Diageo: Why Luxury Brands Don't Have To Be Boring

From consumer insights across the world to the latest tactics and trends, you're listening to leap into luxury, the go-to marketing podcast for luxury brands. I'm Natalie and today I'm joined by André Boes, global luxury culture and content lead diagio. What a title! After cutting his teeth at the renowned PR firm Fleischmann Hillard, André stepped into not one but two impactful roles. Head of UK Communications for UK Black Pride, while simultaneously joining the culture and entertainment team at diagio. Last year he made the exciting transition to focus solely on his new role at diagio, as global luxury culture and content lead. On today's episode we're going to dive into a topic that's incredibly relevant and frankly over-due, bringing the fun and creativity back into luxury. So if too long, luxury marketing has felt like something that's a little bit serious, maybe a bit buttoned up, but consumer expectations are evolving and the world is shifting, so I think there's a real opportunity and a necessity for brands to inject more spark, more imagination and more fun into their storytelling. And you can really see that the brands that are doing so well, especially on social, are hitting that. We're going to explore the delicate balance between maintaining exclusivity and embracing approachability and how fun and creativity can truly elevate and differentiate a luxury brand in today's dynamic landscape. Welcome André, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me and inviting me into your lovely studio. That was quite an intro as well. I'm like, wow. I know. It's kind of like this is your life, I'm like, wow, okay. I've done bits. Yeah, I do a lot. We're in the presence of greatness, I'm like, wow, what a CV. So, let's kick things off. Why do you think it's so important now more than ever to inject fun and creativity into luxury marketing? What are the consumer expectations are driving that? Because it's a big question. Yeah, I think it's a combination of all of the macro changes happening, whether it's in the economy, whether it's in actual luxury itself, whether it's in consumer spending habits. I think there's just so much seriousness happening in the world and I think not just luxury, but all marketing really just needs an injection of fun, of escapism, of kind of taking a step back and remembering that marketing is meant to be fun. And you know, everyone who works in the world has an incredible fun job and consumers don't always want something super serious and powerful from brands. Sometimes they just want to buy into something that makes them feel better, not worse. Yeah, little whimsy never hurt anybody. Okay, so you're obviously very hands on with this, but I have to ask because you're essentially just saying you're like, you've managed, you inject fun into everything, which is actually everyone's dream job, I'm sure. But can you explain a little bit more like what is a global luxury culture and content lead? I've not heard of it before. Was this built for you basically and out of the need for things and kind of, you know, how do you see this need for fun and creativity contributing to the broader idea of the luxury world? I wish it was built for me. It would have been incredible. But it's, it's actually quite a new role within Diageo. So I'm taken over from the wonderful Izzy Rothschild who's got a maternity. I'm sure it's Izzy. And essentially we created a unit within Diageo for the luxury brands. So previously it's gone through quite a few changes and, you know, updates, but we take the portfolio and kind of segment into it. And the luxury portfolio is essentially anything that's above 250 pounds. So, you know, you go from a £600 dollar to key to a 50 grand whiskey. Wow. So it's really how do you kind of build the culture and the content around that? It's quite a bit of a specialism in regards to the team because the way that you would promote market to talk about 50k joining walk-a-bottle was very different to how you talk about Smeltoff. So it was kind of built in the last few years to bring in those expertise and to bring in that kind of specialism. And to really look at what the difference in culture and the nuances that exist to kind of use in all of the marketing to create the content. So I kind of see the job as you take the culture, which is everything that's existing, all the people we're talking to, all of the kind of like, taste makers out there, get what they're doing and what's happening and then feed it into the content that's kind of being pumped out across the right channels with the right people and the right places. Wow. That's a big role. It's fresh. I've only started quite recently and luckily, you know, sometimes global roles are like 50 markets. Yeah. But you know, this we're very focused, we're very, very kind of strict on how we support and who we support in which markets. I imagine you have to be with that clientele as well. You know, it's more focused, you are the more successful you're going to be. Yeah. Okay, so for luxury brands, we