Designing with satire with Paul Davis

[MUSIC] Welcome to Design Your Life, the podcast where we explore the central role design plays in our everyday lives. And how, if harness correctly has the power to positively transform the way that we live, design better businesses and sustainable solutions for the planet. We speak to creative entrepreneurs around the world about how they inspire their ideas to life and how they make it all work and the role design plays in their lives. I'm your host, founder of Frost Collective, and author of Design Your Life, Vince Frost. Welcome to today's episode of Design Your Life. Today I catch with my good mate and seriously talented British artist and illustrator Paul Davis. Tune in as we chat about how he changed his life by giving up alcohol, why he sees art as a form of therapy and had to know when he pushed it too far. Hey Paul, we're in Soho in London. It's nice to be home and it's wonderful to see you again. YouTube, Vince, thanks for asking me. I'm very, very happy to be here. You're always been, you're kind of a long distance friend I guess now. And I just every day kind of, we stay connected for me observing what you're doing. So I feel like we're connected. We're probably not. I think we are. I think that's the beauty of how not necessarily social media, but just some sort of connection down the wire service beat is it's a beneficial thing. Yeah, I think it's a key to people closer together. Whereas before, would we be writing letters to each other? I don't know. Probably not. But you are prolific because I mean, literally every day you're posting new work. Yeah, you've been consistent as well. Like you just kept producing incredible work and ideas. Samey? Samey, but I think I don't know. I worry about saminess. I must admit, you know, Horizon put something on it. There's some theatrical situation to, you know, the ridiculous search for the meaning of life and the pitfalls and slapstick that us humans are so good at. The idiocy and the beauty of being alive, you know, that's what appeals to me. So every morning, especially because I do suffer from insomnia. So those mornings of some sort of 430, even even earlier, you know, if I can't go back to sleep then I sit in the front room, don't turn the telly on because that's just being fed, you know. And just see what it could, you know, and I have to do it. Otherwise I'll go, I'll get depressed, basically. And I was reading on a website that said, "Paul finds life preposterous, but still madly beautiful." Yeah, I think it is. I think preposterous is us. I think that the kind of, without wishing to sound negative, but the cold-heartedness of nature doesn't have self-reflection like we do, like the old argument, you know, we can study how we think. And we don't think animals can, or plants, or. But there's some sort of guy-esque thing about this huge thing that we're on. Yeah. When, in fact, tiny, when you think about it, relatively it's tiny. Yeah. Miniscule in this vast universe. And I never ever forget that. Every day I'm reminded of that incredible, almost overwhelming knowledge that we, as humans, have worked out over the years we've evolved. There's only really sort of a million years, I suppose, arguably a million years, but 200,000 years is where we've been able to sort of become humans, I guess. So it's a really tiny man of time since this earth was born of fire and gravity and all sorts of madness. Well, let's talk about birth. Let's talk about where you started off to begin with. I was born in Somerset near Bath, which I can't remember too much about, but then we moved to a different part, and I remember that quite vividly when I was really young, so it was about three, I think. Then we moved to Falmouth in Cornwall for a bit. And then after that we moved back to Somerset. My mum and dad and me and my sister, my younger sister, Helen, grew up near the Mended Hills near Cheddar. So Cheddar Gorge. Cheddar Gorge. So that's where I grew up. So all my sort of formative years from five or six or something like that up to when I left pretty much was there. I mean, I was bucolic and gorgeous and cider and mushrooms and all that kind of madness that one does. My relatives are all from Somerset too. Really? So there's connection there. Whereabouts do you know? Right. It was a form. A form, yeah, maybe. It was very cool at the moment. Yeah. What else you're going to say? Was it a creative family? Kind of. My dad, my dad unfortunately dropped dead when he was 45 and I was 17. I was very close to my dad. So that's a trauma that you manage for the rest of your life, you think. And you know, he taught me about speed of light and planets and gravity and all that. What did he do? He was a working class boy from South Bristol, in Null. And my mum was a working class girl from the same road. They fell in love, which is gorgeous. What were their kids? Teens, I think. I had a motorbike. I had a Panther 600, I think it was, 600, maybe. Single cylinder. So he was cool and he was like that. Sounds like my dad, he was like that. Was he? Yeah. So he tried to have tiger, I think he had. Nice. Very nice. Very nice. Very cool. In the 60s. Yeah. Yeah. So he was a rocker. Things were cooler back then, will they? I think. I think we knew less than we do now or we were bombarded less, you think. Yeah. And so there were moments where silence and not having a telephone didn't matter. But now any silence or, it seems to me anyway. Yeah. If anyone walks out of room, the person left in the room picks up their phone. Yeah. I go by bus stops and see every single person waiting for the bus head down at the phone. Yeah. It's just a crazy time. But then you have to think about what are they looking at. Hopefully you're Instagram. No. No. I haven't got any followers. Try, start to be a couple of buses. I think it's maybe a fleet. I think, because I look at it, I can't help it because I'm nosy. And I walk down the tube carriage and people are on their phones and. Almost, I would say some people are doing candy crush, some people are reading the newspaper, some people are watching a tele or a film and headphones. And some people are just swiping. Yeah. I don't know what they're swiping because they're too quick. And that's it. Yeah. Or maybe listening to something that you do, you know, a similar thing in podcast or something. But people are on their phones more than not on public transport. It's an opportunity for you to self-publish those, isn't it, which is interesting. Well, let's come back to that because let's talk. How did you get from Somerset to London and. Or did you go to. How were you at school? I did, I really didn't go to school. I went to a big, comprehensive school. I know I like this. I could do better. Fearful shot. All the time, fighting, terrified of relationships. You know, because I fell in love all the time. And I thought that I fell in love more profoundly than anybody else did. My love was serious. And all that. To complete ego, mania. And so I didn't do particularly when it's going to scrape through. I managed to get into a tech, Western tech, to do a foundation. And then went down to Exeter to do a degree in graphic design illustration. Oh, wow. And then left to move to London. And. What did you decide? Did you do graphic design or did you do illustration? I did illustration. After the first year, you have to choose. And I nearly did photography. It was a real toss up between photography and illustration. And then I said to the people, my lecturers, after the first year, I wanted to find out. And they argued against it. And I still don't really understand why I didn't jump ship. Because I think I should have. In many ways, the way that I'm free thinking and all that. I find some not so much now because I'm growing up. And I understand that it has to sort of tell a story. Or communicate. And I think as does are. But, you know, I've always struggled with that always. And that's why I do my own stuff. I have to. Again, or I'll get down. It kind of for me observing, it looks like all of it's your own stuff. Even though it's. It can be commercial. You manage to just do what you do. Yeah, I do get a terrible feeling sometimes when I'm being over art director. You know, the art director is doing his or her job. And then, obviously taking orders from the client, especially in design, right, especially in advertising, really. And that can be that really gives me a terrible feeling in my stomach. It's just one of those feelings that you have to be honest about. But these days, you know, I'm really professional. How did it manifest itself apart getting a sore stomach? Did you like soak or did you say I'm not going to do it previously? I do it. I do it with sort of resentment and I never, I don't think resentment showed in the work. You know, I basically I do what I was told and maybe that maybe I have a problem with authority. Yeah. Maybe that's it. So you've, have you, you came to London and you just started doing your own thing? Yeah, I went to publishers and magazines and there's a place around the corner, National Magazine House. I went to see all the magazines there. So you