Daniel Jeremiah on Ohio State’s historic Draft Class + Player Comps & Draft Ranges for Top Prospects

She was 14 for sale in a motel off I-35 until Ken Paxton put her traffickers in prison. 40 years for the trafficker. 20 years for the woman who posted the ads. The unit that locked them up? Ken Paxton built it. The website that sold kids? Ken Paxton shut it down. Prosecutor, dad, attorney general. Ken Paxton for U.S. Senate. Texas PAC is responsible for the content of this advertising. Paid for by Texas PAC. Not authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. Texas PAC.org. Ooh, could he go that late? Yeah, I think it's very possible. His down's off the board. I'll tell you for a fact, I know some teams have it that way. Compare him to Jameer Gibbs. The ability to make people miss at full speed, like those guys can just tap into a different gear. If you don't get on the Jadarian Price train, I'm not feeling great about you having a running back you think could start next year. How do they not take him? They don't have a starting running back. Touchdown. These fans are the best in the country. A day like today is why we love college football. Let's dive right into it. One of my best friends and a guy that I probably respect more than anybody else in this business, but don't tell him it's Daniel Jeremiah joining the program. This is always one of my favorite episodes of the year, DJ. So here we go. Thanks for coming on, man. How you doing? I could have done without the word probably. That would have been a little nicer, but that's okay. You're probably one of my best friends, too. I think you're pretty good at what you do. One little word. Just couldn't help yourself. Got to stick that word in there. I knew no matter no matter how much praise that I was going to put into the intro, I knew there was something something coming in the opposite direction. What a caveat. They threw in there. Here we go. Here we go. Well, this this is this is probably going to be a good episode. Here we go. I want to get into this draft. Obviously, you and I are going to be covering it in Pittsburgh. I don't know if it's like super known, but obviously with with the NFL Network and the ESPN deal, like you will continue to cover the NFL draft. This is going to be my last one. Like they have me on ESPN. Fox ain't loading me over to ESPN anytime soon. So this is our last run at it in Pittsburgh, which should be really fun. And it's a really fun draft. One of the things that I talk a lot about is big. Ten football. And as you know, over the last few years, Ohio State has been right at the forefront of that call. A ton of these Buckeye games. And I wanted to start right there, DJ, because you are perfect historian perspective of what we're seeing right now with this Ohio State class that we're about to see this year on the heels of having 14 draft picks a year ago. We might have, what, four, five of these guys draft in the first round, four of them in the top ten. The historic nature. What we're seeing right now out of this Buckeye class for this draft. Yeah, it's pretty nuts. I mean, the only thing I can compare it to is just the Miami run that they were on in the early 2000s. You know, that that was like it was a period of just almost every year we were seeing for, you know, first round guys and then running that depth all the way through. But it's not only, Joel, that they've had dudes like this is another year where they've got guys. And you mentioned the four top ten players. But these guys are having success at the NFL level, too. It's not like, you know, this is some overhyped grouper. It's a program that's living off their reputation. Like these guys are getting drafted high and rightfully so. They're playing really well at the next level. The four top ten picks, if it happens, obviously, just doesn't happen. Right. Like we like you were talking about those Miami teams. Just to give you a sense, like in 2002, Miami, five first round picks, including Ed Reed at 24. That was just before your time with the Ravens. In 04, Miami had six first round picks in the first 21. That was the Sean Taylor draft. He was drafted at five and 21. Bama had six first round picks, three in the top ten. They had Waddle, Sertain and Devante Smith. In 2022, Georgia had five first round picks just off their defense, by the way, 15 total picks. But we're talking about the first time in the modern draft era. Second time, really, in the common draft era since 67, Michigan State, that we could see four in the top ten. And here's what's interesting about this class for. Ohio State. And you mentioned the guys that have had success from Ohio State in the National Football League. One of them is specifically a wide receiver, and it's Carnell Tate. And Carnell Tate wasn't even the best receiver on his team in college and is likely going to be the number one wide receiver taken in this draft. And all of us, me included, and I'm sure you as well, believe that because he's from that lineage and he showed what he did at the college level, he's likely to have a lot of success and be in the top ten in this draft. Yeah, when you look at it, you pull up all those first rounders, the wide receiver position. Really, Marvin is the only one who hasn't lived up to the reputation, you know, and he's been OK. He just hasn't lived up to the billing of where he was picked. Those other guys have all met or exceeded expectation and done it relatively early in their career. I wonder to myself about the Cardinals quarterback situation and because, like, for instance, and I think you and I talked about this. When when JSN, when Jackson Smith and Jigba went to Seattle, I was like, oh, I was like, dang, like, that's well, that's not great because they're not built to use him. And then all of a sudden they get Darnold and, you know, they change some things up offensively and he has a monster year and he was one of the best wide receivers in the league. I wonder to myself, you know, I know that's a little bit of a knock maybe on Kyler, but I wonder to myself. Like what Marvin could do if he stays healthy and gets gets a better quarterback and what he could do in the league. Yeah, I think that's fair. I would just counter that with Michael Wilson, like the last half of the year last year for the Cardinals was really good and played better. Yeah, I've been really good. So they've had some guys that have put up numbers and done some things, but sometimes it can just be the system that came in there. That system, you know, had DK Metcalf in Seattle was kind of the guy with DK goes out, new system comes in and to your point, JSN explodes. So. I'm still holding out hope there. And again, I don't think he's in bus category. He just hasn't, you know, for the hype that was out there and what he was going to be. And I think also the fact that he went to Arizona as such a high pick and you've got Larry Fitzgerald and what he did, obviously different quarterbacks, different offense. But that was kind of the standard. So I think if you're looking at it from their standpoint, going, OK, this is this Valley who dude comes in here and it hasn't been exactly what we thought. When you go through the rest of those guys, it's impressive, man. Yeah. OK, how about some of these other? But guys, let's let's go with two guys at positions that are going to be undervalued. I think safety and off the ball linebacker. We've got Caleb Downs and we've got Sonny Stiles. And these two guys are two of my favorite guys in the entire draft. And now you're going to wrestle with that question about, well, do you take a safety, you know, in the top six or seven? Do you take an off the ball linebacker that high? How