deep dive: postpartum mental health & the lindsay clancy case

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Jessus Girls, it is Paige, Katie, and Sam. Quick housekeeping today. We are doing our first deep dive episode. We, yeah, I know we're excited. We talked about this last week, how we wanna start just a little bit of a different format, where there are so many topics that we get so excited to discuss because there's so many sides, so much nuance, and so we're gonna start that this week, and we wanted to do our first one on postpartum mental health. I think it has very much been in the news recently, and we want to bring more attention to the conversation, both from our personal experiences, and a little bit of statistics. Want to set the tone that none of us are therapists? We are not licensed. This is not coming from a clinical angle. This is just three girls who have three mothers, who have had different postpartum experiences, talking and sharing and hoping to bring people into the conversation, and hopefully make people feel heard. Yeah, and I think so often, especially in the postpartum phase, I don't know how you all felt, but typically you don't have this really strong group of mom friends right off the bat. You might have good friends, but they might not all be moms, or maybe a handful of our moms, but you often don't share these experiences with other people, because you're fearful of how you'll be seen or judged, or, yeah, or you're worried if they are having a great experience and you're not, and so I think one of the reasons we also when I have this conversation too is because we talk about this all the time offline. I talk about this with my girlfriends now, but I'm four years past my youngest kid when I had my first kids, like I didn't have people to talk to, and so I think we just want to have a conversation to Katie's point of like, this is how we talk to one another, and these are the conversations I wish people were having when I had, you know, my first biological child, yeah. And collectively we have nine children together, not, I think you did, not as a mother, right? I have two, you have three, you have four. And I think when you started talking page I was thinking about, I don't know if you guys went on like the apology tour, but like after I had my first child, I went on like the apology tour of like, oh my gosh, I had no idea what you were going through. And I've had friends say that to me, after their first kid, I'm like, you didn't know. You didn't know, and that's okay, and everyone's experience is different, but to just bring light to this postpartum era. That's actually why I kind of started my page as a motherhood page is when I was in, and we'll all talk about this 'cause like I said, we've all had different postpartum experiences, but I was facing severe like PPD and PPA, and when I would go online, it was still very much like the aesthetic Instagram, where I feel like everybody was showing these highlight reels of cherish every moment, and these sweet new board babies and my experience felt so vastly different that I felt so alone to your point page, I didn't have a village around me to really understand, and so I turned online because I was like, somebody has to be having a similar experience to me because I feel so lonely. - Yeah, and I think both online and in person, right, there's the fear that you share, and then somebody says, just be grateful. - Yeah, you know, and don't, yeah, that's hard, but don't blink at all, it'll all be over soon. - You've got a miss. (laughing) - I love those videos, the kids screaming at you. (laughing) - My husband and I now turn to each other, we're like, how lucky are we? - Because it is really, really hard and difficult, all these stages, but there's a lot of things I will miss, there's something that a hundred percent will ask. - It says like a screaming four year old in the back of a car, I will not miss that. But yeah, I think that's kind of the whole point, it's like to have conversations, like one of the reasons we want to do these deep jobs, and they won't all be heavy topics, they will be fun topics and TV shows, and like the office one, books, but I think this one has been in the zeitgeist, it's all, it's my entire feed. I think if you are a mother, it is your entire feed right now, and not just your feed, it's what's, people are talking about the playground, it's when people are talking about online, it's in the news, it's everywhere, and I think like obviously, elephant in the room, like the Lindsay Clancy trial of it, all hate and penitentiary passing away. I mean, I think there's just so many like, things that are happening that almost feels impossible to ignore, and I don't, I know Katie, Katie kind of is putting this episode together for us, and I don't know where we're gonna go with it, but one of the things that I think has been really interesting to me with this conversation is how stark the commentary is between women who are all incredibly empathetic, and the men who are like these women are awful, like just in general, these women are crazy, these women are crazy, they're anxious, they shouldn't have babies, and it's like, I feel like we can't not talk about it, and so I'm glad that we're doing that. But even to add to that, I think, even if you're not a mother, yeah, this is an important conversation for you to hear, because I know for me, and I'm sure you all had similar experiences, when you're pregnant and you're having your first, you're so concentrated on getting the nursery together, and making sure your baby registry is going, and you have these doctors appointments to check on you, and know where on that mapper radar, or you're like, oh, my mental health could absolutely tank the second I had this baby, and I'm not prepared for it at all. And my partner's not either. Oh yeah, my partner's not either. And I feel like when you become pregnant, it's like your life I know for me would like to hear your experience. Like it was all like a think about. Like once that baby is in you and you know about it, it's like you're planning, you're prepping, you're doing all this, and then the main, if we're talking about like our relationships that we have with our partners, like they're not physically pregnant, so it's not much is really changing for them, until they can physically see a change on you, or until that baby is put in their hands. I felt a real sense of responsibility. Also, like, trigger warning, I had to traumatic pregnancy losses before I had my biological kids. And so I think when I was pregnant with my first biological daughter, I remember saying to my husband, I was like, I feel so much pressure because it's all on me to make sure she gets to your safe. Like it's all on me to, and like I know it's not, but it's like it is. It's my body, and I feel this like huge sense of responsibility and accountability. And I'm the person who has to go to the doctor's appointment, and I'm the person who has to monitor my blood pressure. And I'm like, you just get to like live your life. And my life has already changed, and the baby is not even here yet. And I remember that being a really jarring experience for me, and I'm not a person who suffers with like anxiety. When I was pregnant after pregnancy loss, I had so much stress and anxiety about like, is she okay? And I am, what can I do differently? And like what should I do? And it just felt like a pressure I had really never experienced before, and my husband didn't get it. Like he tried to be up, but like he like, definitely didn't understand it at the time. - Yeah, I think Alie Wong has a standup where she talks about this, and she like talks about how it's so easy to be a shitty mom, and it's so easy to be an amazing dad. And she's like, I'm pregnant, and my husband comes to the appointments with me and just plays Candy Crush in the corner. And everybody's like, oh my God, she goes to your appointment. He's such a great dad. She's like, I'm the one getting my blood drawn, getting the ultrasounds, growing the baby. And she's like, no one's ever said good job for growing this baby. I'm like being a good mom. - This man will never know what a trans-vachinal ultrasound feels like. - Oh, honestly. - And IVF, you get me and Wanda. I call her Wanda. - I didn't name