Der verheerende Korruptionsskandal in der Ukraine

[Music] I'm Daniel Retschitzacker, the topic of the day, the news podcast of "Standard". [Music] While daily Ukrainian cities and villages have been exposed to Russian attacks, there is now also a corruption scandal in the country. What has happened with these accusations? And what do people think about it? Let's talk about it today. [Music] Daniela Proker, you are a Ukrainian correspondent for "Standard" and today in the podcast I greet you, Daniela. Hello, thank you very much for the invitation. Daniela, we are talking today about a corruption scandal in Ukraine. It is expected to happen at the state nuclear power plants. What should be the reason? Give us an update. So, Energoatom is, as you just said, a state company and manages all Ukrainian nuclear power plants. So, the nuclear power plant Rivne-Khmelnytsky, one in the Oblast Mikolayev in the South Ukraine, then of course Saporizhia, which, as we know, is under Russian occupation, and of course Chernobyl. And now you have to know that the share of nuclear energy in the Ukrainian power production has increased significantly since the attack. So, the share is about 70 percent. Basically, of course, the Russian attacks on most coal and water power plants. And what the anti-corruption authorities Naboo and Sappo have been doing in Ukraine for more than 15 months, is that, among other things, they should have invested in a highly sensitive area, namely in the construction of protective equipment for the energy infrastructure, so that it is not destroyed by Russian drones and rockets. And specifically, it should have worked so that the suspects were targeted, which should have used the dependency of the application of Energoatom and demanded money. The share is that you only have access to applications if you pay 10 to 15 percent of the cost of construction as tax money and the total amount should be 86 million euros. And the authorities called this implementation operation MIDAS and has also published transcripts and a few minutes of a total of thousands of heard-of conversations on YouTube. Of course, the accused people who wear all the nicknames in these transcripts and do not appear with nicknames, of course, did not know that they were heard and therefore did not have to talk to each other. And these conversations, of course, also show a side picture. If you talk about business, mostly in Russia, there is also a lot of fuss. And then, for example, very lapidar things are said, how should we finance these protective equipment for the energy infrastructure at all? That's a shame for money. Daniela, just one detail question that surprised me now. You say that the authorities themselves have published these transcripts on YouTube? Yes, exactly. There was a video that almost reminded me of Netflix, where the leaders of the authorities pointed out to themselves and just looked at the camera and explained what they were doing there and what kind of transcripts there were. Now that you have already mentioned, it's about a lot of money. It's about a highly sensitive area. What we haven't talked about yet is who these people are exactly. Who should have done the wrong thing? How important are you in the Ukrainian politics? You always read that this is going on. In this case, it's about the biggest corruption scandal since the beginning of the war and in the history of anti-corruption authorities. There is only the Maidan Revolution and what you have to say is that these reports were not closed. So far, there have been domestic investigations. Some individuals were taken into custody and some were invited as witnesses. As witness, for example, the former Defense Minister Rustam Omerov was invited, who is the Secretary of the National Security Council at the time. And as I said, it is important that there are no investigations yet and the completely underpossessed authorities are not at the end of the work yet. But we can look at who has returned so far and who has fled the country. And these are of course important names in Ukraine. In the center of the corruption scandal there is Timur Mindich, who has recently fled the country before the domestic investigation. So he was warned on the right. And this businessman Mindich is just a close confidant of the president and member of the production company Quartal 95. He belongs to the president and his wife. This is a roundabout of the company that produced, among other things, the series "Diner des Volkes" in which Zelensky played a president before his time in politics. And back, the Justice Minister Hermann Kaloschenko was also back. He was still an energy minister a few months ago. Then there is the energy minister Svetlana Chuk, who was still an environmental minister a few months ago. And then there is Andriy Jermak, who led the presidential office a few days ago. Well, what do you mean by that? It sounds like the half cabinet of Volodymyr Zelensky. Yes, that's right. It is really shocking when you look at yourself, who could hang everything in there. Now you have already spoken to Andriy Jermak. I hope I'm pronouncing the name correctly. I'll correct myself there again. As you have already said, this is your close confidant of the president Volodymyr Zelensky and also one who has participated in many projects, such as negotiations and so on. How