high is too high for these players? They're not only great on the field, but they're great off the field. Talk to me about this wrestle that these, you know, NFL organizations are going to have with these positions off the ball linebacker and safety with Downs and Sonny Stiles and where you ultimately think their value ends up. Yeah, I mean, I've got them way up there. I mean, Sonny Stiles is my third player, so I'm a huge fan of his. I have Downs at eight or nine. I've gone back and forth him and Mansoor Delane. I wake up in the morning and just see which one I'm going to pick out of the hat. I just kind of go back. I've gone back and forth with those two guys throughout the process. But to me, it's about what is your plan for him and how can he impact your team? Like, I'll give you an example. Sonny Stiles, if you are solid and you've seen and coached Fred Warner and know what Fred Warner can do in that scheme and how impactful he can be with what he does, you should have no problem taking him with the fourth overall pick. If you're the New York Giants and you're looking at Sonny Stiles and you're going, OK, well, I got the future of this division. I know they didn't have the year they wanted to. Last year, because he got hurt. But the future of that division is Jaden Daniels. So how do you defeat Jaden Daniels? Well, I like to have guys at the second level that can get to him on the perimeter when he decides to go and then also have the length and range that when they want to try to RPO us and throw us in the middle of the field, we can clog all that with all of our size, length and athleticism. Like he is the perfect player to try and defend someone like that. And, you know, obviously, Hurts can move around. That can move around. I think having a player at that level that can do all that stuff and handle the communication on top of it. I can make a very strong argument for those guys in those places. And then when you get to downs, look, I tell everybody it's not a lock. It's going to go in the top 10. We live in a in a world where Derwin James somehow didn't go in the top 10 or Kyle Hamilton didn't go in the top 10. And we just saw him and Wari go in the second round. So, you know, in terms of how high he goes, it's a little more difficult to project. But when I'm looking at specific teams and I'm looking at Cincinnati and I'm looking at where they are as a team and I'm thinking, OK, this is a good time. OK. This is the worst rush defense in the NFL. And then you say, well, then why the heck are they taking a safety? Because I can ask the guy who called all of his games. I think he can impact the run defense as much as he can impact what he does in the passing game. I think I would actually say maybe more. Yeah, maybe more. Because his his here's here's how I would put it. His margin as compared to another safety like, you know, who are the other guys? like Thinamen. - Yeah, a McNeil one. McNeil Warren at a Toledo like his his margin and pass coverage over those guys or against those guys versus those guys I think is kind of like okay you know I like his instincts uh a bit more but then you you you put their cut-ups against one another and then even other safeties in the league in terms of instincts against the run playing low uh playing in that little joker position that they had him in a lot where they would put the linebackers pretty wide and they'd set him at eight or nine and just kind of let him go and he and he plays he plays like another linebacker even at his size which is which is really crazy so the margin that he has above those players when it comes to run fits and instinct in the run game I think you know grows um at least in my estimation and then the other part that I would just say about downs and this is why like I mocked him to Dallas just because Dallas Dallas has two picks they've got a chance to get two really good secondary players in particular if downs fell to them yeah because they could get a corner later in particular with some of the things that that uh these top corners are dealing with from an injury perspective like McCoy from from Tennessee so on um but DJ the the thing that I think is is really really interesting about downs is that in the middle of all of this draft run that Ohio State has been on and in particular on the defensive side they built the defense for downs schematically it was all about Caleb Downs in particular after the loss to um Oregon in their championship year they totally rebuilt the structure just for him to be more impactful so that he would be at the at or near the ball uh more often than he was prior to that game so that's something that I think is fascinating that's what they did in that year that's what Matt Patricia continued to try to do this uh this last year there in Columbus all right let me let me ask you one question real quick you mentioned another name it's not a Buckeye so are we allowed to do that uh yeah okay trust me we're okay okay you mentioned one you mentioned one so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna rely on you for some info here so uh Dylan Thienemann yep when you did how many Oregon games did you do uh only two the last couple of years okay did you did you get a chance to ever talk to Tosh about Thienemann yes and Dan uh talk to talk to both of them they loved Dylan Thienemann and I'm I'm one of my college teammates was Ryan Walters who Thienemann played under at at Purdue um so like I I've talked to him at length about Thienemann how do I want to put this I don't want to throw those guys under the under the bus they loved him raved about him so they never said anything poor about about Thienemann went out and got him in the transfer portal but but they wanted him to fulfill a role that they saw in the Rose Bowl being played against them when Downs and Ohio State beat them up really bad in that in that Rose Bowl and they brought Thienemann in and kind of played him like Ohio State plays Caleb Downs which is way different than what Purdue was a center fielder at Purdue correct because because Ryan Walters when he was at Purdue just runs cover one with a really deep free safety and he was so good in that freedom area where he was just a post safety and he could roam around the field um I felt like Thienemann as good as he was last year for Oregon and he was good he's he's better as a post safety which is what he played at at Purdue so that's that would be my like insights or instincts on Thienemann so here's why I was going there um because I've had people tell me that when the scouts went through there this year and I'm with you by the way just to backtrack a second I like him better as opposed I like his Purdue tape better than I even like the Oregon tape but his Oregon tape's not bad no no it's fine but I just like he's more impactful he's more impactful to me in the middle of the field but guys that went through there that talk with Tosh when they talk to Tosh Tosh raves about this dude absolutely loves him talks about he's one of the smartest players one of the best players he's ever coached so this is why I wanted to get I wanted to get confirmation on that just from whatever conversations you may have had with him because 100% which is why they thought they could do what Ohio State did with Downs is because that's in order to play that position you have to be so smart so they they brought him in they're like man this guy is off the charts yeah we can do that and they actually mimicked if you watch it they mimic the scheme that Ohio State ran to beat them up and they come out last year and that's what they were running so so here here's why I asked you that though so here's the right this is how