Did Miami Solve Their Biggest Problem? Mavs Building Around Flagg & Questions For Wolves

(upbeat music) - Hello, welcome to Whoop Collective Podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Monday morning. I guess it's still morning, more almost afternoon, as we've moved through the off season. Joining me from Dallas, Texas is Ben McMahon. - Howdy partners. - No longer joining us from Dallas, Texas is Clay Thompson, McMahon. - He is out. - Yeah, I bought a house here with Meg the Stallion last year and, the relationship in the last. I don't know who's got the house, but Clay is back to a place where he can, I don't know, can you, I think he can take the boat to work in Miami, can you not? - Can, listen man, like this was an all time record, early podcast for Storytime, presented by SoFi. Get your money right. - It's really not my story. It's Tracey McGrady's story that he told me about when the heat tried to sign him for, you know, remember the year that the Grand Hill and Tim Duncan were free agents and there was that crazy year. The magic ended up getting Tracey McGrady and Grand Hill. Well, Pat Riley was trying to make that deal happen. And so when McGrady went on his recruiting visit to Miami, he took him over to Alonzo Morning's house. Alonzo Morning had a house on the, on the bay. I don't think it was on the ocean. I think it was on the bay or the intercoastal, whatever you call it there. I think further up north it's called the intercoastal, but it's Biscay and Bay down in Miami. And so they hung out at Morning's house in Riley, the way the story I think goes, if I don't have 100% right, feel free to correct. - Listen, you never got at 100% right on these stories, but that's part of the fun. - I know, so I think Riley like went away, like dropped him off and they were hung out and they were talking about playing for the heat. You know, Morning has always been a closer for the heat. Even when he left and came back, he was the guy that they brought to the LeBron meeting in Cleveland, where he like got, you know, the story goes he got into tears talking about what the Miami heated meant to him in his career. He was retired by that, but so Morning was sort of like their closer with contracts. So apparently when it was, you know, I'm a greedy thought that was over, but they weren't going out the front. They went out the back and there was this speed boat there. And the speed boat pulls out and goes flying down Biscayne Bay past American Airlines Arena, as it was known there, like past all the star island and all the Miami mansions on there, like, you know, glory, I'm sure it was a glorious Miami day in July and all the way down to Riley's house, which he sold years ago, but it was an incredible estate that he called Casa Riley. It was like this, you know, amazing, you know, Bayfront estate. He lives, I think in a apartment complex now. I mean, like the penthouse, but so Riley was been waiting for him. Like, there's your tour of Miami, buddy. And, you know, had the contract offer. Anti-mech pick the magic because he was from the Orlando area. But yes, you definitely clay, definitely would have the option. There's a dot, you know, like a little, I'm making fun of my lack of nautical knowledge, a port. Like the port's the wrong word, but there's a hookup. You can pull right next to Casaia Center. - Oh, Captain Clay, baby, he's back. - Yeah, he can go right, I mean, that, I mean, it's not even like ceremonial. Like I remember, it's like one of the big days in Miami every year is the Marathon day. And it would be on a Sunday. And like when LeBron was playing there, like they would always, it was like a Sunday, like in February. And there was ABC afternoon games. So like I remember one time, the way for the television crew, the television crew stayed at a hotel on Key Biscayne. I'm sorry, a brickal key, which the hotel has now been imploded. That's a different story, but you can look it up. They'd stay on that hotel. And the traffic was so bad in downtown Miami to get to the arena that they thought that there was no way you can get there by car for this noon tip off or 12, 30 tip off. I think it was against the bulls if I remember correctly. And so Derek rose in the bulls. And that was like a big rivalry game back then. And so the way that Mike Breen and Doris Burke and Jeff and Gundy and Mark Jackson got to the arena, they sent a boat to pick up the hotel. You know, it had to happen, McMahon, like that's what they couldn't get down Biscayne Boulevard. - Yeah, do what you've got to do. Are you, have you returned to a boat since the great spill? - I did, I did. So the rib survived, stayed on your feet. - This is not a setup. You didn't know this. I am currently nursing a wound on my knee. It gets gotten better from a boat. My wife was very, so look, like three, four years ago, I fell on a boat in the Bahamas and cracked her rib. I still am appreciative by the way to the Lakers medical staff who gave me an X-ray, like a couple of days later, because I was in a lot of pain. So it was, we were just recently in Italy and we were going on a boat. My wife was petrified, because McMahon, not only was it, on that particular occasion, I was literally on the dock, getting onto the boat and I slipped and fell into a pole, like the mast or whatever. In this case, and that was embarrassing enough. But in this case, to get to the boat we were taking, and by the way, I have gone on numerous boats since then. It wasn't like, you know, but. - Don't feel self-conscious. - This boat, you had to take a boat to get to the boat. - Okay. - So there was multiple different, so you were on it, you were going on a yacht. - No, it wasn't a yacht, it was a nice little boat. Anyway, that boat was too big to pull up to the dock that we were leaving in Italy. And so I had to get a boat, there was so many different transfers from the dock to the launch to the main boat. And I navigated all that just fine, but when I went swimming on the boat, McMahon, as I was getting back up onto the boat, I slipped and suffered a knee injury, which was quite bloody. - Oh, Lordy. - So yeah. - That's okay, I'm still getting better. It's like three weeks removed. - I almost chopped my big left toe off, putting a pool lounge chair together. Dropped it on my toe and it was squirting blood. That was a wild bag for some of me. - Clay, I'm sure, has no such problems getting on and off his boat. - Oh no, Clay smooth as can be. - Where the same boat go, did the same boat go from San Francisco to Texas, or did he have a different boat in Dallas on the lake? - I don't think he ever brought a boat to the lakes down here. I