Dani Donovan on Motivation, Procrastination, and Her Viral Memes

I ended up making this ADHD storytelling flow chart that shows, you know, how other people tell a story with a start of story and end of story and then how I tell a story, which is a pre-story prologue and then it goes into all these like semi-related side-to-age ins and then ends with not just end of story but like apologize, right? For taking up so much time and space. Ever find yourself stuck in the push pull of wanting to get things done but just not feeling it, you're not alone. Today we're unpacking this all-too-common dilemma with someone who's not just been there but has also turned it into an art form. I'm excited to have Danny Donovan with me. She's not only an author and ADHD advocate but also the creative mind behind those viral images you've probably seen floating around on social media. Her book, The Anti-Planer, How to Get Stuff Done When You Don't Feel Like It, is a game changer. We're going to chat about how emotions and our ability to get things started are deeply connected. Why procrastination isn't just about being lazy and some real deal strategies for tackling those tough unmotivated moments. That's all coming up on episode 210. I'm Emily Kircher-Morris and this is the Neurodiversity Podcast. What is neurodiversity? You see the world at different levels. Autism spectrum. You see the complexities that are inherently inside. ADHD. Disgraph the answer. Inbranes are different. You are exactly what this world means. This is the neurodiversity podcast. We love producing this podcast and we love that you are listening. If you appreciate the information that we share, we would love your support. And these are some things that you can do in just a couple of seconds. The next time you're in a conversation with someone, pass along our podcast name. Follow our pages on social media and share them with folks online. Or just take a few seconds and leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. All of this helps us move forward as we work to create a neurodiversity affirming world. Okay, my conversation with Danny is up next. Previously on the Neurodiversity Podcast, we describe these autistic behaviors from the outside. What we see these kids doing when they struggle. And we describe that as the definition of autism. That there's these deficits in social ability because we want them to be more social. And there's these deficits in their restrictive repetitive behaviors because we want them to be more flexible. And these are grievances. It's not what autism feels like on the inside. And this is also true in the anxiety community. You're avoiding this. We need you to go to school. We need you to eat these foods because it's difficult on a caregiver or it's difficult on the support people. And that can be a big motivation for people to want to change. But we want people who are entering into therapy to think about what their own goals are and not just be responding to the grievances of their community. That's episode 199. Find it wherever you get your podcast. Danny Donovan is with me today. Danny is a creator, author, and ADHD advocate. And even if you don't recognize her name, you've probably seen some of her viral images circulating on social media. She's also the author of the anti-planar. How to get stuff done when you don't feel like it. Danny, I am thrilled to talk to you today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. So, Danny, just to start us off, I would love to hear a bit about your rise on social media and the fact that you are known for these images that you create. Can you describe what exactly it is that you create and how you began doing what you do? Yes, I will do my best to keep the answer relatively concise. So I was a graphic designer and illustrator for my career. And I had started a new job at Gallup as a designer and had started talking to some of my co-workers. I heard one of them talking openly about therapy. And I just never heard, even with any of my friends, I had never heard anyone talking about what they were working through therapy. And so I felt really much more open to you, tell people I had ADHD. And we were able to kind of make some inside jokes about it because other people did too. And so I ended up making this ADHD storytelling flow chart that shows how other people tell a story with the start of story and end of story and then how I tell a story which is the pre-story prologue and then it goes into all these semi-related side tangents. And then ends with not just end of story but like apologize, right? And so I made it with the attention of it just being a thing for us. And I said to her, it's because this is so you. And I'm like, "I know I made it." And so she told me I needed to post it online and I wasn't going to because my our boss followed me on Instagram and my family was on my Facebook. And so she goes, "Well, you can post it on Twitter because you don't have, you know, I've had a few hundred followers at the time." And I was like, "No one's gonna see it." So it blew up. This was in late 2018. And so one of the only other like I would say, the podcast and authors and blogs, like there have been people talking about ADHD for a very long time. But as far as like purely social media ADHD creators, that was not as big of a thing. It was like Jessica McCabe and her YouTube channel had been a real big inspiration for me. Anyways, all this to say. So I started making more comics. It was not my plan to like set out and make comics. It was because the