her, I didn't want to know her. - I didn't want to know her. - She was in me a lot. - Oh, thank you for bringing that up, 'cause that's also something I never knew about, and is, I just think of you. I'm like, I need to cross my mind. - No one. - Do you have PTSD? - I mean, it was, but like I remember thinking like, yeah, to your point, they don't get it, but also, not for nothing, the apology tour of it all. I was one of the first to have kids. Luckily my sister, my younger sister, had actually had a daughter a few years prior to me, but no one else I knew had children. And so, I was one of the first, and I didn't have to go on an apology tour, but I remember thinking like, like, nobody tells you anything. - Nobody tells you. - About anything. - I text my sister, and I literally was like, fuck you. I was like, why did you not prepare me? - Yeah. - For how completely jarring and terrifying postpartum is. And she was like, well, I didn't want to scare you. - That's what every says. I didn't want to scare you. And people tell you, don't scare other people. If you had a traumatic birth, don't tell anyone. If you had postpartum anxiety, don't tell anyone. And it's like, what? - Yes, because I'm like, I went in so blind. Like, I thought it was going to be like, there's the breastfeeding journey, which like, went horribly for my first, which is added to my anxiety, my depression, because I thought it was going to be this intuitive, you just put baby on you. And it's like, a scene of the wilderness where like, there were willows around you, and it's like, this golden thing, it was like, he was screaming, he wouldn't match, and I felt like a failure, 'cause I'm supposed to be feeding him. This is my job as a mother. And all of that, nobody prepares you for it. - I remember looking at my husband and me like, why is she crying so much? And like, our first was like a really difficult baby. I don't know if she was calling, if you want to say that, but we had difficult feeding journey, lip tie, tongue tie, all these things, you just don't know about. And we didn't have that exposure to kids. Like, did you guys have a lot of exposure to young babies before having? - I was a nanny for a really long time, and I worked in daycareers for like six years, so I did. I did. - She was like, why are they crying so much? Aren't they supposed to, I get back to the Instagram of it all. I was like, aren't they supposed to be cute and sleepy and just thinking about it? - But even that, like I think people who have, like they're like, I'm an aunt, or I'm a this, or I'm a that, is like, I felt like I knew a lot, because I was like, I've taken care of a lot of little babies. Like, I worked in an infant group, I've seen a lot, but there is nothing quite like being a parent. Like, you can care for children, and you still don't know what it feels like, because, and I say this also as an adoptive parent, like, you know, when I became a parent to my two oldest, they were one and two, so it wasn't newborn, but still it was like so much pressure and stress and anxiety, and like, I didn't anticipate it, and it was so vastly different. I was like, I was a nanny, I'll be great. And it's like, no, it's so different to 24/7 be responsible for keeping this child alive. You don't get to go home at three o'clock and say see you tomorrow. Like, they are your full responsibility. Everything that happens to them. and I see. I think that is probably one of the things that really caught me off guard, which was like, no matter how, quote, unquote, like prepared you feel for it, it's not as easy as you think it's gonna be. Well, I mean, for some people, it is easy, but like for me, it was like, and the caretaking part was easy, but it was more so like, the impact on me as a human being. - Yeah, it was what your life changes. - Yeah, it was really what I struggled with. - Yeah, so I think just to encompass kind of this intro, this conversation is for mothers, is for people are pregnant, who people who are not, that might know somebody in their life that might support and for partners. So, all they're welcome to this conversation, we're excited to dig in and welcome to our first deep dive of post-partemental health. - Welcome. Okay, so first off, I wanna share some statistics. Actually, before we do, I think we should just say, so I will openly say I had experiences with post-partum depression and post-partum anxiety with my first page, have you had any experience with either? - I did not. I feel like I had a bit of post-partum like range towards my partner specifically. - Oh yeah, we need to talk about that. - But I did not have diagnosed post-partum depression or anxiety and I didn't experience. I felt more of the anxiety while pregnant, which I think was like very circumstantial to the pregnancy losses, but no, I did not. And so I'm interested for this conversation as a person who like has not struggled, but like had to talk to friends dealing with it as a person who did not personally experience it. - And what about you Sam? - And then with my first, I had post-partum depression, anxiety, definitely anxiety, like came out as rage, rage towards partner. And then with my second, I had medication in hand before delivering the baby. So I was like, I'm gonna be ready. So I was just definitely more aware. - Yeah. - So I was looking up some interesting statistics and I do always take these statistics with a grain of salt because right, like it depends on reporting. - It depends on race or religion. Like there's so much difference. - For economic, yeah. So about one in eight women experienced symptoms of post-partum depression. And then one in five women experienced depression, anxiety or frightening slash intrusive thoughts. And what I think is so interesting is when you think about the mom group that you are friends with now, or as you said, as you develop them, like I know there are, the mom group, I was initially had like 25 people in it. So I'm like, okay, it's a huge bomb. (laughing) - Oh, it went all bad. - You know what I mean? - I mean, I just hear that. - I equated it to like a freshman year of college where you put the dorm with all the people and then from there, you're like, all right, you're my people. But just in having 25 women like in that group, I'm like, okay, so at least three of us were suffering. And but it's funny because in talking to them, the number was so much higher than that. - I was gonna say that sounds starkly low during your stats. - I have a lot of friends, I was just talking, because again, this is all anyone's talking about in my like actual day to day life with my mom friends. And we were talking about how so many of them lied on that piece of paper that you filled out at like your six-week appointment or a few of them said, like I filled it out and was like, I am incredibly, they're like, I answered honestly and the obi did nothing. They're like, so like, yeah, they ask you, that's like your check, like are you okay? And usually it's at the baby's appointment, not even your own appointment. And she's like, but I don't, they didn't do anything about it. And so it felt like, okay, I told you the truth or I didn't. So yeah, it's like who experienced about maybe didn't speak up or went untreated or gets funny in my obi and I connected on Instagram because she actually moved after I delivered my first and I loved her. And I made a video actually making fun of like this six-week appointment and like, what's going on in your head first, what you say? Because that's exactly what's happening and filling out the forum. And I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna tell them these things 'cause they're gonna take my baby away from me. They're gonna be like, oh, she's crazy, like she can. And so I just lied on everything. And she messaged me and she was like, I'm so sorry that you didn't feel comfortable to like express things. And I was like, it's not you, it's society. - Yeah. - Yes, the pressure we put on moms 'cause it's like you're supposed to love this. - Yeah, you're going to that six-week checkup and they're like, okay, you're clear to work out and to have sex. And I'm like, I can't even, do you wanna go on birth control? - I'm supposed to be doing. - I'm supposed to be doing, with an anal fissure and you're telling me to