think he wanted a rented boat. - I'm almost certain, his boat. I think he took it down to LA. - Okay. - As you remember, there was the game where they played the lakeers as the front end of a back-to-back. And then he was ruled out the next morning. And then sometime in the afternoon, he went from out to in. He was out on the official entry report and then they changed, it was like Africa whatever, like a restaurant or whatever. And then what happened was he went out on the water, jumped in the water. He was with his co-captan at the time. - May, you know, jumping up. - That's the thing, I'm not on, we may be way out of line. We may be way behind this all may have been taking care of on the internet. But as I recall, his boat was called the SS Stallion. - He did. I mean, I don't know what happened to the SS Stallion. - This is when he went out and took a ride on the Stallion gal wet. Beside he was ready to go and came out and had 23 points. Actually, one of his best games in America's uniform, that next night, but look man, to get back to the basketball side of things, - Yes, please, let's do. - Clearly, things did not go clays way in Dallas. He signed up for one situation and ended up very soon in a completely different one. He signed up to get spoon-fed wide open threes by arguably the best creator in the league. And then they went and traded Luke a dodge itch, right? And so if Clay would have known, they were gonna trade Luca midway through his first season of a three-year deal, he would have gone elsewhere. They didn't know he was gonna trade Luca to the Lakers. He would have signed with the Lakers, who offered him more money. - Well, I don't remember what the Lakers offered him, but if you remember, I think the Warriors offered him two years and 48 million, so 24 a year. - That was as an extension if I recall correctly. - Correct, yes, I mean, I don't, maybe not at the very end, but he had that option, he turned that down. And then the Maverick signed him for three and 50. - Yeah, three for like 51. And look, this deal with the heat is, it works out to two for about 11 and a half. - Let's go over the money in a second. But I mean, just to finish your thought about how this didn't work out the way that Mavericks or Clay thought so. - Again, he was coming in to hopefully be the final piece on a team that was arguing with him. or he felt, they felt, a shooter away from being able to give the Celtics a real series in the finals. And then the most inexplicable trade and NBA history changed everything. Yeah, he's shot 39% the last two years in Dels. Yeah. And, you know, he's just, at this point in his career, he's a shooting specialist. He used to be an amazing, like Hall of Fame, two-way win. He used to be one of the best wing defenders in a league, as well as one of the best shooters in NBA history. And a guy who could do a little bit off the dribble and, you know, whatever, he can't, he can't do anything off the dribble anymore. You know, he's, you got to protect him defensively now, and instead of being a guy who you can put on the other team's best perimeter score. But the heat are as desperate for shooting, as in his can or is for attention. Oh, no. And so like it, like clay on a, you know, low cost, relatively low cost deal does make sense for Miami because he can still catch and shoot. He's still got a quick release. He's still a guy who you're sure not going to leave him alone out on the wing or in the corner. Yeah. So last year, he made the transition to being a bench player. That was a, that was a bit of a clunky thing that had to happen. So not only was he not playing with Luke, he was no longer starting, which needed to happen in his career. It did. And, and honestly, I thought it might be an issue. He handled it like a total pro like clay. He was a total pro in Dallas. Now could he get a little moody or whatever, depending on shots far and I, sure. He didn't gripe. He didn't bitch. He didn't moan about coming off the bench. He understood it was a rebuild, he kind of poured himself into trying to be like a good vet for Cooper flag. Nobody in Dallas can complain about the way Clay conducts himself. That's for sure. All right. So let's talk a little bit about. So here's the thing. The Mavericks were sitting around with Clay Thompson at 17. What was his number? 17 and a half. 17.5 million. They had 16 guaranteed roster, guys on the roster. So they, at some point, the Mavericks were going to have to offload a player. Yeah. It's actually 15 guaranteed plus the mousa cc, which isn't a guarantee, but like he needs to be on the roster. Right. They, they matched mousa cc's offer sheet. So at some point, the Mavericks did have to move off of a little player. However, I don't think, I mean, they had other options than then Clay. And they've obviously talked about trades with other guys, but none of that stuff is materialized. Well, one of the things, and this is, you know, this, I'm sure, is annoying to veteran players. But one of the things that when you talk to executives is, you know, when they evaluate contracts, they say, well, on the last year of the deal, that'll at least be a big expiring. And you know, when you look at the Mavericks this year, you know, they have some guys on expiring contracts, like, for example, like sent to yaldama, but they're not, they don't want to trade him. And you know, they have some of the other guys they have, like Marcus Sass or smaller numbers. There was a, there was a real, you know, interesting, I guess theoretically Zachary Risha Shea is an expiring contract right now, but I'm sure they're going to pick up his option. I can't see them not picking up his option. But they were sitting around, you know, and having a $17 million expiring contract, you know, even if it's all sheet your Hall of Famer and Clay Thompson, it's not the worst way to go about your season, your planning. And so there was, you know, well, it was clear that Clay was interested in leaving. And it was also clear that that's what the heat were waiting for, the heat were sitting there with multiple open roster spots with guys that they, you know, Demard de Rose was interested in going there, they've got this backup center, Nick Richards, who I think might end up going there. There's these guys sort of waiting around, their heat were waiting because they wanted Clay. And you know, but it was a question of, you know, would the Mavericks do a deal because there were, you know, in addition to having them on the roster and having a guy who can hit a bunch of threes, which is not nothing, he had certain benefits. Or who collected podcast after this. So McMahon, this