diapers.com: Marc Lore. The ecommerce visionary who lost to Amazon but still made billions (2021)

[MUSIC] Hey, it's Guy here. So this week we're revisiting my conversation with Mark Laurie, the founder of diapers.com and jet.com. It is an incredible story. You will learn so much in this episode. Anyway, Mark is now working on a new business called Wonder. It's a high tech, food delivery concept. And back in 2024, he joined me on the advice line podcast. And he talked about some of the challenges and changes that Wonder is facing. So if you want to hear more about that, you can scroll back in your queue. But for now, let's hear how it all began with Mark's earliest business and diapers.com. Here's our conversation from May of 2021. Enjoy. [MUSIC] In the early days, believe it or not, we'd actually go to the wholesale clubs. So BJ's, Sam's Club, and we would buy the diapers. And you were just paying full price for these diapers? Full price, no discount. Didn't you got to mark it up on the website? So why would somebody buy them from you on the website? We didn't mark them up. You didn't mark them up? No, we just lost more money. So you were basically losing money to make it more convenient for people to get diapers? As one investor like to say, let me get this straight. So you're selling a dollar for 90 cents? [MUSIC] Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. [MUSIC] I'm Guy Raazan on the show today. How Mark Laurie took an idea, guaranteed to lose him money, selling diapers online, built an e-commerce giant sold it to Amazon. And then, went head-to-head with them by building an even bigger business, Jet.com. [MUSIC] Lots of stories we've told on the show are about consumer brands that succeeded, not by creating something entirely new, but by taking something old or unremarkable, in selling it more cheaply or efficiently or seamlessly than others. Michael Dubin took the frustrating experience of buying men's razors at the drug store, and turned it into an easier and less expensive one by creating Dollar Shave Club. Same story with Warby Parker and Framebridge. These companies offered their customers pretty much the same type of glasses and the same type of picture frames you could buy anywhere else, and just figured out how to make them easier and cheaper and even slightly cooler to buy online. And that basically is what Mark Laurie wanted to do with one of the most essential products ever invented, diapers. He wanted to sell them online, easily, cheaply, and effortlessly, except that unlike glasses, or razors, or picture frames, the margins on diapers, sock. In fact, diapers are a lost leader. Most stores that sell them don't make money on them. They make money by getting you into the store to buy other things, baby wipes, pacifiers, clothing, strollers, and more. And Mark Laurie believed that he could pretty much do the same thing, except without the costs of a brick and mortar operation. So in 2005, he launched diapers.com with a partner. And by 2010, his company became the biggest seller of baby products on the internet, which was great, but it also caught the attention of one notable and powerful competitor. And that competitor, yes, it was Amazon, would end up acquiring diapers.com for nearly half a billion dollars, which as you will hear, was not a happy moment in Mark Laurie's career. So a few years later, he started another e-commerce site, a retailer that went head-to-head with Amazon, and Mark called it Jek.com, a business that would eventually be acquired by Walmart for around $3 billion. As a kid, Mark Laurie grew up in New Jersey. His dad ran a computer consulting business, and his mom was a personal trainer and a bodybuilder. So that's kind of fun. I was probably a junior in high school going to my mom's bodybuilding competitions. But she did well. She won a couple competitions and things. It was fun, but really inspirational as a kid. I bet. Yeah. My mom's a bodybuilder. There's my mom. My ripped mom. She said, "Keep your butt." She used to squat like 350 pounds, which she was like 110 pounds. That's insane. I know. I read that. When you were in middle school, you got into different businesses and stuff. And you started selling baseball cards in high school. Did you make money? Were you good at buying cards for sheep and selling them for more expensive? I would say we did okay. I did it with very close friends, Lachchandra. Big part of the business was grunt work. We would buy cases of baseball cards that weren't sorted. Then we would basically sort them into full sets and then sell the sets. The sets were sold at a premium because somebody had to sort them. So we would do that all summer. But also did every possible job a kid could possibly do. Everything from newspapers, recyclables, washing cars, mowing lawns, picking weeds, anything to make a buck. Yeah. How were you at school as a kid? Were you good in school? No, I wasn't good at school. I definitely had some, you know, my parents used to fight all the time. It was rough growing up. I didn't focus on school at all. My parents, I was the first person to go to four-year college. And my parents didn't really know much about school. My mom went back to get her high school diploma. You know, they got married when my dad was 20. She was 19. Had me less than a year later. Yeah. It was, I didn't do homework. I didn't pay attention in class. I was the class clown. I would just didn't take school seriously. And there was no repercussions at all. In fact, when I was a sophomore in high school, I remember somebody asking me, hey, so where are you going to go to college? Are you thinking about college yet? I said, I don't know. I probably just go to Harvard. And they said, Harvard, you can't get in Harvard. What do you mean? And I said, what do you mean, get in? Like, don't you just say where you want to go and then you pay and you go? Like, no, it doesn't work like that. You have to actually get into the school. They have to accept you. This is literally the first time I ever understood it new. Sofmeer in high school that you had to get accepted. And so that was sort of a wake up call. And then junior year, I did start like applying myself and did better. Yeah, it sounds like it wasn't particularly stressed at home that like, you had to do well and make good grades and stuff. Yeah, not at all. But I was mathematically gifted, like gifted in math. When I was a little kid, as a soothing mechanism, you know, I used to count. And then eventually when I got a little bit older, I used to do multiplication problems in my head. And big stuff like that. Yeah, it was just, I guess it was just natural. You ended up going to Bucknell University in Pennsylvania. And I guess on a track and field scholarship, right? Like, that was why you ended up going there because as a kid, you were like a pretty gifted athlete. You were like a high school state champion. Yeah. So it wasn't, they don't give scholarship, but it was what helped me get into that school because I didn't have the grades to get in. But, when I got there, I didn't realize this. But when I got there, the coach sat me down and he said, okay, you know, you basically on academic probation, the day I got there. And they said, you know, you need to like get certain grades to stay on this team. And I said, well, you know, I want to be a decafally, which is 10 events. And he said, no, you're not going to have time to train for that. You need to focus on school if you're going to stay on this team and stay in the school. I'm like, wait a second. I just got here. So that kind of got me fired up. And I told the coach, I said, all right, well, listen, how about this? If I get straight A's first semester, then I'm good, right? Then you'll train me. And he laughed and he told the team. He said, oh, Mark just made me a bet. You know, I got to train him for the decafally to get straight A's. So I was like, okay, fine. And then I got straight A's the first semester. Wow. What did you, what did you, what explains that? Did you, was your class is more interesting when you got to college or the easier or what? It was more just, first of all, was challenged by the coach. And I felt like, you know, I think he thought I was just not smart or something because the way it started off, did you, by the way, did you think you were smart? No. And I knew I was smart. You knew you were smart. Yeah. Because if I ever had to turn it on, once in biology class, I got the lowest score in the class. And it was like a seven or something. I didn't study. It was really embarrassing because he, this teacher, Mr. Arminati, would announce the lowest in the highest score. And it was just really embarrassing. He's like in the lowest score. He would do it in a really condescending way. And everyone laughs. It was just very back. I can imagine doing that today. But anyway, after I got the lowest score, I studied