Design Meets Neuroscience: Building the Future of Cognitive Care With NOON

(upbeat music) Welcome to the brand Alchemist Podcast, where we uncover the magic and mystery of how some of the world's most sought after and newest brands were started and continue to evolve. I'm your host, Taja Dawkendorf, founder and creative director of Pulp & Wire, a CPG branding, marketing and launch agency. I'm also an investor in emerging brands and own a few of my own as well. Over the last 18 years, I have worked with, created four and grown, hundreds of companies in the CPG space, like Ryan Snacks, Alagash Brewing, Ocean Spray, Petco and many more. Now, here's today's episode. (upbeat music) Hello and welcome to the brand Alchemist Podcast. I'm your host, Taja Dawkendorf, and today I'm excited to be joined by two incredible founders from noon, Jane Wong and Dr. Julie Wong. Newed is a next generation cognitive wellness company pioneering the future of mind and mood. They're harnessing the power of neuroscience and plant science to create delicious, functional products that help us nurture our greatest asset, the mind. A little bit about my guests. Jane brings 15 plus years of award-winning consumer product design experience for brands like Google, Apple, Nike, Pepsi, Walmart and Visa. She is a sought-after mentor and visionary at the intersection of technology, culture and well-being. Julie is a licensed, naturopathic physician with experience in neurophysiology and a proven company builder who has skilled multiple hybrid businesses. She's a global leader at Integrative Medicine, dedicated to personal wellness. Together, Jane and Julie are shaping the future of cognitive care. Let's dive into the alchemy behind noon. - I had the pleasure of meeting both of you. Or actually, maybe Jane, it was you that I met at Expo West. Is that correct? Where? - Yes. - Because I'm using samples. And I was floored because I'm not a huge DVF fan, but I did not notice it in your gummies. And you were like, "Gotcha." (laughs) (laughs) You're such a good job. Not only crafting a beautiful brand, but crafting a really beautiful formulation, which is honestly the balance between both Jane, you and Julie, with design and science coming together. But into this tasty little bite that I brought home and gave to my kids who are athletes and they loved it. And they're used to taking mushrooms and all the ingredients that were in there. So once I read your ingredient panel, saw how clean noon was as a gummy and the fact that you were putting in all these amazing ingredients and that it tasted really good. Because sometimes you'll get a gummy and you just want to spit it out because it's disgusting and that's the end. (laughs) - She gets it. - So I'm really excited to have you both on today. So we can talk about this product that you've created where it's going and also the backstory. So let's start with the past. Jane, do you want to start? Give us a little bit of that backstory and Julie, I'll have you fill in the blanks there. 'Cause I know that your relationship goes back to, I think Jane, when you said you were 12 years old. - Yeah, that's right. So Julie, I have known each other for a long time. Reconnected as adults to start noon. And the way our origin stories for noon really started out of burnout, which I think a lot of people around us can resonate with. Of course, during COVID, I think people just, the vocabulary around burnout and also what that looked like just started to bubble to the surface. And I think it's great that people started to recognize the importance of cognitive wellbeing, which I think for many, many years was not really a topic. And so for us, for myself personally, I had burned out probably the second time. And as one does living in New York, trying to grow your career and trying to do everything all at once. And it put me on this journey to figure out how to help myself in a more holistic way. And I had gone to the doctor previously and they had just given me two weeks worth of steroids. That was their solution to peel my inflammation. And I just thought this was crazy. So again, it put me down this path to think about my roots. Julie and I are both Asian and TCM, which is traditional Chinese medicine, is something that is well practiced on a day to day basis as food is medicine. And for me, it really got me curious about a lot of the herbs and things that I used to have as a kid and how could I bring that to the forefront of my contemporary living, which when we were younger, our parents tended to boil herbs a lot, but I just personally did not have that aptitude, I guess, I would say. And so I really put me on this journey to figure out how I could do that, but in a form that was tasty, easy, convenient and something that I felt like was also very powerful for me and effective. Julie, you wanna add to that? I mean, yeah, I think where we started to come together was around conversations of, well, what is it that people are seeking and using, for me, it was from a clinical side, people were coming in with burnout and other issues, hormonal issues, skin issues, digestion, all these issues. But everything really related to the mind, that sort of mind-body connection. And I really enjoyed that part of, well, how can we make the health and wellness and healing a lot more exciting, a lot