often kind of walk this tight route between maintaining exclusivity and being approachable. And I imagine, especially given the audience, you're talking to that is a very tight, tight route to walk. What do you think of the misconceptions around fund diluting luxury? Do you think that that's just a complete, you know, it's not a thing, it doesn't exist. Or do you think there is a bit of an element of it that is a play here? I think there's a few kind of things to consider. So like luxury means so many different things to so many different people in terms of not just products, but how things make you feel, you know, the experiences you're kind of taking place, taking part in. So I really think it's, it's looking at luxury being a bit of a spectrum. And some parts of luxury are really exclusive and they're super duper, you probably wouldn't even have like, heard of the brands or see the people buying them in that. Not day. I'm just specifically. I'm probably me specifically. I mean to be fair, every now and again, I'm like in a meeting, I'm like, write that down because I've never heard of this person. They're just like, amazing perfumey. I'm like, okay, cool. And I think it's an element of, you know, there are parts of it that I feel like they should be exclusive, but then the broad spectrum of luxury should be really aspirational. It should be something that everyone kind of looks to and you feel a bit of a transformation when you're involved in it, whether you're buying a product, whether you're in a store, it should be something that everyone can kind of feed into. And I don't think fun takes any kind of notes away from luxury. I think if you think about craftmanship, if you think about heritage, a lot of it can still be fun. If you look at brands like Maschino, not the most luxury brand in the world, but it's such, it's rooted in such, you know, heritage and such beautiful craftmanship. Like, you know, they've got a big get bag made up of the softest level in the world. That's really fun. It's silly. It's something that you can still engage with and it doesn't take away from it being luxury. Do you think that so many brands and especially kind of those legacy brands are too scared to inject any of that personality and what they're doing because that essentially, you know, showing personality can clash with consumers, depending on what it is that they like, what resonates with them and therefore eliminates them. But then by playing it safe, they're kind of eliminating them anyway or kind of falling into the background. I mean, it's wild. Yeah, I mean, as you said, it's like, it's a real tightrope to walk. I think a lot of brands are quite fearful of losing their core consumers, especially like in this day and age where money is tighter than it might have been a few years ago. You don't want to alienate your core audience because they're the ones buying the product. I don't know. A lot of brands are looking at like Gen Zed and who's next, but they're also really scared to lose that kind of core audience. But I do think there are some, obviously, the huge brands like Hermes, right, can kind of do what it wants. And I think we kind of looked at them. So they did a murder mystery in New York quite recently, which is like silly, right? So they've got an incredible, beautiful production. You've got consumers and guests playing a murder mystery, being invited by Hermes. And that is one of like the most heritage legacy brands out there. And I think they just kind of take the risk and take the gamble and brands like Burberry who did like a pub quiz last week. Yeah, they are killing it at the moment. The festival campaign. I am too obsessed with it. It's so good. And it's fun. It's like them having like the Burberry night come to life in like a campaign. That was shot on my street. I saw it. It was really. That made no sense. I saw it. Yeah. I saw it. I saw it. It was amazing. This guy was kind of trotting around our street in North London. It's in a night's outfit all day. God love him. It was so hot. And that like, it's fun. It's just like leaning into it. And I think one of the big things specifically within like cultural marketing is like meeting the consumer where they are and actually like really being open to collaborate and I kind of talk about this quite often in town, in terms of like giving away the key to the kingdom just a little bit to basically be like, we're going to collaborate with this person. Let's let them have fun with it. You know, I think alcohol is a very strict and regulated. Oh, we know. Yeah, it's tough. Exactly. I think that's right. Don't show them having any fun. Yeah. You must pour everything to be specifically measured. The bottle must be closed. No shots. No chance either. I know. So sorry to the listeners. This is our ASA regulation. The way we deal with J&D. Okay. So creativity for you then is all about those kind of unexpected moment and those unexpected collaborations between brands and consumers and things. But where does it draw a line? I'm really, I'm really interested in this only because