DISTURBING Proof that Aliens are Demons

Imagine being eight years old, you step into your new bedroom and you immediately smell sulfur. It's a vile smell and you look underneath your bed and you find a strange looking little girl hiding in the corner. Well, to the researcher of the demonic Nathaniel Gillis, that was just the beginning. Soon came the footsteps outside of his door, stopping, right before it entered, and the disembodied voices and a shadowy presence that followed him even beyond his home. But decades of research has led Nathaniel to an even more terrifying possibility. Demons, ghosts, shadow people, and even certain extraterrestrials may not be a separate phenomena at all, but just different mass, worn by the same deceptive intelligence. From a child allegedly walking backwards up a hospital wall to ancient accounts of Ghostborn illnesses, this conversation is asking one question. When something appears to us, are we seeing it as it is or only what it wants us to see? If you were interested in the demonic and alien encounters and shadow people, and of course deceptive intelligence that may just connect them all, will you are in the right place. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. Nathaniel Gillis, thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me on, buddy. I am so excited that you're here and also a little apprehensive, because you are a phenomenologist. Some have described you on the internet as a demonologist. Some of you have been described as a dermatologist. Unfortunately, yeah. Two of those, I think, are more accurate. Absolutely. But I don't know about demonologists. But, uh, no, I am fascinated by this topic. I am also a little nervous for the following reasons. I was raised very Catholic. And I still describe to the Catholic faith on a personal basis because I like it. It makes me feel good. I like to pray the rosary. I like the elements of Catholicism as I've been brought up in them. And it is the way that I interface with my spirituality. As a result, I also have a deep-seated fear of demons and of the demonic and of all things pertaining to spiritual warfare. They make me very nervous. And I grew up my entire life always being very scared of the occult. My mom would make references like don't ever do a Ouija board, don't ever do bloody Mary in the mirror, don't mess with the stuff because it opens a portal. And that's kind of just how I live my whole life. Now, to this day, I haven't really experienced anything truly inexplicable, except for those two instances I told you, which sounds like I'm a complete paradox. I'm like, nothing ever happened except twice. But I did an episode with my friend Ethan where the light started to flicker in the studio. I've talked about it on the show. People can go look it up. I also did an episode with my friend Ralph Sarchi, who is a demon artist and also performed and was, uh, I guess present for exorcisms where while he was speaking, a flash of light exploded right behind him. And no one caught it except afterwards on camera. So that's kind of my frame of reference coming into this. So my question to you, I guess before we even really go down this journey, what is a demon in your worldview? My worldview. So my worldview would consider a demon to be a non-clean spirit. And this kind of evolves into a deeper level of understanding where it's more than demons, but I'll start out with this. My tradition that I grew up in was essentially fallen angels made at with human women and created hybrid offspring. That biological avatar dies. The consciousness that existed within it. Continues existing. And that would be called an unclean spirit. This is a reference to the book of Enoch. Absolutely. Yeah, Genesis 6. Now what's interesting about that worldview is that it's not limited to just an unclean spirit or what's called corpse pollution, which we can get in that too later on. But the ancient mind, especially the ancient Mediterranean mind, also included like versions of cryptids as demons and demonic. And it was kind of lumped into this one group of species or one species of being. And that was demons, but to answer your question specifically, that would be an unclean spirit. Now, what is that though? It would be some kind of mutated consciousness. And again, in the Eastern Mediterranean mind, there were people that died and they would kind of evolve. And others would die and they would devolve. And so what you essentially have, whether we wanted to be or not, you have this idea that some demons are mutated ghosts. That's where you get the term Refaim, which it has a double meaning. It means a phantom, a ghost, or a giant. And that's where you have kind of the merging of the avatar with the consciousness. The avatar is gone. Consciousness still exists in a post-biological state. That is what they would consider to be a demon. Now, early on in my research, I kind of, I really delved into that heavily. And I looked at various scholarship scholars. And I just kind of, I understood that. I believed it to a degree. But I think it's an oversimplification of it. It's just consciousness where it's mutated. And once I got into possession cases, not just within the Vatican, even within Christendom and even Judaism, I kind of expanded my concept of the quote unquote demonic outside of just the religious framework I inherited in my youth. And that's why I encourage people, if they ever want to get to the subject matter, look beyond that religious text, or at least that cultural prism go into religious scholarship and see what their demonology has to say. So that's why I started out with the demon. And then I went into Judaism and the Shudim. And then I went into Islam with the gen. And then I realized that it's the valet and mechanism or belief, right, where that it's possible we're talking about the same entities. We're just using different terminologies for them. And so beyond all of the names that we have given them, there seems to be underlying pathologies that unite them throughout all of the world. And so above and beyond just the terms, there are behavioral footprints in the snow that lead me to believe that it doesn't matter what we call them. These are just placeholders. Right, for the unknown. Right. As Josh Kutcher would say, placeholder is. And so my point being is that I'm beyond terminology. And I know that's frustrating for many people, because there's a lot of people that follow me or that used to and say, a thing you'll just call in demons, demons, demons. And what I'm realizing is that more often than not, that's a conversation in there. Like it's designed just to shut you up. Just say it's A, B, and C. And that's all we need to know. And that's never been true. I mean, matter of fact, if somebody wants to send me their demons, I get it. But I would have to say, okay, within what religious context? Right. And what kind, what interpretation? Because people approach this subject as if all of our ancestors agreed on what a demon was. Or it's ontology. And so that's why I encourage people to get into the epistemology of how do we know what we know? And can we believe it? Can we trust it? And that was kind of my origin story. And that's my at least one of my earliest ideas of what a demon is. Hey, real quick. Most people who watch this channel aren't subscribed. And when you subscribe, you help the channel grow and you stay in the loop with every new drop. Religion camp, history, camp and camp gagnon. Now let's get back to it. Now, you also had personal experiences with this phenomenon early on. Can you take me down that road? Yeah. So I was eight years old. My parents were touring a house that they were going to purchase. And they ended up purchasing it. And my dad took me into my room. This is going to be yours. Figure out where you're going to put your playstation, your bed, you know, have your way. So I said, okay, I could still remember me crossing over the threshold. As soon as I walked into the room itself, there were two things that were alarming. Number one, I felt like I was being watched. I don't know if you've ever felt that before. I'm sure your viewers have where you know, you can't see anything. You can't see anybody. But you feel like you are being watched and not just watched. That's kind of another oversimplification like something is peering into your soul. It's seeing through you. And I remember that experiencing it looking around like this is really funky. This doesn't feel right. Even at eight years old. Eight years old. Yeah. This is very strange. In addition to that, there was a stench in the room and a small like sulfur. And there was nothing in it. There was nothing rotting in the room itself. It was very staged. They had a bed in the corner, but other than that, it was perfect. It was clean. But that was another thing that I experienced. No. Did anyone notice the smell? No. So you're in there with your dad, maybe a real estate agent, and you're smelling this and you're looking them. Did you make notice of it? Did you say anything? Yeah. It smells in here. What is this? I don't want to live in here. And they said, they didn't notice it at all. Now, it's crazy because this is how the phenomenon is. This is how this intelligence operates where you'll experience something. You'll see something. You'll hear something. No one else will. It's like tailored for you specifically. And it's just something you have to live with, unfortunately. But is that that point? And the smell you smell. What does it smell like? sulfur or something that's rotting. It's brought in eggs, essentially. And like I I said I looked around, there was no reason for me to smell that. I just didn't make any sense. Now, I felt compelled, and I don't understand why, but I got on my hands and knees, and I looked underneath the bed. And when I looked underneath the bed, there was a little girl, black hair, white dress, around maybe six or seven years old, my age at the time, around my age at the time. And when I looked at her, she moved her body all the way up to the wall. And I'm looking at her, and I'm just like, okay, pull the blanket down, backed up, just walked out of the room, got in the car with my parents, asked them, or I'm even asking, I think I said something like, you know, I hope that little girl gets out of there, because she's going to get in trouble if that rillarder finds out that she's snuck in there when they're trying to show this house. Now originally, I believe that she belonged to the neighborhood. Well, I moved into the neighborhood. I got to know Casey and Brooke and all of them in Lisa, and I knew all the neighborhood kids. She didn't belong in the neighborhood at all. In fact, the person that was selling the house, it was a son, his parents had both died. And so it was like in a state cell, you know, here you go. She didn't belong in the family, much less than neighborhood. And that's when I kind of thought I was going crazy to be very honest with you, you know, I'm thinking as a kid, I'm losing it, guys. First of all, I smelled something nobody else did, you know, I felt something nobody else felt and then I see someone and nobody else saw. And it was formative, but once we actually moved into the house, it got dark. And what I mean by that is, I remember like maybe two months into it in the pregnant silence of the night, I could hear the footfall of anity, an entity, and it just sounded like somebody with work boots on, displacing its weight in our living room. We had wooden floors. Beautiful wooden floors, it would just be creeping all over. And it would always, it would intensify, it would get louder and louder until it got all the way in front of my door. And then it would just completely dissipate. And then instead of hearing something, I would feel it, cross into my room. That was a traumatic time of my life, I had a lot of, I've had to go to therapy for that as an adult and that's something I've never talked about on shows, but yeah, because like whenever I get too deep in the research, that same emotional feeling of terror or loneliness will haunt me and I'll have to disconnect from everybody. I've, you know, I've, I've not answered phone calls, researchers and experiences, you know, the thing that you ignore me, I'm not ignoring you, I've, I've got to, I've got to go. So now when you spoke to a therapist about this, I'm presuming this is like a pretty standard issue, college educated regular therapist, what do they make of this experience when you tell them? My doctor was amazing. He is a big Steiner fan, he was actually research of the paranormal, but even then he was like, yeah, I would have probably diagnosed you with severe depression, I figured the term you use, but yeah, severe depression, I was like, well, okay, well, I know some people depression. Right. They're very rarely described, well, you're describing. Oh, yeah, yeah. I can't believe it. Yeah, I don't know. I, um, it's crazy enough to is I was going to a church at the time and what was also deeply problematic was experiencing the love and light aspect right of the paranormal supernatural church, because you went to a charismatic church, you could say pretty costly. Yeah, yeah. They're very strict. So, um, the women would not cut their hair, they couldn't wear pants, no television, you know, although I went to my grandma's house all the time. They do wear skirts. Yeah, they wear skirts. When you say they can't wear pants, yeah, some people are like, wait, hold on, hold on a minute, wait, what's going on here? What kind of church is this? We've got a church, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, they had to wear skirts and, um, at one point, and this is wild, um, the pastor's wife would take the women of the church into the bookstore and measure it, measure it. And if you were like all half an inch, showing an ankle, yeah, wow, there you're, yeah, you were that closer to hell. So, you tell your parents about these experiences and your dad's a pastor. Mm. Well, he isn't. Yeah. At the time. Yeah, he was a minister. Yeah. Absolutely. So, if I told my parents about this kind of experience, they would immediately be like, we need to get the house blessed, we need to get you some type of, uh, we need some type of religious institution, namely the Catholic church to come in and do something to remediate this when you told them what did they say? My dad told me that he, there's a threshold covenant and, and I love my dad, by the way, he's the best man I've ever known. So I'm not trying to shade him in a different way in a strange way, but he was like, you know, the thing with anything does come in here, I'll know about it. And I was like, well, you know about it now because I'm telling you, there's something wrong here in this house. And it got to maybe a year into the house when he started noticing things and was so strange about this. And this has been an inquiry going on in parapsychology now for God must be a hundred years is the, is the entity attached to a person or is it attached to a geographical location or both? If you leave the house, will it follow you or if the house, you know, that kind of thing? So my dad would experience it, but it would always be when he went downstairs to the basement and as in a specific area of the basement and that area was directly underneath my room. Very, very strange. So the craziest part about my experience in that house was not the girl, the little girl, it wasn't the displacing of the weight of the entity. It was just waking up. If I could get sleep, I would wake up suddenly and I would hear disembodied voices. Now people go, say, I'm crazy, that's fine. I get it. But disembodied voices, brother, above my head and they're talking to each other. It's like a conversation, it's almost like somebody that's underneath water or something under water and they're talking and you can hear something, you can hear words, you can't, you don't understand what they're saying. There's no articulation. That was what was going on with me and I would hear it sometimes and I would just be like, okay, that's really strange. And then I would go into a looping nightmare now. Can I tell the story? Please. All right. Because I know we've talked about, I don't want to, you know, and this nightmare was not just a nightmare. I asked the question all the time, how do you know if it's not just a dream, you know, it might just be a dream. How do you know it's real? Well, I had no ability to get myself out of this. I mean, I would be induced to do this nightmare. It was a looping nightmare where I'm walking into a shelter at a park where people have birthday parties, family or unions and there's a picnic table. There are two young men, I say young, I'm almost 49, unfortunately, so they're probably maybe 25. Anyways, they're on the, the picnic table one, they're, both of them have their backs turned towards me. One has a needle in his arm. The other one is just looking around. Well, the one on the left turns around makes eye contact with me and smiles. Pulls out a black 357 magnum, puts it in his mouth, pulls the trigger. When that happens, I would wake up and there would be this presence in the room and the only way I can explain this was the room was saturated with consciousness. A life form was in there with me in whatever that life form was. It's what induced me into that looping nightmare. So there were times where I would wake up after the nightmare and I would see this cloud of darkness hovering in the corner of