Debbie Gibson | Youngest artist to write, produce, and perform a Billboard #1 hit

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Just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start. hey what's your pin 2538 that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from uber one more way uber is putting safety at every turn learn more on the uber app before we get into the formal interview what is happening on this cassette i recently went into my archives of cassettes like as in my original demos shut the fuck and when i knew i was coming to see you i was like i have to throw a few in my bag no no the funny part is is they're all like mid being rewound and whatever so why don't you just pick one and we'll just put one on because i feel like you're like these were done on the tascam four track and the or the akai 12 track like one of the two my gosh and you might pick one that are they that was a hit no but so i'm going to pick one that's a hit and i'm going to pick one that's a hit and i'm going to pick one that's a hit and i'm going to pick one that's a hit and i'm going to pick one that's a hit and i'm going to pick one that's a hit and i'm going to pick one that's a hit and i'm going to pick like smiley faces on them they're like rough so are you fff gosh okay so i'll just i'm just going to pick one yeah just pick one and let's play and then i can like tell you about it or we can just yeah i mean there were so many phases i feel like the ones with smile i think the one with smiley faces has to go okay look at us getting back to our roots with oh my god i had the red panasonic too with the handle i literally don't even know the way to put this in anymore that's it is that correct that's it just hit play let's just see where we are it's like look again you know for kids at home who are making music however they're making music like this was like a lot of this stuff was even before i had a sequencer so i'm like hand playing a bass line for four minutes and it's a little sloppy at times okay let's see what wait but hold on i want to geek out for a second so you would like hand play the bass line of the whole song yes and then you would go in and play the whole piano part synth part or whatever whatever yeah and then you know i might if i messed up have to like punch in but you'd have to like you could miss you'd miss a beat i have so many questions i know from this one thing fuck it we're gonna just press play let's see which which one it is oh that one said not today that one wait is it already around hold on hold on that one feels like actually like more from an album it is getting stuck that ended up on an album hold on oh my god hold on oh this is amazing it's like awful but amazing but they're digitized so don't worry okay okay okay um but let's still that one really like might be done okay we're gonna not we're gonna not we need a pencil have you seen the social media posts where like they're performing surgery on a cassette with a pencil yes that's what happens okay we're gonna go back to this now but that was tear down these walls which ended up on an album and phil ramone produced it wow i know so there's that okay let's see what's let's see what this is you speak my language my language love oh it's like i loved you all my life you speak my language all the time but see like whenever i play these they come right back to me because i spent like whatever four or six hours doing that what's crazy to me is that your tone is still that bright and youthful i mean it's like a little on helium there but but similar right like i you know i get under the notes a little better now but it's still that's just it's my voice right that's just how you sound funny so that's language of love wow is there a different someone here there's tons so just yeah find another one just tell me about language of love what's the i mean it didn't make the cut it didn't make either of them it didn't make the cut it didn't make either of them either of the first two albums so like these demos these are all from first two albums they're all for the first two albums yeah wow yeah so that sounded like a four track demo to me also the fact that your ears can just pick that up is wild okay ready let's see oh that one not tomorrow so that's not that good because that's an actual like cassette from an actually remade that song okay that carol king song so let's find oh wait that looks like this one someone typed on this so this feels like this is probably my sister karen who she this was not like the label she was in publishing yeah i don't know what this what is okay that's going in a little weird so it's making me nervous but we're just i've never done this before and this is like my expose phase yep this could be an instrumental instrumental or a really long intro hold on well i mean i was playing morgan one of my favorite songs of yours nailing that harmony nailing the harmony it's like like latin love on the dance floor love on the dance floor wow coming to season 18 000 of dancing with the stars wow and i just want to acknowledge for a second that like i patterned a lot of my pop vocals on madonna that huh yes that little like inflection and i'm a huge madonna fan as well i had a realization the the older i got that a lot of what i loved about madonna's early vocals was that she was and this is a compliment i worship madonna madonna fans be nice to me because i'm gonna leave this in i have a feeling i know what you're gonna say a lot of those early vocals was her trying really fucking hard to get to the note yes which felt that's emotional right which felt exciting yes and in my young brain i was just like oh my god she's like but then listening back now as like a music expert i'm like oh that's a singer working really hard and i think that trying is cool i do too and i think everyone always appreciated that and so i think a lot of that like that kind of angst and that just raw ambition is emotional but it's also her really working yeah okay wait so to go to the geekiness of of this yeah you would how old are you making these demos 14 was like the big year 14 15 right so i was so obsessed so what happened was i went into a recording studio to do a voiceover it was daisy daisy i've got a bike for you we'll go riding on a bicycle for two and that's when i saw the board and the faders and that's when i also was like i don't like how this sounds and if i knew what i was going to do i would have been like oh those faders did i could make it sound better so um my mom was like i started lining up my sister's tape recorders like this um ironing board and i had gotten a casio sent for my confirmation because my friend iris got one for her confirmation and i was like yeah i don't want jewelry i want that right wow propel fitness water with gatorade electrolytes zero sugar and vitamins propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self what propels you propel with gatorade electrolytes with share my trip from uber you can send your live trip location to the ones who matter most like dan and hannah who always wait up to make sure their daughter gets back to her college dorm room or tiffany who's running late as usual and her friends are tracking her trip to make sure she's actually on her way look she's right there she's three minutes away or sam who never goes anywhere without her roommate knowing exactly where she is some journeys are meant to be shared share your ride in real time with share my trip on uber one more way uber is putting safety at every turn learn more on the uber app oh i would do like the stock samba b i won a songwriting contest uh for wor radio and i got i won a thousand dollars but the bigger prize for me was i got to hear my song on the radio yeah i became obsessed wow i was like this is the cool you know yeah like i've done theater i've done tv i've done all the there's nothing cooler than hearing your song on the radio in my opinion yeah or seeing an having an arena full of people singing your song right it's it's kind of the for me the be all end all yeah so i was lining the tape recorders up i also then got a lynn drum machine at the sam ash music show which they held in like the i don't know the hampton inn or something on long isle you know that was like in like a motel and you'd go room to room and it was all the gear so i was doing tv commercials so i had a little bit of money from that and what were you doing in these tv commercials acting okay gotcha oh yeah yeah yeah and so um I got this drum machine, lined up the tape recorders, and I was trying to multitrack record. So I would like play, I'd make a beat and then I'd play it off the Linn drum machine and then I'd play a bass line off the Casio into this. Then I'd play that back and play another part into the next tape recorder, right? Wow. So at the end it was like, while you speak my language, my language. And so my mom walked in one day and she's like, this is ridiculous. So we have to figure out how to get you an actual studio setup. Wow. And she didn't have, they didn't, my parents didn't have money. Yeah. So she drove three hours to Vineland, New Jersey to see my late uncle Joe, who owned like a tractor farm equipment company. And she got a $10,000 loan. Yep. She's like, you know how Deb likes to stand on the milk crates at the family reunion and sing? And cause that's what I would do. Like she's very serious about this. And she's writing and she's wants to record and blah, blah, blah. And so, um, we just kind of like got advice from people that we found and, and put this little four track studio together. Wow. Yeah. So this is mainly like 14, 15 years old. And you're running this four track studio yourself. Yeah. So first someone came in and kind of showed me things and helped me. And then ultimately they were like, and you're just going to have to figure things out for yourself. And it's a process. So it was like the day. The days of the patch Bay. Yep. Which by the way, I still like, like I miss faders and patch base. Cause you're like, Oh, this is going to this. It's tactile. You're touching it. Yeah. What I find so interesting and mind blowing about that for me is that as someone who's a boy, I just always related to feminine things. And so always thought that technical things were not for me. That was for my brothers. Right. So for you being. A woman, not like for me to be so removed from it is even crazier than you not being. I was like that. No girls don't do that. And I want to do what the girls do. Right. Even though society is telling me that's crazy. I don't give a shit. Right. And girls don't do technical things. How did you not, how did you see past that? I don't know. Like, I really don't know. Yeah. Like, and I wasn't like a tomboy in like sports or anything like that, but I also didn't care about girly, girly things either so much. Like I was like, yeah. I don't, I don't need to go to that sleepover party. Like that friend is not, not the greatest friend. I like, I'd rather be home demoing my song. I always just made those choices. But as far as the technical, I really think it came from my late mom because my late mom, who was my momager, Diane was also very much like she was wearing the pants in the family. Like my dad was softer and sweeter and was singing and I got my voice from