more delightful, joyful, something that you're looking forward to as opposed to a daily chore. And so that's when we started to, yeah, just brainstorm and work on these kinds of products in our brand. Before I jump into formulations, I wanna talk about the ingredients next. How long did it take you to formulate noon? It took me, I know it's something a loaded question. Yes, I think it took us really like over a year. Some, you know, part of noon's DNAs that we had, one version of the company and we rebooted it into a second version. So we took the formulas that we had worked on for years and then remade them into the ones that you see now. So we had a base that started years ago before we actually launched. And we have a neuroscientist and our team that Christine, who has also been part of the formulation process with us. So we're taking Julie's background as a natural pathic doctor. And Christine is a neuroscientist and putting, you know, their beautiful minds together to create these formulas. And yeah, it took quite some time. There's a lot of research that went into them also looking at human clinical trials. So again, when people think about the efficacy of herbs, we really sought for the right synergies between them but also something that was science and clinically backed by studies. - Well, and I think that's gummies get a bad rap sometimes, right? Because it's like, oh, they're not effective. It's just a candy. And I think that's where, I would say in the last couple of years, we're seeing the consumer pushback but we're seeing products change. And being like, actually, we can make something that's super viable and going to give you the right amount of these mushrooms and these herbs in a gummy format. So I think that we're seeing a really wonderful change. But Julie, I'd love for you to talk about the power of mushrooms because you have these beautiful ingredients with the chill, focus, and sleep. Those are the three categories of your gummies and these activated ingredients. 'Cause I was going through your website looking at all the herbs and everything that you're putting together to really help with this burnout and cognitive health. But let's talk about the ingredients 'cause honestly, that's a big part that makes you different. - Yeah, I mean, we love mushrooms for a number of reasons and that we wanted functional mushrooms to be like a big highlight part of an core ingredient in our formulas. One of the, there's a few advantages to using and leading on mushrooms in this way as an ingredient because they have dual triple quadruple functions as ingredients. So you'll have different parts of the mushroom that have different benefits, but also just the phytochemical constituents will have different targets. So we're able to get benefits to the nervous system and that's what people would primarily associate with cognition. And so you're seeing research on lines, main, really famously, and those helping with memory and cognition and focus and that's really what's in our focus coming. Cortiseps is also there, that's a great blood flow kind of support. We have Rache and Chagga and Ashwaganda and like at a high level, when you're looking at these mushrooms in addition to the cognitive benefits, these ones may also be known for their adaptogenic benefits. So that's a class at Herbs that helps the body adapt to stress. It brings your lows higher in terms of energy over the longer term and the highs lower. So it's just getting you a bit more steady, a bit more level. And in turn, that sort of stress connection is modulated. So you get like a more improved and sustained energy. And then with that, when you do that over time, you get immunity benefits and skin benefits and all these other things. So in our sleep domain, we have a lot of looking for those synergies and like dual and triple functions in combination with the other ingredients. So mushrooms are really traditionally that have been used for thousands of years as well. They're so easy to grow. They're so sustainable. And in traditional Chinese medicine, they have a lot of balancing effects. So they'll balance the in and the in the body. So we try to combine those sort of historical uses with also the neurologic benefits, the cognitive benefits. So with different products coming into the market, how are you standing out in the space? I know one thing is your packaging is beautiful and you're working with cognitive wellness and neuroscientists and all of these amazing people. But what really, how are you breaking out from everyone else being like, no, we are the focus mushroom gummy that you should be taking. I think there's no silver bullet answer. I think it actually is a combination of all of those things that helps us stand out. Part of it is that there are very few companies out there focusing on cognitive wellbeing. Again, like the mind being as we call the boss of the body, there are with it, I would say there's only handful of companies. So already there, we have sort of a standout quality because again, the competition is a little bit lower as well. Part of it is brand. There are a lot of wellness companies out there. There's a lot of supplement companies as well. And so for us being a design rooted brand and also science back, we're trying to balance these two worlds very carefully. And that's how you see