have sex, like, what? - I mean, they asked me about birth control before I left the hospital, did they? - Like, I think the only thing I was asked over and over and then in my postpartum period, what are you doing for birth control? What are you doing for birth control? - I literally, when I was leaving the hospital, they said, what is your plan? And in mind, you, I had a hysterectomy and they kept asking me, I was like, I have no plan. - I said, my plan is abstinence. Like, you can leave the room, we're good. You don't have to worry right now. - But it's true, it's like, they're so focused on baby and then like, yeah, just don't get pregnant again. It's like, I'm okay. - I'm crumbling, you go foundation here and you're telling me not to have skype. - You're like, what? - I'm a diaper. - Literally. - What I think would also is an accounted for is, I was reading a lot about how a lot of women also don't even start to experience post-harmed depression until like eight or nine months out. - Interesting. - Where is this? - Sometimes, yeah, 'cause the hormone changes. - I think it's the hormone changes, but I think a big thing we need to discuss is support because for the first few months, and this is something I think that was different for all of us, which we should share because it adds to the conversation. Like, your village is there the first few weeks, right? They're bringing you food. They're bringing you baby clothes. They want to stop by and see the baby. They may be picking up the toddler. Like, you know, and you might have off, you have leave. So some might have some type of maternity leave. And then, and I feel like I always, at four months, I've noticed. I always hit a dip of like more depression. And I think it's because that's where they're like, "Okay, get back out there." Like, your four months post-partum now, like, and so many times go back to work full time. Like, you don't have the luxury coming up. - And realistically, you're probably not sleeping well still. You're on a feeding journey. You're not getting support. And I think, like, that's a big thing is, we're definitely not checking on women past six weeks with the lack of even checking on them. - Yes. - Yeah, I think it's interesting. This idea of it, like, taking time and like the support of it all. I'm glad you brought this up because I made a video about the Lindsey Clancy trial. Not about what the trial, I talked about, like, the relationship dynamic. And why I think a lot of women are choosing not to have kids to get married is because they've watched too many women before them walk through it without support. Or even have support. But like, you know, I talk a lot about the mental load. It's like you might have the physical support of changing diapers, but not the emotional support of the mental support. And it just was so interesting. The conversation around that where they're like, well, you know, he was at home. And it's like, you need so much more than physical presence. And even in a community, right? Like, you need somebody that you can talk to and somebody that you can confide in and not feel like crazy when you tell them something like this. And I think a lot of people don't know that they actually have that. Yeah, and I think, so I know, Sam, I'm interested if you've heard these things when you were like having post-warmed depression or anxiety. Two things that always really stuck with me that people would say is it's like, I would ask how, like, are you experiencing post-warmed depression too or like, what's got people would say? No, I've really always wanted a baby. So I'm really happy. And people would say that about other people as well. They'd be like, oh, how is she doing? And they'd be like, well, she's great because you know, she's always really wanted a baby. And that also made me go into the shadows more because I was like, I've always wanted a baby also. Like, wanting a baby does not equate to your post-partamental health. And I think that's something a lot of people I actually hear in my circles all the time. And also the anxiety and the depression piece. It's like, oh, no, she's doing well because she's never been the type of person to get anxious or the type of person to get depressed. And it's like, that can happen to anybody. I guess if you have a predisposition, like, and you've been depressed or anxious in your life, you have a higher chance of developing it. But it's like, that can sync up on people out of nowhere. Yeah, and I feel like that's something, and being an IVF mom, I mean, I went through four years of trying to conceive. So that's like really common in the infertility community is that shame and guilt, that like extra layer because you work so hard to get this kid where we couldn't just have sex and get pregnant. And then you have this baby. And then you're like, oh my fucking god. Like, what the hell am I doing? Like, I'm depressed. I'm anxious. I'm supposed to be happy. I'm supposed to be grateful. So being able to have like the duality of emotion there. But I definitely would hear that. And I would also hear a lot. I think something that it would be ringing in my ears is like, ask for help, ask for help, ask for help, especially with my first, and I don't know if you've stats on this if like post-partum anxiety and depression's higher in first time parents. But that is a theme that I see a lot. Again, that I'm not saying that is a stat, just something I see in friend groups and be interested to hear your guys take is like, you just don't know. We've talked about like, you don't know what's about to hit you, not to scare first time parents, but you can't prepare. Like you said, you were a nanny. And it doesn't prepare you for being a parent. And so like, my husband's staring at me. He like just, you know, just tell me what to do back to like mental load kind of stuff. I don't even know how to ask for help. I don't even know what I need, right? And I'm struggling. And so I think that that was really hard because we're like, just asked for help. I'm like, I don't know what I need. Well, it's also the physical aspect, like the hormonal changes. Like, I remember even just my body being so different. Like, do you remember waking up covered in sweat? Oh, my gosh. The nights. But nobody told me that, right? So I'm like, what's going on? Guys, I'm still in that. Yeah. I think I might be impairment. I still have hair lost two years. I'm like, no, you shouldn't still be falling out. I was like, what, two weeks post-partum? and woke up so quickly. - Yeah, it's like a lot, and I'm like after. - And then you also still have the, so you have like the emotional like mental side and then you have the physical side, right? And it's like I remember I had two traumatic births and I was still bleeding 12 weeks postpartum with my first and I'm having to go on for a DNC after 'cause I had retained placenta. It was this whole thing, right? And so it's like my body still didn't feel like mine. Like I didn't know it was going on and you like have these conversations with yourself because everybody's like, it's normal. It's normal, everything is quote unquote normal and even like how they used to bring up the baby blues. It's normal and it's like normal fine, but like tolerable, like okay, probably not. Like we can do, like how do we help people? As opposed to just being like, that's normal. It'll go away. - I feel like during the pregnancy checkups too, like you'd go in and they'd be like, how you do it and they'd be like, well my left arm fell off and they're like, that happened. - That's normal. - I'm like, like I swear anything you bring up. They're like, yeah, totally normal. - And then you're like, okay, so and they're like, so you're good and you're like, I guess? Like I felt like that was all of pregnancy. It's like I think so. Like I don't know. - Yeah. - Yeah. Whenever people ask me what's your number one recommendation before you have a kid, it's like get a good therapist. - We were talking about a little bit of breakfast this morning is depression and anxiety during pregnancy as well because even it's like just, I don't know the better word than just a bummer, but I just feel like I feel like it's good to talk about postpartum mental health and I'm happy it's getting brought to the forefront. I've never even