actually go in person with a little drawings and I think anything for a long time and continue to do my own work. I look back on it now and cringe slightly. But since then, why do you cringe? Because I think some of some of, there's all very experimental and didn't communicate anything. Was it very different? Do you work now? Yeah. Well, kind of, I've got this sort of looking bag and up to right now. The work that I do is, is all over the shop really. I mean, the meaning of what I'm trying to say is fairly consistent. But the actual application of media to make that somehow makes sense is I have very, I'm in a positive mind. So I wonder what, when will, how that would look? Yeah. What, what, that material and that material look like? Quite a small scale mostly. If I'm given a big space, then I like to call it me. But so looking back on my earlier work, the drawings bear a relation to what I'm doing now, but I was doing sort of financial colourages and stuff on that. Crazy. I remember that actually. Were you busy, did you get any work from the start? Not really. It took a while. And then I started doing drawings, kind of, I always had this notebook drawings and overheards and stuff like that. And that's what seemed to appeal more than anything. And sort of willfully abstracted sort of poetical statements, which no one bought, and I don't blame them. But I think that's the kind of, that's the kind of bedrock through my work is drawings about human life and all that. And that style of work, no matter what the sentiment was, that style of line works seemed to get me quite a bit of work. And then I get sort of interested in some other way of working. So looking back on my way, it's all over the shop. It really is. You are a London icon in terms of your work. And I know when you came to Sydney, not longer after I moved there in 2003, you did an exhibition there, which I luckily got to do the little book. Yes, this was it. This was it. That was super cool. I love there was a quote on a video you mentioned. He said that you were, you talk about observing people, you know, and I think that was super cool. And you overheard someone one day say, "My feelings for you have nothing to do with you." Yeah. And I think that is, you know, we talked about love before, but that kind of is just profound, isn't it? It really is. You singled that out and actually make note of that. And how important that is. It really happened as well. Just up the road on Oxford Street, I was drunk, waiting for a night bus. And these people, there's a couple of men and women having a round. And he said something and I couldn't hear. They were just down a bit, you know, at five, six yards away. And then she sort of screamed at him quite bitterly. "My feelings for you have nothing to do with you." And that sobered me up, you know, I thought that was one of the most profound things I've ever heard. And then about a week later, or a week before I can't remember the order, well I have to swear on them. Yeah, of course. We can't do an interview. I think it was the same, yeah, I'm fucked for that. I think it was almost the same bus, so if not just one, one up or one then, again, after a big night out, another couple of it out, we're arguing. And I couldn't hear what they were saying until the guy said, "Fuck off, of course, I love you." So what she said to him, I don't know, what conversation they have before, but I thought that statement was not quite as profound as my feelings for you have nothing to do with you. But I normally sort of show it as a diptyk, because I think that it was almost the same bus. It's fantastic. Another one I saw it said, "Stop eating with your mouth open, you little shit." Yeah, what was you see to think of that? I just, a lot of people I've met in therapy have a problem with oral massication. And there's one guy I got to know in early recovery, and he couldn't, he'd have to leave a meeting or leave a room full of people having therapies, and so on, if anyone made a noise with them else, it really freaks about it. He couldn't work out where it's from. Wow. And I got really sort of interested in that and looked around, a lot of people do that. And I just, you know, this is my sort of, I wouldn't say it was serious. How else can you eat? Yeah, but the noise, so big noise. The big noise. Really big noise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I find that irritating. Yeah, he found it, you know, he couldn't be in the same room. He fled. So what is it about you that you kind of capture this stuff that probably people don't even think twice about? Because it's magic that you do, and how you portray that, you know, how you draw that is just fantastic. Well, I think it's just, it's humans again. It's just that, you know, animals can't help it. Plants can't help it. Rocks move about and plate tectonics, and we spin around the, our axis and around the sun, and we're in this galaxy, and we're never in the same position. We're moving, we're basically moving through space a million miles an hour, I think. Between 500,000 and a million miles an hour, never in the same space, because everything's moving. We eventually come around after, I just know, is it quarter of a million years? Do we have to fact check this? No, I think I'm right. In the kind of axis of our double helix, you know, galaxy, I think it's something like that. Anyway, so I think about that, and then you see sort of two people with their fists out of the car window shouting at each other. You know, one of them thinks he's not as much as a wanker in everyone, you know, because of that. He perceived his right of way was more important than the other ones, and thus wars are started. Yeah, and it's terrifying. So you're always putting life into context, you're just always thinking about the bigger picture, the planet, perling through space. I think that's where my sense of absurdity comes from, yeah, is that really early on is knowing about the vastness of everything and how little we are, and how, and maybe might have said to me, I've asked him about nihilism, or he's reading a book about nihilism. I see he's reading a book about nihilism, and he said, don't forget there's good nihilism and there's bad nihilism. So what he meant, I think, was, you know, Putin is a bad nihilist. He's you know, a sort of depressing person, whereas someone who, you know, someone like Beckett or someone like that is much more, he understands his pointless, but why not have as much as a good time than much entertaining and humorous time as possible on this planet, which is what I try and do. Yeah. But then I'm reminded about what it is to be, you know, that sort of basic human. I do it myself. I'm not, I'm no way am I an elitist or above any of that sort of behaviour, but that's what appeals to me is the hilarity of the fallibility of the human. And what stopped you from being a stand-up then? Is it, you know, an expressive? No, no, no. Have you tried it? No. I reckon you're good at it. What's your life look like? I mean, what do you, what's your day like? Are you working at home all the time? No, I get up and do you do my insomnia based drawings? And then, and then you got that terrible depression of you post something and then no one likes you. Ah, what a three in the morning. But no, no, no, no. You see the, you see the, the likes hardly growing over the morning. So you're addicted to that? Everyone is. Yeah. I think everyone, whether it's, you know, justifying your existence or whether it's more of a professional thing, I don't know, it's just there and people use it. Plus, I sell stuff on it. So I make more money out of that than pretty much anything else. Wow. The way I think I owe you 90 pounds. No, you don't. You paid. Did I? Yeah, yeah, you did. I thought I did. Yeah, but he quit. I mean, that's pretty cheap, isn't it? Yeah, incredible. Brilliant drawing. Yeah. Beautiful drawing. Beautifully packaged when it's arrived. Guys, get online and buy his work. It's incredible. What about, does he ever get censored online? I got censored in shows. I did a show in the old Woolworth building in New York and there's a really nice sort of floor of that building. So, you know, iconic building. And there are lots of fake adverts and lots of you know, the usual post-it night stuff as well and, you know, doodles. But I did a load of drawings of people having sex from porn mags, but it raised their genitals. Yeah. And I was waiting for, it's like half an hour before the show opened and I knew I was doing quite a bit of work in New York at the time. So, I got to know a lot of people and they were all coming and, you know, I was drinking a lot. So, there was beer sponsorship and all that sort of stuff. Good nervous, but looking forward to it. And then the, the owner of that floor came around, I hadn't met him before and he came around and he looked at the drawings of people having sex, but you couldn't see what was going on because because I deranged all the other tailors. I'm breast. and you know, you know, just, but you knew it was going on by their facial expressions and where their bodies were positioned. And he said that I'd have