Deb | Featured on ABC's Betrayal: Secrets and Lies

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This is Matt Altmix from How to Money, and we are all about comparing prices to save money on so many things in life. So why wouldn't you compare prices for your next ride share? Taking a few seconds to check Lyft can save you real money on your next ride. And I did this last time I caught a ride home from the airport after some travel, and guess who came out on top? Lyft. So don't just price check with flights and phone plans and your groceries. Comparing ride share prices will help you to save money every time you ride. Don't just price check with flights and phone plans and your groceries. Save money, check Lyft. and working as a full-time nurse. hospital as a baby nurse. I'd probably turn 20, maybe 21 by then. It was tough, but I spent a good part of my energy on trying to achieve perfection. Deb and her husband shared a very similar upbringing. He came from a violent background, very similar to mine. And so we just went together like peanut butter and jelly. They had two sons together, but a few years into marriage, her husband's behavior became a problem. He struggled with drugs and drinking, and he had violent tendencies. It was really hard. She eventually left her husband and resolved to end the cycle of violence to make a safe and stable environment for her and her two sons. And so for many years, I remained single, and just spent time with myself and the boys. And so for the next few years after we divorced, I sought to understand. I bought books. I joined book clubs. Anything on self-understanding. She started going to therapy and joined support groups for families impacted by alcoholism. She was creating a better life for herself and for her sons. When her sons became teenagers, she looked around and realized, I did want a partner in life. You know, someone to enjoy life, that I meant something to, that I mattered to. She was 41 and felt ready to explore a new partnership. So she made an online dating profile. This was 1997, back when online dating was a novel concept. Yeah, this ain't Bumble. This ain't, yeah, this is none of that stuff. One man piqued her interest. His name was Jeff Walton. His profile was just romantic. It was something like, I'm looking for my Guinevere. Jeff said he wanted to treat his next partner like a queen. Deb wrote him an email. He lived a couple states away in Kentucky, but their conversation flowed easily. And Deb quickly discovered they shared the same interests. They both loved golf. And Jeff wanted to hear more about Deb's Cherokee culture. You know, the muse. He loved music, a spiritual journey. He loved the Native American spiritual practices. And when I talked to him, I was just smitten with him. She looked forward to his phone calls and emails. I saved all of that. I printed everything. I had a huge three-inch purple binder with all of our exchanges. As they got closer, she got to know more about his backstory. He was born in Alaska. And moved to Canada. He was a dual citizen of Canada and the United States. And he had a complicated relationship with his biological family. He didn't know he's real dad. His stepdad was very violent. And he would share stories. Like, you know, his stepdad murdered the family poodle in front of his sister and his mom and him. And I mean, it was horrible stories. Deb had seen her share of violence as well. She understood what it was like. So they bonded over their difficult childhoods. Jeff's family was still in Canada, but they'd fallen out of touch. He moved to New Orleans as a young man. And along the way, he picked up the accent. So when he would talk to me on the phone, he would have that, you know, dialect. He would say, "Hello, darlin'." Yeah, I can't do it. But it was definitely New Orleans. Jeff's ex-wife and adult son still lived in New Orleans. But after his divorce, he'd taken a job in Kentucky. He was a project manager for a big construction company that, you know, worked on Toyota plants, that worked on the internet. He was a project manager for a big construction company that, you know, worked on the internet. Jeff was the kind of person who'd lived a million lives in one. He just fascinated me. He was a pilot and played football for Woody Hayes at Ohio State and was phenomenal. Deb could really see herself with this guy. We're gonna embark upon this journey together. We love music. We love golf. We're both seekers. I just was so excited about meeting this man. After a year of talking, they decided to finally meet each other in person. Jeff flew to Oklahoma. When he arrived at the airport, she was waiting for him with a gift. I'd had a traditional healer, a medicine man, gone to him and asked him to bead a feather. There was a song by Robbie Robertson, and the name of it was, "Golden feather, give my love a golden feather." And if you were to look it up, it's, "So that I never lose my way home." And I thought, "What a beautiful expression of love for this new man in my life to give him a feather because he loves that Native American song so much." So I met him at the plane with that, and I said, "Here's so you can always find your way home." And Jeff had come with a surprise of his own. Since he got off the plane and he was walking