seen somebody talk about, it's perinatal, right? - Yeah, perinatal mental health. Like that has never ever been a thing I've heard one person talk about and I found some like really startling statistics that I think really show how much more research and support we need to put behind it. But mental health conditions are now the leading underlying category of pregnancy related death. - Oh my. - So out of 28% of pregnancy related deaths are due to a mental health condition. - Wow. - I did not know that. - Yeah, 13% of pregnancy related deaths were determined to be died by suicide. Yeah, and I know, and we had talked about this as well. Same, I don't know, I experience horrific depression when I'm pregnancy. Like the whole 10 months, I am just, my brain is not working well. I think everybody hates me and especially with our jobs, like being creative and being online. Like it is the hardest thing for me to do. - For worst. - And Sam, did you experience any of that as well? - I did, I like hibernated. And I feel like we're so privileged that we have the jobs that we do, that we can like take a step back. We don't want to be in, you know, on our feet and at an office for eight hours a day. But then I would, I'd be like riddled with this like paralyzing guilt, like laying in my bed, being like, I can't move, I'm so tired. I need to do more, but I just felt like paralyzed. It's the best way to describe it. - Yeah, I didn't experience that. Like I said, I had some anxiety, but it felt very situational to just like my personal experience with pregnancy. But one of the things that I recently seen, and I don't know if you all have seen this online, which is this trend of women sharing, like positive pregnancy experiences, positive birth experiences, which I think are great. Like I think all birth experiences and pregnancy experiences should be shared and talked about. But they're always positioned as nobody's allowed to talk about their positive birth experience anymore. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Cause they feel like everybody's talking about the negatives because we're all trying to warn each other. And a lot of the comments section was like, what do you mean every pregnancy experience that we've ever heard of leading up to now has been a positive pregnancy experience. Like what you see on TV and like what you see in movies and like what you hear from it's like it was amazing. It was lovely. - No, yeah. - Like we're sharing these sides because I, I think I've told you guys this. When I had my first ectopic pregnancy, the only reason I knew what it was was because one of my favorite Pilates instructors had had one three weeks prior and posted about it on social media. And so I had looked into it. I was like, I didn't even know I was pregnant. I was like, what is this? Like I've never even heard this word before. And I like Googled it and I knew all about the treatment. And so when they walked in the room and told me what was happening, I went, oh my God, I actually know what that is. And my husband was like, what is it? And I was explaining it to him. And he was like, thank God you know. And I'm like, well, I only know because somebody put it on social media. Like that is literally the only reason I know what this is. And so like when you talk about perinatal, I actually stopped talking about this online last night, but I hadn't heard of it until one of my best friends told me that she was feeling that way. And she was super open and honest about it. And I was like, I never in a million years would have known that people struggle with that. I knew about postpartum, but I didn't know about people who experienced it while pregnant. Yeah, and I, well, I think a lot of it also related to, I never said anything to anybody because I was incredibly lucky in my journey with my first that we were able to get pregnant very quickly. And I have so many friends that were struggling to get pregnant that were going through IVF and like best friends. And the last thing I would ever have done is text them and been like, I'm so depressed in my pregnancy. When I know those women would have cut off their left arm to be pregnant and that's all they wanted in the world. And they were going through these horrific journeys of am I going to be a mother? All I've ever wanted to be was a mother. And I felt so selfish ever framing it as like I'm having a hard time during my pregnancy. But how much do you guys think, so this pressure, right, that women feel like one, even those words when you say like, all I've ever wanted to be is a mother, I think about that all the time because I think if you were to ask my daughters, they wouldn't say like, I want to be a mom. Like actually, when my daughter, she cares to be a baby doll every single day. And if you ask her, she wants to be a mom, she goes, it's like a lot of work. And she's like, right, girl. She's like, I don't know. I hear my mom talking about the mental load. She's like, I've watched too many of my moms face. But like, she's like, I don't know, maybe we'll see, right? But like, I don't know that you meet a lot of men who are like, all I've ever wanted to be is a dad, right? Like they want to be a dad and they care about being a dad and they've seen dads and they think it's interesting. But as women, from a very, very young age, there's this like pressure to be a mom when you're older. And like, what it looks like to be a good mom and you're gonna be a babysitter. And you're gonna like, you're gonna do all these things. And people were gonna talk to you about motherhood, even when you're not trying to have a kid. So it's like, when you get there and it's not going how you thought it was, it's like there's this immense pressure and shame. And like, yeah, you feel like you can't say anything. And I'm sure even as you said, like the women who do, like we both did an IVF, who experienced IVF, and then get pregnant, you feel like you can't say anything because it's like, well, like I tried so hard to get here. And now I can't complain about it. Because there's women who are sitting beside me who still haven't gotten pregnant, right? And so it's like, no matter what, it's like you're basically like, I can't say anything. And it's like to your point, it's a psychological reckoning because I was like that. My whole life, I remember going to college and getting in a fight with my parents because I was, I don't know. Like I remember saying like, all I want is to be a mom and to be a stay-at-home mom. And like that's what I see for myself. And they were like, you need to take college. Seriously, you need to do all this stuff. And I was like, I'm going to because I'm here. And like, that's just who I am. But I was like, but truly all I want is to be a mom. And my mom's like, then why are we paying for her to go to college? You know what I mean, what the hell is going to do? But, and I always felt that way. And so when it, when it, I did have my first and even through pregnancy, the pregnancy, you hear these stories of so many people that are like, I love it to be pregnant. I love it to my belly. And you're like, I feel like a beached whale. I feel like a chimpanzee. Like literally-- My tits touching my stomach and like the sweat. Yeah, and it's just like, you just want to take care of what a picture she's taking. You know what I'm talking about? That chimpanzee being with like the boobs. Absolutely, like that's how you feel. I'm like, I don't feel like a goddess. I don't feel like I am giving birth to that. Like, I just feel like a wild animal. I'm smelly. I like, what is happening to my body? The most outstanding. I don't know if you guys had that. That's a whole-- I think we're deep down on that. That's a, that's evolution. That's so our babies can find us to eat. Yeah, I know. So it's like, we all have them. Yeah, it's all, it really is all evolution. But yeah, so I just feel like that it starts there. Where you're like, wait, I thought I was supposed to be beautiful. I love pregnancy and be so proud of my body. Why do I, I can't even like look at who I'm seeing in the mirror. And then transferring over to having the baby when it's like, all I've ever wanted is to be a mom. I've made it my personality. And now I'm here. And I hate it. Yeah, I hate it, I hate it. That makes me