the room. And again, I have no frame of reference for this. When I mean, I was sheltered, I mean, they wouldn't even let me watch rush hour. Right? You know, it was a big rush hour fan. Yeah. It's unfortunate. It's also not a witchcraft movie. It was just anything. Interracial crime fighting. I know, right? Chris Tucker, Jackiejack. It doesn't love Jackiejack. Come on. Yeah. So, but yeah, I had no frame of reference for that. I knew it. Even the guy across the street, he smoked marijuana and I didn't know what that was either. I just thought I was a weird leaf, you know, I mean, I, it was weird. So to see intense visions of self-harm would be strange at such a young age. Yes. Yes. That in addition to the needle. I didn't even know what insulin was until I began to take care of my late aunt who had sugar diabetes. Point being, whatever that life form was, it was changing its interface. It wasn't just a little girl. Well, I guess we'll get to that. Because when I started looking at this mentally and intellectually, I got to about the age of like 12 years old. I'm still coexisting with this thing and I'm asking myself, okay, I'm kind of tracking the trajectory of manifestations. It was a little girl. Here's a shadow figure there, right? And then it was disembodied voices over there. Next thing you know, it's this cloud in the corner. And then why not? I'm playing Tony Hawk Prase, Pro Skater 2, hauling the right love, I mean 90s kid. So killing that game and Ronnie Mullins and I turn from the screen to the window and my eyes are adjusting to the darkness when I see this featureless shadow figure just staring at me. It's head turns like that. I freak out. So I've got this kind of archive. of manifestations that I've experienced and it would follow me. Another game, a video game reference at one of my best friends in the world, Jacob Ward, we like to play Goldnye and so we would go over his house for a sleep over playing Goldnye and whatever this thing was would follow me there. Same thing would be walking up the steps and we're like nine years old, right? Was Jacob ever aware of this? Oh no. Did he ever see it? No. I never told him about it. I almost stayed over there one night and I didn't want him to think I was weird or anything. And that's if he did experience it. That's bad enough. But if he didn't experience it, night did, he's going to think I'm crazy and I have to go home and be like, "Okay, that's not fun." Point being is I had to go through the plethora manifestations. Finally, I asked myself if I was actually dealing with different entities, which was unlikely. Hmm. Right. I mean, it's a shadow figure here. It's a disembodied voice here. It's a dark cloud over here. It's a little girl. And then once I realized that that thing was actually following me and it wasn't just located in my home, the four walls of my abode, it was on me. That was an uncomfortable mental conversation. My point is I kind of looked at all the manifestations and I came to the conclusion just my personal perspective that that was a singular intelligence. Those were just manifestations of one entity that was wearing various interfaces tailored according to my worldview, according to my experience, even my age, and that I was not dealing with separate phenomena, I was dealing with phenomenon. It's a way to life form. How does this dissipate in your early childhood? How it stopped was there were two things going on. Number one, the amount of terror and fear it was projecting was measured. I clocked it. There were nights where I would feel nothing at all. It was great. You know, I have school the next morning. Thank God, I can get some sleep. And then out of nowhere, thoughts would come that feeling of vulnerability would make you made me feel that big. Like I'm just disappearing into darkness. And I determined after not just analyzing the various manifestations and interfaces it used against me, I determined number one, we're going to have to coexist. You're not leaving me alone, I want you to, but you're not leaving me alone. And the sad part is it's like, okay, if I take a shower, it's there. If I go to bed, it's there. If I go downstairs to play drums, because I was a big drummer back in the day, not like, you know, famous for anything, but I love drums. And so it was there. I couldn't get rid of it. So finally, I determined, like, okay, if we're going to coexist, I'm going to learn. I'm just going to observe, I'm going to monitor. And so at a certain time, about maybe 12 or 13, I started monitoring my faults and my emotions. And that's when I realized number one, why should I fear you? I don't understand you, but that doesn't mean I should fear you. Where is this fear coming from? Do I fear you because I don't understand you? Do I fear you because your horns and hooves? Then I determined, I fear you because you wanted me to, that the terror I was feeling was not organic. Like I said, I had no frame of reference. I didn't even know what Casper was. Why should I be afraid? That was a motion conjured by this entity and projected onto me. And this is why when I'm into people, it's very rare when they do investigations. I'll admit to them sometimes that there are certain entities that want you to fear them. It's not just a game. It's not just the quote unquote trickster archetype. But some of these beings will fabricate fear, project it onto you, and then see if you agree with it. Do you believe you should fear me? And then the more you believed in that, the more powerful it became, the more authority it has. I know I'm using these kind of religious adjacent terms here, but that's really what it was for me. So I realized that it's okay to feel the fear. It's not okay to be afraid. Those are two different things. And so I would essentially build up a wall emotionally to where when I would feel the fear, I would stop it before it entered here before I agreed with it. So it was almost a coping mechanism. I'm not saying it worked every time. I'm saying that it at least allowed me to coexist long enough to where I was able to reestablish my relationships with my family. But getting back to the phenomenology, I asked myself, again, are these separate entities or are they separate? And I didn't have the terminology then, right? I somewhat have it now. I don't know everything, obviously. And I have more questions than answers, but to me that these were interfaces. But this entity was doing was going through the cultural costumes of my mind, using that and pulling it over itself, and then making me think that these are separate entities when really they were almost like characteristics or traits of one life form. And that was the springboard, the origin story that got me into the field. And that's what really got me hyper focused. I mean, everybody has their own interests, right? You know that, brother. All these researchers have their different niches. I have always been interested in hyper focused on what I call interface events, when the being manifests to you, what's actually going on. Why? Because that's what I experienced more than anything else. Fellas, this episode is sponsored by Blue Choo. Look, life is about preparation. You got to prepare for a camping trip, for your job, for a podcast, and you got to prepare for all of the things happening in your life. And sometimes when the vibe is right, everyone's being an adult, you're on the same page. Sometimes people forget to prepare for the bedroom, and that's why you need Blue Choo Gold. Blue Choo Gold is going to take you to the next level in the bedroom. 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Thanks so much, Blue Choo. Let's get back to the show. Now, I've spoken to many people on the show that describe UFO alien encounters, and some of which are somewhat banal, where they say, right, I'm sitting on my porch and I see this light in the sky and it moves in a strange way, then it goes away. There's a remarkably intense where they're fully abducted, where they're in their room and this being sort of kind of comes through the wall and then manipulates the surroundings and talks to them and says that they'll be there when they die and things like this that are like very heavy. And they go, it's aliens. Right. Now, to me, I'm like, I wonder if that is just them coming up with a label in a term to describe this type of phenomenon and that aliens, perhaps, is a label that we're putting on it in the way Jacques the label will talk about it. And you have a great quote in one other podcast you did where you said that people are mythologizing the mask. What on a person? That this sort of unified consciousness is in some way interfacing with people in different masks in different forms throughout generations, to different people throughout generations and they give them different labels and different names, but it's all kind of this underlying same phenomenon. And the current one that most people are dealing with or that is very popular is aliens. Would you say that many alien abduction stories could be referencing the same sort of phenomenon? Again, not to use the D word, not to say it's demonic, but that perhaps there is a, in certain cases, some type of insidious or sinister kind of underbelly. There is a sinister underbelly to it and there has been a carefully curated narrative in the field to stop these accounts from being heard. And I realize that's a controversial position to take and I know that and so people are going to likely say Nathaniel Gillis is a doomer. I'm not. I just, I've talked to many abductees, I've worked with him. I know them and that behind closed doors and skiffs and in the inside of India is that these stories are being heard, they are being told. And the problem is, and we talked about this earlier, my friend, where ephology is primarily based on instrumentation. We have radar, we have sonar, we have video evidence, we have photographic evidence, we captured them, we scientifically measured them. The issue is that there is no instrumentation to measure their intentions with us. And as much as ephology consists of something in the sky, we're realizing now, and we have for the longest time, those of us who did the work, that there is a sting in its tail, it's not limited to what's in the sky, it's actually something's actually coming home with you. And whatever that is, is virtually antithetical to what you thought you were experiencing. So where people would say that's an extra terrestrial flying and craft, okay, but what actually hijacked you, is people say, "Hitchhiker, what comes home with you?" Our apparitions, disembodied voices, shadow figures, poltergeist activity, and so people will simply say, "Okay, but that's the hitchhiker effect." Now, and I get that, and we'll get to clone Keller's work here shortly, but again, I think that model is also incomplete. And this is why I'm such a fan of Dr. Collitt Turner's work because she was one of the few who was willing to shoot straight with us. No matter how controversial it was, or while I didn't get a conference or a contract, she was willing to put the data out there and say, "Look, here's what we have. This is what we know is what we don't." And one of the things she talks about was this idea that there really isn't, like there is the hitchhiker effect, but it's not what we think it is. In other words, a lot of her abductees were actually being moderately haunted before they were abducted by quote unquote aliens. So who's hijacking, who here? So essentially, we're in before you would have something in the sky, extraterrestrial, and then ghosts go home with you. Now, it's literally no ghosts are with you in the house, and then you're abducted by extraterrestrials. So what ends up happening is, it's kind of, again, it's James Lecatsky's work, where you're like, well, maybe these categories don't exist. Maybe we are being told they exist by the phenomenon. Now, the idea here, though, is that when these entities manifest to us, they will use interfaces. They will appear as divine figures, religious figures, deceased loved ones, apparitions of the dead. They'll appear as Mother Mary, they'll appear as a Swedish Presbyterian version of Jesus, right? Not the first century Jewish Messiah. Something different that fits into the cultural architecture of the time. That is an interface. And what my colleagues, Steve Marin, I've been doing now are we're looking for what I call scenes in the dream. What do I mean by that? When we are interfacing with entities, these beings have the ability to hijack consciousness, to induce people into dreamlike states, into theta brain wave activity, to where you are being induced in this kind of stupor, and it's very suggestive. And next thing you know, and I had one instance, it's crazy. But this woman had an entity that was a shadow figure to the side of her. But then when it moved in direct line of her eyesight, it was able to fix its form, and now it looked like her husband. And I knew that was a behavioral pattern, a data point in the research. And I've been kind of hitting that home in many of my interviews. And then out of nowhere, Eric Davis does a lecture at Contact in the Desert. And he says, with respect to Jen, which is another category, unfortunately, with respect to Jen, that they will not have form until you observe them. And then once you lock eyes with them, it will fix their form. What are we doing? We have to observe them for them to have that particular form. So there is this connection of consciousness. It's almost like the observer effect in us interacting with them and actually co-creating the manifestation, the interface, the mask that they pull over themselves. It's the little girl underneath the bed. And how are they accessing these masks from our consciousness? I don't know. Paul St. Clair and I were talking about this about a year ago when I was on a show where we don't know if it's technology or if it's a personal trait. Like it's just something that they're organically blessed with, it's something they have within them. But they're able to get it from your brain? Yes. To pick out of your consciousness. They'll go through all of the inner-- No, this gets back into John Kiel's work where he suggested that these beings will go through different masks and manifestations without changes. You can go through Alexander the Great when in his diary he's talking about seeing a flying shield. Then you go to Kenneth Arnold and it's a flying disc. Right, what are we dealing with? We're dealing with placeholders. Now-- Alexander the Great talks about a flying shield. Yeah, flying shield. Could you pull that up? That is wild. I've never heard that before. That is remarkable. It's crazy. Wow. So as far as I guess these grays being masks, is there a UFO abduction story that you could reference that you feel like would be maybe something that you feel it would be more in line with your model here, rather than the classic kind of life? Yes. Yeah, we got probed and aliens and then came back up. Yeah, dealing with the interface, it's fascinating. Dr. Collector in her book, Into the Friends, she's dealing with multiple abductees, one of which was Pat and her sister Rose. Both of them were abducted at the same time, but they had different descriptions of the entities that abducted them. Absolutely fascinating. Not just different entities, different shapes. Now, they were grays, but they were wider, somewhere skinnier, I think pets that they were wider and then Rose said they were skinnier. One of them actually saw the entities with Chinese rice hats on. Hmm, yeah. Why would a gravy wear in a Chinese rice hat? No, no, no. So what we're looking at though, at least within my model, we're looking at seams in the dream where the interfaces that these beings will often manifest, they don't get it right all the time. There are glitches, and with respect to that earlier case of the woman, the entity assaulted her, induced her to a dreamlike state, assaulted her. And she said, I felt like I was almost duper. And she said, after everything was set and done, it moved to the left again in Eric Davis' concept of mine as well. Where you're not walking onto it, therefore it's not really holding its form. And out of nowhere, it turns into the shadow figure again. And she's realizing, first of all, the facial features are not holding anymore. You are not my husband at the same time. All the memories that she had prior to the stupor flood her mind again as she realized. Of course, I'm a husband because my husband's been here the whole time. She didn't remember it. So what we're dealing with is the complete hijacking of consciousness to the point where people are being victimized. And here's where it gets dangerous, victimized by world views. In your point of mythologizing the mask, if in fact we are dealing with a singular life form, a singular species, perhaps, that are manifesting as various entities, it's the ghost, it's the alien, it's the demon, it's the all that. It's possible that we have mythologized those masks in so much as we are creating different fields of research to research and investigate that interface. Not realizing that we're not really studying the entity. We're studying just a mask at war when it was interfacing with us, when it was around us. And I'll give you an example. It's a lot like orbology. So it's another one of those orbology, the strange. Where people see orbs in homes and they're like, okay, it's fascinating and some people suggest that they're all just flecks of