Data centers fight back

You know, Mr. Wonderful from Shark Tank, Kevin O'Leary. "You've got a real business, but you're a pig. You're greedy." It's hard to tell where the ruthless, business man's stick ends and the human begins. Not helping matters. His recent efforts to build the mother of all data centers in Utah. 40,000 acres worth. He called it "wonder valley." "There's a valley. A valley where technology and nature will come together in perfect harmony." "Where the future will pull set a return." The people of Utah said no thanks and the project seems to have tanked. Amazon, Google met a Microsoft Oracle and the rest of big data want to spend something like half a trillion dollars on AI infrastructure this year alone, but they're up against data center's serious PR problem. So on today's plane from Vox, we're going to hear from a data center PR person on how she's fighting back. Support for the show comes from Americans United. 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I mean, it was hard for him to have romantic relationships that could last, you know, he didn't really do anything but put all the energy into his guitar. It's a fun ride, so listen to the episode right now by searching for Monday Music Club anywhere you get your podcasts. I'm Nicole Thomas and I am the SVP of Media and Community Engagement, JSA. Okay, what's JSA? JSA stands for Jamie Scotto and Associates. We are a peer marketing and event firm that we have been in this industry for 21 years, specifically protect telecom and data centers. So you've been at this for 21 years. Obviously, 21 years ago, data centers were not the hot button issue they are today. When did you notice the shift? Yeah, I'd say about two years, I guess. So I came into this industry myself about four and a half years ago. I come from a state transportation background where community engagement is just paramount, right? When you're putting a new traffic intersection up, they expect you to interact with the public. And so when I got to this industry, I kind of said, I know like, what's your community engagement like? And they said, we don't even have any community engagement in this industry. And they weren't wrong because 21 years ago, they were just like infrastructure, right? It was like building a warehouse for your computers. And so it's very similar to the way that you would build a Costco. You would just go in, request a zoning permit. The zoning board would say, yeah, that works. Stamp, boom. And you build your data center. And as a matter of fact, it was very secretive before, right? Because data has a lot of implications in having that data in the wrong hands. So it was very secretive, cyber security, all of that. And so about two years ago, as when we started noticing the mainstream journalists coming around, kind of asking questions about data centers. And that's to me, kind of when it started. It still feels secretive, I think, to a lot of people. And that's why people are mad. I mean, if you read about this data center that was proposed in Utah by Mr. Wonderful Kevin O'Leary, it was a lot of, it caught a lot of people off guard. Kevin O'Leary says his controversial proposed data center in Boxelder County will not suck the great Salt Lake dry, the Shark Tank investor, sites what he calls misinformation on the project. I think when you see what I'm going to build and how I'm going to design it, it will be the shining example worldwide for how you do this right. There's another one being proposed in Utah right now that they want to build on federal land. And people are up in arms and surprised by that news. It feels like these data centers sneak up on people a lot of the time. And 70% of Americans at the moment do not want them in their backyards. A low, constant hum and bright lights shining into your backyard. That's what some South San Jose neighbors say they've been dealing with, living just a few roads away from several data centers. We do not want a data center in this county. What has this done to your dayboard? Destroyed it. It is basically destroyed it. So tell us how you go about trying to change that 70% mind. Yeah, so first and foremost, I think education is really important, right? And so one of the things that we did notice very early on because of the previously secretive nature of data centers, there wasn't a lot of education out there about what they even are, right? And so that's something we need to change, right? We need to make the connection between this right here and data centers so that people understand what a data center means to their life on a daily basis. What did you point to? I didn't see. Sorry. Oh, your phone. So every app on your cell phone requires a data center to save your information in there. When you put your password into anything, a data center, you are interacting with a data center who will verify your password and then let you into that app. Not to mention all of the information about you that you store in that app is then stored in a data center so that it can be recalled at any time. So part of it is again, like just not a good job by the industry to connect digital infrastructure with what we do every day. We could not be having this call without digital infrastructure. It doesn't work that way. We can't have email without digital infrastructure. And you know, that's that about 70% of people not wanting to data center in their backyard. I'd be interested in to this data of like how many people actually live in your data center