Death Investigator REACTS to Video of Charlie Kirk Being Carried to His Car

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He jumps on top. He cuts the shirt off because he wants to prepare for a defibrillator. Now, I don't believe any of that. I think that's totally made up. The security guy? Yeah, yeah. That's his claim. I mean, Brian, don't sue me. I know you're suing people. Don't sue me. But I think I'm accurately representing what he said on Sean Ryan. Wow. And at that point, that's the last we've heard of the Freedom Shirt. Does that strike you as odd to have a security guy take control of a body when it's in an emergency room and do anything with the clothing? Secret Service were some of the biggest assholes on the face of the planet when it came to Kennedy, now, weren't they? Yeah. And they were quite odd, yeah. They're putting, you know, Dr. Rose against the wall, threatening to arrest him. We're taking the body with us. Oh, right. You know? So, I don't know. It wouldn't happen in my world, but, you know. A lot of medical professionals have weighed in and said they don't believe that story. Yeah, I've never seen that happen. It's possible. It's possible. It's true. I guess it's possible. Imagine you're a doctor that walks in there and you see a civilian and his coach is looking at him for the first time, cutting on the body you're about to work on. Like, that's wild to me. But I'm glad you brought it back to the shirt because I wanted to ask you about this earlier. You were talking about. the things, all the evidence you'd be looking for on the shirt. And you mentioned, you know, where the mic was, all that. What, like, medically speaking, or I should say scientifically speaking, what kinds of tests are you performing on the shirt? What are you. Are you using products on it? Like, for all of us out there that have no idea how this works. Yeah, so there are specific. specific explosive residue tests that can be done. And I got to tell you guys, if it were me, State Crime Lab, I'm sure, is fantastic in Utah. That shirt, for me, I would want that in the hands of ATF because that is where they dance, baby. And I would want them to check that thing from stem to stern. You know, we've. Is this just a microscopic examination? Are they adding chemical fluids? No, there's. There can. Yeah, there is actually. There's two ways of testing it. First off, we do what's called a gross examination, which the gross examination. is literally as it sounds. You are physically looking at the scene. You're using hand lenses and you're also using scopes that have a certain magnification and you can look over the surface of it. And this is kind of the multi-step process that it. that it goes through. And it's at that point, once they have cleared it, and they. And I wanted to point this out as well, just so you guys know. And we can get this. get to this with DNA as well later because I think a lot of people wonder about how the samples are taken. That shirt would be broken down into little grids, okay? So if you've got it laid out, for instance, we do this with what are called tape lifts. Tape lifts, like if you take tape and you lift off of the surface of a shirt, say it's the right arm, well, this is going to be the right anterior, arm of the shirt, okay? That tape lift is set aside and this is designated like A1. A2 would be the left anterior aspect and then B1, B2 on the back. And so you're breaking. So it's controlled. You know, you're just not like randomly searching it. And just as you search it, you would break an item up like that into grids so that you can go back and identify it. Say, I examined grid such and such and in here I found nothing grids. Grossly. Then you go back with whatever kind of chemical testing they're going to be doing and they're going to look for a wide variety of things and anything they collect also microscopically is not necessarily. It's not purely a chemical test as much as it is you have. You're going to use spectrometry where certain chemicals bend a lot. You're going to use light in a particular way. And so they're going to look at it from that perspective microscopically. They would run this thing through the mill very, very thoroughly. That's why. So is this the medical examiner or is this. That's going to be the state of me. But does the medical examiner take custody of the. Yeah, temporarily you do. And a lot of people don't understand this. I'm glad I got a chance to kind of explain it. So if a body comes into the morgue and it's fully clothed, the best practice is to in fact have a crime scene investigator physically there from whoever the law enforcement agency is that is working the case, okay? And those items generally are turned over to that subject, okay? That's in charge of it. Now, there are certain cases where like a shirt like that is going to be super saturated. Obviously, you can see it. You know, that's going to be really, really wet and gunky, okay? We have what we refer to as evidence dryers. Now, they're not like a tumble dryer. It's like a big box that you literally place something on a hanger and you hang it inside the sink and there's no humidity in it and it dries the sink out in place so that it becomes so that any evidence that's on there is manageable and you're not going to lose it. And that's not the medical examiner either? No. No. It all depends on the department. Okay. If you go to L.A., they've got an in-house forensics department there, okay? So, it might have to go somewhere else and it's going to pass through a lot of hands. So, not even state to state. It could be different cities, city to town to town. Absolutely. And it all depends on, you know, what kind of resources. Again, you're talking about bureaucrats, right? Right. You know, so it all depends on you don't know what their funding is. You don't know, you know, there's a lot of unknowns relative to that. Okay. So, they would put that in the grid section so they have that back to refer to? Now, when you're looking at, just take it on the whole rather than focusing on each part of the grid. When you're looking at it, what types of things would you be looking at right away to determine gunshot or something else? Well, for me, in a gross examination, if we go back to the idea that there was an explosive event, okay, explosive events look completely different than firearms events. So, you'll actually see like bits of charring, you know, around an area. I've seen cases where things have exploded on people and clothing is like singed, burned. There's a certain element of heat, like really intense heat that arises from that in the immediate area. So, you're not necessarily saying that that happened, but it has to be taken into consideration. If it's a question that has been asked, you want to try to be able to facilitate answering that question, either in the negative or the positive. We don't see any evidence of that or, hey, you know, this might be a problem. This might be evidence of it. So, in the gross examination, that's kind of what you would be looking for. Also, with clothing that, where you have an explosive event, you'll get this kind of fragmentation thing that takes place. So, you'll see like little bitty defects in there. You know, if you've got some item that is blowing apart, you'll see little defects