to go down to staples and sense of them. With what? Post-it note. With, you know, some sort of star or some other. And these were all in clear, fronted plastic bags. So I was okay with that. I just thought, right. I said, "Why do you want me to sense this stuff that's not this?" And I said, "You know what I mean?" And I said, "I don't. I really don't." And then we had this conversation about, you know, it's not my fault. I'm not a Baptist because he was a big Baptist. So with that, that got into slightly ugly situation about religion and not a great fan of. So anyway, I went to staples and got these gold stars, big gold stars, like two inches across, put them on the front of the bags where the genitalia wasn't. And people turned up and said, "Busken on me, I'm just going to buy you." Yeah, they're intrigued. So I just pulled about a four of these drawings. I just put them on the top of the paper that was sticking out the top of the clear fronted bag. Just pull it up. There's nothing there. And they were really shocked. They were more shocked that nothing was there. Yeah. What's the form of collaboration with this guy than is it? I think he actually took it to another level. I forgot his name. Yeah, I need to thank him as a Brad. He was a God thing. Wow. How do you know when you've pushed it too far? Because you do, you look at your work, you're all. Other people, really? Should I like that or not? Other people, you know, who own the space or, you know, publish the mag. You know, it's, I've, and those kind of drawings were, where nothing was happening, the non-pornographic porn drawings. They were also centered in Japan as well. Really? Yeah. Weird, isn't it? Really, really weird. I knew I was onto something as a kind of self-sensorship, but you could tell by this weird facial expression, which again is human. You know, why we're here is because of that face. You know, the orgasmic face. And your, your, obviously, illustration would be exaggerated a little bit, but you don't need, if you look at, if you look at some dotty porn, you know, it's some, they do. Yeah, no, no, no, and no, in a part from me, you look to the porn. Is that what you do at three in the morning? No, no, no. Okay. Many years ago, maybe, but it's like, I find that interesting that, you know, we're all from some sort of weird facial expression. Yeah. I mean, I guess life is your, what is it? Palette or life is what feeds you, the inspiration, or people, I guess, more importantly is the observations of people. And it's done lovingly. It's not, I'm, I used to think I was a cynic. Going back on my, looking back on my drawings when I was drinking heavily, they were, they were cynical and lazy. A lot of them, you could tell, whereas satire is hard work and you got me really careful. And there's a big gap between the two, I think, and satire, we need satire, even though reality seems to be kicking satire out because reality itself is, you couldn't really make it up, you know, but I think that's what I've learned in sobriety is, you've got to work hard at, you can't just sort of be a poet and willy-nilly write it down and that, that's move, you know, you've got to be careful. But I think as, as far as censorship is concerned, I think Ricky Gervais as much as people love and hate him, I think that he says interesting things about, you know, it's about the people who are making the offence of joke. He's joking at them. He's not making a joke about, you know, any subgroup of humanity or something, for one of the better word, he's actually laughing at the people who think that people are different and trying to do other people. Well, there is times when I, you know, watched one of his shows or stand up and I got, "Oh, that was close." And I have that sometimes the same feeling when I look at some of your work. Yeah. Like, "Oh, that's, you know, always clever, but just like sometimes, I guess it's like, will everything have to be so politically correct these days? Does it make it harder for you?" Yeah, it's finished, I made that because I was talking to Sauf, my girlfriend, Mrs. Partner, I don't know, I don't know what to, you know, my very significant other. I said, "What do you think about this?" I covered all the titles related to her. I said, "Sauf, what do you think about this idea? How about in drawings make the most offensive, the most offensive humour with all the groups of humanity that you're not supposed to make fun of? You know, absolute, do not, no holds bad, you know. Just really every offensive comment you can make about a culture or a sexuality or anything like that, you know. Just be so brutal and so disgusting about it. There's, historically, there have been jokes about those people and myself included, you know, I've been called a cracker and I'm so right, you know, I don't, I'm not offended by it. I'm not a cracker. White guy, you know, sort of equivalent. I'm a cracker then. Yeah, and, you know, with anger as well, you know, I thought, "Fuckin' hell, you know, that's fair enough." So what does self say? She said, "Well, what kind of thing are you talking about?" And I said, "It must be a very tolerant woman." She's intelligent enough to know that it's an experiment in offensiveness, but the offensive of offensiveness is based on historical othering of other people. So all the kind of, you know, terrible jibes and insults towards a particular group of people. It's not made up these days. It's been there since time began, you know. It's a sort of cultural, it's a crann thing. You know, if you go to Italy, for example, this is a very mild excuse. You go to Italy and you, you go out for dinner one night and then they say, "What, you know, where were you last night?" So just the village at the road. So what did you have to eat? And you say, "I just have spaghetti, you know, with pommadoura or something like that." Yeah, it's not very good there, is it? So there's immediately, they're saying that the village next to them doesn't make this beautiful thing. So if you time it out by a million and talk about religion, races, country people, where borders have changed, all those things that we have to deal with, I think it would be interesting to actually embrace the terrible insults that people give. And also you have to think about certain groups of people have different insults for other groups of people. And another group of people, aiming at the same group, would have a different sort of insult. So I find that fascinating. When we're supposed to be sort of, you know, everyone really would love it if we all got on. But you see, you mean capable. So I think the most offensive cartoons might be funny. Is that just like protecting our tribe? I really dread to think. We're threatened by others perhaps. I don't know, it's that fight. But it is funny. I mean, I have to say it's incredibly funny a lot of it. It is. It's like watching little Britain. You wouldn't be able to put that show on today. Like in a very short period of time, that's become incredibly offensive. I mean, probably always was. But one of the best, you know, most popular TV shows out of the UK for a long time. Yeah, yeah. It's some, no, you're right. I mean, some of it's, I mean, some of it's so offensive and so funny. But it doesn't seem to be, I'm not sure if it's aimed at anything, but what I would like to do. No, I probably won't because it will be so offensive. And I'll get, you know, more gold stickers. Maybe no one will care. I don't know. But yes, it's similar, but just, you know, really terrible traditional insults towards somebody else. I'm just going to give it a go. And then because I know I'm doing it, then I'm not the, I'm not the person making up these insults. I'm just showing people where those into, it might be a trouble, I didn't, I might not do that at all. But what you didn't say, what's Sophie, what she said, does she say, does she say, do you love her? She said, I'm not sure about that. Oh, yeah. Okay. So it gave me a funny look. Did she say, can you show me an example? No, no. Did she find, did she love your work? She does. Yes. Yes. I should have the same kind of, I was going to say, you know, mine for that. Just, just, yeah. Thank God. So with anyone, you know, nor could she. What does she do? She works for a woman. You end. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she racistly. Yeah. Get a match. It works for a person in Chelsea, who is a patron of the arts. Is a, is a kind of all-encompassing way. She's very interesting. Brilliant. Wow. Wow. But they have a great relationship and they do stuff. We talked recently about what's been quite some time now. You mentioned, I think when I was living here, that you were struggling with boost. Yeah. I went through that phase for a long time too and kind of, I haven't drank for like, I don't know, 12, 13 years now. Good for you. And you have, you call it sobriety. I never used that word, but it's a very English word. Yeah, it's because of AA really. And, you know, I got, so would be, yeah, in, I can't stand anything that's based on faith. I got a real problem with it. Yeah, and AA. And AA, for the other way. Yes, AA is seven of the 12 steps that you go through. However helpful some of them are. One of the reasons I kept drinking even though I went to AA to try and stop drinking was because of AA, I've only seen that. So I'm writing a book about it. Wow. About how to, it's called, how not to be a drunk. And I've written it and now I'm going to start sending out some obses. Well, let's come back to that. Let's talk about, like, have you been drinking, were you drinking your whole life? Yeah, starting early age. Going up wine at the table, half wine, half water. Yeah. Going to see my nan. About like age two or something or one? Yeah. Yeah, about five. Well, so, I mean, we just, we were just giving it. Yeah. And I was quite hyperactive. So I think it was medicinal. Well, some parents did that. A lot of talents do that just to, and then becomes, the kids don't become alcoholics as a result. Yeah. They're less inclined to binge drink after that. But I think it depends on the character of, you know, a lot of people blame addiction on trauma or, you know, they say, oh, my dad was a drinker. My mum was a drinker. My great uncle was a drinker, so, like I say, it's genetic. I don't believe that it's passed down. I think certain genetic code can be passed down, propensity towards sensitivity or stress. And that mismanaged, conturned into alcoholism, almost by luck in a way as well, you know, you just start drinking a lot. You've been sensitive. I was very sensitive as a kid. I was scared of the men's team of everything. And when I discovered how fast the planet was flying around. Yeah. Why don't we spin off? But the spinning top things spin off. But why not, our planet? Yeah. That's mass and gravity. What? I'm not a glass of wine. Yeah. And also, you know, it was cider countries. There was a lot of cider around. I grew up between three cider farms. Not strong, but. No. That just. Just like that. Strong food. Yeah. That just lukees and. Was it shepherd? I remember. I remember being incredibly sick from drinking cider. It was a worse feeling. Yeah. Yeah. And what was your. And what was your key? And what was my worst ever? So did you. it became quite a problem for you? Was it a long time that you were in this situation? Well, before. Yeah, you know, our colleagues drinking at lunchtime, cheap beer and all that. That's before I went. That's my foundation in Western Superman. And then down in Exodus, drinking and drugs and, you know. Before that, in fact, because I was quite tall when I was 14, 15 years to get to pubs. Come to pubs. Yeah. Bristol was brilliant. We just had the road. And the dugout was a club I used to go to, which was, you know, all the kind of Bristol bands used to go to. And that was heaven on earth for me. So lots of speed and lots of drink and. Did you be crashing head eggs? Did you become someone else? Did you give you confidence? Yeah. Did you give me confidence? Yeah, it gave me the ability not to feel nervous, which, you know, the more research you've done, the more therapy I've done, that sort of shyness is ego, which is, you know, which is really, really. And I opened it for me. Had it happened in what way? You think everyone's looking at you, and they're not. Is that ego? Yeah, it's self-indulging. To fire up. Because that's how I felt. I was painfully shy. Yeah. And I never put ego to that. I just, like, what's wrong with me? I think that. Your shyness might be different to mine. There are different forms of shyness. Mine was. You know, I don't fit in. I feel like an outlier. I feel ostracised. I don't, you know, play football. I was great because it was a team that. And you concentrate, and you know other thoughts get in the way, really. You've got to play. I'll always play football until I was too old to do it. But one thing I've learned, which is really resonated with me, was that my shyness, my particular form of shyness. I think a lot of fellow addicts would agree. That need to. Either have a partner, you know, especially adolescents when you're. When your hormones are going mental, you know. So you're really on edge all the time anyway. And I couldn't really. I was so self-indulgent, so that's ego. My shyness was internal and brutal and full of resentment and full of jealousy. And envy and all that. It wasn't pleasant. So drink got rid of that. I was able to sort of be more communicative with other people, more so in the pub, underage. And how did it affect your art? I don't think it did very well to me. I don't. I regret all that, to be honest. I don't. There's nothing I can do to change it, but I really. I regret that I fell into drinking drugs so quickly for such a long time. It was all manageable. I always hit deadlines and people seem to be pleased with the work. But a lot of this time I ended up in isolation just drinking out of the bottle really. Did you have big lulls? Yeah, one gigantic one. You're okay, it's one of mine, is it? Yeah, fine. Fine, it's been. I mean, we're 70 years old, you know. It's my wife's dad. And I don't think I can't imagine drinking again. How did lead to kind of realizing that it was a problem because a lot of people don't realize? Well, a few choice comments from the mates, you know, and that was banged away, because, you know, that's what our colleagues do. And our couple. I wasn't really a drug addict, I tried everything. But booze was the kind of main. was my. And I think, you know. Co-dependency crops up and people precincts. That's another one. Love me, love me and all that. And that's what you go as well. Was Sophie on the scene then? Yeah, she was brilliant. Because she kind of understood it. She understands all that. How long have you guys been together? Ten years. So she's been. She was. I couldn't have done it without her. Was it that you found kind of true love that you're looking for, you know, said earlier on? You fell in love with everybody? Yeah. As a kid. But was it. did you feel that that. Meeting someone who you really value, it changes how you dealt with your life? No, I don't think anyone could have done that. I was lying. I've never cheated, but I was lying. I have done with other people, but not with so. Which I'm glad about. I lied about my intake and my head bottles. And I didn't even know I was hiding them. I was so drunk off the time. She said, "When we cleared the flat out to move, there's all these bottles that come that were putting them there, you know?" And that really told the story. So your body's in this constant state of repair. Yeah. And constantly in that hangover mode. Yeah. And I think that was the thing that really first. Really kind of weighed on you. Me personally, when I was doing that was. You had to. You had to get up the next day and deliver it. You had to get on to your job and, you know, looking after kids or whatever. Yes, you have to get on to it. I don't have any kids, so I don't know how parents do it. You know, hats off. It's incredible, really. I got away lightly, it seems. No, but it's. Every individual has their different things that are going on in their life. I think it gets to a certain stage where you can't stop. Because if you were to stop, you'd die. That's how it felt for the last five years when we're drinking. I really felt. If I didn't have a drink ready available at Arms Length or just up the road. You know, when you run out of money, because money went up and down, it still does, you know. I don't own anywhere. I have no assets and I'm fine with it. But there is that sort of fear of where it becomes a medicine. It's not enjoyable anymore. It's just you need the alcohol to be able to get through the day. Yeah, and it's. Absolutely. It's everywhere. I mean, in our industry, every function. Yeah. You know, pubs open at 11. Yeah. Or earlier, sometimes airports people are drinking. Loveler plants appear at 8 a.m. Or earlier. I used to get to airports early. Did you? Yeah. Hang on, your flight's not to this evening, Mr. Morrow. Have you ever been refused to access to the plane? Nearly. In Naples, nearly. Yeah. Or have you spent the whole flight in the toilet? No, no. I've been all right. You were a fine people, right? I'm managing it. Yeah, because, I mean, if you're not allowed on the airport, on the airplane, and, you know, it's going to totally fuck your day. Yeah. Because you need to get to get through duty free to get, you know, the hard liquor to get on the plane to get home. And then you can isolate and just think about your trip abroad and think about how things are with, you know, God knows how we bottles of vodka. A terrible way of being. I mean, this issue is, I'm glad we could talk about it. We have that in common, which is, you know, I think it's not uncommon. I mean, it's, there's no alcohol ban. It's not like drugs. It's illegal. It makes a fortune. Yeah. And, and it is a mega problem globally. Yeah. For people. It really fucks up lives. In this country, it costs the NHS, they estimate the last few years that they estimate. I think this is just before lockdown. So lockdown might have put the numbers up. But it costs the NHS something like. 3 billion a year to treat addiction problems, mostly alcohol, but it makes the Treasury 11 billion. So, you