us expressed brand wise. And then when we talk about our principles, which Julie coming from a deep science background and also expert herbalist and myself coming from design and innovation, having core principles that we hold to that we hold our products to is really important. Not just for the sale, but also because efficacy is almost our number one principle, it has to work. And as you said, there's a lot of skepticism around gummies just not having any effect at all. And this is one thing that we design very intentionally into our products, into the look and feel of our products, the dual layer gummy, which Julie can talk more about is also chosen specifically for its efficacy, speak to efficacy, its capacity to actually load enough ingredients, which a lot of gummies can't have a lot. And so visually, again, that's been done on purpose to be very attractive from an efficacy perspective. We want everyone's first time to be the best time, you're right. And also again, thinking about price point, once upon a time there was premium wellness was everything. People could afford the $90 subscription a month. And I think we're starting to see everything kind of come down. So being more accessible was a huge principle. And again, that also makes us stand out when you have such a premium looking product, be more economic, that's something that again puts us in a different category than many others. And then again, having a great science team that is actually part of our founding team, not just hired out, it's really at the core of what we build. Maybe you can get a cost, efficacy, and beauty altogether in one. We're trying. That's what we're going for. So I do want to talk about this dual layer gummy. It is the coolest thing. I don't think I've seen anyone else in the market with it. And so correct me if I'm wrong if anyone else is doing this because I haven't seen it. But they just look like these little gems, like these little moments of, I don't know, deliciousness in this dual layer. I mean, they're beautiful. So I mean, Julie, yeah, explain how that came to be and honestly, why that's so important to your brands, efficacy. Well, the dual layer is a big advantage because like Jane had mentioned, we really wanted to load as much as possible into the gummy. And we didn't want it to degrade, which can happen. And so we still thought, OK, the dual layer was something that we were seeking. But the loading is really where we're first to market and patent pending and everything. So we're really stuffing so much into the gummy that it's-- and what's great about it is with the dual layer, we get enhanced bile availability because it means that you can get sort of two layers of-- or two areas of absorption. So with the chewiness, and like you said, it has had to taste good. It tastes good. We were really going for a tasty gummy so that you would chew it. And then the bioactive ingredients would start to be absorbed immediately in the mouth. This can create a benefit within 20 to 30 minutes, which is much faster than waiting for absorption through the gut. And then so we have-- but we also have both. Like there's also ingredients that are going to be absorbed and then got. But by being able to have different stacks of ingredients that will be effective through mouth absorption versus gut absorption, then we were actually balancing that through our formulation. So we'll have maybe something called three-- have you heard-- we're talking about nootropic stacking. So a lot of people will use that terminology. We were able to achieve this in the dual layer by having different kinds of nootropic stacks within each formula. And I love the idea of a stacked gummy. And the delivery system. Because when you look at a traditional gummy, it's kind of like, again, I don't know if it's going to give me what I want. It just feels like candy. In this case, I'm even just looking at them. You're like, all right, something's different here. Something's going on. So they got me able to stack my gummy and have it from a two point to a gut health. All of those pieces come together. It's unique. And I needed to be sugar free. That was a really big part of this process. Because when you're working with stress and the mind, sugar can really-- it's significantly worse, I would say. But it has a much bigger impact than any sugar substitute on the body. Because if it's the reward system that gets triggered, so it was really important for us to be sugar free no matter what. And that was also achievable. So the biggest challenge brands have, especially when they've got these beautiful formulas. And they're doing something different. And they're trying to get out to market and CPG. And they're new to the space is how do you get people to know you exist and how do you get them to convert? So Jane, maybe you can speak to this as the creative brain and marketing genius behind the brand. How have you gotten in people's hands to get them to convert to buyers? Because that's always the biggest thing. It's how do we get in front of people? Because that landscape changes daily. Yes. And I would say we definitely have some good steep competition and healthy competition here. One thing before I get into that, I would say, there's always the thing about not overanimating. And we learned our lesson in early products where