that are not, they're not necessarily uniform, but you'll see, the clothing kind of frayed and torn and that sort of thing. Okay. One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in the description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button. If you haven't already, I really appreciate that. Also, the like button's a big help and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below. Now, when you, once he was actually shot and you see the security team go around it, let's bring the video back in now because we do have video. I had said earlier, let's pretend we didn't have video. How do you look at it? You bet. What are the first things that a good, well-trained, first responding security team should be looking at to do handling a body like this. like that on the spot that has been hit with something that traumatic? Stem the bleeding immediately. I mean, pressure has to be applied, but you can't, this is a, this is a difficult area, man. It's difficult. You don't want to choke them out. No, you don't like, you know, because you know, one of the things, I mean, you know, it's like, again, when dinosaurs were on the earth, when I went through the army, you know, when I went through army basic training, all those years, it was man, we had those Springfield rifles, man, muzzle loaders. Um, you, you, you know, they teach you to apply direct pressure. They do that in any kind of first aid course. The neck in particular is very difficult. Um, you know, how much, how much pressure do you apply in that specific area? But look, if you, if you can't stem the bleeding, all is lost, man. I mean, it, you're going to have to stem it. And with an injury or an insult like that, what would you use to stem the bleeding? Your hand direct pressure? Yeah. And if you have, I would assume, that if you had somebody that had some baseline medical training, they may try to take a four by four, which is, you know, the four by four, uh, you know, kind of bandage thing that you see and try to plug the hole. Perhaps it, I mean, desperate times, desperate measures, but you know, even if you had, even if you had a team of surgeons that were standing by with that shot or with that defect, or with that trauma, they would have a difficult time under those circumstances. Even right on the spot. Yeah. I think they would. Yeah. So we have video of them responding. Um, it, it's difficult to tell what they're doing back there. What would it look like? If you couldn't see him and them, what would they be doing to stem the bleeding that you would be able to tell from above the table? Would you be, see them reaching repositioning him? What are they doing? Because they're, they're seeing what you're seeing is, because his horse, um, maybe still beating at this point. Don't know. All right. Might have agonal, agonal respirations, which is just kind of this, you know, that kind of shallow thing that's going on. Life is ebbing away. When you see that what appears to be blood issuing forth from the defect, that's not going to last very long. If the heart is still bumping, pumping, because these are major, major vessels in here, and they have a tremendous amount of pressure. Particularly the carotid, uh, if it clipped the carotid with the heart, you know, pumping away like this, it's, you know, and we see this with like, um, bloodstain analysis, you know, like, um, we call it arterial spray, for instance, like if you have somebody that has their throat cut and it clips, clips, an artery, you'll see it. Did you see spray in that video? So soft kind of a flow at that point, but it's, it's really hard to, to make out. It looks like someone just poked a hole in the bottom of a gallon jug. Yeah. And it almost, it almost looks, it almost looks like Venus blood. So what does that tell you? Wait, wait, wait, I'm sorry. Venus like the jugular vein. Okay. Not the planet. Yeah. I mean, that's where my head was. Yeah. So, but what does that tell you? That it just, it looked like it more just dumped out. Yeah. And you might have multiple vessels and you have to in this area because it's so, it's so complex in here, brother, you're going to have multiple, multiple structures that are clipped in here because it's so tightly, it's like if you ever go into a building and I'm getting in trouble for this, but you see like cable that's being run through the wall, you know, and you get into it. If you, if you kind of compare that to vessel structures like that, um, you go into one, you're going to clip other things. And it's so very delicate. And if we have a fragmenting round, even more so on, particularly, when you get, because not only do you have these vessels here, you actually have a blood supply. That's very delicate as well. There is a vertebral artery back here too. That is deadly. Very, very deadly. Like when people have some kind of neck injury, it's not just the spinal cord that will be damaged. If they, if this is, if you fracture a vertebral body back here, that bone becomes, um, it's a, I've cut myself on bone before, uh, in the autopsy room. It passed right through your gloves, uh, done it a number of times. And, um, it's sharp. I mean, you know, our ancestors made weapons out of them, but what do you know? It'll, it'll actually, that vessel could be clipped as well. But, but the fact that it just poured instead of spurted. Yeah. What do you, what conclusion? Well, just again, viewing, viewing this image and it's limited. It's very, very limited. It's not like we've got a tight high def shot. Um, it looks like Venus flow to me. It just does because it just comes out and it's not like doing this. So talk to me about the anatomy, um, of where those two are located. Is one in front of the other, uh, as, as you, as you face the, say you're standing in the external, the, well, you have the external carotid that's right here and that's the arterial. Yeah. That's arterial. So are they laying like this kind of, kind of opposing, like this. And so, but as one in front of the other, as the, as the, yeah, yeah. And so which one's in front, it is the carotid is right here. And so it's going to pass through, pass through and clip and it can clip both of them. Uh, it'll create a defect in both of those, not to mention all the other little arterial and Venus supplies that are branching off of it. So tracking down, of course, the carotid splits down and goes into like the sub clave right here. Uh, which runs right beneath the collarbone and it branches off, um, very highly complex. Um, and again, that's why I was saying there's so much damage that can be done in this particular area. Um, so much damage that can be done in this particular area that even if you had a team of surgeons standing there, it would be very, very, but when you say you see what you perceive as primarily, Venus blood, yeah. Um, is it, is it possible the Venus blood is of, of a higher volume relative to the total? Or is it that you think it may not have arterial blood at all? Why does it look that way to you? I don't know. I couldn't say, I couldn't say. So just going off what we can see here, obviously we have the main story. They've told us, like we said, the beginning one, 38 yards away, 30 odd sex, Tyler Robinson shoots it. When you see a wound like this, though, could you see something like that occurring