was a real negotiation. And we know as a negotiation because of how much money Clay gave up. Yeah, I mean, I believe my scottos, the first report, he gave them $9.8 million and look at typical buyout in the NBA is the guy gives up what he's getting, right? He gave up significantly more than his getting from my also 9.8. I don't know for sure, I can tell you, go ahead, go on, well, you, the number 9.8. So this is according to Bobby Marx numbers, that gets the Mavericks to where they are $12.1 million under the tax. Now, why is that number important? They have their non-tax payer mid-level, which is $12.04. So basically, instead of having Clay's $17.5 million as an expiring, they save a bunch of, they get out of the tax and they basically have opened up to where their mid-level exception, their fullman or I'm sorry, the non-tax payer mid-level exception can function as a trade exception. Right, because your mid-level exception, just to be clear, for years, it was just something you could use to sign a player or multiple players, you could break it up into pieces. In the current CBA, you can now use it as a trade exception. You can now use that mid-level as to take in players. And that was clearly the threshold because 9.8 million isn't just, it's kind of a random number. How much do you give up 5 million? How much do you give up 7 million? The Mavericks clearly wanted that 9.8 million-dollar number. That was because it enables them to have that full mid-level to use. Right. And for the Mavericks to, you know, to buy them out, they had to benefit from it. They had to help them as they're trying to put together. Right. And it's not just about saving the month. I mean, certainly anybody will take free $10 million savings. But there was specifically something the Mavericks were holding the line on, and it was to get to that number. Okay. That's number one. And so for Clay, it also was worth $4 plus million to basically put himself in a position where he felt like, yeah, let's take the full 360-degree view of it. So the heat signed him to a two-year deal worth about 11.5 million. The first year of this deal is 5.6 million, I believe. And so the thing about it is, like if he were going from another team, like, let's say, the Lakers to the heat, you could say, well, there's no-state income tax in Florida. And, you know, it's actually admitted. In this case, it's a straight $4 million give-up because there's no-state income tax in Texas. So Clay really wanted to get out of it. And the reason that the, you know, the heat did something somewhat interesting. So after they acquired Yas Tenakumpo, they were sitting there with Andrew Wiggins on a, on a player option. And one of the things that I and a lot of other people thought that they would do is that they would get Wiggins to bypass that player option and negotiate a brand new multi-year contract that took his salary down in the first year of the deal to enable them some more maneuvering. A salary this year is 28 million. So I was like, well, I could opt out of that and they could negotiate downward. The heat did something pretty interesting. And it just, just shows you that they're pretty, they're pretty savvy to heat. The front-off snows what it's doing. Right. So they, I say to that back, his salary this year is 30 million. It was 20, last year. It's 30 million this year. So the heat told Wiggins, go ahead and pick up that contract option. And he did for 30 million and then they gave him a new two-year extension on top of that for 34 million. So what that means is that Wiggins contract is going to fall way down after this year. In fact, let me get the exact numbers what it's going to be. 16.15 and 17.32. So his contract goes in half basically year over year. Why would they do that? Like man, I think it's because if the heat had more room under the apron than they could get into, they would have to be moved into bidding wars with players. If they only have a certain amount of money, they only have a certain amount of money. Like listen, you want to come play in Miami? We've only got five million to give you. That's what we have. We're not, you know, we're not trying to negotiate. So, and look, it works. Clay Thompson wanted to be in Miami. He liked the idea of playing on that team and the role that they had. And to do what he was willing to take a haircut, listen, Clay wants to get good looks at threes in high volume on a team that has a chance to contend. That's when he left Golden State, that's exactly what he was looking for. That's why he came to Dallas. And if the team, and if the place isn't in a place where there's nice boating options [BLANK_AUDIO] even better. And that's obviously that the part of the equation here is listen. There are certain franchises that in these kind of situations, there are always going to be attractive. And at the top of that list is that the lakeers and the heat. Well, look, I'm just going to say this that Andrew Wiggins and Clay Thompson at one point were on under contract for like $48 million combined this year. Okay. Now, granted next year's a player option on clay, I have no idea what will happen. But the heat of now got them into a situation where they've got them this year for 35 million. So they've already they've already maneuvered nicely there. And then next year Wiggins and Thompson are potentially under contract for $23.24 million. 42. 22 math. I am. And so when you've got y'all sitting at Cumpo and bam at a bio combining to earn like $110 million next year, 100 and maybe even more than that. The way that you and this is this is reality for all teams. You've got to find ways on the margins. And this is the heat trying to work on the margins. And they've added two legitimate high volume three point shooters this summer. Exactly. Like in by the way, Hardaway and Thompson. And they got harder way for for six million. So so so look at this. When after the honest trade happened, people were saying they've got to get shooting. They've got to get shooting. Well, Clay made 202 threes last year. Clay played 69 games last year. He made 202 three pointers. Tim Hardaway played 80 games last year. May 224 three pointers. I have no idea how many games are going to play this season. They're both in their 30s. I have no idea how many threes they're going to hit. But these two guys combined hit 227 three pointers last year, 226 three pointers last year. And the heat got them for $11 million million or $12 million combined. That's just good business. You know, and if you're if you're going to have BAM and Yannis, how do you get out of that? And also I'll point out, you know, the Wiggins