780: David Lebovitz Live From New York. On Chocolate, Acid at Chez Panisse, and Blowing Up on Substack.

(upbeat music) There's a recipe in the book for Rocky Road. I don't like complicated recipes, but it's really, really, really good. I had these two food stylists, and usually food stylists don't eat the food when they do a photo shoot. They ate everything, and they were like taking it home with them. Usually, you're like trying to get, and they were like, they couldn't stop eating the Rocky Road. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. David Lieberwitz is on the show today, and we're talking about chocolate. He's the author of The Great Book of Chocolate, and we talk about it in this live recording from Resoli Bookstore in Manhattan. I hope you enjoy this episode. (audience applauding) Thank you, Izzy, for the introduction. I appreciate you all coming out. We're recording this live for a podcast like Coho's called This Is Taste, and we'll have it up in the feed. You should check it out. David, welcome to the stage. How are you, my friend? Good. New York is the only place where they know how to pronounce my last name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, I've heard it really butchered. What's the worst one? Well, in France, they can't pronounce, is anyone French here? (audience laughing) Well, in France, they can't pronounce V. Cool, closer to the mic. They pronounce it as W. So they're like, "Liebewitch, I'm like sandwich." No, it's like, they can't say V. Yeah. So, that's okay. So speaking of sandwiches, you landed a few days ago. Tell me a little bit about when you end up in New York, you know, are there food groups that you wanna hit? Like, food groups. Like, New York food groups. Oh, I think they're like carbs or-- Oh no, like-- If I were talking air or something. Like, do you have like-- I have spots. Yeah, where do those go? Okay, well, that, how long do we have? Yeah. Well, like yesterday I was with a friend who I used to work with at Chey Pines and we were eating near Hanis. If you haven't been to Hanis, you need to go. And I hate saying to them, "We really need to do things." But, so I was talking to my friend, and she's very discerning. We worked together. I said, "This chocolate brownie is the best thing you've ever eaten." And she was like, "Okay, so we got down to this huge line, and I'm like, "Oh, and some telling about this brownie and going on." And the owner standing there, and he's really nice. He goes, "David, I'll get you one." And I was like, "All right, normally I'm like, no, no." I'm like, "Okay, it was really good." So I got to Hanis. I love elbow bakery. I went with my friend Deb. Last time we were here and we ordered everything. It was really good. I love pepperoni pizza. And in France, do they have the small cups? They don't have pepperoni. You don't even have pepperoni in France. Oh, wow. To have it at the US Embassy in the employee cafeteria, they have pepperoni pizza. I'm like, where do you get the pepperoni from? And they're like, "Harmel, it's from America." They're tax dollars are feeding me, pepperoni, and Paris. I love Winson bakery. That's one of my favorite places in the world as well. They're sort of family to me now. They've adopted me. I actually love Claude. What did-- Why, why, the face? Because everyone likes it, but it's really good. For a reason. Yeah. Is it because it's a little too heavy in your want you want to go a little off? Well, I know it's kind of on the pricey or side. Yeah, sure. A little embarrassed. But it's not crazy. But it's delicious. Dude, have you checked the prices in New York? Yes. We went to Marcel the other night. The desserts were like $56. Yeah. But they bring you the whole cake. Oh, that's a deal. That's bringing you the whole cake. I mean, we will-- there'll be questions at the end if you have any specific New York food groups questions. But let's get to the great book of chocolate. You put this out in 2004, and you decided to revise it with your publisher. And I want to ask you just like when you were looking at the revisions and the way chocolate we have a conversation about how chocolate is morphed over the years. But what were the main things you wanted to update? Well, one of the things was the way how much Americans appreciate chocolate and our appreciation has just grown exponentially in the last 25 years. I write about this in the book, but I remember I was in San Francisco when this man came up to me. And he goes, I'm making chocolate. And I'm like, get away from me. It's like crazy person making chocolate. And he opened this little packet, and he gave me this melty thing. I was like, OK, whatever. And I tasted it and I was like, oh, this is good. And then it became Sharford Burger Chocolate. Wow. And I didn't buy any shares. And they sold it for like $70 million. But there was one bean to bar chocolate maker in America. And on my blog, I had written this list of bean to bar chocolate makers. It was like four. And then I kept adding, oh, there's a few more. And now there are over 250. So even if you go to Walgreens now, there's fancy chocolate. Well, maybe not Walgreens, but-- To find fancy, I mean, better than Reese's. Yeah, I mean, well, I like Reese's. Dude, you can go there. I love Reese's. I don't have a problem with any chocolate. Oh, that's nice. I like M&Ms. But that has changed. Also, what's available has changed. And you know, in life, we don't get a chance to go back and redo things that we did 20, 25 years ago. When you write a book, the book is out. When you write a recipe for the internet, you can change it. And there's a disease that's called going back to your old recipes and posts and Deb is not in here. It's going back and changing things because you changed the way you cook. So I wanted it to change the recipes and update them and add more. And I love chocolate. I love the whole thing. The way chocolate's described, the genetics is new. All this stuff changed. And my-- I love my publisher. And they said, do you want to redo the chocolate book? And I said, absolutely. Wow. Like, when you were then given that task, you wanted to add recipes, right? There are new recipes in the book. But what about the Paris Chocolate Shop section? Because that's a really interesting evolution. What was that like compiling the new revised lists that's in the book that's out today? Well, especially now, there are so many Paris lists. I look at Instagram and tell you, five restaurants you've got to eat in Paris. Five best beach shows in their places. I would not eat at and I would not recommend anybody. But they're just on everybody's list. But chocolate shops, people come to Paris for chocolate. A lot of countries have really good chocolate. Spain has great chocolate. I hope you had some last week. Yeah, absolutely. Italy makes-- America makes really good chocolate. But people come to Paris because Paris is known-- the French are really into technique. So technically, a lot of the chocolates are just really good. That's why the pastries are so good as well. So I wanted to update that chapter too. And I was really fortunate because my photo team came to Paris. And I was at Anderson, my