dust. I don't believe that. I've seen an orb. So you're looking at a corpuscular ball of light, like that, okay? And sometimes they're as big as that. And Dr. Barry Taf's case, Doris Bithur, St. Peter Hunting Jacky, Hernandez, Wood Orbock's case studies is another parapsychologist. These balls of light have the ability to project apparitions. So a physiological construct, in other words, you would see it as an orb and then out of the orb, you would see like an apparition of something that's animated and it would be human-like. You would just do it to be animated walk around stuff. Well, what happened was, early on, is that we did not know that the orbs could do that. So it took people like Lloyd Orbock, where he had one case where they kept seeing a lady in white and then they realized that there was on camera, there was an orb. So you'd have the apparition that's witnessed with your eyesight, the naked eye, then you'd have an orb following it. And so I took that early on in my research. I thought that's pretty wild. Why are they both there at the same time? And then I got a hold of Dr. Barry Taff's case with Doris Bithor and Checker and Andes where they had one orb. that projected, he, they quartered, it was a lime green orb in the room, it's popping off this EMF breeding, and then out of nowhere, here is a half of a man in apparition, and he's just looking around at them. And so that collectively, that moved perpsychology into the area of believing that these, some of these, at least some of these apparitions are being projected by orbs. The problem with that is if we didn't know that first of all, because of that, we wouldn't create it in entire mythologies surrounding the apparition, not realizing that many of them were projections of balls, of light, that is an example of mythologizing the mask. So a woman in white appears to a person, but on the camera, it is an orb, because the camera doesn't have consciousness. It doesn't believe, it can't, doesn't mean that the camera cannot be manipulated. I know Trey Hudson, this is wild too, Trey Hudson, who has what's called the metal project. He and his team went out at an undisclosed location, they're researching, they're investigating the property, and they have this, this reading, this camera that's that's monitoring, what is it called now? It's monitoring or reading, it's a heat sensing camera, and the thermal image, that's what it was. And they're looking at this researcher, this investigator, they've got him on the radio, brother. Hello, you there? Yeah, I'm here. Okay, why? Because we're seeing you with our eyes, and you look like you, but I'm thermal imaging you're an orb. Hmm, below is my mind. So now what that means, though, again, is that there is, there's the entity, there's the substrate, and then there's the interface. And I'm not sure that we've only seen the interface and never truly seen the entities. I say that because there are so many cases throughout history where the beam will manifest, it will appear to be an entirely different species, and then you get close to it, it's not, it will change its shape. And this is something that I've been talking about, I said, like, too, where it will hide its function behind form. Not just that, but it's origin, James is one of Dr. Collectorner's abductees. He was being accosted by a Pleiadian, how, how did he know she was pleiadian? Because she appeared to be a Pleiadian. When you say Pleiadian, you mean, is it an extraterrestrial, yeah, from Pleiadies? But perhaps, or something like that? No, no, a woman, a woman. And, but he's like, she's a, I don't want to say a salt it, but they were, like, kissing or something, and she appeared to be Pleiadian until he got close to her, and then he realized, like, again, these are seems in the dream, glitches in the matrix, where the interface could not hold its form. It's hiding its form, it's what it's trying to convince you, at least in this particular case, that it's from another planet. It was, and it was something completely different. So, there are cases like that, but my colleague, Steve Marenai, what we're trying to do is, we're looking for seams in the dream, instances where the phenomenon glitches in and out, long enough for these experiencers to, to regain free will in their own autonomy to push back. Now, the reason we're doing that, the reason this has germinated the conversation is because it's not just entities that are weaponizing our perception of them. UFOs are too. You go to Gary Nolan's case, Dr. Gary Nolan's case. He had a case study in France, where a mother and her children in her car, they see a craft in the sky, mother photographs it, the children describe what they see, what they saw with the naked eye was completely different than what was captured on camera. What was captured on camera? It's a star-like object, a star, not like a star, but like a metallic star-shaped object. What do they see? Something completely different. They didn't give a description, but it was completely different than that, they said. So, I guess, lightly answers the next question that I'm always curious about when it comes with this topic or two UFOs or UAPs where I say, "Look, we're living in Borland, a surveillance state." Everyone's got a phone in their pocket, we got a flock of cameras everywhere. There's home security systems. You can pick up for $50, like why haven't we just captured some type of definitive proof of this? I guess to your point, like if these things can kind of mask and manifest differently based on consciousness, then perhaps they appear differently on camera. So, then I'm curious, is there any video footage that you've seen that you feel like is compelling in this regard? Oh, I got to be very transparent, I've looked at the evidence that they've released regarding disclosure, and a lot of it has either been debunked or it's old. What about personal cases of people describing hauntings or poltergast activity? Yeah. Yes, I have. Yes, I have, and I saw one photograph. This was at an investigation at a bookstore in Dayton, where I'm from, and I didn't even know it was haunted, it was fascinating. But we did investigation. Anyways, the point being, originally, when I got there, I'm looking for books. I'm a book reader, and I love books, so I'm looking around a paranormal section and all that, and I realized they had a huge paranormal section. I'm like, "Oh my God, so I start talking to the owner there, and this is one of the most convincing photos." This is before AI, by the way, before Photoshop and all that, and I said, "Okay, we got into discussion," and I was like, "Okay, how did you get into paranormal?" Because I didn't believe in ghosts, because I bought this place, and it's an old joint, you know, it's an old building. She said I was mopping one night, and she said, "I heard a kid laugh." And she said, "I turned around and in the mop water on the floor, I saw little footprints." She said, "So I got my camera, and I felt compelled to take a picture. I took a picture." And just as I did, there was an apparition of a little boy peaking around the bookshelf, and I saw the photograph. It was a translucent apparition. But to your question, yeah, I've seen a lot of that, but here's the problem, and getting back to instrumentation, parapsychology has taught us that as much as the phenomenon can manipulate a perception of it, it can manipulate instrumentation as well. But it's not just okay. It appears to be differently than it does to a camera. It's more than that, deeper than that. Whatever we're dealing with has the ability to shut down technology. It'll drain phone batteries. It will drain iPod batteries, or iPad batteries, and all that. If not that, it will fly an orb over a recorder and transplant audio to it. Even sometimes, it will take the tape out, place the tape over here, the recorder over here, an orb will fly over the tape, and it will actually record audio. Now here's a data point that is rather disturbing, that it has been proven now for a long time, that just because it appears to us as a deer and adna, it may not be deer and adna. Okay? Just like the hit track effect. Because it appears as a deceased child doesn't mean it really is. It could very well be an interface, it could be a mask, this entity is using to interact with us. So we understand that. That we have to push back on the form all the time. And just as we understand that, and just as deceitful as it is in that regard, it's also deceitful of EVPs. These beings or whatever they are will want to sound human. To DVP? EVPs, electronic voice phenomena. So essentially, and this happens not just with recorders, it's on cell phones, anything that can record audio where they have different classes, it's just like class AEVPs, those are literally like a podcast. I have a buddy of mine who he captured class AEVPs, sent it into an acoustic engineer and the engineer got hangry at him. He said, listen, there are no EVPs here. I can if they are, I can't hear them over you talking. And that's when this purist psychologist said, no, that's the EVP. So we have those class AEVPs, and we have some other classes that are less convincing. And what's in this audio recording? Oh, human sounding voices, just like human looking spirits, human sounding voices. But what are they saying? What is the content of? All kinds of stuff, all kinds of stuff. I don't know, Steve said cases where he just, he'll put up a camera in a tripod and a voice will say, it's a camera, it's a camera. I did an investigation at the Brownlee Cottage or the Brownella Cottage in Ohio where immediately when we got in there, activity popped up. And this is wild to me because I was greeted first by a woman in the EVP. And she said, "Hello, Nate." And it took me by surprise. I mean, we were in there for about maybe five minutes, you know, pressed record and there we go. And then after that, a man came in and greeted me and then we asked like, okay, like, do you have any questions for an athaniel? And the woman began to speak and then she was cut off immediately by the man Interrupted her and he said I've got it and then he goes into ask me and like how are you doing where you from that kind of thing The problem in my point is that just as they like to mimic human spirits They also like to sound human the problem though with that is parapsychology, especially Steve Maryberry if it's your old work Acoustic engineers have actually compared and contrasted their voices on recorder to actual human voices and their registered completely different one is an actual human voice The other one is something that simply sounds like it to the naked ear, but isn't My point though is that manipulation and deception is pro-foundly present with this intelligence Not just that but But Robert Bigelow he recently launched his own podcast and for those who don't know Robert Bigelow He was the first owner at least the very not the first I was very sure but in the other one before that He was one of the first owners of skin walker ranch and he had created nia's the National Institute of Discovery science in Corm Keller and they're they've got like tons of PhDs They're setting up shop and they're investigating whatever this phenomenon is and In addition to that they were having the hitchhiker effect people going home with apparitions and you know Then we get into Axelrod and the whole lot of books written about it My point though is that They were running experiments and Robert Bigelow actually pulled one of the security guards aside It's okay, you know if you're when you get back home like a loss of egg or something I want to run an experiment with you. I would like you to get on your phone or on your camera and just Snap a photo In your room boom boom boom. Don't even think about it. Just do it You don't even have to feel anything. You don't have to feel watch just take a picture And initially he did and a couple of times he didn't get anything but at one time he captured the bed But that was it What even captured the bed in other words the photons that left the camera They moved all the way up to the end of the bed and then something was stopping them Like if you're yeah sitting in like where was he? Yeah, he sees in bed And he takes a picture of the bed in front of him right and it should show the bed in the rest of the room right It should show the bed the wall the Chester drawers the mirror It stopped there was something that stopped the photograph at the end of the bed and We don't know what that is. What was that space on the photo? Is it just black black? Yeah didn't exist So what that means is that there are countermeasures and I use the term phenomenon loosely I know it's an umbrella and it's an oversimplification. I get it Um Well, I'm looking for vocabulary here So now in the case where you're talking about the EVP yeah when you're in the room you're you're there with whom Like is it just one other person? I didn't fully track the oh yeah that team was with um any tarplay She's in Ohio. So who was in the room with you? Uh, it was any tarplay in her research team And so you start speaking and someone you hear it in your ears or you hear a device that was recording it and we're replaying it So we would say something record that and record another one and it would come through And then sometimes they have another device that it'll it'll it sounds like white noise And then you hear voices coming through it'll punch through the white noise and it sounds Human now. Were you talking during the recording that you had um talking to it. Yes, but I wasn't talking to anybody else No, you were talking to it to it. So nobody's talking Like literally everybody is suddenly sitting still Then it's okay, and this is what Annie did is anybody there Is anybody there? Would you like to talk to a fan you'll and then a voice would come hi Nate and would you hear it? Yeah, we would all hear it It wasn't like it wasn't AirPods everybody there heard it and where was it coming from we don't know but Like where in your field of sort of spatial awareness it was coming out of the device Hmm yeah, and then it's on the device on the device and are these recordings available somewhere? Uh, I don't know if any trouble still has then it's been since that was 2019 and what did you know this voice want to talk to you about Didn't that's all it's all said hi Nate hi Nate. Yeah, hi Nate. I don't know. And then you said there's an interruption Yeah, so the woman started up again to say something and the man said I've got it on the recording on the recording yeah Now again, we don't know what they are and I like I like how The late Paulino frames this we don't know what win Or I said what where or when they are that's how little we know of what is going on here Point being though is that We constantly find deception with these things Over it over it over again Ted Rice was a psychic medium and dr. Turner wrote about this inner book masquerade of angels Where he was a psychic medium for many many years he had trained psychic mediums The and these psychic mediums had their own guides When out of nowhere he starts realizing that okay. I'm suffering from PTSD symptoms I need some help he goes to Barbara Bartholick and dr. Turner And out of nowhere come flooding out of him these memories of being taken as a child along with his grandmother and then he this By extra terrestrials and then he goes to His friends who are psychic mediums and they're got their their guides Start to reframe and sterilize the trauma he experienced from the ET's which is strange Very strange matter of fact they were in contact with an entity called volmo and They didn't really trust volmo volmo would sometimes lie to them And then Ted would go to the these individuals who had guides and the guides would say listen volmos This is fascinating he has a discarnate interplanetary spirit What it so what you have here and beyond again beyond the the manifestations the interfaces Then you go into the terms that are being employed the guides an extra terrestrile And then you have the ghost discarnate beings well my point is this that Where where where and when Ted rises guides that he had been working with for 40 years should have been there When he remembered his abduction They were eerily silent had nothing to say And so then he would go find somebody who had guides and then and then those guides which sterilize his traumatic experience In what that's what we're seeing more often than not in a field too where you have people that suffered at the hand of abductions And it's being reframed as well. You must have made a sole contract with these beings Or or and this is an interesting one too that they did things to you because you must have put that out in the universe It's ridiculous. I don't I don't like that because you know you're not I don't like blaming the victim Now when you say guides you mean other entities that yeah they appear to be guides in other words And I had another experience with the researcher that remote viewer that had guides which we can get into in a second But yeah entities that would say things like you know mark You know I'm go it basically what I'll do sometimes I'll peer to you in your dreams It'll impress you with foreign knowledge like listen. You're gonna get that promotion Or you know you're gonna go out on a date next week and then it ends up happening and it kind of gains your trust and It's it's interesting because my buddy Steve has a friend of his Don Who has a guide And this