product market fit was actually something that we really needed to make sure that we could lock in. And gummies, we really honed in on the format, not because it was popular, but also because it's very shareable. And it's more social. And this is also a principle of our-- and sort of ethos that we have that-- and Julie's kind of touched on it, that wellness should be more accessible and socially accessible and also shareable. And the gummy format for us allows people to talk about it and share it better than a tincture, better than a powder, yeah, better than a lot of other formats, I would say, from a supplement perspective. So one big thing for us has been to take what we traditionally can see as a supplement and put it into-- and transform it and put it into a different world. So for us, allowing gummies to have a lifestyle around it is something that we're trying to create. So we've been able to do events that cross over into food, design, technology. So experientially, I see noon as an experienced company powered by product. So really, what we're trying to do is help people create new rituals, develop new behaviors, and the gummies are vehicle for that. And the fact that we have this gummy that can be put onto a martini pick and infuse in a drink, it's not-- we're putting it into different worlds on purpose to allow people to imagine life with supplements in a very different way. And this has been part of our strategy. And I think it's very unique to us because, again, of our very specific brand positioning. So it's breaking out of supplements as a boring ritual and putting it into something that's more social, more lifestyle driven, more fun. Again, more connected to food, which is something that people have every day, right? And making it, as Julie also said, delightful. What we also know is that people act and buy things with emotion. You don't necessarily buy the thing that's the healthiest for you. You buy the thing that you feel most attracted to, or you love because you've developed this emotional connection to it. And that aspect of consumer behavior is something that I'm really attuned to. And we wanted to really think about how can we make this product that people understand more than just a basic supplement? So putting it in their hands, getting them to try it, the moment they have it-- again, like I said, we want the first time to move the best time. That is proofing itself. So we've been trying to do a lot more sampling demos, getting into people's hands as much as possible, so that they have this memory and connection to the product. And they just come back. So I've got a question about-- I love that you're building this world. It's not just wake up in the morning, take your gummy, take your pills, take your liquids, and then go on your day. You're creating it into being like something that you look forward to, something that is an opportunity, but you're creating, again, those other worlds. And I love the cocktail example that you gave that it is these sharing moments. So with gummy is-- I mean, in supplements in general, sometimes you have to take them for a month. You have to take them for a week before you start to feel the effects with noon. How quickly can someone start feeling the benefits of the product? Well, we have built in sort of three categories of time frame of reaction. So the first, like I mentioned, is our fast acting. We needed to have fast action. So that can hit between 20 minutes to up to five hours. That's sort of what we would call fast, immediate reaction. But it's usually 20 to 30 minutes. You start to feel something. And then you can get that sort of steady ramp up, and it can last about five hours. And then we have a set of ingredients that will hit in medium action. So that's sort of between one to three weeks. And those are those ingredients that if you take them consistently, if you take something consistently over about one to three weeks, you're going to start to see a benefit. And then we also have the long action and long acting benefits of certain ingredients. And we saw studies here that would indicate benefit if you were to take them between four and 12 weeks. And so we wanted to make sure in each of our formulas, focus, chill, and sleep, that there's all sort of like two to three of these. So everything had to be fast, for sure. And then we would get definitely medium, which are typically-- there are other studies, but it's typically the same ingredients. That would also give long action, long acting benefits. So that's how fast you can have the benefit, but also some folks might benefit with the continued use. So ideally, looking at those ingredients, I mean, they are great for long-term use and just overall health and longevity. But you can, I guess, jane to your point, if you're in a social situation, you can just pop one or two gummies and just feel relaxed instantly. Or if you're having a hard time sleeping, you can share it with a friend. They're going to get those benefits in that moment versus needing to have that chain reaction over time to have them ramp up. Exactly. Yeah. And I would say that we're also dealing with a culture of instinct and gratification in everything, not just in your subaltern, but in everything in life. And we also kept this in mind where so many of the ingredients, especially the