Dave Chappelle on free speech, the purpose of comedy and the weaponization of jokes

My favorite part of my evolution was when I quit. Do you feel like your job is to be provocative? No, I don't, I don't court it. I just don't flinch from it. But if you're a person that's very angry or passionate about something and you feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across, you should assess your point. This is Newsmakers. NPR's biggest interviews. I'm Steve Inskeep. We question some of the most influential people of our time. Make sure to follow this show wherever you listen or subscribe to the NPR YouTube channel so you get the latest episode as soon as it's available. Today, NPR's Michelle Martin is your host. Dave Chappelle is one of the most influential stand-up comedians of our time. He's known for pushing the boundaries of what it's okay to say in public. He also uses his influence to advance the causes he believes in in his art and in his community. Now, you probably know that. But what you may not know is that he lives here in Yellow Springs, Ohio. And that's what we begin our conversation. Thank you for having us. Oh, man. What an honor. What an honor. Tell us where we are. Well, this is my future offices for my production company. And what they call the old Union Schoolhouse in Yellow Springs, Ohio, which we have just completely renovated for our local NPR affiliate, WISO. Is it too strong to say that you saved the station? Save the station, no. I think the station would have survived and hopefully thrive without me. But what I did achieve is I kept them here in Yellow Springs. So our NPR affiliate has a very special relationship with the community. It's like our lifeblood. It's a connective tissue for our community. So if they had left, we would still listen. But it would have been demoralizing for us if they were to have to do that. And they had reached an impasse where they had got independence from the university. They should be affiliated with Antioch. And they wanted to stay in town, but there was nothing available. And this place. The building was in disrepair, as I understand it, as they were in. This place was a shambles. But when I was growing up, this building was vibrant and was like a municipal building. They would come here to pay their power bill and stuff like that. And then as the years went on, it had a few other purposes, but it just kind of, you got to run down, like most of the Midwest had just kind of was looking for a new purpose. It was not an expensive building to buy. It was an expensive building to fix. But it was worth every penny, like. Remind us if you would, because some people know your story, but everybody doesn't. Why Yellow Springs is so important to you? Well. And you live here now? I live here. I've been living here since like 2000. And you live live here, and this is not your summer place, like you live live here, right? Yeah, like my only homes are here, but I have many homes here. I'm from DC, both my parents are, but before I was born, my father worked at Antioch University, my mother worked at Will before us. They came back to DC. I was born. And then maybe two years into my life, they separated. And then my father moved back here. So I don't have many memories of them married, but he was very present in my life, and I would spend holidays and vacations here with him. So I guess I've always associated this place with relaxing. And around 90, 98, he passed. He was ailing for a while, like, so for a year I would drive back and forth from New York to Ohio, and at that time, there was an hotel here that was nowhere to stay. And so I ended up by the house, just a small place, and so I could see my dad out. And then when he passed, I left New York and moved into the house and kind of packed up show business and didn't go back to New York until I did Chappelle Show. That's, I've not just been here ever since. Yeah, but you could live wherever you want. This is like a heart place for you? Yeah. Well, I think earlier that time in my career, I didn't know that I'd do as well as I did. And I figured I should build a lifestyle for myself that I can afford for a while so I could be more adventurous with my career. And. Well, I've also heard you say that you can feel normal here. Without question. What does that, tell me what that means. Nobody here really pays attention to what I'm doing out in the world. It's hard. I don't know what that's like for them, but I'm just a local here. In a small town, everyone knows everyone anyway. And they knew me poor, they knew me rich, you know me, and all these different incarnations myself. So there's just a baseline of normalcy. You know, everyone kind of grew up together, you know, we watched our kids grow older together. And we all kind of segue in life together. I know, did you hear me so and so past, did you, you know, you look after each other, it's a real feeling of community here. And you can just go to the store and get your whatever without. I was grocery shopping before I came. Is that right? Yeah. You didn't bring us anything. What'd you bring us? Oh, I didn't bring them. I didn't bring them. Really, you can just go to the store and get a milk and don't have to worry about somebody putting a camera in your face or. No, people. No disrespect to cameras, but I'm just saying you can just go do your thing without feeling like you have to get dressed up or. I'd say get even further than that. I feel like locally, my privacy is something people feel they need to protect. Like if someone comes up like, "Hey, where's