guide Knows a lot and it's not like a figment of imagination. Steve would call Don and you'll hold about a pocket watch He would say Don Ask I forgot her name was the guide's name ask her what I'm holding and she would say you're holding a watch Steve You're holding a watch How I don't know I don't know how they know but like where where would the sound come from? Yeah, oh he called him He called Don on the phone I want you to test her you know kind of make sure you know and the voice would come through the phone line He would speak for her becky becky was her name becky becky wants to know yeah, what what do you say one time? Hi Steve. How you doing? Doing really okay? Becky was to know how your bath was earlier you enjoy it It's he's like how how did you know you took a bath? I don't know becky said really weird stuff The point though is we don't even know what those are in in some cases like Ted Rice is where They built trusts with this man for through years of Giving him insights and revelations and I don't want to say prophecies because that's kind of you know weird In this context, but and then out of nowhere when it's almost like When the new interface was installed the extraterrestrial the old one was superseded You know it was almost like the at least and just theorizing here was like the guide archetype or the guide In a face was designed to get you in touch with the other And then when the other arrived or when it was realized The guide is no longer needed and it's and that's the problem we're seeing too is this idea that we're not We're not dealing with different entities and manifestations. We're dealing with just one umbrella, one thing or one species that's masquerading as all of the others. And I think that there is something to that, and I don't want, I tend to just go on and on. So just, you know, I'll kind of summarize it with that. Hey guys, we're going to take a break really quick because it's summertime, and I got to tell you something. There's a specific point every summer where you realize that your entire personal style has just been like the same jacket or the same pair of shoes. And that's why I've been rocking with GLD. You see it on my neck? I wear it in every single episode. I wear it all the time. I mean, look at this. The first thing I noticed when I picked it up is like the weight. It's genuinely substantial. It feels great. It has like an actual texture to it. It's awesome. And the details look even better in person. I didn't expect it. The website looks good, but when it's in my hand and around my neck, it actually is way better. I got this crucifix here. Of course, some Catholic. I got to represent Jesus Christ. 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When you use the code camp, C-A-M-P, you're going to get 40% off at GLD.com, 40% off with the code camp at GLD.com. And after you purchase, they're going to ask how you heard about them. Make sure you tell them that Mark increased those from the campsite sent you. Now let's get back to the show. I guess I'm curious, what is the precise evidence you would say that would make you think that they are different things? Like if we're going to buy in and say, "Okay, there's poltergeist, there's orbs, there's, you know, aliens." Let's say all three of these things exist. Why could it not be the case that one person has experiences with multiple? Why is it the case that they are three different things manifesting, but actually one thing underneath it? Oh, well, because we have aliens abducting people and shadow people are in hauntings, and then we have shadow people abducting people and aliens in hauntings, or we have aliens graze manifesting in sayances, or UFOs manifesting in sayances that happen to the school experiment, where they were actually told by the entity, we want you to place a tripod in a room, press record, and then get out of the building until the next day, and they came back in the building, they ended the recording, replay the video, and there is what they called Mr. Blue staring at them. It was an alien grave, alien grave. The issue though is, it's not just imagery here, it's what they're made of, okay? Let they have this recording? Absolutely. Look at Mr. Blue, school experiment, he's shaking his head, he's probably already there. So yeah, this happened in Skoll, England, in the year '90s. There was multiple experiments, so I can't just say one year, so initially it's called a school experiment, but it happened through I think it was the '90s. And why would this entity just want to be filmed? I don't know. But what's really unique about that particular case study is that, okay, so you have apparitions, okay, that's one category. Then you have guides, that's another, then you have alien grays, then you have ghosts, okay? In the Skoll experiment, they were actively in contact with what's called the spiritine, and then they were in contact with, quote unquote, deceased scientists that were trying to assist them in their experiment. And then it was the discarnate, the son that's trying to communicate to his mother, and then out of nowhere, it's your guides that they were in contact with, okay? And then next thing you know, it's, okay, picture this, an apparition of a gray, not a flesh and blood gray, an apparition. That's just the hauntings, no. What it did was it took all of these interfaces horizontally. This is this, this is turning on its head, collapse them into one. Now you have, this happened. You have an apparition of an alien gray that was claiming to be a guide, three of them wrapped up in one. And this happens a lot of times, too, even within our federal government, where once they opened up that portal, they could not stop whatever was coming through, and that's when they had to, for their own good, shut the experiment down. Now, what's so crazy about that case study is the complete annulment of reality. It was just transcended, so case in point, they're sitting in this room, it's pitch black. They have parapsychologists there, they have researchers there, and they have witnesses. And imagine an entire universe, cosmos is in the air. So you see just stars, and it's crazy, it's fascinating when they described it. And shooting, you know, shooting stars here, next thing you know, it slowly descends down upon the table. You're even in one of those museums where you go in there and you see like, you have like the planets and stuff, and that's what it was like. And then out of all of the lights, not all planets, there was one small light that it was moving, all the others were stationary. This one was moving, and then it would shoot a light down onto the table. Sometimes it would shoot a light down on the person's arm. Well, Robin Foy was one of the people that was the main guy in the experiment, and one of the researchers said, Robin, do you, can you give me permission? I want to reach out and touch this ball of light. And he said, fine, go ahead. And so he's capturing in his hand, and it's going through his hand and his body, and it's wild stuff. My point being is that you have these cases where it's not the guide, it's not the apparition, it's not the extraterrestrial, it's not a buffet. It's literally all of them that were turned on its head, pushed back into just one manifestation, and that one manifestation represents all the others. I'm an apparition of an alien great, now I'm your guardian. What do you make of? Transmedium ship, things like the Council of Nine, the raw tapes. You know, I think it's fascinating. Also, did you get a picture of Mr. Blue? I didn't go, buddy. 98. Is this the video? That's just the. I don't know, but. If you roll the video, what happens? I'm just staring at us. Huh. And there's a lot of. All right. Look. I just. I had to learn this the hard way. I thought I understood the skull experiment, right? Growing up in the States, I watched the documentary, you know, I read the books and all that. When I election England and I met some of these people, and there's a lot of data that was never released to us in the States, it's kind of sanitized. What ended up happening was initially, I should say, it was. The books were published as a way to say, okay, you know, we made contact. It was. It was love and light. We experimented. And we experienced. It was amazing. And then at the very end of the experiment, they realized that they had opened up a plural that they could not close. And in it, these were coming out, one by one, my one, my one, my one, my one. They couldn't shut it. So the only thing they could do was to turn the lights on completely in the experiment. But then there was also a move to where that nobody wanted to write a book about it to say, "Hey, listen." It was not all of the light. Because they already established that it was. And so it was kind of. It's an interesting thing. That was the School Experiment Special Experiment. School Experiment. SC, OLE, yeah. So what are we dealing with, though? Again, I think we have placeholders for something that enjoys playing roles. And the problem, though, is, like I said, that we are severely limited as a species. And we focus on form. Now, one of the examples that I give, and you can pull this up to, is the Iranian spider tailed viper. What is that? That is a snake. Okay. What it does, it's exactly what I believe the phenomenon does, and I know people are going to say, "Fenomenon a thing." I know. Well, I can be capulair here. What this snake will do is, first of all, it realizes, okay, it loves birds. That's his primary prey. It loves birds. It loves spiders. So that appendage, if you can show the video of this, this is absolutely incredible. What it will do is it will, the appendage itself at the very tip of its tail, it looks like a spider. It moves like a spider. Here we go. I'm not even going to shoot a good second. I'll murder that first word. - Eurene. - Here it is. Look at that. This is unbelievable. It's supposed to, there it is. Is that not a spider? - So that's not a spider. - Wow. - So what he's doing is he's diversifying itself. Get passionate now, brother. He's diversifying itself. Why? Because he knows that that bird is gonna see a spider. He's going to think that that spider has limitations that spiders have. He will approach that spider as prey, not realizing that that spider is the predator. That is a singular intelligence masquerading, luring that bird into belief. I'm going to treat you as if you can't do A, B, and C. When in reality, what you're hungry for is actually hungry for you. And that's why I tell people that in many cases that we are not the conjurers, the phenomena is conjuring us by diversifying. We mythologize the mask, that's what's going on there. And by the time that bird dive bombs, he latches on to what he thinks is, oh, that's cool. But what is it realized is, yes, that intelligence diversified itself. It's the orb that appears in apparition, right? - Are these things ever good? - Things, I think people have had good experiences with them at times. - Sure, I mean like, if we're using this kind of example like an expert sort of hunter. Or even think of a fisherman that's using different bait to catch different fish, right? Like as humans, we are an intelligence that puts different bait to try to get different things and different types of lures to catch different types of fish. And perhaps a fish could come and eat the bait and not get hooked. And that fish goes away thinking like, oh nice, I caught some food. And maybe they see the line and they're like, oh yeah, these lines give us free food, that's awesome. But then every now and again, they get snacked. So is it the case that some of these people are having experiences where they're good, but they're ultimately evil or nefarious? - Well, I think there, well, there are some cases where people believe it was love and light. And then later on, they suffer. - Do you have an example? - Yeah, Ted Rice, he's the same guy I was talking about earlier where, oh my God, okay, let's break it down. So, he's a psychic medium. He starts going through PTSD symptoms, goes through memory regression, come to find out that he was, okay, so he's like eight or nine years old, he was staying the night at his grandmother's house. Now, consciously, he remembers a disembodied voice. Now, where's that come from? That's an ontology. A disembodied voice begins to speak to him and his grandmother in the room. He starts crying, she starts rebuking it, okay, the grandmother. And he's hiding underneath the covers, crying, and she's rebuking it. And it finally leaves, right? And then he asks her what was that, and I believe she said something, it was the devil son, go back to bed, it's okay. Well, later on in life, he realizes that that was not the extent of the experience, that the reason that memory is so traumatic for him is because they were both abducted, they were both taken in the middle of the subduction, and again, this is a dawning of the interface. You have the entity, the substrating interface, where the entities were trying to do something to his grandmother. And the grandmother goes basically, I've only known one man, it's my husband. No, my husband, but he's dead now, you know, and you're not my husband. And the entity went into a room, came back out as her husband. Well, just again, literally pulled it right over his face, and was like, okay, what are you going to do now? And Tim learned this from the grandmother, she told this to him. Yeah, so what it, yeah, he's clocking her, right? Again, looking through the archive of imagery, which one, which one would you give consent to? And here's another data point that people need to understand, it's not just that it's manifesting to us as anything, it's manifesting to us as what we're most likely to believe in. And I'll kind of stretch that out here in a second. My point, though, is that experience was more profound way, more meaningful than he originally thought, because she rebuked the entity. The entity laughed, and really bad things happen. And matter of fact, the entity went to do something to Ted, and she stood in the middle of him. And it said, absolutely not, you're not going to do that to my grandson, and he said, okay, because you've done this, I'm going to put something in your head. You are going to die. And the next morning, I believe it was, she had an aneurysm, passed away, I believe, yeah. And did Ted see the manifestation of the apparition as his grandfather? Absolutely. Despite his grandfather being dead. They play roles. Does he remember that in his conscious, like, waking messengers? Is that through the regression? This is through regression. So when you kind of add all these pieces together, again, if people can say the final dimmer, I'm not, I don't really know what I'm at this point. I know that I don't have all the, I mean, I don't have all the inches, obviously. And I don't even have as many inches as that I started out with. I have questions, and the questions that I have now are not the questions I begin with. And perhaps that's the whole point of this, right? To ask better questions, it's like Abraham Ashall said, he was doing a lecture at Kent University, and they asked him, they said, okay, what's the definition of a good teacher? He said, a teacher's not the one who gives you all the answers. A teacher is the one who gives you all the questions. And that's why I believe that the field is evolving to a place where we are acquiring differently. This may not have anything to do with what we think it might have to do with reality in our co-creation of it. Co-creating the interface. See, it's not just that it gives images and interfaces. It's the idea that we're helping it, right? - What are the most famous cases, if you were to speak with like an absolute skeptic? Is there a prominent case or a case that you've worked on specifically, or even one that you've heard about, that you would reference and say this, I think is the most definitive case that skeptics should be aware of to at least have some openness to this phenomena. - Yeah, there's the Debra Moffet case, oh my God. So let me preface that with this. Go, for those who are building a files like me, James Lukatsky just recently wrote a book called Future Visions in that book. He talks about a case study in Tennyson, Indiana, and not just that, but another case study in there where a family experienced poltergeist activity along with UFOs, where the entity was taking knives and just driving it into the wall. It would. - Where was this and what was it? - I don't know what year it was. He never gave the year, but Nidz had actually investigated this particular case study. I believe it was Nidz, either that or bass. - This is like 90s, or like what's in the modern era? - I think it was 2005 or 2007, I believe. - Okay. - That's when they were doing their investigations. But point being is that the entity was driving like knives into the wall. It was supporting objects out of nowhere. It would attack the family. It would scratch them. They would. Anyway, so that's not a one-up. There's the Debra Moffit case, where they call it Mr. entity. - Could you look this up? Pull it up, whatever you find it. - Can you pull up the symbols that it was putting on the wall, the triangle, and all that, and then they'll have it. You want to just look it up. It's really cool. Anyways, Debra Moffit is the same thing that Debra Moffit experienced. Whatever this entity was, was communicating to her, where she would ask a question, she would get up