photographer. He shot the pictures of the chocolates in the book. And he was like, he's such a good photographer. And I love that whole chapter. He just did beautiful photos. It was funny because when the book came out, there was a new chocolate shop and everyone was talking about. And I was like, oh, shoot, I didn't put in the book. I couldn't sleep for four days. Everyone's going to be like, why isn't that place? So I went in there last week and I got some chocolates in the pre-learn. The nuts were burnt. And the chocolate was kind of bland. So you're dodged a bowl without-- Oh, it's okay. Now I got to sleep at night. Were there any-- I slept for the first time in two, six months. Because it was out. And were there any chocolates that closed that you were like bomb that you had to cut out? So nothing had cut out. There was one, I guess I can tell you. Because it didn't close out. Jade Jennell, her father is Jacques Jennell. And he has a chocolate shop he's well known. And I've known his daughters. And she was a teenager. There's a lot of stories there. She was a lawyer. And she started making these little pyramid chocolates. Very pretty. Not pretty, but chic. And the shop is really austere. And it's right next door to Cedric Raleigh. And then people-- he's like mobs outside of the store. And there's nobody in her store. And I was like, well, shall I write about this? This isn't going to last. And so I bought some chocolates for the photo. And we were eating them. I was like, these are really, really good. I think I got to keep this in the book. And she's doing well now. Good, well-- Yeah. And so the sound of a lot of people is just when you're next to the most viral pastry shop in the world. The second, then when next door is not going to get it. Let's zoom out a little bit. And when you are in Paris and or a major European capital that has a great chocolate culture, how do you look at a chocolate shop and judge it by walking in, looking at the case? What are the senses that you use to judge that you're actually going to go and buy something? Because I think we all find ourselves in that situation if we're traveling. Well, people asked-- I was just being interviewed by a newspaper about how to find good restaurants in Paris. I said, often look at the floor. Is it clean? Is it interesting? Is it nice? Wow, never heard that one. Why am I still very detailed? Or especially coming from Chépeñice where everything had to be a certain way. So I look at a shop. If I see Teddy bears in the corner, dolls or anything, or artificial flowers, no. Yeah, but you see that in Europe. - Yeah. - And I can tell if a place, because sort of look at the staff, are they sort of proud of what they have, are they showing sort of pride in it, or are they just selling stuff? - What about the array in the case? I mean, are you looking at particular flavors or does it just depend? - It just depends. I actually am intrigued when I see somebody doing something interesting, but like I was in Spain once and this really great, well interesting chocolate shop was doing chocolate with anchovies. And it was the only time I've ever spit anything with chocolate. (laughing) I was like, it's tough, no, but I should try it. - Was it a tough hang, yeah, wasn't quite working? - Yeah, it didn't quite work. - But I, you know, it actually means that they're trying things and being creative and not everything works. - I mean, though the anchovies in the boss region in the north, they're so legendary for us, so it's like almost like in their palette, you know, the anchovies, but not with chocolate. - That's an interesting way to, - Hey man, I'm just looking out for my Spanish fans there. I'm gonna be honest, I'm pretty particular about my pots and pans. And since I started using Smithy Castiron at home, it's hard to use anything else. Nothing seers a perfectly marbled ribeye like Castiron. It's all about the Mahogany crust. And Smithy takes it to another level. 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The all-clad pan and reach for every time I roast a chicken, the cramor knife I use for basically everything. When kitchen gear is well made, it changes how cooking feels. That's what Quince is doing as well. Serious cookware like Damascus steel knives and ceramic nonstick. All performing at a professional level and price 50 to 80% less than comparable brands. There's no middlemen and it's direct from the artisans. And honestly, I'd swap out half my cabinet for Quince versions without thinking twice. And they've got fine wines too, Napa's best to Dom Pernion. If you want to make a weeknight feel a little more festive. Refresher every day with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com/taste for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. And now, available in Canada too. That's qiuiance.com/taste for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/taste. David is a remarkable knack for not just creating these recipes that work and are just so well considered and written well. But you're a damn good writer, man. You know how to capture scenes. You write at length. You've written about your apartment at length. I got a D in writing in high school. I was like, teachers sometimes don't see it. I've been in the New York Times bestseller. I just send it to the teacher. You should send it. But like, I wanted to talk about a section that I think is really well written and really enjoyable. By the way, thank you. Oh, no. That's coming from a writer. That's always a nice compromise. I recognize the work you've been putting in online and your sub-stack. Many of us subscribe to that. I think this is a really cool section in the book where you are stodging in Belgium. And you're writing about your time there around the holidays. Talk about what that was like to-- Because you were reporting it as a reporter. Well, that was a kid. You know, it was 20 something years ago. And when I revised the book, I was like, well, we should definitely cut that story out. Oh, really? Yeah. And they were what your publisher was wise to keep it in there. Well, they didn't talk to me until it's time to turn it in. I try not to bother them. Better to let me out. Yeah. No. But I read the show. I was like, oh, this is actually really cute. And I worked with a woman, Kate Leahy, on the book. She helped me with some of the research because she lives in San Francisco. She would test the recipes with US ingredients and so forth. But she read it. She's a writer. She writes her own books. You know, Kate, Mr. Minster, I think. She's absolutely. And she read it and she says, oh, that's-- we have to keep it. So I sort of tightened it up, changed it. Oh, you did? Oh, you revised it from the original? It's revised. You've been a book on the-- So if you have the original revised-- I didn't just phone it in, folks. So what's it like just being parachuted into this legendary chocolate shop as a pastry chef as somebody who was in chocolate school, and you work-- asked to do a lot of-- It was really hard, actually. I'm used to working in restaurants, but working in a place-- first of all, where you don't know what you're doing. You feel you just have to start