Dave's pellet?" And they're like, you know, they just, they just look out for me. They look out for my kids, they, you know, they look out for my wife. I know their families. If they need stuff they can cause. And they know when here is a complete stranger that happens very rarely. The town is a tourist town, so there's always people around that I don't know, but I like that as well. I love people. And that. I'm not living a hermit's life out of you. But the rest of my life is so chaotic and so large and dramatic and power-centric and whatever that happens in show business. And I connect with the simplicity. I do have time to think, I have time to read, I have time to hang out with my friends. It's a nice, you know, it's a nice life, it's a nice balance for my life is in total. In your recent Netflix special, the unstoppable you were talking about, Yellow Springs, and you said, "I'm not a public servant, I'm a capitalist." But you're a capitalist and you came in to give a major boost to a public radio station. So is that an investment, is it a service, is it a philanthropy, is it. Maybe all of the above, you know, you think about what a comedian does for living. People, I'm successful because people take care of me, because they believe me, because they buy tickets and get babysitters and go through trouble to come see me. And so I treat it like it's reciprocally special. I love being there as much as they love being there. And I think it's important, fun artists like me, I'm putting this on all artists, but fun artists like me, that relationship is something I'm true to in the sense that it's good that I demonstrate that I don't take it for granted that people are protective of my privacy in my community, or that we have a radio station that tells our stories. I like my son in W.I.S.O. and it ignited things in his mind and gave him aspirations that he didn't have before. I won't talk about what his dreams are, but I'm just saying, "Here, this station really does touch our lives. It's not just radio here." Which, you know, there have been major figures, major, okay, I'll just say, rich people who have wrapped their arms around media organizations before, and it has gotten inconvenient for them, or it's misaligned with their other business objectives, and they've changed what the organization is. So do you feel confident that if this place becomes inconvenient to you, you're not going to, I don't know, cut the water off or. Oh, here, man, it's church and state, look, in fact, one only reason I'm doing press around it is because I think the ethical community needs to be amplified and I think that the importance of public broadcasts needs to be amplified, but other than that, I like talking, I'm a filthy nightclub comics and some of my kids in my court, that's all I see myself as. And I don't want to say anything that gets them in trouble. I don't want their brand to necessarily be affiliated with me, I don't believe everything they say, they don't believe everything I say, and it's fine, but I like that NPR exists. Let's say, for the sake of argument, they cover a story involving some of your business is the centrist in town in a way that you don't like. What's you gonna do? - Well, cross that bridge. I mean, it's happened before. Well, I've heard them say things or criticisms of my work on the station or on NPR. I mean, that's part of my job. But the relationship that this place has with our community pre-existed in my career. You know what I mean? I can't really take that personally. But in fact, the more separate we are, I think the more comfortable we feel. But at the same time, you know, it's familial. - Do you see journalism and comedy being related in some way? - Incredibly. - How so? - Well, first of all, journalists determine what the baseline reality is. You guys, there's been times where I could write an act that's just a rebuttal to reporting. Right, now there's cable reporting, which is a lot more editorializing. What I like about NPR's reporting, is fact-based, but you'll cut the meat. The journalists will ask the question I'm thinking, "Well, what does that mean? "Tell us what that means." And the person will explain something. And the last three, the last 10 years, watching the news is like taking a civics class. Because there's so many things that are happening in politics and whatever that are unprecedented. And you have to explain to a person, well, this is why this is unusual. And you know, whatever the case may be, this contextualization is what comedians do. We're like a nation's kidney. We help everyone metabolize, not just facts, but feelings around facts or ideas. And in the last 15, 20 years, our culture and our media has been an avalanche of facts and ideas. It's very difficult to sift through. And at that time, you've seen comedy rise up to the top of all genres, because it does help people contextualize. - It's similar about that, about comedy being like the nation's kidneys. I've heard you say this before. You used some language I can't use, but it involved, you know, as you put out, let's put it, how can we put it in ways that won't jeopardize my license? - Oh, I'm like, what did I say? - We're like, we're helping people process all the. - Yeah, we, and you, we really do. - Get it out of here, but let's say more about that, because the implication then is that you're engaged with the. Dick Gregory wants to describe Richard Pryor's work as brain surgery, or if, you know, you know, you don't want to go into the specifics of things that sound staged, but there's