from something that's not a bullet? I don't know. I'd have to, I would have to have an idea of what that would be. I mean, is it something that's propelled through the air and driven that creates that? And again, I say shape. I can't fully appreciate the shape because it's at such a grand distance. I know that it's not a massive opened area like this. It's not like this. It's not like something has exploded in the sense of like, I hate to keep going back to Kennedy, but with. Well, that's your case, so go back there. I wish it had been my case. It would have been handled a lot different. Yeah, you'd be dead, but. I probably would be. You don't have this explosive event like that. This is a concentrated area. So if you're asking me to speculate on what else could cause this, I really couldn't. It has to be something that's dense enough that would maintain its physical characteristics in order to create a defect that you're going to have blood pouring from it. Is it. Initially, when people watched it, they all assumed it was an exit wound. I mean, the first day, everyone was like, that looks like an exit wound because it was so big. When you first see it before the blood starts pouring out, you see a. I mean, it's hard to tell on a two-dimensional video, but it looks like it's the size of a nickel or larger, which is a lot larger than a typical entry wound. Is it possible that that is blood coming out and nothing had gone in, meaning there's some action on his body that caused it to erupt through the skin? I can't. And to my way of thinking, nothing comes to mind right now that would explain. That's where I am. Yeah. I mean. I just figured I'd ask you the answer. No, no, no, no. I mean, and nothing comes to mind that where I'm thinking about it, that it could be. You could have something that would produce that kind of insult. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people that have speculation about that. So Martinson's original. Thought where he was talking about it, it was a shot from somewhere else. In that situation, to go back to what you were saying, just to set the standard here, if it is another type of weapon or another type of gun that fired around, you'd still. Would it matter what kind of bullet or what kind of gun to be able to see that same kind of spinning cycle you were describing with the bullet to be able to examine the wound and figure out the entry point? No, no, no, no, no. That. The abrasion collar that I was referred to earlier, it's going to look like a gun, but you'll still see it. Okay. Would you see that. You'd see it with a.22 round. I guess it would depend what another kind of weapon would be, but are there other things that aren't guns where you would see a similar behavior cylindrically? That's not a word, but you know what I mean? No, I know what you're saying. Yeah. That would cavitate through that area and create that. Not that I could think of that's not. You're talking about something. Just so that I'm clear, you're talking about something that is being projected, right? - Sure, yeah. - Okay, so I know that's kind of obvious, I just have to ask that question. So you're talking about something that's being projected. Not in my experience that I've seen. You know, if you're thinking some kind of air-driven thing or something else that's been discharged through the air that could stay on that trajectory and strike and be lethal, nothing comes to mind for me. Okay. Real quick, I have to go to the bathroom, but this is a good point. While we're away, can we get video of the immediate aftermath, like the crowd right there, the video of the guy removing the camera cartridges as well, the SD cards, and then also video of them carrying his body to the truck, and we'll have that queued up ready to roll, and we'll go through the next steps of it. All right? All right, we'll be right back. All right, we're back. So, Baron, you were just saying something. Did you have something off-air to go back around to some of the sound conversation, the dynamics of that that we were talking about earlier? Yeah, when he was talking about sound, he said one of the first things he would do as an investigator is show up and ask people what they heard. And we ran a whole montage of people, witnesses. He wants you to slide that way a little bit. Oh, I'm sorry. Have you? Home of the save. Join for just $20 at BJ's.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months. Open soon. BJ's, home of the save. Welcome back, frickin' frack. Welcome to the jungle, ABC Wednesdays. Abbott is back. It's going to be the best year yet. Thank you. Now we can finally. Turn this up. And everyone's going wild. Y'all think you run this school, but you don't. It's going great. Abbott Elementary. Anything can happen in the jungle. Right, guys? All new Wednesdays on ABC and stream next day on Hulu. He ran a whole, we ran a whole montage of witnesses that were on camera and they all said they heard a firework or a firecracker or a pop. I talked to a student at UVU the other day and I asked him the same question. What'd you hear? What did it sound like? And he said, it honestly sounded like a balloon popped. And I was like, well, where were you? And he said, I was 10 feet to Charlie's left. He said, I was like two or three rows up, maybe 15 feet. Um, and I said, you didn't hear like a loud boom, like a rifle boom. He said, no, I think he was over there. He was to Charlie's left, to our right looking at him. Um, and he said, I just heard a pop. I said, did you hear like a, a boom, boom, you know? Like something you'll hear if you're down range, you'll hear the crack and then you'll hear the boom behind it. And he said, no, there was no second sound. It was just a loud pop, like a balloon. Um, and all the different people that said they thought someone was shooting off a firework or a firecracker. Is that what you would expect with a 30 out six? Yeah. Oh, okay. With a 30 out six. Well, uh, again, it all depends on where you're positioned relative to it and where the shooter, if it is someone shooting a 30 out six, where they are positioned relative to the rest of the crowd, I I'm, I'd be very curious if, uh, um, because you know, there's, there have been cases out there where they have, uh, audio people that actually come in and do my audio mapping, you know, cases like this feds have done it before, you know, what could you hear? And other thing that there's so many, there's so many dynamics that can impact the way you hear things at a scene in this case, if you got somebody to send an elevated position, how is that sound, uh, going to disperse into the air, uh, as opposed to being flat on a flat range, if you're firing a rifle, um, where you can hear the concussion of it, you know, kind of traveling out at that moment in time. So it's, it, and this is such an odd setup again, uh, got to tell y'all if it, um, if I was, and I'm not never want to be, but just, you know, and everybody can Monday morning, we're back, this is not the position I would want my guy in, um, because it is a bowl. I mean, it's a death trap down there looking up at the, at the watchtower. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's a, it's a horrible, horrible circumstance to be in. You're not alone in that. Cause most of his people that have gone on the record said when he walked in, they were like, I don't like all these roofs up here. No. And why in the hell they, you don't have people up there, you know, walking about and doing in, of course, these questions have come. Come up in other cases, you know, relative Butler and all these sorts of things. And, uh, speaking of direction of sound, he has a video, this, this is a video. You can see the people still running away and dispersing. So this was seconds afterwards. Okay. These people, the one you sent him. Yeah. That's the one I just sent him. These people are standing just to position you, um, just to position you. These people are standing between the low C center and the tent. Gotcha. They are on the, on the, on the ledge directly in front of them. So if, if, if the shot was 138 yards, these people are maybe 20 yards in front of the alleged shot. And so. All right, let's play. The shot came from down there. Shot came from down there. That's insane. That's insane. Yeah, so the, the shot, the alleged shot would have come from behind the perspective of this camera. They're pointing down towards the tent and saying the shot came from down there. Um, you know, I, I, again, there's no one single piece of evidence I look at and say that was not a 30 out six from the roof, but I see something like that and those are eyewitnesses, you know, immediately, I mean, these are basically excited utterances and they're saying the shot came from down there, down there. Is there a way that I'm really unfair? I'm familiar with the science of sound and what it can bounce off of in a situation like this. Is there a way that because of the buildings around there and the nature of the fishbowl atmosphere, that the sound could have traveled? So again, you're not, you don't know it's coming either. So you're reacting to it. So you have to try to remember it afterwards, but they are instantly recording this, which is great because it's their instant memory. Is there a way that sound could have traveled in such a way that it reflects off some sort of walling or building that could make it appear like it went from somewhere else? I mean, it's certainly, you know, it's certainly something that's, uh, you have to entertain, um, again, I keep going back to Kennedy and you think about there in the buildings, of course, there in Dealey Plaza that are surrounding that area are a lot higher and that's going to impact the way that sound is dispersed in this environment, but you still have structures. It's not like you're out on the open prairie here. Okay. So yeah, all of that has to be factored in. Even, even the people have to be factored in because I submit to you that if you have a fixed point of an origin of sound, if you've got nobody down there and you've got 3000 people down there, even the presence of human bodies is going to impact the way the sound is going to travel dependent upon where the point of origin is. If it's down the ground, okay, it's going to disperse differently than if it's, you know, superior to everybody else, in my opinion, but you know, what do I know? I'm not a sound engineer. When we brought that up in the break, you also mentioned though, like the Las Seis Letras and their pager operation, referring to Mossad and like how that would have worked from like, I think you're referring to it from, was that from a sound perspective you were talking about that? No, I was just, no, I was, I was talking about how savage it is. Like when just the, the pagers, you know, um, when you see, and the one that stands out in my mind is the guy. I think he's. He, he looks like he's in a grocery store. I think he's adjacent to like a fruit, you know, like fruit bins and all that sort of stuff. And when this thing detonates, it's very violent, tremendous amount of smoke and all this sort of thing. Yeah, we can't show that to you, but we can watch it in here. Okay. So they're in the store. I don't want to watch it. How did they cut away? Oh, did they cut away before? Well, no, because it gave me a warning before the video. They clipped it out anyway. And they took it out. Yeah, for the best. Okay. But you were saying, Joseph. Yeah, it's just, you know, that just referring to that itself, uh, you know, nothing relative to audio. I was just merely talking about what a violent, violent event that was. And you can see everybody in that space and it's a very tight space, um, you know, reacting to that. Um, and you'll have that kind of concussive event that goes forward. You know, in a contained area like that, you know, you know, in the, whatever that is, a bodega or whatever, whatever the hell that is when this thing detonates. Um, and it's, it's very impressive, you know, to see it, uh, just physically viewing it. You can kind of see that cloud and that burst like that. And that guy reacts very violently. That's the, the victim right there. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You can see him totally. Even the hat, you know, the hat flies. all these sorts of things. just thought of this actually because deep we pulled up a bunch of videos that we're going to be referring to in a few minutes here on the break there's another one though the side profile of charlie that shows the back of his shirt reaction i'm talking about and i believe there's a chain back there as well that lifts up that lifts up as well can we get that from a from a timing perspective and while you're doing that let's talk about one other thing baron you have discussed publicly a picture that you are in possession of that you had a chance to show joseph as well which i'll let you describe past this but it at least shows charlie's body sometime shortly after this and on the shirt there is i think what you described as dead space meaning like there's blood and then a bunch of space where there's not blood about right deep can you do camera one for this right here so there's a bunch of space about right here where there's not blood and then blood up here blood down here right and you were and i was too what what appears to be blood what appears that's right he's learning he's learning there you go gold star man what appears to be blood but that that struck me as weird and it struck you as weird what about you no no oh well going back to my example of the self-harm people you know with firearms unaliving thank you um when and i'm just talking about from that perspective what we see relative to blood deposition and in you know one of the areas that we kind of dance in in forensics is is blood deposition blood splatter you know that sort of thing so um when you'll have somebody that's in a position and i'm not referring to charlie here i'm referring in general all right so you can have absent space and it's a good pickup because it's a question i've actually got an image that i show in my class of a guy that was in this position he's got blood down his legs he's got blood around his collar and then but he laid back on a bed and then there's nothing here and this is he bled profusely all right but there's that initial blast where it kind of poured you know poured onto his legs poured onto but this area was protected it had specific margins to it and you can appreciate that sometimes with blood deposition and that explains it it all depends on the attitude physical attitude of the subject