for the next exam. And he announced my name again. But this time it wasn't the lowest scores, the highest score. So it sounds like what drove you was a competitive spirit, right? Like, you wanted if you had to and to prove yourself, you were going to be the best. Yeah. Also, it's just Probably just. based on growing up, my dad was not completely present. And the only way to get my dad's attention was to do something extra ordinary. So it's sort of programming as a young kid, like to associate doing big things with feeling love, basically. I didn't realize that growing up, obviously, it's only with therapy and as an adult, thinking back to that stuff. But that is ultimately where my drive came from. It didn't come from a healthy place. It wasn't healthy, but I've turned it into something more healthy today. - So it sounds like you were a talented track and field athlete, and you studied, I read you studied business in economics. So was it kind of in your mind that, and given that you had some strengths and math that you would go into something around finance out of college, was that in your mind? - Yeah, when I was in middle school, I started reading books, like in seventh grade, I started reading books on derivatives. Like when I came to learning about how to, how derivatives work, I could get into that book and read it covered, a cover, no problem. - That sounds so unbelievably boring. Okay, I can go in. - Yeah, so now I would literally read books on derivatives, any book I can get. So when I graduated from Bucknell, I wanted to get into derivatives, basically. Even though I was very entrepreneurial, I didn't even know that was an option. The idea that you could be an entrepreneur at that time. - So you, I guess you graduated in 1993, in your first job at a school with bankers trust in New York City, and I guess your goal was to work at the trading desk. - That's correct. - Did you enjoy it? I mean, you're in New York City or on your own, your independent, your own apartment, like was it exciting? Or were you always working? What do you remember about that time? - Yeah, no, I loved it. I did enjoy college as much as other people. I was ready to get in the work world, start having a job and make money. I grew up basically a mercenary as I call it. It was growing up in a household with my dad, always talking about making money, and my uncles making money, and going out to Atlantic City, and trying to beat the house at Blackjack, and going to the horse track with my uncles, and trying to make a buck. It was like, everything was about making money. That's what I call mercenary kind of attitude. And when I got into banking, all I wanted to do was make money. I put a sign on my cubicle that said, "Goal, six figures by 26, seven figures by 37, eight figures by 48." - Wow. - And I basically worked as hard as any person could possibly work. I was always the first one in the office to bank the last one to leave. It'd be eight o'clock at night, and ask, what else can I do? - And this is kind of a rapid rise. I read that from '93, 'cause you're just out of college. Through the '90s, you really got some really big promotions. I mean, within seven years, you were like, the head of the risk management division at Sanloa Bank. - Yeah, I was the executive vice president, which was by far the youngest executive vice president. - You were barely 30, or 29 or something, right? - Yeah, I was 28 when I got the job, yeah. So you were just, you were just grind in, and by the way, just to add one more thing. I believe that in 1996, in the midst of all this, I can't even believe I'm, these words better to come out of my mouth. You qualified for the US National Bob Sled Team. - Yeah. (laughing) - Yeah, not a lot of people know that, but yeah, that's true. - So my extensive knowledge of Bob Sledding comes entirely from cool runnings, and I know that they were, I mean, that movie, they were track and field athletes, and that's why they were good at Bob Sledding. - Is that how it works? Like if you're a really good fast runner, like you can become a good Bob Sledder? - If you're not only fast, but explosive legs and speed. So it's sort of like, if you could squat and broad jump and high jump from a standstill. So the way this all happened, I'm gonna tell you the quick. - Yeah, I mean, you're a banker in New York, and you qualify for the US National Bob Sled Team, that's going to the Olympics in 1998. (laughing) - This is, yeah, how does that happen? - Okay, yeah, this is the story of how it happened. So having lunch down at the World Financial Center, and I see that there's a, like Bob Sled track set up, and there's like a tent, basically like five bucks, come down, push the sled, and they'll time you on how fast you push the sled. That was fun and interesting, but more interesting was the thing that said, the fastest time of the week, they'll invite you to the training camp. - Wow. - So the next day, I brought my sneakers, and I pushed the sled, and the guys there were like, "Whoa, that was the fastest we've seen, "and anybody pushed the sled so far." And so it turns out I had the fastest time of the week, and I did get this call, and they said, "Hey, do you wanna come up to Lake Placid?" It's basically like, people get invited up there, and they take a test. Strength, speed, explosiveness, broad jump, high jump, and they scored me, and they said, "Hey, you've got a great score. "This is pretty amazing. "Would you wanna train for the next month "because we have at the end of the month, "there's the tryouts to make the team push the sled?" And I said, "Sure, let me see if I can get a month off from work, "and I got a month off, and I lived up in Lake Placid, "and trained every day for 30 days "on how to push the sled and all kinds of other techniques "and things." - Wow. - And then at the end of the month, they had like the time trials, as he makes the U.S. national team, and they were gonna take 13 people, and I finished 13th. - It's like a movie story, right? It's like that movie working of the year where the kid throws the baseball back, and he's got this amazing arm, and he joins the Chicago Cubs. You know, usually they have a lunch in downtown, and you push the sled. - This was perfect for me. Yeah, I'd still been working out, and but I did when they told me that I was invited to go train at the Lake Placid, it was like a few months from the time they were at the World Financial Center. So at those few months, it basically just pushed cars around. Every day after work, I would go to a parking lot, empty parking lot, pushed cars. - You'd push cars. You'd put the car in neutral and just push it around. - Neutral. - Yeah, basically. - I don't even know where you find an empty parking lot in Manhattan, but you clearly did. - This is in New Jersey. - Gotcha, wow. But I guess ultimately you decided not to take this spot on the team, right? Because you would have basically had to quit your day job to train for the Olympics. I don't have to travel around the world with the team for two years before the Olympics. - And Bob's Lending is not really super lucrative. - And I was driven to make money, remember? I'm a mercenary, so at that point in my career I was a mercenary. - All right, so you're back in New York, not on the Bob's Lending Team. And the story I've read, and I'm sure there are more details to it, it goes something like this. You've got this great career in finance here in your late 20s, but it's just something about, about it's just not fulfilling you. And you are watching all this.com action going on. And you want to get in on it. Like you decide I got to get out of this and get in on this thing. Is that what happened in 2000? - Pretty much. I was watching all that stuff happening. I was making a half a million a year at 28. - Wow. - And at that time I was married and had just had a baby. And I felt this desire to want to be an entrepreneur. Like, you know, I wanted to be a farmer when I was four years old. And I wanted to be that for years. My grandmother would ask me what I wanted to be. And I'd say that and she didn't understand. I used to laugh and I said, but Nan, they grow stuff from nothing. And now I get it, you know, I just wanted to grow stuff. And the other thing that was happening at the same time was I hated the culture in the bank. I hated the way people were treated. - Yeah. - It wasn't very diverse. It was very condescending toward women and it was very harsh. There was no empathy and kindness didn't play a role. And keep in mind, you know, I was kind of torn. So I grew up in this mercenary household. My dad and uncles and stuff. But then because I was, my parents were so young when they had me. My mom used to leave me with her parents, which I called Big Nan and Big Pop. And they were the complete opposite. You know, my grandfather came over from Italy and had a job working on the