Deconstructing Purity Culture

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It's a movement that's left lasting impressions on how many women understand their bodies, their sexuality, and their sense of self. This topic is captivating and at times can be really emotionally heavy. Andrea is here to offer insight, hope, personal experience, and a path for anyone who's been burdened by shame and is ready to reclaim their pleasure and their voice. Dr. Andrea Jones grew up in Papua New Guinea and Senegal, West Africa. She began her career in psychology as a case manager working with sexually abused children. After getting her master's degree in social work, she worked with troubled teens and their families and then opened private practice. Andrea has a doctorate in clinical sexology and is a licensed clinical social worker and an asect certified sex therapist and she is in Pennsylvania now. She also wrote a book called Deconstructing Purity Culture to Embrace Sexual Pleasure, which talks about how women from these controlled religious communities often have deep religious sexual shame and how its teachings have affected the sexuality and pleasure of generations of women and their sexual desire, their pain during sex, and sexual dysfunction. Deconstructing Purity Culture. In this book, she gives guidance and tools to identify the messages that women have gotten about sex and pleasure and the gender role of women in our society so that women can be free to decide what they believe and what they want to preserve and what they want to change or discard in their life as they move forward. Andrea, I'm so happy to be talking with you. Thank you for coming on. I really value your experience and your knowledge in this area. It's really not often we get someone who's so willing to share with our sexy listeners. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here. Thank you. Is there anything in the introduction that I missed or got wrong or something else you want to share? Nope. That was perfect. Okay. Great. So, can you tell us a little bit more about growing up in New Guinea and West Africa? What was that like for you? So my parents were missionaries. They actually just retired after like 42 years of doing that. I was born in Papua New Guinea, which is the island above Australia. And so we lived there for a couple of years and then moved to Senegal, West Africa, but then came back to Papua New Guinea. And so my whole life was overseas. And then every four years, we would come back to America to visit and to raise support because missionaries raise support in order to be overseas. And so we would have to just drive all over the country to meet all these new random people that were strangers to me to basically ask for money to then be able to go back overseas. So that was the first 18 years of my life. I got to tell you, similar to my growing up, because I grew up in the circus. Yeah, I know, my father was in the circus, Clyde BD Cole brothers. And so, you know, it was a little, a little bit similar. I mean, there was a lot of traveling around. I grew up in a lot of different houses by the time I was 10. And there was a lot of weird stuff with money too. But I think the religion growing up for me was about freedom. Like don't tell me what to do. You know, I'm not going to fit in with everybody else and and try to align with what society is going to tell me to do. And you know, my mother used to say that everyone in the circus was running from something and everyone had a fake name. And I don't know if that was true. It was a long time ago. And I honestly don't remember a lot, but it sounds like your experience was almost the opposite. Like the idea of a religious, a religious culture is that people are trying to align with an organization of other people telling them what to do and how to be. Is that right? Right. So we were the complete opposite. We basically, I grew up in a world where we believed we knew the truth. We knew the one and only God, the only way to heaven. And we felt that we should go to other countries to educate people and teach them about our religion and this truth that we knew. So you had all this freedom. And basically now, as a grown up, I can see that we were taking the freedom away from all of these people all over the world, which just makes me so sad. But growing up, I didn't know that I thought we were doing the right thing. Wow. And how did they respond? And it is so true, like I grew up in total neglect, like raised by wolves, ran free in the streets. No one told me to brush my teeth. And yet you had this other experience of your family telling other people what to do, whether they wanted to do it or not. But what was the response to that, those people that they were trying to convert? So unfortunately, missionaries have been around forever or a very long time. So we weren't a new idea or new concept when we were there. So the national people were very open and welcoming to us. But also we brought money, right? We had things they didn't have. We brought jobs to people that didn't have jobs. And so whether they believed what we were teaching them or not, I think we added to the quality of their life or the possibility of like making more money or getting things. And so they showed interest in us. It's fascinating. I mean, just from a relationship perspective, like what is the value that you bring? And what did you learn about that value? And what were you, what were you teaching them? And what did your family teach you about what it meant to be a girl? What it meant to be a woman? What it meant to be a wife? Like how did you learn from them about your role in the