Dating Again: Healing the Past, Embracing the Present with Elizabeth Earnshaw

[MUSIC PLAYING] Hello and welcome to Reimagining Love. I'm Dr. Alexandra Solomon. Relationships have the power to wound us and the power to heal us. As a clinical psychologist, author, and professor at Northwestern University, I've devoted my life to studying intimate partnerships and family dynamics. On Reimagining Love, I'm here to translate complex clinical topics into tools and takeaways that you can use in your relationships today. If you're ready to develop relational self-awareness and create vibrant and loving relationships with the people who matter most to you, you've come to the right place. I'm so glad that you're here. [MUSIC PLAYING] Today, I'm joined by the very wonderful Liz Ernstshaw, who's helping me with a great listener question from a single, recently divorced man. He's interested in getting back out there in the dating world, but has concerns about the experience for his potential partner, his children, and himself. I'm thrilled to have Liz by my side to provide ideas and reflections for this listener and for any of you who may be in a similar situation. Liz is a licensed marriage and family therapist and clinical fellow of the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy. She's the head therapist, actually, where she's working to make relational wellness mainstream and accessible. She also owns a better life therapy in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Liz is the author of a new book. I want this to work an inclusive guide to navigating the most difficult relationship issues we face in the modern age. Liz and I initially connected through Instagram, and I am really enjoying getting to know her. I admire her thoughtfulness and her practicality, and I'm excited to introduce her to you. So let's dive in. Hi, Liz. I'm so glad that you are here with me today. I am so excited to be here. I've been waiting to be interviewed by you and to talk with you on this podcast. So on this podcast, reimagining love, I really like to start with our guest experts by asking a relational self-awareness question that reminds all of us that we get to be whole and works in progress at the very same time. So Liz, are you ready for your question? I'm very ready for it. I love this question. I would love to hear about a growing edge that you are currently working on in one of your important relationships and what that growing edge has been teaching you lately. I am working on not being so critical. That is what I am working on in my marriage with my husband. I don't mean to be if I'm frustrated. I am more likely to use critical language like you never do this or why didn't you see that or why aren't you working on X, Y and Z. And so something I've really been trying to work on is becoming more able to step back, slow down and express what I need, express myself more gently, ask questions, pick my battles. And something I've learned about myself is it's actually something I can do when I am making a committed effort to build awareness around it. It's been nice to see. You have had these experiences where you watch yourself doing it differently. You know that if you are mindful, if you are intentional, if you slow down, you can actually get to the same endpoint with your husband by a different means. So you're like watching yourself have these different experiences. Yeah, actually an even better endpoint, right? Because the alternate endpoint would then be that he was defensive and then we wouldn't get anywhere. So what I have been able to see is that we go in a much better direction. And like you said, I witness myself doing this. And in the beginning, when I first made a commitment to change it, I would witness myself still being critical. So I'd be like, why am I still saying this? I know I don't want to speak this way. And now I witness myself doing it differently. And it's amazing. It's like, wow, you can change things when you pay attention to them. I love it. And it becomes easier, becoming easier with practice. Yes, easier but not perfect. For sure. Easier but not perfect, right? As the good Gottman therapist that you are reminding all of us, you know, Gottman has these four horsemen of the apocalypse, right? These behavioral patterns of criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt. So probably we're going to have to have you just go ahead and talk all those through. But what you're saying is that the dance that you and your husband are at risk of getting into is the criticism defensiveness. So when I said, there's different ways to get to the same end point. You reminded me, actually, by you working on being less critical, you give your husband a chance to not have to respond with defensiveness and that when he responds with defensiveness, your whole original need, yearning, longing, legitimate concern goes by the wayside. Because now he's defending. He's sort of saying, yeah, but you didn't, and yeah, but you don't. And then there you are still with this unmet need. Yes. And then probably criticizing him for his defensiveness. So then at that point, we've gotten onto a completely different path than where I'd hoped it had gone. And like you pointed out, I'm a gotman therapist. And one of the biggest things we work on with couples is to not utilize criticism and defensiveness. And so it's a little bit funny that that is the thing within myself that I need to work on so much in my relationship with my husband and probably other people as well. I know. And even in the gotman research, it doesn't have to be-- there's