mushrooms, are more long-action. Ingredients. You're not going to feel the benefits of lines mean on your first three uses. It's going to be long-term. It takes time for your brain to have that neuro regenerative capability and capacity. So for us, it was important to make sure that people can feel something, the desired effects, almost immediately. So again, that proof in the putting type product was also very present. To make sure, again, the first time they have it, they can talk about it immediately after that. Yeah. And sit around with each other and be like, oh, actually, I do feel relaxed. Or I'm going to get it out. And most people tend to take things when they need them, not ahead of time. That culture of holistic, every day is not present yet. So we really needed to make sure that people could actually get the relief that they're seeking from the products. And there is something around buy-in that's so like our psyche, like our minds work this way, where we need to know it works and to connect it to the action that we have taken so that it's a reward. It's a cue reward. So there's the science even of like queuing, taking action, getting a reward, and then repeating the behavior that we wanted to build in. That's why not only are we looking forward to it, but there's an immediate benefit. And then hopefully it can encourage as habit loops that help with overall wellness. I love that. And yeah, you're right. People, you're right, James, people, it's short attention spans. And we're doing it. We're doing it. And we don't establish routine the same way anymore. And we're quick to jump to the next shiny object, which is honestly, I think we're a lot of other health problems have, is you're just not giving the supplementation or the wellness journey that you're on enough time to actually feel the difference because you're so quick to jump to the next thing or to get bored. So I think boredom is another-- we've got to keep people excited with things, otherwise. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So ups and downs of having the company and building the brand-- Jane, give me a few of those. Because we all have those trials and triumphs and tribulations and things that happen along the way. Well, I would say some-- I'll start with the highs, because people love-- I mean, I tend to start with the lows. Just like, let's talk about challenges. No, let's start with the highs. The highs, I mean, first of all, since starting the company, it's been so cool for me personally being more from the design space to actually work with science in a closer way, in a more-- and bridge these two worlds where I think there is a lot of synergies. But you don't always get to experience it first hand. So that's been really positive. I think being able to have exposure to a lot of other founders who are in the same phase, in the same cohort in terms of where we are in our business, it's been really amazing to learn from other people. Also, people have done this multiple times. And I think our founder network-- not just in wellness, but just in CPG and food, Bev has just been really, really incredible. And it's been so amazing to have these very global connections, because everyone's discovering people online. So that's been wonderful. And I think also seeing the impact of our product on people. We are getting a lot of DMs. We're getting people just tell us how it's really transformed their lives or people-- their loved ones, a lot of people are buying for their mothers or their friends who are going through something tough. And that's been something that's super rewarding, because that's what we built this product for. Challenges, though, however. I would say this is probably common for every startup. Is probably cash flow. This past year has definitely been hard to raise. And so we've really bootstrapped this company, Julie and I. And that's been a very incredible struggle and challenge. But we're pushing through in a good way. But I would say that has been a very interesting part, where once upon a time, raising was a lot easier. And people were throwing money at the craziest of ideas. And now it's definitely a little bit more conservative and people are holding back. So that's been a good challenge, but we're pushing through it. And then I would also say, yeah, the competitiveness with marketing. This one, for us, as a cognitive wellness company, there's something almost ironic to have to play in the same, I would say, games and algorithms that reward constant attention rather than intention. And for us, our company is really about intention, intention with time, intention with consumption. And I would say what we're experiencing is also if you don't post enough and you're not online enough and you don't interact enough, your brand starts to get less and less engagement. So that's been interesting for us to navigate, I think, and find our voice in all of this. That makes sense. And it's not ironically overwhelming us. One our whole mission is to help people find that balance. So trying to help people not-- Julie, you can add here to-- Yeah, exactly. But those have been very interesting challenges, I think. I mean, so I would agree. I think those have been especially in this climate in the last gear. There's been a lot of tumultuous activity in all markets. So what has been, I think, a