railroad. And he used to say that he had the best job in the world, lay in railroad times. And it was literally serious. Like he used to say that he was the wealthiest man in the world. And he would count all his grandkids and children as a million bucks. And he was just like the complete opposite and the classic missionary he was driven by a higher purpose. And I was always drawn to that. But each year, I was only in banking for seven years, you know, before I quit. And something was really missing. Something was wrong. I didn't feel fulfilled. And it felt like it seemed like a road to nowhere. So you decide to quit, which is a big deal. I mean, you had a big paying job and to go and start a business with a childhood friend of yours, Vanit Barara. Is that my pronounciation name right? Yep, Vanit. We call him Vinny. But yeah. And was any part of you nervous about doing that? Yeah, also, I had a newborn baby at the time. So yeah, it was, and actually did it with Vinny and Lackchandra. So we were all three of us with best friends and Lackch did the baseball cards with both of my childhood friends. Childhood friends since I was 10 years old. And by the way, what was the enterprise that you were going to do? What was this business idea? This was basically a sports stock market. We used baseball cards as a proxy for the athlete. But it was much more of a stock market than it is anything to do with baseball cards. people would have accounts, they'd have build a portfolio, there was a ticker, there was market makers, there was bid offer spreads, it was meant to be a stock market for sports players. So this is going to be a marketplace for, I just don't fully understand it. I mean, it's just marketplace to sell sports collectibles online, is that a no? No, no, it was, if you imagine a baseball card that you never take delivery of. So it just, it sits there as a proxy for the athletes. So you'd buy the cards, they'd go in your account, the price would go up and then you'd sell them and the money would go in your account and you'd buy and sell and trade. And so actually it felt much more like a stock market. Like we would watch the games and if players did well, the stock would go up, player to bad, the stock would go down and people were trading pretty aggressively during the games. And you raised some money, right? You guys raised like, we raised $5 million all from 60 angel investors. Who really believed in this side? Because I'm just thinking today, if you pitched me that idea, I would be very skeptical. Well, here's the, I think this is going to, this sounds like I'm absolutely crazy when I'll tell you this, but I invested 390,000 in my own money to the company. And you know, the investors, the angel investors said, we're not sure about this idea, but wait, I see here, Mark, you invested 390 grants, a lot of money, you know, not that old. Why 390, why not 400? And my answer was because that's all I had. So I literally had 390,000 in the bank. And I think the investors saw that and they said, wow, this guy's got a lot to lose. Yeah. Now, would I recommend this? No, I wouldn't recommend you take every dollar that you have, but I'll tell you what, if I didn't do that, wouldn't I got the investment of $100,000? No. And we wouldn't have worked either because it really felt like my life was on the line. Alright, so you, and by the way, this is called the pit, right? This was a thing. Yeah. So you get the money and you launch this in 2001. And it's a website. 2000, 2000, 2000, 2000. And it's a website. It looks like a marketplace where the ticker are going across the screen and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's just look, yeah. Exactly. And did you get like some media attention for this and we did. Yeah. And we got a lot of customers. You got a lot of customers. Yeah. We got a lot of people came on there. We're trading. They would send checks for 10, $50,000 and start trading. And how would you guys make money? What was the revenue model? We made money on the bid offer spread and commission. So you launched this thing. You're getting some traction. Was it? Did it show promise? Did it look like it was going to, it was, yeah, it was really working. The first 10 months we were doing about 10 million in transaction revenue. Wow. It was going really good. But then about 10 months in the NASDAQ crash. This is when the monster monster crash. Yeah. That was the beginning of the bubble bursting. Yeah. And you immediately felt the results of that. Yeah. Because we needed to start raising money and it was just ghost town. There was no money. Zero. And so I guess you, because I'm wondering why this happened. But basically 10 months in you sell the business to tops, the baseball card company for 5.7 million, which is not that much more than what you raised. That's right. When believe it or not, everyone got their money back and a little bit more. And they said, you know, it's the best performing investment in their portfolio. That year. Yeah. So everybody get their money back in a little bit of change on top. And tops now, the biggest one of the biggest, maybe the biggest baseball card company in the US owns you. And you go, you and Vinnie become tops employees, right? Yep. And Lacks. Yeah. All three of us. And then Vinnie went on to become the general counsel of tops, Inc. Lacks ran the pit. And I went out to Seattle to run a game company called WizKids, which was acquired by tops as well. And just to be clear, they didn't make computer games, right? WizKids made like physical games that you physical games. Think about like little miniature figurines that have stats and things. Almost like Dungeons and Dragons, but like with miniature figurines. And you would collect the figurines. The figurines were collectible. All right. So you end up working under tops for two years. And you decide that you want to start something new. Is that, is that what happened? Yeah. I was a little bit, it was tough. Like I was probably, after I was there for two years, I'm now 10 years out of school. I'm like 32, 33-ish. I had ambitious goals and dreams for my career and things. And I'm basically one day, I remember I was like after hours, I'm sitting, started getting into this Dungeons and Dragons and sitting around with a bunch of gamers at night. And I'm like at this 20-sided die in my hand. And I'm rolling it. Just thinking, what happened? You know? I was like on top of the world at 28, the fastest to EVP, making all this money. And then here I am at 32, rolling the 20-sided die. You know? It was just, I don't know, it was like surreal. It was like that didn't feel right. The banking didn't feel right, but also didn't feel right. Just run a game company. And you were not going to go back into finance. That was adequate. Definitely not going back into finance now. So I guess around this time, you and Vinnie start talking about doing something new, a new business. And we now know that this would lead to diapers.com. But I understand what was going on. Did you guys start to have conversations like, you know, what could we do? And what opportunities are out in the world? Like how did you even start? What was the conversation? Yeah, I tell you exactly how it started. This is even before talking of Vinnie. But I would just go on Google and search for random words and see how many times they were searched in the search engine. And I remember searching the word diapers. Why? Well, I was doing a lot of diapers at the time. You were changing a lot of diapers yourself. Yeah, I got you. Buying them and changing them. Yeah. But I put lots of words in it. I mean, I don't know, hundreds, maybe a thousand different things. Just getting the brain going. Just looking for what people were searching online. Yeah, just some nugget of like, what are people searching for? Just try to get ideas brainstorming basically. You know, not knowing what you'd find. No idea. But put in the word diapers. I remember it came up 200,000 times in a month. Searched. I'm like, that's really interesting because you can't buy diapers online. Not even Amazon at the time. Could you buy them in 2004? You couldn't buy that. Yeah. Yeah. It might have been 2003, 2004. Somewhere around there, you could not buy diapers at a normal price. They were like prices were like jack to ridiculous levels. It just wasn't a thing. Nobody bought them online. Then I went to Vinnie and I said, hey, Vin, what do you think about this idea of like selling diapers delivered them like overnight to moms and dads at normal, Walmart prices? I think we said Walmart prices and they started to talking it through and thought, yeah, there's something here. When we would ask people though about whether this would work, people that knew it as something, they said that silly idea. There's no way to work because you know that diapers are lost leader for these brick and mortar stores. They