Day 4: Persevering in Prayer

Hi, I'm Sister Katie, and I'm Sister Elfie, and you're listening to the Catholic Classics podcast, where we seek to grow our interior lives by learning from the church's greatest saints and teachers. Each season will read through a great work, explain its spiritual principles, and help you apply its timeless wisdom to your life. The Catholic Classics podcast is brought to you by Ascension. This season, we're reading Ascension's exclusive translation of the interior castle by St. Theresa of Avala. Today is day four, and we will be reading the second dwelling places, chapter one, a few reminders before we get started. To get your own copy of Ascension's edition of the interior castle, visit AscensionPress.com/castle. Before we get into the reading, let's take a quick look at what we're covering today. Today, St. Theresa describes for us what a soul in the second dwelling might face in terms of obstacles and the need to persevere and to grow in a deeper knowledge of the voice of God in their lives. Let's get started. The second dwelling place is chapter one. Now let us speak about the type of soul that enters the second dwelling places, and what such a soul does in them. I'd like to say only a little, for I have spoken at length on this subject elsewhere, and it would be impossible to avoid repeating much of it, for I don't remember a thing of what I said. If I could present the matter for you in a variety of ways, I know well that you wouldn't be annoyed since we never tire of books, as many as there are, that deal with it. This stage pertains to those who have already begun to practice prayer and have understood how important it is not to stay in the first dwelling places, but they still don't have the determination to remain in this second stage without turning back, for they don't avoid the occasion of sin. This failure to avoid these occasions is quite dangerous, but these persons have received a good deal of mercy, and that they sometimes do strive to escape from snakes and poisonous creatures, and they understand that it is good to avoid them. These rooms, in part, involve much more effort than do the first, even though there is not as much danger. For it now seems that souls in them recognize the dangers, and there is great hope they will enter further into the castle. I stated these rooms involve more effort, because those who are in the first dwelling places are like deaf mutes, and thus the difficulty of not speaking is more easily endured by them, than it is by those who hear but cannot speak. Yet not for this reason does one have greater desire to be deaf, for after all it is a wonderful thing to hear what is being said to us. So these persons are able to hear the Lord when he calls, since they are getting closer to where his majesty dwells, he is a very good neighbor. His mercy and goodness are so bountiful, whereas we are occupied in our pastimes, business affairs, pleasures, and worldly buying and selling, and still falling into sin and rising again. These beasts are so poisonous and they are present so dangerous and noisy, that it would be a wonder if we kept from stumbling and falling over them. Yet this Lord desires intensely that we love him and seek his company. So much so that from time to time he calls us to draw near him, and his voice is so sweet, the poor soul dissolves and not doing immediately what he commands. Thus as I say, hearing his voice is a greater trial than not hearing it. I don't mean that these appeals and calls are like the ones I shall speak of later on, but they come through words spoken by other good people, or through sermons, or through what is read in good books, or through the many things that are heard and by which God calls, or through illness and trials, or also through a truth that he teaches during the brief moments we spend in prayer. However, Luke warmed these moments may be, God esteems them highly. And use sisters, don't underestimate this first favor, nor should you become disconsolate if you don't respond at once to the Lord. His majesty knows well how to wait many days and years, especially when he sees perseverance and good desires. This perseverance is most necessary here, one always gains much through perseverance, but the attacks made by the devils in a thousand ways afflict the soul more in these rooms than in the previous ones. In the previous ones, the soul was deaf and dumb, at least it heard very little and resisted less, as one who has partly lost hope of conquering. Here, the intellect is more alive and the faculties more skilled. The blows from the artillery strike in such a way that the soul cannot fail to hear. It is in this stage that the devils represent these snakes, worldly things, and the temporal pleasures of the present as though almost eternal. They bring to mind the esteem one has in the world, one's friends and relatives, one's health, when there's thought of penitential practices for the soul that enters this dwelling place always begins wanting to practice some penance and a thousand other obstacles. O Jesus, what an uproar the devils instigate here, and the afflictions of the poor