all over again. It's kind of like moving to France and not speaking French when you move. It's like, oh shit, what did I do to get myself into? But I was in over my-- I didn't know anything. And I was working with all these people that knew what they were doing, and they were really good at it. So I learned a lot, but everything had to be perfect. And I mean, it's kind of some shape in East, where we were more into flavor than making sure the corners are perfect, the cake. So that was a pretty eye-opening, but it was a really interesting-- it was fascinating because I got to make these chocolates with these people that were some of the best chocolate tears in the world. Yeah. And you were in chocolate school. What compelled you to apply-- to attend chocolate school after your long career in pastry? OK. Is this going to be-- Is this recording this? We're recording this for the-- This is days. OK. We can talk after the edit. OK. I love Alice Waters, the owner of Chépinise. Love her very much. But her idea of a perfect dessert is like a tangerine or some dates, not chocolate cake. So I'm into chocolate. So I didn't work with-- we did chocolate stuff at Chépinise. But we never did like chocolates or anything. We didn't have any skills in tempering chocolate, making chocolates, or whatever. I was very fly. So when I was working at Chépinise, I need to go learn about chocolate. So I went to Belgium, and I went to Calabit College. And we as-- and there was five of us. We had our own little station, and the teacher was so nice. And we ate in like the cafeteria with the factory workers. Oh, wow. We had like our little carap of wine on the table. And-- So you're being the best. Yeah, and then I wanted-- years later, I wanted to go to the Valrona chocolate school, which is in France. And I had a friend who knew them, and they do trainings for professionals. So I was there with a bunch of professional chocolate years. And there was people who were very high level in me. But it was very interesting. I learned a lot, and it was great. How do you recommend home cooks leveling up their chocolate skills? Are there courses or can non-professionals attend these schools? I know. Oh, no. Well, they don't really want people. I mean, it's not for people who don't know-- they assume a certain level of knowledge. And then you're going to be able to stand in your feet for, say, seven or eight hours. You're not there on vacation. It's not like a cooking holiday. There are places you can go as an amateur, or as a non-professional, but I don't know them. But most of that stuff you wouldn't make at home, because when you buy chocolates, like filled chocolates, the square ones you see it, like lobby zone du chocolate, they have machines that enrobe the chocolates. Otherwise, you have to temper the chocolate and do it by hand. And you can't get that fine coating like they do, because they have a fan as they come out of the machine that blows off the excess chocolate. So you're better off making brownies at home than trying to make fine dipped chocolates. So let's go to the-- You can make truffles. About the book, you added recipes, you thought about the modern chocolate baker and cook. What were some distinctions and some areas you wanted to update that you didn't have an original that you think is related to the way people are cooking with chocolate today? Well, to me, a lot of it was availability of ingredients. Interesting. 20 years ago, chocolate chips meant Nestleys mortals. Which are not-- they are what they are. You don't hate any chocolates? I'm trying to think there's probably like a company or two that I had a tussled with or something. There was one company that had this terrible rep in California, and he was so mean and awful. And I knew chocolate here stopped using their chocolate because the guy was so awful. Interesting. Yeah. What's the company? Sharford Burgundy. OK. No. No, listen. but that was a-- I forgot the question. Just like the way that home cooks are-- - It's the ingredients. - Yeah, yeah. - So now you can buy chocolate chunks at Whole Foods. You can get, you think with the internet, you can get Valorona chocolate. It's not out of reach anymore. So those kinds of things are possible to buy. You don't need, I tested the recipes in the book with super market ingredients. Actually, people are like, "Hershey's Choco," you use that. I'm like, "Well, you know that flavor, that's the flavor of devil's food cake." And it's got a certain taste. So, but I was really intrigued by incorporating all these other ingredients into the recipes. Like there's a recipe called for blue chip chocolate chip cookies. And I remade them and I was like, "These don't look good." - From the book, from the original. - From my book. - From my book. Because 25 years ago, we didn't have the internet with chocolate cookies all over the place and all these shops doing cookies and stuff. So I made them and I'm looking at them. I'm like, "Maybe I should get rid of this recipe." And then I tasted one and it was so good. It's like one award for best chocolate cookie in San Francisco. - And it was a hard recipe to score originally, right? It was pretty secretive. You went undercover to get it. - Well, somebody I knew gave it to me, John Carroll. - Oh, okay. - Well, it used to be James Beard's assistant. So I had to track them down. He's living in Texas now to give him a copy of the book 'cause I like to give people a copy of the book when they participate in it. But I tasted this cookie and they were really good. And they're like not really dark or caramelized and they don't have all the whatever you're supposed to do with the chocolate cookies. They're just like chewy and really good. And everybody loved them. I did a video with my friend Carlos and a Paris last week and I made the cookies and he's a Mexican chef, wonderful guy in Paris. If you come to Paris, eat it, comar. Even though you have good Mexican restaurants here, go to comar. He's great and he's really sweet. And he loved the cookies too. Everybody loves those cookies. So I kept him in the book. But it's good to revisit things in your life that you're not sure about 'cause in your sure. - Well, it goes back to like revising recipes. Sometimes you just have to redo it and update because of availability of products, et cetera. Make the case for the chocolate mug cake. - Oh. - Because you have a recipe and you really are like full open-hearted towards suggesting this. - Well, just basically it's much more lined. I think people think it's too simple. I'm not people, not me. - Okay. - I like the mug cake. Don't look at me like I'm lining my cake. - No, I love the mug cake. - Not the idea of this cake that you put all these ingredients in a cup and you put it in the microwave oven. And people hate microwave ovens. It's like, well, they have their place and mug cakes. You can have a cake in like a minute and a half. - Yeah. - So you just stir these ingredients and then put it in the microwave for like a minute and 10. It was funny 'cause it was like, I was like, is it a minute and 11, and seconds or is it regular ovens like nine or 10 minutes? - Yeah. - But with a microwave like 15 