like when we're getting ready for the draft these are the fun things that I'm gonna do so I hear that I got that piece of information okay Cowboys you just mentioned as a Downs team the Cowboys have a glaring need in the secondary in its safety position Tosh Lupoi who we've just established loves Thinaman where was along his journey where was he at he was at Alabama in uh in 20s uh gosh he was there from 2014 all the way to 2018 yeah he was there for a while he was a code DC in 2017 you know who the uh who was coaching in that secondary was it was Derek Ainsley you know who for the Dallas Cowboys right now oh I haven't put this Derek Ainsley oh that's why I've been saying I think Thinaman could be the 12th pick in the draft that's so good and also you're better at this than anybody is putting those pieces together and then Parker the new DC came from the Eagles and look what they did in that one draft when when they were we were there and they get Quinn Young Mitchell to come around get Cooper to Jean so you're looking at the both those guys so athletic um they're both versatile pieces you could do a lot of different things with them so this would be more of trying to find his Cooper to Jean I think you know in terms of just some way you could kind of move around do different things with not going to be more going to be that center fielder but they can also drop them down and do different things with them there so so wait let me I'm going to sit on this for a second because it's the Cowboys and and this pick is going to be scrutinized I mean it's it's one of the most um talked about picks of any first round they got two is what and they got two and they they like you said they've got glaring need in that secondary um in in your scenario where you're you're seeing like a Thinaman tie or like putting those pieces together is Downs off the board because personally I don't see a world where Thinaman is drafted ahead of Caleb Downs I would say I'll tell you for a fact I know some teams have it that way I don't really I'm telling you some teams have it that way wow so and I'm not saying they do and I I would in that scenario I would I would have them taking Downs but if Downs goes 10 you know Downs goes 11 I mean any of those teams 10 11 12 could all be in that and look at Kansas City's picking nine they've got issues in the secondary so yep I think that's the window I think that nine to twelve and I wouldn't be shocked if both those guys are in that nine to twelve range when it's all set up and and by the way I'm a big fan of McNeil Warren as well I have McNeil Warren over Thinaman by one spot so he's he's he's better um I think Thinaman has better overall instincts yeah but at the football McNeil Warren has like this nine force fumbles great yes this great ability you know to to just get the football and that that's something that is really hard to teach I had I had a I had a conversation with an executive the other day um and he was we're talking about he was talking about missed tackle percentage and so he was saying that that's why he had Thinaman over McNeil Warren he's just a little bit he's been a little bit better tackler so he told me that I think the percentage it might have been like the difference between like 13 or like 14 and 11 or something like that I don't have numbers off top of my head so I'm like okay well then I just pulled it up because you can go through and sort it right so I go and pull those up one of the one of the missed tackles is it's down in the box they're pushed to crack with the receiver he takes on the receiver takes on the crack block and then the running back's coming to his right so then he tries to redirect and reaches out and gets him with one arm and can't get him on the ground that's a missed tackle okay so I think that's okay so anyways we're talking about a difference of like two to three missed tackles over the course of the entire season to make the difference in these percentages and I said but does the fact that this guy's forced nine turn out nine forced fumbles in his career does that make up for the one or two different missed tackles because for me I'd rather have the football personally I I feel like I'm Edward R Rooney dean of suit nine times nine you know like gosh yes listen I hear you I A lot of these GMs, and we'll get into this a little bit later, but a lot of these decision makers, it's not, how do I put this? It's like a prosecutor. They have to be backed up by evidence. So they'll make up their mind based on what they can tangibly prove versus just like say, no, no, no, he's better or whatnot. But I'm not saying that you have to have McNeil Warren over Thieneman. I think Thieneman is phenomenal. I mean, they're one spot away on my list. I think I have one at 16 and one at 17. They're both really good. Here's what I want to do next. We're going to do NFL comps. You're so much better at this than I am. My memory just evaporates. Maybe I got hit in the head more. Maybe, I don't know. That's fair. But it's probably true. I got hit in the head. I mean, I had like four or five. I mean, I had like some legit concussion credibility over here. I played on concrete for crying out loud back in the day. That's good cred. That is good cred. I mean, I'm double digits, but that's no one's surprised about that. How many of those are fastballs and how many of those are football hits, though? Let's be straight up. Did you ever get one in baseball? No, I didn't. I didn't get hit in the head. remember i i i was hung over a lot why have they done handsome dry now everyone made a bet i've made a good decision there she was 14 for sale in a motel off i-35 until ken paxton put her traffickers in prison 40 years for the trafficker 20 years for the woman who posted the ads the unit that locked them up ken paxton built it the website that sold kids ken paxton shut it down prosecutor dad attorney general ken paxton for u.s senate texas pack is responsible for the content of this advertising paid for by texas pack not authorized by any candidate or candidates committee texas pack.org um all right dj nfl comps who comes to mind when you're evaluating this player are you ready yes sir jeremiah love yeah to me body type wise there's not a clean one stylistically i would compare him to jameer gibbs a little different body type but the ability to make people miss at full speed um the past game value and just a different gear like those guys can just tap into a different gear so i'll go with gibbs do you love him as much as i love him because i think he's probably if you're not i have mendoza as my number one player so do i i think i think love is probably the best football player in the draft he and arvel reese there's two ways of looking at it i think if if you're saying we're drafting for an official quarterback position factors in so i have mendoza one but if we were to rally the 40 i think i count 46 people you've got working on this show and we were to go to the park and pick teams and just go play at the park jeremiah love would be the first pick of course he would kiara's kiara's second maybe third but she's up there katherine kills it on social no katherine's a captain so like she's she's picking so she's the one picking jeremiah love um okay so that's i love gibbs and i i also i one of the things that i thought he did a great job of this year and i talked with um another uh todd mcshay and i were talking about this um he got much better in past protection this year versus the previous years and and i said in that episode it reminded me a lot of travion henderson in that regard who all of a sudden was the best pass protector in in the draft and you can see it paid off for him