him. But my. My mom was a badass. Right. And I think that it never occurred to me that girls shouldn't, shouldn't and couldn't. Yeah. And she had four of us and we all had that. Wow. Sensibility. Yeah. Because I'm still like recovering from my lack of technical knowledge and interest. I, to the point, I didn't own a computer until COVID so I could Zoom. Like to where I was just like, I can't do. Right, right, right, right, right. So I just think it's so beautiful that your mom was like, no, no, we're going to figure out how to get this gear for you and you're going to fucking. Run it. Yeah. And what I learned was, see, now I'm more though, like of your school of thought where I'm more to the creative technical, like I'd rather enlist. Like I am not going to catch up. Like Sean Thomas is, I call him my, my kid, my 24 year old, like secret weapon producer, engineer. I'm not going to catch up to him in this lifetime. Right. Because he grew up with the computers. It's not going to happen. Yeah. And so, you know, I now communicate musically to him. And I know what I want technically, but, you know, and I have that background, but I'm okay. I don't have anything to prove now. And I don't, I would rather admit that he's better at certain things than I am. Well, that's the beauty of collaboration is if you're going to try to be the best at everything, why collaborate? Right. Exactly. But I did know in the beginning, and my mom said this to me too. She's like, because you're young and because you're a girl, you're going to have to know 10 times more than everybody else. Yeah. Because they're going to try to strip you of your vision. And push you around. And that was the truth. Yeah. And so even like in, you know, I was classically trained. So I'd be like, oh, hey, that's a B flat major seventh, not a straight up seventh. Right. I'd almost have to do things like that. So that people knew. Prove your technical chops so that they would take you seriously. And musical chops. Yeah. Yeah. Because if I said, oh, that chord doesn't sound right. They'd be like, oh, the little girl doesn't know. Right. Right. They were just ready. But if you could call it out exactly. What was wrong about it. Yes. Yeah. Yep. That is. Yeah. Yeah. Ladies, gentlemen, and everyone in between. Welcome to Unfamous, a podcast about the art of collaboration, where we tell the unfamous, untold and unsung stories about how pop culture moments are made. We are breaking a rule on today's episode because I normally only ever have just one person on the podcast. Without a collaborator, because I have co-written with them, this guest I have not co-written with, but they are so important to me that I broke my own rule and I'm going to talk to someone without their collaborator because through the ether, me and Debbie Gibson have collaborated since I knew what music was. She just didn't know that I was collaborating with her. I love that. Debbie Gibson is here and I don't normally listen. I love her stats, but I have to because we have a record breaker on this podcast. And if you are too young to know who this is, I'm going to educate the fuck out of you. Debbie Gibson is the youngest artist ever at 17 years old to write, produce and perform a number one on the Billboard Hot 100 with Foolish Beat, earning a Guinness Book of World Records that still is standing to this day. No one that young has written, produced and performed. A number one song. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade Electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. What propels you? With Share My Trip from Uber, you can send your live trip location to the ones who matter most. Like Dan and Hannah, who always wait up to make sure their daughter gets back to her college dorm room. Or Tiffany, who's running late as usual and her friends are tracking her trip to make sure she's safe. Or Sam, who never goes anywhere without her roommate knowing exactly where she is. Some journeys are meant to be shared. Share your ride in real time with Share My Trip on Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app. That's great. Insane. That's insane. Insane. Debbie is the youngest ASCAP Songwriter of the Year. For songwriter geeks, you know that the ASCAP Awards and the BMI Awards are the most important thing. Because that's where songwriters really get the shine. Whether you sing your own songs or you don't sing your own songs, it's all about songwriters. So for Debbie to be the youngest ASCAP Songwriter of the Year award winner is shocking. Because that's, ASCAP and BMI Awards are based on statistics. That means you were the most played songwriter of the year for that year on the radio. So crazy. That's crazy. It's crazy. And I, you know, I didn't win a Grammy or an AMA or. Same. Same. Really? I had no Grammys, but I've won BMI Songwriter of the Year two years in a row. But I was 36 and 37. Hey, but that's, but like, that is the People Have Spoken Award. That's what I love about that. That's pure stats. It's pure stats. I always say, I win awards based on statistics, not on opinion. Same. Same. If there's a curated list, I'm not on it. Unless it's yours. Unless it's mine. Me and RuPaul got you. Million albums, over 16 million albums sold worldwide. And then this one's crazy too. The only sole female artists who have written, produced, and performed two number one songs on the Billboard Hot 100. To this day. That's crazy. To this day. Some of these, like I hear and I don't even know. Cause you know, there's so many like different things, but yeah, I'm in some kind of crazy clubs. You are in a lot of crazy clubs. Like one of the clubs is like Gloria Estefan and Dolly Parton and maybe a little bit of Alicia Keys. And like, there's, it's some crazy, you know, um, yeah. And it, I think because the, the, the, the world has overlooked your level of like technical prowess because you were so young that I think if that you were put into this teeny bopper category that even for gender aside, for someone to accomplish what you've accomplished to write and produce and perform. Form those records alone at any age, any gender is crazy. But because you were so young, you got put in like the mall category. It was like, it was easier for people to think of it as a fluke. Like, Oh, she just happened to. Right. So I know it's weird. I also always, I also say like, because my music wasn't singer songwriter ish. Right. Like I wasn't doing the thing. It was pop. It was pop. It was pop. Yeah. like you know some old man wrote it for you ding ding I was just about that right like an older male craftsman yep crafted it for me right yeah and that I was that I had this persona that somebody styled that I but that was all me yeah but it was it kind of felt like it could have been from the outside right right right because if you think about someone writing their own songs it's normally this stripped down under produced but you were producing the fuck out of your own records right and then there was a record you know I did my album think with your heart which was my like singer song that's where the will you still love me tomorrow was and that was me producing that more organic sounding album and Tony Visconti arranged the strings and it was all that whole thing yeah Tony Visconti um produced one of my my band's albums oh my god I love him oh so funny Tony Visconti story so we used to live like 10 blocks apart on the Upper East Side and we decided because he was like friends with my mom because my mom was managing me and my sister was doing my publishing and we all decided that we were gonna take conversational Italian in my apartment on the Upper East Side so I literally remember you know just just a girl's night of conversation and the legend that is Tony Visconti and I just remember us with this woman and the chalkboard and we were going Gorgonzola Gorgonzola it's all I remember from conversation with Tony so by the way I'm tangent woman I'm random please it's all very entertaining strange I'm just gonna keep I'm gonna I want all of the tangent insane stories please do not censor yourself but I'm also gonna do my best to bring it back to collaboration every time yes we are hoping to teach people collaboration yes now this was not the first time I've ever done a collaboration with Tony Visconti and I'm not a planned question because I did not I knew that your mom was a momager I knew that did not know that your sister was a publisher in terms of collaborating right because when we say collaboration we always think about with people like us we think about co-writers or a producer writer artist relationship but collaborating with your manager and your publisher that's a whole version of collaboration as well yes what collaborating with managers and publishers can be tricky no matter what and yes what collaborating with managers and publishers can be tricky no matter what and Brian Koppelman did my publishing for a while with Charles cool yeah yeah yeah yeah when you're working with your family yes were there what were some of your the the positives of that and then what were some of the negatives of that if you don't mind because I think that people could learn a lot from that hello my little unfamous friends so the thing about the algorithm Little Miss algorithm is that she doesn't want to let people know that she's not a publisher know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it so if you follow this podcast what if the old school youtubers say like subscribe and follow if you do that for me then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people so please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things bye I mean listen like I my sister My sister Karen actually also did A&R. She was A&R at Atlantic. She signed bands. She was working with Toby Emmerich at the time, who's now a big movie producer. But, like, she did the Wonder Years soundtrack. So, like, I got, like, first dibs on something like that where I got to contribute. Like, I wrote the only original song on the Wonder Years soundtrack. Amazing. And, you know, obviously the whole label had to approve of it, but I kind of had that inside scoop from my sister, which was amazing. And she could kind of, you know, she was, like, going out and seeing bands and, like, knew what was going on and knew it was relevant. Yeah. So she was a great sounding board. Yeah. She listened to all these demos. She had them all re-sung so she could pitch them for things or whatever. Yeah. And, you know. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins, Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Hey, what's your pin? Mm-hmm, 2538. That way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger. Make sure your ride is your ride. With pin verification from Uber, one more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. The thing was like, so my sister Karen, and then there was my mom. So my mom and I were like the big visionary magical thinkers. Yeah. Right? And my sister Karen had that, but was also a little more practical. So there definitely came a time when I was literally like, I'm hot. I'm hawking the duplex on the upper West side to make this next album because I'm not on Atlantic anymore. I left Atlantic, just creative stuff. Yep. And you couldn't make an indie album like you can now. It was literally like a million and a half dollars to even put your foot, you know, to put your hat in the ring. Yep. Right? So she was like, don't sell the duplex. Like, you don't want to be in this musical landscape right now and do that. And I was like. I'm not at a place in my life where, where my lifestyle, like sitting home in this duplex is going to do anything from, for me. Yeah. I'd much rather be out there, even if I blow through all the money, but I get the music out to the people like that was, I was always an artist through and through that way. And my mom always supported slash enabled. Yeah. Right. And so there were those tensions, you know, there were those, those tensions within our family for sure about those kinds of. Choices. And cause I think that, I mean, obviously with it being your family, it raises the stakes, but those conversations are across any team working together. Yes. How, how would you get through those tensions? How do you get through those moments in a creative slash business relationship where you're like, Hey, everybody, let's maybe do this. I mean, ultimately all the decisions were mine to make. Right. You know, because it was my money and my name. And your music. My music. And so, you know. So, but like probably I'm envisioning the geography of our lives. Like I was home in my apartment, like starting to make this music and then like, you know, to release it, like I literally moved and started renting something, but like my sister and my mom were working in our office together. So like, you know, and my aunt was in the mix. No, listen, like everybody worked together at some point in my family. Wow. Like styling. And, you know, my grandmother was doing the accounting when she was alive. Shut up. Oh yeah. It was like everybody, you know, and my aunt and my mom didn't speak for a time and my sister. So I was a little more removed from it because I was like, la la la, I'm going to make my music and I'm the artist. And my mom was always on my side. Right. You know, we just always felt like, you know, who, who better to gamble on you than you? Right. And so, and I, I, I know. I've never regret any of those decisions. Yeah. That's what I was going to ask. Like, do you, with working with family can be so tricky, but you don't regret any of it? No. And listen, I write about, I relived this a lot recently cause I put my book out and. Which I'm so excited to read. It's, it's quite a, it's, you know, people don't realize the real life challenges I've gone through more, more in the last like 10 to 15 years. Okay. So, you know, for people who, um. Are going through challenges on a very human level, non-showbiz related, they'll read this and go, holy crap, because I get to sit here and tell people like, literally I've had everything stripped away and I've rebuilt. Wow. And so I love being able to speak passionately to people about that who are go, who are in survival mode. Yeah. Cause I've been there. Yeah. I've actually been there and I've been there when I also had to protect my name and my image and my, like, that's a tricky thing. Yeah. You know, when you're like, I don't want people to see me. And in this deteriorated health state or financial state or this or that, and you have to kind of keep a perception up or disappear, but then how do you keep your, your life going and pay your bills and you're right. So it was crazy. What do you think it is in you that can get you through those really hard moments? Cause I do think, I hear you when you're saying like, everyone can relate to it because even though if people don't understand what the, the stakes of keeping your. Yeah. Persona intact, they can understand that the stakes are high. Yeah. So I think that no matter what people can learn from anyone who's gotten through really hard shit, what do you think, what is it that keeps you pushing? And I want to bring it back around to the question about my mom, cause that's what got me there. But the thing that, you know, first of all, I will also say I don't have children. So that adds a whole layer. Like I have people in my life who are going through really tough times and have children on top of that. And I think that's a really good thing. I think that's a really good thing. So I'm always like, that's a whole other level of everything. I don't know. I just had this, I don't know. I don't know, I just had this very deep desire to not only survive, but to thrive again. And I just kept saying to myself, whether it was, I was in debilitating pain or I was like, I don't know, I mean, dealing with Lyme disease and the voice, like if you saw Shania's documentary, like I went through like that kind of crazy vocal dysphonia and was like singing on television occasionally where like, I didn't really know what was happening. And I was kind of like, wow, I sound awful. This feels really bad. And this is really hard, but here's what I learned through that. It makes me very emotional. People don't come to see an artist because they can hit a high note. Right. I think, I really believe we're all in it for the humanity and the connection. Yep. And I think once you've done it at a certain level and you've proven, like even now, if I'm having a weird vocal day, like I don't ever lip sync. Like I'm going to be like, if you all want to hear me hit that note better, there's a YouTube video of it from last week, right? But this week is this week and life is in process. You want a live experience. So I'm bringing you whatever's going on in my life. Maybe it's stressful, you know? And I think people really like my fan base and I have connected so deeply through because of the challenges. Yeah. My mom and my relationship in a way was a marriage. Yeah. And then the parting of ways. And then the parting of ways was my divorce. And so divorcing your mom. Fuck. Well put. Yes. And the thing about being in any relationship where you know when, you know, the moment where it should end, but you're going to keep, you're going to keep trying, you're going to keep trying, even though you know, it's not going to really, but like with my mom, the thing is, and I've had these professional relationships that were not my mom, where you're like, is this person aging out? Of the business too? Or like, can I, can I encourage them to change their mindset and live in a modern landscape? Because that's one thing I'm very proud of in my journey. Like I do not, I think that it's great to look back on nostalgic things and times with a fondness and a connection to it. But I think the quickest way to age yourself out of the world is to think everything that was done, everything great was done yesterday. Yep. And it cannot be topped, right? Yeah. So like, it's a mindset in show business. Like you, you have got to keep evolving. Yeah. You've got to embrace it. Otherwise you're left behind. And so like, would I have loved in my fantasy for my mom? Cause you know, I like the last six or seven years with the mixtape tour and a lot of things that have happened, there's been a resurgence for me and my music and touring. Would I have loved for my mom to have been alive and the one to be like, we did it together, right? Of course. But at a certain point I knew it wasn't going to happen. I also knew it was destroying our mother daughter relationship. So I, it was a very big full circle journey to get to the place where before she left the planet, thankfully she was able to say, I wish I could have been a part of this, but I'm so proud of you and the work you're doing. And Heather, my manager is someone my mom discovered and mentored and she worked for us for nine years. And then left. And then I brought Heather back in. So I'm lucky because that's like having two great marriages in a lifetime, having a manager. Cause people are always like, where do you find a Heather? And I'm like, you got to find your own Heather. Yeah. She has to be mentored by your mother. Yeah. Have your mother mentor your manager. Oh my God. But you know, she was, my mom kind of recognized herself in her. It's all very like, you know, woo woo full circle. Like, like the universe always had this, this plan. Tell me to fuck off if I'm pushing too hard, but I really, the point of making the podcast, which was Morgan's idea, this, the format of this collaboration is to hopefully we're actually helping people learn how to collaborate better, whether it's musically business-wise in the moment when you're like, okay. Cause parting ways with any manager is fucking hard. If it's your mom, how do you actually get to the point? And again, if it's too personal, you can tell me to fuck off, but like, how did you, how do you actually get to that point? It was like a very slow ripping off of the bandaid. And then it was like a, okay, we can continue trying this, but I need you to do that. And it's where the child becomes the parent too, where the, you know, because like creatively I always was a leader, but I still deferred to my mom in business, you know, and I still like remained, remained childlike so long as she was my manager. Right. Right. Like I didn't fully, um, emancipate until like my thirties. Right. You know, so. Do you think that the slowly ripping the bandaid off was the right way to do it? Or do you think that you would have been better if you just said, Hey, like earlier, Hey mom, I'm done. Oh, that's so hard to say. I mean, maybe I needed the process of it too. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, again, cause I am that person who's gonna, I always give grace and second chances and third chances and fourth chances. So like I want, I was like, come on. You can do it. You can step into this. Yeah. Yeah. What propels you? With share my trip from Uber, you can send your live trip location to the ones who matter most like Dan and Hannah, who all always wait up to make sure their daughter gets back to her college dorm room or Tiffany who's running late as usual. And her friends are tracking her trip to make sure she's actually on her way. She's right there. She's three minutes away or Sam who never goes anywhere without her roommate knowing exactly where she is. led by my mom were like, well, they want this. percentage and you know, you're only getting 40%. Like, could you imagine owning 40% of the voice right now? Like it could have been that. Life-changing. Life-changing, right? There is no way on earth at this point that I would allow anybody to talk me out of anything that I wanted to do. Yeah. And by the way, my manager would advise, but she ultimately always says, but I defer to you because this is your, you know, if she absolutely cannot work with like, I can't work with this person, Deb. They're not like, they're abusive to me or they're this or they're that, right? Obviously. But short of that, like she and I never have conflicts because it's, we're very respectful of each other's opinions. There are times where I go, I respectfully disagree. I do want to do this and she'll go, okay, great. Yeah. Let's go. Yeah. So we have a great rapport that I've just learned to do that at 45. I got a new manager like two years ago, new business manager very recently. And I'm, and starting these new relationships, I kind of had to start new relationships so that I could enter them advocating for myself. Nice. Because I've, I've learned