Speaker 1Welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast. I'm Sean Bublitz, Managing Director here at the Unstuck Group, and I'm joined today again by my teammate Jonathan Smith, Lead Pastor of OneChurchTO in Toronto, Canada, and Unstuck Consultant, and to add to that, my co-host for this series. You're a lot of things, Jonathan. Wow. Last week on the podcast, we spent some time laying the foundation for today's conversation. We talked about why so many churches are running with a volunteer bench that's too lean, what it costs them in the long run, and then how to start thinking about closing the gap by setting goals and creating a plan. And we ended with this idea. You've probably got people sitting in your seats right now with more leadership capacity than you know. The problem is that most churches don't have a system to find them or develop them once they do. And that's exactly what we're getting into today. How you identify a volunteer, a volunteer that has leadership capacity, and then once you find them, what does it look like to actually develop them intentionally through a pipeline?
Speaker 2I think last week we were reading pastor's mail because I don't think that we have an intention problem. We have attention problem. Pastors and leaders are pulled in so many directions and ministry often rewards the immediate and the urgent, but not the important. And that's part of the problem. Right. But if we can resist some of that energy and give attention to the volunteer bench as well as the leadership, then we're going to get there. Right. We're going to get there.
Speaker 1Right. Right. the people around them, not just the tasks. And this transition is actually harder than it sounds because a great volunteer isn't automatically a great volunteer team leader. The skills are very different. You're asking someone to shift their focus from what can I do to what can my team do. And that shift requires coaching. It requires investment. It doesn't just happen because you gave someone a new title. And then the third level in this framework, I'm going to call coach. That's the language we'll use. This is a person who's leading other leaders. They're not just modeling. They're actually recruiting. They're building teams. They're solving problems and sometimes even managing conflict. It's no longer about what they produce personally. It's about what their team produces. This person has demonstrated that they can develop other leaders, not just lead themselves. And here's why this level matters so much for our conversation today. If someone can't function as a coach, like leading other leaders in a volunteer context, they are not ready to step into a staff role. This is where you find out if someone actually has the capacity to lead at that next level. Jonathan, anything that you would add to that framework?
Speaker 2Man, it brings to mind a quote. I think it was from Tony Morgan saying to one of the staff members that unstuck at one point, I'll no longer reward you for what you do or reward you for what you give away. And that's getting to that upper level of leadership and coaching. And I love this framework. If I was going to give advice to leaders here, because I've learned this the hard way, you can develop someone into their God-given capacity, but you cannot develop them beyond that. And I think I've overestimated. I think I've sometimes hired a project before a ministry sometimes, or a ministry before a minister sometimes, as Andy Stanley would say. I've overestimated my ability to develop people because I've wanted things for people or maybe needed them to be in roles that exceeded my ability to develop people. And I think that's a really good point. That exceeded maybe their capacity. And I've made that mistake more than once. And I've had volunteers who are phenomenal at level one. They're great on the volunteer bench. I mean, just rock stars, great individual contributors, showed up early, did the work, encouraged people even around them. And I thought, this person needs to be a team leader. And so I promoted them. You got it right. I've gotten it wrong many times. And it was a bit of a disaster. And they weren't bad people. They're great people. Yeah. They were gifted as individual contributors, less as leading a team. Thriving volunteers get discouraged when you make them a team leader. And this is not who they are. The flip side happens though, too. You know, you find someone, I'm thinking of someone specifically, you talked about Leroy. I'll talk about a guy named Vinny on our production team. A couple of years back, he joined the production team. Faithful. I mean, faithful. But I never saw him as an obvious leader. It just didn't give me that. I don't know. It just wasn't. It was something I saw in him naturally. But we started to notice that other volunteers were orbiting around him. And they'd show up early because he was there. And we realized that this is a bit of what natural leadership looks like before it gets named. And we pulled them aside, had the development conversations. I think of our production lead, Jeff, who really mentored him and poured into him. And within a year, he was not just a team lead. He's now in a coaching role in our organization as a volunteer. And he's now in a coaching role in our organization as a volunteer. I love that. Coaching others. And sometimes you just need to see it and name it and then develop it, right? Yep. So the framework is great, but it's only as good as our willingness to resist the temptation to promote out of need rather than out of discernment. I love those labels that you guys have developed, the volunteer, the team lead, the coach at different levels. What are some of the ways you've seen churches use it for maximum impact?