the next day and would write on a mirror. And it's crazy because like they would wake up and the entity would cut up their socks. It would take one of the shoes so you would only have the one shoe to wear and you couldn't wear it, you know, it's like okay. It would cut up the carpet, it would tear the drapes up, and it would carve its own symbol in the wall. It's fascinating. And she had multiple investigators, multiple priests that went there to research it, it's documented. It's not just witnessed, like they had documentation of it, where it actually a port of a spear. Yeah, her, I think it was her father-in-law, 'cause what happened was they lived in a cul-de-sac. They all lived in one house. It was like her husband, her in-laws, and the own rental properties throughout the cul-de-sac. So anyways, this entity was a porting objects, taking objects from the house and a porting others into it, and it had actually apported a spear about this long. It was black, cold of the touch, is in the middle of the night, the father-in-law felt a touch him and he's freaking out. What is that? It just shows up out of nowhere. That's the case study, at least in the hauntings that I would appeal to. And then also the Jackie Hernandez case study by Dr. Barry Tath. Okay, before we go to that, do you have some of the pictures of that? You can just pull 'em up whenever you grab 'em. look at the knife. Now, for those who are familiar, that's exactly what Lakatsky was talking about in his case study. And what's so fascinating about this is that it's not like he just made it up, right? This case study, he was in the 80s, in 1986, it preceded that case study that Lakatsky investigated. Was this significant that it was on this woman's image? Yeah, actually it was. So that woman right there, that it's on, the entity wanted a sacrifice. What happened in this case? The entity was haunting then, and this is what we're realizing. It's weird. It was wanting a sacrifice, and it was after the mother-in-law said that a long time ago she was promised to him, and he came to collect. It's one of the weirdest cases ever. Now, can you go to the symbol again at the top? Now, that was its own personal symbol or sigil, and you have the seal right there. So what is this little pie here? Like, what is that? Do you know what these different things are? I think these are family members that it had created kind of a map of sort. Now, I haven't read that article yet, but what's so fascinating about this is, oh God, now we've got to get a demonology. Okay. This entity was not, okay, like when you get a demonology, people say, okay, they're just here to steal, kill, destroy. It's horns and hooves, right? They're just wanting to possess you. They're trying to destroy the image of God. No, like this entity was carving its own sigil into the mirror. It had actually apported a spear in so that she could perform, and this is what she said, a ritual for it. And how did she know that this-- Because it had told her what it was doing, because she would go and she would ask it a question, okay, initially what happened was she woke up one day and it would write in the mirror. This is not all long up, by the way. People say, you know, they'll have their opinions. And what does this say? Debbie can stop something, not me. Yeah, not me. It was intelligent, had a language preference, it had memory, and it had its own symbol or its own sigil. It's one of the more fascinating case studies now. Multiple people investigated this case. Can you look up the spear and see if you can find the spear? I'm sorry, as you were, multiple people have looked into this. They didn't know what to do with it. Multiple priests said, came in, one priest had actually said, well, the only thing I can do is to go home with me and not with you and try to get it away. They could tell me what it was doing. I mean, doing wild stuff where they would go out to eat with a neighborhood friend, like the liberator out of the corner, and then the neighbor would go to get his billfold out to pay for the meal and the billfold's gone. And then they would go home to get their mail and the billfold would be in their mailbox. They'd have to wave them down and try to explain why I was in their mailbox. When you say billfold, you mean wallet. Yeah, it's an old school. That's not any stuff, but what's so crazy is, again, these are manifestations and weird. Very strange. Now, has anyone like looked at this spear? Has anyone? Yeah, they took it to, I believe it was the Museum of Natural History and they found an expert that said that was not used for hunting. It was used for ritual sacrifice. That's what they were told. What? Do they have like an era or like a time? Do they know anything about it, like historically? I don't know. It's have a metal I was made out of. I'm so curious if there was some type of like analysis that was done on this because it was something that it was a port, like a port. Yeah, so anyways, this is not like, again, out of one of and people will say, okay, well, there's issues with that. Go back to the last message on the mirror. No integrity, no homage, no depth, no character. No, that was written. I remember that in his pursuit. If I'm not okay, they had a priest that came in, I believe it was. I think yeah, and the entity didn't like him, so it was just to be disrespectful. Whatever that is though, and this gets that's more like a practitioner of something. An initiate, not just, you know, horns and hooves or not, just some kind of demon and Western theology that that right there. I mean, it even told her one time that it used to exist in like a seminary or something. If you get the word at what that it used, but it actually lived. There's a human. Yeah. No, why could it not be the way like a Catholic would interpret a demon? To me, this doesn't seem like it would be atypical of a demon, right? Again, I'm not a demonologist, but no, again, when you're getting a Catholic demonology, it's not as much of a practitioner. And that's not just one of them. You know, we get it to eat you by literature. This was one of Father Storavimino's arguments where he came across the other species of what people call demons, but it was leaving secretions and sigils on bodies. And so that's when they concluded that it was something more akin to a practitioner, not just a demon, but something that was kind of an intermediate or intermediate. It's something in that liminal state. It was kind of both a hybrid. And I think that's kind of what we're dealing with here. Do you know if these people profited from this story or like, was there any? She wrote a book about it. That's about it. Any like personal incentive. I'm trying to like, no matter, fact, they lost. So what it up happening was again, they had rented a house out. They had a bunch of rentals. And this entity had actually forced multiple people out of their homes. They actually lost money. So it was a haunting of this, this personal house. Yeah. Yep. You don't know the real Andre. He must pay for his betrayal. Another image written on a mirror. Hmm. So pretty crazy stuff, man. Do you know how this concluded for them? Oh God. So they went through everybody. I mean, they had parapsychologists there. They had priests there. They had Dr. Evelyn Paglini. And I don't know that much about her, but what was interesting that she said this. And this is more representative of the ancient mindset. It's either a demon, a ghost or a god. And the only way that they would respond and tickle, he was to give them a safe space, a sacred space, a sacred space, a safe space where they just kind of give them their own location. And then like light candles to us. That's what she said. Like, whatever this is, is ancient and you've got to create a space for it. And maybe it'll leave you alone. But what so did they do that? I don't remember. I do not remember the space for us in a while. Um, an alter. I think you're saving Bill and an alter. What is that though? What is that? And I just think that people say demon. Again, it's kind of a conversation. Ender. It's a thought ending sentence. And I think that more off the nod, that's, that's the beginning of the conversation. That's where we should start. Like if we're going to talk about that, it's not because, okay, just say it's ABC and we'll go home. Like, no, that actually opens up a whole new conversation of what this means and what it could represent. So it says here, the message will be the last communication. Mr. Entity Chronicle by Deborah. The last entity is allowed. I said, oh yeah, they all done a heart for you. A lot. I said goodbye, Mr. Entity. And those last time I ever spoke to him, can you script just a touch there? Chris does. Um, of one more paragraph. I just want to see the top part here. During the next few weeks, Gary made arrangements for relocating. Do you remember who Gary is in the story? Someone Gary made relocation for to England. There were, there were no anomalous manifestations. Then on the night before Gary's departure, there's a new mirror writing message. I am ready to leave here when you are myself, the name, the entity used for Gary. Now we go, now we now go on with our life. You are now mine. My servant after Gary left for the airport. Deborah went to the mirror, saw written goodbye, my family, a lot. I said goodbye, Mr. Entity. And the last time I ever spoke to him, of course, we didn't actually believe he was gone. After that, after what we had been through over the past several years, it was doubtfully he would just leave like that. That message would be the last communication of Mr. Bill seniors passing occurred in 2007. He had not been in contact for years. The official cost of death is reported to be congestive heart failure and obstructive pulmonary disease. Leameter transition does a nine after returning home from a two week hospital stay for double pneumonia. Deborah heard Lee say, mama and speak to to brush shortly before Bill junior told Deborah that Lee had passed. Gary lived in England and Deborah once heard that he was living in Spain. Shortly after he left, he told me that he found to try and go with the tailcarbs as a part of the door. But after that, he refused to talk about it into nine entirely, the mystery I already was still with him. So this is a crazy case study. But in future events, James LeCatsky mentions a family and I think it was in Tennessee, Indiana, where. Imagine this, a father who lost his son a year before, uh, his TV turns on. And you know, you put your password in to like watch a streaming service or something. Lakatsky says that the entity started typing out messages to the man, to the father on the TV on the TV same same kind of thing here in the entity and in what's wild is the father originally thought that it was his DC son. And the way that Lakatsky words it in future events, it's almost, I don't, I'm not projecting here. I'm not assuming. So I have to frame it correctly. It's almost like the entity wanted the father to believe it was his DC son because the way he words it is that after many questions and asking many questions on there, the entity would constantly give the wrong answers. So it's like, wait, you can't be my son. Like asking personal questions about it. And the entity would know and it would try, oh, yeah, I'll give you an answer, but it wasn't the correct answer. But anyway, some point is that was written on the mirror. This would be typed out typed out on the television, brother. And this isn't just, you know, this is not Deborah Moffa. This is James Lakatsky dealing with the same, previous, the same manifestations here in this particular case in Indiana is a disembodied voice that I think his name was Billy claimed to be Bill or something. And he's like just talking to the family, cussing them out in this case, not in this case, comparing these two cases here. So that so people know that's just not a one off. But again, what is that we don't know in the frustrating part about it is, like I said, the instrumentation is deeply limited. Yeah. Hey guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I want to tell you about energy. 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I like keeping them on my computer desk because, you know, they give me that steady locked in feeling without having another cup of coffee. My favorite is this watermelon or the blue razz. It has like a sweet kind of blue raspberry, almost like candy flavor. So upgrade to ultra neutropic pouches, ultra is the ultimate guilt free pouch delivering instant focus and mental clarity without nicotine or caffeine. And the new customers can use camp to get 15% off at take ultra.com. That is take ultra.com for 50% off with the code camp. And after you purchase, they're going to ask where you heard about them. The column mark increased osentia from the campsite. I'm the one that I always find so compelling is Latoya Amons. We're talking about that a little bit before. If you can pull up the, there's like a New York daily news article about when it happened. This is probably like dozens, six or seven or something like that. Maybe my dates are a little bit off. But the article and the story is compelling to me. It also became the story behind the film the, I forgot the name, came out like a couple years ago. Not at Deliverance, maybe, I think that's what it was. And the story is compelling to me because there are so many independent sightings from people that are not directly involved. So there's stories from the child department of health, they're like the child protective services basically going over there and hearing about this haunting, hearing about these kids that are possessed and trying to figure out what's going on. And that person also sort of saw things and reported to the newspaper and put in the police court, the nurse that was involved in the case that was basically like treating the children also apparently saw things and reported it and told the police. And so once you get multiple points of external kind of confirmation, that's where I started to go like, what's going on here? Like some of these cases like, for example, what was the name of the family in this case? The Moffitt family. It's like, okay. I wasn't there. Right. Of course. I don't know if there was a police officer that had a documented report of like I saw this or some other type of outside observer. Priests, they are one priest did. Sure. But again, in this sort of paradigm, if I'm coming at it from like a completely skeptical angle, like a priest is someone that is obviously predisposed to believing supernatural. So like, is there someone that might not have a necessary predisposition? Again, I don't know the sort of philosophical, yeah, right at the hospital or so. Right. So the fact that, like in this case, it's like, okay, well maybe there's some type of logical explanation. Maybe there's some type of case of, you know, and we can kind of get into some of the skeptical claims a little bit later of like different ways that people would try to explain this phenomenon. But maybe there's an explanation. But the fact that in this case, if you go to the, the, I think it's the New York Daily News. Is that what it is? If you go to paywallremover.com, you can pull it off. Not a plug, just a website I like. It's, it's interesting because there's these specific cases where they're like, yeah, I saw the person climb off the wall, like things like that. So can you describe that case? Oh my God. It's, it's a really chilling case. So you want me to start from square one, one of the originated, take it back. Oh my God. So the young boy, the little boy was discovered in his closet one night talking to an invisible entity. When the mother asked him, what are you, were you talking to, who were you talking to? The little boy said, I'm talking to another little boy here. He's telling me what it feels like to be killed. That's when everything started. He started demonstrating what are called possession symptoms or symptoms of possession, not just obsession, but actively being possessed. They take it to the hospital and the hospital room is there with his mother, his siblings and his grandmother. He then walks up according to this testimony's wild stuff. He walks backwards up to the wall and his back legs, he's walking. And then he flips over, lands in the chair, looks at his grandmother, starts laughing. Well, nurses were in that room. They watched it and they ran out screaming. They went and got the chaplain and the chaplain said, we need something, we need somebody bigger than me. So they went out and got Michael Magano, father Michael Magano to go and investigate it. And once they actually went to the home itself, they interviewed the grandmother there and in the house. And the grandmother said that she would, she'd actually be in the, her room or be in the bathroom. And she, with the lights off, she would see figures walking in the living room. I would be out. I would be, I would be on Airbnb right now. And so she would see them walking and then she turned the light on and it wouldn't be there, turned the light off and they'd be walking. And people, and people are so funny, they're like, well, they got that from a movie. It's like, that's the opposite. It's actually, yeah, it's the reverse where people get movie ideas from these case studies. And as you can see, we can discover the magic here and, you know, so this is the article that comes, it came out, 2014, as one was published, so it says, Gary and Anne, a mother of three claims that demons cause her 12-year-old daughter to levitate nine-year-old son to walk in a hospital, sealing accounts supported by medical personnel and police officials in a shock report. Again, this comes from New York Daily News, the repudibility of that paper I can't speak to. But it says, it says that effectively this exact thing that you're saying, late-night footsteps, creaking of door, wet footprints, left by a male figure. Yeah. And if you scroll down a little more, so it was a first-screen that alerted the grandmother, rose Campbell to the girl's bedroom, I thought, what's going on, why is this happening, then the girl fell back into bed, she gained consciousness, but had no memory of what's happening. Two clairvoyance told him that the house was filled with more than 200 demons. The family's church recommended pouring olive oil on Amman's children's hand at feet and putting crosses on their forehead as a form of protection. Now, continue to go down. As an element of this specific one, go down a little bit more, yeah. So when asked what they were talking about, her son allegedly told her the child was describing what it was like to be killed. Not long after that, the woman claims her seven-year-old flew out of the bathroom, that her 12-year-old daughter requires stitches after being hit on the head. The girl told healthcare professionals that sometimes she felt like she was being choked, a voice would tell her she would never see her family again. And then this guy, in 2012, the family went to see Dr. Jeffrey on Yekwu, who's encountered with the children, and he said he would never forget. 