difficult is it for the president now the departure of his right hand, could you perhaps say, while you are in the middle of negotiations with the US? Well, you're talking about it. It's just a very clear moment. But you have to say that the people here in Ukraine actually start from the beginning. So, since you have experienced these negotiations, a decision was made by the corruption of their president and also a decision-making communication. And it has remained for a long time. So, first of all, last Friday, a house investigation was conducted at Jermak. It was already expected in the days. It was clear that this could not go on like this. So, it remains unclear after all. You don't have to say if Jermak is personally involved in this corruption scandal. But Zelensky simply had no choice but to separate from Jermak because the pressure has grown too much. We go as journalists also on background briefings, for example, both the authorities, NABO and ZAPO, days before. And there have actually already been quite a lot of questions, only focused on one topic, namely, does Andriy Jermak have a scandal with him? And if yes, how deep? And there it is now very important to look at this person, Andriy Jermak, and what he did at all. Jermak was no longer thinking away from the beginning of the war and was constantly on the side of Zelensky, even on the most photos. He was even on this video, that Zelensky published after the beginning of the war, in which he said that he is in Kiev and that the country does not leave. So since February 24, Jermak was simply the most important man for Zelensky and was also referred to as the Shadow President by many. And the problem that many had with him was that Jermak was not elected by the people, but suddenly led and led the most sensitive foreign-political talks. So he spoke with national security advisers of the partner countries and he also coordinated the team that he had prepared the Ukrainian positions for possible peace negotiations. And at the same time he was appointed in Ukraine, that he should have manipulated court hearings in Ukraine, with the aim of discrediting his rivals and making anti-corruption investigations. And then there is an important aspect that we have to mention. For Zelensky himself, Jermak had a very important role since the beginning, because Jermak has drawn so much criticism towards himself and always led the whole negative attention towards himself. So Jermak was a kind of shield for Zelensky and while Jermak was perceived as a negative, the president still had very high popularity values. And now back to a question whether the retreat of Jermak has an impact on the talks that are being carried out at this time, where a plan is being worked on, which may then be handled at some point, we do not know that, but personally it is probably the case that Zelensky moves back, because Jermak was his most important trust and he lost it. That means that in the short term, maybe he feels that he is less supported in his own environment. I agree, I agree with you that Jermak also has a lot of power behind the meeting between Donald Trump and Volodymya Zelensky. At the beginning of the year, it was that he became a debacle for Zelensky. Is that right? Yes, that was reported in the media. The problem is that we, of course, are not personally involved in most of the talks and therefore we do not want to overdo it well. Good, just a side aspect at this point. But if we now come back to the Ukrainians and Ukrainians, how do you react to these accusations in Ukraine, especially if you look at the circumstances with which the population actually has to live since 2022 and which have now been distorted in recent times, which have become a storm wave, which has become a non-functional heating, which is in front of the door in winter, etc. Yes, the people have reacted with anger. They are disappointed. Some are just confirmed in the assumption that there are still structures in the country in which the powerful profit and the normal population suffer, because of course it is the population. So the people are the sufferers of this brutal attack. So the drone attacks, the missile attacks that do not stop, which was recently given in Kiev. You have already mentioned that there are power cuts every day. At some there is still no heating. Then there are the whole families that of course have lost people. These are the soldiers who are standing on the front or dying, who defend the country, who have given up everything to risk their lives and for a country that should be free and democratic. And in order to have a free and democratic country, you have to fight corruption, because this is also one of the most important criteria on the way in the future in a European Union. And this corruption scandal has just made sure that the trust in the leadership has been weakened. So we live in an age of information or perhaps even disinformation. And this incident of course also turns conspiracy theories on. Already a year ago, a part of society has doubted that the power cuts were due to the attacks. So there were also quite a lot of wild theories about this. And this part of the population will certainly not get smaller. And what I have just also observed is that we are at some decisive point. The people are exhausted. And the unity in the country that has made