nowhere in the research that says that the only way to have a stable marriage is 100% perfection. Thank goodness. I know for me, I am at far greater risk of being critical. If my husband was sitting here, he'd be like, oh, really, Liz, you're critical. Let's maybe Alexander can talk a bit about her tendency towards criticism as well. So I'm in that boat right there with you. And I know for me, I am far more at risk of being critical of Todd when I've been critical of myself. If I'm treating myself like crap, if I'm being perfectionistic with myself, if I'm overworking, if I'm not holding space for rest, you better believe I'm going to be basically showing him with my criticism what I've been doing to myself all day. Is that-- does that work that way for you? Absolutely, 100%. When I am critical of Andrew, it is almost always in moments where I'm overwhelmed. And I don't think I have in those moments much reflection around that's because I've been hard on myself. But when I step back, it's always something I'm hard on myself about. Oh my gosh, the house looks terrible. And that's not anything that I'm being even hard on him about necessarily. The initial pain point there was, I'm a bad housekeeper. Or I'm not doing a good job as a mom, because the playroom looks like crap or whatever it is. But then what happens is I see him. And I'll see him sitting on the couch enjoying his life. And I'm like, how could you enjoy your life in a moment like that? There is no time for enjoyment. There is no time. Our child is suffering in this playroom. That's right. [LAUGHS] I'm afraid you're probably like, what just happened? What just happened? That's right. And it is. I mean, there's a whole piece here that is about especially for heterosexual couples, unequal distribution of domestic labor and emotional labor. And that's a whole side conversation that perhaps you will have to come back on and have that conversation with me. And there's a way in which the Andrews and the couch and you're aware of the mess that probably reflects some larger gender role socialization. But I oftentimes think that when I have that reaction to Todd's relaxation, there's a piece of it that's projection. I'm projecting onto him. There's an envy there. Look at you giving yourself permission to do something that I am not giving myself permission to do. So in that moment, he's like this live-in teacher where I'm watching him relax. I'm watching my reaction to his relaxation and I'm being invited into a number of possibilities. And one, maybe. There may be times where the ask is, I know you've had a long day as well. I would love if we could spend 10 minutes in this playroom and then both relax. So sometimes it is an ask. But sometimes it is, I wonder what it might be like for me to give myself permission to relax even with a playroom that looks the way this playroom looks. Yeah, Andrews actually great at reminding me of that all the time. We've had a lot of mental load conversations. Like you said, that's an entire other issue. But that is actually not really an issue in our marriage anymore. So the majority of the time, its projection when I'm upset. Because my husband actually left his job and he does the majority of our household work. So anything that I'm getting upset about recently is like I'm mad that you're relaxing and that I'm not relaxing and I'm overwhelmed and like you were saying being able to lean into that has been so important for me and he's really good like he'll take my hand and be like be please just like put your phone down put down the broom put down whatever you were wild thing you were about to do you don't need to hang more Halloween decorations like why don't you just sit down like I'll go pick up food we don't even need to cook so he really tries to help me learn how to have what he calls the nothing box which is nothing box you're allowed to literally be a nothing box of a human like you don't have to have anything inside of you right now you don't have to think you don't have to do you just be a dead like sit on the couch and be a dead and that's what he will say to remind me to be a nothing box person okay I'm just imagining all these listeners right now like imagining themselves like getting to be a nothing box it's like the thing that therapists love to say we're human beings not human doing yes so we you get to just be yes yeah he always tells me my box is just always too busy and too full and has like mechanical toys in it moving around and it just needs to like be dumped out like go set alone and be by yourself yeah I mean I imagine there's that you and I are similar around there's something about the work that we have chosen to do in addition to being clinicians to choose to do things like write books which I want to make sure we talk about your new book that there's this ambition needs and deserves to be honored right because your ambition is a reflection of your passion and I know for me there's a both and my ambition and my drive are a reflection of my passion and my ambition and my drive sometimes are reflections of this wound I carry which is that I've I'm still to this day this far along at times get stuck kind of hustling for worthiness right like that I have to have the next big thing in order to feel like I'm accomplishing something or keeping up so it's hard when both things are true because I also know that the things that I choose and that I thrive on spending time working on are things that I am deeply passionate about and they are reflections of who I am and I'm also where there is this shadowy aspect of them