Decolonisation as a systemic approach. Silvester Kasozi interviewed.

Hello, I'm Professor Kate Bird and this is the development hubs, the power shift decolonising development. Today we're talking to Celeste Kazoozi from Light for the World Uganda. About the systematic approach they have implemented to decolonise the way they work as an organisation. Celeste speaks to us about the importance of involving all departments of an organisation in the approach to decolonisation, especially driving change locally from their country offices. We discuss the challenges of putting a system in place that responds to the needs of an organisation as a whole. And we talk about putting a strategy in place to approach decolonisation in a multi-lead way and interrogate the issue from different perspectives. Celeste speaks of his vision for the development and humanitarian space which is founded on respect, equity and where knowledge is valued regardless of its origin. Listen on for more and don't forget to like and follow. Also, you may want to sign up to our newsletter at devhubuk.org for updates and resources on decolonisation. This none for more. Welcome to the power shift decolonising development, the podcast series seeking to bring together thinkers, practitioners and activists to share ideas, inspire change and identify tools for practical action. I'm Professor Kate Bird, a socio-economist and director of the development hub. Today unfortunately my co-host Dr Non-Pilond Logo is unable to join us, but I'm very excited to be speaking with Silvesta Kazozi, who is a humanitarian and development practitioner, a sociologist by training and currently the country director of Light for the World Uganda, an organisation that works to spark lasting change for disability rights and eye health in Sub-Saharan Africa. He's also the co-chair for the organisation's decolonisation working group and disability inclusion enthusiast. For more on Silvesta and his work and the work of his organisation, please click on the show notes below this episode where you can find out more. Silvesta, can you tell our audience what led you and your organisation light of the world to think about decolonisation? Thank you very much, Kate, for that very good introduction of me. That most important result for having me on this. But the reason I am very passionate about decolonisation was that it was about to the time that I was actually an expert, a period that almost lived a little over 15 years and during that period of course working in different countries in Africa, Asia and the list. Experience barriers and plenty forms of racism. Unfortunately I didn't have a space within which to speak to somebody about it or sort of detoxified myself from those experiences. So for me coming to an organisation like light for the world about three years ago and one of the things I really found on the table at that time was an organisation diagnostic of what was called the DEI survey but of course with a specific component on racism. It was actually showed to that such a conversation about it could be had in an organisation and I thought that this would be an opportunity for me to speak out but also to help the organisation be different at least two things differently from what I did experience. So that's how I really got into it and there was no question about it when I was asked to join in and support me. But I also do think that at the time that was done actually as an organisation we were doing our strategy. For the next I think about five years that was around 2020. So it only made sense that that discussion was being heard then because then it would definitely be part of the strategy. But also now it speaks a lot to what we have as our values as an organisation now without any strategy which are basically respect and I think we all agree you can't be kind you can't be caring if your personal perpetuates racism or colonial in one way or the other then of course we do espouse accountability and that speaks a lot to being transparent we need to have conversations about you know what people feel about things that happen to them things that are said to them and in this case things that they feel are bordering on or actually racist in nature and then of course inclusion is a major part of our work and I think you sell a lot of our communications about inclusion of personal disability but we also know that inclusion is very very broad it's much more than disability it's inclusion of women inclusion of children but you also can talk about inclusion if you're racist because racism by its own nature or colonialism is discriminated so we really want to broaden our spectrum inclusion we need to speak to the news of colonialism. Of course, if I do learning I think you agree with me kid that there is no apex to learning about any subject more so colonialism that has been around for several years so we believe that we are learning trajectory learning more about what colonialism has done learning about what we can do the demystify stereotypes regarding the same subject but also learning about what we can do to prevent what has probably happened so several years ago and probably going on now from manifesting within the work that we do as an organization. Thank you Silvesta it's interesting that you came to this work with like the world through thinking about DEI because I suppose when I think about DEI I'm often thinking about HR in organizations and their recruitment and progression strategies which tends to focus quite on the individual and I think one of the the things about thinking about decolonisation is that it takes much more of a historical and structural perspective so I'm guessing with your work in the organizations you've had to bring those kind of two elements together which is in a way a much more kind of political action and I wonder if that has been challenging for you individually or for you as an organization to bring those two aspects together and to take more of a kind of systems wide political and historically embedded approach to thinking about equity. Yeah thank you very much for that question I think you cannot necessarily separate it too I mean it's not like one can work without the other if you think about it systems are created by people and it's the very same people can decide either to use them for their own good or for other reasons for which they are not really meant but at the same time it comes from what we feel as individuals based on