soul, it doesn't know whether to continue or to return to the first room. Reason for its part shows the soul that is mistaken in thinking that these things of the world are not worth anything when compared to what it is aiming after. Faith, however, teaches it about where it will find fulfillment. The memory shows it where all these things end, holding before it the death of those who found great joy in them. Through the memory, it sees how some have suffered sudden death, how quickly they are forgotten by all, some whom it had known in great prosperity are under the ground and their graves are walked upon. This soul itself has often passed by these graves, it reflects that many worms are swarming over the corpses and it thinks about numerous other things. The will is inclined to love after seeing such countless signs of love, it would want to repay something, it especially keeps in mind how this true lover never leaves it, accompanying it and giving it life and being. Then the intellect helps it realize that it couldn't find a better friend, even where it to live for many years, that the whole world is filled with falsehood, and that so too these joys the devil gives it are filled with trials, cares and contradictions. The intellect tells the soul of its certainty that outside this castle, neither security nor peace will be found, that it should avoid going about to strange houses, since its own is so filled with blessings to be enjoyed if at once. The intellect will ask who it is that finds everything he needs in his own house, and especially has a guest who will make him lord over all goods provided, that he wills to avoid going astray like the prodigal son and eating the husks of swine. These are reasons for conquering the devils, but own my Lord and my God how the whole world's habit of getting involved in vanities, videates everything. Our faith is so dead that we desire what we see more than what faith tells us, and indeed we see only a lot of misfortune in those who go after these visible vanities, but these poisonous things we are dealing with are the cause of the misfortune, for just as all is poisoned if a vapor bites someone and the wound swells, so we will be poisoned if we do not watch ourselves. Clearly many remedies are necessary to cure us, and God is favoring us a good deal if we do not die from the wound. Certainly the soul undergoes great trials here. If the devil especially realizes that it has all it needs in its temperament and habits to advance far, he will gather all hell together to make the soul go back outside. Ah, my Lord, your help is necessary here. Without it one can do nothing. In your mercy do not consent to allow this soul to suffer deception and give up what was begun. In lighten it that it may see how all its good is within this castle and that it may turn away from bad companions. It's a wonderful thing for a person to talk to those who speak about this interior castle. To draw near not only [BLANK_AUDIO] only to those seen to be in these rooms where he is, but to those known to have entered the ones closer to the center. Conversation with these latter will be a great help to him, and he can converse so much with them that they will bring him to where they are. Let the soul always heed the warning not to be conquered. If the devil sees that it has the strong determination to lose his life and repose, and all that he offers it, rather than return to the first room, he will abandon it much more quickly. Let the soul be manly, and not like those soldiers who knelt down to drink before going into battle. I don't remember with whom, but be determined to fight with all the devils and realize there are no better weapons than those of the cross. Even though I've said this at other times, it's so important that I repeated here. It is that souls shouldn't be thinking about consolations at this beginning stage. It would be a very poor way to start building so precious and great and edifice. If the foundation is on sand, the whole building will fall to the ground. They'll never finish being dissatisfied and tempted. These are not the dwelling places where it reigns mana, those life further ahead, where a soul finds in the mana every taste it desires, for it wants only what God wants. It's an amusing thing that even though we still have a thousand impediments and imperfections, and our virtues have hardly begun to grow, and please God, they may have begun. We are not yet ashamed to seek spiritual delights and prayer or to complain about dryness. May this never happen to you, sisters. Embrace the cross your spouse has carried, and understand that this must be your task. Let the one who can do so suffer more for him, and she will be rewarded that much more. As for other favors, if the Lord should grant you one, thank him for it as you would for something freely added on. It will seem to you that you are truly determined to undergo exterior trials, provided that God favors you interiorly. His majesty knows best what is suitable for us. There's no need for us to be advising him about what he should give us, for he can rightly tell us that we don't know what we're asking