we've had quite a few episodes now where we talk about things like TikTok and obviously the introduction of just digital and the, you know, the mass ways that we can speak to people. across all these different channels has really changed things. It's added like a further layer of segregation between a lot of different audience sets, right? So you're having to speak to each of those without eliminating the other. You've got the likes of social media now where it's whole new departments. It's still, I'm gonna say it's still something that everyone is is learning about and playing with all the time, especially legacy brands who are sort of later to the to the scene. Where do you stand on throwaway TikToks, throwaway content like that for these legacy brands when actually it's maybe not worth portraying a certain funders or a certain creativity like when it does have such a short lifespan? I think that's actually like a really really interested question and I think your point around your kind of different channels and different audiences, I think that's in my mind that's the answer. So if you're gonna be on TikTok, you kind of have to remember that it is kind of all throwaway, you know, and I think one brand that does it really well is the way they in terms of their TikTok content. It may mean something they don't do well. I know, I might hit behind that, but it's a way of waiting for you to join for an episode. Like everyone would be like listening like you know taking notes. But I do think it's it's the element of like you've got a brand that's got a heritage and a legacy and it kind of is an interesting one because it doesn't feel like it's gonna damage it by doing the TikTok stuff, what's gonna say, by doing TikTok content. I think it just brings new people into the world and I think if brands can start leaning into their actual own stories and heritage like a lot of these legacy brands have like Advertisement Marketing from like the 60s and 70s, which is so silly. It will be like you know a car brand, well I mean it's not necessarily a ASA compliant, but a car brand talking about you know going for drinks. So it's like things that are kind of not what you would expect nowadays. And I think it's leaning into that and it's actually being like this is quite entertaining and it's it's talkable. So to the point on TikTok I think brands should just do it and test it because the algorithm and the way it works, it's so random, right? You know so it does feel quite fray but it is helping you build the brand equity and then in the rest of your channels like if I go back to L'Ove, their Instagram is just super fashion. It's very high-end, it's very product-focused, so it's talking to a different audience and then I think a lot of other big heritage brands, you know you can do specific special things with like private clients where you're doing things in real life, you know your private client list is probably not on TikTok. So they're not even gonna see it, you know it's like it's yeah it's a case of like doing different things and being really really specific with what content is going well and to kind of make the most of everything. Yeah I think one of the biggest not mistakes because I understand it but one of the biggest downfalls that I witness is trying to use the same assets on every platform and it's the audiences like you say are just so different that you should have the confidence and budget preferably. It's a kind of creating that content, it is the budget is the issue and I completely understand that it's you know budgets are spread thinner than ever we hear it constantly and I sympathise but you really do see the brands that are excelling of those that are putting their money where their mouths are and investing in platform-specific content and really elevating those engagement with customers in the right places. Yeah and I think that's kind of the broadest sense of creativity right? If your problem is budget which it often is with everyone and everyone's brand like how can you be really creative like TikTok as a platform you can just back out an iPhone you know and then just like shoot some really fun you know one of my favourite the way they pieces of content they did on TikTok was like this young woman with her dad in the background like filming himself putting like all of his tools in a low-a-ve bag it's so random but that would cost ten pounds if that you know you could pay for the data you know. I mean I think when it comes to TikTok specifically it's it's maybe less about the budget and it's more about the hoops you've got to jump through internally because I think it is such a scary thing especially for people who've worked their way up the top and have been climbing that ladder for such a long time to be told no no trust me I'm gonna get a man to put tools in the bag so it's it's quite frightening and I think the difference for a lot of brands is whether the CEO or CMO or whomever is on board with that and is feeling you know like they like they trust the process yeah it's a massive gamble and you know it often in