also yeah yeah at least we put those wounds into something we actually like otherwise it would kind of suck at least I actually really do love what I do I love decorating the house for Halloween these are all things that I like to do and like you said there's also this piece of it where it's like why can't I sit still and am I able to look at that and allow myself to do that sometimes looping it back around so that I don't become critical of myself and so that I don't then become critical of other people just to deal with that worthiness wound that's right that's right that's right so I'm aware that a thread that we have to weave back in before we move on to our listener question which is a fabulous listener question is I kind of previewed the four horsemen of the apocalypse and I suspect that some people who are listening are kind of nerdy enough folks that they are familiar with John Gottman and with the four horsemen of the apocalypse but I wonder if you could just give us a little bit of a framework I think that would be a nice kind of nugget for people to take away if they aren't familiar with it can you give us a brief I would love to okay good it's one of my favorite things to talk about so in decades of research that Dr. John Gottman has done with couples one of the things that he's found is that there are these four communication habits that if they are chronic and I like that you said earlier we're not looking for perfection you're going to see any of these in your relationship many points throughout your relationship if they're chronic what happens is they lead to something called the distance and isolation cascade which means that over time if you keep doing these things which I'll explain in a second you're going to stop trying to connect with each other you're going to feel isolated from each other and then worst case scenario the relationship could end so we really want to work on of waiting them so these four things are called the four horsemen to symbolize the end of times it's very dark but what we are is criticism which is when you take a problem and you put that problem into the character of your partner so play rooms a mess is the actual problem but what I'm doing instead is I'm saying the play rooms a mess because of your character it's because you're lazy you don't care about us defensiveness is often a reaction to perceived criticism perceived is really important there because sometimes the person was being critical of you and sometimes they're just hitting of on mobility and so you're responding with some defensiveness but that's when you do everything to not take responsibility which looks like a lot of energy so explaining yourself saying yes but counter-criticizing so that would be like if my husband said if you only knew how much I was doing all day with our son then you would understand why the play room is a mess and maybe you should have organized the toys differently when you were in here last time or maybe you should stop buying them so many toys so that's defensiveness the third of the horseman is stonewalling which is exactly as it sounds it's when you're trying to communicate with someone and they look like a stone wall or you are trying to communicate and you feel like you have a stone wall blocking you so there's words you wish you could get out but they will not come out and that's often related to being really physiologically overwhelmed so racing heart feeling threatened tense muscles parts of your brain turn off so that you don't have those relational skills like humor and problem solving and curiosity and all those things you need to communicate and then the final of the horseman is contempt which is criticism supercharged so it sounds like criticism except it has a dose of being superior so it's not just me saying oh why are you sitting there you're being so lazy it's me saying your mother would be as jamed of you if she came over here and saw this play room I don't even understand what's wrong with you so there's this disgust right you could even hear my voice change you could see my face you would see that like half of it goes up I start looking like I smell something bad and contempt is the worst of all four because really it kind of starts to border on some emotional abuse it has shown that there is not this level of respect that you would want to see in a relationship and it's also often a sign of some wounding you know either wounding in the relationship or wounding that you have from the past when it comes to managing difficult feelings so that's a kind of quick but also long overview of the horseman it's so helpful I it's what I've been grateful for about Gottman's research for so many years is the way that he gives us snapshots and pictures so when I'm doing a couple of therapy session I'm just bracketing framing reflecting like it's just so powerful I was in a couple of therapy session before this now and I was tracking there's the criticism there's the you know defensiveness and I'm like pausing the defensive partner and inviting him into some different language like it's the most helpful research around helping us as couples therapists understand how to make sense of what we're seeing because when you're working with a couple you're seeing a lot that's happening very quickly and then also as important if not more important it's so helpful for us as intimate partners for couples to start to learn and understand aha there's that pattern and I love that none of them they're not labeled they're not these like capital T essential truths about who we are as people that they're