for. The whole aim of any person who is beginning prayer, and don't forget this because it's very important, should be that he work and prepare himself with determination and every possible effort to bring his will into conformity with God's will. Be certain that, as I shall say later, the greatest perfection attainable along the spiritual path lies in this conformity. It is the person who lives in more perfect conformity, who will receive more from the Lord, and be more advanced on this road. Don't think that in what concerns perfection there is some mystery, or things unknown, or still to be understood. For in perfect conformity to God's will lies all our good. Now then, if we err in the beginning, desiring that the Lord do our will at once, and lead us according to what we imagine, what kind of stability will this edifice have? Let us strive to do what lies in our power, and guard ourselves against these poisonous little reptiles. For the Lord often desires that dryness, and bad thoughts afflict and pursue us, without our being able to get rid of them. Sometimes he even permits these reptiles to bite us, so that afterward we may know how to guard ourselves better, and that he may prove whether we are greatly grieved by having offended him. Thus, if you should at times fall, don't become discouraged and stop striving to advance. For even from this fall, God will draw out good, as does the seller of an antidote who drinks some poison in order to test whether his antidote is effective. Even if we didn't see our misery, or the great harm that a dissipated life does to us, through any other means, then through this assault that we endure for the sake of being brought back to recollection, that would be enough. Can there be an evil greater than that of being ill-eddies in our own house? What hope can we have of finding rest outside of ourselves if we cannot be at rest within? We have so many great and true friends and relatives, which are our faculties, with whom we must always live, even though we may not want to. But from what we feel, these seem to be worrying against us because of what our vices have done to them. Peace, peace, the Lord said my sisters, and he urged his apostles so many times. Well, believe me, if we don't obtain and have peace in our own house, we'll not find it outside. Let this war be ended. Through the blood he shed for us, I ask those who have not begun to enter within themselves to do so. And those who have begun, not to let the war make them turn back. Let these latter reflect that a relapse is worse than a fall. They already see their loss, let them trust in the mercy of God, and not at all in themselves, and they will see how his majesty brings them from the dwelling places of one stage to those of another, and settles them in a land where these wild animals cannot touch or tire them, for where they themselves will bring all these animals into subjection and scoff at them. And they shall enjoy many more blessings than one can desire, blessings even in this life, I mean. Since as I've said in the beginning, I've written to you about how you should conduct yourselves in these disturbances, set up here by the devil, and how you cannot begin to recollect yourselves by force, but only by gentleness. If your recollection is going to be continual, I will not say anything else here than that, in my opinion, it is very important to consult persons with experience. For you will be thinking that you are seriously failing to do some necessary thing. Provided that we don't give up, the Lord will guide everything for our benefit, even though we may not find someone to teach us. There is no other remedy for this evil of giving up prayer than to begin again. Otherwise, the soul will gradually lose more each day, and please God that it will understand this fact. Someone could think that if turning back is so bad, it would be better never to begin, but to remain outside the castle. I have already told you at the beginning, and the Lord Himself tells you, that anyone who walks in danger perishes in it, and that the door of entry to this castle is prayer. Well, now it is foolish to think that we will enter heaven without entering into ourselves, coming to know ourselves, reflecting on our misery and what we owe God, and begging Him often for mercy. The Lord Himself says, "No one will ascend to my Father, but through me." I don't know if He says it this way, I think He does, and whoever sees me sees my Father. Well, if we never look at Him or reflect on what we owe Him and the death He suffered for us, I don't know how we'll be able to know Him or do works in His service. And what value can faith have without works and without joining them to the merits of Jesus Christ are good, or who will awaken us to love this Lord? May it please His majesty to give us understanding of how much we cost Him, of how the servant is no greater than His master, and that we must work in order to enjoy His glory, and we need to pray for this understanding, so that we aren't always entering into temptation. Okay, so here we are once again. We welcome back our friend, sister Elfie, to join us as we head into