first one I made took off and the response and the comments of people who were like, "I feel so seen and like I'm able to show this to my family." And so I was really excited to give people the opportunity to have more tools to be able to express themselves with loved ones. I ended up getting on TikTok and again, the lane was kind of open. There were a lot of people making ADHD content. Had one that went viral. I'm like, "I guess I'm making ADHD content here too." And then I ended up trying to switching over to creating the anti-planner when I had started keeping a log of all of my coping skills. Because I realized I was using a bunch of them. I kept forgetting about things that had worked for me in the past. So I just started writing them down and then I realized, "There's like 60 things in here. Maybe people would find this useful. I could make a book." And so now I am the founder and CEO of the Anti-Boring Project, which seeks to be able to bring some more fun and entertainment to boring Monday and adult tasks. And so we've got a cool project in the works. So you and I actually met at the International ADHD conference. And we talked real briefly, but I was sharing with you about how as a clinician, I've been able to integrate the activities and some of the gamifying processes and the explanations from the anti-planner with my clients. And for some of those clients who deal with feelings like if they can't do it, it means that they're broken or they just feel like nothing has ever worked and nothing ever will. I love the tone and the style and the short, easy to implement ideas that you have in there, because it really has gotten through to some of my clients. And they've found some really great ideas that perhaps they maybe wouldn't have even tried before. And I think that's part of the appeal of what you do is that it's just really approachable for people. That's really what I've tried to do the whole time. What I was with all of my content is to make it what accessibility looks like is different for a bunch of different groups, right? And so I've got to talk. I also do talks at big companies now. And one of the ones that I love giving is designing for the ADHD brain, understanding and accommodating executive dysfunction. And so being able as a designer, right? I got my bachelor of fine arts in visual communication and design. And so one of the things of understanding your audience and being a part of that audience is being really conscious of are the people I'm making this for actually going to use this or find this enjoyable or get to the end, right? And so videos that are too long or books that are too long or comics that require me to zoom in to read things. I tried to be really intentional about the idea of would I swipe away from this? Or would I send out an email? Would I read this if I didn't write it? It's hard to ask yourself that question because sometimes you spent so long writing something and you get to it and you start reading and you have to look at it. Like if this was someone else's and not mine that had poured my heart and so it's like what I still care as much. But still engaged with it would it keep my interest? And so being able to use that as a very real litmus test of the, I'm say, consumability of this content. But the reality is that for many of us, the thing we struggle with is attention and focus. And so if you're giving me five pages to get to the point of something that could have been said in one page with a bunch of bullets, you know, I know which one I'm going to go for. Yeah, for sure. Well, let's get into some of the nitty-gritty stuff that actually I think people are really seeking. And so I want to start off just by talking about how in the neurodiversity community, we talk frequently about executive functioning, we talk a lot about emotional regulation, but we don't always talk about the intersection of these two areas. But we also know when someone is feeling dysregulated, it can be really hard. to put executive functioning skills to work in those moments. So this might be a little bit of a chicken in an egg type question, but which comes first? Emotional regulation or executive functioning? - Yeah, that is a chicken in the egg thing. I think it really, I hate to be like, "It depends on the situation, "but I do think it is situational." So I just came from the optometrist, right? And so I need to get new glasses, and I think that I want contacts. And so I won't go into all of the details, but the last time I got contacts, they hurt my eye, I kept getting headaches. They felt like they were too strong. They were painful. My eyes were like twitching and hurt. And so I had used my insurance credits to buy the contacts, and then I didn't open the box when it came in the mail. And I could have returned them to get my money back. And that just felt too hard. And that was two years ago. And this time I go in and there's, I was met with the same situation where I thought, well, maybe this time will be different. And the log is sort of is I found myself in a situation where I was leaving the store, having ordered the contacts, because my insurance will cover more contacts than glasses. I guess bought the glasses, paid for the contacts, ragers covered the contacts, and I realized my eyes are starting to hurt now. And I did not realize that when I did it. And so someone said, oh, you can just go back, just go back and tell them and have them switch, I'm like, that's gonna take time, that's gonna take work. And it's, oh, well, come on, they come in the