seconds can make the difference between really overcooked and not. So I came up with that cake and when they were shooting it, you know Betsy Stromburg from "Tenspeed. She's in the, she came, the designer of the book who's wonderful, she's a really good designer. - Lots of her books are here. She's the one holding the cake. - Oh, cool. - Oh, very fun. When you talk about the components, you know, not all mug cakes are equal, right? - Oh really, I don't know. - I mean, what are the components that you're talking about and how are-- - Well, cocoa powder, you know, butter eggs, things like that. - And just like a quality cocoa powder. - Yeah, but you know, I kinda, you know, I'm one of these people that like, use what you can get. - Yeah, I only, there's a whole thing 'cause there's two different kinds of cocoa powder, well there's four, but basically Dutch process are natural. And I realized a lot of people, even in New York, you don't have grocery stores anymore, really. - We're the internet. - Yeah, yeah, the internet, but you know, you wanna make brownies, where do you go? You know, you go to Whole Foods, but you might not live. So anyhow, people might have her shoes or something in their bodega, whatever. So I use that word bodega in a book once. - Oh yeah. - The editor was from New York. She was, that's a bad word. People don't like bodegas. I'm like, one Spain and bodega's like, 'cause I was referring to Spain. - Interesting. - Bodega, I mean, I guess, no, they're amazing in New York. - Well, but yeah, but they're kinda not known for like, you know, having three mimes. - Yeah, chocolate products, right? - Prope tops. - Some, some maybe though. Our bodegas have gotten better, man. - Okay, I don't think so. - We've got good bodegas. - I don't, I went to college in New York, but upstate. - Oh, where? Oh, CA. - What? - No, CIA. - No, Ithaca College. - Oh, Ithaca College. Were you baking then? In college? - I was working in a restaurant. - Okay. - I was working, hello. Are you from Ithaca? - All right. - All right. - I went last year. - I was like the Flix Bus. There's no way to get there. (laughing) - What's the Flix Bus? - It's like a discount bus. - Oh, cool. - But they give you like seat assignments. And you can actually buy the seat next year, which I did, 'cause the seats are like, you know, you're sitting like this for seven hours on this bus. And we had this bus driver who was incredible. She like yelled at everybody. Right off. She was, everyone needs to be in their assigned seat. If you're not in your assigned seat, get up and get in it now. - Rooves. - Anybody likes a cigarette? I'm gonna pull over right on the highway. We're gonna, did you take the Flix Bus? Are you a driver? - Yeah, I'm a driver. - Okay. - Okay. I mean, the Flix Bus. - Yeah, but it was like $50. - Yeah, good. - And just the flights are like, 800. So, okay. I'll take the Flix Bus. - Take the bus, yeah. But what were you baking early when you were at college? What was that like? - Well, I worked in a vegetarian restaurant. - Oh, yeah. - And we weren't allowed to have any machines in the kitchen. And we used like honey and we had sugar. We had carob too. - Oh. (laughing) - You carob-- - It's getting better. - Oh, I know. While there's like these new, like, chocolate alternatives-- - It's getting better. - They have carob and-- - It's a different thing. - It is. - This was not Moosewood, was it? - Oh, no, no. They were the-- - They yelled at me. I went to their Wents for dinner and they were mean, those people. - Oh, really? - It's just being recorded. - I mean, career so-- Anyway, no, it was another restaurant called Cabbage Town Cafe. - Okay, cool. - But we had better-- Everyone in town liked our food. The tourists and the college students, families went to Moosewood, but it's been sold. - Okay. - That was no longer a-- Moosewood is no longer what it was. - To be clear. - To be clear. - To be clear, yeah. - Yes. Okay, so-- - They were mean. (laughing) Just like not-- - Well, I ordered-- I wanted some friends and we heard about the wine and it was wine country and we're eating and I said, "Excuse me, could we get our bottle of wine?" And they didn't bring it, they didn't bring it. And finally, we're done with our meal. And they bring the wine. And I said, "Well, we're done. "We don't want it." And the woman yelled at her comrade across the restaurant. She says, "Oh, now he doesn't want it." - Oh, God. (laughing) - Listen, on the podcast, if you hear a server and these interactions last 30 plus years sometimes, to be careful. - Is it funny like you can't remember what you had for breakfast? - Right. - You can remember-- - Our fat server. - 30 years ago, somebody yelling at you. - So you have a word. - You have a recipe, a chocolate cake recipe that includes sour crout. - Yes. - And there are recipes for chocolate cake that include mayonnaise. And what are your thoughts on these unexpected additions to chocolate cakes? 'Cause it seems like it's kind of a-- - Well, a lot of them, I don't know if you know Heidi Swanson. - Yeah. - She has a recipe for black bean brownies. - Exactly. Great example. - She's always saying, oh, that's weird. Well, it's like, well, it's starch, which is basically what, flour. I mean, flour is a, you know, it's just, - Pete, you can use starchy, whatever. I don't know if wheat is technically a starch. Any food scientist here? - Is a grain. - It's a grain, but could that be a starch? - Good question. - Okay. - Well, if we post it on the internet, someone will-- - The scientists in the room agree that it is a starch. I didn't study food science a little bit. But anyhow, so it's not like a far stretch. The Sauer crowd cake was pretty interesting because it was a recipe from made to hater. And a lot of people might not remember her, unfortunately. And you should know about her. But she was this amazing baker. She had this amazing hair. She was always well made up, lovely woman. And she had this Sauer crowd cake. And apparently, it came about, one of the stories is like a high school cafeteria, back in whatever the '60s. They had too much Sauer crowd and they're trying to figure out how to get rid of it. So somebody baked it into a cake. If you think about it, well, it's basically Sauer crowd's vinegar. You have acid, you put acid in cakes. Not acid at the time you get hallucinating. But like vinegar to activate and salt and cabbage. - But the cabbage, is it like-- - Sort of melts away. - And it blended, like kind of the structure of the cabbage breaks down to a point where you're not even-- - It's more of a flavor, each-hopping. - Yeah, and it's a little textural. It's like carrot cake. First time I made one in France, everybody was like, I'm not eating that. They were like, "jammy." (audience laughing) But I learned in France, if you tell people something's good for them, then they'll need it. So I'm like, "It's a very good policy." as like you have it, it's good for your health, it has cooked carrots in it, and nuts and everything. They're like, okay, okay, that'd be-- (laughing) - And you know, cream cheese frosting, French people love cream cheese. - Oh yeah, but can you find Philly? - Yes. - I