and don't realize it, right? Because they're not just good data centers. Doing work quietly in your neighborhood that have been there for decades and you don't even know it. And so in some ways, I feel, and I think the industry does as a whole, but I won't speak for them, that the pushback on data centers is somewhat related to the pushback on AI. So because people can't control AI, right? It's the sting. How do we control AI? You even have like Sam Altman telling us that AI will destroy society, right? You know, I think AI will probably like most likely sort of lead to the end of the world, but in the meantime, there will be great companies created with series machine learning. So you have this concern about AI and you don't know how to control it, but you can push back on data centers. And so it becomes like the physical manifestation of AI. Are these data centers that people are trying to, you know, get overturned or get to not be in their neighborhoods? And so, you know, it's understandable. I'm a citizen, too. You're a citizen, right? And if things come into my neighborhood, I want to know about them. I have questions. There's a big data center that just came to my community not long ago. And their community engagement was horrible, absolutely horrible. Can I ask where you are? I'm in Indiana, and I won't say which hyperscaler it is, but their, you know, hyperscaler came into my neighborhood, and I would say, and not my neighborhood into my city. They're definitely not in my backyard, but they are in my city. And so we, you know, took them to task because their community engagement was basically non-existent. And so. So wait, you work in data center PR, but you took a data center in your community to task for not being transparent enough? Yeah, absolutely. So the thing that. Which side are you on? I'm on the side of responsible development. Okay. I mean, you're pointing to your phone and saying this needs a data center. And this, you know, video chat we're having right now, this needs a data center and our passwords and all the rest. But I think you're also alluding to the problem here, which is that we've all kind of accepted that we need a cloud for X, Y, and Z and that, you know, it's worth it so I can take lots of photos. I think everyone's cool with that. But the issue here is that people aren't necessarily cool with AI, but we're barreling forwards anyway. And to do that, we need way more data centers than we've ever had before. And they're going to be bigger. And they're going to be more conspicuous. And they're going to be potentially on federal land. They're going to be in your neighborhood, whatever it might be. This is why people are mad. And so how do you separate this essential need we have from AI, which people don't necessarily feel as essential to their lives yet? Yeah. I think it goes back to education, right? Educating consumers on the difference between data centers, right? A small data center, a medium data center, a large data center, educating them on why data centers exist and how they interact with data centers on a daily basis multiple times. I hear you but again I feel like the issue here is not the data centers my cell phone needs, but instead is the data centers, these AI companies need, and these AI companies who the public doesn't necessarily trust because they keep telling us that they're going to kill us, and who the public is wary of because they don't want their jobs being replaced by AI. There's all sorts of reasons that people are skeptical of new technology, not necessarily technology we already have, so how do you specifically respond to that fear and to those people? Yeah, I think it's again understanding the actual data centers being built in your community. Is it a five megawatt data center? That's never going to house AI, right? That's not enough power to house AI. Is it a one gigawatt data center like Mr. Wonderful in Utah, right? That's different, but I think that AI is probably going to be something that is a lightning rod in the American public for a very long time. There are going to be people who are going to be anti-AI and pro-AI, and there's going to be some people in the middle. I think it just for again, for us, it's educating the community. Have you ever been part of a project that a community rejected and you guys just packed up and said, "Okay, we'll go find another community?" Yeah, I mean, we have some clients who have had pushback from residents, and they have either had like let's do a one-on-one community meeting where people can come in and ask us questions. And after the questions were answered, the community leaves and says, "Okay, this isn't as bad as I thought it was," right? Or we have a community that says, "No, we now have a moratorium," right? And we were pushing all data centers away. You know, the client's not going to necessarily, sometimes, they'll wait, right? If they're clients, so my client is a developer, they've got clients that they're developing for. If that client will wait, then maybe it is something that we'll try to work out with the community. But oftentimes, right? They'll just say, "There's communities who are literally raising their hands and saying, "We'll take a data center. We'll take one. We'll take two, bring it here," right? So there are communities who recognize that if it's of data centers, you know, there are going to be other communities who say, "No, we don't want this," and then in five, six, eight years, they're going to be like, "Wow, a