toward me, it seemed like his voice was shaking. And he said, "You will marry me, won't you? You're going to marry me, right? You are marrying me, right?" That was Jeff's marriage proposal. And I was like, "Well, of course, of course, yes." The weekend could not have gone better. Jeff wanted to get to know her world. You know, I drove around, showed him the rural area, my history, some of the culture, where I worked. We went out to my golf course. I introduced him to a lot of my friends, met the family. It was just a really good weekend. I just loved him, just loved him. They started making arrangements for him to move to Oklahoma. And I'm a planner and an organizer. And every aspect of my life, so shoot, the next thing you know, I'm getting busy, I'm helping him find jobs. He's getting his resume, of course, we're still using faxes then. And he would send things and I would write cover letters for him to help him get relocated. A few months later, Jeff moved in. They spent the next year planning a small family wedding in the Ozarks. We married on April 23rd, 2000. It was the anniversary of the day they met in person. Deb's youngest son walked her down the aisle, and Jeff's son, little Jeff, flew in to support his dad. It was a true merging of their lives. I really thought it was meant to be. They planned their first trip together as newlyweds, a golf trip with Deb's group of friends. Deb had been golfing for her entire life. Every year, she and her friends traveled to Oklahoma. They traveled the country to play. Jeff was eager to join. He'd been an avid golfer when he was younger, but he hadn't played in years. So he lost his golf clubs. Well, heck, you know, I gotta go buyin' golf clubs, you know, 'cause he's gotta have golf clubs if we're gonna play. So then he needed lessons, 'cause he just hadn't got to play in a while, he said, needed to brush up. But on their first golf trip with her friends… Once we got all the scores in and everything, the winner was him. And I was like, "Well, golly, great job." But Deb's friends were standoffish with Jeff about his win, and one of her friends was quick to point out… A real golfer is not gonna leave their clubs behind. It doesn't make sense. Her friends had never acted like this before. She didn't know what happened. And neither did Jeff. But after that, they weren't invited on any more golf trips. I felt like everybody knew. Everybody was mistreating him. A year into their marriage, Jeff was still struggling to find the right job in Oklahoma. One day, when Deb was helping him with an application… Well, I found an old resume. And on this particular resume, it says, "Vietnam Veteran." I was like, "My God." He'd never told her he was a veteran, but Deb had a lot of experience with the VA. While getting her advanced nursing degree… She worked on a program at the VA that specifically studied Vietnam veterans with PTSD. I'm like, "You never told me you were a veteran. You never told me you were in the Vietnam War. That is a significant event in life." I was flabbergasted. It had never come up. And he said, "Well, I don't like to talk about it, Deb. I use it all the time. It's on my resumes because, you know, that ought to tell you something." And I was like, "But you should have told me. I should never have found out here." Deb felt like he needed to talk about it, even if he didn't want to. She'd had first-hand experience with veterans and PTSD. And so over the course of time, he began to tell me what happened. It was an elaborate story, intricate details. As an 18-year-old, he'd been in the Special Forces in Vietnam. One night, he caught his senior officers using drugs. Fearing he would turn them in, the officers allowed Jeff to be captured. He was held as a prisoner of war. And for months, he was tortured. And they busted his feet with the butt of a gun so that he couldn't walk. But he got out, and he escaped, and he made it back to the U.S. forces by following the path of a stream. And it was so difficult because his feet were busted up. He was taken to a veteran's hospital. He had to have metal put in his feet because they were broken. And if we flew anywhere, it would trigger the metal alarms as you go in. He recovered physically and was discharged. But psychologically, he was scarred. The trauma was so bad, he said it was just so awful that sometimes he would just get in the closet and he would just hide. Deb was worried about his mental health, especially because his support system was thin. He was in a new place and wasn't in touch with his biological family. So Deb was happy when his siblings reached out to reconnect. They invited him back to Canada. His siblings had said that his mother's 80th birthday party was coming up, and they wanted him to come. And he talked to me about it, and I said, well, we've got to. I've never met any of your family, and absolutely. A few months later, they flew to Alberta to meet his family. They hadn't seen Jeff in decades. They were elated to welcome him home. And Deb never thought she'd get the chance to meet his siblings. I finally got to meet his family. I was just so excited to be there and to meet them. And, you know, at one of the brothers' houses, we might play games and just chat and get to know each other. Deb fit right in. We didn't have any serious, meaningful conversations. About life or anything. We were just doing a friendly, cordial, meet-the-family thing. He was upbeat. Everyone was upbeat. It was a good trip. It was a good trip. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Deb didn't know it at the time, but everyone there was in on a secret. Everyone except for her. Her husband, Jeff, wasn't who he said he was. In fact, everyone in his family knew Jeff by a different name. Come to find out, he met his siblings at the door and told him, I'm going by Jeff Walton now. I'll tell you later. If you've ever tried to find a psychiatrist who takes your insurance, you know how frustrating it can be. Long wait lists, no availability, or finding out they don't accept your insurance at all. That's why I'm excited to tell you about Talkiatry. Talkiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, and more. 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If you're headed to a concert, out to dinner, or catching up with your friends on a Friday night, taking a few seconds to check Lyft could leave you with more money to enjoy the experience. Save money. Check Lyft. Deb and her husband went to Canada to reconnect with his estranged family. And to her surprise, the trip was a success. Meeting his family brought the two of them closer. But one day after they returned from their trip, Jeff collapsed on the golf course. And a friend of ours found him sitting up against a tree and wanted him to let him take him into the hospital. And he said, no, just take me to my car. And so he did that. He got in his car and he drove home. Deb met him at their house and forced him to go to the hospital. Jeff had suffered a major heart attack. It would require ongoing care. But Jeff still hadn't nailed down a steady job. So the couple needed help covering his medical expenses. Deb had worked at the VA years ago and insisted it was their best resource. And he absolutely said, I will not go. I don't trust the government. I'm not going. And I said, well, that's bullshit. We're going broke. We've got to get your health care. That's when Jeff explained the VA wouldn't take him. He said, they don't even have a list of me because I was dishonorably discharged because I reported the officers. They won't even have me on, well, anything to do with the VA. And I said, that's bullshit. You were a soldier. You were captured. And he said, I won't. I won't go. He got up and he never talked about it again. In that moment, I was like, that is weird. His explanation just didn't add up. Deb even considered hiring someone to look into Jeff's background. I wonder if I need to get a private investigator or something. And I logged on to the internet. Internet. And then I was like, God, I don't have any money to get a private detective. She didn't have the money or the time to hire a PI. Shortly after Jeff's heart attack, he had a stroke. Then his memory began to falter. All the while, he was refusing to go to the VA. It financially strained the family. And Deb was at a loss. I had begun to say, I do not know what is wrong with my life. How am I going to How do I get this guy health care? have health care. Deb was his primary caretaker on top of her full-time nursing job. It was overwhelming. I began to drink and then I drank heavily and then it was uncontrollably. Alcohol became an escape from her marriage and its problems. When I started drinking, I didn't have to be confused anymore because my brain was numb. Deb had spent so many years taking care of other people that she neglected herself. I was the person that was going to Al-Anon from the mid-80s, taking family, taking co-workers, taking friends to AA, NA, rehab. I was taking everybody to get help. But myself had, I guess, reached just a hard stop where I couldn't deal with it. Deb had just turned 50 and had been with Jeff for a decade, but life with him was becoming harder year after year. At first, he failed to bring in a steady income. Then, when he became sick, he refused resources for affordable health care. Deb turned to booze for the stress. But one day, after a long night of drinking, she found herself too shaky to put the golf ball on the tee. She checked herself into a 30-day rehab. Best move I ever made. I'm not going to tell you it was pretty. It was ugly. It was ugly. But there's always been a driving force within me to rise above. Being alone in rehab gave her a lot of clarity. And with that clarity came questions, specifically about Jeff. When she left rehab, she looked at Jeff's behavior with a new set of eyes. I began to really observe. He was strange. Something was not right. Not right. She wasn't ready to leave the marriage. Her focus was on her new sobriety. But she did come up with a plan. To get some answers out of Jeff, she gave him an assignment. And I began to say to him, Jeff, every day while I'm at work, I want you to work on your life story because I don't understand it. You told me you were born in Alaska and you moved to Canada. But I don't know where you even went to school. I don't even know when you moved to Canada. If something happens, I'm going to be honest with you. I can't even write an obituary. She thought it would be a good exercise for both of them. And she hoped it could help her