the second dwelling place. This is the shortest of all the dwelling places, one chapter. Praise Jesus. There's hope. Yep, Saint Teresa says what she needs to say, and she says, "Let's move on. Let's keep going." Amen. So as we're in this second dwelling place, sister Elfie, what are some of the recommendations that Saint Teresa has for us? I think the first part when they read this chapter that little synopsis, you know, it's a chapter one, it's because the importance of perseverance if one is to reach the final dwelling place, and it's just a beautiful reminder for us. In our spiritual journey, that's a big virtue that we need in being able to get up. You know, I was like looking it up, what that terminology of perseverance, you know, it's like amazing, like, perseverance, like through, and in severed, it's like steadfast, you know, like when we want to go somewhere we're going to persevere until we get there. And a beautiful part that Avala even was about the great war of the devil will wage here, you know, the key, you're moving forward, like the soul is trying to, they say, like, I want to be closer to God. And of course, the devil's upset, oh, no, no, no, we're going to discourage you. And you see all your faults and tell all of the slice and stuff. But importance is that we are going to get on this track and be able to know that if we persevere, and we're going to talk about a little bit of the tools, how to persevere in this dwelling, that this is what God is inviting us in. You know, I think that's beautiful. There's another said that, like, when you persevere, this infinite abiding strictly, and that word abiding is like very important, that you are in midst of God, you know, you're now trying to get into that place where God is, you know, and that's, I think that was powerful. Yeah. I, you know, as I was reading this chapter, it brought a couple, a couple images or time periods of my life to mind. You know, I thought of myself as a high school student going through my family, we grew up in the faith going to mass, faith was always a part of my life. But high school, like I think for a lot of people was when I was first trying to make it my own, right? And those experiences of having a lot of fervor to try to follow Jesus and connect with Him in prayer. And then, like you said, facing kind of my own short comings and weaknesses or a failure and becoming so discouraged that I wanted to do better and I didn't. It also made me think of a lot of I was a high school teacher teaching mostly juniors in high school and walking with them along that journey of faith too of having profound encounters with the Lord that made them want to follow and then having a struggle, having a difficulty, having a bump in the road and just immediately thinking, okay, I'm not good enough for this and becoming so discouraged and giving up. And St. Teresa basically is explaining to us in this second dwelling place, trials are going to happen. You're going to mess up because we are not perfect, right? We're humans with a lot of imperfections, right? And an original sin and free will that we don't use well and all of those things. And so a failure is going to happen. But the point that I think she makes consistently throughout this chapter is you keep going. The failure will happen. And you do what you have to do to make that failure. It's not to stay there. If you need to go to confession, go to confession. If you need to change a routine, okay, change that routine. If you need to surround yourself with better people, surround yourself with better people. But that the journey of striving to be closer to God doesn't end because I messed up. It's a journey of perseverance. That's so true. It's interesting. As young adults, you kind of find your friends that really can journey with you in faith. And I pray that for all young adults who are just to anybody to have like spiritual friends. And then entering, like just them challenging me to live better and like racing the bar of like we can do better and like living this life, being Christians, right? And I remember it is one particular moment in initial formation in one of my, your companions in the group and like struggling with something. And like all of a sudden, I'm just like, I am just so happy you're struggling in her face. I was just like, what? And I'm like, I don't even know why I said that, but I'm so sorry that you're struggling. But that profound way of like being able, even St. Paul said in Romans chapter five, you know, we, we had this whole Jubilee youth that passed year and stuff like that. And how struggles, you know, we persevere through them. And it builds character. And it allows us to truly have hope in God. And at the moment, like, it's so hard to see where God is when we're struggling. But he even speaks in our struggles. In centuries of Allah, did speak a little bit about hearing his voice that even in that, he speaks. And again, that's very important for us to also know that if you want to continue to persevere in this journey, we should know who's in charge. And like, what voice are we listening to? Yes. Yeah. I love, I love the idea of I've