what we feel either we feel good about something or bad that will get us to act about a system you know either to change it or to actually strengthen it in my case for example talking about this issue being one of the keep people leading the discussions about it is therapy I think being able to talk to people here and what people say whether I like it or not is very good for me as an individual but the fact that I get therapeutic support from this then speaks to how I can actually support an organization structure itself in such a way that it deals with these deals and that's precisely why for us we are taking more of a systemic approach because with a system regardless of which individual really comes into an organization the system will stay but the individuals will actually leave but also if it is really systemized actions that are seeking to really address issues of racism and colonialism then the impact can actually really be felt because if there are actions that are put in place to address something also means there are actions that are in place if something is actually not done but it also means that resources will have to be earmarked to be able to address issues that may actually arise so I think a systemic approach is good but it's very important first what we feel as individuals because organizations are not just systems organizations are actually people and in any case it's people create the systems to implement the systems or actually do not and by so doing actually sort of perpetuate things like colonial tendencies. Thank you Silvesta yes I absolutely agree with you that an organization can have beautiful protocols and policies but unless people genuinely agree with them and implement them in a whole hearted way then the procedures stage us that and they're not really living and breathing reforms. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the reforms that Light of the World has already engaged in around decolonisation. It sounds to me as though it's an environment in which you're able to pursue these agendas because it's interesting that you say you found these discussions to be healing discussions and therapeutic because I know many people of colour and many international organizations around the world have not found that to be the case they've actually come against hard barriers and it's actually been a very difficult experience for them so I'd be very interested to hear more about the light of the world and the approaches that they've already taken on this agenda. That is very true, Kate, because some organizations did, on the surface, seem to be like doing something about it, but when you really get to the bottom of things, it's me opposed to telling. I'm just glad that real steps are being taken here. And like I said at the very beginning, at least as of the time I joined the organizations three years ago, there was a diagnostic taking place, some sort of an audit about the status quo. And what that spoke to was actually the need to have at the time a DEI coordinator who would help us interrogate all the issues that had actually come through several. And like I said, racism was just one part of many other things that really came out of that survey. And what he also helped us is of course to come up with sort of ideas that would undertake systems that would put in place to be able to challenge rather to manage the gaps that had been identified. Then in our case, we realized that for decolonization to be taken seriously, there was need to have co-chairs for the discourse. With my supervisor, what the time was the international director of programs, yes, who you actually met in the Skillshare post, she reached out to me and another colleague was from Africa to join her to get the discussion going. Emma said wasn't a very easy one for me, but like I said, I think I got to the realization that this would be a journey that would be healing. And that's exactly what has happened. So we joined together. But then we also realized as co-chairs, we would not be able to bring about the change that we wanted alone. We needed people to talk to us, to give us information to critic what we were doing. So as a result, we created a working group, a sound online working group, a Tim's one, where we want to join the discussion on decolonization joins. In that we share videos, we share articles about issues to do with racism or colonization that sort of sparked discussions. And by so doing, of course, we were critical ourselves and ask ourselves what we can do or what we could have done differently or maybe we could actually have done the same ourselves. And then of course, one of the other actions we undertook is to try and do as much as possible, simultaneous translations for documents, for meetings and all that, because we were working currently about 10 countries, only offices in four. And all these countries have different languages. We have French, we have Portuguese, bordering on Spanish, we have English. And of course, these countries have their own dialects as well. So it was important for us to really get documentation into languages that those specific countries can understand so that as much as possible, we are inclusive. Beyond that, we also, as an organization, I found the trend going on and I'm glad that it has been kept. All the country directs of our country offices are actually nationals of those countries. And I think having worked in this place will struggle the risk of having nationals compared to people from the minority world. But in life for the world there's no question about it. And I think that is also going to be very important in contextualizing and localizing action regarding the colonization. But this did not come from nowhere. Our board, the Topmost Decision Making Body, 40% of the people there are of African descent, blacks of African descent for that matter. And it only makes sense that if you have that done at the Topmost Body, then it's easy to cascade it down. Or you can actually be more intentional. And we also do have more or less the same at the international management team level. And then, so beyond that, we also started introductory sessions within the organization about what we understand by colonization and decolonization and what direction, as an organization we want to take. So we've had discussions with different departments that includes HR, finance, programs, international management. And also within the Combs, as you know, that's a very, very