understand why he was the way he was. And so every day I would come home and I would go, well, share your story with me. Well, I couldn't work on it today. After his stroke, Jeff's memory was worse than ever. He began to claim that he just didn't have much of a memory. But the neurologist at the time of his stroke had already advised me that the stroke was not going to impact his memory. And he wanted me to get him checked for possible early dementia. He needed more care than she could provide at home. So she applied for him to be in a funded outpatient care facility. And he was accepted. It's a wonderful program. It's a wonderful program where you stay in your home. But they basically have a center that's open during the day. And there's activities and transportation. There's clinic on site. Everything that you could need. And if you need something outside, they'll take you. He started going to the center every day. That was until. The program called me and they said, have you talked to Jeff? Because nobody can find him. He's gone. Deb was at work. She didn't know where he was. With his memory issues, she worried he could have gotten lost. So they called the police. Come to find out, he had left the group and the care team to go to the bank. When Deb got there, Jeff seemed confused about what was happening. The whole situation confirmed that he really needed this facility. His memory must be worse than she thought. But shortly after Jeff's incident at the bank, Deb received another phone call. Only this one. Would change her life forever. It was a number I didn't recognize. And I typically didn't pick those up in my office. It was an international call. But Deb had a strange feeling. When she picked up, there was a police officer on the other line. And I was like, what is this about? The officer was Canadian. And he was investigating a cold case from 30 years ago. That's when he began to say that they were looking for wrongs. And they had believed that they were tracking down through social media. But Deb didn't know a Ron Stan. The officer continued, explaining that Canadian police had been looking for a man named Ron Stan for over 30 years. He disappeared during a fire. There was a fire in his barn at night. And initially he was presumed to have been in that fire. And he had left. He had left a wife, an infant, and another child. Deb's blood ran cold. She knew what the officer was about to say before he said it. The man she was married to, who she knew as Jeff Walton. It was actually a complete fraud. He was Ron Stan, who was this missing person. Here's the thing about Ron Stan. He was originally declared dead. But in reality, he'd been on the phone for a long time. And he'd been on the run ever since that barn fire. For me, I'd love to save. I'd love to save up for a really nice vacation and maybe put some money aside for a new car. It's always nice having something to look forward to. And knowing you're actually making progress towards those bigger goals feels really good. Cash back is earned as OnePay points, redeemable in a OnePay deposit account or other available options. Reward details can be found in the OnePay app. This is Adam Devine, Blake Anderson, and Anders Holm from This Is Important. Like getting excited about a new vacuum? Making a spreadsheet for a group trip? Saying, uh, let's circle back and meaning it? 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Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. 11 years into her marriage, Deb Proctor got a phone call out of the blue. From a Canadian police officer. They were looking for Ron Stan, a Canadian man who'd been missing and later declared dead after an arson fire in 1977. And they believed they'd found him in the United States. He was hiding out in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation, using the name Jeff Walton. When the police explained this to Deb, Initially, I thought it was perhaps just a cruel joke. So she asked, I asked the officer for proof, for details. The more I pushed for. She didn't say much on the phone. She just listened, writing down everything the police told her. Canadian officials wanted to speak to Jeff, or Ron, directly. Deb explained that he was in a care facility during the day because of his memory problems. She confirmed their home address, thanked the officer, and hung up the phone in disbelief. I was sitting there when there was a nurse that looked at me from the office door, and she said, are you okay? I remember saying, I don't know. I've just had the most bizarre phone call. So I went to talk to my director of nursing, and she said, get out of here. What in the world? She debated whether this phone call was real, if the person on the phone was even a police officer. A co-worker who was afraid for Deb suggested another possibility. He probably is in witness protection, and you just blew it. So you're probably not safe, nor is he. And they said, we'll go with you to the Cherokee Nation Marshals, and we will get to the bottom of this. So Deb went straight there. She wanted to know if the call she'd received was real, or if Jeff could be in witness protection. An investigator took Deb's concerns seriously and started making calls. I gave her the cell number, the badge number, and everything from the