sure that Ukraine is so strong and can still defend itself, we speak of the much-considered resilience in the population. So we see that this unity, this trust in each other is somehow broken. And in the past years there has always been a relatively big resistance under the people, which is critical to the political leadership. And this is just coming back. So before the Russian attack, you also have to know, was the population extremely critical here when it came to the powerful? So especially around Zelensky, who has gained more than 70% of the votes, but for example, among the representatives of the civil society organizations, was not at all well looked at. And there you just notice that this criticism is slowly coming back and that this certain self-censorship may also slowly stop. That sounds like absolute poison for the mood in the population. I read in one of your texts that the Ukrainian responsibility at a conference, I think it's already a few weeks back or months, in Kiev the people in Ukraine also disappeared when the energy was produced. So often, yes, it doesn't look like that. It's a bit of a black-and-white thing. That can't have come very well either. Yes, these statements are of course cynical. That was a conference on the issue of energy security in Kiev and on the same day these reports were announced. I also briefly talked to an energy expert who spoke very similarly and said that we shouldn't turn on the heating at all because it's too early and the winter hasn't started yet. And that people should get used to it, so that you don't run around in the winter in the T-shirt at home. And such statements should be eaten by cakes. They are not particularly helpful, because poverty grows in the country. People bear the attacks and also personal losses. And if then calculated, privileged experts, politicians and so on, the people will be facing losses. Then there is a dangerous gap between those who make the decisions and those who carry the consequences. If we go back a bit to the summer, which has now been reported in this context again and again, there were discussions about the anti-corruption authorities, which you have already mentioned, to make more or less. That is a plan that has not come to a standstill because of the great protest, but does it have to do with the current cause? Do you know more about it? Anti-corruption authorities ask, so the representatives of the anti-corruption authorities then say, "Yes, of course, that's connected." So what happened in the summer, that was an attack on the independence of these said authorities, which, to the point of time, can already have caused the already mentioned corruption. So what happened then, on July 22, that was shortly before the summer break in Parliament, suddenly a law, with the number 12414, was signed by the Ukrainian parliament and then signed by the president. This law would mean a demarcation of the authorities, because these authorities would have immediately signed by the General Staff of the State, and the head of the General Staff of the State, which would be taken directly by the president. Officially, there was a reason for this law, namely that you have to take the Russian influence on the anti-corruption authorities. But of course this law would have meant that the authorities are sensitive to interventions. And what happened there, we haven't experienced it since the beginning of the war, namely the largest nationwide protests. There were suddenly 10,000 people, probably more, in the streets, they were peaceful, but very loud, demonstrating, not only in Kiev, but also in other cities. And that went on for days, for as long as the president was back in Kiev, and also because the pressure from abroad was enormous. And I also talked to protesters at the time, that were young people, but also families and soldiers who were really openly angry for the first time. For example, a young woman said to me, "We have been traveling together here for years and following all the rules and giving up everything, and then we hear that political power positions are still the same as before." And the question that many have asked at the time was where this law came from. And there was the assumption that the law from the presidential office came from, which was led by Andriy Yermak at the time. Of course, the question is, whether Lodimir Zelensky can make himself believe that he didn't know anything about Aldiom. Or is he suspicious of himself? Before, half of the cabinet, his most trusted, etc., that he should be involved somewhere, can you really buy it? The negotiations are still going on. President Zelensky sent a strong signal that he had corrupt people around him, but that he didn't want to have anything to do with these people, at least now. According to the experts I talked to, Yermak's retreat had a bigger political crisis in the country for the first time, but to get back to your question, Zelensky somehow lost Yermak with this corruption scandal, who got the entire criticism. And that's why you can now assume that the president is now more in the focus of this criticism and observes the gene that his popularity has lured. If you look at it the other way around, you don't know the whole thing as a huge victory of the anti-corruption authorities in Ukraine. I mean, it's about really close trust of Volodymyr