feel like you probably had something to do with that. - No, thank you. - Bringing Philly to, 'cause you've written about this in the past. - Well it's funny, 'cause I got to the wholesale, I have a license to go to wholesale stores, and this is one giant store. And they have four kinds of cream cheese. I'm like, I didn't know there were four kinds. One's like Australian style. - What? - Yeah, I was like, what is that? - That's cool. - But you can get Philadelphia is better because it has whatever the gums in it. People go, it has carogine, and I'm like, that's seaweed. It's okay. - Yeah. - We've all swallowed sea water. Do you swallow sea water if you had seaweed? - I mean, it is truly a unique product that can only, it's one thing. It's the Philly busier, it's the one Philly, it's like the thing. - Well we did a test of cheesecakes once in San Francisco. I was part of this group called The Bakers Doesn't. And once we saw, it was professional and home bakers, and we would have these things where we would all make the same recipe and bring it in. And there'd be like 60 cakes. Well, 60 cakes, and everyone was completely different, but we tested a lot of the cheesecakes with different cream cheesees, and Philadelphia is-- - But the final, the artesian ones, the taste was better. But the Philadelphia had that. - That, yeah. - It's basically, the texture, it's like stable. It's a little more stable than the-- - What's Richard's denser? - Densers, I have a gap between my teeth. So when you bite into it, you want to see the gap. That means it's good, 'cause it's that stick to it. - Yeah. - Because you brought up acid after acid, did you ever drop acid while cooking a chippanise? - I just have to-- - I never took acid. We did mushrooms, not a chippanise. Chippanise, it's been well documented. A lot of people did drugs there. Not a lot, but there were stories and stuff. I drank a lot of coffee, but I did not. - Yeah. - The drugs while I worked there. - That's just a hadass. I mean, just for the right-- - It was too busy. - Yeah, yeah. - Anyway. - So it wasn't your performance in a hand-seed drug. Coffee, which was-- - We drank a lot of wine. - We drank a lot of wine. - What a love-- - What a love-- - When they calculated how much wine was employee loss, there's probably some word for it. And it was huge, it was like over $100,000 a year. 'Cause we were just drunk wine. And the owners would open the bottle, so-- - I mean, there you go, so it's-- - Yeah. - Fringe benefits. Okay, so tell me the world's best hot chocolate. Where is it? We have hot chocolate fans in the room, I'm sure. - Define the world's best. - That's a great question. I mean, what-- (laughing) Do you have a hot chocolate that has made you rethink the way you think about hot chocolate? - No, but I came up with a recipe. It was on my website, it first was Parisian hot chocolate. People obviously think, "Oh, it's so rich, it's so creamy, there's all this cream in it, I'm like, there's no cream in it, it's milk." Or non-fat milk or low-fat milk. Everyone's like, "No, no, it's gotta have cream in it." I'm like, "No, they don't." And John Sharpenberg was one of the, he goes, "You know, the best hot chocolate is maybe water. It's water and chocolate." 'Cause then you get pure chocolate. And there's a place in Paris called Plac Chocolate. It's a bean-tabar and they do a hot chocolate with water. You can get it with milk, water, or oat milk, of course. - Do you ever have the city bakery hot chocolate? - Yes. - There's city bakery, I was in Kyoto this fall. There's a city bakery. - Really? - Yes. I was gonna pour one out for them here. I mean, there's no more city bakery. - Oh yeah, there was that. - That was really good. - It was really good. I keep thinking, I'm keeping chasing that hot chocolate every December that would come out at city bakery. - But the pretzel croissants. - I had one in Japan, it wasn't the same. - Oh man. - Does everybody remember the pretzel croissants? - Yeah. - Yeah. - What a legendary place. It was a. - It's a pretty nice guy. - Yeah, nice people and just, kind of like the way that they had that hot bar and cold bar upstairs. That was a really unique thing for New York to have that on like 18th Street. - Very sad. - It's closed. - Yeah, I mean, anyways. A few more and then we'll have some questions. I do wanna talk to you about Substack, but let's talk about, on the ethics side, you know, chocolate. - The gotcha moment. - No, it's no gotcha. We're cool, we're all cool here. You know, you have, like this transparency moment, you've had a lot of moments since this first book came out, right, being the bar, you had the Mass Brothers moment, which was interesting. You know, ethical and responsible is on every label of every chocolate bar. It's, there's a lot of like greenwashing with chocolate out there. There's a lot of like, chocolate is very loaded, right? It's a very, and like, I mean, how do you like square the reality from the marketing in chocolate in the chocolate industry? A friend of mine who is a cocoa bean buyer, and he worked for a chocolate company for a long time, and I once asked about that, he goes, "You know what?" He goes, "These bags come out of the jungle, and we actually have no idea what is in them." So he's like all that stuff about fair trade, you know, organic. He's like, "You can't really trace it, and maybe it's changed." He told me this when I was writing the book originally, maybe that's changed, but I look at all that stuff really skeptically, and I think we should in general, you know, this is whole thing about natural products. What's, and what is natural? And there's like, you know, ultra-process foods that are natural. So a lot of these labels, you know, once again, it's like buying your food at the farmer's market here, it might not be organic, but I'm pretty sure the people that I see behind those strawberries that pick them and grow them or not, spraying them with pesticides. They just can maybe afford the label. - Or the label. - Which is like hundreds of thousands of dollars. - Yeah, and a lot of it saw, there's a lot of socioeconomic questions about what people can afford. Should people can afford a little $10 bars of chocolate, six of them would make like a cake. What should they buy? There's this ethically sourced chocolate company, and somebody said, "That's Calibit." A friend of mine, the chocolate thing goes, "That's Calibit chocolate." But it's not labels as such. And Calibit's good chocolate, but it's like, - It's basically just like a white, like Calibit's doing the white label, and they're just putting this ethically sourced. - Oh, well, this is colorful, pretty label on it. - Yeah. - You know, interesting. And I bought someone, I was like, "Oh, it's okay. It's hard to make the call on those." - Yeah. - You do your best, I guess? - Well, there was a show called The Good Place a few years ago, and there was a line, and he said like, it was talking about how humans have such problems. He goes, "You can't even buy, just buying a tomato now for humans is such a, there's so many concerns." - Yeah. How many of you subscribed to David's sub-stack? Raise your hands, yeah. We've got like 