immutable, unchangeable right they are behavioral interactive patterns as you're saying that oftentimes they can reflect deeper wounds but even the stuff that's deeper wounds we get to and we can have possibilities for healing and doing it differently so for every one of those horsemen you were pointing us towards other ways of saying it other things we can do right it's about pausing about regulating our physiology with the example of you and Andrew asking for what you need and how that when we ask for what we need has gotten we call a soft startup right for you to make the ask invite your partner to respond rather than defend absolutely absolutely and I think that this goes back to what we were talking about in terms of what's my edge that I'm working on because I have these words I was able to identify something in myself that without them I might not have been able to right it would have just been this nebulous like for some reason any time I bring up a problem we get into a fight but because I know these conceptualizations I'm like oh that's criticism and not that I'm a critical person but I'm using criticism and can I figure out how to use something different and I think that's what we can all do is not label our ourselves but just look at it as one choice of a behavior out of many options that we can pick from. Yep, I love it. I love it. Okay, my dear. Let's move on to our listener question. I can't wait. This is such a good one. Oh, it's such a good one. I want to hear what you have to say. Yeah, it's well likewise. Okay. So this listener question comes from a man in Texas. He uses he/him pronouns, but he's asked that we not use his name. So what he wrote in is this. I am in my mid-40s with four kids spanning elementary to high school age. I've been separated since 2019 and finalized divorce in 2020. We were married for almost 18 years. With four kids, it takes both of us to keep the kids' lives humming along. I want to begin the process of opening up to a partner again, but I'm very concerned and fearful that I won't have enough time to commit to a relationship and that that's not fair to the woman I might date, even if I do my best to set clear expectations. Is this a false narrative looping in my head that is in reality easily managed? Or are there some legitimate obstacles in this scenario that I need to be mindful of? I will just invite you to start. Where do you want to start us? I think that there's so much to look at here and as you were talking, one of the words that came to mind is the word "and" and I think that's a huge word here for us to look at, which is so many of the things that this person said are true, right? And some of them might not be. And that's why I think this is probably so challenging for him, is that there is no clear answer for me to necessarily give, right? Like I'm imagining if he was sitting in front of me, I would say absolutely there's true obstacles like these are totally legitimate concerns. I have one child for a lot of work and there's navigating and shuffling schedules and then whatever emotional energy and there's a lot and some of it could be related to a narrative and some of it could be related to some fears that might be able to be overcome and some of it could be related to more tactical things like are there good boundaries? Are you making time for yourself? Have you processed that you're allowed to have time for yourself? And so the first thing that I thought of was "and" yes, absolutely complicated, a lot of work, maybe it wouldn't be fair to this other person, I don't really know because I don't know them yet because we are only imagining them. And I wonder what else is going on beneath. I love the idea of "and" and you use the word "complex" I think that's true, like I would want him to imagine complexities rather than obstacles and he's really wise, like I so admire the amount of introspection and intentionality that it takes to even ask this question. He's got his finger on the pulse of something real here, right? So if we think about the risk of divorce in a first marriage is around 40 to 45% and that varies based on different demographics, but the thing that was really clear in the research is that the risk of divorce in a second marriage is higher than that. It's at least 65%. He's not being silly or extreme to be concerned about how his next relationship will go, asking these questions, not rushing, being thoughtful, being measured, it makes sense. I love the like the timeline here. So he's saying, you know, he's letting us know here we are towards the end of 2021 that his divorce was final in 2020. A dear colleague of mine, J. LeBot, he specializes in divorce, especially difficult divorces and he says that the idea of an easy divorce is basically an oxymoron. Even in the best of situations, divorce is incredibly stressful and most people who are going through a divorce have a sort of chapter that's like a, I don't feel like myself chapter, like I'm not responding to stressors the way that I usually do. I don't feel the way I usually do. A lot of people who are going through a divorce initially meet the criteria for a variety of mental health challenges, but what the research also shows is most of that is very temporary, that it's a huge life chain, a huge transition, but most people come through, including kids, most come through relatively unscored, that the transition is hard and that people come through. So I'm thinking about here he is like well over a year post-diverse, that there's a kind of timeline here and that he maybe I'm hoping he's starting to kind