling apart you're losing your family you're losing friends emotionally that is like a kick in the guts when you're already down yeah how do people how do people deal with that? Well as a non-socologist but as a wise old lady I used to say to people and I think it held it won't last the minute their reason for attacking you with your family goes that they'll stop being the daughter nor the year or the son-in-law of the year once it no longer suits them your family are going to see what they're actually dealing with if you're inoccessively controlling relationship one of the things that happens is that you're told or begged by your ex usually in the state of remorse to not tell your family so you don't tell your family and then when you separate they get to your family member first and then you go to your family member and then they your family member says well you never said anything you look I never saw anything like that yeah what are you talking about? Yeah I didn't read something the other day that was quite good and I'm gonna share it with you guys today I'm not wise and I'm definitely not a psychologist but I did hear and this may help you if your ex and men are and they're a nasty type was able to trick you particularly if you're going through coercive control as well they were able to gaslight you if they were able to manipulate you and you fell for it don't be so hard on those who are also falling for it potentially they might still be your friends they're just under that spell that you are under and it may take a little while for them to figure it out I could be wrong they could just be not your greatest advocates they might have just been weak friends and that's fine but if you were in a really coercively controlling relationship just check and just go well look that person was able to convince me and gaslight me perhaps they're just as coercive and and being able to do it with your mates and your family so just think about that and maybe give them some space to find out on their own because they will if there are a horrible person and that's right left or you know why they've left you they'll figure it out okay so let's move on from that you did touch on school mum and I do think that is one of the first places if people have got kids school is one of the first places where divorce becomes a bit more of a reality because it's not like you put out a PR statement saying we're getting separated please respect our privacy or anything we're consciously uncoupling yes but you probably do need to tell no to find the school and we talk about that in schools and what they can do about your divorce or what they what powers they have because I think that's a question people ask a lot to go and listen to that episode if you're dealing with that but there is this tendency for schools to be a rumor mill and like you said people at the gate mums and the dads waiting at the gate for pick up little Johnny's best friend or just the teachers themselves I was a teacher so the word gets out is there anything people can do to protect themselves and their reputation from the school drama you have to tell the school pretty quickly because your children will probably be acting out at least they'll be aware of what's going on so you've got to protect the kids who've got to do that first and of course that turns through their mates like you say and other people I think hold your head high I think some of the people at the gate that you normally talk to then normally casual acquaintances more than not and when you hit school I stopped waiting at the gate after because the conversation was really gossipy and disrespectful and if it wasn't one person it was another and my sister famously said to a group I didn't say the majority did they said will you come for coffee and she said no thank you but that'll give you one more person to talk about and she rocked away those relationships probably aren't worth saving hold your head up high they will come round to it if you don't add fuel to it and you can't justify yourself if you say to them oh but I was in a coercively controlled relationship and they did this and they did that to me and they did that you yourself slandering and you can be sure that even it won't probably change their minds but it will probably find its way back to your ex so you can't you just can't I found it very edifying who were real friends and who were not real friends I think on social media and we're going to touch on that in a minute but some of the messages that get sand around stand in your truth speak your truth don't hide their shame I totally believe that's true but I think you've got to choose who to speak your truth to and who to not hide their shame you know because what like you say mum if they didn't want you to talk about it they shouldn't have done it but who you talk about it to it matters and you got to ask yourself why am I talking to these people about whatever's happened and if it's not to help your case if it's not to help keep you safe if it's not to find support in a good friend or good family then it's probably the wrong place to be doing it and feeding the rumor mill in a school is like a it's like setting a little fire and when it comes to the teachers mum when it comes to the teachers and the staff and the admin at school and again please go listen to that episode about school and divorce because we're not going to go into it too much but pick up drop-offs you might not have a planned time arrangement who's going to look after the kids