Speaker 1Well, I want to answer that question, but maybe not in the way that we're used to. I mean, I think it's a good question. I think it's a good question. I would say that most people would assume, because I think one of the most underrated parts of this whole conversation is the power of simply having a common language around these levels. When everyone on your staff and ministry teams knows what a volunteer is, which we get that question still, what's a volunteer? How do you define that? What a team leader is, and then what a coach is. You just talked about this in your context, Jonathan. And then those words mean the same thing across every ministry. Something really important happens then. People know where they are. They know where they could go, what the next step might look like. And then the leaders in the church know who to look for and how to develop them. All just because of that shared language that we're using across every ministry. Without the shared language, every ministry is kind of doing its own thing. Kids ministry has their version of leadership development. Student ministry have theirs. Worship ministry has theirs. And none of it connects. And you can't build a pipeline across a church if everyone speaks a different language. I was working with a church in Ohio recently, and they knew they had a leadership development problem. And we looked at their data, and they weren't where they should have been in terms of number of volunteer leaders. They had lots of volunteer opportunities, but looked at them more in terms of greeter, usher, musician, et cetera. When I introduced a different language, let's think about it in terms of volunteer or volunteer leader or coach, and then applied that same vocabulary across all of their ministries, the development pipeline just clicked for them. All of a sudden, they saw a framework to develop people rather than roles that needed to be filled for services. And that's the power of just having a common language. So before you do anything else, get your ministry leaders in a room and ask them, do we have a common vocabulary for leadership and volunteer leadership in our church? And if the answer is no, or if people start giving different answers, you've just found your starting point. This is where to begin. So let's, Jonathan, move our three different levels. We've got our language developed. Now what's next? Step one, I would say, is what I'd call a pipeline audit. Go ministry by ministry within your church and map out who you actually have at each level right now. This exercise I found is so powerful. I've done it with churches with just a simple spreadsheet and a volunteer matrix. And you're asking the question, how many individual volunteers do we have? How many volunteer team leaders do we have? And then how many coaches? Here's what I think you're going to find. You probably have a decent number of volunteers at the first level and maybe a handful of team leaders at that next level, but then almost no one functioning as a coach. That top level of the pipeline is almost always the thinnest. And it's the most important one if you want to develop future staff. I get that question from churches sometime. Maybe we don't have enough volunteers in terms of span of care to really need that level of coaches. But I would say implementing that early on helps you to identify who are those people that have potential staff level capacity. Step two after that is identifying who has that next level potential. And this is where you're going to have to be really intentional because these people don't self-identify. They're not going to walk up to you and say, hey, I think I might be ready to lead a team. You have to be watching for them. You have to be looking for those indicators. You have to be looking for those leaders. So what is it that you're looking for? A few things that I've experienced here. Have they been focused on and gotten results in their current role that they're in today? Have they shown initiative doing more than what's been asked of them? Do they maintain a positive attitude when things get hard? And maybe most importantly, do other people naturally follow them? Not because they were asked to, but just because that's who they are. Jonathan, sometimes if we're not looking for these things, we can miss some great leaders that are already on the team. You told a story similar to this already, but I had a volunteer in my church that was quiet. She was a little reserved, but she was very personable when you talked to her. What really stood out to me from her was her initiative. She was always on time, very prepared. She went the extra mile to help other volunteers and make sure they had what they needed. And nobody had to ask her to do it. She just saw something that needed to be done and stepped in. And even though she was reserved, she still had great people skills and intuition. I ended up inviting her to the leadership role. And I was so glad that I did. She ended up being a key volunteer leader that really served our church well. So I just think it's so important to know what you're looking for and to keep your eyes open. The third step then I'd add to that is the actual development conversation. And this is the part that most of us don't do well. Once you have identified someone with potential, somebody needs to sit down with them and say, Hey, I see something in you. I would like to invest in you. And here's what that looks like. That conversation changes everything because most volunteers have never had anyone tell them they have leadership capacity. And when someone does, when a leader takes the time to see them and name what they actually see, it is genuinely motivating in a way that no volunteer recruitment campaign ever would be. I mean, think about you have this opportunity within the church, probably a church that you love to serve and use your gifts. And somebody is saying, that to you. I mean, that's pretty special. And then let me wrap up this idea with this fourth step here. And I think this is critical, is that development has to be ongoing. It's not a one-time conversation. It's regular check-ins. It's coaching in the moment. It's giving people small leadership wins early and then walking with them through the experience. It's letting them make mistakes without pulling the rug out from underneath them, which can be really hard for us sometimes. Development always costs control. And churches that won't pay that price, they never really build depth. So Jonathan, that's a lot of context and several different steps. Anything that you would add here for leaders who are trying to figure out where they actually start?