world? So like many evangelicals, there's a hierarchy in gender and also in marriage. And so men are the head of the household and women are submissive. We're the caregivers. We have the babies. We take care of everyone. And so I was taught that basically my biggest goal in life growing up was to have like six babies to meet an amazing Christian man by the time I was 20 and get married and be a stay-at-home mom who raised these beautiful little Christian kids. That's what I was taught. Now obviously people go to women, go to college and that was an option, but I had a number of teachers in high school tell me they just didn't think I had what it took to go to college. And honestly, I'd just be a really good wife, which is ironic since now I have a PhD. But yeah, so I was taught that I need to be submissive. I need to be modest. Definitely virginity until marriage was very, very important. In fact, it's the greatest gift that you can give your husband is your virginity. And let men lead. That was very, very important in order to feel safe in the world. You have to be with a man. So that's kind of what I was taught. Yeah, not just kind of, but you definitely worked on that. I mean, how is that different than your life today? Well, my life is completely different today. Ironically, I run my own practice. I have a wife and I only have two children. I don't have a belief in God anymore. I am not in a religion. Yeah, so I went the completely opposite way, which for a lot of people that I grew up with, I broke all the rules and I'm a big disappointment. Oh, and you're a sex therapist. Add that to the list, right? That's not acceptable either. Oh my God. So but you did, you know, with all due respect, drink the Kool-Aid for a long time. And this is not to say that other people that are religious are, you know, in a cult or that they're being hypnotized into believing these things. Like everyone has a wide range of freedom to believe what they want. But that's, we're distinguishing that from what we're taught. So at some point, you know, we can be independent adult thinkers and make our own decisions. But up until that turning point, there is, there is like an indoctrination into what our parents teach us about the world. And, you know, we buy in because, I mean, we're not puppies. We're like, you know, we're humans. We need our parents. So, you know, that's, those are the things we're taught. So, I mean, how, how, how did you, I just want to get ahead of myself when I want to know everything all at once. But first tell us about like the purity thing, because that was a part of what you define as part of your personal experience. And what's the difference between like religious belief and purity culture? So that's a pretty tough question. I thought about it for a while, because for me and my brain, they're very connected. But when I thought about it, I think religious belief in a perfect world would be, you still have flexibility. You still have free choice. You get to have a personal definition of what you believe. And the journey is based on your experiences, like you're more in control. With purity culture, it's the complete opposite, right? It's an indoctrination of a belief system. You don't have choice. You're told what is right or wrong. There's black and white. There is no flexibility or freedom. So, for me, that's kind of the difference between having a religious belief versus purity culture. Can you define what purity culture is? And did you have a purity ring? I sure did. I had a purity ring and a purity bracelet. And I had a purity Bible, because there was a special Bible that was created for women or girls, you know, about the importance of purity. But defining purity culture is really big. It's a huge, it's kind of like this umbrella, right? So there's a lot of different parts in purity culture, and honestly, everybody has their own kind of definition of it, but some basic concepts of purity culture. So the Evangelical Christian Church, after the sexual revolution, kind of panicked a little bit. And they were like, "Listen, we've got AIDS going on. We've got all of this premarital sex. We have teen pregnancy. We're losing the traditional family," right? They felt that our culture was hypersexualized. Purity culture really focused on purity of mind, body, and spirit. So it wasn't just don't have sex. It was don't think about sex. Don't touch your body. It's bad. Don't masturbate. Don't experience pleasure, especially as a woman, right? Outside of heterosexual monogamous marriage. A big part of purity culture for women was we were the sexual gatekeepers. So basically, all of the responsibility of sexual purity and modesty of the community was put on women. So we had to protect ourselves from our own sexuality and pleasure, and we had to protect men from their sexuality and their pleasure. Because the impurity culture, they believe that men are inherently sexual horny beings that cannot control their sexual urges. And so it's our job as women to make sure that they don't stumble. That's a big word, impurity culture, right, on their journey with Christ. And so all of that responsibility was put on women. And that, as a whole, is just what purity culture is, at least to me. I know in our culture right now, purity culture is kind of a big thing that people are talking about, but it's so much more than just don't have sex before you get married. It's be that traditional woman that is submissive and doesn't go to work and has lots of babies and there's so many more levels to purity culture. I had this conversation recently with this group of women that I call my coven, that we hang out, we go on