early in his nfl career okay nfl comps we are evaluating carnell tate yeah carnell tate i'm gonna pull it up because i wrote a bunch of these down when i was getting doing this stuff for the baseball cards when these guys get picked um carnell tate oh that's the wrong draft so that's not gonna help you um i've done this all all weekend i know i know his the comp deal yeah i know uh his up top my head because i i to me i compared him to a lobby a little bit you know just the vertical stuff i know a lot of his time speeds a little better i think tate's a little stronger but in terms of all those ohio states that guys that have rolled through that was the one i thought he was most similar to it's fluidity down the field that that he has and and he's very smooth in that area he was great in contested catches and i think it's a trait that's hard to find a guy that doesn't panic down the field and he certainly didn't um was terrific on on the opposite side and of jeremiah smith who i think is probably the top pick in the uh a year from now but we'll talk about at least the best player we'll see yeah exactly he's kind of next year's jeremiah love in that regard but i i'm a huge fan of carnell tate overcame a ton in his in his life mom tragically tell me about that from him tell me about because i've just heard that this kid is so wired the right way so i'd love to hear about that so tragically his his mom was taken um in in a shooting uh right right when he basically got to campus as a true freshman and he was from chicago and so you know he has to deal with that as a true freshman and losing his mom in a really tragic fashion and everybody that i talked to in that building just said this guy was rock solid from day one used it as motivation knew his purpose and matured every single day and got better every single day and used it as fuel and and not as a crutch or an excuse and and this is something that that i noticed when i would talk with him and then i saw him mature over the years and here's the other part that i really really love about carnell tate and you have to have a very unique type of guy to do this because most really talented players that go into college football want to be the best player on their team or at least the best player in their room and tate knew that he was probably never going to be that and yet still wanted to be there and compete because of the greatness of the room does that make sense 100 he wanted the lineage and the challenge of being in that room specifically um and i think it speaks to his competitive will and one of the reasons why he's so good down the field and again he could have just said that sat there and said you know jeremiah smith is is better than me and i'm the number two and this or that but man he he was greedy for catches in a good way in a very good way and went out there and produced so that would that would be my two cents on tate i'm also a fan of guys who don't drop the football i was talking to somebody about a player the other day i was talking with the gm it was actually last night he was going on raving about a player run after catch run after catch my yeah you're missing the catch part of that doesn't matter how well you run if you don't catch it uh we had a good laugh about it anyways i think i know exactly who he was talking about um all right who comes to mind when you're evaluating omar cooper yeah omar cooper is just he's just a mini debo you know he's not he's not as heavy as debo but there's the the run after catch stuff reminds me so much of debo when he was coming out just once he has the ball in his hands like there's guys that just hate to be tackled he just doesn't he won't go down um and then he's able to you know kind of elevate play above the rim saw that obviously the big one against penn state but he's just that he's just an athlete and just kind of a got a little dog to him so that's who he wasn't the most polished route runner when he was coming out i think he's a little more advanced that i still think there's room for him to grow and develop there but guys just get the ball in his hands and that's when the fun starts i think there's a misconception that everybody that was really good at indiana uh was a transfer and that's not the case with omar cooper omar cooper was an indiana guy he committed to tom allen and came in and stayed there when you know the jmu crew arrives with kurt signetti and bought in and developed and became just an outstanding player for them in that passing game i think his feel for space is incredible they ran a lot of rpos no one threw more rpos in last season than fernando mendoza but part of that was because of guys like cooper and surat on the outside and cooper was outstanding i'm a huge fan of him uh and certainly i'll always remember that play because i was in the booth with gus we both lost our minds i think we almost lost gus that day i know that's an all-time call it's an all-time call oh all right nfl comps who comes to mind when you're evaluating jordan tyson yeah jordan tyson to me reminded me coming out of college of jerry judy like jerry judy had a good one had a freeness to him and like a creativity at the line of scrimmage and he was just so like limber and loose and fluid and smooth um that to me is what he reminded me of i think people forget i know jerry judy's had some high moments in the nfl it hasn't been this consistently great ride but when all those guys were in that class i remember that receiver class was stacked he was viewed right up there you know near the top of that list coming out of college so that's who he reminds me of and i i do want to clarify one thing that's out there because you know people have asked me about uh you know how physical he is how tough is he and all those things and i've said look i wish he would be stronger to the ball to finish in traffic like combat catches there's times where i don't think he's quite as strong there as he needs to be and so and that kind of is like gets wrapped up into strength and it's like fighting for the ball but then i you know as as it works nowadays people are like oh so you're saying because he tore his knee that he's not tough and i'm like this is not there two separate conversations there totally totally separate you can be concerned about the injury yes there's been injuries every year and it's you know it's that it's the collarbone it's the hamstrings um but you know that to me is the durability thing is a real thing but the when i'm talking about the toughness and competitiveness i'm not talking about overcoming injuries i'm just talking about finishing on the ball in traffic that's what i'm talking about yeah there's a different listen jordan tyson's phenomenal i love everything that you just talked about i think my biggest concern is the injury history like when healthy this guy is an elite player question elite player um but there is also a difference the way that he finishes catches between the hash marks versus a mckay lemon who is just like tough as fearless attacks the whole totally feel it fearless doesn't matter who's around what defender linebacker safety doesn't matter who's around who's around who's doesn't matter he's going to attack the football and that's a little bit of a difference there's no doubt last comp um let's go tight end kenyan sadiq nfl comp who do you think of when you see kenyan sadiq yeah there's two guys um so i'll go uh vernon davis being the the you know the the most obvious one i think that's out there just who's so you know twitchy and explosive and dynamic uh i don't think you're talking about somebody who's going to be a real feel option rowdy you know tight end you know i think that