drive traffic and so they lose money on them. If you're going to pay for shipping and fulfillment, you'll lose more money. There's no way it can work. Just so I understand, is the reason why diapers didn't nobody wanted to sell them online was because once you paid for shipping, you weren't actually making, you were not going to make money off them. Even if you were able to get great prices from the manufacturers, it would still be hard to. Not even hard as impossible. Because there are lost leaders, so there's very little margin in diapers and yeah, the cost is ship because they're heavy is really expensive. You were definitely going to lose money on diapers. But what I'm trying to say is why are diapers, why do diapers lose money? I mean, everybody who has a kid is going to buy diapers for two to three years. So that seems to me that there's a lot of money to be made there. How is it that that's not the case? It's not the case because all the, the retailers compete for people looking to buy diapers and they'll keep lower in the price. It's a race to the bottom. Basically. I got you. So the retailers are pricing it down just to get people in the door by other stuff. Exactly. But you must have figured this out pretty quickly that you can't make money off diapers. Yeah. So I'm thinking if I'm talking to a friend about a business idea, we're like, all right, we looked at that. Let's go to the next idea. But that didn't happen. What? Why? Because I think we saw the bigger vision, which was wait a second, these things were lost later for a reason. They drive traffic to the store. Yeah. And online, the difference between a brick and mortar and online is online. You can sell so many more things because the unlimited shelf space. So we thought, okay, great. So let's drive people. You know, we're going to lose more money than a brick and mortar doesn't diapers because we have to pay for shipping. But that's okay. We can sell even more products and more high-march and products in stores. So you guys start working on this. And I guess initially, it's not called diapers.com, right? It started off 1-800 diapers because we couldn't afford diapers.com. To me. And you guys, I guess, kind of relocated to New Jersey. We're both of you grew up, right? Yep. In Montclair, New Jersey. Yep. And what did you, I mean, you had to build a website. You had to get inventory. Let's just break this down because building a website in 2004 and server space was really expensive, right? Yeah, we had our own box, physical box. There was no cloud. And you guys put, imagine, you were putting, you put all of your money into this. A lot of it. Yeah. It wasn't 390,000 this time, but it was. And what, like, I guess when you started calling up manufacturers to buy their diapers, it was just like, was everyone just saying, like, this is a bad idea. Like selling diapers online is just crazy. It was crazy. So crazy, I guess, that Proctin Gambling can be a Clark. [Music] two big diaper manufacturers that make pamper and huggies, they refused to sell us diapers. They said they just don't want to waste their time on a business that's never going to work. When we come back at the break, had to turn a big fortune into a small fortune by selling diapers online. And how Mark and Vinnie eventually figured out had to turn things around. Stay with us, you're listening to How I Built This. Hey welcome back to How I Built This, I'm Guy Ross. So it's 2005 and Mark Laurie and his co-founder Vinnie have just launched their website, which at the beginning is called 1-800-Dipers. But as customers start to find out about the site and start to put in orders, manufacturers refuse to sell them any diapers. So the two co-founders have to figure out how to get them. In the early days, believe it or not, we'd actually go to the wholesale clubs. So BJs, Sam's Club, Costco, and we would buy the diapers. What you would go with like a shopping cart and just load it with diapers? At first we'd go with a big shopping cart and then we would make a deal. They would load them up with their pallets. They'd move the pallets and put them on truck. We'd rent like an 18-wheeler would come and they'd put the pallets on the 18-wheeler. And they'd they ever ask, hey what are these diapers for? Now they just they love getting the sales and they were quite happy to sell them. We had a little arrangement where we'd leave them some diapers for their other customers and in return they put them on the truck. And eventually we were clearing out like multiple clubs at a time. Alright so this is, I'm no business genius. But I'm thinking if you buy the diapers for full price, then you got to mark it up on the website so why would somebody buy them from you on the website? You were basically losing money to make it more convenient for people to get diapers. That's what you were doing. You were buying the diaper for let's say a dollar and then to compete against BJ's and Costco you were selling it for 90 cents. Basically, yeah. And paying for the shipping costs? And paying for the shipping and fulfillment and credit card fees. That sounds like a crazy business. I mean I read that within like a year after you launched you did 11 million dollars in revenue but that probably means you were still, because you were losing money. The more revenue we had the more money we lost. That was the problem. So how are you financing the loss before you even raised any outside investment? That was all mean Vinnie. You were just watching your money being burned out of your bank account. And it doesn't sound smart. It doesn't. It sounds nuts. We had a plan. We had a vision. Your vision was it's going to be okay because we're going to figure this out. We just need to get customers first. Yeah, I mean I think the learning, you know, it just, and it still stands today. It's the idea that as long as customers love the service and they're repeating and they give you good marks that you had something. You had something that was valuable. You had a brand and there was lots of ways to solve the economics is what we thought and felt. How many people did you were you able to hire before you got outside capital? At 11 million in sales it was basically just me and Vinnie and we hired another woman to like help us with customer care and some of the fulfillment. But we got up to 11 million in sales with two people, three people basically. It was really hard. And you were still only selling diapers, right? In the first couple years? We were selling diapers, wipes and baby formula and some other things but yeah. All right. I guess in 2006 you were able to raise some money, the $4 million in venture funding and you started to get around that time, Prattron Gamble, Kimberly Clark and a few others agreed to start directly selling to you. The only reason why they did by the way is because we changed the rules with the wholesale club. You know, we used to leave them some diapers and then we said, you know, what, what happens if we take all the diapers? We said, well, you don't have to load the truck but we're taking all the diapers and they're like, well, well, well, you can't do that. I'm like, I think we can. We're just like any other customer and he's like, well, yeah, I guess you can. I guess you can. But then we said, hey, the only but is please, please call your Prattron Gamble and Kimberly Clark, you know, rep and tell them to just sell us to rack and then we're, rather your hair won't take all the diapers. And very soon they did that and we got a call from Prattron Gamble and Prattron almost said, hey, we're doing a favor basically for a very important customer of ours who would like us to sell you. We don't believe in your business model. Nothing's changing our side, but we're going to sell you. Alright, so by 2007, this is now about two years, two and a half years after this idea really launches, you become diapers.com. You buy that domain name and you become diapers.com. What was the pitch to your investors? Did you say to them, like what was the vision you laid out for them? Was it like going to be an everything baby store? It was going to be your one stop shop for all things baby strollers and car seats and everything. That was what you were saying. Maybe clothes and everything. Yep. And I guess while you were in finance, there was a guy that you had worked with named Lev Borodovsky, is that right? Yes. Yeah. And he was like a genius or it is maybe it's like a PhD in nuclear physics, is that right? Yeah. And I guess you kind of recruited him to help you figure out a way to make your business more efficient because he was like such a smart guy. What did he figure out? How was he going to make the business more efficient? Well, there's a little technicality on how you figure the price of shipping. Mostly it's based on weight, but at some point if the box is big and it's not that heavy, you'll get charged