county has a lot of tax dollars. We have a lot of really cool stuff. Why don't we have that?" And the answer will be data centers. I don't think this ends anytime soon though, right? Like, I counsel my clients so we could still be here in three to five years, really trying to help the American public understand the benefit of data centers. But it's going to take a lot of education across the industry. And once we get those seeds planted, I'm a firm believer that they grow into, you know, educated community members who make educated decisions to bring community-minded data centers to their community. That's the PR side. When today explained returns, we're going to hear about what big data is doing directly. It looks like greenwashing, it smells like greenwashing. Maybe it's greenwashing. Are you tired of hearing about business, tech, and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters, a top business podcast with the VOX Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday and we decode money, power, and love. And who doesn't love all those things? We are the Internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for Late Night Sister Talk Meets Boardroom Strategy. Check out Tiger Sisters on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Tiger Fam. 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The NPR Politics Team is made up of very experienced journalists who talk politics like smart friends, clearly, calmly, no hyperbole. They give you the context you need to understand what's happening, why it matters, how it can shift the bounce of power, that way you can stay informed without letting political news take over your day. I listen to the NPR Politics Podcast, whatever there's a big breaking politics story. Listen now to the NPR Politics Podcast and the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts. "Data, look at this." "Data." "What?" "My name, it is pronounced today, explained. One is my name, the other is not." Hi, I'm Sean Ramas from Today Explained is back on big data, we just heard how the big companies are trying to fight the PR battle, but what are they doing themselves? Justine Kalma just wrote, "If a data center is camouflaged in the woods, will anyone hate it for the verge?" Yeah, I mean, this has been going on for maybe a couple of years, at least, where I've started to see these press releases about community initiatives that tech companies are rolling out, whether that is promising that they're going to do a better job, communicating with folks in the neighborhoods where they build data centers, or paying for the infrastructure needed to serve their data centers when it comes to all of the electricity and water that they're guzzling up, and they've also taken this sort of additional step of trying to make their data centers maybe a little less ugly and intrusive by greening them up through this strategy that they call biomimicry. Biomimicry, it's not a term that Microsoft has come up with, it's kind of an umbrella term for ways that technologies might mimic things in nature, and Microsoft is doing this through what they call ecosystem enhancements to kind of restore ecosystems or plant things that look like the local landscape and really tailor their approach to each data center and meet the needs of the local communities is what they're saying. Yeah, I mean, you, you wrote about what's going on in San Antonio, Texas, what is Microsoft doing there? In my interview with Microsoft, they had mentioned San Antonio as a place where they wanted to, or they were at least considering planting these pollinator gardens that would be, you know, a helpful stop for monarch butterflies during their migration. Wow. And so, okay, let's see, San Antonio, and also because this is. Build more data centers for the monarch butterflies. I love it. Put it on a t-shirt. It's irresistible. There you go. Who doesn't love a monarch butterfly, but. Soon we'll be saying that about data centers. I know, I know, right? But yeah, also Texas is important because Texas is the fastest growing market for data centers right now. It's a really hot election issue in Texas, you know, so this is where I wanted to kind of see what are some folks saying on the ground. And so San Antonio is one place where Microsoft has had data centers for decades. I talked with Council Member Rick Galvan from San Antonio because he had proposed a moratorium on building new data centers. And, you know, his constituency, they're dealing with around 15 data centers, I believe. There is too much at stake for lip service from our energy and water infrastructure to our air quality and public health, to our tree canopy and quality of life. Our residents are asking us to act. And they're mostly concentrated along two roads. And so that also concentrates the impact that they're having when it comes to noise pollution, light pollution, issues with construction concerns about how, again, how much energy and water these data centers are using. So yeah, it's a different beast now as we're seeing this, this build out for AI. Okay, so Microsoft is out there in San Antonio, Texas and they're listening and they're learning and they're planting trees. So I mean, they've cut down a hell of a lot of trees in San Antonio. That was something that Council Member Rick Galvan said. I remember Galvan brought to my attention pretty quickly was that, you know, the S they want to plant a pollinator garden, but a data center that they were building out several years ago caused a big stir because they cut down about like 2,600 trees or something. 