that you're talking about where they were positioned and again people don't think about this your clothes move independent of your body they do not move they do not move in concert with your body to the degree that they're like a second skin on your body they they're going to arrange depending upon how they're physically constructed how they're how you're dressed are they is it tucked in is it out you know all these kind of dynamics play into it so it might move in the same direction but the timing may be yeah it's going to be completely different because you've got your body's rotating on one axis and the shirt is is not keeping up with it so okay dave do we have that video the side profile one okay so again this is not something we can show on screen but you guys if you follow the case you've probably seen this online but let's just play this real quick just for us in here so this is at the point of impact you can see obviously the back of his head where his hair meets the neck totally should be in this position on the shock of entry the shirt almost in concert on the frame changes positions too but it changes at the top so like if i'm looking at the back yes there's movement in where the shirt is on the upper back but when i look up at where the trap meets the neck it moves profusely right there in i'm going to say eyeballing at about a 25 degree upwards direction so seeing as the bullet is fired from technically above him at 138 yards as they say is that strange that it would that the neck and shirt are moving almost like in an upward direction like that as opposed to online yeah i couldn't say because because of the dynamicism of this and that shirt is also anchored in the back where he's leaning back like this do you see that so it's anchored it's kind of held in that position it really doesn't change position there so how is that energy going to transfer about or how is it going to translate into an appearance to the cloth or the fabric of the shirt as as this round is allegedly striking the body i find this shot tickly uh let me rephrase that i find this imagery particularly fascinating because of what you're seeing relative to the anatomical changes uh sure anatomical changes yeah well you can see the neck actually protrudes a bit there not a bit significantly it pulls away posteriorly posterior right you can see even the hairline changes there how does that not have an exit wound if it changes that profusely i have no idea the energy transfer if it if it did in fact you know um as baron had pointed out earlier which is fascinating relative to what they're saying about c2 through c7 yeah um an incredible level of violence internal violence there um and it the skin is reacting to that wave of energy that's going through there and laura only knows i i would love to know to what degree well first off specifically what was what vertebral body was actually impacted like specifically because you can get this kind of peripheral fracturing that takes place because of a concussive event you know where little hairline fractures and all this but which vertebral body did it actually slam into if that's what they're saying you know with c23 c7 and how is that um how is that affecting externally the skin there and and the the hair itself is standing up yeah that's it looks like it's being blown it does it really does like it looks like a rush of air is driving the back of his hair yes it does and um the and the skin actually billows as well you can see it what do you mean by bill well the diameter of the of the neck of the neck if you go inferior to the right ear okay and then posterior downward like this the elasticity the elasticity of skin has always fascinated me relative to things i've seen happen to human bodies um how it'll extend and then it'll uh retract again after that and then it'll go back to the normal way of life and then it'll go back to the normal way of life the fascia is even uh impacted and affected and it anchors you know it anchors our skin in place right over the surface you know you've got the dermis and then you've got subcu fat and then the fascia is beneath that it kind of lays over the musculature back there you were talking about those traps right there right yeah anything else there baron you want to clarify the necklace does that does a necklace snapping brother i'm sorry i cannot my eyes are so bad i cannot even see is there any way deep is there any way you could expand that for me because i can't appreciate yeah so you'll see a flash right above his shirt over his right trap right there okay yeah so his necklace it's got a wave in it well it snapped yeah it snapped it's a very hardy yeah yeah it's it you can kind of see it right over the front of his neck but um like between his neck and his between his collar and his chin you can see the neck and the necklace then wraps in the succeeding all the way around so it obviously broke yeah um is that something you see consistently with people wearing necklaces they're shot in the neck and it it has again it all depends on the caliber of the necklace i've i've had i've had a lot of cases involving people wearing very heavy chains over the course of my career and the the narrow the diameter or the caliber of the metal they become more more fragile or more susceptible to an impact most of the time when i see them though when i've seen them um the thing is bent and twisted and that's because a round passed through the necklace as opposed to or maybe a fragment of ground or um if if if a round is passing through like what we refer to as a um an intermediate target like if you have rounds that come through a wall which i've never seen before i've never seen a round that comes through a wall which happens frequently you know with particularly with high-powered uh weapons uh you know uh ak-47s those things these sorts of things that have this tremendous muzzle velocity you can still retain enough energy that you know you'll have necklaces broken i've seen that happen but from a direct impact yeah generally from a direct i've never seen it like in a concussive i'm not saying it couldn't happen it's very well possible but from a concussive event you know i don't think i've ever seen one snap yeah it looks like it snapped down by you know it had a charm on it that was hanging down by his sternum so baron's pointing at right camera one let me do baron's pointing right here it's just below where his camera is so just want to point that out you're pointing right here right there yeah so he had a cross charm that was hanging there and it looks like that's where it broke and it it stumped a lot of people because they say how do you take a round of the neck and then your necklace breaks in the middle of your chest and then slings over your head so i figured i'd ask you since i had you did uh do we know that i'm assuming they collected that necklace they did not they did not erica kirk is currently wearing it a repaired version of it lovely they did not collect it that was actually in the brian harpole sean ryan interview or no maybe that was frank turek that talked about finding it is that the pastor guy yeah erica apparently was calling asking about the necklace nobody knew why no no nobody i knew identified a necklace with charlie as that was like the identifying characteristic of