real joy and up for us is, for me, is this is when not only just seeing the individual response to tasting the gummy, the reactions, but really breaking through skepticism and barriers around concepts of what is valid healing or valid wellness. It's actually really cool to disrupt these ideas and to see it happen. The rose colored glasses come off. Maybe it can be simple to be well. Maybe it is possible to not be sick and always looking for sickness is one of those mental struggles that I encounter a lot, at least personally in my practice. But I think this is something where noon has been such an up for me to notice that, hey, it's possible. It's possible for there to be something really cool, on-trend, delightful, but also it's actually really good for you. And it's a no-brainer in that. So I love that. And I think we're seeing the uptake from a business perspective in terms of retail, reorders, customers from both B2B and a B2C side. So that to me is like a huge-- it's just such a joy to see that what you're doing matters, and it makes difference. In terms of challenges-- [LAUGHS] One of the challenges that I find is really-- I really believe in sticking to the principles. And it's also about balancing that, I think, with walking the talk. So making sure that we're taking care of our health, we're not burning out. We're putting our health number one and being well, while still meeting all those demands that change as mentioned around competition, being integrus, having integrity, and having-- yeah, just meeting all of the practical demands, financial demands, of running a company. So yeah, that's a challenge, I would say. Big one. I mean, CPG is tough, especially when you're in the last three years into your point. VCs drying up and hard to get funding and cost of goods go up and manufacturers and everything changes. But I love what you're saying. It needs to be effective. It needs to work. But at the same time, you also need to be effective, and you need to work in your jobs, and you can't have burnout, and you can't be taking bags of gummies a day to get through it, too. So it's kind of like you need to practice what you preach to your point. 100%. 100%. And we talk about it a lot. Yeah, we talk about that a lot. So-- Like, where do you need to take a step back? Where is it OK to say no? Because that's my biggest thing. I'm like, it's fine to say no sometimes. It's just acknowledge that and move forward and be like, this doesn't serve me right now. I need to go on to this next step and then come back to it. So there's a lot of that in CPG that we're always trying to get to the followers, more-- to your point, more exposure, more likes, more sales, which is so important to staying alive. But you also have the power of saying no for your own health, so that you can continue to have a viable business and your own viable health is also incredibly important. Thinking about all that, which usually comes down to growth and innovation. And what are you doing next? What does innovation and growth look like for new at this point? Kind of looking at the next two years, but also new products? Or you like, hey, we love where we're at right now. These three skews are the best. And we are happy. We're both happy and thinking about many new things. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I think because cognitive wellness is such a white space, it's really fun for us right now, because we can dream up any product we want. And it most likely doesn't exist. Or some aspect of it might exist. But what we're thinking about, there's so many possibilities. And yes, we're making an adjustable now. Like I said, noon is an experienced company powered by product. So when we think about experience first for everything, you're not going to solve your cognition challenges just by eating something. And for us, cognitive well-being is very 360. It's very lived experience. So we're thinking about other things like neuro topicals, neuro fragrances, maybe even venturing into objects that think about mood and connection. There's so many themes that you cannot solve just by eating something. And I think this is where we can have a little bit of fun to experiment with, to try new things, to venture out of just a gummy. That can be quite exciting for us without revealing too many things, obviously. But I think it's fun because the world is very open for us to create, which I think is really, really fun. But in terms of brass tacks, growth, and where we think we'll be in a couple of years, we're having some very big and serious conversations with some retailers. So hopefully you'll find noon all across the US very soon. And in Europe, we have a lot of interest there and entering into hospitality. So those have been really, really fun brouts for us. And also dreams that we thought about at the very beginning. And so things are coming to fruition soon. That's exciting. I love the idea of being able to think about cognitive well as beyond just the food of a supplementation. To your point, as you mentioned, fragrance or objects. I mean, that's so fascinating too, because it is. It's all about stimulation in different ways. So being able to expand beyond just food and supplementation into other spaces just has such a wonderful dynamic. It's very sensory driven. Yeah. So that's what we're thinking