retreats together. And I had this awakening, I was like, you know what, I feel like I've spent so many lifetimes churning, but I'm not churning anymore. I feel like churning has become this symbolic thing of just working really super hard at something that's going to return very little, and it's such a woman's job, and I'm not churning anymore. I'm not doing it on this lifetime, I'm just not churning. And what you're describing, it just feels like that same kind of responsibility, like you're responsible for the churning and you're responsible for everyone's sexual urges. And that's just such a, like a societal thing in a lot of cultures. You need to cover yourself up because if a man sees your ankle, he will get out of control and then the society will collapse. I mean, Eve ate the apple and destroyed civilization because she couldn't control herself and she couldn't control Adam, and I mean, there's this interesting issue around women's power and their sexuality, and maybe they're not wrong. Like if we did have freedom around pleasure and power, we probably could take over the world, so they should be scared, but what a way to teach repression so that women could be controlled, like from such an early age, from such a young age, from the time you think about sex and you wonder about pleasure and you think about touching yourself and to be told that it's so dangerous and so evil, it's so, so much responsibility. Yeah, and the whole your body is dangerous, right? I think that's created so much of the sexual dysfunction in women who grew up in purity culture because you literally made yourself disconnect from your body because your body was so dangerous, it had the ability to make men lust after you and stumble and it could bring the whole community down, right? And so my body has all this power and that is dangerous, so what I need to do is I need to cover my body, I need to hide my body, I need to not connect with it or allow it to experience any pleasure because what happens if my body takes over, right? And so then women who then try to have sex later on, right, yes, the brain is the biggest sex organ, but if you're disconnected from your body, you're not going to be able to experience that pleasure and connection. Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. So with purity culture, you know, were you supposed to be like married to God until you got married to your husband and are men committed to purity as well or is it just the girls? So there's different perspectives on like the whole married to God thing. I grew up being told that, you know, basically date God, he's your boyfriend until you find your prince charming. And and so I'm sorry, but that's that's making me laugh. I'm so sorry. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but that's hysterical. Just date God for a while. Right. And you know, honestly, girls would talk about like I had a really, you know, I had a great devotion this morning, God really spoke to me. He loves me more than anything. But there was also another part where basically fathers were in charge of you, right, until the day that you got married where they would pass that over to your husband and he would then be in charge of you, right, which we see in traditional marriage wedding ceremonies where the dad gives the daughter to to the husband. So there were things like purity balls that pure purity culture did where basically daddies and their daughters would go on dates. They would have these big ball gowns. It was all about not being in love with your dad, but he was like your protector and he was the man in your life until one day you would be given to this other man. And so it's kind of like my dad was that, but also this whole idea of like Jesus being the man of my life. Is your family still in the religion? Yes. So my parents are still very much part of the evangelical world. They have, I would say, branched out a little bit, especially since I came out as not being heterosexual and they've learned to embrace and accept my, again, quote, lifestyle choices. And they're they're coming over a little bit, but at their core, they still have those beliefs. And so that makes it pretty hard to have a deep relationship with them. That must be that must be hard for you and for your wife. It is. Yeah, it's a challenge. Yeah. And for your kids too, complicated. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have siblings too? I do. I have two younger brothers. My one brother works in Kenya with his wife and his children. They aren't missionaries, but they work in a religious kind of world with Kenyans. And then my youngest brother land in, he has nothing to do with religion whatsoever. So he and I kind of went the opposite way where my other brother went with with my parents. So what was the the impetus that made you sort of wake up and say that, you know, I don't think I'm really going to marry God. So actually from really young, I had a lot of questions. I would ask all kinds of questions that the adults didn't want to answer or they didn't know how to answer. You know, I didn't want to be like the cool girls in the Bible. I wanted to be the girls that were kind of bad girls in the Bible. And so I didn't really fit in ever. But as as I began to grow up and I experienced a lot of sexual abuse from people on the mission field, starting at age four or five, I started to figure out there's something wrong here. And I'm being told one thing, but something completely different is what my lived experience is. And so I'm not, I had a lot of cognitive dissonance, like it didn't make sense to me how we were supposedly like these amazing Christians, but