he's not, you think about Kelsey and how he plays the game, that's not going to be him. more about just, you know, speed running away from guys and, you know, the, the strength to break tackles needs to be more consistent catching the ball, you know, too many drops this last year, but I loved his competitiveness and, you know, Vernon Davis, when he wanted to, he could drive guys off the field as a blocker. So that's the first one. The other one people won't remember, but he does remind me when I watched Dustin Keller, when he was coming out of Purdue, when I was a young scout, he was same kind of compact dude who could, who could really roll. Speaking of, of like those conversations. And I know you really value your relationships and the trust that you've built around the league and everything. Well, similarly, that's how I feel about coaches, you know, and in particular coordinators and head coaches. And so I rely on what I would feel like is, is not just the stock podium answer. So when I'm talking with a coach before a game, I rely on the fact that I'm going to get different information. Then he's just going to give the, the, the press conference about a player. And so work hard with relationships. Well, I got that with Oregon. We talked about the theme and stuff already, but also Kenyan Sadiq, Dan landing says, Joel, everyone's going to rave about the way he catches the ball. And it's great. It's phenomenal. And he's going to get drafted because of it. Watch a cut up of the way he blocks. Cause he's, he was like, he's got dog in him. He's wants to block. He wants to be good at it. So he can flex and beat you or he can be in line and he can help the run game. And so I went back and I did it and we did a whole package and we did the Oregon Northwestern game, just watching him block because of that conversation that I, I had with, with Dan bad for Montana state, by the way, that was like, because some games had just started trickling in early. So that was one of the first ones I watched. And I was like, he was, he was not nice. He wasn't playing well with those guys. He was not nice in the run game. He was finished. Holy cow. Tough one for the Bobcats that day. That was, that was, that was not, not the matchup for them that day. What's up class show fans. 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You can get a free ticket to all of your 10% off your next set of tickets at SeatGeek. That's 10% off any tickets with promo code CLAT10. Make sure you click the link in the description to download the app and have the code automatically added to your account so you can use it later on. Shout out to SeatGeek for sponsoring today's show. Okay, let's play another game here. We've just got the game show theme. Ceiling floor. There's a couple of guys that I think are fascinating. One, because of whether it's, you know, like position. It could be production over potential. It could be off-field news, you know, anything like that. So you've got kind of this idea of where's their ceiling, where's their floor in the draft. So not their evaluation, but kind of like team number in the draft. What's the point that they wouldn't get passed in the first round? Let's start with Ruben Bain. And before you start, obviously it got floated out there this weekend about, about his 2024 horrible incident. There was a car accident. Someone lost their life. He was in the middle of that. Listen, NFL teams have known about this. DJ, you've known about this. Those of us around the sport have known about this for a long time. So within draft circles, this is not going to be a surprise and likely will not affect the evaluation nor the value of Ruben Bain. But having said that, it's kind of on the forefront of the public's mind. So I had, I had to say that before I talk about Ruben Bain. What do you think is a ceiling and floor for the pass rusher from, for Miami? For me, I think the ceiling would be seven with Washington. I, I don't think it's Tennessee. I don't think it's the giants or Cleveland. So I think Washington would be the first team. And then I would say the floor, I can't see the Ravens passing on him at 14, you know, a team that can't rush the quarterback and the team who values, you know, strength and edge setting. He's going to be able to do that. Plus he could kick inside. We don't know what Matt at BK is, what his situation is with the health that he's had. So he's somebody give you some inside pass rush as well. And what I loved about Ruben is his effort against the run. Like this guy is not a pass rush specialist. Like he plays his absolute tail off on every snap. And I loved that. I loved that. All right. We've already talked about downs a little bit, but we didn't get into a ceiling. We didn't get into a ceiling floor. I know we mentioned a Cowboys at 12. I haven't met 12. What do you think is a ceiling for him? Cause let me throw this out. Yeah. I had a lot of conversations. So my man, Steve, Steve and I do everything together. Steve, Steve owns. And Steve was going to be a high pick at the park, by the way. I didn't mean to leave him out a hundred percent. Well, he's, he's drafting the other team. You and I are not making picks by the way. Steve and Catherine are making. There we go. Okay. Okay. So Steve brought up and I was like, gosh, he's so perfect. He was just like, wouldn't John Harbaugh love Caleb downs. And I'm like, yes, that's perfect. A versatile safety for him. Probably doesn't probably wants him to be a little bit bigger, but you tell me what, from what you're hearing, what do you think is a ceiling floor for Caleb downs? Yeah. I don't think the giants are going to do that, but I would still there's enough of a possibility that I would keep it alive. So I would say that would be the ceiling for him would be number five. And then, you know, I. I don't like, you know, going lower on this, but. I'll probably, you know, I'll stick with Dallas as the floor, but I'm just telling you for the reasons that I've been shocked with some safeties in the past that I've had huge grades on and had them all the way up there and watch them slip and slide. So I don't know where I would put that at, but that would be, I mean, I guess I would say Minnesota would be the worst case scenario. All hell broke loose spot. There's definitely secondary need throughout the league, you know? So it's like, someone's going to take him out. I would suspect like there's no red flags play is great. Character is great. Off the field is great. There's no red flags with this guy. The, and I, and like I said, I like him. He's all the way up there for me, the, the, I would say this, and I'm, I'm going to be a little bit biased on this because I've called every single game he's played in the NFL. But when you watch Derwin James every week and you see that what he does at 60, three and a half, 220 pounds and how he runs, like I like downs, but he is not Derwin James. Like that's how, that's how I would say that. And Derwin James was the, what the 17th pick. Yeah. So that's why I'm just like, Hey, let's see how it goes. You know, we, we agree. We're speaking, we're singing the same song here about him as a player, but the league has done this before. So we have to wait and see where he goes. How about the other Notre Dame running back? Jadarian price, because he's, he's going to be the second running back taken. Like this guy is really good and was the backup, you know, to Jeremiah love who was outstanding and the Doak Walker award winner and a Heisman finalist. And Marcus Freeman has been upping the talent level. This is something that I've talked a lot about when I, you know, just get into the college oriented stuff on my podcast about when