thing. Wiggins had a very good three point shooting season last year. Wiggins. Let me see here 40 41 percent. I believe that's his career. I he made 138 three pointer. So between the three of them. And again, this is last year not playing together. They were playing on three different teams. I'm not saying they're going to get this same amount. But but last year between the three of them, it made 564 threes. So I don't think you can say that the heat have a problem with three point shooting anymore. Now that's it's got to play out. Yeah. And and Fontequio is a solid three point shooter. Davey on Mitchell wasn't a high volume three point shot. He shot it well last year. You know, he Mitchell of those guys. He's the one right. I do think that teams will still kind of live with him getting these. He shot 40 percent. But he only took three again. So you're playing your baby 90 for the season. And and honestly, you know, and then some of it like they're young guys that they hope become big time players for him. Nicole Yovic shot at 27 percent. That's that's not great. Well, Yovic is one of these guys. 32 percent. This is why I could never work in a front office because you loved his contract when he signed it. No, not the contract. I loved him as a player. I watched him play in the 2023 World Cup for this for Serbia. And he was awesome. And I loved everything he did. And if I worked for a team, I would have run back to my GM and said, you've got to get Nicola Yovic. Get him at all costs. And they haven't been able to, they signed with that contact extension and they haven't been able to play him basically. You know, he's 23 years old. It's it's it's not like it's it's it's time to put his grades stone up or anything. But no, of course, it's just yeah. And and notice they did this honest deal. And the bucks pretty much had their pick of anybody on the roster who wasn't named Bam at a bio. And and they ended up, you know, they didn't do that deal. You know, he wasn't in the deal. Yeah. And listen, the mavics didn't want to trade clay for him. You know, I like the the contract's not not looking good now. But again, he's 23 years old. But him and Larsson are both at this point, not threats from three point range. But they they added a bunch of veteran shooting. Body Portus Jr. is is a he's a three point threat for sure. I think the shooting is, you know, getting your account on older guys, stay healthy and all that kind of stuff. And hopefully with some of these guys to not further decline. But the shooting they've addressed the biggest concern now. I think on the roster's probably actually playmaking. I agree. I agree. You know, Yannis is is for a powerful or is obviously an elite playmaker. But Davey on Mitchell's not a playman. They don't have a lot of playmaking outside of Yannis at this point. Let's sort of assess where Miami is on their roster. And then we'll do Dallas a little bit to here. So Miami now with this deal, they have $5 million under the first apron. And they are hard capped at the first apron because they traded out, they traded for more money than they sent out in the Yannis deal. So they're, you know, they're they're they're hard capped at it. There's a bunch of different things that trigger hard capping the first apron. And this is one of them. And so they've got two roster spots left and they've got $5 million total. That's all they can spend. And that's one of the reasons why they had to get clay, you know, you know, until they signed play, they had three roster spots left. Now they have to fill one. You don't you can leave the 15th open and the heat may end up leaving the 15th open for a while just to see what happens. They have been attached to Nick Richards who has, you know, the 3rd string center wouldn't surprise me if he, you know, he'll go there sort of on the minimum. But I do think that they will be looking because, you know, um, you know, the other guy, the sort of the other guard they had we haven't talked about other than Larson is Drew Smith, who's a point guard, but he's more of a combo guard. And so you're right. I do think that Miami will be on the lookout for for ball handling. And it may not happen in in October. Like, they may just be on the lookout for somebody who springs forward during the year, which is why the 15th roster spot may either be left open or a straight non-guarantee. So the other thing I want to just point out just because we know it'll be a topic of conversation. For example, like, there's still, there's still players becoming contract extension eligible. I think by next week, you'll start to see Steph Curry's name come up because starting on the 29th of August, he's extension eligible for his contract. Um, I have argued that it's possible that, uh, or it should be at least considered. And I'm sure it is being considered that Clay not sign and or that Steph not sign his contract extension right now. Um, of course, if he wants to sign his contract extension right now, he can get two years and I think 140 million. Obviously, if that's what he says he wants, you're going to give it to him. But if he doesn't sign his contract extension right now, the warriors could have over a hundred million dollars in salary cap space next summer because he, Jimmy Butler and Dremont are all in the last years of their contracts and Chris Huffsport's Angus deal is not fully guaranteed. And it's not that I'm thinking the Steph's going to take a LeBron deal, but you're going to get the contract whenever you want it. Why not leave optionality open? Um, but anyway, that we will talk about in the coming days. Um, uh, Yannis doesn't become contract extension eligible until January 6th. Um, and so he can sign for three years and 214 million. If he opts into the player option, he's got for next year. And so that's one way to go. If he declines the option and does a whole new deal, which, you know, if that's what he wants to do, the heater, probably not going to fight him on it. It's four years and 275, McMahon. Let me do the math on that. That's, that's way above my, my ability. It's, it's almost 78 years. 