sad, though, that you felt that way, too. And I understand how you're like, yeah, you had these friends going through IVF that you felt like I can't open up to them. But I feel like that's why these conversations we're having now are so important. Because I have a lot of friends that were in that infertility space and felt that way. They're like, well, they got pregnant so easy. And it's like, everyone's journeys are fucking hard. It's different types of hard. It's different types of struggles that we're on. And your struggle is no less than someone else's struggle or better or worse. It's just like, it's all really difficult and challenging and life changing and literally flips your life on its head. But it's like being able to just have these conversations. I think in my line of work, I always talk about like, bringing things to the light takes the shame away. Yeah. What was the movie? It was at the Gremlins. [LAUGHTER] Do you know what I'm talking about? I thought the little people where you put water on them and they're like, multiply. OK. So in the dark, they would grow. And it would even get bigger. But that's what-- Symbolism was that movie? Symbolism? And for privacy, you know. Well, for intrusive and negative thoughts in emotions, right? Because whenever it's in the dark, when you don't talk about it, when you don't share it, when you don't talk about it, it just gets bigger and it explodes. But when you're able to talk about it with your friends and your village and your loved ones and your therapist and your professional support, that's when you can get help. But when you keep shame and when you have these big feelings that we don't talk about, it's really difficult. Yeah. And I think I had a whole 'nother layer to it because my mom had died the year before my son was born, my first. And I think that-- [BLANK_AUDIO] got up for failure. Like I was put in the position where I was thinking, I was gonna do well. - You were gonna be like, your mother would do it. - Honestly, I feel like the first year when my son was born, my grief was so, so much worse than when my mom got sick and when she had died. - That makes sense. - Because I real, like when she was passing away, when she was sick, I knew she would miss all of these things. Like it's something I had to come to terms with. But I didn't understand that, right? Like I was like, she's never gonna meet my kids. She's not gonna see these things. And it wasn't until your first child was born, that you're like, wow, I said no. - I know, I'm very exuberant too. - And it's hard because like I know nobody else who had been through that experience. So it's like even there, talking about it. - So specific. - Yeah, and because people are weird about grief anyway. People are very weird about grief. Like nobody talks about my mom to me, like ever. Because they're like, they don't want to upset you, right? Like they see tears, they see people getting upset. And-- - Or they can't sit and discomfort. - That's it, I just want to make it okay. - That's exactly it. And it turns to toxic positivity. - It's toxic. - It's toxic from now. - It's toxic, it's so toxic. - It is so toxic. And so I think between like my partner, and because even my siblings who went through that experience with me, they had all had kids already. So it's like, they didn't even know. - Yeah. - And so I think there's, there's so many layers to your point, if you're experiencing infertility, if you're experiencing grief, that add to it. And I just wish, like as women we felt more empowered to go to therapy, to get medicine. And like, know that it's okay and you're not alone. Like so many people experience things like this. - Yeah. (upbeat music) - All right, so I took a breath. (laughing) She's back, we're back. Something else, I mean, on that vein of speaking up, getting a support and how we want to talk a little bit about that, and what that looks like in terms of, I mean, first of all, we need to talk about partners and how partner support affects your post-partemental health. - Yeah. - Because I mean, also to know partner's experience, like mental health conditions after-- - Actually, mine did, so that was not, I didn't experience it, but my partner did. Like he had never struggled with anxiety or depression, like at least not in a way that like was impactful, you know, or he spoke up about it at least in our 20s. And when we had kids, it was like this like switch. And like he started having panic attacks and just like it was just, I think like, yeah, it's a huge time for partners too. And until it's like, sometimes it's like, it's both, and like it's not post-partum, right? But it's like, it's still like, it's such becoming parents is such a life-changing moment that I think it impacts everybody in really, really different ways and oftentimes in ways that we don't tell them about and we don't tell them how to treat it. Like my husband literally thought I had a brain tumor. He's like, I have a brain tumor. We kept going to like neurologists and stuff. And then he finally started seeing this therapist and she's like, I think they're panic attacks. And then he was like, oh Jesus. - He's like, well, that would have been good to know. - Yeah, well, and I think that also adds a lot to post-partum mental health conditions is what happens with you and your partner. - At totally. Because that's, we don't talk about the roommate stage, we don't talk about how your relationship from the foundation completely crumbles and has to be rebuilt once you have kids in your home. And I think support from your partner also plays a huge part in your mental health because if you are speaking out, if you are talking to how is your partner involved for that first year, especially of your first kid? Because that's who your lifeline is. - Well, so I'll put on my hat from work, which is that a lot of people don't understand this, but I think a lot of women when they're struggling post-partum is special with their partner, they don't speak up because we're told not to talk poorly about our partners, right? And you should have picked better. How do you not know? Didn't you have these conversations? - I didn't marry. - I didn't marry, yeah, my husband's this 'cause I didn't marry and lose her. The data shows that when couples are a egalitarian before they have kids, after kids, they become traditional. Like, the majority of them will shift traditional. And it's not because you married the wrong guy or because he wants to put all that work on your plate, it's because, systemically and societally, we put all this work on mothers. There's a lack of paid rentally, there's a lack of affordable childcare, there's a lack of resources for women who are struggling, there's a lack of education for men who don't know how literally to do anything with children or anything about mental health or post-partum. And so, like, what you said with your mom, it's like, we are set up to fail. Like, we are actually set up for this to happen. We're women are overburdened with all of the work of motherhood and this massive reckoning and loss of identity, and men are kind of sitting on the sidelines. And so, I hate the narrative that like, if you wanted to, he would, if you picked the right partner, like, I didn't marry a loser, that's actually just like not rooted in the reality that we live in, which is that men are not to sitally condition to show up in the same way that women are. And systemically, it's very hard. And like, you can't, I always tell people, I'm like, this is a massive opportunity to like, educate men and to change these dynamics. Like, we can change these dynamics, we can change the way we all experience this. And you can have the, I have one of the most hands-on loving kind partners who would literally do anything. Like, I was like, in surgery and he was taking, I didn't even hold our, like, he had our baby, he was doing everything for her. And like, on paper, like, everything you want. And I was still struggling and frustrated with him and felt like I didn't have enough support from him, right? And so, like, I think we have to get comfortable having these conversations. And it's not because the men are shitty people and that we didn't do a good job picking the right husband. - Yeah, and I think we actually need to start this. I know