Brian left Notre Dame, he thought that there was a ceiling. But the ceiling was actually him. And Marcus has raised the ceiling from a talent perspective. And I think love and price are evidence of that, even though they were kind of like Kelly ask in terms of recruits, Marcus Freeman has elevated the talent level at Notre Dame. And these guys are part of that. And Jadarian price is going to be probably the second running back taken. Yeah. And much like your compliments to me at the start of the show, I think you can eliminate probably there and just say he is going to be the second running back taken. And it's, and it's to me, if you don't get on that train, if you don't get on the, the Jadarian price train, yeah, I'm not feeling great about you having a running back. You think it's start next year. I use as a two starting running back draft. Now we always will get some guys who will surprise us and be solid players, but it, to me it is not as a weakness in this draft. So I'm looking at him. I will put the ceiling. I'll go Seattle pick 32. And then the floor I'll go. Uh, Seattle 32. How did they not take them? I was just going to say, I was like, love won't be there. No. And they're, they're picking at a point in the draft where he's going to be right. Value wise. He's a starter. Yeah. You're going to have to buy some time because Charbonnet is coming off of injury. Correct. Charbonnet is not even fully healthy. And like he's feeling like he's going to have to buy some time because he's fantastic. And they have to, they have to replenish that position with Walker walking out the door and going to kansas city who by the way who is it who is it that clips this stuff is it kiara that's doing that who's yeah kiara does don't post it until it happens if he gets picked make us look really really smart then you send this video out kiara yeah next thursday wait on this thing next wait on that clip don't send that we look really dumb when we say that and they just pass them you know so that's right but if they take him send send you keep saying we you don't have to throw we in there you you know i mean i just trying to i'm trying to bring you along man i appreciate that um all right uh probably one of the best guys to do this that's an all-timer man what an introduction what a jerk i mean that's what they say by the way now probably i don't know now that's my favorite intro i've ever done yeah well done man i love you not even a probably that is the my favorite intro i've ever done right there uh how about david bailey oh who does he remind me of that's a good question um did i did i put a cop for david bailey let me see this what do you think just ceiling floor oh sorry i was going i was flipping games on you i know i've been uh david bailey two is the ceiling and i i like the chances of him going to and i think four is the floor i don't okay so this is what's fascinating to me and let's let's let's stop right there because this was going to be kind of my last question was just scuttlebutt you know like what are you hearing as we get closer but i think that the the first thing is is this idea of of arvel reese david bailey maybe sunny styles what do the jets do it too because that's really where the draft starts you and i and everybody else probably believes fernando mendoza is going to the raiders and then it's like okay uh what what are the new york jets gonna do and who are they drafting and there's some really good players up there they're all defenders where are they going yeah first of all there's no wrong answer you know if you told me that any of those three guys i think those are the three guys it comes down to it's it's bailey and reese i think that's probably the main decision but i think sunny styles is such a freak show that you need to entertain it you know you at least gotta put him in the conversation and have it so by the way he's also an incredible leader yes he's yeah you put the dot on him and not only are you getting the communication and the intelligence on the field but you're getting all the leadership and all that stuff and you're getting all the leadership and all that stuff and stuff off the field so um i he belongs in that conversation but i i had gone early i started off with bailey in the process um and then i'd gone okay well the jets they've got three first rounders next year it feels like this team that they're pointing towards 27 so you know the higher upside player is reese like he's got more physically in his body than bailey does he's more versatile he's more of a hybrid player than bailey is the best pure pass rusher in the draft arvel reese yeah the ceiling there is unquestionably you know you could you can make a strong case it's higher so i had been thinking okay well they're pointing towards 27 then just take the guy with the upside and then i just the more i look at it and the more talking to folks around the league who have you know connections inside that building it felt like it was more of a bailey you know bird in the hand pick this is a team last year where were they at they were 31st in sacks now they brought in some guys in free agency but nobody to the caliber of david bailey in terms of the polish as a pass rusher and i think that's a good thing because i think that's a good thing because i think that's a good thing because i think that's a good thing because i think that's a good thing because so you don't you just want to get a sure thing and when you have someone like reese who can do a lot of different things that's great but if you just want to go hunt the quarterback right now i think bailey is is is further along and i think as a safer player just from that from that standpoint i know exactly what he does i've seen him do it and i'm just going to ask him to do the same thing here yeah if you're asking me who has a lower floor as a prospect bailey or reese i would say reese he's a one-year starter and you and you don't exactly know like could he just be an off the ball linebacker i'm not sure could he just be a pass rusher i'm not sure he's really good at both could be great could be great as a hybrid style defender but his floor you know there's a little bit more risk whereas the upside is is obviously you get an insanely impactful defender on the field in the likes of micah parsons that would that's my comp when i kept talking to him that's what matt patricia and i would talk about is like this guy he can do everything he can rush on the edge you can rush on the inter by the way not to go back and forth between reason and styles styles is one of the best blitzers from the linebacker position the year before no oh so you know so so um anyways by the way this is a fascinating question you were were you with us you were with us right when we were in vegas for that draft yeah yeah so remember that was hutchinson and trayvon walker and it was okay it's such a it's like they're slightly different players but it's a very it's the exact same conversation hutchinson was a proven pass rusher polish knew how to rush walker had more physical gifts inside of his body and we went back you know how are they going to do it well obviously walker goes first hutch goes next and the other thing i would say is and because walker was such an athletic freak it was almost like people forget hutchinson's was a really good athlete too he just wasn't at that freak show level athlete just as david bailey's not some slug the guy ran four or like he's super twitchy and explosive too he's just not reese now we look back on it both hutchinson and walker have both been paid they both played at a high level like that it worked out great for both those guys and i hope it does for these