that once patterns start with people, it's really hard to change. So hard to retrain you. It's impossible. Oh no. I had somebody in my personal life recently say to me, why can't you be how you used to be and just like make a plan and keep the plan? And I go, cause I'm not that person. And now I'm extraordinarily selfish about my plans and my time. Yeah. And I'm super in the moment because it's how I've gotten my life back on track and I'm very protective of it. Yeah. So I agree because you've trained people to treat you a little differently. I think what I love that you just touched on is that the way that we handle our friendships is probably how we're going to handle our business relationships too. And our creative collaborations. It's like, there's been friends in my life of, yeah, trying to like set boundaries and retrain. Big word for me too. How like, okay, you can't be that crazy to me anymore. Yeah. No. You realize that the friendship actually a lot of times just unfortunately has to end. And so, you know, I've had business collaborators in my life who really, really changed my life, who really, I would not be sitting in this fucking house without them. However, the second I tried to be like, Hey, you can't work me to the bone like that anymore. And I need, I want to have a little bit more say in the sessions I'm doing because I didn't do that for seven years. And all of a sudden I was like, Hey, that I just can't do that one anymore. It was like, I had just, you know, shot their dog, which as a vegan, I would never do. But it was, it's really hard to change dynamics in friendship and in business. When you said earlier that creatively you were always on it. I need to know how. And the answer might be, that's just how you were. Because if you are, I had my first record deal at 27, right? It was, it was late for the entertainment business. And I would still be like, when do you, when do you think I should, okay, if you think I should do that, I'm going to try to do that. And made a lot of mistakes that way. How do you, as a 14, 15, 16, 17 year old young woman, you're still technically a minor. How the fuck do you go? I'm writing, producing and performing this. Thank you. How did that happen? Well, what's interesting, I'll answer that. And then I'll, and then I'll tell you what happened right after that, which is why I left Atlantic. So like, I think first, of all, when you're super young, your vision is so pure and clear. That's a great point. And you're not paying a mortgage. And you're not like, it's a glorified hobby. So that's for starters, right? Like, why wouldn't I just say what I wanted or what I, right. And I, I think because I was so young too, like, you know, I hosted the American Music Awards in like, like kind of low, but like I wasn't wearing high heels and I wasn't right. I was wearing like a dress I bought in Huntington, Long Island. Like I remember the dress. I just bought almost the same one on eBay. Cause I saw it. I was like, oh my God, I have to have this again. And my hat and little bit, right. Because I was like, I have to be comfortable. Like I can't be acting like somebody else. Yeah. And so I don't know. I, you know, I was also very lucky because so Fred Czar was, he produced only in my dreams. So I like, I produced Foolish Beat, which was that, which went number one. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And what was so interesting is when I watched the George Michael or might've been the Wham documentary, Walter A, whose name I can never print. Walter, I want to say, right. So Atlantic had wanted Walter to produce stuff for me. And I was like, no, I know how I want it to sound. He produced Careless Whisperer, originally. And then George was like, no, this doesn't sound how I want it to sound. It was a similar, because the thing is like, if somebody's job is to give you input, they might overcomplicate things. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We need to bring in this person and bring in that person. Like to me, I'm always like, it's a ballad. It produces itself. That's what I think. Just play the fucking song. That's what I think the job of the producer of a ballad is. It's like, get out of the way of the song. Yep. Right. Yeah. I would come up with the, like the simplest, most classic way of arranging it. Yeah. And, and this, and sonically what it would sound like. And that was really it. So, so what I was going to say though, is Fred Czar was, I had a lot of empowering people around me, people that did not feel like they had to do the Svengali thing with me. Yeah. So Fred was one of the non-creepy older males in the music industry. He was the one. There's still too many. So for Fred to be not creepy back then is really impressive. It was really amazing. You know, he was like a cool uncle who was like, oh my God, this is awesome. A girl wants to do this and knows how to communicate this. And so he was there to help me facilitate my vision and empower me to do it on my own. Yep. So what's, tell me the difference of, especially in this young, pure age, tell me the difference of Foolish Beat. Produce Alone versus Only in Your Dreams with Fred. What, how are you as the artist collaborating differently when you're producing yourself versus when someone else is producing you? Because I think there's a lot to learn from this. Yeah. That's such a great question. So like Only in My Dreams, if you heard the original demo, which is probably on one of those. Oh, don't you tease me. The one with the tape. That's on that one. The original demo of Only in My Dreams is right here. Might be on one of these. But it, it still is like, if you heard it, you're like, oh, Fred took that and refined it and enhanced it. Oh, I'm going to, I need to hear that. But it has the elements of what it became. But really the main difference is he's directing, he's running the show, he's running the sessions. Cause even though a lot was programmed, Iris Eagle, great guitarist, he played on everything. Jeff Smith on sax and Bashiri Johnson on percussion, who, you know, he's a great guitarist. He's a great guitarist. He's a great taught me triplets that I could still do to this day on a shaker. I got to play with him at the songwriters hall of fame last year, which was incredible. I was like, I got to do a build me up buttercup for Tony McCauley and help induct him. But Bashiri, like to see him like, you know, 38 years after he played that percussion on only in my dreams, but really it was Fred running the show and I still gave my input, but I still deferred to Fred. I mean, it's just like producing to me as like being the director of a movie, it's pulling the elements together and the people and the pieces. So even just the starting place, like, like even for me, for lost in your eyes, like the starting place of that, you know, like I'm starting with that piano part. Right. It's a ballad. But like I produced half the electric youth album, right. But like electric youth. Electric youth, Fred produced, and I couldn't have done it as well. How do you feel as the artist, right? Cause it's, it's rare, even to this day, it's very, a lot of artists are writing for themselves or co-writing for themselves, but it's very rare that someone's producing for themselves. So how do you let go of the reins to let, to let someone else be the director and you're just the actor for that moment? Well, like, so Sean and I, it's like Sean produced or co-produced all of the body remembrance. Album that we did. And so great fucking title. Thank you. Body remembers is a very good title. Thank you. I don't, I barely remember how that came to me, but, um, I remember the song coming to me, but like he and I have, you know, psychic friends network. Like we just like I'll call and I'll like, you know, play something into the, like literally just the phones here and I'm just playing it into the, and I'll just say like a reference, maybe a certain sound from a certain song and I'll sing a certain part. Hey, I want a little, I want a little, I want a little, I want a little riff here, a little riff here, a little string thing here, whatever the things are. And he'll bop it back to me. And I'm like, Like that's what was in my head, but better. Yeah. Right. And so I have zero problem being like produced by Sean Thomas. Or if I, if I was more immersed in, in, you know, in the details of it, then it was produced by both of us. And I've just gotten to a place too, where I'm like, I don't want to say nobody reads the credits, but like, I'm at the point where I'm like, who cares? The song's great. Yeah. We'll call it, you want all the credit? Great. You want all the money? Great. You want all the, like, it doesn't really matter to me. When you're younger though, right? When you're young, like, I love what you said about the, the purity of being so young. Like, this is my vision. Duh. It's this glorified hobby. I think that's so real. And why, when I work, co-write with younger people, I'm like, no, no, you, you need to lead the way here. I will structure this and help you. But like your beautifully delusional youth is what's going to actually make the sparks here. So when you're young and you're producing, you're producing two songs that went number one. How do you also be smart enough to go, no, no, I need Fred on this one, on this one and this one. Or it might be so long ago. You're like, Justin, shut up. I don't remember. But I am so actually curious. I do remember. And I'm going to say something like, you're going to be like, oh, wow. So Fred did the intro to Papa Don't Preach. He did that keyboard. Now, now he'd be called a writer on the song. Of course. Right. Because that's such a melodic part. Right. And like, so he did that with me with, like Who Loves You Baby. He did the da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, right. Which opened my whole electric youth concert. Again, if you helped create an intro back then, that was part of production. That wasn't part of writing. Yep. So like there were ways in which he'd enhance my music in that way. And you were smart enough to hear it and go, this is better. I was like smart enough to know that something was missing that he was going to add. Yeah. Whether it was a part, which was, or a tightening of what I had created in the demo. Like, I knew that my demo was too loose and I didn't know how to get it to the elevated point that it would sound like it belonged on the radio. That's the, that's the best way I could put it. What that actually makes perfect sense to me. What I'm, I'm blown away by is that being that young, that you were able to hear a difference. And that I think is why you were as successful. I was definitely able to be like here, make this better. Yeah. Bring out the best in me in this vocal, like whatever the thing, whatever the things were. And we'd sit and comp vocal and by the way, vocal comping was like the most fun thing. Like we would, I would, I would do a round of vocals and we'd comp and I'd take it home. And then I'd hear what I wanted to do. We'd usually do like three rounds and we'd sit there and you know, comping at the time was like punching in and bopping over words and syllables and there was no tuning. It's so funny. You brought up Madonna and tuning me for every time I hear borderline. I think