know, it's a win situation for, you know, capitalism basically. And if it was invented now, would alcohol be allowed? I don't think so. No, it's pretty. And what happened? What was the turning point for you? Like, what made you go to AA or just. I went to AA. What was on? I went to AA on and off a long time before I actually got sober, but it's just something happened in my head where I just. This is it. This is really it. You know, it's not a case of. Oh, I'm going to take it easy for. You know, be a response, we're drinking. I did all that. I went to Hackney Bloody, you know. Alcohol awareness center in Mayor Street, you know, there's people throwing up outside and it was really rough, but, you know, I feel for them because I know what it's light. And I am that person. And so I tried response for drinking, lied in my diary, how much I was drinking, because you got to keep a diary. To yourself. Yeah, to everyone. Yeah. So, I don't know, something just happened so far left me. Yeah, diary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So far left me and said, get your shit together. This is your behaviour, you know. There's a certain sort of twatishness about being a drunk as well, because you think you're not, you know, you do know, you try and exude this sort of, oh, I just like a few drinks. It doesn't necessarily silly. I mean, really, you're desperately sad and broken and all that. So she left and then I had some, I must say, I had some money because my mum died, bless her. She died with mesothelioma, which is not a pleasant way to go. So, she sold her little cottage, me and my sister sold her little cottage. She borrowed somebody off of it, so it wasn't as much as we thought. As her cottage, she'd do what she'd like. And so I used that money to try and stop drinking. If you still don't mean just like, go to therapy and all that, it just didn't, I couldn't do it. And so for left, I remember calling her and just saying, I'm going to go into rehab. Can you help me book somewhere? This is it, it's a serious note and you have the flat for a month, and you're going to go away for a month and sort it out. This was September 2017, I think. She said, I wondered how you were, it's been, you know, a few days. I said, how long? She said, five, six days. I said, Jesus, I thought it was like two days ago. So I lost in blackout four or five days, you know, three or four days. And that was scary. The next day I was in rehab and I haven't touched a drop since. Fantastic. And it wouldn't have been easy. No, it was, it's, people think the rehab centers are like some sort of country clubs, they're not, they're hospitals. It's scary and horrible. And the guilt is a shame really. I think it's just like, what, you know, God, I'm all that time I wasted. I know friends of mine in Australia that, that, that, um, have them drinking for a 20, 25 years and every single day they go to AA. Yeah. And that's phenomenal. Just that. So yeah, I didn't want that on me. I didn't want that on me. I don't like that, that they're kind of higher power stuff and giving over your will to God. I mean, it doesn't sit well with me all that. So there's a way of doing it. I think, um, which is what I try and explain in the book is, is, um, how to not worry about. You don't have to remind yourself that you're never going to drink again. So AA does remind you. I don't want that. Just let it go, man. Yeah. You have to give it over to God. No, once you, um, have you ever like here early on? I stopped for three years and then I started again. Someone just said to me, how go on? Have one. It's not going to make any difference. It's, you know, you'd be really, and I don't know why, but I just did it. So you're coming. Yeah. I was lacking in confidence at that time. And then it just started all over again. Um, but yeah, the, when I finally stopped, I mean, you just in a day about people saying, well, have a drink. Have a drink. You know, or why are you drinking? Yeah. It's like if you're vegan or vegetarian, people say, oh, have some meat. Why do you eat meat? Yeah. I just, if you're knowing that you used to, but once you get over that thing where people go, they don't care. They don't say anymore. Or if they do, it doesn't even, doesn't affect me anymore. Yeah. But, um, bit the, how do you feel? I mean, you must feel great. It's, um, generally speaking, it's an improvement, definitely. It's the ability through sobriety, I think, your favourite word, through not drinking. It's, um, things are clearer. They're just a scary. But there's a sort of management that I'm, almost like a mental mantra that I can do in my head that I'm being taught with therapy. I'm research and how the addiction center works in people's heads, especially in addicts, obviously. But the reward system and all that, they know the way that the brain chemistry and physiognomy works. Or in our case, doesn't work properly. All that gives me great knowledge and be able to know that if something is happening that is a bit scary, life itself, you know, everyone has these problems. I don't need to, as I always did, go to the pub, go to the off-licens, or, worse, just drink at home on my own, and watch pornography, and then watch romcom, you know, sad existence, you know, lonely. So, you know, tense pornography, and then guilt for watching pornography and feeling so sad. And then, you know, romcom, cry, cry, cry, I say, oh my god, I feel so terrible. This is my life. Oh, no, I have another drink. Be alright if I have another drink. So, it's that. And then do a drawing, you know, and the drawings of Capsule, they're so bad. I know, yeah. Really self-pitying and horrifying. But to answer your question very succinctly, it's a million times better and I'm much more honest about everything. I'm not as scared, I'm not as worried, not as anxious as I used to be. It's interesting that, like, the reasons for drinking to give you the confidence or to escape from the, or the what's going on, when you don't do that, when you stop doing that, those feelings still remain. Those feelings of, you know, I just get incredibly anxious going out socially. Yeah. Give that a drink quickly, a few drinks just to, or do a talk, I'd lock back a couple of odd kids, you know, just to kind of give me confidence. Me too, yeah. And without that, it's actually parent petrified. Yeah. In those situations. But there's something in, like, I don't know, I was, I don't have any specific coaching, but I kind of learned to live with it or accept it and acknowledge that this is a feeling that hopefully will pass. And it did. And so it became kind of, become stronger at being in super uncomfortable situations that I was, I guess, drinking to numb that. And then to be able to just be in the situations, I went from being incredibly shy and kind of, I guess, fearful of people. And fearful, I guess, of people that are, that you look up to or whatever, that you're, you're not good enough perhaps. Absolutely. Yeah. And that I still feel that, I still feel that, honestly, still feel that. But I think to do my podcast, I've done, I know, I have a 25 now with you. I come to the conclusion of the feeling, which is really amazing feeling, is that we're all human beings just trying to do our best. Exactly. Yeah. And that is, I was wonderful to feel that as opposed to, you know, your lower down that, you know, you don't know enough for your, you know, whatever. But I think nobody really knows ultimately. It feels like the first person to have a kid or a relationship or, yeah, run a business or whatever it might be. And we're all just trying to, trying our best to make it work. I think it sums up brilliantly, Vince. It's that lack of that fraughtness that sort of follows you through, certainly followed me through a day, just a day of fear and worry. And I had a panic attack since I've been sober. Oh, wow. So that was obviously drink related. Yeah. Because it affects your brain, affects every organ in your system. But that kind of, what do they call it, syndrome when you're, you know, you have. Impostor syndrome? Yeah, imposter syndrome. So you have a massive ego and low self worth and that cliche. There's a cliche because it's true. I had a big, big, you know, I still do have a healthy ego. Yeah. So there you go. Whereas before it was full of horrifying, you know, guilt and envy and all that, you know, it's a really poisonous mix. And because it's because of that, the no-dranked you must then it gets worse, you know, it's self perpetuating. Well, that that was just syndrome thing is interesting. When you talk about like you, for example, is that your work is so personal and it's signed by you and it's out there and it's highly visible. Like, I guess you're not hiding behind a brand or a business. Your each you is often on a, in a notebook and a scrap of paper, but it's, it's your statement observation and how you illustrate that is kind of. It's not illustration, you know, it's art and it's so, it's, well, we can talk about that. But it feels more towards art and it's therefore highly personal. Yeah. And I guess it's there for the world to see whether you like it or not. And I guess by