of feel his way back into himself and that's probably why he's able to think, okay, so I'm thinking about maybe this next transition which would be opening up my heart again, opening up my life again and that's got to be scary. I have a lot of empathy for how how big that must feel. Yeah and it is big right? It's so many things, it's starting over with somebody else, it's having to have space for them and time for them and having to shift your life in ways that might make room, but it's also having to meet them in the first place, which that takes up time and energy and exploration about what you want and like you said, I was so impressed with his ability to try to think forward around this, recognizing that there's complexities, but also being honest that it's something that he wants, which I think is really beautiful because I think a lot of times when things feel complex, we can stuff it down and say, I don't need to date anybody right now, it's not a big deal, whatever, I don't have time for them, or we can become major risk takers and say, whatever, I don't care about any of this, I'm just going to dive in and it'll be what it is. And there's something really amazing about his ability to hold both people in mind actually and his desires in mind and his hopes and also the complexities in mind at the same time, like he's really able to look at both of these things, which I think is interesting and really important. And it bodes well, there are going to be moments of loyalty binds. That's the nature of loving again post divorce is that there are going to be like a number of players. He has an ex-wife, he has four kids, and he will have this new partner and he's going to be the sort of like full chrome of that system. He's going to be the mid point. And so a lot of it is going to be him being able to kind of anchor into his own sturdiness, which is all about the aunt. I am an ex-husband, I am a boyfriend, I am a father, I am all of those things as he dates. I'm going to want him to like really practice being present wherever he is. That when he's with his kids, because initially it is not going to blend, you know, the blending of families is going to be way down the road. But initially, I want him to just give himself permission to be where he is. That when he's with his kids, that's the part of him that is in the foreground. He is father to these kids. And that's the part of him that is in the foreground. It's authentic, it's real, it's him. And when he's on a first date or a second date or a third date, that he gets to be fully there. He gets to fully experience himself as a man, as somebody on a date that he gets to give himself permission there. Rather than that feeling that we can get into of we're never fully anywhere. I'm with my kids, but I'm thinking, shoot, what if I was on a date right now? I'm on a date, I'm feeling guilty. I should be with my kids. So I would want him to have a practice of letting himself be fully where he is. And I think that also will help with the decision-making and the boundary management, right? Is like the more present he is with how this feels right now, that will be the clarity from which he can start to make some of those boundary decisions of the pace. And at what point does he talk to the kids? At what point does he introduce the kids? All that stuff. Yeah, as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about how much goes into the process of divorce. And how much problem-solving goes into that. You know, when I'm working with people who are going through a divorce, it's just non-stop. What do I do about finances? Where am I going to live? Where are we going to enroll the kids in school? How should I behave with my ex? How should I do this? What's lawyer? Do I contact? Where do I submit the paperwork? And I'm thinking, as you're asking him to be able to hold on to himself in that identity in those moments, you know, it's like a whole year of just non-stop. Am I doing it right? Have I consulted with the right people? Have I done? And that's really good. And I'm really glad that he's doing it. And here's this word. And again, I want to also encourage him to live and to not do it all perfectly. Yeah. Are you asking him to have a nothingbox? Nothingbox. I'm wondering about how his nothingbox is doing. Is it full of mechanical toys that are just like scrolling, scrolling? Uh-huh. It's full of noisy puzzles and mechanical toys and all sorts of I love that. That's right. Of course he is, right, because the last couple of years of his life has been making lists, checking things off, one decision after the next. Of course, what you're picking up on in this question is he's anticipating the next set of problems and how he's going to navigate the next set of problems. And we are inviting him, I mean, dating in any situation, dating is about dancing with possibility, dancing with uncertainty, having no idea how it's going to unfold. And so dating actually, for him, is going to become a mindfulness practice. Can he just get himself to that first date and just feel into that without playing it, eight moves ahead because he doesn't know and so much of it depends on so many different things that he can't have figured out or anticipated. And maybe that urge to be able to play it forward is in part a reflection of what you're saying of how many decisions he's been having to make. But I wonder if part of that, like, I want to play it forward is part of the grief of divorce is like, I didn't know that was going to happen. Even if he and his ex-wife were very mindful and intentional, it still is a