officer that called. And she did call, and she confirmed every last detail. She verified that Jeff Walton didn't exist. Her husband of 11 years was a missing person. A man? Named Ronald Stan, who'd faked his death in an arson fire, and had been on the run for 30 years. I was just heart sick, gut sick, heart sick. My whole body responded, and all I could think of was, who are you? How could you do this? When Ronald Stan disappeared from his farm in rural Ontario in 1977, he abandoned his wife and two young sons. In order to escape, he had lit his barn on fire, killing all the animals. His family watched the blaze helpless, fearing that Ron was trapped inside. That poor wife and those two sons that he walked away from in this barn fire in the middle of the night. What horror, what pain, what trauma that they must have endured thinking that they were watching him burn up in front of their eyes. Why he'd faked his death, Deb wouldn't find out until much later. In that moment, she just knew she couldn't go home. Not to the house she shared with him. He was a criminal, a fraud, a total stranger. So the Cherokee Marshals helped her come up with an immediate plan. Go to an attorney, go to the bank, and get protection. So that's what I did. She made it. She made an appointment with a divorce attorney for the following day. And a friend offered to let Deb stay at her place while she figured out her next move. I just was in a state of robot. Just trying to put one foot in front of the other. And then formulate a plan on how to tell the family. She met with her sons to break the news. And with all of their support, she called Jeff's son. The one he'd had in America. After he went on the run. After all, he was the only child Deb knew about. I loved that boy. He was my son too, you know. He was a third son. So my heart hurt for him, just like it did for my boys, to tell him. Everyone in the family called him Little Jeff. He was named after his father. Or rather, his father's alias. And his response was, you know, silent initially, as you could imagine. And then just struggling. We both needed some time to just deal. The one person she didn't want to speak with was Jeff. I really did not have any communication with him whatsoever. I just had nothing to say. When the authorities finally got a hold of Jeff, they questioned him. And asked to see his proof of identity. He admitted to everything. In fact, he seemed amused. He made a joke to police officers, asking what took them so long. Because the arson had happened so long ago, the statute of limitations had expired in Canada. And authorities in the U.S. couldn't charge him either. There was no charges to be made here, you know. He's a scam. But there's no charges that I could file. The only legal action Deb could take was filing for divorce. The domestic violence. The violent service of the tribe helped me and just took the papers. And when they served him the papers, he just signed it. He didn't even question it. The news caught wind of the story. And it was a media frenzy. Media showed up from Canada, from Oklahoma, from the U.K. I just didn't have any peace. I could rarely go home. My phone rang constantly. I was just completely overwhelmed. Deb's niece drafted a statement to send to the press on her behalf. And Deb kept tabs on the news. That's how she learned Jeff's real-life story. The one he claimed he couldn't remember. A journalist with the Toronto Star had been reporting on it. Through their investigation, they uncovered a possible motivation for why he faked his death. Evidently, he was messing with young college girls. And he was getting ready to get in trouble. At the time of the arson, Ron was working at a college in Canada. He was having a relationship with a local girl who was much younger. The day he went missing, it seemed this information was about to be revealed. It's not clear how old the girl was. But the threat of being discovered prompted him to go on the run for three decades. Deb also learned how he pulled it off. When he left Canada in the fire and came to New Orleans, he said, "I've got to find a woman with money." He did. In fact, he did. In fact, he had two other marriages he'd never told Deb about. And after he found a woman with money, he needed papers to validate his new identity. He got a Social Security from somebody that had died in the '70s, a girl. So he took over her Social Security. He used his stolen identity to find work and even collect Social Security benefits. That's how he worked in the decades that he came to the United States. He used this Social Security and false name. I don't know how anybody pulls this off. It's so elaborate. When the story broke, Jeff himself spoke to the media about how and why he faked his death. And he seemed to revel in it. He sought that attention. He wanted to be a star. He said he chose the name Jeff because it was the name of his infant son he abandoned in Canada. And the last name, Walton, was inspired by the TV show "The Waltons." It sounded like a classic American last name. As for the documents he used to marry Deb, they appeared to be forged. I had seen his birth certificate and I still have it. But when you look, there are things that have been changed. Like the arson, too much time had passed for him to be