69 a year. That's a nice contract. Bobby says that he, if he actually picks up the option and then signs for three more seasons, he can get a hair more money. So he, he may actually do that, but, um, uh, whether or not, whether the heat try to get some maneuvering on that'll be interesting to see how that goes, but just should just be known that Yannis's extension, which the reason he said he was, you know, cool with going to the heat was that the intent of signing an extension. And when the heat traded all that stuff to get him, the intent is to exile him to an extension. Just know that it can't happen till January. Yeah, the intent to sign an extension, but also the reason that is cool to go in the heat because he felt like it was possible to contend there. And, you know, then you get into the conversation of, do you, do you max out on what you can make or do you, as we've seen with Brunson, as we've seen with women Yama work with the franchise where, uh, you know, you leave some kind of flexibility. It'd be interesting. Well, we'll just say that plays out, but it's, it's months away from now. And, um, and I will say this, like the, the, the sheet may not win all their games. They, some of these moves may backfire whatever. Um, you know, they may have plans that go awry, they may be counting on guys who don't deliver. I can go on and on. The, uh, the unknowns of basketball. But one thing I will tell you with certain team, McMahon is no one's going to outthink to Miami Heat. The execution might not happen, but it won't be because they're outthought they've spent the last several years plotting to get a superstar who would give them a chance to put a contender around them and they pulled that off with the honest, so they've pulled off the hardest part and there's worked to be and they'll be an interesting team this year. I don't, I don't see them being a bonafide contender, maybe I'll be wrong, maybe they'll surprise me. Um, obviously a lot of that that frankly depends on this. John has played 62 games, does he play 75, like I don't know, um, but they, there's at least hope for the heat of being a relevant team in the playoff picture again. And that hadn't been the case for, for handful of years. Right. Okay. Now let's take a look at the Mavericks after this has happened. You mentioned that the Mavericks have 12 million of their mid-level exception. They also have 12 million below the luxury tax. It's fascinating how that all lined up with this, with this buyout, but their roster is full. Um, there's two players I'm looking forward to when you go to Mavericks media day that we get updates on. One is obviously Kyrie who's, um, boy, he's going to be 18, 19 months off of his torn ACL at the start of training camp. Yeah. March 24 and you know, look, this one of those deals where if the Mavericks were a competitive team last year, I think Kyrie probably would have come back late in the season. They weren't. So it made no sense for anybody for a Kyrie to come back. But he's been, you know, he's been going full-go this summer. And he should be ready to, uh, I don't know. I can't sit here and tell you if there will be rust or not. But I think you get help Kyrie Irving. Yeah. Um, the other is Derek Lively, who has had unfortunate series of foot injuries and was to shut down early last season and has been out nine or 10 months coming off of a foot surgery. And look, the Mavericks have a bunch of big men, including Santiago Dama, who they traded for this off season. Um, uh, but Lively was a significant force in their finals team. And, um, you know, how he looks, you know, he was a super athlete, big man. And, you know, we don't like any bigs with foot problems, but especially a guy whose, whose whole game is predicated on his quickness. So Lively can make life and leap in ability, correct. So also seeing where Lively is, you know, maybe not on day one of the season, but what his prognosis is is also relatively important to the maps. Yeah. You would love to be able to pencil in 22 year old Derek Lively as a long term piece of the foundation you've ever seen his potential, not just potentially seen his production and his impact, unfortunately, like at this point, it's, it's very much a, uh, a weight and sea. You can hope, but you can't bank, uh, on Lively as he's going into the final year of his rookie deal. Yeah. So the thing about Dallas, the question you ask yourself is, are they done, you know, are they done? They obviously have made a couple of significant moves with Miss IU, Jerry, um, I mean, to find done done for, are they done for the off season? Yeah. And, yeah, probably just because of how late it is, but you never say never and obviously this roster is very much, uh, a work in progress. What they did this summer, they, you know, it was a lot of singles this summer. Well, they, they extended Najee Marshall as well. Next to Najee Marshall, they traded for Aldama using the, uh, an exception from the AD deal. You know, they traded for resaw shea, I forgot exactly what that, uh, exception came from, uh, they traded for, uh, Marcus Sass or on another exception. You know, these are all singles like the resaw shea thing. It's a single that maybe, you know, you hope it maybe you can leg that thing out and get a double out of it. It's a, it's obviously an upside play, uh, for a guy who was a number one pick, uh, tough to be the number one pick. Same with between Wimbledon Yum and Flag. With that, you know, that's what he was, um, you know, there's a reason the hops were willing to, uh, part with him for a couple seasons, but, you know, six foot 10 has some potential there. But this is, like, nothing about the, about the Mavericks is about next season. This is about trying to build long term around a kid who's still 19 years old in Cooper flag. Right. The question isn't so much about whether the Mavericks are done between now and, uh, October 1st. It's where will the Mavericks be between now and February 1st, both with, it's a weird roster. Um, yeah, there's, like, this is a roster. There's, there's not a lot of playmaking on. I mean, Kyrie is like really, he's more of a, he's a two guard. He's obviously an elite ball handler, but he's more of a two guard than a point guard, he'll be your point guard, Cooper flag is kind of a point forward those, those share a lot of that. And Haji Marshall can handle some of that, but, you know, not a lot of, of playmaking, uh, outside of that, you know, they got this kid coming in, search a Dale Ray. I hope you're working. We'll see. It traded Ryan Nim Hard, uh, in that research, a deal, um, which is really the, the Lou Dordeele, uh, to the hawks. And then honestly, they've got a ton of power for, yeah, they drafted a, they have a lottery pick. Big man. More is Johnson. Yeah. And I wonder, I'm curious to see, is he getting more time at center than power forward? I've been, you know, we'll see. I think some of that's probably going to depend on the lives of these health and availability, um, Daniel Gafford's health and availability. Well, here's, here's the thing about the Mavericks, they're, they're kind of dealing with three different situations here. There's like three different sort