how much, how much comping did they do because it's like pitch perfect. That one. Yeah. Yeah. I just had that flash of that. What blew my mind about listening to re listening to some of your records this morning. Cause, um, Oh my God, how am I blanking on the title? Um, on the first album, the angel song, um, fallen angel, an angel. The reason why I needed to play it from Morgan this morning is because fallen angels. The first time I tried to write a song and why I said that we were co-writing, even though you don't know, we were co-writing. Oh my God. Now we need to actually co-write. We have to. We have to fall an angel. I was listening to on some like family road trip from Chicago to Michigan. Cause my mom's from Michigan. My dad's from Chicago. So we're driving to see her family and I'm like in the backseat listening to, and my, my, my parents were, were fans of yours. It was one of the few things I listened to that they actually liked. But after like three hours of Debbie Gibson, they were like, okay, you listen on your Walkman. We're going to dad needs to listen to the Beatles or some shit. Right. So I'm listening to fall an angel and I'm literally going. Okay. I think I can write a song. And I basically wrote just my bad version of fallen angel, which was like, probably like angel falls down or something. Yeah. So I'm just like fully. And I, I vividly remember. And I tried, I sang my parents a song, a song saying, Hey, I wrote a song and I know bullshit. Can I remember the looks on there? And I must be like seven, eight years old at the oldest. Right. Cause that came out in 87. Yeah. Right. And so I'm an 80 baby, so I can, it's really easy for me to know what age I was. So seven or eight. And I'm singing this version of the song. They already knew cause I played your music so much and they were just like being really nice and like acting, like I wrote something, but really I just changed like seven syllables to your song. So we have, you, you literally are the reason I started writing songs, which is. Can I wait, can I just take that in for a minute? Well, and while you take it in, I will say also to give more context, about his parents is that they're incredibly competitive people. Both of them incredibly competitive. Like the first time I met his mom or one of the earliest times I remember her aggressively swimming laps in a bean shaped pool. And then his dad is like this incredible tennis, like pro, like this tennis coach. Yeah. And, um, so like, I am imagining his parents as a seven, eight year old, you're performing the song to them. They're like, you, you stole it. Great start. Great start. But like, we can do better. I make this original. Oh my God. The type A was alive and well. Normally people would be like, great job, baby. Like whatever. They're like, no, no, no, you can do better. You can do better. You can do better than this. It's interesting. My mom was both my mom. Cause my dad thought everything was great, but my mom similarly would be like, that's great, honey. Keep going. Right. Like, yeah, like great. Great. That you're just writing a song. I always said this cause I did like songwriting workshops for kids and stuff. And I'm like, if your kid's even trying to write a song at eight or 12 or like, that's amazing. Let's just say that that's amazing and keep going. Yeah. So then how does your mom decide that it's good enough for her to try to find record industry? Like gets you, how old were you when you signed the deal? Well, we did start. So I come from America, which was the song that I wrote. And I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And I was like, it was almost like a horn pad but like singing right but I just remember going oh this is a radio song and then it ended up being the first single but three years later oh right yeah how do you think do you think it was your classical training that made it so that your ears could understand the difference between a 50s broadway song versus an 80s radio hit do you think your classical training gave you those skills or is it just like natural I think to being a pop music fan I was like oh what's the difference here what's the difference here what's a sing-along like I was singing in this like cabaret uh upper on the upper east side in New York called something different yet the young stars showcase right so I was like singing my original songs at that time people were singing broadway so I think that's why I was still doing this hybrid thing of like oh the kids in this place it was like a dessert nightclub for kids we're gonna call it right so like rich upper east parents would throw birthday parties for their like I want like can we start what is that you're gonna say can we start one I want to start a new one it was a really big thing and so but like broadway annies like kids showbiz kids were were singing there and so I'd be singing my songs and my songs always felt like a little more pop than all the broadway things people were singing but it still fit in yeah and then it was like oh I need to write things that I can't sing there right like like I've always been this person that straddled these worlds right like I did a hallmark movie where I played a version of myself so I played like the hallmark version of a pop star but like my real like who I am like my spirit's rock and roll yeah I don't want to be in those boxes yeah and so that was like the only in my dreams was the beginning of that but what's so interesting to me is that you had the ears to find that so young because I was a huge musical theater fan surprise to no one and I kept getting told you were too I was too pop when I would sing oh when I would sing theater for broadway to broadway for I kept getting told you're singing this so pop you're singing this so pop which is probably because I grew up on you and madonna and blah blah blah and I wouldn't hear it and there was no rent yet so like if there was rent right you would have gotten rent rent happened when I was like a senior in high school you were ahead of your time so it was but but also it was just like a gift because then it was just like they never wanted me for musical theater and so I just started writing my own songs but I had the inkling of writing when I was super young listening to you but I didn't really sit down and start writing consistently until I was like 15 16 because musical theater kept saying you're too pop but I never I couldn't I literally could not hear the difference and so what I find so interesting about you is that your ears were there that young and my guess is it's that I gave you a I feel like it didn't I feel like it came from like madonna I mean in terms of like your ears being smart enough to to know to know the difference not that not that the classical piano inspired you I'm just trying to figure out I feel like it's more of like honestly like the radio like the fan in me I feel like it was the pop music fan in me that that knew the difference yeah right yeah I just didn't hear it like I was in the thick of being like I was an unapologetic energetically like pop you know what I mean like yeah so because people were always in when I was in high school it was like I remember the day that some kids in school brought their wham albums in and they were like you can have these we don't like wham anymore right like we're listening to w-l-i-r-l-i-i-r what is it l-i-r-l-i-r that was like the alternative ah that was the cure and that was the push mode and that was right and I was like so protective of pop music and I was like wow when it wasn't always cool yeah to like it you know I was always like I always knew the greatness of it yeah right well because the pop is just a simple it's all about the simplicity to make it popular the beauty of the simplicity and I talk about this in my book too but like the day I came home from school and I turned on mtv and wake me up before you go go came on yeah and I was like how do I write a hook like this like what like the was the catchiest thing and the most joyful thing to me was that do you think that was a big moment where you're like oh fuck I'm gonna be a pop star or was it the Bruce or the Billy Joel moment you talked about before I mean there's like the Billy Joel you know seeing all songs written by Billy Joel I love see I always loved the feeling I'll tell you this so like I I weirdly like did and didn't visualize being a pop star I really was like I want people to hear this song I want people to hear the music yeah right because I didn't think I was cool enough to be the star in a way I felt like a star in that I was doing theater and I loved to I was outgoing yeah but I didn't feel cool in a pop star kind of way so like I was always about and you'll relate to this as a songwriter I'm sure I always felt like when I was about to play someone a new a song that I wrote that like oh my god I have this secret that nobody else knows and I'm about to share it with everybody yeah they're about to hear a song that never was in the world and it was born through me or yeah whatever however you view it channeling something and I believe like the universe is like here write this if you don't write it they're dropping the idea is going to someone else because the universe needs this out there right that's how I view it yeah um I don't have a big ego about the writing part weirdly but like I just always got joy out of feeling people in a room responding to a song yeah so that was my yeah inspiration for wanting what I do I feel that too because I always thought when I went from being in my band to writing songs for other people I expected myself to be jealous that I wasn't singing a hit that I wrote and I was not jealous at all I was just like oh but people are hearing my song that's yes the crazy to me that's it's that's amazing how do you feel being this you were this person that you were this young woman in the industry that accomplished all this stuff and you really so many people think they understand what the industry is but you have seen it now in many different eras decades everything how do you think things have changed for women in the industry for better or worse because obviously you had a very your own experience in it do you can you see ways that we've progressed in ways that we haven't or I mean yeah for sure like I mean it's what you were just saying about like hearing all that trying in Madonna's voice right like she really had to work I'm doing this visually in my head like the timeline like an Olivia Rodrigo or a Sabrina Carpenter or or you know a her or a they people just listened to them from a different vantage point and starting place right like all the years of the doors Madonna had a breakdown were like it had to be exhausting I had to do a bit of that myself right right but the fact that um there was just already like now there just already is a place for female creative visionaries that landscape already exists yeah not that people don't have to work hard of course their own path yeah but they're starting at a different place they're starting at a different place and they're starting at a different place and they're starting also from a place where you know a million people can hear your song in one day like I was playing 200 person clubs at a time and people were drunk and I was like 