putting yourself kind of front and center like that, you're open to feeling that is it good enough? That's all, I mean, that's an existential, you know, I talk about that for days. I mean, what is it all mean? Just five minutes later. All right. And I suddenly, my life's work. And the feeling of being in the post at the same time. Well, I have to do part two then. I think it comes down to looking, because I've been looking back on work, because I've built a shed in the, you know, you know, scene that looks cool. Yeah, well, that shed was there when we rented the, when we weren't going to look at the flat, because it's a rental in Muswell Hill, Levy Muswell Hill, gorgeous, you know. And I just, it's a bit pricey for this, you know, for this size and the land. For this size, you send a bit of size. For this size. For this size. Summer set, actually. Yeah. Slippes in. Yeah. And it's a come down, come down into the back garden. Down there, down stairs. I've this, because we're on the first floor. There's a basement. They've got a nice garden that they've shed of their own. There's a little walkway that goes to the left. And at the back of their garden, there's a fence. And there's another bit of the garden. And that's where the shed is. Two shed's one for so, for month for me. Wow. And there's a dilapidated shed for the garden stuff. And I built another shed, because I was fed up with spending, you know, 50-kid a month. There wasn't enough room. Because I got my, I got a, you know, self, so there's a way for a few days. So I got a shed kit and put the foundations down and built the shed on my own. Jesus. And then sealed it with like, expanding foam. And then also polythene. And sealed it on the floor as well. But there's enough air so we wouldn't get condensation to it. With suffocate. And that's, yeah. And that's where I keep the bodies. [LAUGHS] So that's where all my archives are. So I've been going through them. You know, archives. How are we going to start? You know, is there any need for them? I don't know. Oh, I mean, that brings a lot of memories back. But as, back to the point of the imposter thing, I look at sort of old work. And I cringe. I do. Really? Yeah. Yeah. But you still keep it. Yeah. Yeah, that's the need to go. Do you sell? Do you sell a lot of that? Well, I haven't been tried because, you know, there's a-- There is that process. We, you know, well, I did a book with John Lederie. You know, he came around. And he said, well, what have you got to show me? We'll do this book. And I said, well, I've gone through all the work. I've got this stack that's about, you know, foot height. On the big table in the middle of the old studio. And he came in, he goes, here's 20 quid, go out for lunch, and come back in two hours. Why? He said, because I'm going to edit this. So when that for lunch came back, steaming two hours later. And he edited it down to half an inch of stuff. Because that's good. He's got to think of it else because that's not enough for a book. Oh! Yeah. But he was right. He was absolutely spot wrong. Yeah. You see, this is just, you know-- Well, how did you react to that, you bit pissed off? Well, luckily I had a few. So it wasn't too bad. And you know, I vividly remember that. And it was a good lesson. It's a good book. That was, yeah, the blame of our announcements. That's 2003. And it was a miraculous book because John said he'd design it. And his crew, our Browns, eternally thankful for. The printer said he'd do it for free. He wanted a show off. And the paper company said, we want to work with the printer. We're a new stock. And the binder said, this is going to be really difficult to bind. We'll do it for free as well. So it was one of those things that just happened. It was one of the months in the lifetime. John's good at getting those deals on me. He's brilliant. Yeah. And I look at the book now and I don't cringe. Because of good editing. Whereas in the shed, I can have dark moments. Let's talk about the new book that you're doing. You know, the book on sobriety. So are you doing that because you feel that the world needs that? Other people need help. Well, is it a piss take on it or whatever? No, no. It's a humorous look back at terrible situations I got myself in because of drinking. So all of the stories are about drink-based-- not, you know, it's not tom foolery or anything like that. It's fucking, you know, shitting the bed. And-- Yeah, terrible, terrible stuff. And the lying and all that sort of stuff. But because I can't change that, I've sort of turned it-- and this is not to get away from the responsibility of my past actions. Because there are certain things that I can't really remember clearly. And they haunt me. They really do. But besides those, the ones I do remember waking up in a small park in New York, not knowing where I was, just of Bleak Street. But it was locked. I was in some of those little trying private gardens. Yeah. Well, how the hell did I get there? Carole them. Or the night. The petrily smell, tasting my mouth. Cocaine, so, you know. Yeah, I was there all night. They went straight back to the hotel and raided the meanwhile. So these are all told in very humorous ways. I've written 50,000 words, it was not very much. But I want it down-- I'll be illustrated as well. So I want it down to about 10,000 words. So it's an easy-- it's in three parts. There's an introduction of why I wrote the book, how not to be a drunk without AA, because there are other ways of doing it. And I don't mean having your stomach staple or that drug that means that you throw up if you drink. But just mentally, a way of not drinking again, of all the stuff I've learned through the scientific side of everything and the therapeutic side of everything, and how they marry together, allow my day-to-day living without drinking. So it is. It's an arrogant-- for me to say I want to show people, but there are people I know who can't stand AA. And I think that there are books where people have written, where AA is, you know, pillorid and stuff like that, which is to find-- I'm not really trying to do that. I'm just trying to be gentle and just say, there's a way of being sober. It doesn't allow an AA. It doesn't allow any sort of belief system. It's just up to you using this. Your bloody fault you drank doesn't own up to it. And don't hand you well over to God as you understand him. It's just him, Jesus. We're pun intended. It's just be good to yourself. And look back on this is why the story is exist. Look back with humor. What you did is an idiotic human being. So you've extended your life by this change. Is it that you realize a new value of life or you've valued life? I've always valued life, but I got it wrong, profoundly wrong for a while. And now it's not a case of Ixie clearly now that, as I said before, the hurdles and obstacles and horrible depressions are still there, but I manage them much easier, much with more care, I suppose. Do you coach anybody like any people that have been in similar situations to help them through that? I'm not a sponsor though, because that's being a sponsor, you have to take them through the AA book. And I don't want to do that. Because at the time people can't see the situation. They're in potentially the better. They can see the mess probably that people. I'll always help people who ask always. Yeah, that's part of the deal, I think. Because someone did it for me. And I'll always be eternally grateful. So I will do that. I've helped people not through me being messianic, just someone phoning me up and going, fuck, I'm real. I've got-- I've done all to do. We might get a few now on this podcast. Let's talk about art versus illustration. Or can we talk about that? Because you call yourself an artist and an illustrator. Yeah. Aren't you an artist? Yeah. When is art and illustration illustration? Art is when you're not told how to do a drawing. Or not-- it's a lot of illustration to me. In my illustration life is based on other people's ideas. Be it a text or be a meeting or be a product you're trying to vlog or an idea. Whereas my art, which is 90% of what I do, is stuff that I think and feel compelled to put to paper or make a sculpture or photograph or make a book or whatever I use. So when you left art college or illustration college, did you-- was it 100% illustration or was it art then as well? Both. Both. I've always done my own stuff, almost like an antidote to being art directed. This is not against art directed because art directed is abrilliant. And everyone has a role to play in the creative process when it comes from some sort of fruition to product. And if it's visual, there's a visual sighted that there normally is. And there's information that that has to be put into a situation where-- or a form where it's understandable to every-- as many people as possible. And I think that that is a skill in itself. Art, on the other hand, is just what you want. But when you-- early on in your career, obviously needed to make a living. we're doing more commissioned work versus art. - I was definitely I'm looking for illustration, but yeah. As I go and see all the mags and design