then you're hurting me. And so I really left, began to leave the church and the belief system, I would say probably at age 15 is when I really started. My hardcore deconstruction journey started in 2019, where I was like, listen, I'm kind of in between. I'm still being impacted by a lot of these weird intrusive thoughts and beliefs. I can't do this anymore. I have to really figure out who I am and what I believe. So it's kind of in my whole life I didn't fit in, but really hardcore deconstructing since 2019. Well, I love the term deconstructing, and we can talk more about that, but I don't want to skip over the fact that you were abused on your mission trips at such a young age. I'm so sorry that that happened, that's awful. And that's incredibly traumatic. So you have this religious community that's supposed to protect you and guide you and be the safe space in a world that is supposedly dangerous, and we're different and we're safe, and we're going to guide you through your life until we can hand you over to someone else who's going to be safe. But all around you is this dangerous, intrusive, hyper sexually abusive stuff going on. I'm sorry. And you need to write a memoir. I'm surprised that you haven't. Actually, I've already been asked to do that, so I'm working on it. Yeah. You can get on that. Yeah. So, unfortunately, it's very common on the mission field for sexual abuse to happen. Also domestic violence happened a lot because when you think about the hierarchy in marriage and you think about men being the head of the household, we don't talk about it, but there were a number of kids I went to school with whose parents were doing domestic violence or the kids were experiencing domestic violence, but we just didn't talk about it, right? But we all knew it was happening, and we accepted it because, well, what did she do? I mean, she must have not followed the rules or he's just teaching her a lesson. And that's not everyone on the mission field, but I definitely grew up with people who experienced that, and the sexual abuse was intertwined in that. Oh, that's such a horrible setup. I'm just, yeah, I'm having a visceral reaction to that. It's like the worst of the patriarchy mixed with the religious entitlement. Yes, they definitely go hand in hand. Yeah. So, when you turn 15, that's like the beginning of separation and individuation where you start to become your own person, you start to think about your sexuality. Did you always know you were gay or bi? Is that okay to ask? Honestly, now that I look back, I think I always knew, but because being gay was not an option because if you're gay, you go to hell and you're not born gay, it's a lifestyle choice. So the first person I remember sexually abusing me was a girl. And so that created a lot of confusion for me because I thought, well, maybe it's because of that that I am attracted to women. There's something wrong with me. It's God punishing me because I got abused like it was my fault. I'm four or five years old. It's not my fault. But of course, that's what I started thinking. And so then in high school, I was boy crazy, but I really had a desire for girls. I felt more safe with women. We were allowed to be physical with each other because we were friends. So we could have sleepovers and hold hands and cuddle where we weren't allowed to even talk to boys about anything like that. We couldn't hold hands. We couldn't kiss boys because then you're not modest or pure. So in high school, I just pushed it down. I was like, oh, they're just my friends. And then in college, I gave myself permission to play around with some women. And that was really fun, but a lot of shame for me because it was a sin. And so then it wasn't until 2019 when I really started to give myself permission to look at what turns me on? What do I actually desire? Who makes me feel alive? And I realized I don't feel that with penis owners at all. I really feel that with vulva owners. And so I gave myself permission to begin to go down that path. And I've never been happier. And you tossed the purity ring. You're like, OK. That's it. I sure did. I absolutely threw that thing out. Wow. I mean, I just love hearing your coming out story because it's so brave of anybody to come out and to themselves, much less the community and their family, but to do it from such a background of repression and shame and guilt and trauma. And that says a lot because you risk so much disconnection and excommunication. I mean, you risk a lot of loss to do that. Right. And I was married to a boy at the time. So that was another big thing because I knew if I actually let myself come out, I wasn't only losing my family, potentially, and all my friends who were Christians, but also my marriage was going to be over. Right? How is this going to impact my kids? Have I completely messed them up? And I just got to a point where my body literally could not accept physical touch, let alone penetration from a boy. And I went to this-- I have this therapist who's an energy worker. And we were talking to my vulva in a session, and we were really trying to figure out what was going on. And as clear as day, this voice just came in my head that was like, "Drea, I don't want to have sex with penises anymore." And so I told my therapist that, and she's like, "Drea, you have to tell him." And I thought, "I'm going to blow up my entire world." But I knew that if I didn't, my body was going to continue to totally shut down. And so I did it and blew up my world, but it was totally worth it. I mean, I'm sad, and I love that story. And I've said this on the podcast before, and I say this to a lot of my clients. It's