we've had this conversation before in pregnancy. I mean, probably before that, but especially during pregnancy, I think that societal expectation starts with a baby registry. - Yes. - Because how many men, baby showers? - You have exactly-- - Oh, the registry was so stressful. - But it's like, I don't know. - I think that's where it starts with the stress of the registry of, like, what do you do? You reach out to every mom, you know, every sister, every friend, and say, like, do I get the, up a baby, or do I get the new know? Or what's the difference? And what is baby blood weeding? When do I need for it? And so, you're the one that, from the beginning, is gathering all the information that is trying to parse out what you need and why. And so, then what happens, the shower, which normally, I mean, I had two different showers, which is a different story, so the one that I had a day. I had a co-ed, like, when the one that I was involved in, I was like, I want it to be co-ed. Like, that was a very important thing for me. And because I do think, like, we need to bring men into this, we need to make it the societal expectation that the man is involved, that is the man's baby. It's not just the mom's baby. It's also the man's baby. And I think, but so then you get the baby being born. And then the woman, or the mom, has to teach their partner, this is for this. Like, this is a snot, something like this is how you use it. This is how you do the stroller. Oh, no, that's a carcy. And like, we have to then educate our husbands, because we were the one gathering all the information, which is just so dumb. And this is obviously a very heteronormative conversation we're having, so like, we're putting this out from our lived experiences here. But yeah, like, so many of my brothers expecting his first, and he calls me constantly. And he's like, this mattress, or this mattress. And I send him Katie's link to her mattress. I was like, is she like that one? Katie got some great reaction from my friends. My friend has so many links. Thank you so much. But like, he's so involved in my mom all kind of joke, like, how are your brothers so funny? I'm like, what do you mean, how? Like, if I was asking these questions, nobody would be like, how are pages so over the top? It's like, that's my job, right, I'm the mother. And he's taking his job as a dad. She's being so anxious. Yeah, but he exactly. And this is my beef. When we think about partners, I think one of the reasons like this is part of the conversation, too, is like, I think the Lindsay Clancy Trial, as we talked about, is bringing to light partnership dynamics and marriage. And there's a lot of conversation, and especially in those closing arguments, which we'll get, too. Steve is going to come from, yeah. Why was he, you know, he was skiing, and he was going to brunch, and everybody has his conversations, like, why was she so depressed? She had a nanny for three hours a week, like, 12 hours a week. Her kids went to preschool for 12 hours a week. She had involved grandparents, all of these things, right? And I think the thing that sticks out to a lot of people is like the disparity between the couple, right? And like, how it seemed like his life still went on and her life changed so drastically in every single way. And so I think it's like bringing forward these conversations, but at the same time, it's bringing up critiques of women. So she had a nanny. She was depressed, and she had all this support. She was anxious. And like, that's an insult I get on my videos all the time when I talk about the mental load, which is like, women are so anxious, they bring this on themselves. This is like self-created anxiety. And it's like, lobbed as an insult. So like, we're sitting here and we're saying, speak up. Tell people, but it's like, I also know why women don't speak up, because the second you speak up, you get shamed, not just by men, too, by women as well. I was shamed by plenty of women, too. By women as well. And so like, you also have this like, people who shut you down. And so it's really such a tricky conversation. And I think people can't ignore it right now because of how big this trial is and how many conversations it's bringing to the forefront. But I think the partnership aspect is the thing that I was so stuck on this inequity that appears from the tri-- like, we don't know their real life. I was like, I don't know anything about their real life. But like, this inequity that seems to have appeared that I have witnessed in so many of my friends' marriages. And I know it's like one of the major struggles people have. Yeah. And I think we're not here to debate any of the trial whatsoever. But we want to talk about those points, like, especially that video. Are they at a museum? Or are they sharing the made-waring and pushing the stroller with everything on it? And he's just like, off to the side. And it's like, how many times do you see that around everywhere, all the time? It's all joke videos with the-- where the dad's not wearing the back back and the mom's like, "Oh, take the back back." And the mom's like, "Baby, back, extra oil." And the mom's like, "Take the back back." And it's like all these dads just like are physically present. And that is what is the qualifier for being a good dad. And I think that's the thing that people were always confused about with me, which is like, I have this amazing husband. And he was there. Like he was physically present if I asked him to make a bottle or to change it up, he was physically there. And yet I felt so isolated and alone. And I felt like I couldn't say anything to anyone because they had an amazing husband. And I know so many women who had a worse husband, right? So it's like, worse, quote unquote. Like my husband's still a good guy. Like he wasn't a bad guy. It was just like, my experience wasn't great at that time. And I think that coupled with like, if you're experiencing postpartum anxiety or depression and you're struggling with your partnership and you feel like you can't talk to anyone. Like how much more isolated can you be in those moments? And like, no wonder we don't like speak up about it. Yeah, I'm picturing the mind that you were talking about. I've seen those memes. But yeah, my husband, his role is usually go to the grocery store. He'll take the kids every single time. What a great dad. What a great dad. The one he said, the, the, I was an older woman checking him out and she was like, where's mom? Like she was like interrogating him. Like, where is mom? Is she okay? And like, she doesn't know him. It's just. Well, and I think that also made me like feel, drove me crazy. Is that when I had my first people be like, oh my gosh. Matt's changing diapers. Oh my gosh, look at him feeding him a bottle. You're such a good dad. And it's just like, we're sitting there chimpanzees. Like milk from our neck. Milk from my neck. Wearing a diaper. And just like, no comments. No, they're like, he's such a good dad. Go get him feeding a bottle. And also I can't believe you gave them a passie. That's going to confuse them. And you're like, and are they feet cold? What you're like, what? And it's like, okay. I was like, he's just like, he doesn't need to know any of those things. And like this anxiety conversation comes up a lot where it's like, men will often say things like, we're just not as stressed as you. We're just not, we're more open to like taking risks with our kids, right? But also there is data to show that like, there is different judgment of women. And like, if I let my kids do something dangerous and they get hurt, there is a much higher scrutiny for me. Whereas men, it's like, at least he kept them alive. Yeah, he got hurt, but like, at least he's alive right at the end of the day. And like, that's like the bar that a lot of people have. Like when they joke that their husband's watching their kids, like, he's keeping them alive. Maybe they're not really eating real meals, but they'll be alive when I get home. And it's like, that is so no wonder it's like, we have these vastly different experiences of parenthood. Because also the expectations are so vastly different. And we were talking about this offline, which was like, we'll get to the closing arguments of it all. But like, in order to be a good mom, you also