companies with my portfolio, my oversized portfolio, full of terrible drawings of charcoal drawings, life drawings and things like that. And I didn't get me anywhere. So I read lots of books and decided to do a book cover for the books that I liked and then took a smaller portfolio and then people were saying, have you had these book covers, have you been published? I said, no, just my interpretation of, you know, Couch 22 or something. And they go, "Well, come back when you've had something published, but you're a publisher." So why didn't you commission me? And then I went, "I have to come back." That's weird. Yeah, but that I'm the lot. Was it nervous as being the first to commission you or something? Maybe. Maybe. It was difficult to start with, but then, you know, I just had shows in the quasi-illustration galleries, you know, as well. But I don't know. Well, I'd find a gallery in short, it's before short, it's became cool. When there were no shops, there were just two pubs and, apart from the 20 furniture shop, SEP. Oh yeah. That was always there. We were on Kurt and Road. Actually, down the rock we're Kurt and Road, I'd rather gallery because landlords had, you know, we're much more imaginative then. Yeah. That was run it for a year, it was bloody brilliant. Oh, awesome. Everyone used to come here to get huge amounts of beer and vodka. (laughs) Sponsors. Did you, 'cause it's interesting because when people kind of make, you know, make a living doing what they're doing, like a bit like, I mean, you mentioned John Ellery. I mean, he's been on my podcast too, where he was obviously studied design. He's from Cornwall, originally too. Down that way. Yeah. And he manages to kind of do both. He does his business, which is the, you know, design, branding, communications, and he does his art. Yeah. Kind of parallel, but obviously it's very much linked. And I'm very intrigued by that. And obviously for you, you go from kind of, I guess, being very successful in terms of commercial illustrator. I was for a bit, but then now you're doing 90% art. I always did. Always. Okay, all right. I think I should have read more about your past. No, no, not totally. I'm known as, you know, it's a kind of people go, what are you? You know, I'd say, well, I'd probably make more money out of illustration over the years than my art practice. But I spend much more time just making pictures and doing drawings and writing and, you know, all sorts of stuff that I have. I'm compelled to do. I can't help it. Yeah. And also it's an antidote in some of the more stringent, directed drawings or image making where, you know, you're told to change that bit and change that bit. Like, God for Photoshop, you know, because before it was hell, redo it. And then the line wasn't right and stuff like that. It was all very, you know, and my hero, Saul Steinberg, didn't like that either. So I always, you know, blessed him for that. He was incredibly difficult to work with apparently. I never met him, I wish I had. But I think that I don't really know to be honest. I've been tied to, you know, I love when someone finds out and says, we love what you did. Do you want to do some drawings for a product? And I say, what have you seen? And they say, this drawing. And it's normally something that I've just done. So they say, we've got something like that for some packaging. And you go, OK, so you do that. And it works a treat. You get paid handsomely for it. They buy the rights and everything's jolly. You know, it's brilliant. I love that. But it's normally based on something that I've just done. You know, I did a water kind of a sardine, which I go to my mate Dan. And it just says above the side. He says, water kind of is quite lakura sweet drawing of a sardine. Sardine looks a bit lonely. And above it, it just says, I'm just a sardine. That's all it is. It's very plaintive. And I think about sardines. Because I love being on the water as well. So I've got to think about fish. And through heart, my illustration agency, they saw this anchovy. I posted it. They saw this anchovy. So we want something like that. That was a sardine. Sorry, yeah, the sardine. For some pet food. Some really posh cat food. Oh, yeah, all right. So we did it. And it was great. What sardines? Or what was it? It was turkey. There was a turkey. There was tuna and chicken. And all sorts of pet, I think it's called-- It's a slaughterhouse. It's like patty for cats. It's a called cat person. And I'm really enjoying doing it. It's quite a slog. Because there's a American art direction. Lots of people involved. There's a big brand, big company handling it. Could you change your eyebrow on that person? Because there was other bits of drawings to do for packaging and stuff like that. So after changing people's eyebrows, and after changing the expression on some people's faces, then I have to go and just do a bloody drawing about something else. But my point is, all that work came from a painting of a sardine I did out just for the hell of it. I'm not incredible. Yeah. So I think that-- Are they not senior at other work? They probably had. But I want to scare them off some of it. Yeah, maybe Americans. Because I look at-- yeah. Yeah. Well, I did I'm talking of which. I did another show in America in this big loft space. And these big drawings were 13 to 14 inches, mostly black and white of kind of odd scenes, slaughter and torture and sex and insects and all sorts of creepy, corny stuff. But I put logos, bottom right normally, bottom left or bottom right, of well-known companies. It's called fake advertising. And one American actor had to come up to me, he said, you guys, in Europe, you're so far ahead of the game, these are just incredible. These would never run in America. I said, they're fake, they're not real. So these didn't exist. And he said, and I said, no, no, these are just-- This is art. Oh, God. But they're so accurate. They kind of fell for it. He bought a couple after that. I think I remember seeing that. That was a fantastic series. So what's next? I mean, have this book coming out? What do you think is going to be coming out? I'm still on the opposite side. So publishing? Or are you being found a publisher? No, I want a publisher. OK, publishers listening in. Yeah, that'd be nice. But I need to send out-- I've really struggled with the synopsis, which again, I've got good mates who-- my friend Harry, who's used to be at Sunday Times, books section, he just knows about words and how fripper he can get in the way. How abstracts don't work in a synopsis. So I've learned an awful lot about how to write clearly and objectively, but with humor at the same time and try and get the tone of the book across. So that's just about done. So that's going out in the next few weeks. Or maybe wait till after Christmas. Get that out. But the dream is illustrated as well. So the way I normally draw is kind of quite linear. Drawings of situations are far more self-int, after a night on the source or a week on the vodka. And they're not pleasant. Because they're cartoons. Yeah. Are they animated? No, that'd be nice. Have you ever tried-- I've just done-- yeah, I've just learned how to animate Photoshop. And I'm really interested. From May to Mine. I'll show you afterwards. Yeah, and also just in terms of-- have you ever done-- I can imagine just like you walking through town or a program or a film on your observations. Yeah, I did that for Samsung. Oh, did you? Yeah. Sort of a morning in the life. And remember those that weren't notebooks pre-iped? Yeah, they got a little pencil. They were crap, really. And they put words into my mouth. Sure, Samsung. Yeah, sorry, Samsung. But they were-- They were getting paid a lot for that. No, I got paid bugger all, really. And they also misquoted me and said, who needs notebooks when you've got the Samsung, whatever it was called, that piss me off. You know. Yeah, that's what happened. Nothing. Well, you just walk around town drawing-- Yeah, I was on the bus drawing people and looking at that. And the drawings were right. You probably find them online. But they misquoted me. Because actually drawing on paper is gorgeous. It's a gorgeous feeling. I've got an iPad, and I don't get along with it. I've tried and tried and tried. I take it on holiday. Two weeks get into it. Is it-- I mean, obviously it's low tech, isn't it? It's so simple. There's a blunt pencil and a piece of paper. And an idea. Well, that's the thing. If you've got three different sorts of paper and six different drawing implements, the permutations of what you use-- if you've got three ingredients on a page, so to speak. The permutations are immense. A red bioraline gives you a different feeling from a posca red line and stuff like that. So I think a lot of the drawings that I do as much about feeling for me when I do them. So if I make a choice to choose that slightly softer blue, as a lead, the lead in the pencil is slightly softer than a similar blue over there, then I use a prismacolor because it suits my mood. So it's very self-indulgent, stuff like that, but it makes me feel good. As a kid, were you drawing all the time? Yes. Another