for the actual queue of the box instead of the weight. The dimensions, not the weight. The dimensions, yeah, the dimensions instead of the weight. So we noticed that there was still a lot of empty space in every box. We put diapers, we put formula, we put baby food, whatever. And then you look at what percentage of the box with those products actually taken up, it was like maybe like 40%. And so we thought, what if we had 20, 30 different box sizes and we could build what we called box them was basically a way to figure out exactly what box certain items can fit in. So you pick the box as soon as you knew the items and what configuration they need to be packed in the box to fit. So the idea was if we can be super efficient with the way we package things and then how we ship them, we actually might be able to make money even off diapers. Nope. No. But I knew that you couldn't. Yes. But. But you could make money because the way shipping works is if you're shipping a box of diapers to someone and you have empty space in that box, the marginal cost to ship the next thing you put in the box is very, very small, very low. Like it might be you put something that weighs a pound into that same box and might cost you 10 cents of incremental shipping. So the margin on the margins was great. That means you had to encourage consumers to buy more for every order. Is that right? That's exactly right. Yeah. Buy more stuff. Buy baby clothes. Yeah. Buy pacifiers. So how did you do that? I think we just built a really good user experience online. We had everything that mom and dad could possibly want for their baby. They were all first party. So we didn't have a third party. Sellers like everything was hand picked by us. We had all the products that moms would want and we organized it in a really convenient way. Everything was covered. How were you getting the other stuff, the clothing and the other products? Was it where retailers coming to you and saying, "Hey, no." No. Once again, much harder than you possibly could imagine trying to convince retailers to sell your product. I had no idea. I was never in retail. But we had to fight really hard to get manufacturers to sell us products. One thing I'm wondering about, because I'm trying to put myself in your shoes, right? And our listeners know, and anyone who knows me, is that I have a probably more anxiety than you do, but maybe you do too and you just kind of hide it better. But I would be worried if I was like in my mid 30s and I was like watching all my money go down the tubes. Like I would be nervous about me. I'd be nervous about the people who came to work for me and whether they were going to have jobs and they'd depend on me and their families depend on me. Yeah. At a seven-year-old, at a four-year-old, and I had all my family and friends invested in the business, losing money every day. And I just always thought, "What do we need to figure out? What do we need to do? What's the problem? What's the next hurdle? What do we have to do?" And that was motivating me. It was sort of like a challenge. We always came down to like, "Are we going to be able to make payroll?" So it's never been easy. It sounds like it didn't get that horrible sick feeling in your stomach. about that possibility. Maybe the way you're wired, it just enabled you to kind of feel like it's gonna be okay. - Yeah, I like to talk about this sixth gear because that's the only thing I can say is that I didn't know it at the time. I was working in banking, working really hard, working really long hours, but I never got out of fourth gear. It's only when you have your life on the line and you can't afford to lose, can you find the sixth gear? And when you're in that sixth gear, at least for me, it's like out of body experience. It is like you don't have time to worry, think, be anxious, just have time to do. - I think what's so fascinating to me about everything I've been reading about diapers.com is, it was like multi-pronged, your strategy was multi-pronged. It was like, okay, we're gonna, diapers will be the entry point, we'll sell a bunch of stuff, and then we'll be super efficient, we'll be really efficient, and that's where we'll make our money. We'll squeeze this, get rid of any waste. We'll put warehouses in very targeted specific places. I read that you had warehouses in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, sparks Nevada, and La Nexa, Kansas, 'cause those were the most efficient and strategic locations to enable you to save money. - Yeah, we had to have every cost advantage we could find. But the vision was even bigger than just selling everything for that mom's and dad's would want for baby. It was, we're gonna sell parents everything. So we launched another website that was wag.com for pets and soap.com for household supplies, yeah. - beautybars.com, which was makeup and cosmetics, right? - Yep, yo-yo.com is toys, cost.com was home. We had like 10 websites. - And this is where you kind of started to operate under the parent name, Quincy. - Yeah, Quincy, we changed the corporate name to Quincy, but we wanted to keep the specialty stores because we felt that was sort of the magic as opposed to just a mass merchant where you sold everything. But we had one shared shopping cart. So you can shop on diapers.com, add stuff to your cart. You can click on the wag tab, turns to wag.com. Now it feels like a pet specialty shopping experience, but you're heading to the same cart and you check out. - Yeah. - All right. Now we're going to get into the chapter of your life where you begin to encounter Amazon. You know, you guys were, I think, by the end of 2010, you were on track to do 300 million revenue. You were still not yet profitable if the firm right, but there was a path to profitability. It started to look earlier. - Exactly. - That was going to happen. And as you grew, you obviously became a guy on the radar of Amazon. And the reason why I know about this is because there's a book about Jeff Bezos' "Namzon" written by a reporter named Brad Stone, and he devotes quite a bit of it to the story of Quincy and diapers.com. So I want to dive into this a little bit because I know that from what I've read as early as 2009, Amazon approached you guys and said, hey, we'd like to acquire you. Is that right? - No, we had a discussion with them, but they didn't say we want to buy you. - They would say, would you consider selling the company? Something like that, just to fill you out? - Yeah, like if they said, if you were ever open to selling it, like, let us know. - So from what I understand, not long after that, Amazon slashed its diaper prices by like 30%. Let's just say it was Quincy dental, but is it timeline? - No, it wasn't Quincy dental. - It wasn't, okay. - No, it was unheard of at the time, you know, the idea that a commodity product that already lost money, it's already a loss leader, that you would lose another 30%, that's unheard of unprecedented in the history of retail. - Did that have any quick impact on diapers.com? - On your business. - It definitely slowed our growth rate. You would have thought it would have had a much bigger impact. Like we would actually shrink in size, but all it did was slow our growth rate. The customer base we had was very loyal, and we didn't lose many customers. - Or did I think was surprising to Amazon? - So that didn't make you nervous when that happened, you thought we're gonna be fine. - No, I mean, when you say nervous, it was definitely something that we had to seriously like focus on figuring out how we were gonna combat that. Anytime you have a company that size, that's targeting you. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So it seems like this is 2010. It seems like your only option at that point, I'm thinking is to go out and raise more money. And is that what you tried to do? - Yes, we had only raised $50 million, $55 million, up until that point, which was pretty modest. amount of money raised compared to today's standards. But we went out and we needed another hundred million to keep all the websites going and to really blow it out. We started putting some fields around the market, but everybody said, hey, listen, Amazon's coming after you. We're, that's too risky for us. - By the way, by 2010, when you're doing roughly 300 million revenue, how many employees did you have? - Maybe like 300. - Right, so there's a lot of people involved at this point. What are you telling yourself? What are you saying, okay, maybe we tried this. What was that this that you would try next? - No, it was really like we were gearing up to battle to raise that money. But at the same time, Amazon had asked us to go out to see them in Seattle, so we did that. - They asked you to go see them and you knew it was gonna be about potential acquisition. - I think we had a hunch, yeah, it's hard to remember exactly, but yeah, I think. - Before we get to that meeting, 'cause I think this happened in September of 2010. I mean, I imagine that within your business, there was a big dart board with Amazon on it. I mean, that they were the enemy. - Absolutely, yep. - So when they contacted you and said, "Hey, come out here, what do you remember thinking "about that offer?" - We were just like, yeah, they're coming after us. They're clearly targeting us. Now they wanna talk, or they're softening us up to, you know, before the surrender, you drop a couple bombs and then have the talk about surrendering. It felt like that, that's what it felt like. - All right, so you go to Seattle to me with Amazon, from what I've read about Amazon in the book by Brad Stone. On September 14, 2010, you guys go to Amazon headquarters to me with them and they to discuss a possible acquisition. What happens at that meeting? - Yeah, now you just broke my memory, but that's when they told us that they were launching Amazon Mom, which was a program designed to get moms into their membership program. And it was really driven by diapers. - From what I read, it would have meant that like, if you guys at diapers.com is sold a case of hamper for 45 bucks, you could get it for $30, the same product for $15 less. I mean, there's no competing against that. - Yes, that's exactly right. That is 100% correct. - So, I mean, it sounds like, and we know what happened. You eventually were acquired by Amazon, but it sounds like you were left with no choice. You had to agree to that acquisition. - Yeah, it's even worse that we got a higher offer that we didn't take. - A higher offer from? - I would just say, I don't think I've ever publicly disclosed this and I don't think I can. - But you got a competing offer from somebody else? - Yes, for 100 million more. - Why didn't you take that offer? - Because Amazon very clearly stated that if we took that offer, they would do even more to harm the business. - And listen, this is, be honest, this is how a lot of big corporations operate. They shouldn't, but they do. It sounds like a mob shake down. - I felt like it. - Would they do it with a smile on their face? I mean, these are people from the Pacific Northwest. They're very friendly. How are they, I mean, how are they presenting this to you? - In a pretty aggressive way. They said, hey, you gotta accept this acquisition offer or else we're gonna crush you. We're gonna bury you. - They said, well, yeah, we're gonna take the price of diapers to zero and we're gonna, you know, then they made some analogies to some other use explicit language and it was pretty scary stuff. I'll just leave it at that. - So you sell it to Amazon. You sell the business to Amazon. They buy it for 550 million or something like that. That's a pretty good return. I mean, you would raise 50 million. So, but of course you were losing money every year. But did that mean that your investors, you know, sounds like they came out okay. - Actually, all the investors did really well but their own investors made a huge return on their investment. - Yeah. So now you're an Amazon employee. You are running QuidZee, but now under the corporate umbrella of Amazon. And I'm just thinking if it was me, it would be a little weird. Here was this business that was kicking me in the butt for two years that I could not compete against because they were just so much bigger and they were gonna crush me and I surrendered. I had to with a great outcome, financial outcome, but now I'm working for you. How were you able to, you know, two weeks later, a month later, just like become an Amazon employee? Was that hard for you? - Well, let me just say, I mean, one thing we didn't talk about at diapers.com was just how Vinnie and I really set that culture up and that value system in a way that the culture was everything. Our mission was to make lives easier for new parents and that was really important to us. And we brought these people into this organization and we felt the responsibility to the employees. You know, one of the, my personal core values is fairness. And I felt like even though I maybe wasn't happy about how that went down. we did accept the offer for 550 million. We did sell the company. And I just felt the right fair thing to do was to give it the best we got for both Amazon and the employees more importantly. And so that's the kind of the way we looked at it. So there was definitely like, wasn't happy. So we were, when the day we sold the company, Vinnie and I, you know, you might have thought would go out and like have a drink to celebrate. We were depressed. - We were depressed. - Even though that day was gonna be transformational for you. - Yeah, basically I think it was like 40 years old at the time. And we didn't have a lot of money saved either of us. And so it was a never need to work again kind of moment and we couldn't even celebrate. - Yeah. - We had a vision for what we wanted to create. We put our heart and soul into it. And then our dream was sort of done. Like Amazon didn't even, when they brought us in, say, hey, we want you guys to run the mom, baby parent category within Amazon. They said, you know what, just keep doing what you're doing. Just continue to keep competing with us. - Wow. - That felt terrible. - So you were still competing, but now it was all part of the same family. - Exactly. - I understand the disappointment for sure. I think some people would say, but maybe, you know, mitigated by the money, but it doesn't sound like it was entirely mitigated by the money. Is that right? - Oh, for sure, definitely wasn't. - Yeah. - If I was still, you know, in my mercenary mindset, I might have felt differently, but I had made the transition by this point to be a full-fledged missionary. I've gone all the way from one side, all the way to the other, and I was driven and motivated by the bigger mission. - Yeah. - We didn't want to sell the business at that point. We definitely didn't want to sell the business. We basically sold out. - When we come back in just a moment, how Mark took the hard lessons he learned from competing against Amazon the first time and decided to launch yet another business. This time with an even bigger e-commerce idea. Stay with us. I'm Guy Razz, and you're listening to How I Built This. (soft music) Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Razz. So Mark is running Quidzy at Amazon, but it's not a super happy period in his life. And after around three years, he decides to leave. Now at this point, Mark has enough money that he never needs to work again in his life, but still, he can't quite shake the idea that there's more to do. - I just felt like there was unfinished business, meaning we had a vision and it got cut short, and so that vision we had, the mission that we had set out was still alive, like we wanted to give it another shot. - All right, so you start to noodle on an idea around e-commerce again. Talk me through what this idea was going to be in your head before you decided to launch it. What were you thinking about doing? - I just still continue to think that there was room in the market for another e-commerce player. Amazon didn't have any real formidable competition at the time and felt like I saw an angle. I saw the inefficiency that was brought about by people shopping on Amazon, buying things and one unit at a time, having it shipped across the country and things and a lot of expense in that. And came up with this idea that, what if you empowered customers to, I think, gave them the information to shop smarter to save money? Meaning that you were able to encourage people to make, to buy more things at one time instead of just like one off. - Not only more things at one time, but more things coming from the same location so they could ship in the same box. A lot of Amazon's packages will ship from different locations. Like, what if somebody's building a basket of product and they're about to put a product in the basket that would not be available in that same warehouse to ship in the same box, but was on the other side of the country, you could give the option to the customer to substitute that product for a product that was in the warehouse that could ship in the same box, they could save $6 in shipping and give $3 back to the customer. And so we built this real-time smart pricing engine that showed customers lower prices on things that would pull costs out of the supply chain. And so actually, if we did have scale, not Amazon scale, but enough scale, by having a more efficient supply chain, you could actually have lower prices and lower costs. But it assumed that you got to some level of scale, and so you needed to raise money, enough money, a lot of money to help bridge to that level of scale. - And this was for what would become jet.com. - Yes, jet.com. - And how much did you raise? - In total, about 750 million. - Wow. And so this was