a lot of big ideas that people have feelings about. And there's no real context to compensate or rebut them. And jokes are just a shorthand for all of that. And sometimes it could be as simple as just laughing at something, or making light of something, just makes it feel less daunting, you know. - Do you feel like your job is to be provocative? I'm just thinking about the adjectives that are applied to you. Provocative, controversial, polarizing, any of that? - No, I don't, I don't court it. Because at the core, man, again, my core, I'm a filthy nightclub actress. I started in smoky rooms in DC, and, you know, and black crowds, and, you know, white crowds, and people had drinks, and they just grew rough and said what they said back then. And it was never a big deal. And then as the time went on, people, you know, the culture started trying to renegotiate itself. And that's a great time to be a comedian. - When you say, I'm thinking about the role that a lot of black comics have played for, particularly for black people. A lot of times it's a release. It's too, because a lot of times I think a lot of black people feel the way they have to navigate the world is to keep things stuffed down, right, to fair. So I think that a lot of black comedians, their role has often been to give people a release, to let them say the things that they can't say when they're going to their job or whatever, whatever. But now you are international. I mean, people all over the world watch you, listen to you, certainly not just black audiences listen to you. And I wonder, do you feel like your job is different now? - Well, no, the mechanics are the same. Now I'm an ambassador of a genre more than I was. I'm an ambassador of American culture more than I was. If I put a show up in Berlin or Vienna, people come and see me. They're coming to see me as an American voice as much as a black one. Even in the States, they might not see it that way. All the season, I got all that flack for doing that festival in Saudi Arabia, but in Saudi, I don't think that festival would have been legitimate if I wasn't there. - Same way about that, same way about that. - I'm not the biggest comedian, but my voice is sort of after. In Saudi Arabia for the last 20 years, they've been doing really maybe 15 years. They've been trying to do comedy shows in Saudi Arabia. Underground shows, the jokes were like contraband. These shows would happen in people's homes. They would happen in embassies. You know, comedians like Marge, Jabrani, and guys like this. They've been going over there for years and doing these shows. - Privately. - Privately. - Yeah, close to being private. Whatever, I don't know what their laws are. For the elites, basically, people who. - No, for necessarily the elites. But yeah, for people who could have a house like that. I don't know what those shows were like, 'cause they didn't do those shows. - Okay, yeah. - The first time I can remember doing a big show in the Middle East, my opening act was a guy named Mo Amber, who's a Palestinian-American from Houston, but originally from Kuwait, but he's Palestinian. And Mo was probably on that circuit during the Seagal Shows in Saudi. And man, the thing that was remarkable was the crowd reaction. Right before I went on stage, actually funny. Right before I went on stage, they gave me a list of all the things I wasn't supposed to address. It was like right before I went on stage. So I took the list on stage, and that was the show. I just did the list. Don't talk about the real families. That y'all are not this big fun in them. Man, they were screaming. (laughing) Then after the show, I'm backstage at a meet and greet. And there was all these young comedians from all over the Middle East. They were looking at me and like, I wouldn't even know that they'd know who I am. They couldn't believe I was there. They kept saying, you just say that, you just say that stuff? Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's my big deal, my mind. But I never forgot that. And that was in Dubai, man, in Riyadh, that crowd watching that comedy. The first time the government let them even see something like this, it was like a baby tasting sugar. If I had choked the tiger out, they couldn't have been more impressed. They were screaming. You think you're creating space for them? I mean, at the very least, and this is not nothing, that must have felt incredibly cathartic, if you can't say everything you wanna say, but you see somebody model that behavior. Oh, man, you're gonna want it. So if you think of all the violence and all the things we export to the Middle East, I think our culture is the best export we got. But I didn't feel wrong being up there. Yeah, I know we were talking about the Comedy Festival in 2025, you did get a lot of fall. You did get a lot of, I don't know what you'll push back or criticism for going on with other people. Okay, the US intelligence did make it clear that they believed that the Saudis killed Jamal Kishoggi and the embassy in Turkey. And you knew that when you went, right? Oh, absolutely not. I should tell you. You had no qualms? I wanna say that, they asked me to go years before that. And I said no, for that very reason. Since that time, the United States government does business with the Saudis. Netflix does business with Saudis. Every one of the Saudis financed tons of movies. All these, I know I see them financing boxing matches and all these things. And none of these things won't issue until I went there. And why is that? As soon as a black man can make money