have to like, you can't let yourself go. You have to look good. Like, well, let's talk about the closing argument. Do you know more than that? I just saw clips of it. Yeah, I just saw clips of it. But it was like she was asking questions of the jury. Yeah, well, okay, just to give info. So this is the Lindsay Clancy trial. And in the closing arguments, the boy, our prosecution was presenting to the jury. To the jury and saying such. Saying things like, if you saw this video of Lindsay, would you know she's depressed? Like, would you be able to pick out that she's depressed? Yeah, compared to other moms. If you saw Lindsay taking care of the baby as well, Patrick was at brunch. Would you know she's depressed, right? Like, would you be able to point out that she was in psychosis or that she was depressed? Basically insinuating that like, you should be able to know. Like, if you look at a woman, you'd be like, that's a depressed woman. And I think we have this picture of this like woman who's like in her gray sweatsuit that stained and her hair is crazy. And she hasn't slept in days. And she's just like rolling up to the bus stop looking like, she's been run over by a truck. Like, I think that's what every picture is. It's like, that's the depressed woman, right? That's her. No, the woman who's in like the dress like Katie or whatever has her hair done couldn't possibly be. Which is so funny. It couldn't possibly be. Yeah, I've always, like I've struggled with anxiety, depression my whole life. I've always been high functioning. I've always had the worst depression in my life, but gotten always. And I've always shown up like this, even though inside my mind is on fire. And it's just, I was raised that way. Like, I was raised by a dad who always told me the worst you feel the better you get to look. Like, that's how I was raised. And it's just like, I hate weakness. I hate asking for help. And when I heard that closing argument that made me so rage inside, so when rage, because it's just like way to throw a woman back into the shadow. And you can't, you can't see mental illness. You can see a broken wrist. You can see the cast. You can see a cast on a foot. You can see crutches. You can't see mental illness. Yeah. And I think the thing about it is it's painting this picture that like, yeah, it's, it's the same for everyone too. Which it's not right. It's so real. It's not the same for everyone. I think that's the problem, which is, right, like, I didn't struggle with postpartum anxiety or depression or psychosis, but I struggled in other ways. And I still looked totally fine over. Like, Paige has a together. Paige is crushing. And like, she's got her hair done. And she's wearing jeans and drop off at 7 a.m. and it's like, I have mom friends who are like, I remember looking at you and being like in awe, mind you, I'm at home being like, my life is like a mess. Like, I'm so upset right now, but like, you don't let other people see it. And I think that is the whole thing, like, with this trial, which I think is like good and bad. I think it's bringing women together to have these conversations about postpartum mental health. And what it looks like and to have these conversations, but at the same time, I think there's so much scrutiny. Like, there's Matt Wall. She's a right wing commentator who said, there's no such thing as postpartum depression. It's just that people are selfish and the more selfish you are, the harder motherhood will be for you or he said parenthood, but you know, he's talking about moms. So the harder parenthood would be for you. So if you're a person who's depressed, it's probably because you're really selfish before kids. I love when men talk about it's the best, the best, the best, the best. You know, they know so much because they've been through so much of it that it really think it's just wonderful to hear their way and they also happy they're making laws about it. I was just saying, you get to see that picture of like all of the men in the one room making it was I forget for what law they were like, it was like a maternal mental health or maternal health meeting and it was just all old white men. There was a one woman in the room. It's like, well, yeah, I love that they don't know where it is, but they want to make all of it. So find the clip and then talk to them. You literally point it out. But yes, close it out. I think it really does bring the conversation is what does PPD and PPI look like and have functioning women and we have to stop the assumption that just because somebody looks like they're holding it together doesn't mean that they are just still always asking, yeah, how are you feeling? Are you okay? And just trying to cover that? I think something that I've heard people talk a lot about in regards to Lindsey Clancy case as well is this like making something like this sensationalized and what that is going to mean for postpartum mental health because now our women going to be afraid to talk about their intrusive thoughts because they don't want to come across as dangerous because so, I mean, speaking, we haven't really talked about postpartum psychosis, one in a thousand women on average. It's still a lot. It is. It's still a lot. Right. That I was like, that's a lot. Maybe when I was talking about this because I live near, we're going to the Clancy case. A lot of the stuff, a lot of things happen in Massachusetts, you know, so it's a huge topic of conversation because like a lot of us gave birth at her hospital and like we like people have had her as a nurse, right? And so, or have worked with her, like my friend works in the NICU there and we were at dinner, again, when we think about our mom group, it's like how many people at this table have struggled. Every single woman pretty much knew at least one person who had had psychosis, like a close friend or a cousin or a sibling, and I was so surprised, I was like, wow, I'd never heard of this. I'm like, yeah, it was really scary. And nobody talks about it. And the risk is there, I think, with multiple pregnancies, right? If you have another child, like the risk is higher. And so, yeah, I mean, that's still a huge number. That's a massive number. Yeah, I thought that was a matter. That was like struggling to me because I think for the lack that we talk about it, I would think we would talk about it more in a thousand. I think the struggle to your point is like, this is very sensationalized. And the question is, will it be for the best, where we'll actually pay attention and listen to women and provide more care, or is women's mental health being weaponized? Because that's the other thing. There are people who are saying, oh, these women are dangerous, if they have intrusive thoughts, they shouldn't have their children. It's being used as a tool against women, as everything is politically these days, but it's a little scary. I remember the first time I saw a video, it was kind of like a funny video kind of making front of like intrusive thoughts online, I just felt the biggest sigh of relief because I was like, oh my gosh, okay, I am not alone because literally when I have even, I was talking about we are vacation and we have, we had this balcony on the condo and I couldn't even stand on the balcony because I'm like, all my kids are gonna fall over. Like that's what's gonna happen in the video, the woman walking by the wood chipper and saying, like, does anybody else get nervous as they walk across, like, you know, there's a wood chipper on the other side of the road with my baby gets sucked into it. And of course, a man stitched it and was like, this woman should have her child taken away. And it's just like, that's what, as of right now, when we are filming, that's the verdict has not come out for Lindsey Clancy, but I do worry that if the verdict is that she is not, I don't know, the correct, she's a criminal criminally liable or not. Yes. And so if she is criminally liable, it just like what is the repercussions of that for women who are trying to speak out. And honestly, I feel like we don't talk enough about how Lindsey tried so hard to get help. Yeah. She tried so hard. She called, she tried therapy, she tried everything, and the system incredibly failed her. Yeah. And the support around her. And most people don't have