luxury particularly your brand guidelines are your Bible like you must live and die by them and then there's this new platform it's kind of coming along and it's like no none of that works anymore you've got to throw it out the window and do something completely don't just succeed yeah that is that is like it's a very like fair point and I think it's like how do you take the brand guidelines and like mold them you know it's like how do you keep caught of what your brand is about and what your audience is looking for but then just like tweak it a little bit and I mean even talking about TikTok we're actually we can't use TikTok because it's not been double age verified yet so you know I think that's for me something that's really exciting as soon as we get the like you know the rubber stamp to say we can do that it's going to be that exact same conversation okay guys like are we and this is you know not just the luxury space but across all of the brands it's like are we willing to kind of move away from the brand guidelines a little bit like how can we kind of push and push the boundary a little bit and then yeah from a luxury perspective there is a thing of I go out to the example of like the 50k whisky does that belong when TikTok you know it's like it's one of those questions where you know it's just I do think it belongs anyway I'm not a wiser back in the vault yeah no I'll get you some whisky maybe not that one maybe not that one yeah I'm talking you're pushing boundaries there I suspect that especially within luxury they're looking after a luxury portfolio that's something you do come up against quite a lot what would be your advice about overcoming traditional mindsets in that sector and how to kind of if you've got stakeholders who are a little bit more reluctant to you know step into that more whimsical fun space how do you bring them along on the journey with you it's always a fun journey and I think within the restrictions at Yasuo and other alcohol brands you know you've got to push gently I think if you like push the boundary too much it doesn't go out and but I think my kind of biggest piece of advice is like bring other people to the table I think within culture there are some incredible people within fashion within editorial within content within like you know other other brands that if you bring them to the table and showcase that like not just examples of when like Winsy and fans really worked well but also like the thinking behind it and the people who are behind it and where it's going I think sometimes within the culture team as a whole I think that's quite interesting speaking to someone about this recently where you kind of plan for now and like the next phase and no shade but sometimes not all marketers think like that and you know some people who are very much very brand marketing focused will really think quite what's gonna help move the P&L for now whereas I think the difference with like culture marketing is you're like what's gonna move the brand over the next five years and sometimes you've got to continue bringing creatives and people to the table to actually get more people to understand what like the mission should be I think when you're looking at things like collaborations or content it takes a while to get everyone on board because not everyone will understand or know who you're trying to collaborate with so I think the more people and not just like data data is obviously super key but I do think sometimes it's bringing people into the rooms and actually saying listen to this person you know we've been fortunate enough to have some incredible consultation from some incredible people within the luxury industry and those hour 30 minute lunches coffees with like you know your CMOs and very senior people in the business and very senior people in their field changes everything and everyone suddenly gets it like a light bulb goes off in their head and they're like oh if someone who's the editor of this like huge luxury publication is saying we should be doing this maybe I should be thinking about it and then it's like you know you start bringing more people into the journey yeah I do this with my husband I'll tell him something's a good idea and he won't believe me until his friend tells him it's a good idea and he's like maybe this is a good idea I'm like oh my gosh I'll be doing this the whole time and then sometimes the person will think it is their idea yeah I was talking to this person and I just had this idea and he's like yeah genius check this text message wait a few weeks ago like whatever takes to get it over the line can you share an example of somewhat risky creative that has totally paid off in this scenario so I think and this is this is where I'm gonna you know hands up be speaking on behalf of myself rather than yeah oh no no it's not my work no because I think it's In terms of like at the Azure, we've got some really exciting things coming up. So I think like the best is yet to come, which is always really exciting. I do think, and it's a bit of a controversial one, A, because it's