16 I'm like I haven't even been around this many drunk people at a high school party like now I'm trying to get their attention with this song and like so all I love that I had that training ground yeah I love it because you know because even almost 40 years in sometimes I'm on a stage that big at some private event or I'm at I have to know how to work a room in a certain way and I know how that part of it's a craft and that part of it I had great training yeah right yeah and so for people that are in this starting place of like their home doing covers on social media and then suddenly they're like it's pretty a pretty quick trajectory to like they're they're on iHeart you know they're doing the iHeart music whatever right music awards they're doing the iHeart music or whatever they're doing the iHeart music I think that must be petrifying right so I don't envy them yeah but I but I am really happy that it's just not as big of a deal it's like oh she wrote this she produced this he wrote this for her she like you know it's just all already it's just all possible and all happening and all accepted now yeah and all celebrated now right right so um I love that yeah yeah I feel like I'm like I'm like I'm like right now it would have been such a the whole internet would have known in a second if you if you broke right now right and right if they would have known in a second that you wrote and produced these hits yourself in one second they would have known that and there would have been a different level of celebration for what you did right I was just lucky as a fan that I randomly heard some random fucking DJ in the suburbs of Chicago mentioned that you wrote and produced it. But I think, I remember as a kid having to fight my brothers and tell them that you were a real musician because they just assumed that you were like every other pop tart on the radio where now that story would be told in one tiktok video that could go viral right yeah i have a question and i should know this but did you solo write all your stuff when you were the artist when it was your yes i stupidly no no no i just no but it it i i i am not afraid to say it now i i am not as as good as you are so the second i started co-writing my whole life changed because i am i know now i know what i'm good at right which i can write really good melodies if it's very much in the alternative space or this sort of dramatic rock alternative space whatever you want to call it and i can write lyrics pretty much in any genre right but i assumed i could write melodies in any genre and i once i started co-writing i was at a place with my ego i was 33 i was i was old as far as the music business is concerned not old at all but as far as our shitty business is concerned i was i was smart enough to go oh fuck that melody that this 19 year old girl just wrote meaning julia michaels yeah that is way fucking better than anything i was going to suggest for this genre right for what we're trying to accomplish today i didn't have i didn't that's why i keep trying to quiz you about your ears because i'm trying to help listeners learn why you could hear the difference and things like that so young right and i want to know that for you so then like where did you jump in and tell julia i love issues by the way like where did you where did you jump in and say this is what i have to contribute and i know better than you do for this so our first session or this hook or this yeah whatever it was you i could really contribute to this and i know better than you do for this so our first session or this yeah whatever it was you i could really contribute to this and i know better than you do for this so our first session or this yeah whatever it was you i could really contribute with her like and with everybody but you know with her specifically the first time we wrote was a song called sick of this which rita aura and calvin harris cut but then they broke up so it never came out okay but that was the first song we ever wrote together and it was my title and she took my song title sick of this and just sang the greatest melody i'd ever heard until the next day i wrote with her you know and then she was saying an even better one so it was like me contributing to this and then i wrote with her and then she was saying an even better one so it was like me contributing weirder lyrics weirder thoughts and but then also really because i'm such a song geek deeply understanding structure deeply understanding melodic math so even though they were for the most part in her and i's collaboration specifically because that's what we're talking about yep most of those melodies are her i'm editing them i'm structuring them i'm moving this feeling to here i'm moving the actually i think our pre-chorus is our verse and our this so it was is lyric a full lyric co-writing and then i wrote with her and then and then a structure math you know I was 33 she was 19 I had a degree in songwriting she was just a natural by the way you just said something so every time I collaborate not every time but often when I collaborate someone whatever what they think is a hook I'm like that's the pre-chorus we can top that yeah like because I'm a hook girl yeah so I'm just like the hook to me has to be deeply satisfying yeah yeah do you feel like in your journey either when you were young or right now as a woman do you feel like you have to change the way you say things to be heard yes yeah I mean I just think that if you're evolving as a person you're evolving as a songwriter and how you're gonna say like I'm not gonna write lost in your eyes again like that was right like that was it's a it's beautiful the journey it's had because I always say you can take a very simple love song you wrote at 17 and now color it in with all like I can color it in with all my life experience when you perform I perform it yeah and people have taken it on the journey and a love song always stands the test of time and all that but I still was writing that from limited experience so it wasn't going to be as um it's a word I'm looking for nuanced or yeah like like it was just it it it had it's beautiful in its simplicity yeah right but there's going to be more colors and things to the way I I do lyrics at this point yeah and I like getting more specific in there so I love painting pictures with lyrics more yeah um you know there's something in my song freedom on the body remembers album about you know my being face down on the cold bathroom floor which is I love those visceral images and I was with my face on that because I was in a lot of pain and I was like wanting to feel the I had to like connect to something like I remember the moment in my life and I want to I want to put those pictures in my music more yeah you know it's not as vague you want to grow yeah you want to grow it's not as vague well when you're young those sort of very vague thoughts are cutting so deep because you're feeling those feelings for the first time right so you're like no no trust me this shit is deep yes I get lost in your eyes this is crazy right yeah you know I mean and when I take like I don't mind not knowing what I'm feeling like you think like that's profound yeah you know take me as take me on the journey with you like all that but but that was of that time and place and if there's going to be yeah something else like I wrote a song on the body remembers this is me not loving you yeah and the the very end of the song it's if only that were true right um yeah there's there might be like a twist or something yeah at this point yeah but I'm always I'm always fascinated by when there are because some of your collaborations are a lot of people in the credits were they all in the room did they contribute through production at times today it depends on this it depends it depends right so you know I think I'm I'm lucky that for the most part the bulk of my songs there's four three four five people on it and if you're seen for the most part if you're seeing the credits of my songs if you're seeing three four people chances are we were all in the room together yeah a couple instances where there was five right maybe we were all there together once you start seeing six seven eight nine ten there is no way I wrote a song with ten people in the room I would rather I'd have a hard time even with four people in the room it's four I got really good because two of my favorite collaborators are these producer team Matt Mann and Robin and they are one of the producer producers two of the producers in the world who really deserve their songwriting credit Robin writes crazy melodies Matthias is is crafting they both are crafting such musical instrumental parts that it is very much worth publishing that they get right right so but with them um neither one of themselves would cons even though Robin does write amazing melodies they wouldn't really consider themselves like they're not going to be able to write a full vocal so they're more on the track and chord exactly instrumentation side and so I'm gonna always want another person um vocal person with me to do it so I got really good at four person sessions because I just love them so much right um once we get to five it does get a little tricky um and then yeah when you're when there's ten it's because either I got handed a song that someone wants a whole lyric rewrite on or a partial lyric rewrite and they've tried the original writers have tried a bunch and it's now been passed to me um that for I'm just speaking to myself personally that'll happen or it's something that I started with just three people and then the artist took it on a journey and they went and finished it with somebody else and I would rather them finish it sure and it come out then not of course now a lot you know I know like you know Beyonce credits get talked about all the time Beyonce works as like she's like a director of collage right so she's going to take a verse from this song she loves she's going to take a lyric from that song she loves she's going to take the drums from that song she loves and she's going scrapbooking her album her life story I love that and so you know people I think because the internet hates women mainly they want to always go after her credits for having so many people but never like massive rappers who do the same process they only want to make fun of her credits not Kanye's not to bring up his name it's about the finished product it's about what the song does for somebody what they feel when they hear it and how they do it who cares how they got there but I'm interested in how people yeah you know for interesting so for me you know like like if I look at if I'm going to personally look at my favorite songs in my catalog good luck babe there was three of us in the room you know what I mean it's with with issues Julia Michaels there was four of us in the room you know what I mean it's just like if we're gonna look at the songs that I really love the numbers are normally small smaller you know what I love about issues it sounds like a pure expression of her oh she was and so we were capturing it and that to me is the the genius of yeah I mean going back to just like Bernie Taupin and Elton John like do you ever think about Bernie when you're hearing those songs like I it's just it's Elton's for