Zelensky, who is in the view of the criticism. The geostrategic expert and security expert, Carlo Masala, writes for example, I have it here in front of me, I quote him very briefly, "In Ukraine there is corruption, no shit Sherlock, but it is followed and clarified by independent institutions. This is the difference to Russia, but the explanations come from the window." I have already heard this argument very often now. And yes, of course, it is somehow positive that these authorities are spreading, but that's not just how it happens. So that these authorities can work and that these messages have even come to the public, 10,000 people in the whole country went to the streets in the summer. So that was fought by the population. That was not simply given to the people here. That means somewhere, yes, that is of course positive, but we must also not forget that the pressure on these authorities is still there. So at the moment there are two employees of the NABU under investigation. Three employees suddenly are suspected in connection with traffic accidents, which have been around for years. And one employee was admitted due to illegal enrichment. That means you are obviously also against the corruption in the middle. Exactly, the pressure is still there and that is what all the authorities here in the country are saying. Daniela, maybe a short assessment of yourself. You are in the country, you have been reporting for a long time, you know the situation there. We have already discussed how much the population is complaining, how much they are angry, the people who have to carry them here because they have to do good business in this situation. For how, among other things, war decisions, influencing, etc. do you hold the current situation? We all have the feeling, even if we look at the reports, at the moment there seems to be a key moment in this conflict. You have already said, I have observed the situation for a long time now, and I think what we have all learned is that we are very careful to deal with prognoses. Whether something comes out at all in these conversations, which are apparently being conducted, it is so that this corruption scandal of course all plays into the hands that the Ukrainians no longer want to support. For example, if we now think of Viktor Orban, he now has of course a great argument to put it this way, why it simply makes no sense to support the corrupt Ukrainians. That means, somewhere the country has certainly taken damage, but on the other hand, we have heard that there should be a new team, that there should be a new leader of the presidential office, and here many people in the country at least have a chance. And you also have to say that Jadamak's return was very important for the morale here in the population, because it was very tense due to this corruption scandal, and here you just have at least the hope that the president understands what is at stake and that the country is in the right direction. I think I have the feeling that you have answered my last question so that I could know what kind of steps are still needed. You have just said that the personal seems to be more or less reversed. Yes, exactly. We are still waiting on who will be decided as the new leader and what kind of steps will still take place. But the people here, who are expecting transparency from the government and that you just reduce the pressure on the corruption fighters so that they can do their work and what we can already say now is that the intermediaries are currently also working in a very, very sensitive area and also in the defense sector. So we don't even know what is coming from us yet. Can you say anything about this area or do you know that it is being mediated? You only know that it is being mediated. I had the feeling that in the next video I will talk about this topic. Daniela Brucker, that was it for the moment. First of all, thank you and best greetings to Ukraine. Thank you for the invitation. And if you have liked this episode until now and would like to support the critical and independent report statement of the standard then it is up to you or with a one-time support contribution which is already up to 3 euros. All information under ABO.der Standard.at And here is what you still have to know today. First of all we remain thematic in Ukraine. After the talks between Vladimir Putin and a US delegation we are not close to the Russian situation. Trump's special officer Steve Wittkov and his ally Jared Kushner were invited to talk. Five and a half hours should have lasted for them and the speakers should remain reliable. Second, also thematic. The EU wants to be completely independent from Russian land gas and the member states should agree on this. Until late November 1st 2027 no gas should pass through Pipelines in the EU. For some countries there should be a short-term exception. The introduction of liquid gas from Russia should already be banned in Vienna 2027. And third, the post also expects this year extremely large number of transmissions in Christmas shops. 20 million packages should be in addition. Around 50 million letters and Christmas cards will arrive. All further news from the world will happen as always on derStandard.at Feel free to send us your suggestions at derStandard.at I am Daniel Retschitz-Ecker, thank you for listening. See you next time.