important department in disseminating information. And the beauty about light for the world is that to be part of this global team, you don't have to be in Vienna, which is where really the organization started. There are lots of people who are actually in Africa, but are part of this global support system and are not necessarily restricting their support to the countries where they are best. Then of course, we've moved on again from that level to doing introductory sessions with country directors. Why this is very, very important is because one we need their support in driving the agenda at the cinema management level, but also we need their support to localize actions, because we shouldn't look at decolonization actions as something outside, in our case, the African countries, with being ideally from the majority world on the receiving end. We need to have it our own discourse amongst ourselves, because if we also don't look at the start of ways in which as countries, we perpetuate action that are keen to racism. So within our ethnic identities, I know that we have no more authority to question what people from the outside actually do. Lastly, we are working on an equals that we are going to use as our induction tool for all stuff getting into the organization, because of course it's not very easy getting all new stuff all the time putting them together, introducing them to the topic. And the thing about it, knowing that it's also a sensitive question, if anybody's embarrassed or feels challenged by the topic, if they're doing an equals, they would have no one around them to make them feel embarrassed or I mean they will do their own introspection within this. And of course you cannot claim you've not been able to watch it, it's going to be interactive, it's going to be inclusive, at least accessible for people with disability as well. So these are all the ways that we've been really working on. I mean they may seem many, but we also know that we really really have a long way to go as an organization. Even then we are just grateful that there has been that space to have the discussion and for us to be able to make the progress we have made to. Thank you Silvester. I mean that's a very multi-layered approach that you've taken and I'm very interested to hear the 40% of your board being Black people of African origin, because I'm sure that having that leadership impacts on the integration of these ideas right from the top. And it's great to hear that you've got an equals providing induction for all your new staff as well, but it sounds as though you've got an attitude to learning and personal transformation integrated into thinking about everything from finance through to communications, through to project design and so on. So that's very interesting. Thank you. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the challenges that you feel that you and the organization have faced in seeking to decolonise the way that you work, because what you've identified is a very positive narrative you talked about. Healing and it sounds as though the process of change in light of the world has been very smooth. I mean it sounds as that was an organization that was very open to change, had structured itself where it was ready to embrace these ideas, but I know that decolonisation is a complicated thing because it's rooting out ideas that have been deeply internalised. We don't always recognise the way that we've internalised these ideas about racial hierarchies around superiority and inferiority, Eurocentric thinking and so on and so forth. So I'd be very interested to hear whether you and/or the organization have come against challenges and what you think the next steps are that you would like to take both as an individual but also as the organisation. You can be certain about that. Luckily for us I think the challenges have been much fewer compared to the progress that we have, but you know we're only on the journey so we do not know what really really lies ahead. I think two of these is when you work in a space like ours, humanitarian development work, the outlook is that you're doing good, right? The fact that you're really helping all people who are in most need in this situation, persons with disability amongst others, but it is not enough to say you're doing good. There's a lot of other things that tag along everything else that we are doing. So just like you see with gender mainstreaming, you may be doing good, but probably if you are, I would say, gender blind, you'll be blind to the effects of what you're doing to either men and women or blind to what you're doing has as an effect on children. It could be a number of other facets. So the feeling that we already doing good enough, I think is something that we have to continue interrogating and challenging ourselves against the other is the issue of decolonization is a touch you want. In our case, depending on how you want to position yourself as an organization, it could have an effect on how you don't as view you. If they are very Eurocentric in nature, you could easily or likely lose their funding. So we also have to be careful as an organization. How do we present ourselves? Do we want to do it in a very radical way? We want to do it in a transitional way. And how do our major donors perceive it? And it's not just donors. Also our partners, because if you're talking about being the colonial, probably means, you know, a case as an organization giving more space for national organizations to say, implement programs and as providing more of a system, strengthening sort of support, which can as well be questioned because the question is, who gives you the moral grounds to say, you know, people need support or need their capacity to strengthen? And is your strengthened anyway? And then of course, you know, even for us as chairs, you are leading a discussion on a topic that you're also continuously learning about. You don't know how people view you depending on what you say or do. You believe you're doing, you're being well-meaning, but probably you could step on a few toes. But the question is, if you don't do it, who will? Then again, because it is touching, we knew how forums, where people are ideal, supposed to be speaking and they all get quiet. You ask yourself, am I doing the right thing? Have I posted the right information? But then being the communicator I have learned, the silence in itself, just like in music, we have silent beats, is