going to be, if I'm right, kind of like initially like a hybrid between an Amazon and a Costco, which was for 50 bucks a year, you got a membership, and then you would be offered the lowest prices on like 10 million items, more or less. Initially, that was the idea. And I guess like Costco, 'cause Costco really doesn't make money off the stuff they sell, they make money off selling memberships. That was the idea that you would make the money from all those people paying 50 bucks a year. - Absolutely correct. - So with that $700 million, I mean, you had to build warehouses, you had to create the supply chain. I mean, you now had considerable experience in that space, but kind of just sounds like a huge undertaking. - It was massive, yeah. It all comes down to what I call VCP, Vision Capital People. We had the vision. We needed to raise the capital, we needed to hire the very best people in the world. And it was the people that made the difference. The people we hired were incredible, and empowered them, gave them the information, and let them run as fast as they could run. I mean, we got to a billion run rate in revenue within 10 months of the business launching, which is, I think probably unprecedented at the time. - Now, I have a feeling I know how you're going to respond to this, but I mean, if you were being truly honest, intellectually honest here, I mean, it sounds like anybody hearing this story is going to say, "Okay, Amazon really was not pleasant when they went after Quincy." So Mark goes and works them for a couple years after the acquisition, but then he leaves and he basically decides to compete against Amazon. I mean, I know at the time you were quoted saying, "No, it's not about them versus us. It's just something I want to do," but that had to have driven you to some extent. 'Cause you've talked about being a competitor as an athlete, a competitor in the math test, when you get the worst score in the biology test, you want to get the best score. That's inside of you. - It wasn't about beating Amazon. It was about a big, massive market that was growing fast, and I was very excited to start a new culture and a new business with all the learnings from previous businesses. And we really honed a lot of the core values in the culture at Jet, like in really cool ways that I'm super proud of, you know, the transparency of salaries, or what it could see, whatever else is making, the fact that everybody in the company at the same level made exactly the same amount, you know, to really prevent unconscious bias from creeping in and things like that. - But how did you, I mean, you knew what Amazon was capable of doing. They could say, "We're just gonna cut the price of diapers by 30%, and we don't care if we're gonna lose a lot of money because we are going to win this battle." I mean, Amazon is a very smart company. What was gonna prevent them from doing the same thing this time around? - It was a little bit different because we weren't, like, had one product where we were so single threaded on, you know, diapers were such a high percentage of our sales and such a low percentage of their sales. So, you know, we were going mass, they weren't gonna be able to cut prices and everything. - So, I guess like three months into launching Jet.com, 'cause I remember those seamless ads everywhere, all over the New York subways, they were everywhere. I mean, you guys put millions of dollars into marketing this, but three months in, you dropped the $50 a year membership fee. Was that because it just was not gonna be a smart way to make money? - No, I still continue to think to the state that that would have worked well. The problem was that we had to do a big round of financing and starting to read the tea leaves from investors who said, you know, this membership, they really wanna see what the retention rate's gonna be. People buy the membership, do they stick with you, do they renew, and sort of got spooked by that. Thinking we're not gonna have enough time to prove that out. - Yeah. - At the same time, we're also seeing great traction without it. And so, we sort of pivoted the business model in such a way that the math worked without a membership. It did not necessarily mean that that wasn't the right strategy for the business had we had the capital and had the time. - So the site launches in July of 2015 and you knew that it was gonna lose money for at least five years. That was part of the plan that you showed to investors, but then there was gonna be an inflection point where it would turn around. You would get-- - That's all the investors we needed, we were gonna lose $3 billion. - Before you started making money. - That's correct. - And what did you have to do to, like what was the plan? What was gonna happen to start turning around and becoming profitable? - Just e-commerce is all a scale game. You build the infrastructure, build the technology, get the people, and then you just need enough sales because to margin, the variable margin on sale. sales is pretty low and so you need a lot of sales to cover your fixed expenses. I have to imagine that you knew you were going to burn through cash, but you were not worried about this because this was part of the plan. You had predicted this and you were okay and with the money you raised is 700 million. How much runway did you have? How much time did you have before you actually had to either raise more money or shut down? We were burning about 40 million a month. All right. But the real key was raising, we did a $618 million series A. So we'd raised somebody before that and then we had the 600 million series A. That was a really tough round to get done. That was at that time we had negative gross margins. It was going up against Amazon. You know, we needed to raise $600 million to get through the next 18 months basically. What did investors who decided not to invest? What the skeptical ones were they saying to you? Yeah, we always came down to whether or not you can raise the capital you needed to create a really big business because you were going to burn a lot of money competing against Amazon until you got to scale. And so $3 billion was what I said. It could have been more and they didn't know whether or not we'd go out and be able to raise $3 billion. Even with your track record at this point because you were still getting lots of notes, even with which you'd already built. Oh yeah. Way more notes than yeses, of course. But I always had a great experience with venture capitalists. I think they added a lot of value to the company outside of capital. I have one of these entrepreneurs that says, you know, "Race as much money as you can. Get the best venture capitalists, the best people that can help you around the table." I never worried about control and all kinds of other things that people worry about. They have to trust people. I think people start from a place they just trust too much and it's funny. The more you're able to let go and trust, the less work you do. Just have a lot more bandwidth to do a lot more. And I do that in my personal life and it gets me an extraordinary amount of time. Just straight up trusting people. I was talking to somebody who's been on the show about a year and a half ago. He's a really wonderful entrepreneur. We're just chatting and I said, "Do you have any resentment or do you hold any bad feelings against the people who doubted you or who turned you down or do you remember them or do not take any personally?" He said to me, "I remember every single one. I take every single one personally." And I love that. That was very honest. How about you? No. I don't know. I just feel like it's usually good reasons. I definitely don't take it personal. It does feel good when there's a big exit and invests to say, "Man, I should have listened to you. I can't believe I didn't invest." That definitely feels good. But I don't feel like I don't have anything. People make different decisions based on what's right for them and at the time. I accept that. So Jack got calm. It's burning through 40 million a month, but it sounds like with what you have, you could last a year and a half, but a year in, you get an offer from Walmart, an acquisition offer. Before I ask you, this is sort of strange. I don't ask you why, but then I'm going to say the price, which was $3.3 billion. It was the highest anyone had ever paid to acquire e-commerce startup in the US at that point. So imagine that was an offer you couldn't refuse. It depends. So I think we could have refused it. But again, tying back to what I said before about mission and values, it was the conversation that I had with Doug McMillan, the seat yield of Walmart. And a whiteboard in his office that sort of made the decision really easy for me. He basically said, listen, like, first of all, I, a lot of trust was built between us from the very beginning of every conversation. He