we've separated what do we do today all of that's going to be up in the air to people need to be aware of when it's with the staff and the teachers and the principal and the admin when it comes to this kind of stuff well in our course we've got a letter to send to the school to that's notify of the separation so that it's on the file but remember if you say anything about your ex to any of these people you're speaking about your usually your child's other parent right and if you say something to one of those people at the gate or the teachers it may filter down through the kids so just be very careful and respectful and circumspect with what you tell the school just be very business like as far as the teachers go be child-focused I think in our draft letter we say look they may show some signs of what's been happening would you please let us know give them a little bit of extra space is there anything I can do to help feel free to contact me all of those sorts of things which as a teacher as Laura when you're in front of a classroom of kids and one of them has issues you want to know because that might bubble up during the day but there's no reason to try and recruit the teachers or recruit the school and just be careful because often the files of the school subpoena and turn up in court so if you've sent a kind of a venting let him have it letter that's going to be attached to an affidavit somewhere or in the subpoena document or yep and the judge will see it so you've got to be very right from the beginning be business like and child-focused no matter what you say in your heart so if you feel like your ex has been defaming you to the school they think you're a bad person or the all of a sudden they've stopped communicating with you they leave you out of information that is something to consider looking at the subpoena documents of the school maybe in there it's got proof where they've done it and then that can help you so if it is happening to you I mean that is a little bit of consolation I guess yeah it's when the come-up and comes up yes now with professionals this is another area that we want to talk about before we get into the legal system so what about doctors the GP any specialists or I don't know maybe your kids do gymnastics or they go to girls brigade or there's some sort of little activities they do so it comes to the professionals and other other people like that. What can you do if your egg starts just making stuff up or making you sound like a horrible person? Is there anything you can do? I think when it comes to things like gymnastics, girls, brigades, swimming, there's not much you can do. Okay? I wouldn't stop taking the kids if they're enjoying it and it's safe, just keep them doing their routine. They rarely document things when you say things anyway. So in my experience, for the girls, brigades and whatever, but when it comes to health, it's like education. I think health, they need to know what's going on. But in as the nila terms, as you can probably put it, possibly put it, unless there's been family violence in which case you may take the child in to show the doctor what's happened or yourself what's happened. It's important that the doctors to remember that the doctors aren't the kids' parents. So if you're in your early stages and you haven't got any orders saying where the kids are going to be living or who's got decision making, be aware that either parent can go to that doctor and give instructions about what's to happen and what's not to happen. Now I know the Family Law Act changed to allow our professional medical professional to act without checking with both parents, but the reality is that those professionals will seldom do that. They're covering themselves under their own rules. So whatever you say and do with the doctor, we'll get to your ex. I suspect it might be handy for you in some cases to go to a different doctor for yourself at least. Changing the kids' doctors, unless there's family violence, changing the children's doctor is a little bit of a red flag, I think, to the court and to the authorities. We want consistency. Someone who can say, "I've known these children since they were little," and he is what's going, "They're going through now," and I believe they say. Why would they try and slander you to the doctors or the psychologists? Like what motivation would an ex have to start telling porquies? Sometimes to establish themselves as the primary career of the children. That's a phrase that's gone out of fashion, but it's back in now because the court has a look at who's been primarily responsible for the kids' medical, education, dental, etc. It's a kin to that person who suddenly wants to pick the kids up from Kindie or who suddenly wants to drop them off at school, who hasn't done that through the whole marriage, but wants to do it now. So that's why they do it. That's why they do it. Okay, let's go into work. So this is another place where I think it's even mentioned actually now in the definition of family violence, where perhaps they contact your employer or they tell your work colleagues about, I don't know, something which is true or not true, but to try and maybe what's their motivation at work to get you fired? Yeah, and lose your support. The definition of family violence includes sabotaging work. Sometimes people stand outside the office all day long or come into the shop and don't leave or rubbish you to your boss or make you late because you're work, sorry. And that's sabotaging your employment, which