of wings of, or not wings because that's the wrong word. There's three different sort of branches, branches because you have the, the remnants of the team was in the finals that was being built around Luca. So, you know, that's lively. That's PJ Washington, right? That's, uh, Daniel Gafford, Daniel Gafford, Kyrie, Kyrie, oh my god, Kyrie, all right. And then you have the fact that they, you know, lightning bolt get Cooper flag. So you have, you know, now the new mandate, which is now you build around him and those two things don't really go together all the time. Certain players are going to fit together. But, and then you have the fact that you've now changed over your front office and now you have Missa Yuziri in there completely flipped the front office completely flipped the coaching staff. Right. Exactly. Didn't even get into that. You flipped the whole new coaching staff. It's almost like four whole different branches. So if you're a rival front office and that's why you've heard Gafford's name and you have heard PJ Washington's name and trades, there's very likely a chance that there's going to be further, total, further, further retrofitting. And so if you're a team out there, you're watching this situation closely. You're watching Kyrie and even Najee, Najee's extension was, I, he's still trade eligible this season. I didn't even know that. You're interested in kicking it. Yeah. I mean, I don't think Najee will be traded. I do think that they signed the extension with the intent to keep them, but they left wiggle room with that. That was a pretty fascinating little Friday deal there with Clay Thompson. More hoop collective podcast after this. Also at the end of last week, I don't know if you knew, McMahon, but we have another new owner, how many, like, this is the new thing, the franchise flip, like the, the NBA franchise are, they're like little fixer uppers, you know, and, and this was a bigger profit in terms of valuation than even the Lakers. Okay. So, yes. So it depends on your, it depends on your definition of the word flip because a flip is something where you're like, I'm going to get it fixed up and immediately sell it. That was not what Mark Walter was trying to do. I see the people, I see, I've seen people say, like, Oh, what great business by Mark Walter. He had him for a year and he made two billion profit. No, it was not good business. He was selling because he needed the money regardless of how that comes out. It's funny. Like, you think of like Bill Chisholm, who was the controlling owner of the Celtics. He's like, he's racking up seniority, I'm telling you, he's like, I've been, I've been the owner for a whole year and a half, like, Mark Laurie has been more time fighting for the right to be the wolves owner than it is actual wolves owner. Right. Okay. So here's the thing. So, Mark Laurie, who's a friend of the pot, came on our podcast in Las Vegas, sold the team. So, all right. Here's the thing about the timber wolves. The timber wolves were sold and then they were sold in pieces. The bankers call it tranches, make man, they were sold in tranches and dancing language. And between when the wolves were agreed to be sold and when they actually were sold after a battle and arbitration, that wasn't really a court battle because that implies you're in front of a judge. It was a battle of arbitration. By the time From the beginning of it to the end of it, it became an outrageously good deal for Mark Laurie and Alex Rodriguez. And really the controlling owner was Mark Laurie. Alex Rodriguez was his partner, but it was mostly Laurie's money. He also had several big partners in it, like Michael Bloomberg, for example, SkyArch Schmidt, who was made a bunch of money with Google. But by the time the day that they won that arbitration and were able to get the team, they had some of the best, it was one of the best equity moves in league history. And what I say by equity is, when Glenn Taylor agreed to sell the team, he agreed to 1.5 billion. Three plus years later, the team was worth over four. From the day they set, the day that they agreed to the deal, he had hundreds of millions of dollars in equity. I believe his own personal stake and the team itself had billions of dollars in equity. He was crazy. The thing about Glenn Taylor, Glenn Taylor tried to sell the wolves in about 2012, announced that he had an owner to come in, a guy who was a part owner of the Grizzlies, and I think he was going to sell the team back then for about 400 million, give or take. Maybe it was 300 million. And then that deal fell apart, long story short, that deal fell apart. And then he said, you know what, I'm not going to sell it. Not that deal gone through, he made three or four hundred million dollars and been happy in whatever. But because that deal fell apart, he held them for another decade, and he tripled his money again. And still went out kicking the screaming. Exactly. And then if he just held it for three more years, he would have tripled his money again. So anyway, but also this is why I'm sorry, I never cry for the owner who's got to pay a big tax bill. Or like if you can't afford it, sell the team, you'll make a massive profit. Right. So this is the where the nuance comes in. The nuance is that year to year, you don't realize the gains and year to year as teams lose money. And their owner has to write gigantic checks and it typically happens in August. And August is when you have to pay your tax bill and stuff and they can look you square in the eye and say, I'm dying here, I'm losing tens of millions. That is a true statement. But of course, their holding is gaining a bunch of value. But if they never sell, and if they don't sell for 30 years, you know, like if you look at the longest standing owners, the longest standing owner, if you know who it is, by the way, little, little trivia time, longest standing owner, that's good. I don't off top of my head out, Mickey Harrison. Harrison, his father, he, he inherited the team when his father died in 1995. So that's, you know, 31 years. That's a long time. Rindsdorf. He is second. Rindsdorf, don't got control of the bulls in 1985. This gentleman and his brother bought the Indiana Pacers in 1983, Herb Sign. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Brother Mel. His brother Mel's passed away for a long time. Herb is in his 90s. He looks, looks pretty good. We just saw, you know, he was there for all the stuff in the, in the, in the, in the finals a couple years ago. So but when you look at it, like, you look at like Rick Schnall and Gabe Plocken who bought the Hornets back in 2023, there's been like five, six team sales since then. The Lakers have been sold twice. Yes. I mean, you know, I mean, even going back to like not only like the Lakers have been sold twice, the Celtics have been sold like not just teams being sold like flagship franchise. Correct. Correct. So anyway, um, among the, so Mark Laurie had to raise money to, um, to finish that purchase for 1.5 billion. And he took on some partners. One of them was Michael Bloomberg. One of them was, um, was Eric Schmidt, as I said, and one of them was this gentleman who's from the Bay Area, hedge fund guy Mark Stodd and Mark is now taking over as controlling owner at a 4.5 billion dollar valuation, which I don't know exactly like, I don't know what that means in terms of what kind of money he actually had to give up here, like how much of a percent did he have to buy from Laurie to become the controlling owner? Right. We don't know yet. Um, you know, and I don't even 100% know how big Laurie's stake was. But Laurie didn't make $3 billion, but he absolutely, whatever he, and if he, if he had $100 invested, he's getting back to, you know, for every $100 invested, he's getting probably back about $3.50. He made a hand some profit and he still has a sliver of the franchise. And here's the thing. Over the last couple of years, the timber wolves have been losing enormous sums of money. And let's be honest, if not for the trailblazers, there'd have been a lot of talk about how cheap the timber wolves were with some of the chatter around the league. While cheap is relative because the wolves have lost a ton of money, um, they have paid a ton of luxury tax the last couple of years and some catering bills, whether they like to or not. Right. Well, the, the, here's the problem that the wolves are in, um, uh, so the wolves, and this is what I would say to, and I have said to people in Portland, um, you have to be careful about doing a limited renovation of an arena, okay? Because certainly there are arenas that have been renovated that are in great condition, um, that extended their life and everything like that. But the target center got a renovation about five years ago and it went from being a bottom five arena to being a bottom five arena. I was wondering how much of an upgrade you were going to give. And, um, uh, and I mean, it's not a dump. Don't, don't get me wrong, but just the, the bones of it don't, they don't have the, this is very hoodie, toy, toy talk, but they don't have the, uh, ability to have the amenities that are common for NBA franchises, right? And so, um, they have, they paid a lot, they lost a lot of mine the last couple of years, paid a ton in tax and they're not really in position to squeeze more money out of their own order of their arena because they just had a publicly supported arena renovation a couple of years ago. And so the only way you're getting a totally new arena situation is probably if you pay for it yourself. That was hard to get that and if you remember the Minnesota, uh, Vikings, um, had to basically threaten to, you know, to move the team before they got funding for their stadium and their stadium is hosted super balls and final fours and stuff like that. And so it's a bit, it's a bit of a challenging, it's a challenging economic situation, um, the, uh, the, uh, the wolves, uh, and so I think Lori is flipping out of it. But what I, all that, you know, all that stuff is, is fine for, you know, uh, you know, forums at a sports business conference. What does it mean in the near term? Well, what it could, the question that you have for Mark Stodd is, um, you know, and we don't have the answer to this yet, McMahon, uh, is he, how willing is he to continue paying the luxury tax because the wolves were an organization that for decades didn't pay the tax and they didn't pay the tax for a reason because they're market. The roster as of now, um, without a starting power forward on it, which I don't know if they can fix that or not, uh, but right now they're set to pay $25.5 million in taxes here. What did you have in for the last two years? Do you have that up? Uh, I do not. I'm okay. I'll find out. But it's, they paid tens of millions of dollars the last couple of years in taxes and from what I understand, lost tens of millions of dollars, they were totally soaked in red. And look, here's the, here's the thing. Ant Edwards is do a contract extension. He's eligible for an extension next summer. So it's a very important year, um, additionally, Tim Connelly, their general manager who really held, I mean, Ant Edwards drove the, the turn around of the team, but Tim Connelly put the pieces in place to have this team have a couple of two or three of its best years of his franchise history. The first big win of the Lori A. Rod Arrow was getting Tim Connelly. Correct. That was a huge thing for them. They paid him, uh, him very aggressively for it. Um, so here's the thing about Tim Connelly. He is in the last year of his contract. If he wanted to, I'm sure you could sign an extension. He is not signed to the extension. Here's the other thing. And Connelly was brought on board. He was given something called phantom equity, um, he was basically, like, given a stake in the team, but it didn't, um, uh, he didn't actually get, um, he didn't actually get shares with the team. the equivalent of shares in the team that if he can completed his contract, he would get a giant bonus. That bonus is in the five figures, and it is not 10 million, okay? It's a very, it's a very sizable bonus. And he gets, he vests and gets that bonus at the end of this season. So he is highly incentivized to work out this contract. He is not necessarily highly incentivized to sign an extension. And so there are two people that the wolves have to worry about, keeping Tim Connolly because he's been so important, and then make, and then, you know, that's second to keeping Ann Edwards. And there are a team that has traded away draft capital, and they're really going heavy, they went heavy in on Lamello Ball. So they need the Lamello Ball and Edwards partnership to work. They need, you know, their investment in Jaden McDaniels and Rudy Gobert to work. They need Ann Edwards to resign next year. And that was the whole point, that, and making room to sign A, it was the whole point of the maneuver and they did this summer. You know, it was, hey, let's keep Ann happy and wanting to play with Lamello Ball. That's what they went on, got Lamello Ball. So actions over words, Mark Laurie's pops out. So, you know, it's going to be a very high stakes year for the wolves and their future after this year is uncertain and the owner's sold. - Yeah, and the