like, if you're a vagina, could talk, what would it say? And you just personified that so beautifully and in such a risky way. And the other thing that stands out for me is that you are talking about being married to a boy. I'm assuming he was a man. I mean, yeah, technically. Technically. Was he part of the church, part of your religion? No, he was not. He grew up in the church, but definitely was not anywhere near what I grew up in. And I would say was not a religious person whatsoever, despite growing up in the church. But yeah, he didn't come from that background. What you understood each other sounded like? On some levels, yeah. On some levels. We won't have to talk about your ex husband anymore, but I appreciate that you're so honest and transparent. It's not an easy thing to talk about. It makes sense to me that you're a therapist and that your experience must be bringing so much healing and freedom to your clients because I can hear it in your story. I can hear it in your voice and I can hear it in your emotions. And I just feel like your heart is really aligned with sexual freedom for women and for people everywhere. Like he said, you know, you aligned with the bad girls in the Bible. I'm like, who are they? Mary Magdalene, that's the only one I know of, but I don't see you as like a bad girl. I see you as a free woman. Like you really are standing up for pleasure as power and for women everywhere to make their own decisions. I love that. Thank you. I love that you see me that way. That's my goal. Well, good. No wonder they offered you a book offer. Like you are, yeah, I think personally and professionally, you were really saying, you know, this purity culture thing is, doesn't really work at least didn't work for you. Let's just put it that way. No. And there are people that feel that it did work for them and I celebrate with them, right? And there's a ton of us it didn't resonate with and there's a ton of us that it really has stunted us emotionally, intellectually, spiritually, sexually. And so one of the really important messages that I try to give in my book, but also with my clients is that I'm not here to ask you to leave religion or faith or change your religion or faith. What I want is for you to ask yourself, what do I believe? Why do I believe it? And is it adding to the quality of my life or is it taking away from the quality of my life? And if it is adding to the quality, cool, let's keep it. If it's not, we are allowed to look at it and change it and alter it in whatever way we want. And that's what I hope brings empowerment and freedom to these women who grew up in a black and white, right or wrong, everything has to be a certain way kind of world. Yes. And tell me who else besides Mary Magdalene is a bad girl in the Bible. Are there any? There are and I'm having it's okay, it's not a quiz. It's not a quiz. I was just wondering. But, you know, I wanted to ask you your opinion about like this new movement towards like trad wives on social media and tick tock, like these women that are churning butter, like Mormon wives, you know, the show, sex lives of Mormon wives, like there's a movement towards like really going back to these traditional roles like, I don't know, maybe it's the conservative political climate that we're under, but how do you feel about that? I don't know a ton about that. I don't watch a lot of TV, but I just think that in general, and I'm not a political person, but I think we are going hardcore back, right? We are trying to control women, control their sexuality, control LGBT, anything that is different than through the traditional family and patriarchy, we are trying to go back. So if we make being a Mormon wife sexy, or, you know, if we make being a stay at home, being a homeschooler with five kids sexy, maybe we can get people to go into that and then we can control them, right? So much of purity culture was also one of the ways that they kind of like got kids involved in purity culture is they tried to make it sexy, right? So they presented it in a way that if you wait, if you're pure, all these other people that are gross and doing these sinful behaviors, and so it was like cool to be pure. And so they had like purity panties, they had purity t-shirts, they had all kinds of jewelry, and like they tried to make it hip and sexy, kind of like what I think we're doing in our culture now is to make that traditional gender role, female, stay at home, whatever, sexy. And it's, it, and maybe it's sexy to some people, not sexy to me. Well, I love that they have merch, you know, like they're making money off this, it's hysterical. It's such like a church thing. Churches love to make money. It's what it's all about in the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't, I can't even go there. I grew up Catholic and I just remember, you know, the basket being passed around by the priest who had, you know, a big Rolex on his wrist, you know, and how when my parents broke up, you know, my mother was not allowed to go back to the Catholic church because divorced women, you know, I don't know, would catch on fire or something and, but my father could go back. My father who had never stepped into a church in his life, I don't think I think he would burst into flame if he had crossed over the threshold. But you know, that whole thing about, you know, I tried to get my daughter baptized because it meant something to my mother when she was alive. But I didn't belong to a church and I couldn't get her into a church because I hadn't paid any money to all these Catholic churches and they were like, no, you know, you have to pay the dues or whatever they call them