20 years, I've never heard anything like that in my life about their first meeting since the frightening events began. I was scared myself when I walked into the room. Now, go down a little more. There's one specific case right here. So Amman's was reported to DCS for possible child abuse, when she was a value she was found to be of sound mind. The DCS case manager, Valerie Washington, was then called to a value with the children. And she met them, the youngest, she reported, again, this is the DCS case manager. Yes, yes. And this is no means involved in the family or as a part of a shared psychosis or anything. She reported that the child started to growl, flashes teeth, and then his eyes rolled back into his head. Scroll a little more. So this part right here, this is the part that's most interesting. So Campbell, this is the grandmother, took the boy's hand because he was at nine years old and allegedly headbutting his grandmother. And she started to pray when the boy walked backwards up a wall and onto the ceiling where he flipped and landed perfectly on his feet. Washington's DCS report, again, this is from the Department of Child Services. Her report corroborated with Willie Lee Walker, a registered nurse who was in the room with them. He walked up the wall, flipped over the grandmother, and stood there. There's no way he could have done that. Washington and her police report described the boy as gliding. The seven-year-old boy stayed overnight at the hospital while Campbell took the other two children to a relative's house for the night. I mean. Oh, a bathroom light bulb flickered. There you go. There you go. A bathroom light bulb flickered blinds in the kitchen so the swing footprints would appear in the living room. Now, this to me is the most interesting because, again, you have doctors and nurses that are completely unrelated to this. Perhaps they believe in the supernatural, but, again, perhaps they don't. They don't. Yeah, certainly. And they see someone climb with the walls and flip onto their feet at nine years old. Going all the way to the ceiling, again, just to me, I'm like, I don't know what's going on here. You're like, I agree, brother. And not just that, but the entity that was possessing one kid would kind of leave him and go to the others one by one. It's a fascinating case study. It's not a one-off, man. It's just they're out there. Very strange. Now, we talked a little bit about married apparitions before. Yeah. Now, again, I grew up Catholic so I was always like, yeah, there's your divergent Mary appearing and sort of the lore behind them. If anyone's not familiar with what these cases are, married apparitions are a sort of recorded piece of church history that fits within Catholic theology that the virgin Mary would appear to certain people in different places. So obviously, Juan Diego in Mexico is where you're going to get the famous image that many Mexican sort of represent almost as like a national emblem of our Lady of Guadalupe, which again is the virgin Mary appearing to this guy. Another is the case of the children of Fatima, where the virgin Mary appears to three children and does this sort of miraculous sighting with this massive sort of movement of the sun where hundreds, I mean, some estimate into the multiple thousands, I think even the lowest number is like 20,000 up to like 50,000 people in Portugal in the early 1900s. See this, what they call the dance of the sun, where they thought that the world was ending because the sun was like moving around in such a rapid way. Even people going there to debunk it, people from anti-Claric, anti-church newspapers showing up to be like, yeah, the church got us all wound up about this BS Mary thing, all of a sudden they're going home being like, well, I still don't believe it, but something very weird happened. So once again, skeptics coming away with a very strange sort of appearance, they get not in antiquity, this isn't in the early 1900s. And in this framework, I know you kind of mentioned that it's possible that these entities could appear in these apparitions. Yeah. What do you make of these apparitions from this framework? Well, why are they doing that? It's my question. You know, it's not just that they're manifesting as a religious figure, they're doing that for a reason, and they're, it's almost like they're making profits and they're creating their own religions. And what inevitably happens is you'll have some of that witnesses in entity like that and they'll have a following and they will kind of, and you've probably seen it as well in the field. Well, whether they're like my beings, they'll have some kind of ownership or they'll come out, and before you know it, they have their own religious creed, they'll have their own tradition, they'll have their own method of contact, and then they'll have this cold following, and one theory is that's the whole point of it. You know, they're mediators now, they're profits to whatever these beings are. You know, it's unique because, I shouldn't even say it's not unique. The Catholic Church recently is about maybe two years ago, so it's fairly recently, or they revised their qualifications for apparitions, if an apparition is true. And it does come from God, they listed different details about how to determine that, and why would you do that if you didn't believe that there are entities masquerading as these religious figures? So that's when you go into people that were, that have seen her in the governments and contact with them, and you look at them and you ask yourself, is it possible that the government's not really wanting to be in contact with the white lady? They're more so wanting to understand your abilities, makes sense, pick it up when I'm putting down. Yeah. And so I, me personally, I don't trust them at all, I'm not talking about people, I'm talking about the phenomenon at large, I do not trust the entities that manifest as religious figures, mainly because if it is the, the Virgin Mary mother Mary, then we have to go back to Jim Simevian and what he said. Now, me as a phenomenologist or whatever people want to call me, I don't care at this point, I am very well versed in folklore, I understand that, I've researched all that, so I know that the white lady was more or less a predictable manifestation, mostly seen in hauntings, where people literally had an understanding or they had a way of interpreting her presence to where it was, she was what is so often, people just, they, they chalked it up to perhaps it was a, a bride that died in her wedding dress. So it's not just a lady in white, she's seen everywhere, it's not just the mother Mary or the Virgin Mary, no, that's just the predictable manifestation of the white lady, which is more on the lines of what Jim Simevian said initially, it was not interpreted, she was not interpreted as the Virgin Mary or mother Mary, it was just the white lady, and this is what Jim Simevian said, Jim Simevian said that she had homo-orotic tendencies, now this gets back to form versus function, looking at what it appears to be and measuring it against what it's doing, what it's known to do, I don't care what you call yourself, it's the bloody footprints in the snow, what are you doing, form versus function? So you look at that, you ask yourself, well how can it be homo-orotic and be mother Mary? People will say, okay, well that all funnels back to the original archetype, no, it cannot share these together, if they're different people, she was not homo-orotic, my point being though, is that I'm not using the term archetype in the union sense, I'm simply saying that these are predictable manifestations that are being confused and then being reinterpreted as the years go by, when the mother Mary, when a white lady first manifested, she was giving false prophecies and she was accompanied by shadow people and that family. In which family? What's this? Now, I think, I like Chris a lot, I think they're all cool people, I just don't trust the phenomenon, I want to make that plain. Yeah, I think that makes sense, and I think skepticism over any type of apparition, it's probably healthy. I think that's probably the right move, anytime something appears to first say, well did you actually see something, and then secondarily, well is what you actually saw, what it actually said that it was, and so I look at these cases where like Mary and apparitions, like Fatima for example, where I'm like, all right, the mother Mary, as it is said by these children appears to these kids and appears to 20,000 people sort of inform, and the outcome of that, again, knowing a tree by its fruits, it's like, well, millions of people are now dedicating to Christ in some way, they're praying their rosary, they're becoming more religious, these children go on to live very devout lives within the church, and so I'm like, well the outcome of this, if this is some type of non-human entity that is not the mother Mary, to me I'm like, well, it massively backfired because it brought more people to knowing Christ, unless that's a part of the grand deception on top of everything. Well, I would suggest that that is a, or at least that played a role in it, and it could and would and did was really interpret it as that, right? It's re-acorporated back into the Catholic creed and doctrine, and yet now we're praying to orbs. Right. Well, praying to orbs is a bad move. Well, and here's the evolution of it, and again, I don't know if that has any to do with the Mary and have a relation. Well, what it mean, though, is that it, well, not arbitrarily, I'm saying the mother Mary and the white lady in this context where it's like, okay, that was, it was benign, no big deal, and then we go from it being benign to just pray to orbs, and then if anybody has a bad experience with orbs, well, you're either lying or that's frustrating because I've like my dear friend, the late Michael Lynch, had a case study where an orb picked him in up off his feet, and he's up against the wall, and he's being choked by one of these things. And it had something around its neck, and then when they're looking at it, they saw a hand print around his neck, and what I am suggesting here again is early on, we were scoffed at. I was scoffed at when I said, well, what they're doing, it sounds like prayer, people like that's your idiot, the thing, you know, what are you talking about? And then next thing, you know, it was like, well, yeah, they are. Right. So you mentioned Chris Bledso in his case. Can you explain for the guy listening that doesn't know Chris Bledso and how this interface This is kind of a slow video. lady in white and why we're drawing these comparisons with marine apparitions. Yeah, so I want to say I'm going to just express myself here. Look, I like Chris Bledzo. This is not against him and his family at all. I just don't trust the phenomenon. He's an experiencer and he wrote a book called The UFO of God and he was an abductee and he had an encounter with a white lady who basically told him that he will be needed and that there was a I'm going to say a vowel that he made with her or something to where if she needed him that he needed to be there and then after the initial encounter with the white lady he then goes to a conference to give a lecture to talk about his experience and in mid-sentence something comes over him and he begins to basically predict the future in front of everybody. Is there a video that's conference? Mine have been. I didn't I didn't go but he talks about it all often and so when people say, okay, it's just the marine apparition. No, it's not right. This thing evolves. Well, does this thing claim to be the mother Mary? He calls for that and I think that that's where the confusion lies, right? It's the white lady, it's the divine feminine now. This gets murky because I don't know if he's being told that right by the powers that be. Oh, she's of this. He's okay. Or if that's something that she's directly articulated to him, what I do know though is that it's like the forming of a new religion. It's and again, I hate to be that guy. It is what it is, but it is concerning because if an entity manifested in my house and was accompanied by shadow figures and was giving me false prophecies and terrifying everybody around me and then later on I'm convinced that it's benevolent. I would question a lot of that. When you say false prophecies, what do you mean? Um, just predicting events and stuff. That's what they do, okay? That's what they do. They'll predict events and then it just won't come to pass and Dr. Collector and I have many of these cases and it doesn't make sense. It's like, okay, sometimes they'll give you like an insight to a revelation and people call these tricksters. I still can't wrap my mind around that. Like, you know, it'll go from okay here in a year or two. You're going to be at a conference or you know, this person is going to be assassinated and then and then they'll give you something that sounds true, right? It sounds plausible and you'll go out there and tell everybody why? Because they were right. You have the three times and then you go out there and tell everybody what you've been told and you just fall on your face. Yeah, this is kind of what, you know, I think it was Diana Poussica that actually told him that like, I think she even mentioned this where she was like, you know, these these things can can lie. And again, we don't know why that happens. It's like some stupid game they play. It just doesn't make any sense. Now, you referenced earlier that the entity that you experienced wanted you to feel fear. Yeah. So what is the desire for these things to want to make you and us sort of royally us? Why do they want us to feel fear? What is it that they ultimately want? This goes back to the hungry ghost legend and antiquity where you have theoretically. You have an entity or that was formerly embodied and so it's hungry. It's hungry, hungry, hungry, but it cannot eat food. It's thirsty, but it cannot take drink. It's tired, but it cannot rest. And so there are certain features and characteristics that can only occur and be fulfilled and had if they were embodied, but they're not. So what they'll do is, and this is just a theory again, is that they will torment to feel fear or they will even the trigger emotions, right? That's the big deal. They'll trigger emotions though. And a lot of that is the interface, the interface designed to get those emotions. So that's a theory I buy into a somewhat, but I want to, I want to suggest this again that a lot of times it's not so much of a game as it is. The ability and the desire to render oneself into this environment. When you get into press psychology, we discussed this earlier where it's not just that the doors are being slammed and you're seeing shadow people. It's puttergeist activity. It's the noisy ghost where it's knocking on walls. People thought originally that was the result of a mindless unguided process. It's just happening. No big deal. And initially it was unfortunately blamed on like, you know, adolescent children, specifically young girls who were going through puberty or something and they're releasing the psychic energy and they're causing these things to happen. It's sad because they were often blamed and it was wrong. I mean, it wasn't just wrong to do that. It was wrong phenomenologically, right? It was just, they were wrong. Point being is that it's not a mindless unguided process. What this phenomenon does, again, umbrella term, I get it, is it will do all of that and then it will get a reaction out of you. And Steve Mary had a case like this where the intelligence knocked something off a wall and they heard it everywhere and I call my god, it was super loud. And they went back to the video footage. It was just a small object that fell. They went to experiment. It knocked it off