a competitor, but B, because not everyone agrees. But I think when Belvedere brought in Daniel Craig, did you, oh my god, I love that. >> That makes you K one of our clients. >> Oh my god. >> Because it was just like, it was so unexpected. >> Yeah. >> It was really random. It was really fun. And I think everything around it, so you obviously had the main 60 second film. But then even the editorial and like advertorial content that went in with the magazines, like the serves and the drinks were like really random. Like this bright orange drink, Daniel Craig is an inner, but then he's in it when it's in the airport. So I think that, to me, if I look at it from the outside in, that probably was a big risk for them. I'm assuming the budget you guys can tell me after. When I'm assuming it was quite a big budget. >> We won't, if you're listening, we won't. >> [LAUGH] >> I'm pretty sure. >> But I'm assuming it was a really, you know, a big budget and I think it was something that it felt very like left-of-field. >> Yeah, no, I agree with that. >> Yeah, I didn't see it coming at all. >> Yeah, for Belvedere specifically. And I think one thing, you know, that is quite interesting is I don't, and you know, don't know who works there, but amazing. And I think they've not really kept their energy. And I think that's when the benefit and the kind of like strength in doing something so different continues when you keep on pushing. Like obviously not working with Daniel Craig again, but like, what else can you do? So I think from my perspective in what we're doing at Jageo, there are a few things that have worked really well. The Peggy Goo collaboration in 1942 went amazingly. >> Yeah. >> And she's amazing and I've actually got two bottles with me now. >> Just for afternoose. Big Tuesday. >> Yeah. >> I've got to carry them around to take them to a shoot. But I think that, you know, it paid off. It was a risk. It was the first time Don Hulu ever did a cultural collaboration with a talent. And I think the business kind of looked at it and went, okay, we normally don't get to like change the bottles from a lot of these brands. So I think it kind of opened the door for us to do more of that as well. >> I love that kind of stuff. I think Verfley Codew very well as well. Not just to keep known checking our clients, but I just, I went to the exhibition they did at Piccadilly last year. Just to see the breadth of the kind of collaborations with artists and designers and to see a brand push it that far, like beyond just creating content, like changing the bottle, like everything that they do. >> And the accessories as well. >> Yeah. >> I also went. And I'm sad we didn't go together now. >> Yeah, me too. >> But the accessories that they brought into it as well, it was like, I don't know, it was a whole like artsy move. >> It's also when you see someone that really commit to something to that degree and you just, you then buy in as someone there, you go on the journey with the brand and you're like, "Ooh, I'm excited about this, I don't know why, but I am." >> Exactly. >> I'm also name dropping our clients, but don't forget Gaggan, don't pay. >> Oh, yeah, nice. >> So we did that and it was actually, like I was thrilled to work on that campaign. >> Yeah, I just thought that was such a good collaboration. And the way, I mean, I think the creative around it was insane and it encapsulated both the product and Gaggan, which was what made it so perfect. But I wouldn't have expected that in a million years. >> No, so true. >> Right, we'll stop name dropping our clients now, sorry. >> My competitors, I might say. >> I'll be honest with you. >> So cultural relevance, no more competitors. >> How do you ensure that your creative approaches are not just fun, but also resonate with the audience? Because it's one thing to kind of just pick an artist or a collaborator and think this works for us. But if it doesn't land with the audience, then it's almost a waste of investment. So how do you measure that? >> Yeah, I think we always kind of try to go culture fast. So what's happening in culture, who's interesting, what are the kind of things bubbling under? And I think that's the quite interesting bit is always like, well, for me personally, I always think you have like a big face, you know, someone really exciting, shiny celebrity collaboration. But it's the kind of grassroots bit under it, which are like quite interesting and kind of like the sticky cultural insights. And I think that to me helps ensure that there is relevance. It's like what is the, not necessarily like insight in terms of like, you know, parcel was all about, duh, whatever, duh is good. And the insight is about like getting dirty is actually good because then kids build up the Reming system and all the kind of stuff. Like there's a lot, there's a lot behind that. But insights in terms of like what's just really interesting and what's cool and what you've seen. >> Yeah. >> And then I think going back to the previous point around bringing more people to the table, I think obviously you don't, you know, too