charlie um maybe a microphone but not a necklace but that's that's one of the major problems i have with high profile cases is that and again i'll go back and return to what i said earlier when you start to treat when you start to treat cases differently than other cases that's problematic yeah because from an evidentiary standpoint the necklace has value um because if it broke guess who i want to take a look at it i want to mark people to take a look at it i want the tool mark people with the crime crime lab i give me your opinion yeah because again ruling in ruling out you know no i'm not gonna give a necklace back to somebody that was around the neck of an individual that has been publicly executed no you got your mind how about the mic she's got the mic she's got the mic in a in a like like like a fucking lombardi trophy in some glass box that she takes to events that you pay ten thousand bucks a fucking plate to donate and it's but it's still got the blood on it by the way but like don't you think that should probably be in the chain every everything there thank you nice has evidentiary you're gonna get me spun up now play everything there everything there has evidentiary value that chair is particularly has particular value oh i didn't even think of that you're talking about the chair that tarrell farnsworth stood in to get the camera well i mean people are going to do what they do in the immediate yeah i don't necessarily what's the evidentiary value of the chair oh well i'll tell you specifically tammy regularly hauls stuff to her kids at college that's why she shops at bj's wholesale club saving up to 25 off grocery store prices beef jerky microwave meals laundry pods even they can't screw up have you met my kids and with bj's gas she gets there for less they call me the road warrior this is your home road warrior mom home of the save join for just 20 at bjs.com mosquito and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bjs home of the save welcome back freaking frack welcome to the jungle abc wednesdays abbott is back it's gonna be the best year yet thank you now we can finally turn this up and everyone's going wild y'all think you run this school but you don't it's going great abbott elementary anything can happen in the job all new wednesdays on abc and stream next day on hulu joseph not the director a little bit but when you're talking just a little bit more on an angle just so people here can kind of how's that that's that better okay that's perfect i'm sorry i've got it you're doing great i've got to direct my eyes i'm gonna look at you okay no no i want you to look at baron but just like keep it where you're kind of like in between us that kind of thing i want to tell you look at d i love your haircut i love your haircut by the way too it looks good man thank you you got a haircut since yesterday didn't you no no i just thought yesterday i forgot to talk behind my ears it's okay it's a bad word okay so mark it uh so that chair has specific value do you know why no okay think about how we're sitting right now everybody at home think about how you're sitting okay the elevation that you're talking about the position of the body of his body comes into play here and that's significant because the platform on which that chair is positioned should have been assessed without him in it in that position or wherever they found it because you can never like let's say the chair got kicked aside or kicked away it did you cannot go back and place it in the exact position however there's an accounting that has to take place with that specific chair because even if that chair came off the line at the manufacturer with a hundred other chairs that chair is unique to itself the measurement from the rear of the legs to the back back here and how does his body fit into that chair what position is he in because you know we're talking here one of the big questions here is trajectory right you know we're talking about is it a flat trajectory is it an elevated position whatever it is that chair has significant value and it can have evidence that it's a flat trajectory and it can have evidence on it as well blood deposition these sorts of we don't know what's on the chair you know for all i know somebody's i don't know where it is now i have no idea i don't know if it's been you know if you go to a university i can go to my university and we've got stacks of chairs everywhere they just take the chair and stack it back up or did the state police or whoever it was did they collect that chair that's his chair okay well and his platform yeah and did they collect it and did they hold on to it or did it go back into the rotation or be thrown away yeah and that's a problem that's a that's so who would that fall on would that fall on the police oh hell yeah the people actually examining the crime scene yeah once once people are absent this scene get your ass out of there and i'm referring to any civilians that are around there because if you're not part of the investigative team you're a civilian period end of paragraph all of that stuff should have been secured at that particular time and this is not me monday morning quarterbacking you know it's not me this is baseline stuff this is like ground like this is something that you would teach a freshman class in forensic science 101. so what would it tell you if there was no chair and no platform and everything had been removed well it's going to tell me that any kind of measurements that you take where you're trying to pull trajectories your data is potentially skewed yeah yeah you're good i have coffee for you right there and you've got it look at that he's on it man he just floats in and out my man that's it so all right so chair is a problem also this is not an adjustable chair as far as i can tell this is like a wireframe kind of right yeah so it's a static chair imagine if they put that back in rotation jesus christ i think it's more likely it was thrown away but maybe the police have it i don't know we don't know no i hope they do and all of the surface area there uh deep is there any way you can there's one yeah hold it right there if you can't if you don't mind just freeze it right there actually we can put that on screen too because there's no bullet right now youtube there's no bullet no blood no anything we're in concert he's not pressing play on the video thank you okay so do you see the um and um forgive me baron i'm i'm because i i don't know what's the composition of the surface that that this thing is contained it's a carpeted indoor outdoor kind of so it was it was a grass base and then there was a platform an elevated platform that was um that's what i'm referring to right here this the surface of this platform what is that it was it was a it was a plastic platform with a i believe a metal exterior around it and then metal legs that went down so all of that surface surrounding that chair moving to his left for any of that area right there has value to it because you've got blood deposition there now you say well why is that important well it's very important because you want to demonstrate you want to retain that from an evidentiary standpoint to you can like you could not go people ask this question frequently when you have like a really uh bloody scene they want to know if you can