themselves and barely made a noise. So why did this intelligence want them to hear it? Why did it want them to feel it? Because it heightened them, right? It got them to fear it, got them to be concerned. Who is this in my house? What is going on? In the problem that a lot of, and I had this two in my experience where a lot of young researchers and even older researchers were doing this before parapsychology kind of took a leap and understanding where they would go in there and go, "Oh, thank you. It's a little girl." Or even like with Doris Bitter, one of very task cases where she had two signs and was being a cost and attacked by two entities. And so, again, she must be projecting psychic energy, you know, and it's two entities because she has two signs that was the way people thought them. What I would suggest is happening is that this is more or less like a program that's being operated, right? It has its own autonomy. It's a program. It's developing a certain environment. And when that environment is peaked and it's ready, the entity will suck in all that energy and that's collected. And now it's not a poltergeist. It's making eye contact with you, right? It's not just an apparition walking down the steps. It's an actual entity, and now it's it's going to use everything. It's conjured in that environment to do what it wants. Now this gets back into, and I don't know if you want to, we can do this in the next interview or something, but so we're going to go into the Hitchhiker Effect and Transmissibility of the contact contagion, where you start to realize that that entity is searching for paranormal architecture. It's not going to stick with you. It's going to go somewhere else. So it started with you in your house with poltergeist activity. It's building itself up. Now that it's here, it's searching for paranormal architecture. What do I mean? I mean literally the blueprint and environment that exists overlaid on this environment that we're in and of. It's tracking. Now it's not just here. It's across the street. So as much as the interface is tailored for you, the experience may be for somebody else, you may just be the current host. Interesting. Now is there an effective antidote to this? Oh god. Right, like the movie one is holy water and like the power of Christ, it tells you and all that kind of stuff. Like if I ever experienced this, I'd probably pray to Jesus and be like, this gets into, oh my lord, this is this is what I'm really passionate about. If someone's dealing with this right now, the guy that's watching this, let me, okay, I want to build some some foundation here because I don't, I can give people ideas and ways to push the piece back in the darkness somewhat. But I gotta explain what's going on. So James the Catsky nids clump color her. They had, they, they brought about a measure disclosure that we've yet to have in the field. What was their disclosure? We're not just studying your thoughts. We're not just studying consciousness. We're studying a, a contagion that operates like an illness, like a sickness. That sickness is contracted by virtue of contact. And people are like, who would go call that? Let's do it. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's look at what the data says. Not in a thing. Oh, gillus. Look at what comb color her and what cats. He admits it. So what's happening is they use the example. It's not, it's not the sum total of the samples. It's just the one they go to skin walker ranch. They go to skin walker ranch. And what's happening is you have these researchers and they call them Axel Robert. I believe it was Jay Stratton, to my knowledge, who is at skin walker ranch. And as he's actively on the property, this intelligence is already in his house. That is house where? I think it was in Virginia, but not as skin walker ranch. No, he's at skin walker ranch. The phenomenon is already out of his house. And that is, okay, they had so many cases and nids in comb colors research where they called them. that the hitchhiker effect. So essentially, on researching one thing, I'm going home with something else, something else is following me. And so the hitchhiker effect originated in virology, it was designed to describe one thing that leads to another thing, one disease, that leads to another disease. And what is actually happens, and this is so incredibly fascinating to me, is that these people researchers that happened at the Lawrence Livermore laboratory, it happened to the most alamos laboratory, it happened with kit grains research, happened at NIDS, Eric Davis experienced this, Jimmy Corbell, experienced this, not Jimmy Corbell, Brandon Fugel did, where it's UFOs here, it's encrypted there, and then I go home, and it's a full bloom of lava and haunting, apparitions, ghosts, disembodied voices. And most people in their research, they stop there at the intersection, and I'm like, oh my god, these data points, it's so fascinating, and it is, it's rich, it's rich in data. The thing though, is that those apparitions, being interfaces of the intelligence, were accompanied by autoimmune diseases. This was huge for me. And these family members were saying, okay, I saw these apparitions, and again, go to Column Keller's article in Edge Science, he talks about this in depth, where it's like, okay, they research the phenomenon, and they go home, and they have apparitions of dead children, not I'm like, in the ambulance case, they're in the house, and they're haunting people. In that contact experience, a contagion manifests in the bodies of the experiencers. So you have this transmissibility that's transfer, where I see an apparition, or I see the paranormal, I see something, and then because I'm in contact with it, a contagion's release, now I'm suffering from autoimmune diseases, not unlike some experiencers, come down with, and they have them autoimmune disease, after encountering this intelligence, the same thing that Dr. Collector and I had another one of those cases, where a little girl was being taken as a little girl, and she's young, it's not like she just started being abducted as an adult. No, it occurred to her when she was young, into her adulthood, but she contracted an autoimmune disease. So that, to them, at least, nids at Column Keller, that the attachment led, it was like, okay, you see an apparition, you suffer from an autoimmune disease. Now, what's crazy is, is that that was not just contact contagion, but our ancestors would have called that the result of spirit contact. - So then, what does someone do against that? - So in the Nine of Attab, not in the Nine of Attablets. - What are those? - This is where I'm getting at, this is fascinating, 'cause I had to build a foundation to answer your question. The scholar Joanne Skurlock, details in her work, it's called Medico, or I'm sorry, Magico, medical means of treating ghost-born illnesses. How she frames it. The ancient experience, or this is why I believe it's been here forever, it's not like, okay, just showed up when we realized it, you know. I made eye contact with it, I read a book, it's here now. No, it's been here for a long time. So much so that our ancestors, especially in Mesopotamia, they were countering the same phenomenon. They were also witnessing ghosts, and then suffering from autoimmune diseases, so much so that they framed their exorcistic right around it, that's your answer. And so we call them, it's contact contagion, you see something of paranormal and apparition, and then you suffer a disease. The what they would call that is a ghost-born illness and the way they would investigate that is you would have a physician who was also your exorcist. They would go in and ask the question, have you witnessed a deceased loved one recently? And they have one case, isn't in the number of tablets. Also again, in her book, Magico, medical means of treating ghost-born illnesses. Okay, have you seen the apparitions of the dead? And one man said absolutely for the last two months, I've been seeing ghosts and shadow people, and family members that are dead, and the next thing I know, I'm sick. It's the contact contagion that we're just now getting. Point is, the way they treated this, this is also kind of the origin story of Isaac Luria, exorcistic right, where he said in order to heal the disease, he asked to get rid of the entity. And there's your answer. - To how do you get rid of the entity? - How do you get rid of it? - So there are ways that, and they treated it, to get rid of the entity, it was fumigants, burning things in the house. - I'm sage. - Sage, if you go to the book of Jasher, and others, you, this is another strange thing that just doesn't fit. The idea is not that it's purifying the air. They believe that whatever these beings are, they did not like the smell. And so you would drive off the spirit with the smell, and then by driving off the spirit, the autoimmune disease would leave as well. I get the fact, and obviously there are talisman and there are, you know, claiming the divine name, the name of Jesus, or your shoe on that, all of that played a role in the mind, in the ancient mind, at least. Point being is, it's fascinating to me that thousands of years removed were in 2026 now. We should be more evolved, right? Well, they didn't know anything. Turns out they did. Turns out they did. And they were doing their best to document that self-same contact contagion. The way they did it, it's the exact same thing we're dealing with now. It's brain-of-fugal, brain-of-fugal said, okay? Is there a way to combat this? And he mentioned prayer. So what this is doing though, and this gets back into disclosure. I'm not, again, people can say I'm trying to frame this religiously. No, I'm not. I'm literally just using scholarship. I'm referring to Joanne Skurlock and others who write about this extensively. The end game, though, is that these are, it's not, okay, it's not an autoimmune disease. It's the spirit of autoimmune disease, right? But does the name of Christ is that an effect of repellent, is prayer and effect of death? - I know people, yeah. I've had success in that. I know others who had as well. Now, the name of Jesus is not, and I say this, it's not that the name of Jesus is powerful. Sometimes it just doesn't work. Now, people will confuse me. I've seen a thing, oh, Gillis says, and I'm not saying that the name of Jesus, the power, I'm not saying it at all. What I'm saying, though, is it would be a lot like, you know, saying that to an animal. Right, what are we really dealing with here? So, those are ways to combat. At least that was their ways to combat. Now, the other way, and this is equally fascinating, is they would go in an order to get rid of one spirit, they would appeal to a more powerful spirit. - But some status. - Yeah, so that's when they would build altars and make sacrifices and say, okay, I need you to, and that's really what we're dealing with at least, some of it, but it does appear to be some from a spirit contact, and the problem, though, is, again, we don't know the architecture here. You go into Jacker Nand in this case, he's just a neighbor named Suzanne, and the phenomenon seemingly was localized in Jackie's house. Now, admittedly, it tried to hang Jeff Weecraft, it was scratching people, pushing them, attacking people, but it did not stay there. It went on into the neighborhood, and then further, and further and further. And that's why I was saying, yeah, like some of the interfaces may be tailored for us in terms of what it looks like, but the experience may be tailored for someone else. And that's when you get into what's called Neuropera's cytology, where it acts like it attacks the plasma Gandhi, a fungus, where you think you're the host, you are the temporary host in a way, where the phenomenon will hitch hike on you in order to get to someone else. And so you are the delivery system of that. And that's why I believe that as many, I get it. There's a lot of people that are big CE fibers. - There's a close encounters of the fifth kind. - Yeah, yeah, where I want to go out there, I want to see it. - People go out into the desert, and they'll basically conjure UFOs. He's in like, - Always so fascinating because you have this, and it is really funny to me. One group says, we're not praying, we're summoning. One group says, we're not summoning, we're praying. I watch that, it's so funny to me, 'cause I'm like, okay, you guys can argue amongst yourself. I'm just watching. - It's a weird one because I know people that are, otherwise just, they're not involved in the community at all. They're just homies of mine that work in music or entertainment. And they've gone out and done it. And they're like, yeah, it works. And they come back and they're like, Word you I saw you a phone. I'm like what do you mean? They're like I saw like an orb in the sky I was moving around and then I went away. Yeah, that's like there's a lot I think some of it was spirit airlines too, you know What do you mean? It was a spirit it was spirit airlines. Yeah, you think it's a airplane. Yeah, that's what I mean It's a plane over there, buddy. That's funny. So You know, so and I look I'm not denying the existence of the phenomenon that would be ignorant of me I just I do not try we don't know its intentions What kind of phenomenon would come back home to your family and Terrorize them and then people go away thinking, okay, it's just trying to raise my awareness. There's billions of ways To do that. Mm-hmm without terrorizing my disabled child. Yeah, that's a read and in many ways is a ridiculous notion because I don't think the data Says that There are better ways to can we bring up some skeptical takes that maybe the healthy skeptics are thinking Yeah, man, cuz I know they're out there and I I'm to a degree. I am to so I believe it is something so like Certain cases where we're talking about autoimmune to autoimmune issues, right? Is it possible that we're mixing correlation and causality like is it possible someone has an autoimmune illness that also in some way can affect their Brain to where they're now experiencing things or feeling things or having dreams about things that are Correlated with their illness or perhaps there's mold in the house that causes you know some type of a psychoactive kind of effect, but also creates an autoimmune effect so to agree yeah And that is possible. I just I don't know of a mold that would be like, hey, let's you don't go, but you don't know. Yeah, yeah And that's that's what's so disturbing about it is that It wasn't just limited. Okay, take that case and point it Let's say that Jay Stratton's family lived in a moldy house. Mm-hmm Jay Stratton's Schoolmates didn't Mm-hmm, and they were also experiencing the phenomenon. Mm-hmm. So again, it's transmissibility is a problem and I'm not saying again that That because we know the ancient mind and documented this stuff that they knew what to do with it. I didn't want to say that at all Right, or that we should go out there and fumigate our houses because we have a spirit I'm not saying that either what I am saying though is that by all measures so that it appears to be that same intelligence and And it's sure there are skeptical takes to it. I just don't believe you know I just I look at this and I think okay, what could produce? Not just it's not an auditorium hallucination. It's not some kind of dream scape It's physical manifestations Multiple people that had nothing like people that were never at at skin walker never never with a Stratton family They just went to school with them. Are there a neighbor? Right and then I wonder sometimes about things like the case We're looking at I forget the family's name for the fifth time We've had a lot of families up there with the knives in the walls. Oh Mafa the Mafa case So like the first thing that thing is like a gas leak. Yeah, like I'm sure you've heard theories about this before There's a famous reddit reddit post could you put look up gas leak reddit posts? It's like pretty famous on reddit but it's a the case of a guy posting and he's saying like hey guys I'm finding like weird sticky notes in my house telling me to do things Yeah, and it's like kind of regular things, but it's like call my friend that I haven't talked to in 10 years or it's like you know Like fix the TV and the TV's not broken. It's just like stuff like that He's like it's a weird sort of to-do list of stuff that I'm like needing to do and one of the commas was like check for a gas leak Yeah, and that And then he eventually went and like commented was like whoever said that saved my life. You're exactly right I had a gas leak and it was causing me to Basically like sleepwalk and that he was in the state where he was like waking up and doing things and then going back to sleep Completely unaware that he was doing things. And so I wonder with some of these cases is it possible that people are Doing things completely unaware maybe even by the effect of like medication Where they're doing things that they themselves are doing that they're unaware of which is equally scary Don't be wrong. That's a very different experience Yeah, but then I wonder like is there it's some type of room for that If I think of there buddy, I think of that Shane Gillis thing where he's sleepwalk. Remember that. Yeah, that's where he's yeah, yes So I'm with you on that and it goes back to your point about the M&K's where they were independent witnesses that validated Verify the encounter the morphic