off the plantation, they try to tell you that the money is dirty. Well, okay, I'll go home and spend the money with actual slave owners on it. Where is this clean money you're talking about? But you said you hesitated for years to go. The years you didn't go. So what made the difference for you? Time. Time in circumstance. Time in the wheels of commerce kept turning. If you wanna be that pure about money, then stop driving your car. Stop eating. Don't use your cell phone. Everything is tethered to something that's just terrible. And I can make a million excuses of reasons to deprive that crowd at that show. But man, when I was standing in front of them, I felt like I did the right thing. Our governments are gonna ruin everything for us. We'll never get to know each other. If we just do everything that they wanna do, or function on the terms that they want us to function. And we don't even really know what's going on. Not for sure. - Well, artists have always made these decisions. I mean, there were these decisions in South Africa under apartheid, you know? There were decisions about whether artists should go there or not go. And then the question is, are you validating the system or are you resisting it with your presence? - I mean, look, in the middle of apartheid, if I went and played Sun City, that's not my bad person. But if I went and played Soweto, why would I not do that? If, you know, okay, I'll give you another example. Not a good example. I'm doing a show, there's a police officer killed a black person. And the black community asked me to cancel the show. We don't want artists to come. We want a boycott. - Is that an Ohio? Was that in Cincinnati? - Yeah, exactly. - Was it Cincinnati? - Yeah. I respect the deal wishes. But it's like, all we could have gotten together and talked about it, you know? And I like, I mean, I'm sad, I like doing that. But I do that often, when Minneapolis was going through with it. And maybe when they, I was in Paris, when they killed Alex Pretti and the man, I booked the show in Minneapolis right after they killed it, got it, man, they're gonna need to talk about this. And that was nervous, and another situatops market in Buffalo. - Yeah, Buffalo. - Man killed like 10 black people. - 10 black people, I'm provoked in the grocery store. - Yeah. - That happened right after I got tackled in LA at the Hollywood boat. But man, I went to Buffalo, you know? It's not that I think that jokes help. But you can console certain communities with your presence or just acknowledge it that you see them and that you hurt with them. - You feel like you're lancing the boil in a way for people or just what, giving them a place to feel their feelings or-- - Okay, well one is mutual. The top's market they'd be so upsetting and I wanna be there, you know? Like I have a friend from Buffalo who's, that's their local grocery store, his mother's shop's there. Like thank God she was all right, but it just, it hits close to home. - But what about people who feel like you're punching down? - Like you're not, you are not a trans person and there are people who feel like it's different when you are part of the group that has been attacked, hurt, demeaned, et cetera. And then if you're outside of the group and you're having comments here about it, it causes feelings. And what do you say to people who feel that in some occasions you're punching down? - Well, okay, this is a conversation that, you know-- - You're bored by, sick of. - Yeah, well not sick of it. I don't wanna be dismissive to that sentiment, but I don't know, there's a tough one for me because so much of that was a media phenomenon. What was happening in actual life versus how the media was reporting on my show. And I feel like the way they were put on that show was rage baiting to some degree and there's so many different branches to talk about it. But I would say that, you know, not everything is for everybody. I don't tell country artists what to sing about it if I'm not gonna go see a country show. You know, if they bought tickets ever, maybe I'd listen. I don't know, they just never did. I don't even know who's telling my say these things. - Do you feel like your jokes are misrepresented or do you think they're misrepresented or that for a purpose, which is too? - It's almost, what some reporting was as it, they almost reported on it as if I was doing something other than a comedy show. - Hmm. - You know, I could go on and on about this, but I got to be. - Interesting, so like you're saying, look, I'm a comedian, everybody knows I'm a comedian. So if you don't like my humor, don't buy a ticket. - Reading a joke is a lot different than sitting in a room. And hearing it and part of the sitting in the room part, part of one of the reasons comedy works is because everyone that bought a ticket, clearly, they wanted to work, they wanna have a good time, they wanna have fun. But if you're a person that is very angry or passionate about something and you're afraid that you're gonna be misrepresented or misconstrued and you feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across. You should assess your point. - I heard you say, when you receive the Mark Twain Award, which is a very big honor and congratulations. - Thank you, thank you, thank you. - I mean, it's really the highest recognition that this country really gives somebody in your field. And one of the things that you said that struck me was that, if you go to a comedy club somewhere in America, your feelings and thoughts are represented. - Every opinion has a champion. - And