about. When you think about all your senses working together, how are we addressing that as well? What does the timeline look like for something like that? When you start thinking about products, I mean, the company's young and you're building and you're growing and bootstrapping. But when you start thinking about some of those pieces, do you see them as like five-year goals? Or are you like, oh, actually, if we could make this one happen tomorrow, when we had the fun to do it, we do it. Yeah. Really want to take this. I thought you could go. I have this tendency to really underestimate timelines. So-- but so my answer to that would be, of course, under five years, of course, because when it comes to the principles, as long as we stick to the principles of working with the nervous system, and it physiologically, in the way that it's supposed to work with natural ingredients, natural things that only enhance cognition and don't create added issues, then if, as long as we stick to the principles, then we can-- we're open to making different products and different categories. And we have our other line that we are of products outside of the gummies. We do have our chocolates. So-- Yeah. So we want to work there. But I would say for them like a time scale perspective, we're very much in-- we're as in prototyping and iterating quickly. Our speed to market is definitely a thing. Being too soon is also a thing. So we're really trying to hit the market with things that we find valuable at the right time. But we're also into testing and iterating quickly. Because again, being too precious about something, you might launch too late or find that it has really poor product market fit. So for us, being able to be more nimble and to test desirability, feasibility, all of that with our customers is something-- it's like a program that we are very adamant about doing. So that by the time this actually comes to market on a wider scale, we know there's going to be quick adoption, because we've actually tested it. There's so many brands that just launch something, because they wanted it to see it in the world. And then they realize that no one actually cares. And for us, that's not a path we can afford to go down. So testing and learning is really important in that process. So for us, trying to be scrappy sooner and just try more things is actually very important to our process. Yeah, I think the idea of fail fast, but thoughtfully. Yes. And fail fast is a very tech thing, but I would say it is about, yeah, fail with intention. Let's just say that. I mean, you can't really feel like if there's two options and risk mitigation. It's learning. Learn from it. Right. It's learning. Exactly. Yeah. You never failure. There's-- you've learned from it, and you're able to move on to the next thing. Yeah. Yes. If you can't move on, then maybe you have failed. But for us, it's always like we're climbing up the mountain, little by little. We're not trying to plan and do the whole thing all at once. If it is about this iterative process. What is some of the best advice you've been given? And coupled with that, what advice would you give other CPG brands looking to just start out in supplements? Julia, I'll give you that one first. Well, there's two things. One specifically around sales. It's just like at the end of the day, if you have product and you can sell it, you just have to work on sales. Everything else aside, there's that. And that helps a lot with focusing energy and time. And we're like, oh, we do have-- we have more than we think available to us. But something that I've been told personally, that's really helped in business development and business process in general, has been consistency. It's all about the discipline to take consistent action, as opposed to big action. And this is usually phrased through, what is it that we tend to underestimate what we can achieve in a week and overestimate what we can-- or in a day and overestimate? Am I doing this in the inverse? We can overestimate what we can do in a day and underestimate what we can do in a year. And so that has helped me in terms of developing consistent habits around every aspect of the business and creating that structure. So if I'm going to work on R&D, it's going to be this time every week for that kind of thing, or that sales this time every week. So I really try to try to build in habits like that. And it works in health too. So that's tomato the same. Jane, how about you? What advice would you give people starting out and what's some of the best advice you've been given? I feel like it was advice via an adage. And I said this on a previous podcast, because it's really stuck with me. And I only really got it after I learned my lessons. But it was first-time founders care a lot about the product, second-time founders care about the cost of acquisition, and third-time founders care about the exit. And this has really stuck with me because when we did first noon, we put-- or I, rather-- poured so much energy and thoughtfulness into making this product. And it was so premium and so beautiful and so nice. And everyone said all the-- gave the right feedback. But what we found was that it was so premium that nobody wanted to use it because it felt too precious. And our margins were too low. So again, that's first-time founder. You're