great thing about my dad is that the usual kid's thing is dad, dad, what shall I draw? He got bit bored with me asking. And he said, "Go into the lounge and draw the carpet." And we lived in this, yeah. The carpet was beige, not his sixth is beige carpet. It's all, he could draw it. Just see how far you go. So I just got down, you know, lying down, starting drawing the carpet and the fibers and stuff like that. And it drove me insane. I'll never forget that. It's a good lesson in your life to look at things. And then that really inspired the drawings I'm doing recently, which are about particle movement, subatomic particle movement, and the movement of galaxies. We're in the middle of it. So we can look in, the spiral going inwards, so to speak, to subatomic, you know, quarks basically. And we can look out to, as far as we were, kind of what physics allow the eyes and our brains can compute in the way that it's all accelerating using red shifts going out within every direction. That freaks me out. So I'm in the middle. In my shed doing drawings with burnt wood on paper, which is made of wood, trying to enjoy the trajectory of trajectory, of subatomic particles and galactic movement. How about that? Well, there's something in your work that's around massively around reduction, you know, complex. As you just talked about, such complex observations and situations that you make it incredibly simple and understandable. Like, how do you do that? Well, like a fine whiskey, like distillation. Well, it's just, you're, it lines are very simple lines that just. Yeah. It, yeah, it's not cool. You're living a very complex world. We're highly bombarded with all kinds of visuals, sophisticated visuals that you never know are real or not real. Yeah. It's a complexity to our lives. There's some, there's refreshing in terms of your. It's, in, they're intelligent, of course, observations and. But simply executed. Yeah, it's really, I mean, it's really, really. You know, to try and get that perfect line, whether, even if it's written, you know, something you're over here and you edit to make it sound clear or. It's marked better. Like a good script and a bad script, you know. Just the use of a comma or a use of the word, you know, the difference between nice and pleasant, you know. That makes a huge difference in what you're trying to say. Same with line, same with drawing a line, you know, I think. Someone, you remember Mel Kalman, yeah, he was asked, well, he gave a talk down at my college in Exeter. And he was asked, you know, "Anyone could do that. It's only a few lines, you know, you know, you know, yeah, but I've been practicing for 40 years." Yeah. But that's why it's cliche. Yeah, I guess the strength is not only the illustration, but the words that you put with it. And so that's. Yeah. could it be powerful, the. the observation. Yeah, and that. Will you get it language English at school? Not really. Yeah, what I was called, I remember in the changing room we were playing football. And. I used to be underestimated. And they all laughed at me instead of a sharp dictionary. [laughs] That's hilarious. Even my own teammates, you know. My dad, like, you know, like books, and so did I. Yeah. Yeah, it's some. Like, middle-march, for example, Georgelia, I can't read it because it's too brilliant. You know what I mean? I find it. I find the beauty of the words and her use of words and structure gets in the way of her wisdom for me. I have to keep attempting. One day I'll get it. But, you know, I. Silas Marlon, I could read. But middle-march, I just find it overwhelmingly brilliant. Hmm. I think if you were born, you know, I don't know. If you started doing what you're doing ten years ago, would you be working with, you know, a pencil, a pen and a piece of paper? I don't know. Because I don't know. People do. I get to art colleges when I teach. You know, I give it. I don't really teach, but give a talk. Hmm. People still show me notebooks. And that's all we. I find that very reassuring because. Yeah, that's good. I mean, the drawing. If you were to ask, you know, all my mates who draw to go out and draw, you know, six people who kind of move them in some way. You know, you know who the artist was. Not just because of the choice of person that they draw. Because simply because of the line. Yeah. The person or. Yeah. Style. But just, yeah, exactly. So, with an iPad, I don't think you can get the same as that. I think Hockney tried, and I still think it's. Not like his drawing. His drawing on paper was etchings. Paul, do you think he designed your life? Recently, perhaps, the last seven years. Depends how you look at it. Really, yeah. The whole kind of philosophical thing about what now is. And whether it's deterministic or whether, you know, you've actually had a free will and made decisions. I find. I find the whole intellectual and philosophical side to life. Incredible exciting. And it gets me absolutely nowhere. Because there's so many different ways of looking at it. Yeah. And I don't know, is the answer. I really don't know. I've had something to do with it, Vince. Yeah. Absolutely have. And you've influenced so many other people too, which is super amazing. I don't know about that, but it's. Thank you. But it's. I think getting over the fear of being alive is brilliant. And I think I can say that I actually made an attempt to do that. So, that's. I'm proud of that. And I think you designed it in that sense. I think your new book. If that can help do the same thing for others that have been credible enough. Well, hopefully, yeah. You know, it's. I'm not banking on anything. You know, if people read it and a couple of people email me and just say, "That's really funny. It really helped me out." Not to take it so seriously. And actually laugh at what. And how you were. But also, you know, understand the seriousness of. The decision to have yet another one. Yeah, and I'll put my share in the morning. And actually what life looks like once you pass through that. Yeah. And how better life can be. Everything improves. Everything. I think even fear improves. It's a better form of fear in surprise, you know. Yeah. Paul, it's been fantastic to have on the podcast. Thank you so much. It's been great. Thank you, Vince. And thank you for the magazine "Counter Culture." It's all right. A great body of work. Was that an exhibition recently? Yeah. That was in "Jellis Gallery." It's where we. It's a sort of reflection on where humans meet when they don't necessarily want to. So like kiosks and cues lines. And you said the post office is your favourite place? What is that? It can go off in there sometimes. People are very honest about how they feel. Yeah. So you get really choice overheards in there. Is that when you get your supplies from too? The buttons, the by-roes and stuff. I find most of them. Oh, do you? Yeah, I've got. They're everywhere. Yeah. Batching shot. I've got a load of batting shot pens, you know. But. The post office is a good. There's one the other day. The person behind the till said, "Dumb." But no, this is written in Arabic. I know you're trying to get it to Tehran. It's written in Arabic. You have to go through Kent before you go to the sea. My people speak Arabic. He said, "Yeah, but we don't hear in Britain yet." Oh my God. You have to get it translated. And then when it gets as far as where people understand Arabic, I don't know how far that'll be. Beyond Athens, she said. Oh my God. It was such a sweet because they were trying to help. Oh my God. What are you doing? I was standing behind. Now I was just thinking, I hope this works out well. I hope you understand that you've got to translate it into English to start with so it can get beyond Kent. Oh my God. I could just imagine that. The frustration that poor guy trying to explain it. But he said to me, like, "My people are older than your people." You know. Metabed Damia. Oh my God. In poetry. No, that's right. He said, "Persie." You rush home and do a. On the spot. Keep it a keep a notebook at all times. Oh you never never not write down something Even if you think it might be cheesy just writing down. Oh my god. Oh my god. Write it down because you'll forget it. And I always say this I think it was burlhos the composer conductor said there's nothing sadder than a person who wakes up in the morning Forgetting the brilliant idea they have the night before. Yeah, I think that that's horribly true. Yeah Cool. That's good Paul. Thank you. Thanks for listening in today's episode of Design Your Life with my good mate and British artist and illustrator Paul Davis. Trune the next episode where I catch up with Dr. Esther Sternberg, the global acclaimed expert on well-being in the workplace and one of the women who has changed the face of medicine. Thanks for listening to this episode of Design Your Life. You'd like to find out more about how you can design your life. Head to the website at designyourlife.com.au If you found this episode inspiring, please don't forget to review and subscribe. If you have any ideas or like to get in touch, we would love to hear from you. Send us an email at [email protected]