many chefs in the kitchen is not often good. But if you've got the right balance of people from different parts of culture and different viewpoints and luxury, you can kind of create something where, holistically, everyone can see themselves in it and they can agree with it. And it builds more culture relevant. So I think sometimes you can go Tunish. >> Yeah. >> And it's something that will drop in and then that's it. You know, you can kind of like do something that's sustainable and can like be built across a good few campaigns. >> Yeah. >> I think, you know, it's all about bringing the right people on board with your project, whether it's agencies, whether it's consultants, whether it's actually the talent themselves. And I do think if it is talent, again, to give them the keys to the kingdom, I think really just say like, what do you think your audience would engage with? >> Yeah. Which I think is like tricky for luxury brands because as you said, there's the heritage, there's the craftmanship, but how do you intertwine the two? >> Yeah. And then you see it, I think it's getting better, that kind of level of trust that brands are starting to put in content creators specifically. But at the start, they were reticent to understand why. And it didn't land all ways. So I think the more you're able to trust that you've picked the right collaborator, you've picked them for a reason and they will know how to talk to their audience and engage them the better. >> Because audiences are like so savvy. >> Yeah, but this is especially not. >> Yeah, it's wild. There are so many like- >> Except for my mother who's still to this day is not- >> Really? >> Honestly. >> And like AI is just changing. >> Oh. >> So have you seen all the latest campaigns that are like, they start saying something ridiculous and they're like, but I'm not real because this is AI. And they're trying to basically educate the new audience. Like it's absolutely fantastical stuff or like crazy stuff that's happening around the world. Like news reporter saying it and then they just end with, but I'm not real. And this is AI and it's basically like, it's out. Sorry, I'm gonna turn to you. >> Do you see that campaign? >> I don't know, but I need to go look at it. >> I've seen a few now, actually excellent. But I digress. So beyond the why and how, which you've answered wonderfully, for our listeners who are working in luxury marketing, what are some tangible ways that they can start to bring a bit more of that fun and creativity into their day-to-day strategies? I mean, especially within those established kind of brand-guide line, you know, centralized kind of- >> The strict ones. >> Yeah, the strict ones, basically. >> I- >> And this is something that I've actually started doing recently is like taking those brand-guide lines and like say, for example, they're a ten, they're like on a page and then every other day, or like every week pick one and like come up with a creative or an idea that goes against it. And then see like, if it could be pushed right. And if you've got- >> Do you have enemies? >> [LAUGH] >> So funny enough, no, I think I- I think it's because I like, I'll do that and then I'll like see how it fits. So if you only change one thing, everything else stays the same. >> Yeah. >> What does that look like? Can you get away with that? >> I do kind of think you get majority buyin internally as well from people who are a bit like, oh gosh, I've been liking it until these guard line for ten years. Just anything a little bit spicier. I kind of love it, so yeah, I get you. >> And I feel like for brands or kind of categories where the change in terms of like the actual products themselves is quite like gradual. So like within alcohol, the core range will often stay the same. And then you bring out like new expressions, like new lip quads. But in between those times, I think that's the best time to kind of try to push the brand guidelines because you've got to find really creative and interesting ways to talk about the same product. >> Yeah, it's true. >> Over and over again. And I think pushing that boundary on the band guideline, that one thing you change might then change the rest of the ten things in like the next ten years. It's always a bit of a long game. And then I think it's always just like, and this is like such a simple one, but it's just keep on sharing examples. Like I've spoken to everyone in the business about the Hermes, Madame History because I want to do that. >> Yeah, you should do this. >> And I'm married for a 50,000 bottle of 50,000 bottle of whiskey. >> You did it. Maybe not that, actually, I don't know if that would go with our marketing code. Maybe not. Maybe not. >> It's kind of a massive theatre. >> Yeah, like a high five game, I don't know. >> Yeah. >> No one gets murdered. >> It's like, right punch drunkard. That was a lovely break. >> Okay, so I'm going to circle right back now because we talked about kind of different platforms and audiences earlier. So looking at those different platforms, what ones do you find at the moment are