2,600 trees and they want to plant a bio garden. What is it? A pollinator garden. A pollinator garden. And they want to plant a pollinator garden? So yeah, that was a big deal. The trees were a big deal. You know, he talked about this area, there are a lot of, you know, there's a lot of green space. He said that was something that was attractive for a lot of people who would move to the area in the first place. It's a hot dry state generally, much of the time. And so when you cut down trees, you're losing the cooling effect that canopy has, both from shade and just from, you know, it mitigates the, the phenomenon called the urban heat island where, you know, a lot of concrete can trap and store heat in a place. So this is something that has really, it's bringing a lot of changes to this community. Are they buying it? Is anyone buying that planting a little pollinator garden can make up for something like cutting down 2,600 trees and we're not even talking about all the other adverse effects putting a data center close to a community may have? Yeah, so, you know, Council member Galvan, he kind of said something to the effect of, you know, maybe they just want to have all their bases covered by putting out announcements like this. But even so, if there is some benefit, the community will take those benefits. So one of the reasons why they're saying they want to plant more greenery, they call them, it's kind of like a buffer along these data centers is that, that is one method to kind of dampen the noise. And so, you know, if it's going to meet some of the concerns that residents have for effects that are already taking place, like that's something, you know, communities will, will take that. And the other thing that Council member Galvan mentioned to is that Microsoft compared to other data center operators because they're not just dealing with Microsoft, right? This is kind of like a flood. And so, Microsoft has at least, you know, a representative in the community that they've been able to communicate issues too and that is something that is different than say other companies that are building or have built data centers in the area. And it's a lot more difficult to bring up concerns when the company won't communicate with you. So, I spoke with the advocate from public citizen, which is, you know, it's an advocacy group that has a national presence, but they were active in San Antonio, they backed this moratorium on data centers in San Antonio, they're concerned about them in Texas. And, you know, that advocate with public citizen basically said, like, this is lipstick on a peg. So, do the other companies not even care? Should we be more worried about the companies that aren't even making the effort to put lipstick on the peg? I mean, there's this sense of inevitability that all these companies kind of bring that that is fundamentally not responsive to what these communities, many of these communities are saying, right? They're, they're kind of trying to say, like, look, we can have a data center here. It's not going to be that bad. We're going to do all these things to make it better. And I asked this to Microsoft, I said, you know, like, what if, is there a scenario in which you decide, maybe we shouldn't build a data center here, folks don't want us around, maybe we should listen to them and walk away. And I didn't get a clear response to that. Do you think any of this is working, Justine? I mean, we heard in the top of the show from a PR flag, essentially, whose job it is to engage with communities, to turn around the opposition to data centers. And now we're hearing about this idea of greenwashing data centers. And yet we're seeing 70% of the country and maybe rising oppose the building of these things in their neighborhoods. Like are these companies cooked when it comes to public sentiment? And they're just going to have to contend with that moving forward or, or is there a way? Is there some sort of middle path here? I mean, I will say that that communities that have risen up against these data centers have made pretty good headway. Vocal pushback from people in a Clayton County community is being credited for stopping plans to build a data center. Empowering ban on new data centers is underway. And so there are a force to contend with, and these companies are clearly struggling with that. And so that is not something that I see changing. If anything, it's becoming a bigger issue, especially with elections coming up. I see even in Texas, you know, Governor Abbott, who wants kind of welcome these tech companies building data centers, you know, kind of turned around and imposed statewide moratoriums recently on new projects that want to connect to the power grid. What I did is I pressed pause on any new data center approval in the state of Texas. And then I established guidelines and guardrails for all data centers to comply with. He's not just doing that just because his conscience is telling him to, right, I mean, or nor are these companies doing that because communities are fighting for their neighborhoods. And, you know, they don't want these data centers or if their data centers are already there, they want to make sure that they're limiting any harms that they have. Justin Colmout, the verge.com, Dustin DeSoto, Jolly Myers, Gabriel, Donatov, Bridger, Dunnigan, David Tattishore, Vox.com. Oh, I didn't say today explained. This is today explained. [MUSIC]