access, and like, even with all the resources and the money and the family support. A very privileged white woman. White woman struggled to gain access to the help that she needed and people don't believe women think about how many other people have so much less. support, right? So it's just, yeah, it's really really, I think this case for better or for worse, I think has brought it to the forefront of the conversation. And that and he didn't panic here, obviously, sadly, passing away, I think also was what the neutrogena of it all was really an interesting conversation. Have they sent anything about that? I don't know. But essentially, if you didn't see she, like, after her passing an interview with Jay Shetty came up where she had talked about how when she spoke up about postpartum depression on the today show, neutrogena dropped her because she had a morality clause and that was apparently against their morals, which I'm like, what? Because typically if you're a content creator, like, we know this, but there's morality clauses in our contracts. So if we do something that they deem immoral, gambling, whatever you get arrested, drunk driving, they can drop you. They essentially dropped her for having postpartum depression, which I think is like, I will say what I do think that has changed very much. Oh, totally. It's industry wide, I think, as is like, you know, involved in the motherhood space and creating content. Like, I think all of us feel comfortable to talk about postpartum depression. But I mean, I do think there is like stickiness, like politics and stuff like that. Yeah, like I definitely am the person who probably hears from the most men on the internet. Like, it's a tricky place to be to like speak out about these things. But I think, yeah, I think it's becoming much more accepted. The question is like, how different would her experience have been if that hadn't been right? Like, if she had an experience that from Neutrogena or the backlash from speaking out, and like, how different would it be for so many women? Yeah. And instead of critique, you got support for those moments. And I think that's what like, I hope I can be for my friends. Like, if they called me, even if I've never experienced it, like, at least you can be there as a supportive person who can listen and understand. And like, I think if you, even if you've never understood, I will say this as a person who's never personally lived it, I think the least we can do, even if we don't understand it, is to just be there for people. Like, you don't have to understand it. You can just listen to them. And I think that is a roadblock for a lot of people because I think they don't, they don't know how to support someone. And I don't, I think back to what we were talking about earlier, they don't know how to sit in the discomfort because when, once we feel like others discomfort or uncomfortable emotions, it's like, oh, I just want it to be okay. And I want to fix it, right? And it's like, you don't need to fix it. Just be there. Yeah. Just be there. Yeah. And checking in. Yeah. I continually checking in. Yeah. I, I think it's, I wish, I wish villages were more just like given to us. Right. That's where our commune. We got to build the commune. Yeah. We've talked about that. We, many episodes ago, building our female commune. Yeah. And this was obviously a heavy episode. And I think like, we're all having this conversation as three women who like absolutely love being moms and like, I have a lot of support and have a lot of support. And like, I'm four years postpartum, which I'm still, I'm still postpartum, guys. My hair never came back. My butt's recovered. I mean, you know, like, the butt is never recovered. You're always postpartum. I'm literally always. I find all my clients. I'm like, once you have a baby, you are always postpartum. Yeah. Are there any closing remarks you want to add before we go? No, I think it's just really concentrating on, you know, the nuance of this all with these stories being in the news and at the forefront. I think obviously they are very tragic, sad situations, but I am, I don't want to say happy. I don't know what the right word for it, but I think it's really important that these discussions are being had. Yeah. And where can we take it going forward? Where can we continue these discussions? Can we, I think we have like a minute before we have to wrap up, like, I think if we all give like a piece of like advice like that I would give to my best friend, which would just be like, I already said this like, if you can get a therapist before you have a child, so that way you have a support system after I know not everybody can access a therapist. And then also I think if you can have these conversations with trusted people in your life ahead of time and say, I don't know that I'll experience any of these things. But if I do, can we talk about it before? Yeah. Because I think we don't do that enough. We don't say anything before we wait till it's happening and when it's happening, it's really hard to reach out for help. So like, when I give advice to my friends or family members, it's always like those are the two things. I'm like, just have these conversations early and often with the people that you trust the most. And if you can get yourself a therapist. Yeah, I also had similar to Sam an anti-depressant on deck for my second because once I had realized that I didn't even know I had postpartum, that's another thing is like I didn't know I had postpartum depression till 10 months after. Right. So I didn't know, like he just said I didn't know. I think 85% of women experience baby blues quote unquote. I don't even know what a baby blue is blue. What's blue? What's blue? Um, but I think, you know, having for the second after I realized what I experienced, I told my doctor, I said, can I please have a prescription ready for what I need it? And just, I mean, I giving a big hug to yourself and and giving yourself grace because when I went through my second experience without postpartum depression anxiety, I mourned so much for myself and I wouldn't anything wish I could just give it myself the biggest hug because I thought I was such a failure. And I think for me, I it's less of advice, but knowing if you are going through this, you are not a failure. And this is such a common thing. And I know it's made to feel like demonized or lonely, but it is so unbelievably common. It doesn't make you a bad mother. It doesn't make you a bad person. You are just it's the same as being sick or breaking a bone. You are experiencing something that is in mental health condition that deserves more treatment, more research. And you're honestly a victim to that. And that society is not doing enough about it. Yeah, that's what I was going to say more so than advice just for anybody listening who like as we were talking, they're like, yeah, yeah, like you're not alone. You're not alone. It's not your fault. And I think knowing that you're not alone is really really important. And I think you know we started this podcast because we wanted it to be an extension of our group chat that we're having these conversations. And I'm really proud of us for having this conversation. And for this being the first deep dive because I think it'll hopefully reach whoever needs to hear it. Yeah, whether you're listening to it now, a year from now, you know, feel free to reach out to us to extend a hand because like share it with a friend who might need us. Yeah, send us a DM. We're all here for each other. Yeah. So unfortunately, we do have to go. But like you said, we're sending a big hug to everybody listening. You're doing great. Yeah. Yeah. Bye. Bye guys. Talk to you later. Thank you so much for listening to The Justice Girls Podcast. We are so grateful that you chose to spend time with us today. If you love this episode, be sure to follow, like, subscribe, wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review as well. We would appreciate it so, so much. Coming out with us on Instagram at the Just Us Girls pod. And you can also find us on substack at the Just Us Girls pod dot substack dot com. Where we share even more from each episode, little behind the scenes and all the good stuff you don't want to miss. We can't wait to chat with you next week. Bye.