communication. The question is, if people are so quiet, then it means either they understand everything or probably are simply decided not to listen to anything. So I think there has to be a bit of a balance. So it can actually be very, very lonely journey, but I think the belief in, is the right thing to be done. You have the backing of the management. Then at least even when things really get to rock bottom, you know you are doing the right thing. And another key thing, and I think this is a general challenge to, I guess, organizations, building even companies, how do you create a self-space for people to talk about their experiences or racism? It's one thing to evoke emotions, to evoke people and they talk about this issue. But you know it also has past experiences. What is that space they go to to sort of calm themselves down? Many times, of course, as organizations, we say we do have safeguarding spaces. The question is, do these safeguarding spaces also accommodate issues that have to do with racism? But I think for me, really, the question, what we really need to do is continue the journey of awareness. And as you've seen, a lot of the work that we have done is really creating that space where people can talk about it. Because when you talk about an issue, you come to terms with it. It's simply how advertising works. Even if a product wasn't very good, the moiety thrown into your face, the more you'll actually come to accept it and really, maybe I should actually try it out and see. And lastly, I think for us, what we are looking for to do is to work out a strategy. Because I think a strategy will look at the issue in its breadth, in its entirety, interrogate it and come up with different, or mildly, add ways of actually approaching the discussion. So what this helps is that everybody at whatever level they are, whether the country office, whether at an individual level, whether it's a systemic level, you can be able to do an action that can help address issues to do with colonialism or racism, for that matter. I'm Silvester. You mentioned strategy, and I know from a previous conversation that Light of the World is going through a strategy process at the moment. I think from previous discussions, you've said that decolonization and anti-racism is going to be part of that strategy. I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit more about that. And I'm also very interested to hear what kind of practical steps Light of the World is taking in operationalizing a decolonized and anti-racist approach. Do you have, for example, standard operating procedures or check or written rules or expectations about the way that project design is done, that risk assessments that are done, that monitoring evaluation systems are designed and organised, that reporting systems that funding. I mean, these are all touchy areas where colonial thinking can embed themselves and unwittingly you can perpetuate power systems, which actually disempower local communities and local people who are at the cutting edge, the coal face of making change happen. So very much like to hear a little bit about the strategy process and what practical things the organisation is doing to embed change. Yeah, definitely anti-racism and decolonization. I'm very, very integral part of our strategy development process. It's very much part of our transition process scenario development because knowing where the world is going, these are issues that we need to reflect about and be ready for the implications. I think already some of these things are manifesting, looking at the politics of the day and suddenly politics sucks us in as development and humanitarian practitioners. We've done, like I said initially we did a diagnostic that was much broader and there was an element of decolonization, but we've also done a mapping where we update actions that we have taken, actions that you probably need to take because every time you take an action it actually opens your eyes to ideally something else that you could probably do. We do not have yet a robust work plan and that is precisely why it's important one for us that this discussion is part of the strategy, but we also think at some point maybe and again that will very much depend on the leadership. Maybe we need to have a look at it as a different discussion, not that it will be disconnected from our priorities as an organization, as embedded as a strategy, but what that would help us is to look at it in a much more broader sense. Like I said so that we can be able to know what are those elements that each of us can really pick out. I think you also know that organization strategies are normally broader and they need to be sort of contextualized broad down to the level in our case from international level to country of its level, but also that needs to be reflected in programs, but also it should be reflected in your systems whether operational or programs and you cannot do that unless you have a proper assessment of the issue as an organization. So discussions are ongoing and we need to have this sort of agreement as an organization with direction we shall take, but at least for now we are certain it's already part of our global organization strategy. Thank you very much Silvester. We've obviously spoken a lot previously and you've mentioned the Skillshare program in passing during this conversation. So you are part of cohort two of the Development Hub Skillshare program on decolonising development. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your experience. Yeah, honestly coming into the training I didn't know what really to expect, but of course I was very much convinced by my supervisor then of course who we walked with and we ensured that the organization supports me to get into the course. I think for me a couple of things stand out. One was the vulnerability that was manifested during the course. The fact that people will get in there really, really open up. I recall a specific situation I think when one of the guests told us about an experience they went through and we had to go into our trades to speak about that. That really was deep. I wouldn't say there is anything more therapeutic than that. But I think also the experience of being in one place with people from very diverse backgrounds. Some from very, very big agencies beyond NGOs others from the private sector it just helps you realize that this is not just something that I face in my own space. But it really helped