for at least a year to get her, get her baptized. And I'm like, finally, by like the fifth Catholic church, I told the poor woman at the desk, I'm like, fine, my daughter will just have to burn in hell. And I hung up on her, I was like, I was like, I have to pay to get my daughter into heaven. Like that's basically what you're telling me, otherwise, you know, she's screwed. My mother ended up baptizing her like in Lake because it meant something to her. Like there are, there are parts of Catholicism that meant something to her, the parts that bother me are clear and they bother a lot of people. So we don't go into, we'll do, we'll do, we'll do another whole podcast interview with the Catholic priest someday. But I appreciate your freedom and your power around your voice around freedom. You know, I think, you know, Rev Bev, Rev Beverly Dale, she wrote a book called Who Told You You're Naked? Like it's all about how we really interpret the Bible and the, you know, sort of religious dictates of like, where, where did you, you know, integrate this idea that sex was bad and women were shameful and where is the passage that gay is not okay? And she'd kind of, you know, deconstructs it. And I love that you said that girls had their own Bible, their own purity Bible. That's just hysterical. It's like almost the opposite of making books today, you know, sort of language and gender friendly and, you know, it's sort of doing the opposite, like sucking all the gender friendly language out of the Bible so that they could make it for, for girls for their purity, purity orientation. Because they, they, having different gender identities and roles is so key to purity culture. So they had men's Bibles, they had boys Bibles, right? They had girls Bibles. It was all targeting the specific type of person to get us to fall into the box because if you fall into the box, we can control you. If you think outside of the box, we can't control you. So even with your statement about your mom after they got divorced, couldn't go back to the church, but your dad could see, we just made the woman, the gatekeeper again. It was her fault that the marriage fell apart. She should have kept it together. That's what we were told. You choose love, right? Love is something that you, you have to choose each and every day and you have to just do whatever it takes to make this marriage work and to make this man happy. When men cheat in, in purity culture or in evangelicalism, the first person they go to is the wife. Were you not having enough sex? What did you do or not do? Instead of saying, hey, yeah, I played a role. If there's infidelity, we both played a role, but I'm not, it's not all my fault, right? But we automatically go to the woman. I mean, those, those cultural imperatives are so prevalent in our, you know, in our Western culture. So it's interesting. Like that's, that's how it, it sort of drills down into our therapy world too. Like a lot of therapists really, you know, polarized therapy and there's always a victim and a perpetrator and it's easy to get aligned with, with the victim perpetrator model. And then to think you're the rescuer as the therapist, you know, like, if we can just get the perpetrator to apologize and the victim can give them forgiveness, then, you know, we can move on and stop talking about it. Like, why are you holding on to this? Why are you still mad at me? Yeah, it's fascinating. Can you, can you just tell me a little bit about the deconstruction model that you have gone through? Yeah. So the deconstruction for me, the, the book, I'm a bookaholic. The book that really helped me figure this out was, is called Leaving the Fold. And it was written by a missionary kid. I can't think of her name right now cause I'm, yeah, but she's amazing. And so I could really relate to her because she grew up in the same world that I did and she's a therapist now. And so she started to, to really challenge me to look at the beliefs that I have and then whose voice it was, when and where I learned that and how it was adding to my life or taking away from my life. And so one of the things that I did is I took this idea that Emily Nagowski has and come as you are with the garden concept, right? And she's talking about something totally different, but it resonated with me. And so I drew a garden and it was me. And I put all the plants in it, which represented beliefs or values. And as I began to color it in and, and label it, I started to look at what beliefs and values I actually wanted in my garden and the ones that I didn't want in my garden. And I realized that so much of what I was holding onto was planted into me. It isn't something that I actually chose. So then I was able to step back and create the garden I wanted. I, I wasn't there yet, but I drew what I wanted. And the way I thought about it was I thought, what garden do I want my daughter to have? And that is how I began to say, okay, Dreia, this is what you've been planted. This is what's been planted in you. This is what we want to give to our kid. How can I give that to me? And so that's how I began to work through it. And I did a lot of energy work and noticing how things when I would say it out loud sat in my body. So I am not deserving of pleasure. How does that sit in my body? I know it's what I was told, but it doesn't sit well, right? And so then I would, when I would have that thought, like if I was having sex and I thought, it's all about giving this person pleasure. It's not about me. I don't deserve to have pleasure. I would stop and I would say to myself, but one day I hope I am a, I allow myself to experience pleasure. Right? I couldn't go to your deserving of pleasure, Dreia, but I want to believe that one day. And so it just was a lot of self-talk, a lot of journaling, a lot of therapy. And that's how I began to deconstruct and then reconstruct who I am today. Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And when we come back after this short break, I am going to ask you before we end, if you have advice or people who are trying to deconstruct their own historical experience with religion. So we'll be right back. Have you started to think about that sexy date night? Well, here's just a sampling of some of the cards. Touch your partner in a way that you'd like to be touched. Or how about this one? Describe a sexual fantasy you would never take into action, but have thought about. To get your deck, just go to Amazon and type date night card deck, Tammy Nelson. That's date night card deck, Tammy Nelson. Take your exciting and sexy date night today. Have you ever considered going to a retreat? Retreats allow you to focus on what's important in life. Hi, I'm Dr. Tammy. 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We may use it on a future episode. So, welcome to the show, Dreia. I'm so happy to be talking with you and we're really talking about pleasure and how to deconstruct from those messages that are really around shame and guilt and religion and what purity and the ideas around purity can do to us. And not just women, although I tend to think it's tougher on women because of the gender roles that are sort of imposed on us. And I really appreciate the work that you've done on yourself personally and how you are now bringing it into your professional life to help others. Like, what a mission. Thank you. So, we have a question from a listener, Candace from Wisconsin. I come from a very religious family. Thanks, Candace, for writing and I really appreciate it. I have followed the traditions of my family. I've been married for 10 years and my husband and I have been raising our kids in the faith. The problem is I no longer believe in God in the same way and I no longer want to be married. Candace, put a dilemma. This is so scary for me to type, but I have no idea how to start divorcing myself from my faith and my husband. How do I begin to separate myself and my children so we can live a life making our own choices? I know this is a big question, but how do I find support and the courage to take the first step? Oh, Candace, you are so brave to just write in and you have found the right people to talk to. So, you're not alone as much as it might feel like it and at first I want to make sure you feel safe and that you have a place to be in case things are not safe and that, you know, that's the number one priority that you and your children feel like you have support in your community in case you're not physically or emotionally safe. And then, I'm going to turn it over to you, Drea, to see what your thoughts are. The first thing I would say to Candace is I'm so proud of you for knowing what you don't want. I think that growing up in many religious communities, we aren't given permission to acknowledge what we don't want, we're told what we don't want. And so, you've done the first part and that's huge. And now, it's about deciding what you do want and accepting that you're going to lose people in your life because you're giving yourself permission to choose what is right for you. But what's so beautiful about this is that when you lose people, if you lose people, you're going to make space in your life for other like-minded people who get it and who are going to support you and encourage you in finding you. And so, one of the biggest fears that many of us have who begin to leave religious communities is we're going to lose the community. We're going to lose the support. And it's actually the number one fear, I can't remember whose research this is, but I used it in my dissertation. It's the number one fear of people who want to lose a highly, leave a highly controlled religious group, the fear is the loss of community. So I want to promise you there is community out there and they will support you. I will tell you that I would come up with a plan, a really good plan, where am I going to go, who's going to be in my support system. If you're a therapy person, we need to find a therapist who understands deconstruction, who understands the religion that you're coming from or the faith system you're coming from, and then we do baby steps, right? And so, as you continue to work on you and come up with a plan, then when you pull the trigger and I did it, I get it, when you pull the trigger, it can feel overwhelming, it can feel like I just blew everything up, but you have a plan, you have some sort of a support system, and so you can lean on that knowing that there's so much out of your control, but you did set something up that is in control, right? So many women that I work with get to the 10-year mark of marriage, the 15-year mark of marriage, and they realize this isn't for me anymore. In religion, particularly purity culture, we're taught about the fairy tale narrative, right? You're a princess, you find this prince, you get married, you have amazing sex and babies, and you're fulfilled, and you find joy, and it's everything that you want, but so many of us who actually follow that don't find joy or fulfillment. In fact, we feel empty, we feel used, we don't feel connected to ourselves, and I'm just so proud of you for figuring out that the fairy tale that you were told is what brings you joy, doesn't bring you joy, and now you're gonna figure out what does, and here's the really cool part as a mom, is that you are gonna