is the economic abuse. So that is one of the reasons they'll do it. Sometimes it's just sheer jealousy because if you've got a good job and you're climbing up and you've got a future, they might want to cut that off. Years ago, I had a case where a woman was a nurse, but somehow this person found out everywhere she started, they rang up and made a false allegation against her and she had to stop working and move to somewhere else. So what can people do about that if their job's getting threatened because their exes trying to do something smear campaign against them? What can people do? Need to start doing your disclosure but have no idea where to start. Feeling overwhelmed about mediation coming up or just trying to deal with negotiating with a manipulative ex. Then you need to go to thedevourscourse.com.au to go to the free resources section where you can get a mediation checklist, a disclosure checklist, a word salad reader letter like a pro checklist and also a before you go checklist. Get ahead of the game and be organised and ready as this handy checklist along with the accompanying episodes of the podcast will be perfect for you. All you need to do is go to thedevourscourse.com.au and go to the free resource section and download the free checklists today. What can people do? Well, I think that most workplaces now are bound by much better laws than they used to have about giving a fair go and so forth. I suspect it might be handy for you to go to your employer or whoever it is, the achar and just let them know in a matter of fact way that your marriage has ended or your defective relationship has ended and that you don't really want to talk about it but just let you know and you may even say there, I guess if you believe there was family violence but I'd rather you put it in terms of how you feel. I felt controlled in that relationship. I felt scared and I meant. So that way no one can point a finger at you for slandering someone else. But I think most workplaces now have experienced that before. There's no way you're going to be the first person ever to go through a breakout and remember there's family violence, leave and so forth so that businesses are much better educated than they used to be. And because the definition of the family law rack says about this workplace sabotaging. sabotage, I guess you can also tell the family court about it. I guess it's not something that you just just go, oh well, I have to deal with it. It's something that the court can look at. What would the court do if they find that person was trying to sabotage and how does that affect anyone's case? Well, it makes your post-separation contributions, for instance, much harder than they otherwise would have been. And if your ex is very unlucky or performs very badly in the witness box, the court may draw that conclusion about the whole relationship that you were under this coercive control. So you can use the dezevidence of coercive control. And don't despair. I know you don't want to get on to the law just yet, but you can get injunctions in the family court about things that might be of assistance for you. Okay. Cool. All right. Now let's touch on social media and then we'll go into the legal system. All online social media, smear campaign drama. We actually were on Triple J, the hookup. I think it was good because they were talking about how people were just sharing and smearing their ex's names and there was no shame about it. Is that bad? Can people get in trouble for doing that? Well, if they're looking to have the children for more time or full time, then that shows a lack of self awareness in criticizing the children's other parent that way. Right? So that could backfire in a big way, particularly as long as you don't get in the trenches and do it too, you've got to hold your head up. I think screenshots are your best friends because they might delete them. Sometimes you'll find you and all your friends are blocked, but other people are able to see it. You will always know someone who isn't blocked who can screenshot them for you. I think that's a very good message to anyone. Just because you think you're somehow safe in your little bubble, there's so many ways people can find your account. There's so many ways people can see it's quite, it's near impossible. I think, and I've always told everybody I, like I've told my children as I've raised them, whatever you post on social media, whatever you post on the internet, private or unprivate, it will come back and it can resurface and you don't want that if there's something that you probably shouldn't have done. Yes, I think you're right, Delora, that there's no safety or security. Whatever you say or do is going to be public knowledge in the future. And it's been really quite helpful because where, as before, we had, she said in a phone conversation, he said this, she said that, or he or she did this, told someone else this. Now we've got text. Thank God for text messages nearly every bit of evidence I need is coming out in a text at some stage and you just pick out the ones that evidence the coercive control, for instance, and that's through the relationship as well. But if you've done anything in text, then that could be used against you. I mean, I don't suppose that you should be showing other people your ex's text to support your case because their eyes will glaze over. If they've already been persuaded by a very clever and manipulative person, they won't see the things that change their point of view unless they're