approximate the volume of blood that will spill you can't that's an empirical impossibility but you can demonstrate it visually to show where the deposition is and this is not this is not a sight scene to show where the deposition is and this is not this is not a sightseeing tool this is something that you hold on to and you want to hold on to everything this is something significant this is where a homicide and we can all agree it's a homicide this is where a homicide took place all right if it was on a carpeted surface in an apartment i want that section of carpet yeah um i've gone into places where we've completely pulled up linoleum all right i know i have colleagues that have pulled up uh ceramic tile before and held on to it it's pretty significant piece of information here that you're retaining and so that in and of itself is important but also the structure of this platform along with the chair the height of the platform the underlying ground the topography of it well they dug that up and paved it right yeah and so no i'm just saying that i wasn't even going there yet no no forgive me but i know i'm working the scene they didn't have anybody hooked up on charges yet everything there has value to it yeah every single thing i'm not saying that you go out and you need to keep those the railing that's keeping everybody back you don't you don't want that but i'll tell you i won't the closest radius i want the top i want that that canopy i want to see this i want to know what do you want to see there i don't know if there's blood deposition up there i want to know if i've got anything above him could that rule out could all of that that you just described rule out the explosive microphone theory or any of the other theories because you know if you said the shirt you might be able to test rule out what about the chair what about the platform you're sitting on what about the tent yeah i suppose that it could because with an explosive event you're going to have a residue that and um you know when an explosive event takes place it you know how i talked about the powder a little while ago and acts like talcum powder it's a very violent event in the in the immediate but you've got this particulate matter that kind of showers down on everything it's not it's because a lot of stuff is it has no aerodynamic uh characteristics or uh not no but it limited limp thank you very much it has limited aerodynamic uh characteristics and so gravity you know it's just going to fall and it's going to settle and so you want to test these areas if you look at you know even you know even overseas when there's been explosive events you know uh just without our troopers that have been you know deployed all over the world uh when they you know they have teams that go out there and they do post-blast assessments relative to all this uh you had it with boston marathon you know all these things you can go out and you can do these samplings of everything well that's something that people are thinking about and i don't know that they were thinking about this at the time you could either rule it in rule it out certainly but for my purposes just from the deposition that appears to be gunshot related um i'm going to want to know about the impact the surrounding area how blood is deposited i'm going to want to see that chair his clothes and not just the shirt i'm going to see the pants as well his shoes his socks anything that's on him so would it and again i asked this earlier would it fall below the standard in your opinion if the chair the platform and all this isn't preserved and it was just cleaned off and thrown away or put back in rotation yeah way below the standard yes and where would it be stored just from a layman's perspective in an evidence room somewhere and again it all depends on who's processing so anything you identify anything you identify as evidence you don't think should have been turned back over to tpusa to store hell no okay no are they an investigative agency do they have prosecutorial powers you know because we're talking about it again let's all kind of come back i'm not being smart no i know let's all come back center mass here it's a homicide investigation right it should not be treated any differently than any other homicide investigation out there period end of paragraph now here's one thing about this and we mentioned this earlier but now you're really bringing into context when you talk about all the different pieces here and things you would have wanted in a perfect world preserved or not touched at the time a lot of homicide most homicides that occur you know it's in a more secluded place a lot of them or at the very least it's not in front of 2 000 people yeah you don't have an audience you don't have an audience like that so in this case you have a public event a major speaker chaos immediately ensuing so naturally there's going to be some things that are not treated perfectly well right away just because of the cascading effect of so many people there that said once his body and i'll come back that video with karen to the truck thief in a little bit but once his body is taken out of there and people begin to disperse a little bit and leave let's start with the video of that we have def of the camera guy removing the camera sd cards that were behind charlie right here is this the kind of situation where there should be cops trained to be way closer to the perimeter number one and number two not letting anyone get into a space like in an ideal world yeah but if you're talking about campus police that are there that have limited manpower i would imagine at this point in um baron correct me please if i'm wrong here um i'm assuming that there are no other law enforcement assets around this area other than campus police so not exactly the the guy in the blue shirt okay in the background and there's another guy in a red hat that keeps ducking in and out yep those are uh officers from cscs okay so we're playing this guy back there in the far back right so for them they understand at this point now i'm thinking about crowd control and all this stuff um like your boy that just walked into frame there that's pouring water over the back of his neck or whatever the hell he was doing he doesn't need to be in that space period and i don't know whether he's law enforcement i know for a fact the other two are this is nine minutes later yeah he doesn't need to be there period yeah that guy doesn't nobody needs to be within that area because i can think about okay here's the thing about crime scenes and we teach this over and over again you can always set your perimeter up at a very distal uh distal point okay all the way around right you can first off you can do that and then you can contract it where you're bringing it back to center however so get back get back get back as far you want as many people away and you're going to quadrant that entire area off what when you run into trouble is when you only focus on that and you you know you set your tape up or whatever it is you create this this boundary in that little area well you know as an attorney if i go back and i move that tape guess what happens you can say well this was not controlled out here that's right this has been contaminated you know at this point in time so you always start big and then