anyone who doesn't know the Bernie Elton process Bernie writes lyrics first hands them to Elton and he decides what they sound like which is unbelievable to me because like for me and I don't know how you are when you write solo but things come to me and I always say to people it's like I'm singing my thoughts they usually come together yeah and because if I start with like a lyric it always feels like I put a melody on it uh it doesn't feel as coherent and cohesive as if it like I'm like whatever like I'm walking around singing my inner monologue yeah yeah that's how it always works best for me yeah for me at this point because everything I do is so deeply based in were co-writing from the ground up that I I haven't done that in years so when I was younger I used to all the time but that I'm so like on a calendar of writing now which I love I'm a very I love like I am on a writing schedule which I have to get better about that it's I think it's a really beautiful way to just see what happens you know and as but see I'm also I'm not writing about my life and you're writing for yourself for the most part right yes okay well that's a question that me and Morgan were talking about this morning did you ever have the thought of like okay I and you might have I might not know the history well enough so tell me to fuck off if I'm getting this wrong of looking at someone like Linda Perry who had this artist moment and then started writing for other people did you I feel like your pivot right once you left Atlantic and this and that your pivot was like okay I'm gonna try Broadway I'm gonna do shit like this which you were very successful at Broadway and the West End and all these amazing things you broke records at the West End revival of Greece like did you ever think like well maybe should I just go and write and produce for other people yeah so I did a little bit of it in the beginning of my career when it was kind of like you know oh you know Debbie's having hits let's get her to do like so I did god I did like half an album for an Australian artist named Jo Beth Taylor there was a lot of stuff that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did that I did there was a artist named Anna on Sony Columbia that I did a few songs for wrote and produced co-produced okay so you did yeah there was a group called the party on Disney I did but that was all years ago right and then and the reason why I was asking you about like when there were so many people in a room and whatever the former head of Atlantic publishing Gary I'm like his name is last name is escaping me and I know it but anyway I met with him like I guess it was it has to be over 10 years ago at this point like but in one of the later chapters of my career you know and he was like do you want to come write for us and you know he said to me the first he's like sit and play I sat at the piano and played a bunch of stuff I was working on and he was like the days of the solo writer are over so you would really have to be like and and it was a little bit before too it's like he wanted me to kind of write for him and he was like I don't know I don't know planted here in LA and really making it it's as you know it's a full-time vocation full-time job so I the artist side of me is too strong to make that my full-time vocation yeah is really the answer yeah if it could happen like as a and oh by the way like I did a couple things here there right like if you know if you're a part of a session and something there's a loose end and you're like I think Deb can help tie this up call me yeah I would love to do it but am I gonna say I'm gonna make it your full-time job for the next month or six months or six years yeah and not make my own next album yeah that's if I if it's a choice yeah I'm gonna you know do it can you remember a moment in collaborating where you thought someone was really making the wrong choice on your album on your show and then it ended up ended up being the right thing okay that's such a good question so this takes me to like so Sterkin and Rogers and I wrote half of my Body Mind Soul album wrote and produced it we co-wrote co-produced after I turned in what I thought was the album so the way my first few albums worked was I had no A&R person at Atlantic it was Doug Morris and Ahmed Erdogan and it was me no joke those cassettes were in a brown paper lunch bag and I would dump the they were single cassettes and I like had the 10-minute one so each one had a song and I dump it on Ahmed's desk and go here's my album because in the beginning they just kind of didn't get what I was doing and not that they didn't care they were like we don't understand this so just it worked the first time keep doing what you're doing and so by the time we got to my fourth album because the third one did not do as well the anything is possible album did not do as well as the first two and I equate that to a few things first of all the four years of demoing leading up to those first two right right and then suddenly it's like let's get this hurry right and and I think I was in a transition as like a young woman as an artist it was like let me try a little bit of this style and a little bit of that style and I collaborated with Lamont Dozier on that album which was amazing yeah um and I was just experimenting and the landscape was changing and people were going to college and taking their Debbie Gibson posters off the wall or taking them with them or putting the albums under the bed or like whatever they were doing right so by the time we got to the fourth album I was very much in the like I'm gonna say some hybrid of Whitney and Wilson Phillips okay okay like there was like the the the Whitney like kind of soulful pop yeah vocal pop and it was everybody's moment of panic like put her in a little black dress and heels because otherwise we don't know how to market this we need to lean urban art R&B at the time right and I was like right because when you think Debbie Gibson you think urban you think R&B you think R&B hardcore art like it was let's get Prince we'll by the way like 10 years later I would have killed to work with Prince right but that wasn't the right thing at that time that was like let's tart her up and make her one of the Prince protégés because we just want to sell the record because we don't know how else to sell the record right so the the where we landed was on Sterkin and Rogers because they had done Soldier of Love for Donny Osmond which was if if anybody out there remembers this story of a certain generation Donny Osmond was never going to be back on pop radio but Soldier of Love sounded like George Michael right so they white labeled it and sent it to DJs and they did a whole guess who this artist is everybody assumed it was George no yeah and or if it wasn't it was this is this urban this is this R&B right yeah so Soldier of Love great song so I was like okay I mean I'm disappointed that they are they don't like half of what I turned in but okay so that this is where I got confused between like the theater girl in me and the pop artist in me it was like I can be versatile I can kind of play a role and do things their way my way my way their way yeah so that's when you get into trouble I think as an artist yeah right so to answer this question the music I think that album is a great album yep that had very little to do with who I was at the time right so they they they dots did not connect so like the dots did not connect and my audience always knew me and they knew when I was being pure and they knew when I was playing a role yeah right so it was still like an extension of me but not I wasn't really living the life I was writing about and singing about yeah and the beauty of pop music like that's what pop music's supposed to be yeah well there are also those things when when when trends change and things change I think a lot of times when an artist is not 100% being themselves then fans feel like oh you're ashamed of why we what we loved right and then there's this weird push and pull of like well no but we loved her right so why are why are why now you're saying we're supposed to be ashamed of her right that's that exactly right we're all disowning that and we're doing this and like the diehard fans like they went on the journey with me with anything as possible and they loved what there was to love about it and also see I always saw a career as like you know like Billy Joel's like Nylon Curtain I like I'm gonna pull that out like I don't think that sold as much as The Stranger right right Cold Spring Harbor was like my favorite album but that didn't sell as much as The Stranger like but but when you look at an overall career this didn't sell this sold this had hits this didn't and it's this beautiful you know whole trajectory someone's on but what I didn't realize and there's a chapter in my book I call Pop Bullseye Girl they were used to me me being the Pop Bullseye Girl and that's what they wanted me to be yep they weren't signing on for me to be a Billy Joel right right they were like oh you must want to be like one thing Madonna was always brilliant at was having a hit in every era right every decade she would take as long as she didn't if she didn't write the hit she would take it she was just like give me the fucking hit and this one's in and that one's in and she still made it her own yeah but that was hard to do and I think that's what made me want to be a Billy Joel was her genius yeah that wasn't my genius right my genius was like this is how I'm feeling and I'm gonna sing about it right like that was what I did and people like it they don't like it I was fine with that yeah they weren't fine with that yeah how do you in the moments right of the third album not going as well how do you because you have to this speaking for myself you have to come to terms with the failures quick to move on yes I know my way of dealing with the failures quick how do you deal with failures quick or enough to move forward I find the charm in everything like I find the like we were like we had like an airplane hangar we're rehearsing a tour and then it was like the tour went from this to this yeah and so then I was like oh good I can do on my own from Les Miserables in this show because we're going to be in theaters yeah like so I will find that the positive that's me too I will pivot I will adapt and I will find like the good thing about this is and I did that so quickly and the good thing was I did on my own from Les Mis and then got Les Mis and went on to Broadway I mean right because you can't that's not a lesson it's great to have visions but then you can't you can't get stuck on a vision that might there might be a gift in the other way something's going I mean that is the biggest lesson to learn from this okay so my tours are a lot smaller like you have to embrace it let me sing this that's really awesome but I mean I think a lot of times the way that we reframe things in our mind to stay positive to get results that clear is a beautiful beautiful thing to listen I would always rather have a small room full of people who know why they're there than an arena full of people on a bandwagon who are about to disappear any minute yeah because it's a bandwagon and a trend right so like I learned about that too yeah I was like