mail, just return them. And I'm like, when they come in the mail, just return, how are you joking me? Like returning things is hard. And calling people and having these conversations is hard. And I realized that I had, and I've done this before. And so that was the little cherry on top is the, I feel like I fell into the same mistake that I made before and I was so upset with myself before. And I learned, I went out to the car and sort of crying. And now I'm crying part of it. I feel stupid for, I feel anxious, I feel worried that I'm not going to show up for myself to be able to get my money back for something that I'm paying for. And so the dysregulation that happened as a result of this fear of executive dysfunction because of past experiences and the emotional dysregulation. Like I really think it is just sort of a merry-go-round. - Yeah, I would have been surprised if you could identify one more than the other, but I was just kind of curious on your perspective. I do feel like they're really closely related. But so often we talk about them in isolation. - I really think that the, so the whole, that was a long anecdote, but the whole thing with the anti-prayette right is the intersection between how our negative emotions impact our ability to get things done. And so that emotional dysregulation of feeling anxious or having had negative past experiences or feeling like guilt or boredom or resentment, having those, especially like emotionally disregulated feelings, makes it so much more difficult and exacerbates the existence of what I would say is existing executive dysfunction because I could have executive dysfunction about something that I don't, that I'm not emotionally disregulated by. But I start to get emotionally dysregulated as soon as I keep thinking about the thing or wanting to do the thing and knowing what I need to do and not doing it. And then now I'm starting to get into the tailspin of emotional dysregulation where I am angry at myself. And so I think that that is where, if I had to say more frequently than not, again, it can be either a situation, but I find a lot of the emotional dysregulation comes from past experiences of not being able to get myself to do things that I want to. - Well, and it's so closely tied to some of that rejection sensitivity that we talked about in ADHD. I mean, I would say in neurodivergence in general, but specifically usually that's, we talk about it within the context of ADHD where again, you have these past experiences, perhaps some of that chronic stress or little T trauma that's associated with that. And so then that really triggers or initiates that emotional response, right? I mean, it's just automatic and it's hard then to back off of it. - Especially that idea of the like, this happened last time it's gonna happen again. And I think that within the context of neurodiverency, and again, I don't wanna say like go too far sideways with this, but I have been told by multiple clinicians now that they're like, you have OCD tendencies, but they're not, they don't negatively impact your life typically in enough of a way that you need to get treatment for OCD. And so then when people say like, "Oh, everybody has a little bit of ADHD." It's like people can have ADHD tendencies. It's once it gets to the point where it's negatively impacting your life in multiple areas and it's distressing that you need help for that thing. And so as far as the OCD and the anxiety and all these things kind of baked into the rumination aspect or the idea that this happened once, it's always gonna happen. Or this happened once, and I need to do everything I can to prevent the uncertainty of not knowing if this will happen again. And until I can be certain that nothing bad will happen, I'm not gonna act on it yet. And so I think there's a lot of that kind of self protection, like self-defense sort of mechanisms of, I would rather not do anything than start and disappoint myself. - Yeah, well that really leads me kind of to my next piece here, you know, executive functioning skills. First of all, there's no way really to isolate executive functioning skills, right? Like they're all so layered on top of each other. And although we often try to talk about them as individual skills, I think it's really helpful for us to recognize that you can't have response inhibition or impulse control without also having some planning and priority, like they're all kind of mixed in there together. But for our conversation today, we are going to try to isolate one, specifically in relation to that emotional regulation. And that is about task initiation, which is kind of just a fancy way of saying, are you procrastinating? So to start us on this conversation, how do you define procrastination? And are there certain ways that this frequently shows up that we might see in a lot of different people or are there some that are more prevalent than others? - As far as how I would describe what procrastination is, is and is it? Because a lot of people think that it's like laziness or a character defecting or personality defect something, it says something about you as a person if you procrastinate, right? That you don't care enough. Because if you cared, you would do it, right? That's not gonna like weigh on myself, esteem at all, right? But what procrastination is, is often it, right, that avoidance, chronic avoidance of uncertainty, chronic avoidance of something that doesn't sound good, something that we have, the negative past experiences. So some sort of anxiety producing action