the kind of best for bringing the sense of fun and creativity? to look to your audiences is it only TikTok or do you push the boundaries on other ways? And looking forwards, why do you think you're going to be able to push them even further? Ooh, I think to me Instagram is still like the core kind of like you know platform and channel and I think it's like how do you push that forward? But I was actually thinking about this query recently in terms of like sonic branding and like things like podcast and things like you know it's not it's not very luck for you. Oh, podcast, who'd listen? I don't know. You're recording this. No sonic branding I think is interesting Rich, how many name check him here? Who's our audio engineer? The man behind the marks. And he does a lot of sonic branding for brands and I think it's something that people are investing in more and more because it's a sense that really kind of embeds you in a customer's mind. I think it's something. Yeah. And it's like it doesn't feel like it's overly saturated at the moment and it kind of feels like it's another way to signal what your brand is doing. Yeah. And obviously we mentioned like AI. I think it's kind of pushing the boundaries of like creativity like my whole TikTok at the moment. It's just like AI films and like AI like you know memes and skits like there's one with like big foot you know and he's like going on a date with a little mermaid. It's just really random but I think it's like things like that are going to basically push people to kind of make more random things. Yeah. Do you love that though? That's the only thing I will accept at the moment. I have my particular opinions on AI I think functionally for operationally it's wonderful when brands are using it to do what they already do. Yeah. But like yeah. But for the ridiculous in the wild and the wonderful. Yeah. Absolutely especially for those brands that like limited they don't have like a million pound production budget to have what was it? Big foot doing what? Big foot and the little mermaid going on a date. Plus who has the rights to big foot? Yeah. Who's the user driver? Who gets questions? Yeah. So obviously Disney with the little ones. Yeah. In saying okay so to wrap things up if you could give one piece and I know I'm like squeezing all of the advice into it's out of you. I have to listen to this back. Let's do that. If you could give one piece of advice to a luxury marketer who feels or maybe feels that brand has perhaps become a little too serious and wants to reignite that creative spark. What would your single most important piece of advice be? Ooh. I would say no. I was going to say like no content against the white background. But I would actually say I don't think this will be coming from like a bit of my like career background. It's been in luxury so it's kind of like been big consumer brands. Now it's like looking at a new audience and new ways of working within luxury. So I would actually say like take out the price point of whatever your brand is and think about it as like just if it's you know fashion think of it as a lower end fashion if it's a watch think of it as a lower end watch because then you can open yourself up to a bit more creativity with the thinking and then you build back in the luxury principles. And I think that's kind of how we're working within some of our brands where you know they have lower cost variance and you always have to think about the trademark. So you've got you know like a 25 pound bottle of Johnny Walker versus a 50k. You've got to think about how that 50k impacts maybe not the 15 pound bottle but the 200 pound bottle. So you're kind of taking out the price points and taking out a lot of what you think you know about the audience because I think that's actually that's probably it. It's probably like take out the audience first because I think there's a lot of preconceptions a lot of individuals will have around luxury consumers and whether it's like demographically where like they're based you know like what countries are spending more money I think when you take that out you can kind of come up with really great kind of creatives. Yeah I think that's increasingly important as Gen Z and you know not an alcohol but even Gen A become consumers because everything we think we know about customer behavior they just don't subscribe to the same things as we old millennials do and you know how do you know it's true that they don't have to do one part. So yeah I think the brand let you say the brands that take that pressure off themselves to cater for what they assume is their customer base will have more fun. People really love that answer as well as you were talking I was like looking at you like wow that's why he's global lead guys. I think so we're not learning Andre Lee of the studio so we'll have seven more podcasts out of him in the next day. Yeah I'm kidding we'll let you go now thank you so much for joining us today it's been so good. Thank you for having me it's been great. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to Leap Interluxury.