two yeah that's um you and i talk about this all the time in this process this is the number one thing i cannot stand about talking about the draft is that if you rate a player higher than another or talk about something then everyone's like oh you hate that player you hate that player you hate that player you hate that player you hate that no no no no no they're they're both great players i don't think there's a wrong decision that the jets can make which is a great situation for the jets to be in yeah um the other pick that i find well there's two other ones i want to talk to specifically about for tennessee like gosh does love get past tennessee i've been beating that drum um it's kind of a complicated discussion because i have stayed it for years and i've been beating it for years and i've been beating it for years and you know because we've had these conversations like i'm a firm believer in not wanting to waste any of your running backs carries you need to have the pieces in place and that's one of the last things you want to drop in there because the shelf life is short and you want all of those years all of those carries to be meaningful it doesn't it doesn't do you a lot of good if by the time your team is good enough this guy's got two years left or you got to decide where you're going to pay him you're hoping he's going to be able to survive health wise going off into the future it's ideal if you have a team that's ready to go we just saw that last year with with gent he went to a team that wasn't equipped so i've been those are my rules i've stated them i've lived by that mantra however this is a unique situation i wish you could get in a delorean go back to the beginning of free agency and be more aggressive in terms of trading for some weapons upgrading the offensive line um in tennessee they didn't to my to my satisfaction those needs weren't met now i know wandale robinson's a nice old nice player mine either mine either but i wouldn't have to be on an island on that i would knowing where they were in this draft and i would have to be on an island on that i would knowing where they were in this draft and knowing who was there i would love if they would have built this thing up and said okay we're gonna apologies to the defense we're gonna suck over there for another year but we're gonna use our resources we're gonna build up this offensive line get some more weapons for ward who you took number one number one overall now we're gonna take love in there and guess what now we're an exciting offense we're a watchable product we're going into a new stadium next year not this year but the following year i've got loves photo right next up to cam ward on the side of the stadium we've got some juice and energy in nashville like i'm all for that now i wish they would have set the table which they didn't so i'm gonna break my own rule here and say okay the first year might not look great with jeremiah 11 tennessee but man okay i'm giving you a year this next offseason you got to fix it man you got to fix the offensive line you got to get some more help but then i'll get i'll get that those four years of that rookie deal not the full five but that's why i've been okay with him going for you could you could make an argument well i mean you can tell me if i'm wrong on this one you follow it a lot close more closely than i do you can make an argument um the raiders are on that path right like yeah they're trying to they're they're fixing that they're trying they're fixing everything around genti yeah to where maybe you know it's a lot better maybe bowers is more healthy maybe you got a better quarterback you got all yeah colt miller gets back you sign linderbaum like they're that's right linderbaum is a huge one yeah right linderbaum was a great signing for them in particular with what they what they have so yeah i mean but your point is is really well taken because you waste a year of carry of carries yeah on a running back just to build it's like that you know what that reminds me of what texas did with bijan robinson when he was at texas they were bad and he was running behind a bad offensive line and he kind of carried them to the point where they were a lot better and then he left yeah those timelines didn't marry up properly no i wanted to see bijan on one of the really good texas teams that's what i wanted to see uh so to your point about love and tennessee and then the the last pick i want to talk about is the the idea of kansas city drafting this early yeah and everyone would love from the aesthetics of it to say like hey go get patrick mahomes somebody but they did that with kenneth walker and they have this enormous need in the secondary and they're not going to pass on a secondary player are they jeremiah loves there i think all bets are off i know that he'd go could he go that late yeah i think it's very possible um i could see i could see wait even even with the walker yeah yeah walker was him and Charbonnet. That was a tag team, tag team group there in Seattle. So here's my, now you've got my head spinning. So here's my thought. This is probably the best information you've given today. So probably was, um, the, uh, so obviously you need, you'd like to have more than one back and it's like, Oh, this is a luxury. Well, I can use him in so many different ways. I've got my homes coming off of injury. So we're going to ease him back in. We're going, we brought Eric B enemy back to be the coordinator. We want to get this run game going. Now I've got two guys and they're going to compliment each other very well. We can really, really get the run game going. Plus both these guys can catch the ball and love is like a legit slot receiver. If you wanted to put them out there, he can go out there and you can make a case. He might be the best slot, probably the best slot receiver in this draft to keep the theme alive. Um, so to me, I just think it would be, and then think about the creativity, the screen games, the fun coming back to the Kansas city offense. And like the biggest point of all, it's just the Mahomes like Mahomes is coming off that injury. Like let's take the load off of him a little bit and you can do that. And, and I think people forget because he was there and he's so great. But when the enemy was the offensive coordinator, they ran the ball decent. I know that's who he is. That's what he is. That's who Eric is a hundred percent. That's who he is. And that's what allowed the other thing, Joel, is that they, uh, and unfortunately for spags, uh, Dave merits or secondary coach, you're going to get punished a little bit for how darn good you are. And then we don't need to take, we don't need to, we don't have to, we got another pick at the bottom of the first round. We have been able to find secondary players all throughout the draft. Like, cause we are so good at developing and, and, and teaching and growing these young guys. I mean, every year we're seeing these guys depart and freeze. That's why they're comfortable, you know, letting a great player like McDuffie go in that trade because they've been able to just keep reloading. They've done it with Snead. They've done it with a bunch of these guys or over the years, they just keep replenishing the secondary. They lost the safety this year as well. Um, and cook Brian cook. So they just roll them through on our way out, uh, with these corners and secondary players. Cause it, it, it applies to exactly what we were just talking about. There's a lot of teams at need, you know, Kansas city needs secondary help. Dallas needs secondary help among others. Um, there's not a better, and I can't wait for draft night and, and in particular, probably