you contract after that so even though they weren't uvu police the fact that they're uniform not uh plainclothes officers carrying badges and guns they know that this crime scene should be sort of sacrosanct in this moment yeah i teach at the state police academy in alabama that's basic training for academy graduates that if they if they're you know post-certified police officers in the state of utah which i'm they are again i'm assuming they are they know that that's a critical area right there you don't want to let anybody into that area specifically but even though there's an employee those people up on that amphitheater area in the back in the back and i'm just throwing this out there just for consideration in an ideal world and again giving them a little bit of grace because they ain't got a lot of manpower all right i think that we can both we can all acknowledge that okay because there's some things that are just it's it's not possible to facilitate however the stands up there you see i don't care if you left your book bag your phone whatever it is you ain't getting back in there period because i don't know what value any of that stuff nobody knows what value it has at that critical moment in time right you're pushing everybody back you're locking it down and you're going to keep it locked down and uh so you think having an employee milling around the area the immediate adjacent area uh in terrell farms was his name but you think that falls below the standard yes it is okay yeah they should you know you get out of here unless unless he is a principal witness at that point in time and they need to speak with him he still shouldn't be right there you come here you stand right here do not move from this spot yeah don't walk around don't pour water don't pour water on the surface please the crime scene i beg you that's that's a no-go so you don't you don't want to because you're introducing something into this now and understand how i'm using this word this is a pristine crime scene at this point in time or should be it's pristine in the sense that it's untouched at this point it has not been processed you want to take any element that you possibly can away from this it's going to impact how any of the structures are set up or were left behind or whatever the case might be well i'll proffer that the guy walking around talking to those two cops grab the chair set it up under the camera took the cameras down moved them set them on the table uh removed some object from it we believe it's the sd card that's his story removes something from the camera and then walks off is that does that fall below the standard and allow that to happen can i play that on a loop yeah that's i just wanted that on the record yeah that's on the right oh lord oh my god yeah uh yeah that that would be below record the below the standard yeah is there any if if you were the responding official on this scene here right now this is nine minutes afterwards and it's still somewhat pristine minus water boy over there when once you begin to examine all the things you just walked us through the chair the the ceiling the canopy above him the splatter the area around it and and let's say someone also shows you the video so you've now seen that and you know the shot came from up there as you are looking out from the vantage point of charlie what are you most looking for at that time like what are you most looking for at that time like what are you most looking for at that time like what are What are the key elements that you want to take note of to try to solve where this may have come from? I'm going to start concentrically and then work eccentrically. In English. I'm going to look at those things in my immediate area and then extend out my field of vision incrementally. And again, in a perfect world, if I were like the sole guy that was there, I'd be saying, send every post-certified officer that you have available to my location. We've got to lock this thing down. Matter of fact, if there is currently a police academy class in session with cadets, send them out here. We'll direct them to set up a perimeter and face outward and don't let anybody through. Was there ever a point where something like that happened too late, 40 minutes later or something like that? They did establish. A pretty good perimeter around the top of the amphitheater, like the last concrete step. That's a great spot to have it. But it was 20 plus minutes. Well, again, going to plain devil. I don't know if I'm playing devil's advocate. It's just practicality. I've been out on cases before where, I'm sorry guys, there's some kind of cord or something here. There we go. I hope I didn't unplug anything. where we, we just, we didn't have the ability, you know, to cover and, and, you know, who nobody anticipates. You can go through all of the, um, you know, through all of the emergency management stuff that they send you through, which you have critical, critical events and you have mass casual events and you can, you know, tabletop it. It's what they call, you know, you go in and you tabletop all this stuff, but until it actually happens, you don't know how it's going to, you know, how can you plan for this scenario? Well, you always try to plan for the very worst that you possibly can. It's almost like, you know, containment where you, you can always contract it. But if you, if you ain't got the warm bodies, you ain't got the warm bodies. Do you consider the SUV that took him out in as a crime scene? Probably. Is there valuable information you could glean from accessing that SUV? Again, back to Kennedy, it's not the same as a Kennedy limousine because that's where a violent act took place. Um, it has value to me in that, uh, if I'm a law enforcement, um, or crime scene person, I don't know any of these people in his group. I don't know them. And, and, uh, if I'm, you know, working the scene, if I'm involved in this, my name's going on the report, I'd want to hold onto it until, you know, let me see the vehicle. You know, what did, what did you do? What did you do? What did you do? Where were you seated? What did you say? What were your actions? Did you remove anything? Is there anything we should be looking for in here? Now's the time to tell me right now, because I don't want to get this thing and find something on the floor that you, you didn't tell us about. So there's a come to Jesus moment, you know, where you're talking to everybody, tell us what you did. And then it's at that point in time that they can, Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clips, full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below. Hank joined BJ's wholesale club. The day he became a father of 30, I coach football. Now coach Hank saves up to 25% off grocery store prices. 50 pounds of pasta, three cases of protein bars, 75 sports drinks. And that's just pregame. He knows teamwork and BJ's knows savings. This is your home coach home of the save. Join for just $20 at BJ's.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon. Limited time offer new members only BJ's home of the save. Welcome back. Freaking frack. Welcome to the jungle. ABC Wednesdays. Abbott is back. It's going great. Abbott Elementary. Anything can happen in the jungle, right guys? All new Wednesdays on ABC and stream next day on Hulu.