heard, you know, this image of Jesus as the good shepherd, right? And that I don't know if you've seen there was a meme or a, I don't know what you call it, young people today. What do you call that? But whatever on the internet that it's talking about this sheep is walking along the way, it falls into the ditch, right? The shepherd goes in and pulls it out. And then immediately after bounce, bounce back into the ditch, right? And like, that's so often I love that image because that's life. Like, I don't know, maybe it's not for everyone else, but for me, I'm bouncing back into that ditch quite often. And so how a shepherd helps the sheep to avoid those mistakes, right? When one has strayed, they take the sheep and they place them on their shoulders, right? And so that all day long as the shepherd is speaking and, you know, so that the voice of the shepherd is right there, like by the heart of the sheep, so that that sheep is just becoming so attuned to what is the voice of the shepherd. So that in the future, I know that shepherd's voice so well, I can't go astray because I won't mistake it for anything else. That's true. And so I think that's what St. Teresa is speaking about in the beginning is these events in our life that help us to know his voice. Illness sometimes is a great teacher, sorrows, but also joys and then scripture. Absolutely, right? Knowing the voice of our Lord through scripture. I think one of the things, Sister Katie, when we travel, I travel a lot and meet a lot of young people and the question they ask is like, how do I know it's God's voice, Sister? And like, how do I know I'm not making or confusing it with my voice? What you usually go to answer for that one? Well I know my voice is loud and like, you have to, you have to have to, right? That is not the voice of the Lord. The Lord is gentle and inviting. That is so true. And Teresa of St. Teresa of Avala even says in a book like his voice is so sweet, so sweet. And it's so beautiful because sometimes we want to hear his voice, but the question is, do you really want to know his voice and do you want to spend time in cultivating that, to be able to have an ear for his voice? Like definitely scripture is important. It's hard for us, sometimes different stages of life, how to hear his voice when you're struggling, right? But it's easy to hear his voice when you're in your consolation or you have, yes, exactly. But a beautiful part of St. Teresa also mentioned is like, the movements of grace within us, you know, like whenever you're watching this beautiful sunset, how can the Lord even speak in that? You know, there are no more words, but just this sense of love, this sense of beauty, the sense of truth that that's him speaking to me. You know, sometimes even like, you're just mesmerized and just like, wow, and sometimes a lot of us would say like, well, that's nice, but how do I continue to just hear his voice? And then like you said, the good shepherd, like being able to know his voice, then I am not going to listen to the other things that are not true, especially when I get discouraged about myself. I think when the biggest thing that I, you know, were the biggest critique, right? Like man, I messed up exactly. And so whenever I hear my voice, like you said, loud, there's like, I have to pause and just like, be silent and just like be able to like Lord speak to my heart. And then just like, I feel like I love you. I'm already there. Like I, I love you. And I'm giving you another chance. Okay. Like that part, like what did I deserve to have that? You know, that's a beautiful thing. But like, how about you? What do you, what's your usual go to if like, sometimes you get discouraged and you hear your voice that like, no, this is not good enough and all that. I think for me to sometimes it actually, it's, it's going back to pieces of scripture that I can kind of repeat in my mind and in my heart that like God will complete this good work. He has begun. Hey man. You know, like that's, that's me when I'm, I'm kind of, yeah, struggling and thinking like, I don't know what I'm doing. Why am I here? And then no. Okay. God will complete this good work. He has begun. And that's, it's his work. Yeah. Right. It's, it's not our. So having those, those touch points of scripture to go back to as a key to start to conform or ear or heart to the voice of God and that it doesn't have to be something super complicated. You start with the readings of the day. Yep. For you look in the assumption, ascension app for the scripture reflections, like they're, they're so many tools available to us today that spending time in Scripture consistently. And I think it's the consistency that matters the most. We fail, we fumble, we screw up a day or two, but overall that there's a consistent effort to be attuned to the Word of God in his voice in our lives. I think that's a beautiful thing, faithfulness, that consistency of just being able to like I see God is there and I want to walk towards there, I'm going to need his help and like Lord just give me the grace, you know. When we fall, we have to always remember that God has already been there