case to not begin at that hub Mm-hmm that that main house it began at a rental where the The guy one of the guys had a collection of Major League Baseball memorabilia and they were bobble heads Part of the collection and they had this wall link shelf all the bobble heads are on there and the cleaning ladies clean And she looks up and all the bobble heads are boom backwards. Hmm So it originated out of there. So it's like, okay, so she she reported that then they had another tenet who Left the house unexpectedly just disappeared and Then when they got a whole of me said, okay as anybody died in there and that's when they kind of put two together and then boom next thing You know It's actually it's fascinating because I didn't really mention this for for some reason I'm probably my ADHD, but There was a Santa Rian ritual performed so what happened was because you watched you read the article where I think it was the mother law and a father law both had heart failure and the the one the cleaning ladies loved loved loved loved mother Law and so she performed a Santa Rian ritual and it was either botched or successful one of the two but an orb manifested You know those good angels Sorry Manifested and then it was from that moment next thing you know all hell broke loose not just in that house In most all the houses that they were renting and it meant it lost them money, you know But I'm I agree with you. I sympathize with your point where it's like okay How many people can validate this who didn't already have that background and have that presupposition going into it But it did happen in the mouth in case to it's wild right and then I guess like even some of the you know We talk about Paris psychology like there's an element of that that is the psychology part and so you know There's part of me again as sort of like the believing side and it's like okay Maybe there's a sort of an interdimensional kind of consciousness thing happening here where it's like these things again I'm not like a big believer in like extra terrestrials from another planet flying over here I'm kind of if I'm gonna pick a side I'm like leaning more to the side of like this interdimensional kind of consciousness thing You like you know wherever you go and you're on mushrooms like kind of that sort of space So that's kind of where I lean with that so I'm like okay on the one side you have the psychology component where Maybe there's a way that it can interface with your consciousness We're talking about fear and how it feeds off fear and the more you're afraid of it the more you believe it and Part of me goes like all right Well, is it also possible? It's the case that the more you are afraid of something the more you're perceptive of this thing Appearing within you that you've sort of manifested out of your own fear, right? Yeah, you know like the Edgar Gore the topa that kind of like you're familiar with like the perception test like people have done This where they're like okay look around the room and look for everything red yeah, and you look around the room and then you say Okay, what did you see those green and they go? Oh, I don't know. Yeah, it's like that. It's like that moment you buy a like a not that you did Like a cherry red like dodge ram. Yeah Exactly the burning my hub frequency illusion and so I wonder if it's like okay I'm terrified of seeing this thing. I'm terrified of seeing this thing or I really want to see this thing and then both of which Belief right relief plays a role, and so it's that belief and then is it possible that with that exceptional belief that all of a sudden You start to notice things or maybe you're about to go to sleep and you hear something Yeah, and if you were otherwise unaware of this and maybe you wouldn't have heard it They wonder if some of these cases can be summarized with a little bit of certain that they some of them could be could be I That again the topa aspect of the Edgar Gore part. I think it does play a role People often get confused though because they think that Because we have the ability to co-create the interface what they wear You know like I said, well some people have predispositions to something or presupposition They'll have a world view and then the entity will just go through there and okay What's the cultural costume and they'll fit it over we become co-creators of that like I said you observe it It will fix its form and we have to have a way of kind of creating this we were to cover that seem the drain Point though is people kind of get really lost the sauce here because it's like They think that because we have the ability to co-create its interface That we co-create its form that we are somehow responsible for its function Mm-hmm, and I know researchers that have got caught up on that to their own demise because then you have Experiences who were like okay. Yes. I believe you know. I help co-create the archetyper. I know or like you know Because it wanted to look like a deceased loved one. I helped it pick that image out of my mind But just because I did that does not mean that I deserve to be assaulted by it. Mm-hmm Right or that I created it entirely there we go that somehow because I helped author its form on responsible for its function, ludicrous, ludicrous, and I've heard researchers do that, but what ends up happening is you have somebody who's like, they said, "I remember reading on social media," like, "No, you can't tell me that." What they end up doing is, like I said before, they just, "Oh, well, you made an agreement before you were born." I said, "Well, how do you know that, but I don't?" So they get that kind of conflated, and it is burdensome, so I want to make sure there's more. Sure, I mentioned. And I've also kind of heard this with like, you did more like alien kind of UFO phenomenon gray specifically, but I've heard people posit the idea that perhaps there was a connection with childhood trauma, specifically like childhood sexual abuse, and that people have made the claim that perhaps there's some type of distorted memory or connection, and I find that people that have these experiences typically begin having them young. Like, it's pretty rare, I guess, that someone's like, "I was 30 years old, I had nothing to do with this, and also in bang, I'm having this crazy sort of apparition, this crazy experience." I mean, maybe perhaps like with some poltergeist stuff, but like for most of the people within like UFO alien community that I talked to, they'll say like, "Well, things ramped up when I was in my 20s, but the first one I remember I was seven years old." I was eight years old. It's right around like kind of this age of consciousness, this age of reason, so to speak. And I wonder if there's some connection with that, and I brought this up with a few people with sort of interesting answers, but the theory kind of goes like such where you experience something traumatic as a child. Maybe it's childhood abuse, maybe it's violent, maybe it's sexual and some capacity, and your brain as a coping mechanism develops a shield or a mask for it to kind of disassociate. It's itself disassociating where I suffer, but I do not. Yeah, so I, my father, my uncle, my baseball coach did something horrible to me. But, the brain's mechanism to protect itself is to say actually that didn't happen to me from this person, it actually happened from this other sort of malevolent entity that I can sort of push all of my anger and pain towards, and that it actually happened from that. And this probing is sort of a mask for sexual abuse, or this abduction is a mask for not feeling safe and in the protection of my home or on the people that protect me. And it kind of becomes this warp sort of memory. And then sometimes they go through regression and then through regression, again, it's difficult to really have perfect confidence in the substance of the regressive sort of hypnotic memories. And so I wonder if there's elements of that that could be explained in some of these cases where there's just kind of a, again, I don't want to say a misremembering because I think that's unfair to claim it in that way. But perhaps a disassociated memory, how do I help people with like DID? Yes, I understand. I don't know the sort of where, typically I guess in my understanding, again, I'm not a psychologist, but from a men's childhood trauma, there is a compartmentalization of their identity. And so the creating these altars in their mind, like alternate people to say that me as person A, actually didn't experience this trauma as person B that experienced this. And it's a forward protecting themselves. Yes. And I will kind of, I'll take that one out, man, and say this that there's also possibility that people, and I'm not denying that, that is, there probably are many cases like that. Unfortunately, that has occurred and they're like, well, I just chalk it out to a demon or an alien or whatever. I think there are also cases where people have suffered so dramatically from some of these beings where they also create alternate scenarios in their mind to where it wasn't as bad or that wasn't what they were intending to do. They were trying to do something else, but it was me or something. And I do think that even getting back to your point where there are people that completely shut down where they have no memory of it, like I'll never forget one case. It was Todd Seese who told us why if he's a hunter and he lives out in the country and he tells us why if he's that kind of, I'm going to get up early, get on my four-wheeler and go down, check the deer chart, check my, what they're called, trail cams, yeah. And he's like, I want to make sure we've got some footage and some activity because I want to go hunting, deer stands too, that's what it was. And he's like, so I'll be back before noon or something and he never came back and they found him. They found him in one of the other farmers, I guess, one of the farmers around there saw a craft hovering in the area that he usually hunted in and something going into the craft. So they found Todd's body and they did an autopsy and he had a lot of hematomas on his brain to the point where whatever he went through, it was busting the blood vessels in his brain to where it just couldn't take it. And so what was his death classified? His name was Todd Seese. Todd Seese, yeah. I don't know how to pronounce it, I don't spell it the last day, but to my memory, I think it was, and this has been dismissed and debunked by his family, but they tried to pass it off. It was like some cocaine overdose or something and everybody laughed at it, it was like not Todd. The thing that found I did snake with him too. Uh, it was rules as cocaine toxicity, 39-year-old Pennsylvania Mayor goes missing 12 after writing his ATV to scout for deer bodies recovered 2 days later in a dense part of the brush. Look at authorities ruled the death as an accidental overdose despite the official findings, the case to enter its widespread speculation due to the several unusual details. The case became heavily associated with urban legend and alien abduction theories because local residents report seeing a dish shape object over the mountains at the time that he does appear. Yeah, because. Can you scroll down a touch more? Researchers reported he was found and his underwear looked emaciated and bore an expression of terror. Also found a dead snake, I think, with him. There's so many avenues of research and the stuff, and I'm the point now where I take everything into consideration and I'm not denying the existence of benevolent beings, and I'm not even, because some people can't straw me in my position while the familial cells are not aliens. I'm not saying that there are no aliens, I'm simply saying that whatever we're dealing with is incredibly deceptive and in many ways it's self-serving. And a lot of this, and I'll get crucified for this, it cannot be quantified, simply demonic. There's something, and I've said this since I began my career because I first, I first got my feet wet with Inky by literature, and I realized, if there are limits, accretions, that's corporeal. There's a body there and people say, "Well Nathaniel, we're not talking about fallen angels, we're not demons, we're talking about consciousness, we're talking about disembodied consciousness." That's not disembodied, so there's something else going on. That's where I'm at, and again, I'm not saying I'm correct, I'm saying that I'm just the researcher that's trying to understand this and get better questions to ask. Yeah. Okay. Before we wrap up, Christos, you have a couple things that Rhett of Post I was talking about. Can you pull it up real quick? So this is the ghastly Rhett of Post that I was referencing. Okay. Post a note left in an apartment on Rhett from 11 years ago and says this, okay, it says on the 15th of April, I found a yellow post note in handwriting that wasn't mine. One of my desk reminded me to do some errands that I had to do that I told literally no and about. It was pretty odd. I chalked up to something maybe I did at my sleep, maybe I'm half awake. On the 19th, I find another Post it on the back of my desk chair at the same handwriting as the previous note telling me to make sure I save my documents. I was freaked out. There was no other son of break-in, so I set up a webcam in my house, aimed at my desk, and used his security camera to record it. On the 28th, I woke up to find another Post this one saying, "Our landlord isn't letting me talk to you, but it's important we do." I mainly checked the webcam folder on my computer and found nothing from the night before, but my computer's recycling bin had been emptied, which I'm certain I did not do recently, indicating someone had noticed the webcam and deleted the files. Can you scroll a little bit and then click read more. They were saved straight to a folder on the desk tab called Webcam. On the 1st of May, I found another Post Note this time on the outside of my door, nothing written on it. There also appear to be Post Notes and many other doors in the apartment complex, all blank, all various colors. Do I have legal recourse here? I have no proof except the Post Notes, but the writing in pen, the writing by my pen on the Post Notes, so conceivably I could have faked them, would contain the police getting in trouble. Should I consult my landlord? Those also live in the complex. What do I do? Scroll down. It says, "I pulled up a letter I received from my landlord back when I moved in, and the handwriting is identical. Could it count as evidence?" Scroll down. Oh, what is this? Is this the explanation of that post? It says, "The original Post had a stalker intruder. The user suffered severe headaches, confusion, and extreme memory loss. A carbon monoxide detector eventually showed a dangerous reading of 100 ppm in the apartment. The gas caused memory blackouts and illusions, meaning that the user was writing the notes to themselves and completely forgot it." Can you go back to the original Post and go to the comments really fast? So I believe the top comment here was like, "You seem sincere. It's possible your landlord's leaving notes, but it doesn't really make sense. It's likely you're writing the notes to yourself, but you're forgetting. you use post notes as reminders of an any of the parts of your job or life. Could be a physical problem you mentioned. Is there a carbon monoxide leak in the building at cheap CO2 conductor can detect it? And then scroll down. I think he answers this question a little more. I have really bad headaches. I actually already do have a CO2 detector. I guess I should probably take care of it and check it out. And then there was a addendum to the comment that the person wrote right above it if you scroll up. He said, "I had CO2 poisoning and thought my landlord was stalking me." So this is one of the cases where I'm like, if this guy never does CO2 detector, he'd be like, dude, I'm having severe bodily issues. I'm having severe headaches and I feel awful. Also, I'm seeing these weird notes and these signs going on. And then if you were to move out of the house 'cause he's like, oh, there's something haunting me then he would move out and be like, that shit was crazy, all my symptoms went away. It was pretty weird. So I wonder if some subset of these cases that we're talking about, if one percent of them can be explained like this. And perhaps maybe this should be the first step. If you're having weird experiences, like get a CO2 detector. Check that you're not. Maybe a CO detector, I guess it's technically what we're talking about. But not exactly. I'm not exactly. Yeah, exactly. So you gotta check for CO. Don't get CO2. You're gonna find a lot of it. You're gonna find a lot. I can sense it. Yeah, you get the CO detector, check that out. Maybe like, I don't know, go to a psychologist and get that checked out. And then from there, if it's still going on, maybe then you gotta consult the big dogs. Absolutely. Now Nathaniel, this has been absolutely wonderful. I really appreciate the time. Working to get people to find you. You can find me on eggs. I'm back on. Not to say I enjoy it. I'm on Instagram, Nathaniel Gillis. You can also subscribe to my platform, Paris Symposia. You can also follow Steve and I, Steve Mera, Me or A. We have a weekly show called The NHI Discussions where we just brainstorm kind of like what we did tonight. Hell yeah. Appreciate having me on, man. Thank you so much, brother. Let's do it again soon.