rug ripped out from under you. None of us go into our marriages really actually thinking we're going to get divorced. So that there's that blindsidedness and maybe especially of his, maybe he truly was actually blindsided and so there's a way in which perhaps what you're picking up on is that whole, like, but what if and what if and what if is that part of him that just does not ever want to feel the way this has felt, which is I didn't see it coming and it hurt like hell and it's really hard to recover from. Yeah. And I think there was like a layer of protection for the other person too, the imagined person, wanting to save them from his own unfairness and maybe it's something he's experienced as being in a relationship that feels unfair and not feeling like he has options for navigating that or maybe he's been accused of being unfair and he's trying to prevent that. And I think that's interesting as well. And, you know, again, I wish he was with us because I would ask him like, so what if, like, what if you date somebody and this person says, you're unfair, you're in a relationship with me and you're with your kids way too often, you're unfair. What would come up for him? How would he deal with that? And does he believe he can deal with that? Number one, like does he believe he could navigate that? The second thing that I'm thinking is like, I don't think he can prevent somebody else from feeling like things are unfair. He can try his best to live with integrity and to do what he thinks is fair. But he could do all of that and still have someone say, I think it's unfair that you spend one day a week with your kids or somebody say, I think it's totally fair that we only see each other once a month. Like, we don't know what this person thinks is fair. And so I'm just curious, like, what if they say that you're unfair? What if you find that you don't have the time, can you feel maybe connected enough with yourself to know that you'll handle it? That just, you've handled obviously really hard things. You'll handle that and that you have what you need inside of you to be able to do that. Beautiful. Well, you're reminding us that he can't solve a two person problem. There's maybe an urge to make a two person problem, which is how do we create realistic and equitable or realistic and enduring agreements? He wants to make a two person relational process into a one person job, which is there's a loveliness about wanting to spare this future partner from the angst, from the effort, from the negotiation. And at the very same time, he can't solve it on his own. He can't figure out on his own and probably whatever he and this future person would figure out in month one of their relationship is going to change in month four and it's going to change in year one. So it's going to be like an evolving as any, you know, as any boundary negotiation, any relationship, right? Whatever boundaries you have early on, they get changed and flexed as we get to know each other and as we build trust. And certainly with the blending family, my blending family is a very powerful and concrete example of how boundaries begin in one place and then they evolve and open over time with trust and with clarity and with like each step of the way. So it's a really good point you're making about he can't do it on his own. And if he was with somebody who then is saying to him, you're being unfair, I think you and I, we want to kind of go over and whisper in her ear. Okay. So rather than calling him unfair, what is the unmet need? What are you wanting? What are you needing? What are you yearning for? What is feeling really sad to you or frustrating to you about this? Might you be able to get a bit more vulnerable than just calling him our dear listener, calling him unfair? Yeah. And you know, as you're saying that, that's something good for him to hear because he could actually ask that same question. You wouldn't need you to whisper it in her ear that he could say to a future partner, what's going on? This isn't feeling fair. I really, I'm guessing you would really care about this person if you care enough to worry about what feels unfair to them and being able to say, you know, what do you need? What's going on and not to move into defensiveness, not to move into shame and think, I'm not worthy. Not again, which I know for people who are going through divorce with children, you never feel like enough. You are pulled in 8,000 directions and people have many needs around you and it is a lot. And so it would be easy with a new partner to fall into feeling inadequate, shamed any of those things. And then when that happens, we close off. And so the issue there would be somebody says, I feel like things are unfair and that you might say, gosh, I'm not enough again. Maybe I just end this or maybe I criticize myself or I shift my life in huge ways that don't actually work for me to make it work for this other person. But instead I want to encourage you to address it. If this fear happens, you can say to the person, I'm open hearing what's happening for you, you know, I want things to feel fair. I care about you and I don't know if I can make it perfect. But let's talk about this. And let's figure it out together. Beautiful. I love that. I love that. Okay. I wonder if we might talk a little bit about a piece of it, which is, you know, I think that if his future partner has kids of her own, then there is certainly elevated complexity, right? Because now we've got his kids and her kids and there's just more degrees of complexity. But likely more empathy around the challenge is a