and like taking your hand and just holding you, you know, and just being able to like, let's start again, you know. This consistency of like being able to just like, eventually for me and I actually, it's so true. We pray the Lord of the hours every day and like there are words already like, I just go to that one and it just gives me so much consolation and it's very true. Like three of Avela wants us to persevere in a way that you see, he will, even though you can't see it yet, but you know the end goal is there and I think that's a beautiful thing. But this invitation truly of just being faithful. Yeah. The Lord is not asking you to like, well, you didn't read the whole scripture or like, you know, I only reflected on the Psalms and whatever, but it's true, just a faithfulness and he can use so much with that one. Yeah. That's true. Very often we've created an expectation of what prayer should look like or feel like in our heads, right? And St. Teresa talks about not at this stage, not relying too much on consolations, right? And those good, warm, fuzzy feelings, which are beautiful and when God gives them to us, we rejoice in them. But a consolation doesn't equal successful prayer. Like successful prayer is happening often, most of the time, without any consolation. And so to not fall into a trap of thinking, I didn't feel warm and fuzzy. I didn't pray, right? That's not St. Teresa warns us against that. That's actually, if we only judge our prayer based on the feelings of consolation, we're building a house on sand and crumble. And when the hard times come, we're not strong enough in the interior life. So I think to this dwelling, the second dwelling, it's like, I don't know, it's like a nice little workout for the interior muscles, you know, you're, you're doing the reps. Yeah, you're, you're building strength that's going to sustain you later on. And it's going to hurt a little, right, or you're going to struggle to get that last push in whatever, but that that's where we're finding, we're finding God in that journey. And we're building strength to persevere also further in. Yes, I think just to add to that is that to encourage our friends that if there's something that you're struggling with, it means you're growing your journey with the Lord. There's a part here that St. Teresa of Avala embraced across your spouse had carried and understand that this must be your task. So for us, like, we don't want to struggle because like we wanted easy, but in the event that you're reflecting like, wow, this is tough. It means God is giving me the grace to be able to go through this and like, I'm moving a little bit closer to be united with Jesus, you know, anything that's beautiful, that's so hopeful. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. So some practical takeaways, what would you say is, is the number one practical takeaway? Definitely. Like if you haven't started it yet, just spend time in scripture. And if you don't know where to begin, start with your readings of the day. There's a reason why we have a liturgical season, right? And then it's not like going over everything. You could start with the gospel, the reading, the first reading or the song, but just like prayer for you, like something like Alexio Divina. And like, allow that one word and carry that with you throughout the whole day. You know, if you heard today, be patient or be merciful throughout, and then at the end of the day, just like, where, how did I hear your voice throughout the day? It's not just like one time, right? It's just throughout like Teresa of Avila is all about experiencing the presence of God. And those are the words that we want to continue to like build up in our mind, you know? And just have that moment to be able to just be clear about you. I think, well, just thinking on that, you know, as we're getting to know scripture, I've heard there's this excellent podcast that exists somewhere in, in the world called Bible in a year. Yes. That could be a great place to start, right? Here with the sentient, but I would say so in addition to that understanding of scripture and growing in that, I would say then that the second takeaway is just patience in this perseverance and gentleness on this journey that if you fall, if you struggle, if you fumble in prayer, it's not the end of the journey. It's a fact. It's part of this journey, pick up and begin again. St. Teresa says there's nothing else to do, but pray again, so you just go back to it. The next moment it comes back to you, you go back to it and start again. Yes. All right. Yeah. Let's say a prayer. Sure. Heavenly Father, I want to thank you so much for this day, for this time to be together. Thank you for your patience on our journey, for your love, for your mercy. And we ask you just to give us the grace to hear your voice more clearly, to attune our will to yours, and give us the compassion and love we need to be patient with ourselves and to continue to strive again to know you more and more each day. In your name we pray, Amen. St. Teresa of Avala. Pray for us. Pray for us. God be with you, let nothing disturb you, and we'll see you tomorrow.