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think we call them high capacity volunteers at that coaching level. They're at a different level and we almost treat them like staff. They have access to our building, our meeting spaces with us, and they have regular check-ins to help them develop because they're dealing with conflict management. We want to help them with that. We want to make sure they're investing in people and keeping them on the vision of the church. And you would see a young man named Vinny on those weekends pouring it. He does such a great job recruiting, but it's no longer about him getting the shine from doing the job. He loves seeing these younger people than him now stepping up, running our cameras, whatever it might be on the weekend, training them and equipping them to do it. That's great. Something amazing happens when you sit across from someone and says, I see something in you. I want to invest in you. You're not just inviting them into a role. For some people, you're dismantling the story that they've been telling themselves about who they are. I think this is a powerful moment when someone gets recognized by that. So my encouragement to pastors listening is don't underestimate the spiritual and emotional weight of that conversation. You're not just filling a role. You're speaking identity over someone. Naming someone's leadership capacity is a part about helping them see themselves the way God sees them and the way God has equipped them. The other thing I might add is, and this is something I've personally had to grow in, is that development conversations, have to be honest in both directions. Sometimes having a coach level person who's still operating like a team leader because they've never been pushed is maybe they're in that role because you haven't had a hard conversation with them. Sometimes you have someone in a coaching role that shouldn't be there. And the development conversation in that case is harder. But just as important, I love you. I see you. I think we put you in a seat that doesn't actually fit your game. I think we put you in a seat Let's talk about where you thrive. That's also a development conversation. And that's hard, whether you're talking to a staff member or whether you're talking to a high capacity volunteer, a coach or a team leader or even a volunteer. If you're committed to development conversations, there are ones that are calling people to step up. And sometimes there are ones that are just acknowledging that maybe they've been elevated beyond their capacity. Find a seat that they'll thrive in. The church will be better off for it.
Speaker 1Absolutely. Yeah, that is so hard. But it is the kindest thing we can do, right? It is the most loving thing we can do. I think it's hard for pastors.
Speaker 2We want to edify and build up. And sometimes we need to acknowledge that edifying and building up is also God corrects us or redirects us. And that can be a healthy way of helping people find their next step.
Speaker 1Yeah. Jonathan, thanks for joining me this week and sharing your wisdom in this. We've got one more week in the great. I've enjoyed the conversation. Before we close, I want to say one more thing to the leader who's listening right now and thinking, you know, this all makes sense, but I genuinely do not have time for this right now. I get it. But here's the honest truth. The reason that you don't have time is probably that you don't have enough leaders. And the way that you get more leaders is by doing exactly this work. It's one of those problems that only gets solved by going through it, not by trying to go around it. So I would encourage you to start small. Pick one ministry in your church. Identify one person who has next level potential. Have that one development conversation. Sit down and tell them you see leadership in them. That's it. That's how you start spinning the flywheel. Because here's what's on the other side of this work. A church where the burden isn't falling on the same five people. A church where ministry leaders are actually developing leaders, not just managing volunteers. A church where when it's time to hire, you've already got people who've been proven, developed, and they're ready to go. That is worth the time investment for you. So if this series has been helpful for you, would you consider leaving us a review on your preferred podcasting platform? It really does help us reach more church leaders and help them find the show. And if you're listening and thinking, we need help building this kind of system at our church, that's exactly the kind of work we do at The Unstuck Group. You can start a conversation with us at theunstuckgroup.com. Next week, we're wrapping up the series by talking about the final level of the pipeline equipping staff leaders. Because all of this volunteer development work only pays off long term if you know how to bring the right people onto your team and then set them up to actually lead. We'll see you next week.
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