charged in the U.S. with identity fraud. And what about his elaborate suicide? He was a victim of the U.S. military. military. military. escape. She also wonders if he targeted her because she lives in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation. It's very possible because, look, this is rural. This is a dead-end road. Maybe he did think, hey, I can get out in the woods in rural Oklahoma and continue to hide. One of the most baffling aspects of his deception is that visit to Canada a few years into their marriage. Back then, the reunion seemed completely normal. But behind the scenes, Jeff had asked all of his family members to use his new name instead of calling him Ron. They said they were so happy to see him again that they obliged. They did it because they'd lost him once and they didn't want to lose him again. I think they were just so happy to have him back in their lives. There's clearly so much more to his family dynamics than she'll ever know. It still doesn't sit right with her. What makes it okay that you support this couple? This kind of deception. In the beginning, she didn't even know how to refer to him, what name to call him by, whether to call him Ron or Jeff. But I had a really dear friend. She nicknamed him Ref. And so for a while, when I referred to him, it was Ref. But now I usually just say Jeff. In the weeks after his double life was revealed, Deb was emotionally destroyed. It all happened in her first year of sobriety. Jeff moved back to New Orleans with his son, and Deb was left alone in the house they shared. I just remember it was a profound moment. It's the duality of, oh my God, what in the world? Along with, you have to live. You have to deal with this and go on. And I remember just laying in the floor, just face down and just sobbing and saying, my God, how does another human do this to a human in the guise of love? In that moment, she couldn't get up. It felt like her world had ended. I just had so much pain and confusion. I got on my knees, I leaned into a chair, and I just kept praying and asking for help. And just, if you can get me on my feet, I will go forward. I will keep my sobriety. I promise. I promise. I made a commitment to live life, to help others, to be the best person I can, to be loving, kind. I mean, those were the things I'd always been, but I was not going to let this make me harsh and hateful. In the throes of despair, she gained vivid clarity. Spiritual awakenings. I feel like I've had a few in my life, but that was profound, profound. And when I stood up, you know, I was still crying, but I wasn't suffering as much. I didn't feel the pain as deep at the betrayal or shock. And I knew that when I stood up, that it was something greater than me. It said, get up. Yeah, go on. She got up that day, and she's stayed on her feet ever since. I made a commitment to do that in that moment, and I've never turned back, and I've never tried to rewrite the story. And I don't want to live in bitterness. I still wanted to be open-hearted and help others. And that's what set the tone for the years to where we are today. She's now 11 years old. I maintained sobriety. I was dedicated to my meetings, and I was dedicated to the spiritual journey and dealing with my loss and grief and shock. She took on a leadership role in her tribe as director of a program providing resources and support to victims of domestic violence. I would say you've still got to stay working on your emotional health, because it's a tough service. What I know for sure is that we can't help others adequately or appropriately if we haven't begun our own work to heal. I feel like I'm more effective in these last years because of all the work I've done. In 2019, she got a call from Jeff's son. Jeff, had passed away. It was a sense of relief. But also, all the emotions that flood into that moment, you just have to hold them. In the last few years, her life has taken an unexpected turn. I just recently married on September 7th, and I never saw it coming. Both of us are nevers. And it was the most beautiful wedding outdoors, overlooking the lake. It was just beautiful. Romantic. Just wonderful. After all, she did make a commitment to being open-hearted. Her new husband meets her at her level. And he's put in the work, too. He is also sober. Him, 40-something years. Both of us love golf. Both of us love music. It's just a blessing for us both. We feel so grateful. It's too bad we're meeting each other at 70 and 67. But here we are. We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to share your story? If my story could help others identify lies from their partner earlier, that's one part. The real part is we can heal. And we can have a good life. And we can live well. The trauma and the pain and the suffering and the sorrow, we have the potential to just be an amazing human on the other side. Leave your heart open. Love others. Help others. Learn boundaries. Set limits. On the next episode of Betrayal. My mom was the first one to be like, does this seem off at all to you? It was really the first time someone like said something that made me think, what do you mean off? Like I had never considered doubting it. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 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