single parenting. If his future partner is not herself, a parent, there is less complexity, certainly, but maybe a bit less kind of like connection or empathy or understanding. But either way, I'm thinking about the process of down the road, if and as they're blending their family and she's being brought in, I think there's something that is uniquely challenging about becoming a stepmother. And I'm thinking about the relationship between his ex-wife and this future partner who may eventually become a stepmother. And I remember one time years ago being at a family therapy conference and was at a session that was about divorce and blending families. And the presenter said that one of the most radical things that she had done in her practice, that she had never been taught to do, but she just started doing it, was she just would get the women in the room together. The first wife and the new partner in the room together and work on that relationship. And I remember sitting there like with tears in my eyes because being from my own blended family, there was a huge source of pain for me. It was the amount of animosity between my mom and my stepmom. I can imagine in some situations, this is an impossibility not even on the table, but what I want to plant a seed of is the idea that perhaps there becomes a really respectful, solid relationship between all of these adults that are going to be part of these four kids' lives. And it may begin with our listener saying to his ex-wife like, okay, I'm beginning to consider dating again, like how can I support you as I do this? What will you need for me? What's going to be helpful? And then just holding open the possibility that everybody gets to love on these four kids. Everybody gets to have a stake in this process. And I just have a ton of empathy for how complicated it is to be a stepmom or a step dad or a step parent that is not at all an easy role. And I think there are things that the other adults in the system can do to kind of ease that process and kind of maximize the chances that these four kids get to have another cool invested adult on their team. I love that. And I think it brings us to another really important point, which is a lot of the things could be really positive. We're talking about the fears. We're talking about the fear that there's not enough time that the other person's going to think that you're unfair, that it's not going to work, that you'll have to have all these hard conversations. All of that is probably true. there's also so much possibility for good. There's so much possibility for what you want, right? And there's the possibility that someone else comes into your life who is not going to make things feel more difficult, but who will be helpful in this arrangement of life that exists. There's a possibility that people get along. There's the possibility that it adds like richness to life. And so I would also want to encourage him not just to think about his lack of bandwidth, the unfairness, the possibilities for complexity, all which exist as possibilities. Also, how much he has to offer, how much of it might be easier than expected, how much of it might be fun. Like that is all really important to think about too. Oh, beautiful. I love, you know, as I was like working on what I might want to say about this guy, I was having these like flashes of him getting to watch the woman that he loves, getting to know these kids that he loves, right? And just kind of like really de-centering himself, and it's kind of the opposite of what I was saying before about how he's the fulcrum, which he is, he's the fulcrum. I want to invite the possibility of him de-centering himself and just kind of watching, like watching how do the younger ones get to know her and how are the older ones, these teens, right? Who we have at least stereotypes about teens being surly and being difficult, but teens also get to be and can be really intuitive. They get to kind of meet her on her own terms, perhaps. And so I would want him to stay open to the possibility of just like noticing sweet moments of all these people he loves, get to know each other and that he maybe doesn't have to be the constant go-between of like, oh, you're going to love this about this one, you're going to love this about this one that he maybe gets to breathe a bit and kind of watch. How might these relationships begin to gel together between all these people that he cares about? I love that. He doesn't have to be the only one that's like making everything work with everybody all the time. And then it's going to take time and intention. It takes time to blend a family. And this family down the road that we're planting the seed of possibility for is going to feel more like a family, you know, years in than they do in the beginning. That gets to be okay. That's just how it has to be. We can't hack that. We can't bypass the need for time and a step-by-step process. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I was thinking about also is I really liked the, you know, I'm on an empathy you had in your voice where you're talking about like the feeling of a single parent just feeling like there's never enough. And maybe just remembering like the idea of quality, such as quantity, it's also quality, right? Quality time, not just quantity time. I think that has to become a practice. Yeah. I think so too. And I think also making space for what you want is going to help you to feel like you have more to offer. And so sometimes unfortunately that does mean you only have a certain amount of hours in a day. So certainly they get taken away from someone somewhere when you add another person into your life. And it might fill you up in a way that actually allows you to be more present, more enthusiastic, to feel better about yourself when you are with the others in your life. Yeah. Yeah. Well Liz, I think that we, I feel like we covered a lot of really important ground with this question. Do you feel like there's anything we haven't, haven't said anything else that you want any sort of final thoughts that you want to offer? This is our newly single dad from Texas. I just hope he has some fun. Like I hope that I just appreciate so much how he's thinking about this. And I'm so glad that he asks this question and I hope this feels helpful. And then I hope he can take a deep breath and go date some people and have some fun and find people that he likes and enjoys and let himself see where it goes. That's what I hope for him. I love it. I love it. So thank you so much for the question that you sent in and I hope that I hope for all of the listeners that there are some little nuggets for you to take away as well. I know that there are. And Liz, before I let you go, I want to talk about your book, which you know, you and I are having this conversation a little bit before this baby has been born. But by the time listeners get to listen to you and I have in this conversation, your book is going to be out in the world available for everybody. So I think people are going to want to find you and find your book. So give us a little, tell us a bit about this book and also how people can find you. Yeah. So I have written a book called I Want This To Work. It is not out in the world yet, but it will be when you are listening. I am so excited for you to be able to read it. And it is a guide for navigating relationships in a way that helps you to hold onto yourself so that you still are you, that you can set boundaries, you can express what you need. Well, also recognizing that there is another person in the equation. So I'm working with you to learn how can you do the dance between two people in a relationship where you're continually having to decide, do I tend to me? Do I tend to them? How do we navigate conflict together in a way that's respectful and kind? And so it's full of tidbits and a lot of self-reflection, but also a lot of guided couple work. There's questions for you to do together. And it's a guide you can read alone, but certainly that you can bring your partner into. It's caught. I want this to work and it's going to be for sale at bookstores wherever you buy books. So you can find it online. You can find it in your store, hopefully. And yeah, it's also an audible. So you can listen to it. And if you want to continue to connect with me, you can find me at Liz listens on Instagram. You have a beautiful Instagram feed. And I am really touched by the amount of care that you bring to all the communities that you create. I just I feel like you bring a lot of love to your work. And I know that your book I want this to work is going to have a lot of love in it. And it's going to offer a lot. I really I respect you intentionally with this book are wanting to honor all of the complexities of modern relationships. So your book is written in a profoundly inclusive way and in a way that really honors all the ways that we are loving each other in this day and age. So I can't wait for people to be able to access it. And I know as you said, it's available where books are sold. But whenever I'm talking about books, I'm wanting people to consider supporting their indie bookseller. And if they don't know what their indie bookseller is and their community, they can use bookshop.org, which will partner them with their local indie bookseller. I think that's another way to ensure the inclusivity of your book is reflected in the inclusivity of how people are spending. Cause oftentimes our indie booksellers are run by people who represent marginalized communities. And I think all of that is so important that our dollars reflect our values. So a little plug there for the indies. Please buy it at your local bookstore use bookshop.org because I love supporting local booksellers. Thank you, Liz. So much for being here with me today. It's been a really rich conversation. Thank you. This was great. Thank you so much, Liz, for joining me as we worked through this listener's question. And thank you to this listener for bringing this topic to the show. I hope the conversation has provided clarity and ideas as you start this new chapter of your life. And that it serves as a reminder that the search for love is always worth it even when it's complicated. Head over to the show notes to grab a copy of Liz's new book and to learn more about her work. Thank you for listening to our show. Our producer is Elizabeth Vote. Our editors are Mary Chan and Danelle Cloutier of Organized Sound Productions. Our theme music was composed by Slade Warnken. Reimagining Love is executive produced by me, Dr. Alexandra Solomon. Do you have a relationship question that you want answered on the show? Visit reimagininglove.com to send in a written or audio question. Questions can be about intimate partnerships, family relationships, friendships, you name it. If you're looking for more love and relationship content, you can find me on Instagram at doctor.alexandra.solomon or visit my website, dralexandrosolomon.com, where you'll find my blog as well as the intimate relationships 101 E-course based off of the popular class I teach at Northwestern University. Thank you for listening and see you next week here on