say more about that though, why do you think that matters? - Because it's important because every opinion that you could think of is championed in a room. I don't silence your champions. In fact, I make space for your champions to have a voice. But I'm not your champion. And I am someone else's. You can't silence the team that you don't like what they're saying. But you do have the opportunity to go on after 'em. Say your piece. This is happening to me so many times in my career, but a guy will say something and I'm like, "Oh, I don't feel a way about it." I don't think that they should be silenced, but I can't wait to go put me up next. - And I'm gonna have what I have to say about it. - I got you know, I got you. And then afterwards we go upstairs, we might talk shit, but we have fairly cordial. There's people who say things that I'm like on time, I go to the kids' birthdays, I go to the, I go to the generals. Like these are the comedians I came up with. And if I see these same people throughout my life, then clearly they're part of my community. And everyone's in it, there's, you know, transstand of comedians, there's every sexuality, every kind of identity. And we support one another. - You know what's interesting though? You know, we are in a time when, I know you talked about comedians as being like the nation's kidney who process like all the things that people feel, like all of it, right? The president of the United States says everything. I mean he, we are in a moment where the president of the United States expresses things in a way. He expresses things that many people find deeply offensive. He expresses them in a way that many people find deeply offensive and hurtful. And I'm just wondering, does that change your work? Because it's one thing to be a person who articulates the rawness when the rest of the world is buttoned up. But what about when the rest of the world isn't buttoned up? And I just wonder if that changes things for you. You know what I'm saying? - And he's a bad example because he has a dismissive shorthand about people, like a comedian who flip their tongue. It's a much, it's a way different type of interface than say being president of the United States. Because-- - Oh, it's a totally different job. I credit that, but I'm saying-- - No, I'm saying, I'm talking about not just that job, but the actual interface, how we actually are communicating to people. - Look, see more. - Well, the presidency is the presidency. Like, you know, if you vote for the person tonight, that's your president. This is an authority figure. This is the top law enforcement agencies. The top, you know, he's the executive of all of America's affairs. And I just have to move my crowd, you know. You can opt out of my crowd. But you shouldn't have to leave America because the president's making the block too hot for you. So, you know, and I did resent that the Republican Party ran on transgender jokes. You know, I felt like they were doing a weaponized version of what I was doing. I didn't-- it's not what I was doing with that. I give an example. As before, I learned the phrase, "I respectfully decline." And I was on Capitol Hill. And everybody ran up to take pictures with me from every Congressional office. And I just take pictures with whoever I as. I didn't ask how they voted or what their voting record is. And everyone, at first, was like CBC people. And then here comes Dawn Bobert. And she said, "Can I get a picture?" And I'd already taken 40 pictures. I didn't want to say no for everybody. But I didn't know the phrase, "I respectfully decline." So I just took the picture. And then she posted a picture. Before I could even get from there to the show and say something to the effect of just two people that knew that it's just two generations. She instantly like weaponized it or politicized it. So I got to the arena. And I let her ass up for doing that. And she should never do that person like me. But now she knows. Now she knows what's up. Yeah. You do whatever it is you do. But don't give me out of the splash of your-- Some people think the president's funny. I've had people say this to me. I've interviewed people that said, "Well, what do you like about them?" He's funny. Do you think he's funny? Maybe if he was in president, I think that was funny. Or maybe at times, I mean, I do think, you know, that's where, then, there are funny things about him. Like, if I were to talk about him, I could, I could, it would be funny. But I think what he does is so consequential. And so much of these things, you know, in my lifetime, I've never really seen anything, a phenomenon quite like him. I'm not trying to be political, but it's remarkable. I don't know, I don't know how funny it is. Do you feel, given the platform that you now have, and the fact that people seek you out, does that change your sense of responsibility for the work? No. No. No. For my work, no. I mean, listen, I could personally say, I don't want to. That's a tough question. There is a thing that happens when an artist gets bigger. The platform gets bigger. There's an expectation that you behave a certain way. And that's kind of the box that I fell for in Chappelle Show. Well, I don't fall for it, but I was overwhelmed by that idea. It's a lot of responsibility. But I've come to the understanding that, you know, you have to be true to your work. That's the job. And if that makes you big, so be it. But then what happens is you get bigger, and then you start being true to being big. And that's a mistake. Stay true to your work, say what