really intellectually curious. So when it comes to going back to the online social media side of things, and I guess with texts, I do see in teenage breakups, etc. They screenshot the text and then they put them on their socials to say, "Look what they wrote to me." So when it comes to that, look, if you've got someone who's just going gung ho on you on Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat or whatever the current social media platform is, that would be so hurtful and so hard because I guess there's a need to try and want to correct the record. Go, "No, that's not true. That's a lie." And here's my proof. I've got proof that's a lie. Like there would be people who would be desperate to want to prove that. But what do you say to them? Should they [BLANK_AUDIO] Save it for the court and the court process and the outcome will be your evidence, I guess. If you end up with the kids full time, then they're going to be looking at the other person going, "Oh, maybe what they said wasn't true." And I'm worried I'll forget this, so I'm going to give you my cushion embroidery now. And this is the response you should perhaps give just because you write it down doesn't make it true. That's a good one. That's a good one. And that's a nice generic thing. I think when it comes to these, you really got to figure out, is this worth retaliating? Is this worth putting your effort into or should you be saving it for, like you said, mum, where it matters in the courts? So let's look at the legal system. Okay. There are multiple, multiple, multiple memes I've created for people in this situation where they open their affidavit and there X is affidavit and it is just full of BS. I'm putting it politely. And people constantly write to us telling us, "Well, what am I supposed to do this, like completely making up a whole new version of me and making me sound like the worst person in the universe?" And then we also hear people making false reports to child protection, less rarely, but we do hear from time to time people trying to do fake domestic violence orders. But I do tend to believe anybody who says it. I don't discount anybody's experiences at all, but we have heard of that happen from time to time. So what can people do, mum, in those situations where they're facing documents in a court that is filed that people can read that's slandering them? It's really hard because some of the things are so outrageous that it's improbable that someone would make something like that up and I can see that some lawyers say that. Or why would they say that? Well, because they're crazy, because they want to hurt me. But what I say is don't let them go straight to the keeper. If your truth is that this isn't true, you can say that. You can say, "As to this is simply not true." I don't know where they go, that idea. Sometimes in an interim affidavit, like for your little early hearings, you've only got a few pages. It's 10 I think, isn't it? Or 15. But anyway, you can say, "I've read the affidavit. There are so many things in there that are untrue, but because of the nature of an interim hearing, I'm just going to mention these ones and then mention it and say, "No, I've reserved the right to address the rest of them later on because if you don't answer them, then you can kind of be taken to be agreeing with them." I can tell you, one of the big tactics with that is to attack you on an area you think you're good at. That person's a terrible parent. For instance, they did this, they did that. You get so upset at this attack on your very core being, your fundamental version of yourself that you miss the stuff that they've got in there. It's kind of like a red herring. It's like, "How do we upset this person who's reading this material so they don't notice the other stuff?" Press button A. So you might find with your lawyer that you're wanting to address these things. You don't want this on a document in the court sitting there for anyone to read. What your lawyer will be doing is trying to move you towards the stuff that really matters because on an interim hearing, particularly, they said, "She said, he said, can't be tested. There's no cross examination." So only on the final hearing can all of those things be addressed. You need to stick to the law, but just reserve your right to respond to those things later. Mum's not your lawyer, so always check with your lawyer and add a respond to any of these affer-tabits. But mum, you make a valid point that this is one of the arenas of all the areas we've just discussed online at work with professionals at school, with family and friends. In the legal system, is your opportunity to address and rebut these things? But it is important, like he said, to not get distracted by it or let them use it as a way to control the narrative. We've got a great episode called, "Is Your Extelling Lies In The Court?" And what you can do about it, go and listen to that episode and it will help you in this space. Now, what happens though, if they take the affer-tabit or the judgment or a family report or something, email it to everybody that you've ever met in your life? Because sometimes I feel like because it's in an affer-tabit, it looks like an official document. Yes. And I wonder if people who've never been through the family court don't realise that, "Oh, no, that's just their side of the story and that's their side of the story." So it can be quite upsetting if you find out your ex's sent documents to other people to read that or your friends, etc. So is