that needs to be taken. And the anxiety might not be because I'm overwhelmed or intimidated because it's got so many steps or I don't know where to start. Sometimes it's, I'm anxious because I know I'm not gonna like it. Sometimes it's, I'm anxious because I don't have to do it. So I now I'm feeling stressed up, well, I could technically be doing something fun and I don't know that I need to do this so I'm arguing with myself. So I think that there is that general, like avoidance of those negative emotions. And so I find myself in a few different scenarios of different types of procrastination because there's procrastination that stems from like a perfectionistic aspect, right? Where I have this important thing to get done. And I like, let's say a PowerPoint, right, I have a talk that I'm giving. And I'm doing the working on the PowerPoint and I have initiated the task and I'm working on it. And the content is what matters. And I've started on the content, but right now I'm working on the layout and I'm a designer. And I could just sit in there, sit in the hyper focus, sit in the amount of time that I want to be spending on the part of this task that I want to be working in and then realize, oh my God, I've spent eight hours like playing around with color options and font options or whatever it is. And I have wasted all of my time and I not wasted. But I spent all my time on something that is relatively unimportant to the actual content of the talk because I lost myself down this rabble. But I've been working on it the whole talk, right? So I did get distracted, but I got distracted like within the task because my perfectionism and interest in what I was doing got kind of got the better of me in those moments. And then I think that there's the procrastination that happens when we are able to rationalize why we can't in that moment. Well, I can't do that until I do this and I can't do that unless I do this. And there's all these free requisites. And so we realize how many layers, deep the task that we need to start is because the to-do list is technically much, much longer than this simple thing. And instead of taking the time to necessarily write down all of those steps, we just keep them in our head. And it feels big even though the actual task itself might seem small. Ultimately, what I found is the reason why chronic procrastinators procrastinate is because it's worked for us before. Being able, if it didn't, we wouldn't do it. If it never, there's times where it doesn't work out as well. But if I slide in under the deadline and I turn in something that's not my best work, I get to tell myself, it's because I ran out of time. It's not because I had plenty of time and I didn't do a good job. I could have done a great job if I had more time. It's like this wonderful built-in protection, again, the self-defense mechanism of shielding myself from the disappointment of letting myself down because I simply let the clock run out. And what happens frequently is that fire on a red butt forces me to not get hyper-focused on the wrong thing because you've got that ticking clock. And so you are forced to be efficient, cut corners, and to problem solve in that amount of time. So it feels very efficient versus if you give me a joke that I'm like a gas, or if you give me enough time to work on something like I will expand to fill the amount of time given. So I've learned that one of the things that we do is it's worked out for us in the past. And so we continue to repeat that because rather than the prefrontal cortex activating and helping us realize that this is what we need to do and this is the step we need to do it. And we're going to start on this now. It's waiting for the emotions and the anxiety to flare up so your amygdala is really active and we can go into doing the things because it's emotion during that now. So one quick story that I want to share that I thought of as you were talking is I can remember specifically one particular time where I needed to get something to somebody a client. It wasn't like super urgent, but it was just some documentation or something that they had requested. And then they had emailed me about something else later on and they're like, and by the way, I don't need that thing. And so I emailed back and I literally said procrastination pays off again. It was like very, this was someone I had a really good rapport with. I could joke with them about that. So you mentioned that pressure almost like fight, fight, freeze where I'm under the wire. I have to get it done. And if I don't get it done, there's going to be a really negative consequence. And I have so many clients like this because I work a lot with young clients, a lot of them are teens or in their early 20s, you know, and they're in college and everything. And they will be so frustrated with themselves. I want to get started. I want to do these things. I want to try these other projects and they have a hard time getting started on it, but especially related to their schoolwork, they have a really hard time not procrastinating until there's that deadline there. And sometimes what I kind of help them come to terms with in some ways is like, well, if that's what's working for you, if that stimulation of that panic moment gets you going, you can accept that part of yourself a little bit and kind of recognize that authentic piece of yourself without beating yourself up about it. But then maybe also there's another solution, perhaps that might be better later on down the line too. I was just talking about this