Lamello trade caused the vultures to stop circling over the target center, hoping to pounce on Ann, but they still know they're out. They still know how to get there. - Right. - So, you know, it's a significant thing, you know, I mean, I think from a business standpoint, nobody could blame Laurie for selling. - I mean, it's really amazing. The guy was able to buy the controlling share of an NBA franchise at a discount rate on layaway. And then-- - Yeah, not just at a discount rate, but a discount rate on layaway. - Yeah, and then make three times profit. - Not only that, but when he got control of the team, had their two best years of their franchise. - Yeah, that's a great timing. - He would probably say, yeah, and I wrote tens of millions and checks, you know, to pay for it all. But, you know, yeah, and so now he's selling it. But like the fact that they have this, these headwinds, is that a politically correct word? Can I say they have headwinds coming? - You can say whatever you want. - They have headwinds ahead. Doesn't mean you can't navigate them, but there's headwinds coming. - Well, there's headwinds coming in, and for all the reasons we laid out, and then also the goal is to be on the level with the thunder and the spurs. And that's going to be tough to do, and that's true for the wolves and every other team in the Western Conference. You know, we've talked about the Nuggets, the Lakers. You can go on down the list. - Let me address something about that. So, over the last few days, there was a Twitter account, X account, that announced that the wolves are very soon going to move to the Eastern Conference, and it's going to be great. And we're just not going to have to do a Victor Wemba Nyama. That trickled into my world when like producers at ESPN were like, are the wolves going to be at the Eastern Conference in the next eight minutes? You know, because it was a completely irresponsible post. - My guy, who nobody's ever seen in person. - So let me just clear this up. If the NBA expands, and if the NBA expands for two teams, which both things I would say are probable slash likely, but are not asserted yet. If that happens, there will be a need to move one team. And oh, by the way, if it's also Vegas in Seattle, which actually they've already said it's Vegas in Seattle. So, the NBA will need to move one team to the Eastern Conference. If they even remain in a 16, 16, 16 conference alignment, like who's to say they're even 100% gonna go with conferences on each side. If if, but if that does happen and they go with a 16 team east and a 16 team west, there would be three teams, you know, logically that could want to move east and know the three teams that are on the Mississippi River. Minnesota, Memphis and New Orleans. Now, if you have a map, and you can see Minnesota's proximity to a bunch of Eastern teams like Chicago, Milwaukee, Indiana, Detroit, Cleveland, et cetera, et cetera, it does make a lot of sense for it to be Minnesota that would move. But I promise you, Memphis and New Orleans would also be very interested in doing that because of the historic East First West in balance. But, and maybe that could happen. But by the way, we're at least two years away from expansion. So, they gotta find out whether Ann Edwards is resigning. So, yes, after all that, there is a pathway that exists for the Timberwolves to potentially be an Eastern Conference team. But there's a lot to happen between now and then and a lot more things to worry about about trying to be Wemba Nyama 4 out of 7. So, I just want to clear that up because that was out there. And it could end up being correct. Like, you know, three years from now, that individual could say, "Hey, I told you three years it goes bad." I have to scoop. But like, this one was like, Ann Edwards just got it made, you know, thumbs up. Like, here we go. And by the way, I believe the champion of the league came out of East last year too. I also have been being told that the Eastern Conference is better than the West this year. It's people are, although I've been told that numerous times over the years. But, yes, nothing is a guarantee. So, that's all. - No, there's a guarantee, there's a guarantee that there will be some kind of social media activity that really ruffles your feathers every single week. - That's true, probably every single day, although not so much in August. Now, the social media activity today is the head or the starting quarterback for the Cleveland Browns. - Oh, man, that's hell of a situation. You get in your hometown. - Yeah. Either way, either way, they're gonna stick. So, it's great for people in our business. For talk radio, people in our business 'cause it's a tremendous thing. But I don't think it's gonna affect the final record. So, all right, McMahon, thank you very much for this enlightening conversation about the Mavericks and the heat and the Timberalls. - Thank you very much, Wendy. - Thank you, thank you to Miles. Hope you do well on golf this week. - I'm playing in a couple of hours, so here. I played absolutely dreadfully in Scotland two weeks ago. - Sorry to hear that. - I had holes where I lost three balls on one hole. That happened twice. And then I played on Sunday. And I played maybe my best round of the year. I didn't lose a ball back here in Omaha. - How hot is it in Omaha right now? - No, it's glorious. It's in the mids 90s. Mid 80s, it's like 108 ballast right now. - You can have it. You can have it chill down there. - It's a record performance for your post injury. Oh, good, good question, Jackson. - The injury was not a, I mean, it was all post injury, but it was not affecting my golf game. It was, there was, I think, between the years. It was affecting my golf game. - I was a little worried when you used a headwinds reference considering our nautical mishaps. - Yes, I, what do you want me to say? I mean, you know what? - Well, I was about to get ahead of ourselves. - At least it didn't require a trip to medical, to see medical professionals. It required, you know, neo-sporin, which is kind of hard to acquire in Europe. - And what they gave me didn't quite look like the same product, but, and band aids. So. - I'm just gonna say this. I believe that we're gonna see each other during the preseason. - Yeah. - And there is a nautical excursion that I'm gonna try to talk you guys into. - Oh, really? - Yes. We can discuss further later. - All right, I'm gonna stay tuned for that. All right, thank you to Mark and Miles and Jackson for putting it together. Thank you for listening and watching. The hoop collective. We'll talk to you later this week. - Adios, amigos. (upbeat music)