90%. So let's talk a little media here, because I think you really, if you didn't know, you'd launched your first website in the '90s, '99, right? - 1999. - 1999, you launched your first food blog. - You were really one of the original food blogs. - Now look what I've done. - Now look what you've done. - Sorry. - So, so sub-stack was a natural fit for you to migrate over there, but you've really, really taken off on sub-stack, and it's, I think a combination of your dedication to posting a lot and doing high quality work. It's a, you know, recipes plus writing is good. How is like sub-stack particularly changed you as a creator, as an author? - Well, two things. One is that people don't realize when you have a website, especially like a blog. There's all this technical stuff that you have to learn. You have to learn how to put things in these editing software programs, then the server goes down, and you have to deal with all the attempts like rolling around. And it's just like all this stuff. And you just want to, and it got to the point where just posting a recipe, 90% of it was dealing with all the technical stuff, 10% was actually the recipe. And then, so that just finally reached a boiling point for me, I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. And sub-stack reached out to me. They said, "Mart." - Yeah, well, yeah, by then. And they were like, you know, why didn't she join us? And I was really, one thing I did, they did say it never would amount to anything, but I started a newsletter in 2006. And it was like, why are you doing that? I was like, I don't know. And then it got to the point where I was paying $400 a month to send out the newsletter. - Right. - And then I was like, that's a trip to Hawaii. Like, why am I sending out a newsletter for free when I could be in Hawaii drinking my ties with Matt and my other friends? - And you weren't really monetizing it, right? I mean-- - I had ads and people go, you have ads. - But it's like, I'm like, well, someone's got to pay, I have a mortgage and-- - You're paying $400 a month. I mean, you're in the whole-- - Yeah, $400 a month that got to go to New York and you know, $80, $40 pizza and stuff. And $56. - So you've been to series. You have had the $45 pizza. - No. - So just to close it on the sub-stack. But what is the community been like? Because it's a very much a social, like, experiment network where people can comment. Very different than having your own-- - Well, also, I was spending a lot of time answering comments on my blog. And you know, you get people that just stop by. They've never been to your site. And they were sometimes leave like, inane things. I never got like, bad. I didn't get like, well, there was some couple times. But I was like, first of all, I was a line cook for 10 years. So you want to say something to me. You heard-- You've heard-- You've heard-- OK, I see. I'm not nice. So I wanted like community. I wanted people who already knew me to be able to come to my-- you know, make a concert effort to come to my place. And I do restrict comments to only paid subscribers just because I answer almost every comment. It's a lot of work. And I have other things to do in my life. But I like-- actually, one thing-- I do like free. I like the fact that I like free content, that I can produce it. And you know, the paid people pay that with keeps the site, the newsletter, I can do it. And I have an editor, a copy editor, I have an assistant, and I have an audio editor for my podcast. Yeah, so I've-- It all adds up. I mean, so it's like self-funded, essentially, through those-- But actually, like having people-- I like paying people. I'm one of the rare people that-- I put one of my newsletter posts in AI that correct it for typos. And I said, point out all the typos. And it did. But I like having a person. So-- We have a few more minutes, and we'll take some questions. I have to do on the-- on this podcast, you're on. Oh, did you get me to prepare? Yeah. You prepared. So on our podcast, this is a case we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this conversation, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious. Taste check. You got-- you prepared. Is that the wrong notes? It says, remember, don't talk about politics. [LAUGHTER] Wrong notes. The best fruit. Rennclod plums. These little green plums and France. And then you're still like associating anything green with sour and unripe. They're the best things in the world. They're like super sweet. Oh, man. The word's vegetable. Everybody knows this. Green bell peppers. It's facts. It's facts. That's really bad. Especially on pizza. I don't like to tell like, yuck on people's yum, but-- It's not a good one. Green peppers are bad. Well, they're unripe peppers. Yeah. They're vegetable. What is your typical breakfast? Oh, actually, it's a cafeole, a bowl of coffee. Romance stopped drinking coffee in the morning, so he has this coffee substitute. So we have that. I have orange juice, and he has carrot juice in the morning. It's which is funny, because I'm the one from California. And then we have toast with salted butter and I usually have chestnut honey or bitter honey on it, buckwheat honey. And sometimes I have jam. Love that. And in the middle of the morning, I snack. I mean, only Romance's father once saw me snacking. He's like, what are you doing? I'm like, having snack, like, mid-morning. Is this the American? I have a bowl of fruit. I have to have fruit every day. And yogurt or fromage brunt, which is like goat milk. I usually get goat milk. And homemade granola. I ask this to everybody so you got to answer it, the best dessert. Ilfloton. I love Ilfloton. Apples in the audience. Why? It's just-- I don't know why. It's really-- it's a crème anglés, really cold crème anglés, with like a poached meringue on top, with caramel sauce and nuts. And the crème anglés has to be really cold. That's the best. I love-- I just love it. I don't know why. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. Oh, the art bears are the flowering hearth. The flowering hearth. That book is so amazing. But did you read the New Yorker article that John Burjall wrote? This is the most amazing book ever. The best food book ever written. This guy went to this inn. He was blind, which isn't talk about in the book. He wrote about these two women that would go-- they would get grouse from the neighbors and homemade liqueurs to serve. And he wrote about all these meals he had over the years. And a lot of it was made up. And there was a New Yorker article, John Burjall, this woman who worked with the author, she goes, he went like once. So-- It's a wild story. Yeah, it's crazy. But it's the best. I mean, the writing is so of a time. And it's very-- Yeah, it's the best food book ever written. And say one more time. And they may have it here. So one more time, dead title. The art bears are the flowering hearth. Yeah, it's a really cool book. A few more when you're craving fast food, where are you going? You know, I don't eat a lot of fast food just because I don't feel good after I eat it. But I do love fried chicken. So I would say Popeyes. There's Popeyes in Paris now, and I haven't been. Oh, man. But they're great. Your favorite city in the world of visit for food? In the world. I have to say, I had really good food in Tel Aviv. That was a really good food city. There's just a lot of different cultures there. San Francisco is pretty good too. Yeah. Honolulu is great too. I love this. You have great-- Tins and cities. Nice job. A plus on that one. Last one, your favorite sandwich? Corn beef. I never had pastrami till I was like 45 years old. Because I always had corn beef on rye with gouldins mustard. Yes. It has to be gouldins mustard. Or battampé is that what it's the other one. And then half sour pickles on the side. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. I spend a lot of time in restaurants thinking about how the spaces work, and sometimes don't work. One of my favorite dining rooms in New York City is Michaels in Midtown. It's so inviting. And there's all this incredible art on the wall from Frank Stella, Jesper Johns, and David Hockney. And here's the thing. When I went home to my own outdoor space, it was kind of the opposite. There was no atmosphere or vibe, just a boring table in chairs. Wayfair helped me find a new outdoor set in zero time. Wayfair offers every style for every budget. And with over 20 million verified five star reviews, there's no second guessing. Plus Wayfair verified offers hand-vetted pieces and 10 point quality inspection. 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You. Yeah, pause for David. David Livo-Witz. Level Whits. All right, first question from the audience. Yeah, don't be shy. Just somebody here. We're sorry. Oh, thank you. First one's always the hardest. I like that. I'm a big fan and everything you bake is-- to just be like, is great. So it's so much fun to hear you. My question-- Thanks for coming. OK, well-- You're welcome. My question is about cocoa powder. OK. I had a recipe that demanded black cocoa powder. Yeah. So I bought black cocoa powder. I used black cocoa powder, but now I have a big bag of black cocoa powder. And I've been just using it as if it were a regular old cocoa powder, but I'm reading it's much milder. It doesn't have the same flavor. Do you have an opinion about black cocoa powder? I love black cocoa powder. But people have a hard time getting it. And I remember I was in New York City once, and I was like, I'm going to shop local. So I went to New York cake, and they didn't know what it was. Yeah. I was like, what? They're trying to sell me these little balls of chocolate. I was like, what? What you can do is just when you make any dessert that calls for cocoa powder, just put a spoonful of that in, and that will boost the flavor. King Arthur actually makes a mix. It's called the triple cocoa mix. Because people always go, what cocoa powder should I use? And what should I use? Like, well, that is like all three cocoa powders. So use that. There's a brownie recipe on my website. It's a salty chocolate brownie. It's got black cocoa. That's really good. Also a huge fan. I've been reading you for at least 20 years. So there's a fun thing on Instagram, which is the last meal. And then they get really varied people. So Christian Vaults did it. And Post Malone did it. And your order here asked you what your best dessert is. But I want you to, if you would, say what your last meal is, but the dessert has to be chocolate. OK. It would definitely be fried chicken, because I only eat it once a year. And if I was my last meal, I would just eat the whole thing. It's so good. It's like, I'm bad. I would eat the whole. If I didn't stop myself, I would just eat fried chicken every day. So it would be fried chicken dessert. I actually, I love chocolate pudding with the skin on it. (audience laughs) Yeah. I love that. I'm like, when I was a kid, my mother made like my define, and there were like the package said something like, if you don't want the skin put like plastic wrap against it, I'm like, that's the best part. So, but some people don't like the skin. I love the skin. So, chocolate pudding with whipped cream would be my dessert. Great question. And that would want like boulevardiers to drink cocktails. Wow. Is one in the back and we've got one in the back. One there. Is one there, three questions, yeah. So, one of the things that has always stopped me from ever making chocolate is tempering chocolate. Yes. So, is there like some secret or is that no? I've tried all the, you know, there was like the New York Times. Like, here's how to temper chocolate. Mel chocolate, add some, you know, add a handful and stir it. It's tempered. I'm like, no, that's not the New York Times. I'm just making that up. There was a machine you can get and this guy invented it, like 20 years ago called the Sensation. And it was like this little machine that would temper chocolate. And I was like, this is kind of cool. And I bought one. It was like $500. Yeah. But it had this temperature. It works. But actually, you know, basically now it's really easy to get like an instant wreath thermometer and just you just stand there. And there's a recipe in the book for Rocky Road. And I always, I don't like complicated recipes, but it's really, really, really good. I had these two food stylists. And usually food stylists don't eat the food when they do a photo shoot. They're just like, they ate everything. And they were like taking it home with them. So that's tempering chocolate. But really, it doesn't, it's like, you just, you know, heated up, melt the chocolate, and watch the temperature go down, and then slowly bring it back up to a certain temperature. Well, Alice Medrich, who writes about chocolate a lot, she's sort of the chocolate expert of the world. She actually, we were talking once, and she said, you know, untempered chocolate actually tastes better, because it melts at a lower temperature. So when you put it in your mouth, it explodes in flavor. So that in the book, I say, you know, if you don't want a tempered chocolate, just put the Rocky Road in the fridge. And it's fine. Alice Medrich says, it's OK, it's OK. So it won't bloom in the fridge. Hi. I'm a pastry chef in the Sizzie. Do you know 50 pounds? And I use your ice cream book a lot. I've probably made 75% of the recipes in there, I would say. And I adapt them a lot, also, to suit, like, different fruits and stuff. So it's not really chocolate related, but I was wondering if you have a favorite ice cream flavor on somewhere that's exciting. I know. Paris right now to get ice cream? What was it last but-- In Paris, if there's somewhere that you're enjoying? You know, it's funny, because I always wanted to open a ice cream shop in Paris. And it was like, French people don't eat ice cream in the winter, and everyone's not going to work, and blah, blah, blah. So I didn't know. And then these fancy pastry chefs open ice cream shops. But I went into some of them, and it was like, you didn't want to touch anything. They were like, bonjour Monsieur. It's one of ice cream cone. So the best ice cream in Paris-- Bertillon's great. It's still great. But there's a woman, Julia Bell. And she has a shop called JJ Hings. And she puts-- she makes these ice cream cones with