was someone yesterday, which for me, right, it's the issue that we run into that we were just discussing was getting used to using the fire under your butt as motivation. And when the fire is not there, the get, you know, I can't get started because there's no fire. And why would I have to get started if there's not a fire there? And the anxiety threshold, even when it comes to like my living space or my, the laundry piloting up there, I will let it pile up. It will be the background. I won't notice it. I won't notice it happening until it gets to a certain point where I start to feel guilty. And then it gets even more to a point where now I'm anxious and it crosses this anxiety threshold where my brain is like, no, not doing this. And goes into, you know, hyper drive and does eight loads of laundry. And then, you know, my back hurts because I've been folding laundry all day. I'm like, oh, laundry's the worst. When in reality, it's right. If you wouldn't have let that pilot, you wouldn't have done that. But I beat myself up forever about like, why can't I stay tidy? Why can't I just do a little bit? Why can't I? And what I've come to terms with and I talk about this in the book is if that doesn't work for you, if you keep trying and that's not working, you keep trying and that's not working. And you are able to accept the fact that you let things get really, really messy. And then you do a, you would, when it becomes now, it's a project. Now it's a before and after picture, right? When it turns from a chore into a project, and that's what motivates you. And you go through the cycle so long as, you know, you're not doing something like putting yourself in or others in danger because you've got like moldy stuff that is creating and like unsafe living environment. If it's just cluttered and eventually you'll take care of it, if you can accept that that's the cycle, you could be a lot less mad at yourself every single time it happens because it's not a surprise. It's a, this is the process. And if I know now it's not a matter of am I ever going to clean this up? What is the matter with me? When will I get my stuff together? It is a, do I feel like cleaning up the mess now? Like am I past that threshold or do I still got some more, some more mess in me, you know, but being honest with yourself about am I truly trying to force myself to change my behavior in a way that's not sustainable and all that's going to set me up is for these cycles of disappointment and low self-esteem? Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying earlier too about how society has assigned these values to things, right? And so there's always this shame that's associated with it too that we've picked up on from the outside world. And if you're, are not tidy, it's because you're lazy or if you're disorganized, it's because you're unmotivated or whatever it is. And there's this valuing system that we assign these traits when really that's not what they're about. It's about different skills, different needs, all of these different pieces, but it's so hard to unlearn that when that's what we've always heard from our teachers when we were very young, to our bosses when we're adults. One of the things I finally also come to terms with is that so I like, oh my god, other people keep their houses so so clean and tidy. And then when I find out that they spend their entire weekend, their entire all of their free time, grocery shopping, meal prep, and cleaning their house, you know, doing all this stuff to maintain this level of what they've been told is supposed to be the norm. This is the amount where you are beyond like criticism versus me realizing I spend a lot of my time doing what I want, doing fun things because I have decided I don't care about dusting until I can see the dust, you know, I don't care about cleaning out my sink every single week. The amount of stuff because you know, people like that's unscited. I'm like, nothing has happened to me. Like nothing. I will take those hours of getting to like, watch a new TV show, right, and enjoy my life instead of giving those hours, especially depending on how many times you have people or but I'm like, who am I trying to impress? We have to keep a certain level of cleanliness of vacuuming and because we've got cats and our son is lifted to cats. So, you know, beyond just the the allergy medicine, it's, it's okay. There's a reason why we are tidying up this much because if we don't, he will be sniffly and we can't bear to get rid of the cats. Right. And so we are able to mitigate that by maintaining a certain level of cleanliness about these certain things. But other stuff, again, it's realizing it's a matter of value. I don't value cleaning my shower out every two weeks compared to spending that time doing something I actually want to do because it is, you can't have, you've all got the same amount of time. And if we actually broke down someone whose house is really tidy at my time and I was able to look at them, I'm like, oh, mine looks way more fun. Actually, I prefer this one. Thank you very much. Yeah. I'm like a man's gallop. They've got the Clifton Strengths, a whole thing which isn't like a personality test as much as it is. There are 34 human, human traits and here are the order that you are sort of present and here are your, the top ones that seem to rise to where you're at. And I was at this seminar and everyone had a little name card that had their top 10. And everybody had at my table discipline, responsibility, all of these types of executing