me in my case to get perspectives of other people. I mean the people that we have met and talked about and with whom conversations are still ongoing. But you also know and I think you saw that there were people who were still coming to town with a whole discussion probably even after the training they are still struggling. And that is okay. I think it very much spoke to the journey that one really goes through to come into terms with the situation either as a perpetrator of colonialism or one was being on the receiving end and then deciding what do I do about it. I go through it and then leave it at that or can I get out of this training different and do something about it. And I think it was very important that in the end we ended up at that point where we were as opposed to go back and do action planning. That was very important for me because my supervisor who I was working with was about to leave and it really had to take on the mantle. So I was definitely empowered going out of the training that you know I am not alone. There people I can also go back through as questions. It's a question. community that we can always go back to and raise questions and get support. And then of course, like I said, we want really going to developing a proper and robust action plan, but we are still looking at how do we do it? We first do like a broad and really robust assessment that will help us do a big plan where we can extract actions. That's not to say the things that we've been doing or planning to do, small in their own way, we will stop doing no. But we know it's a big topic, a topic that will be with us for a long time. Therefore, we need to look at the bigger picture. So it was really eye-opening. Of course, the guests with different approaches, I recall that specific one, where we were looking at how you interrogate colonialism tenences in the different, for example, departments of an organization, which is very important because in our case, we had done introductions. But then we need to move away from people knowing what it is to say, "Okay, can we have a reflection of our different dockets? How are we doing? And what can we do about the things that are clearly colonial or racist for that matter?" Thank you, Silvester. And I love the point that you made about creating connections with other people from across other development and humanitarian space. I know that you've kept in touch with some of the other people from cohort two. And in fact, Leslie, Madimu has actually been speaking with you and your colleagues as part of your strategy development process. I really like the fact that the programme links people across different spaces and breaks down the kind of silos in the development world. So that's really lovely. I'd love to hear more about your vision for the development and humanitarian space. What do you think it will look like and feel like when there's been real progress around ecolonisation? I think first and foremost, and this has a lot to do with our value as an organisation. I see a humanitarian development space that's more respectful. That is devoid of what I have come to call 'authorisation' of different people. I think you really understand what I'm saying. This situation where we have poor countries underdeveloped, mid-oincum and that sort of thing. Sometimes you ask yourself, "What are the criteria for determining this classification?" But I think for me the point is, yeah, fine, I may be poor in your eyes. But have you asked me in my case what poor means to me? So that bit of respect within the space, so the issue of the halves and the half-notes. And that very much speaks to my next point, which is really. I look for a time when there is equity. When our space development, humanitarian, name it is more equitable. When we can be able to negotiate, to have equal terms of negotiating partnerships, we sit on a table and say, "Okay, this is the money we need and we are conscious of this money for this, because this is where for us." Then it's up. It very much goes also on to other things like determination of rights. Yes, we know we have a chat on rights. But what makes you think what you consider right in your case is a right in my case. Actually what you consider right could be violation of mine. And I know there are lots of discussions about some of these global topics. Some of which actually violation of rights in our part of the world as a majority. So I look forward to that point also where we can be more inward looking when it comes to fundraising. There has been a deliberate creation of dependence. And I've seen, I mean, I've watched so many videos about this, but things that I've also experienced on finding, you know, of the West, in this case, the majority world. But when you come back in our communities, I'll tell you, there are lots of support systems that exist in our countries. For example, often, in fact, we don't have houses for all people in my country, where we take all people to be looked after. We have systems in which we can look after our own people. When you go to villages, people have mechanisms, how they support each other when people die. They have mechanisms of how they support each other when they want to have weddings. They have mechanisms where people support each other when they really need. And my question has always been, if this works at those small elements, at family level, clan level, community level, why can't it work at a level where you probably have a national organization? And it can actually do its own fundraising within a country. There are amounts of money that people actually raise to support people for weddings, are enormous. And if somebody actually found a way of tapping into these resources, to support, for example, national organizations, we would be way, way ahead. And then, of course, I would want to see a world after all this decolonization has really been questioned and challenged, where we as international organizations are taking on more supportive roles, supportive, like I said, systems strengthening, or probably simply technical roles, but national organizations, really being at the center of implementation. I call these working ourselves out of jobs. It may sound weird, but that is exactly what it is. You cannot claim to be giving power. And I think this also speaks to that whole discussion about shift of power on one hand. And then, creamy going to it with the others, just like when you talk about succession planning in