there anything you can do about it? Yes, that's absolutely an inditable offense. No, I'm not a criminal lawyer, but Section 1-1-4-Q of the Family Dorect says, "It's an inditable offense to communicate to the public and also to a section of the public and accountant proceedings that identify as the parties and others involved in the proceedings and the court takes it very seriously." Family reports also not to be distributed to anyone else except a person with a greater interest in the general public. You would let you now can let your mum read it or the family members, but it's a shocking thing to do and it becomes a form of systems abuse as well. They can get in trouble for doing that and something you can point out in the court. If they show the kids, that's an absolute no-no, but I've seen people who do that. Look at this. Look at your father's head. Look at your mother's head and the poor kids. That's not a criminal offense, but it should mean you get less time with the kids I would have thought. Okay. Now here's the practical steps that you can use to protect yourself and then we're going to talk about legal considerations. So as we always say and we always will keep a record of everything, emails, texts, social media posts. You have readers from family, you heard some rumor at school, just keep it all in a book. Don't dot it down. You may not need it or you may need it. You don't know what you really need evidence-wise until you do see their affidavit because you may think, oh, there's no way I'm ever going to have to prove that. And then you may read your ex's affidavit and they've just completely made something up and you do actually have proof of that. They often flip the narrative and it gives you the things that they did and take credit for the things you did for themselves. And we've got a great episode on that called "Aightways to Protect Yourself from Davos" that's "Denai Reverse Offender". But go and listen to that episode because we're talking through how to protect yourself from that Davos strategy. The other thing is set yourself up with some boundaries and communication protocols. We've got a great episode on 10 essential boundaries for going through divorce and a couple of those boundaries include setting them up with family and friends to just say, yes, you know, I don't want to talk about my divorce anymore, I'd rather talk about this. So just set some limits to when you are going to be expert. If they are slandering you to everybody, set some limits on how that can infiltrate into your everyday life. Well, I had that happen and all I said was look, I've got enough strength to get me and my children through this. I don't have enough strength to help you understand what happened. Yeah, that's right. And the other step you can do is when you inform those key people, the school, the employers, employees, family and friends, do it discreetly, do it calmly, not on TikTok or Facebook. No, and consider doing that as soon as possible. We do say that in the course to get out and make sure you let your school and your employer know if that's best for you as soon as possible. The other step, don't retaliate. Okay, so I'll void giving them material to use against you because there is this reactive abuse that can occur and we hear about it a lot and a lot of these really nasty types, they're doing this to get you to retaliate. And the judges will look at both sides and go, there is bad as each other. So you can't be doing anything like that. Look, another thing that happens is where the parties who are separating agree that they won't tell the kids just to agree that they'll tell the children when they're together and they may extract an agreement from you not to tell the kids and not to tell your family. And then the very first thing they do is go and talk to the kids and talk to the parent. So they can actually recruit the kids onto their side if they're dishonorable and you can't retaliate with that. You can't add your side because they can't handle it. So we've got a trash talking, is your extra talking you to the kids? Go and listen to that episode as well. That may be really help. And I guess the last practical step is go and seek legal advice if you think you need to about defamation and false allegations. Go and see a lawyer. Have a talk to them and say, look, this is what they're doing. Can I legally do anything about this at the moment? See what your avenues are. Because mum, there is this whole, I'm going to sue you for defamation. You see it in America affair bit. When is it worth pursuing and is there a difference between the family court going, well, this isn't true, why is slandering and an actual defamation lawsuit? Is there a difference? Well, I did the big difference. for family lawyers and for family law clients is you need to counter those arguments in your case to win your case, property or children, whatever. And if they're not telling the truth, then hopefully in the course of the litigation, it comes out that they've told lies. So every effort, David, is actually evidence sworn under oath or affirmed to the court. And if they've lied in any of those, the court can do two things. One of the things they can do is just make a finding against them about credit. We don't think we don't think you're credible in all these other things. The other thing they might do is make findings of abuse against them and give you the innocent party and uplift in your shares. But sometimes when they, or sorry, and they could give the make an injunction to