you have to say. If being big informs me in such a way that I feel like I don't want to step on any answer or any blades of grass, and I don't want to hurt anybody, then so be it. That's what I decide. But I have yet to make those types of decisions. I don't feel like anything I do is malicious or even harmful. And I think if I did hurt somebody with my work, or they would have been laid there at my feet, I just never just not doing that. If you feel like your life has had chapters, or your career has had chapters, I mean, there was the chapter when you were trying to make it. And then there's the Chappelle show chapter where you blew up and became like this big cultural figure. And then you took this break and kind of did your own thing. You became known as the guy who walked away from $50 million. It's like, you've got some of it later, I understand. But there is that chapter where you took a break and kind of recalibrated yourself. What do you think this chapter is? What would you say this chapter is? Well, that's a good question. Man, it's a really good question. OK, for context, like I started doing stand-up when I was 14. So OK, you'd think about it a couple of ways. Your evolution artistically, your evolution professionally. But also, your evolution is like a man. As a 14, as a funny 14-year-old, it's so much different than when I've become. So much of that was because of life experiences. So the chapter, while I'm trying to make it, that early chapter-- I'm in high school. And then the first big hurdle is the decision to defer going to college. I'm going to go to New York and try to-- so then there's the New York years. And there's all the professional milestones and the television deals, and high hopes, and heart breaks, and all that. And then you meet a girl and they fall in love. And then we have kids, and then I move back to Ohio, and I wouldn't expect them to-- there's all these personal. So my favorite part of my evolution was when I quit. And it was the hardest part. I mean, quitting was one part of hardwood. But then in the years after that was another kind of hard. But artistically, and as a guy, there's certain things that I became in that time that I love about myself. And I didn't realize until COVID when I was just sitting in the house, trapped with all my choices. And I said, these were not bad choices. I was like, you know, it could have been better. But boy, it could have been worse. I like my kids. I like my wife. I like why I live. I like my friends. I like my community. And I have records. Thank God. That was the best. Like 2020 was the first time that I realized that time had molded me into something that I love. So this time in my life, I feel like I'm like this. I feel like I'm paying my bills for that time in my life. Well, before we let you go, I noticed that you've been doing shows around the country. I know I went to the one in DC. And you close by telling your audiences to keep your wits about you. And you stay stay together. We'll stay sane together and take care of each other. That's right. And tell me why. You kind of end with a group hug. Because I feel like a lot of Americans that don't travel overseas don't really know what it feels like to be an American. You could think you feel some way about somebody. But man, when Americans see each other overseas, we give each other this fight club look, especially if you overseas or an ex-pad or something like that. There's something we know about the broth that living in this place feels like. That only we really know. And at that time, and even more so since that time, that I did that said, information and the types of things we're hearing every day in the news and seeing around us, it's almost like a psychological torture. Well, we're collectively going through. The amount of animosity we have for one another and the anger gets stuck. So that show that night, I think I said that because it did feel so good to be together. And because at that time, the National Guard was in DC. And there was still a lot of local uncertainty which why I came. It's like my hometown is going through it. And man, the joy in being together, they got a fight for that to just sit in the room and not be afraid to get murdered like Charlie Kirk or Stampede or trample. It takes so much courage sometimes just to come see a show and they come and we're together. And I feel like the exercise is doing that show. It's like people actively trying to stay sane together. Let's just stay at it. Remember how good it feels to be together? Take care of one another. Even a smile if that's all you can muster is charity. But man, as much goodwill as you can put out there, it's priceless right now. And it will get us through this time. It's just terrible, terrible weather. But you don't want you resolved to get so weak that you accept this time as a normal way of being and being together and laughing through things and all these active steps to healing and getting past it. So I promote that. They should help. Thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you for talking to me. [MUSIC PLAYING] New episodes of this show can and will publish at any time. Make sure you stay ahead by following the show wherever you listen. You can also subscribe and watch every episode on NPR's YouTube channel. Newsmakers relies on supporters who value independent journalism and are free press. You can join NPR Plus today to support our work and get perks from the podcasts you trust. Just go to plus.npr.org. I'm Steve Innskeep. Thanks for listening to NPR's Newsmakers.