did always did exactly what he said. And we also shared a similar vision of what we wanted to achieve in e-commerce. Walmart had any commerce site, jethead, any commerce site. And we felt, hey, if we could bring the assets of both companies together, sort of the people and technology that we had built a jet with the capital resources, the stores of Walmart and merge it together, wow, we could really, really become a formidable competitor. And this is where I say it's the difference between selling out and selling the company. We didn't sell out. Yes, we sold the company, but the mission was very much intact. And everything we had set out to do was now with the higher probability of success. And we had more capital to do it. We're going to get there faster. Were you surprised how quickly that happened? I mean, a year after you launched. I was surprised, but at the same time, I got it. It made sense. And when Doug said, Mark, we want to give you and your team the keys to sort of pull this all together and run this and take us to the next level, that was empowering. Now I wanted to give Doug one more in the board the very best I've got because it was very different than the Amazon experience. It didn't feel like selling, by the way. Yeah. It was very motivating. Wow, now we have, we've got, you know, it's sort of like we're fighting there with guns. And then, you know, all of a sudden you see like the big tanks roll in. Like, yeah, yeah, give me the tanks. I want the tanks. I want the Air Force, you know, coming to back us up here. So how was it going to work? I mean, was the idea that you would run jet.com but also turn Wal-Mart.com into a more formidable player? I mean, yeah, Wal-Mart was the number one responsibility. I think we basically took all the best people from jet and put them on Wal-Mart. We took the technology. We took the fulfillment centers. It was, I think the goal was really clear. Like, let's turn Wal-Mart.com into a formidable e-con player and use all the assets available to us. It didn't really make sense to have two mass market sites because we wanted to merge the best talent and put them on Wal-Mart. It wasn't the brand they needed. It was the technology and it was the, the people logistics and the people. Yeah. What was it like for you? I mean, and this is now the third time you were acquired, right? You'd gone to work for tops, you'd gone to work for Amazon, and you're working for Wal-Mart. But you know, you're an entrepreneur. It has to be a little bit strange or hard to all of a sudden work in an environment where you're not totally calling the shots. Yeah, it was very challenging, very challenging. I mean, I already had experience working inside Amazon, so I knew what to expect. And so I wasn't surprised by anything. In fact, I was probably pleasantly surprised, you know, at the culture of Wal-Mart and the ability for me to make the moves we made with speed. But still, it's just hard. I mean, anytime you're in a big company like that, there's so many people to get on board, to convince. And you have to educate people and you have to bring them along. And it's not the entrepreneur away. The entrepreneur away is, you know, you just go and you can't do that. But compared to your experience at Amazon, it does seem like you had a better experience with Wal-Mart. I mean, they actually made you head of e-commerce. And in that role, you did some kind of interesting things. Like you think in 2017, you acquired Bernobos. We actually had Andy Dunn, the founder on the show a couple years ago. And that was a pretty big deal, right? I mean, people were like, wait, Bernobos and Wal-Mart? Presumably, that was part of your strategic plan around e-commerce. Yeah, the high levels, the most strategic part of the plan was to change the narrative. I knew that we didn't have the talent inside of Wal-Mart at the time to do what we needed to do. We had to attract the best people in the world. And at that point, you know, honestly, that wasn't the place the best people in the world wanted to go. And so I knew we weren't going to go anywhere unless we changed the narrative, unless the people thought that Wal-Mart was now going to be a contender. And buying Bernobos was part of that strategy because that was a cool, hip, modern brand focused on millennials that was more premium product. It basically opened people's eyes and made them look at Wal-Mart differently. And that was certainly not one thing alone, that one move. But it was all the moves that we made together. It all started to compound. And it really, in the last couple years, it really started to come together. You recently announced that you are stepping down after four years at Wal-Mart. Four and a half, four and a half. Do you feel like you accomplished the things that you promised you would accomplish and that were expected of you? I do. I do feel good about it. What I've like to do more, gone faster, sure. But if I just take a step back, did we change the narrative? Yes. Did we dramatically accelerate top line sales? Did we create an incubator that's now building startups that could shape the future of retail? Yes. So all things considered, given the size of the company, and the fact that it's an aircraft carry and not a speedboat to move it the way we did, I feel proud of that. And I think that experience is going to make me a bit of entrepreneur going forward, too, which I really appreciate. You are either almost or already 50 years old, I think. I'm 49. Yep. Okay. Sorry. That's a scary number. It's a big number. And you've got a lot of experience behind you. You're an age where people become first-time CEOs. You've done it at least three times. There's no question that you're going to do something else. That's true. I mean, there's opportunities in retail, there's opportunities in healthcare, opportunities in energy. And I'm in a place now where I can really do something really disruptive that can have last evening. impact on the world and that's what that's what gets me that's going to be fired up. When you when you look over that course of your career so far, how much of your success do you tribute to? How hard you worked and how smart you worked and how much do you think happened because you got lucky? I think it was a combination of all three. I could think of things that where I did get lucky where things could have gone a different way and I wouldn't really screwed but at the same time the drive to keep coming like the terminator I wouldn't accept failure you know I just would keep going and going and going until the luck turned my way. You know your every story is different right and every journey is different and you know you're still going. I mean I can talk to you in 20 years and there maybe we may talk about none of this that we just talked about. And I wonder when you think about your trajectory you are a crappy student and had a rough childhood and if you knew that we were going to have this conversation then when you were 1819 and you would say oh my god look at me now. What would you think? Would you think man I made it? Would you have been satisfied and impressed and happy? What do you think you feel if you had that crystal ball? I think I'd be happy. The path to get to where I am today was not a straight line like I said you know I'm in my early to mid 30s you know playing Dungeons & Dragons you know that wasn't what I had set out to do but once I made the transition from mercenary to missionary and I really I let values create the value that's what happened values created the value and like I feel in a great place now and I feel like I'm set up like you said the next 20 years are going to be I think are going to be a lot better than the last 20. That's Mark Laurie co-founder of diapers.com and jack.com by the way even though Mark's career as a founder and executive has been wildly successful by any measure the competitive athlete in him still can't help wondering what might have happened had he chosen a different path. Is a part of you ever kind of wonder what would have happened or maybe you should have you should have just but absolutely absolutely and you know gold metal or something it's possible it's very possible. Hey thanks so much for listening to the show this week please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast apps you never miss a new episode of the show and if you're interested in insights ideas and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs please sign up for my newsletter at gyros.com or on substack. This episode was produced by Casey Herman with music composed by Routine Arableui. It was edited by Niva Grant. Our production staff also includes Chris Macini, John Isabella, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung, Carrie Thompson, Catherine Cipher, Nourgill, Ramel Wood and Elaine Coats. I'm Guy Ross and you've been listening to How I Built This.