like, we've got to make this perfect and beautiful. And then now I feel like I learned my lesson the hard way. And as a second-time, part two, almost round two, founder, everything we did was think about the margin first. And actually now that we are negotiating all these distribution deals, that has been the one thing that I think we're so thankful for, that we have the room to negotiate and also more cash in hand because we have a very high product margin. And we felt the pinch with the product had a much lower one because when the cost of goods are high and it's really difficult to move more nimbley. So we've been really-- I would say not lucky because we did this intentionally. But really, we've had a lot of flexibility because we've actually been minding our margins as the number one thing before anything else. And I think that's also a litmus test for any new product we have as well. Because if the margins are not good enough, we're going to struggle for sure to sell it. Yeah, it's not your number. Your number is number one. Yes. And I think as someone who comes from design, I would always put product as number one. But no one ever really teaches you the business of products or inventory businesses. So now we've got a little smarter, let's just say. [LAUGHTER] Well, I want to be mindful of time. You both have been amazing. I know your days are busy, so I have two more questions for you. First one is, what brings you joy every day to keep building what you started? Jane, I'll let you go with that one first. OK. I think for myself, it comes back to building a world. And I think for myself, noon is-- we're creating a world that I have never seen before. And not just from the mission that we're trying to accomplish, but also how we're touching people, reaching people, changing behaviors, and seeing this manifest in the world and seeing the positive feedback come through has been, is the thing that drives me, knowing that we are doing something that matters, and that has true impact on people. It's not just personal satisfaction. It's really that the mission that we set out to do is actually being achieved. And that's very simple, but that's what keeps me going, because I know we're actually indexing and pushing the needle. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking almost the exact same thing. The whole life background is seeing people kind of in the trenches every day, and hearing terrible stories are coming in unwell. And mental health is so at the forefront of what's needed, I think, in our societies that are encouraged-- modern society, encouraging isolation, hyper-individualism, as opposed to connection. And I think what brings me joy in this business is really witness and see and be a part of a world that's where happiness is possible, like it is actually possible to be connected and also have healthy boundary, but be connected in these ways. And that we're able to touch so many more lives than through this form factor than through one-on-one conversation. So I'm very grateful. So as you're building this beautiful world of noon, with these gorgeous products and this connectivity through beyond supplementation, what help if any are you looking for as you grow the brand? Throw it out there. You never know what the universe might chuck back. Maybe some good VC to help push everything forward. I would like a CFO. I would like a CFO. Yeah. Yes. That's a role. We need that role. We need someone to help us sustain ourselves. What is going to happen? So many hats during the day. You're like, oh, I can do all of this. And you're like, wait a second. I don't want to do this part. It's switching. True. It's like, it doesn't matter how much we want to do it. It's the switch between the modes. It almost feels like, yeah, I would love to have it. Someone really dedicated with that. Yeah. That's all part of the group, right? Figure out the things that you're good at, things you're not good at, and then fill in the blanks. That's right. Is there anything I haven't asked you about new? And that you're like, oh, I just want people to know before we wrap. Hmm. I mean, last little morsel. I feel like you got it. I mean, why now? Why now? You know, what else? You know, why cognitive? I think we got a lot of good points. I mean, I hope that anyone listening is just super excited to go get this packed gummy that is all of this amazing cognitive wellness that is going to not only make them within 20 minutes feel amazing, but also give them long term health benefits as well. So anyone listening, visit noon dot world to learn more about the brand and stay connected with the brand on Instagram at its new, yeah, it's noon dot world is your Instagram handle. You got it. You both have been lovely. I wish you nothing but the best of luck and, you know, health and wealth in all of this because what you're creating is honestly, it's beautiful. It's it works. It's going to change people's lives. And I'm excited to see where you go with the brand. So thank you both. Really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thanks for sharing everything with the world. You're the ones creating it. I'm just here to open it up. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the brand alchemist podcast. See you again soon and be sure to hit subscribe to get updates on all future episodes.