night two Friday night when we're in the second and third round. Yeah. Um, this is going to be a tracker on this podcast. Yeah. This is, this is crazy. I didn't realize this was such a crutch of mine, but now I'm going to, now I'm going to think about it every, probably I'm going to think about this every single time. We should, um, night two, we will have this discussion. Now you're in your head for corners production potential because you've got these undersized corners that were so good. D'Angelo pawns, top of that list, super undersized. Yeah. You've got a lot of guys that are just incredible football player. And then you've got guys that have injury issues played at three schools. Not that it's bad, you know, and they're six, three and 200 pounds and, and you know, one 95 and you're like, well, that's what it looks like. And we're going to have that discussion on night two. Yeah. That's going to be night two. We're going to see a run on those dudes. Um, and it'll be fascinating to see again, they almost belong in different categories, you know, with some of these players, like, the fact that you're, you're, you're going to be running on those dudes. Um, and it'll be interesting to see, you know, the fact that you're, you know, you're sitting there and you're comparing, uh, to cario Davis to, you know, D D Angelo pawns. Like, it's just like, they look like different human beings and how they play and how they look and all those different things. But I mean, to cario Davis is almost a head taller than Angelo pawns. I just under six, four, I believe. Um, so yeah, he's a freaky dude. But the, uh, the thing on ponds is I ended up, I ended up putting him in my top 50 on my last one. This is my last update. It'll come up. So it's a top one. I think I ended up putting it in my top 50. I think it's 45, but every year in this process, there's like little traditions, but I've tried to do this every year where, uh, I look at the list and I go, who am I going to be sick to my stomach when they end up going in the top 50. And for some reason or another, I just, I, I believe in the player, but I had him at like 52 or 53. You know what I mean? Like he was right there and it's like, who's good. That what's going to make me sick to my stomach. I did it with Jalen hurts. That was the last one I put in my top 50. I remember that. Cause I was like, he just so competitive and tough. He'll figure it out somehow. Like I just won't live with myself if I don't put him in there. Um, so I've done it with guys every year. So he was my guy this year where I was like, ah, just hate myself. If this guy, this guy ends up being the 35th pick and I have him as my 51st player. I'm going to be like, you moron. Like you love everything about the kid, except he's just not tall. Speaker 2 : Um, by the way, that entire, the entire defensive philosophy and scheme was built around D'Angelo ponds. My conversations with Brian Haynes were phenomenal. Brian Haynes is one of my favorite guys to talk football with. Cause he just lays it on the line right before games, big 10 championship game. It doesn't matter. He's like, this is what we're going to do. Joel, if it doesn't work, I'll, I'll tip my cap. Um, it's, it's the best DJ, you know, those conversations, you know, it's authentic and it's real. And I don't want to give too much away. And since ponds is gone, I think it's, it's fine. But everything rolled away from ponds. Cause in it, in, in everything was his own pressure assimilated pressure away from ponds. Cause he could take up half the field and he, and he would say, he would tell me, he was like, the kid will just not get beat. And so I just give him half the field and we'll see. And I was like, what if it's Jeremiah Smith? And he's like, well, he'll play hard. Yeah. We'll take our shot. We'll take our shot. And he does. And he does. And so it doesn't. And so he plays that off. Um, what I would call free access, cover three corner into the boundary as well as anybody he's tough. He's yes, he's five nine, but he's tough at the catch point. Uh, and the entire defense for Indiana won a national championship was undefeated. One of the best defenses in college football, the entire scheme was built around the fact that D'Angelo ponds was on the field. I love that. Yeah, I absolutely love it. I had, I had toyed around with some different comps and then I was talking to a buddy with a team, literally this last week as I was filling this whole thing out and kind of bounce some of the names off of him, you know, that I had been around like the various web. We talked about Avante Maddox, um, you know, just a little bit of that, you know, just some other undersized players that we love. And he was like, he's like, DJ, he's like, we pulled it up, you know, you can pull it up in their system going all the way back. It's like, it is a carbon copy of Aaron Glenn carbon copy. So I said, well, that's my comp Aaron Glenn. And then I was like, if the draft gods could just please the jets have two second round picks, please let them select him. And that's another one we can clip off. If we get that one, then we can have some fun with that one. Speaker 2 : I mean, he has gotten five shout outs to Catherine's gotten shout. Steve's gotten a shout out. So, yeah. Speaker 3 : Well, we can't get to everybody. We've got a staff of over a hundred on the show. Speaker 2 : Yeah. I mean, for those of you that are watching or listening, and I know you love Joel and hold a very high regard. It's a, it takes maybe two villages. I don't know if it takes a village is enough. Speaker 3 : Oh, buddy. Can't wait to be with you in Pittsburgh. I can't tell you how much I appreciate. I took up too much of your time and you're always super gracious. Um, you, you are, um, Speaker 2 : My, my, my absolute North star in this industry, the way that you work, your information and the way that you treat people, the character that you have, your integrity, all of it. I'm super proud to call you a friend and I appreciate you being on the show. Speaker 3 : You're probably one of my favorite guys too, man. Speaker 2 : I knew it. I knew it. Oh, there he goes. We'll see you in Pittsburgh. DJ. Have a good night, dude. Love you, buddy. All right. Can't wait to be with DJ in Pittsburgh. That's going to be awesome. Uh, next week we're going to have more. Speaker 3 : For you. We're going to have a couple of episodes. I'll do my last mock draft. That'll be 3.0 right before the draft. And then after the draft, we're going to get into, uh, some more college football content and wrap up spring ball. I'm going to have my, uh, post spring top 25 that's coming in the next few weeks. So again, we'll have a couple of episodes next week, Monday, and then right before the draft. And, uh, that 3.0 mock draft will drop next week, right here on the Joel class show. If you're not a subscriber, you need to be a subscriber. Go ahead and hit that button down below. You can subscribe to the show, hit the notification button as well. You'll know when all of our content drops. And then if you haven't followed us on social media, we are wherever you are on social media. If you like Tik TOK, we're on Tik TOK. So go and follow us on social media, agile class show. You can get all of our content in short form out. They're going to be, um, a nice little sprint here to the 20, 26 NFL draft. It should be a good one. Again. Thanks to Daniel Jeremiah. Go follow him at move the sticks, check everything out. That he does. He's awesome until then, until next week, I'm Joel clap. Have a great week. FanDuel is now available everywhere in the U S so you can get in on the sports action. 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