spelt flour, and they're like 50 cents extra. Like, that's the best deal in Paris. They're delicious. And for all her flavors, they're really interesting. She had a peanut butter and jelly one. But she was like fig jam, homemade. And she used fresh peanuts and everything. And she's really good. So JJ Hings. And it's big lines. Not big lines. Not like compared to New York, but-- Just your favorite flavor right now, ice cream. Well, if I was going to a shop, I was ordered a chocolate. I do like chocolate coffee, two different flavors. I learned in Italy, you never order one flavor of gelato. You always order two. But I also like flavors like flor de latte, which is like milk ice cream. Love that. Great question there. We have a time for one last question. She's had her hand up, too. So we have two questions. OK. You're behind the post. As someone who wants to write about food in the future, what was the transition from cooking and baking in the food industry to cooking and baking for yourself and writing as a career? Yeah. Well, I thought when I worked in the restaurant kitchens, we all used to dream about being food stylist. Because they're like, oh, they just sit around and arrange food. And they make $1,000 a day. And then I did food styling. And I'm like, this is not for me. These people deserve any whatever money they can do. The woman who did the cake on the cover of the book, Elizabeth, she was like incredible. The thing-- the transition wasn't that hard for me because when I started my blog in 1999, nobody read it. There was nobody reading stuff on the internet. Literally, no one read my blog until 2006 or 2004. Maybe people started reading it. So I wrote, basically, because everyone's like, oh, how do I get people to visit my blog? I'm like, do it for five to 10 years. And then-- I was like, what? Well, anyway, I don't want to do that. So it was a slow progression. And I became a better writer just because I was writing all the time. And I'm not technically a writer. I didn't-- wasn't trained or anything. But also, the public is a very harsh critic. So when you put things out there, I could write the most brilliant essay in the world. And if I put in a posture fee for it, that would be what everybody points out. They wouldn't-- you know, I-- So-- but it makes you more careful and more-- and also, writings all about editing. On the internet, there's a lot of blah, blah, blah, blah. You see a lot of these. That's the whole thing, like, get to the recipe. It's like, well, give people a reason to read your story. But realize they're only going to spend a minute or two. And that's fine. So how do you tighten things up? I'll spend hours or days writing something in two days or two weeks later, I'll just delete the whole thing. And then I'm like, oh, that wasn't interesting. Maybe a device. But you have to do this. Last question. There was someone you saw with their hand up, right? We're on the back side. Yeah, right there behind you. You will not be ignored. Yeah. Thank you so much. David's delighted. I've been reading you since study abroad in Paris. Which is, I think, 2010. So when everybody else started reading your blog, I was there with them. And I think a good follow-up question, hopefully, to the last one that was asked about food writing. It's changed a lot in the last 30 years. And you were one of the pioneers, as one of the first really successful food bloggers. So where do you see recipe writing or, really, recipe sharing going in the next five, 10 years? I mean, next year, I will say. And or if not, where do you see it going? Where would you like it to go? What do you want to stick around? Well, everyone's talking about AI. And if you're not watching the comeback on HBO Max, you should watch it. Start from the beginning, though, because this season, it's like a-- they filmed with three seasons, one season every 10 years. But now it's about AI. And there was a lot of talk about a year ago about AI is going to take over food writing, recipe writing. But you know what? You really need a person to make a recipe. A machine cannot create a recipe. It could create a recipe. But you only know it's going to work if someone makes it, a person who makes it. I mean, a machine could make the recipe and add the flour, but it needs to be made. So I don't think that is going to affect our industry. One thing I learned about being on the internet, I was kind of fortunate because when I started blogging, I had a little bit of cred because I was a pastry chef. So I knew how to bake and cook. And you know, no, no, whatever. We saw all these other voices that people who weren't cooks coming from, and they were really good. A great mix, and it still is. But you want to be a trusted source. One of the things Facebook did, speaking of trusted sources, but they made people use their own name, their real name. And that changed a lot when there's somebody, Deb Pearlman sitting here in front of me. But Rachel Simon's is over here. She owns Seedon Mill. But you know, there's a person behind this recipe, Rachel wrote a book called Sesame. There's a person who made the recipes. She sat down and figured out what to do. Deb does that too, if there's other writers in here. So I think trust-- you see someone like Dory Greenspan who's been doing this a really long time. And you don't last that long if your recipes don't work. So I am actually very positive. I think I do like the fact that we have had a lot of new voices coming in who are really interesting people. And I think the good thing about things like Substack, it provides people a platform. There are a lot of-- there are too many newsletters. - I'm, you know, cosine. - No, there's just a lot of, and there's a lot of really good newsletters. But for me, I can only read like 10 a week. So I'm just, but I feel bad. But it's a great way to end. - Yeah. - I feel there's optimism and realism kind of blended together like a great cake. - Well, remember everyone was saying, bookstores are gonna close, you know, or e-books are gonna take over. - Yeah. - And even though everybody has Amazon Prime now, people, this bookstore and the rent here is probably phenomenal, but they're able to exist here. So people are still buying books. - Absolutely. - And you have, you know, two, you have this kitchen arts and letters. - Yeah. - And they've been there for a while. - And you know what? - Wilds. - Wildsoral. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Not something. - It's not any slotniks still. - Bonnie's slotniks around. But Wildsoral and Thirteenth Street, this is a great bookstore too. You're giving them a lot of business tonight. Wildsoral is great. Thirteenth Street go there, opened a few weeks ago, really trippy bookstore. Another hand for David Liebowitz. You've been a great crowd. (soft music) This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Barbonal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumburt and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Raidell, episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy, logo designed by Ellie Scurza and Ian Dingham. Visit TasteOnline at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.