oh I was a trend or I was of the moment for certain you know I say fans I say my fam my fam club um I'm a fan of the bandwagon I'm a big fan of the bandwagon I'm a fan of the bandwagon I'm a fan of the bandwagon I'm a fan of the bandwagon I'm a fan of the bandwagon I'm a fan of the bandwagon I'm a fan of the bandwagon you know I might play a 500 seater it might be a 1200 you know I'll go to I'll go overseas and I'm Michael Jackson like in Peru I just learned right like it's unbelievable cool but I love having the all the like experiences all the experiences yeah here I'm like a like you know depending on the city in America yeah like in New York I might be a 1200 seater and somewhere else I could be a 500 seater or somewhere else I could be a 5000 seater somewhere else and I'm like it all works for me as long as like we're all in the room together and again we care and people know why they're there yeah caring is cool back to the beginning is cool okay so to end every episode we play get matching baseball hats that say caring is cool I'm ordering can we spell it with a k done um I'll order that on the way to the studio oh my god what's the game okay the game is called gag or drag so gag means you love it I love what I'm about I'm gonna give you options I love it or drag you hate it okay okay um gag or drag meaning gag you love it drag you hate it just refresh gag or drag being called difficult for having a point of view gag like I love that you love you love being called difficult well I don't love being called difficult but if it's because I have a point of view call me difficult love it that's where I went that's a great no that's a great fucking answer gag or drag I think I know you already kind of said this gag or drag writing camps that put 12 people on one song how did you know she was going to talk about this drag I I deeply researched that's a group therapy session to me that's not a songwriting session but like so it's a drag you've turned me on to like four people in a room okay cool yeah yeah um gag or drag youth being prioritized over longevity oh wait youth being prioritized wait and how so I'm confused by that one like being youth obsessed instead of like this talent could last for a long time oh right drag yeah we yeah yeah yeah of course yeah um gag or drag when a label asks you to be more commercial drag well especially for you because you started so commercial right that if someone asked you to be more commercial you'd be like bitch this is going to be a Campbell's soup commercial yeah exactly oh my god that's funny um gag or drag reinvention eras oh this is interesting because I'm a fan of that concept but not the word reinvention like I feel like there's like because I feel like like for me I'm always me and I'm just like discovering the version of myself now but I'm not like from the outside in reinventing myself love love so that makes me go drag weirdly yeah because if it's too forced then gross right yeah but modern eras vital energy eras yes yeah love um gag or drag the demo having more feeling than the final well I mean I'm a big demo love girl right so like that's the high bar like so I mean that's a that's a drag like you have to aim to have that feeling of and that's even like so I even like you know tuning being a tool now for a very long time like perfecting the soul out of something to me is a that's a drag yep right so like you want to me you want the magic of a demo yeah like there's something about a first take vocal right I always use a lot of it well but that's because you can sing a lot of times but I find that that's your natural like you're always like every vocal after the first one you're like trying to emulate something you did on that first take yep in my opinion um this Morgan did not write this question so um this is my own gag or drag I'm making up on the spot gag or drag being compared to Tiffany when what you both did was so different um I'm gonna say it's a drag for both of us right because we're so we are so different yeah like I used to be like Whitney Houston and Belinda Carlyle are like the same age why aren't people comparing them yeah like right like it's to me that different yeah we're different vocalists I always I always say this about Tiffany she can sing me under the table she's got this voice like I toured with her so I know like I'm you know the voice I'm in the steam and I'm doing the vocal warm-ups and I'm eating this and that and not eating this and she's like let's go like we're doing a gig like and she can she like the world can be crumbling around her and she's running just as fast as we can um she's like you know could have been at all like belting like she's incredible yeah yeah she has a work ethic yeah and I just want to take a second to to compliment her I mean because like we just did a panel a fan convention panel thing and she talks about it like she had a harder upbringing than me mine was charmed compared to hers right I had my mom you know she had a manager that was kind of Svengali like I'll say it for her yeah um it was hard yeah Tiffany yeah and she came through it and I was like I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this out of it and she yeah tours internationally still and she's like you know she she had her Stranger Things moment with I think we're alone now which is I always love when moments happen to people who are working really hard yeah so it makes me emotional yeah because I hate you know it's a drag that anybody would take a sisterhood and try to create drama there yeah well and I I what I think is because obviously you're so important to me because I became a songwriter but I think the world comparing you to is so unfair because I say all the time everyone in this room is sick of me saying it because I say it in so many episodes but no one's mad that Meryl Streep didn't write her script right so Tiffany for me I'm so grateful that she existed because then I became a Tommy James right super fan and I'll go back to Whitney like Whitney Houston like a Narda Michael Walden and right you like some people are storytellers some singers are storytellers and some singers are exactly yeah exactly and to me it was so unfair that you guys got pitted against each other and all women get pitted against each other in the press endlessly and it's a shit show but for me even being so young I could tell the difference of like this Tiffany is interpreting right and you are writing and they're both so fucking valid and they should not be considered she talks about now too that like you know she has since written a lot of her songs and she's written a lot of her songs and she's written a lot of her records and co-written her records in the last two decades three decades right she wasn't allowed to in the beginning she didn't she wasn't empowered to do that wow and by the way it was magical the pairing of her and I think we're all oh no it's and could have been and like I'm a big fan of hold an old friend's hand I can't remember that writer's name right now but it's one woman who wrote that song really right like I'm so happy that song exists and Tiffany is singing it yeah so yeah like we're meant that's meant to be and I think it's a really powerful thing to be a thing too there are writers who don't sing and singers who don't write and again she now and we all need each other has come into and yes we all need each other so yeah what do you think is the biggest if you could give one piece of advice about collaboration that you've learned about yourself that you wish you could have told yourself sooner oh what is one piece that you would say about collaborating specifically? To me, it's so easy. When you collaborate on a song, in my opinion, when I've collaborated on a song, that is a song that never would have existed in the world if I didn't collaborate, right? So to be precious about doing things on your own just for the sake of the credit is ridiculous. I think because like you can do that and you can collaborate and there's just more music in the world that way. And it brings something out in you that you might not have known you had. And what's so important about you saying that, because I say that all the time, but I've never written a hit alone. You have written multiple number, written and produced and performed multiple number ones alone. So if you can say, hey, there's something valuable about what the other people bring. Oh my God. Everybody listen. Oh yeah. And listen, as an artist, the main, like the mark of a great collaboration is when I get on a stage, like when I get on a stage, like the Body Remembers album is full of collaborations. Pretty much melodies and lyrics are mine, but like they were inspired by somebody's chords and tracks and things, right? And I never once get on a stage and think like, oh, this is somebody else's song I'm doing, right? Or somebody else had- This is their part. Yeah. Right. It's now become, it's fully my expression. Yeah. Right? And if you're a true artist, like you're not going to let your, your ego get in the way of making something truly great. No, like you're owning it. Right. And if you're owning it as an artist and it can still be your, again, because you help people channel their voice, right? So that's powerful. So like when I get out there, it's my voice and my expression and how whoever all contributed, I'm so grateful. Yeah. You know, so it's cool. But it is cool because like in the beginning, I did feel like I had something to prove because, you know, if, if it was written by Debbie Gibson, so-and-so and so-and-so, people would have been like, she really probably didn't write that. Right. Right. So the fact that I'm like, great, I've done it. I've proven it to myself and everybody I could sit at a piano and do this myself. Then it just becomes like, it becomes more fun to collaborate with nothing to prove. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. You are my hero. Oh my God. Thank you. So, so much for being here. And thank you for looking this fabulous while being here. We've got rhinestones. And we, we, we did not plan the denim outfits. We didn't. I threw this in my bag and hopped a flight this morning. This was in my tote, my carry-on. And then we stopped for coffee on the way. And I like did the girl thing of there was no restroom. So there's, I had a t-shirt on and I put the corset over it and then shimmied the t-shirt. Only girls do this kind of thing. It's amazing. It's a special skill we have. And hearing you sing parts of your songs, in my living room was a pretty amazing moment for me. - Oh my God. Thank you. - It's like deeply emotional. It's really crazy. - Thank you. - I tried to not do this the whole fucking time. - I have never seen you cry. - Oh my gosh. - You're the reason that I. - I need to get up. - You're the reason I wrote songs. You're the reason my parents got to retire early because you made songs real to me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. - Oh my God. - So fucking cool. - I'm so honored that like anything that I did in my life got to inspire you to get all, because of all of it, you guys have so many incredible songs and it's just like the universe doing this whole chain of chain reaction. - Thank you. - Watch Unfamous on Spotify. Subscribe for no ads. I'll see you there.