show your kids what love and joy and purpose look like, that there isn't a right or a wrong here. It doesn't have to be a certain way. We're allowed to be flexible and change the direction of our life so that when your kids grow up, they feel like, well, my mom did it, I can do it. I don't have to follow the black and white thinking, I can be my own person. So on those days where you feel like I can't do this, what the heck did I do? I ruined everything. I want you to look at those kids and I want you to remind yourself that you are showing them that change is possible. I love that, and that caring for yourself can be a priority. They need a parent that's happy. Yep, kids need to know they're loved and that they have happy, fulfilled parents, and if you don't feel loved or happy or fulfilled in your marriage and you're gonna go find that somewhere else, then that's the best thing you can give your kids. Yeah, that's a really nice answer. Well, Jaya, thank you. Is there anything you want to make sure we talk about or make sure you say to our listeners before we come to a close? I would say that it's for people who want to get help on this journey, average typical therapists are not taught how to walk someone through this. It's not part of the curriculum. A lot of therapists aren't even taught about sexuality, but then throw in religion, religious sexual shame. So when you're looking for a provider or a practitioner, do your research and find someone who really understands where you're coming from because we're taught in religion, well, in purity culture and evangelicalism, to not trust people outside the church. So the worst thing that I see happen all the time is that someone has the courage to begin this process of deconstruction and finding themselves and they go outside of the church to do this, but then they find a practitioner who has no idea where they're coming from and then that doesn't go well. So I would encourage you, like any other specialty, if you needed brain surgery, you'd find a specialist in brain surgery. You need to find a specialist in leaving whatever religious faith you're leaving or deconstructing and reconstructing. So that's the one thing I would really encourage you to definitely look for. I love that answer and I think, you know, we've had people on the show that left their Mormonism and that was the hardest part is that, you know, feeling like they were gonna get drummed out of the community. It's not so much like leaving the beliefs of the religion because they can be pretty deeply embedded in us and they're not necessarily wrong. If you are holding on to your spiritual life and that works for you, that's great. And if you can hold on to some community, that's great. It's the rules that people usually rebel against and that don't work for them anymore. Right. Yeah. Well, thanks, Traia. Is there any last advice that you might have for our sexy listeners? Well, I just want everyone to know that pleasure is your birthright, that you do not have to earn pleasure. You are deserving of it each and every day, whatever that looks like or feels like or sounds like for you. And yeah, if you have any questions about deconstructing, if you need help, I have a great website that you can go to, www.ondreajonescounseling.com. I have lots of information on there. I have a Facebook page. You can read my book. You can email me. I am literally an open book in here to help anyone in any way. Oh, I love that. So tell us how people can find you. What is your contact information? So my email address is Andrea K. Jones at gmail.com or you can find my website, which is www.ondreajonescounseling.com or I am on Facebook. I have a professional Facebook page that's just "ondreajonescounseling" and you can also read my book. And tell them how to find your book. It is on, it's not, I know, it's on Amazon. Don't be embarrassed, I sell everything on Amazon. Okay, okay, it's on Amazon and Google Books. Those are the two places that it's on right now. Perfect. And we will look forward to your memoir. Thank you. I'm excited. I want to help you. So you let me know what you need to support you to do that. Thank you. And thank you to all my sexy listeners for being here for another episode of The Trouble with Sex. Thanks to Drea Jones for joining us and all of her wisdom, you know, everything you've been through, I really feel like it's brought you to this moment to help at least one person who's been listening today. So thank you for that. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it's a pleasure. So sexy listeners, if you want to have one of your questions answered by one of our sexy guests, you can go to TheTroubleWithSex.com and click on Ask Dr. Tammy to leave your question for another episode. And also leave a comment and a review on our website, The Trouble with Sex or Apple or Spotify wherever you hear your episodes. I love to read what you have to say so you can contact me directly as well. Thank you everyone for being here. Stay safe. Stay sexy. Until next time, I'm Dr. Tammy. Have a question about your relationship or sexual wellness? Visit TheTroubleWithSex.com and click on Ask Dr. Tammy to send us your questions. For sex positive tips, live events and updates, join our mailing list and follow us on Instagram at TheTroubleWithSex. Listen to episodes of The Trouble with Sex on Apple Podcast and Spotify. Please share and rate the show. We so appreciate and thank you for supporting us. The Trouble with Sex is produced by Brandy Savitt. Audio for this episode was designed by Bethany Noel Productions. This episode was engineered and mixed by Bruce Hirschfield. Music by Bruce Hirschfield.