leadership, you can say, look, I'm building the capacity, but then you're not able and willing to create space for other people to take on from you. And probably, lastly, and one of the most important ones is the dissentering of knowledge. I think for what to long, what has been considered knowledge is quite knowledge. And everything black has been medieval to put it mildly. I really look forward to that time when knowledge is what it is. It is knowledge regardless of where it really comes from, whether it is socio-economic, whether it is humanitarian. Yeah, thank you, Sylvester. And that comes back right to the first point that you made about respect and the need for mutual respect. So if black knowledge is being dismissed or other than you've got a hierarchy of knowledge in which Eurocentric knowledge is somewhere put at the top. And that respect definitely goes back to the personal transformation because without that, if you don't transform yourself as an individual, you can't respect another person and that person. And can't respect the other, it just becomes a full cycle of disrespect. And what you were talking about before in terms of the systems that you have for mobilizing resources for weddings and funerals and so on. I've seen that in action actually in Uganda and been incredibly impressed by these deeply embedded local institutions. And what you were talking about there is trying to identify a way to scale those institutions up. Instead, an approach where institutional forms which are based on European or North American approaches are kind of parachuted in and your toggle, this is a better way of doing things. So I think that's very interesting because something that I'm always very aware of when I come into countries for research doing data collection is the depth and intensity of local networks. People are very highly network. There isn't the level of social isolation that we often see in, for example, the UK. So you're identifying a step of things around respect, around equity, around stopping, othering. And actually about treating each other with the humanity that we deserve. And actually having a much more listening approach and a more curious approach so that we can learn from each other rather than just saying we've got something to teach you and you had better listen. So I like that. Now we're coming towards the end of our conversation and I was wondering if you would like to share with our listeners and viewers a practical first step that they can take to contribute to the process of decolonisation, anti-racism and shifting power. I'll start from where I ended personal transformation. I can't over emphasize that enough. Now there is no magic one for this to happen. One, of course, as an individual need to have introspection. You need to be willing and able to learn. There is loads that has been written about decolonisation, racism out there. And if you're not a person who reads, there is loads of videos about that. But also working on your ability to listen and accept people for who they are and probably what they say. I think in this situation we have three kinds of people. Those who perpetuate colonialism, those who on the receiving end and probably those who are somewhere in the middle, not sure whether they perpetuate racism and also probably not sure whether what they've done. experience is actually racism. I think whichever situation you're in, you need to interrogate yourself beyond where you see as your status because clearly each of us has had their own contribution. And if you think, well, I am not racist for example, but you see racism happening and you do nothing about it. You are not only different. If you have experienced racism and have not talked about it, the fact that you're going through it, you're not helping other people who would actually experience it because I have not spoken out. So it's really asked to have a reflection and decide, you know, to do something about it either to stop what we are doing and do something different and better or to just get involved in the whole movement in us, from all ways. Then of course, from the point of view of an organization also, like I said, an organization is people, it's not buildings and systems. There has to be that introspection and the best way you can do that is to do and audit. How are you doing in all those aspects that we talked about, HR, finance, management, programs when you are working with program participants, are you providing a certain group of an other because of race, gender, age or anything. And once you have this, suddenly, it will help you understand what the gaps are because with the gaps, then you can really work on actions. And I do think that this way of doing things can actually apply at an individual level and also at an organizational level. And then of course, based on that, you plan to develop an action plan. I have read this document, I think, by Vidair or Vidair. I don't know how it's pronounced. It's called organizational decolonization action plan. It gives you questions about what questions you ask within the different layers of an organization system. It also helps give you some of the actions that you could actually undertake. But I think the most important thing would be to develop an action plan that has very, very action-epoend points. That's why, like I said, it's very important to layer things. What is short term, what is long term, what is high level policy, what is mid-management level, what is, in our case country level, what is the personal level, what is at a programmatic level. Once you have this, it will make sense to people. And each one will know that they can make a contribution. But if it remains very high end, I mean, it will remain paper. Thank you so much, Silvester. And we'll find out the details about that guidance document that you mentioned just now and linked to it in the show notes. And I also think another good starting point for our listeners and viewers is Bond's anti-racist and decolonising framework. I can't quite remember the title just now, but we'll link to that in the show notes as well, because that links through a whole set of questions that people can ask from the board level right down to the policy program and comms level of an organization. So I'd like to thank you Silvester for joining us today. You've led us through some very interesting discussions and sensitive reflections on this issue. So thanks again. Thanks a lot, good for having me.