stop them telling people these things. So the court has broad powers under section 114 to order your ex to stop doing this. Don't, you know, you must not do this, he shall not do this, she shall not do that. And the court can put a hold on it. But Goli, it had to be a very important thing for you to go and ask the court for that order to could probably tack it on to something else. And then finally, if they're giving evidence that written evidence, if it's proven to be wrong and they knew it was wrong, then they really leave themselves open to an allegation of perjury, which is more of a criminal offense. Deformation is about the hurt to your reputation. And I don't think I can think of anybody. No, I can't think of anyone I'd ever come across in family law who was able to get that against their ex, right? And I think one of the ways the court tries to contain it is by not letting you share the material with other people, not letting you show people your family report, all that sort of stuff. Really, your focus needs to be on protecting your credibility for court, get for the outcome of your property settlement, for the outcome of your child custody, agreement, and for the outcome of just your case overall and your credit, I guess, the court believing you. And your focus needs to be less on the public opinion, your family, your friends, the people at the school gate, you know, your work collards, which really is so hard to get your head around because it is your life. It's all the people you come into contact with that we're basically saying to you right now, forget all of that. You really just need to be focusing on your court. But when you actually drill down and have a look, of course, just for a short term, that's got to be your focus because the property settlement can affect your whole future and the custody issues, could affect your whole future and your children's whole future. So it kind of is you've got to leave that battle for another day and pick up the one that really matters and that's your credibility in court and fighting it to make sure that you get the best outcome for you and the children and the children. Yeah. And that's a hard pill to swallow because my ex-perhid did this or she did that and what if and I get it, I get it. There's so many stories I've heard that are just horrific and when I read them, I get emotionally caught up in them and I'm like, "Mom, I can't believe this person. This has happened." But unfortunately or fortunately, I'm not sure, but the court is just focusing on the real issues that matter to the court's decision on your money and your kid. Yeah. And if you keep a dignified silence in the face of other things that are going on in the periphery with family, friends, teachers, whatever, just keep it to the facts, keep it very neutral. Then hopefully by the time you are able to discuss it with them, they've already worked out the truth. I mean, I didn't ever have to explain anything to my friends. They worked it out eventually and by then I could discuss. So I think that's a way to do it. Yeah. And I think to be able to mentally turn off all the drama that's going on at the school gate and at all these other places in your life and to focus on court, I do think seeing a psychologist, if it's family violence, speaking to the domestic violence services, 1-800 respect or just really close friend, a fierce friend to help just keep you focused and get you through it. Because like Mum, you've said, you've only got enough energy to get yourself through it. You don't have enough energy to drag all these other people. If they know you, if they actually properly know you, they're going to know this stuff as BS or they're eventually going to realise it's BS and come out the other side like you did. If you were being controlled by your ex, there's a large chance that they're being controlled by your ex as well. That's right. Yeah. That's right. It's always a red flag when a client says to me, "Oh, you don't know my ex, they're really clever." And that clever doesn't always equate with Honourable, but you guys keep Honourable, keep dignified and you will get through it. And Mum, just one more time for those, what are we embroidering on a cushion? You've already said it. We're embroidering. Just because they write it down or just because you write it down doesn't make it true. Big hugs, big hugs to anybody who's listening to this, who's dealing with it. Every second day someone comes out of the work saying, "Oh, your ex told me, 'Bababla, the reason you broke up is blah blah blah.' Or, 'Your ex told me that you're doing XYZ with the children and it's horrible or whatever it is. I feel for you, but time to put your blinkers on, focus on getting yourself through court, getting the best outcome from you and your kids and you will get through it. It will stop eventually." Yes, it will. And then you can choose who you want to keep as friends after that. Yes, it's a good sifting situation. It's a good, it's fun. When people go through Facebook, I don't do it, but they do have Facebook perch or they delete their people they haven't spoken through for years or whatever it is for people. It is a really good way of sifting through the real friends. It's decluttering, decluttering. Your mind. Yes. And then you'll be left with staunch friends. You definitely will. All right, big hugs to everybody and thank you Mum for sharing all your wisdom today. No worries, darling. Bye Laura. Bye everyone. 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