tasks. They literally is their purple label for this group of traits is called executing. And mine were all relationship building, influencing strategic stuff. You know, I had activator, which is like, you're really good at kicking off projects and woo, which is really good at winning others over. And I looked around and I at first, I felt so bad for myself, but I was comparing myself and like, oh, my God, I'm not a good employee. Like I don't have responsibility. I don't have this stuff. Does that mean I'm irresponsible? And then I realized as the seminar kept going, right, I'm the only person like raising my hand and responding to the teacher. And I kind of stopped and I go, if I had these higher up in my strengths, it would mean that these other things were lower down. Everybody can't be everything. And so would I rather be good at starting things and good at. you know, errors charisma and good at communication and good at relationship building. Or would I rather have responsibility and discipline? Yeah. I wish I could have everything. But if I had to pick, I would go with the fun one, not the boring one, not boring. That's it, you know, crap on anybody who's responsible and disciplined. But, uh, but you can't have it all. And so when it comes down to it, judging ourselves against other people instead of looking at them and saying, well, you don't have the strength that I have, I'm actually really, really creative or I'm actually, uh, really great in a crisis or I'm actually really great at anticipating other people's needs and being really non-judgemental and a great listening. We don't judge people about that. We judge people. I can see your house is messier than mine. So I feel superior. Yeah. I'm just curious. Are there some specific strategies that you have really found to kind of balance that emotional regulation and procrastination issue? The emotional disorder, it depends on which type of emotional emotional, emotional dysregulation covers like the whole gamut of a bunch of different stuff. So in the book, right, the strategies are broken down by the stuck overwhelmed, unmotivated, disorganized and discouraged. And so a lot of my emotional dysregulation comes from the, I would say the overwhelm and the discouraged sections. Those feel like, you know, being unmotivated or being stuck, those can still involve feeling emotionally, dysregulate feeling frustrated with myself. But overwhelmed often is, is obviously fear. A lot of anxiety, stress and overwhelm and the discouragement of feeling hopeless and sad and hard on myself. And not just unmotivated, where I'm bored and I don't want to, right? Or I don't have accountability. I don't want to. But the, the things that I've found particularly helpful as far as anxiety goes is being able to pinpoint what those internal roadblocks are. Right? So I want to be doing this thing, sitting down and writing that, why am I not doing this thing? Let me actually document like, I've got a task in play for me, let me write out the reasons why I'm not doing it. And then I actually feel kind of just like, just silly, anxious about it, because I can look at it and say, well, look how many, but how many things there are. And so I get to do all my little gripes about why I don't want to. And what I have found, I actually don't have this in the anti-planet. This is a separate thing that I do on my own that I'm excited to share with people. But this is the first time I've ever talked about it. I write down all the reasons I don't want to do it. And then I assign numbers to those, to those gripes. And see if I can identify for some of them, like, oh, I information is required that I don't have or assistance is required that I don't have or physical energy and effort is required that and all of these kind of requirements or restrictions. I put the numbers next to each of the gripes. And then I write out, here are the steps that I need to do in order to get this done. So one of the last one they did was like buying a dresser. It's like, I need to research dressers. I need to choose a dresser. I need to purchase a dresser. I need to get rid of the old dresser. And I need to set up the new one. And I go through these numbered, why I don't want to use. And I assign them which ones of these go with which steps. And then when I set off to deal with these roadblocks, I have a map. I have a I am starting with research and and the two problems that I have that are associated with research. I can forget all the other reasons that I want to do this. I only have to focus on these two that are on the first step. So it really helps to sift through those emotions, sift through those problems and anxieties and worries. And let's me focus on really focus down on these are what I need to deal with first. And then when these are done, I can move on to the next step and the next set of problems that comes with that. I love that being able to just really identify specifically what the difficulty is. And then you can solve that that specific problem for that one. And then move on to the next piece. It requires a lot of like self, I've been in therapy for a long time. So I will say that that it's a skill building that self awareness of why you don't want to do something does not come as easy to everyone. Sometimes they're like, I can't put words to it. I might not be able to think through exactly what is bothering me about this. And so I think that people building that skill of, if you can't think of it right away, sit with it. Just have a piece of paper in front of you and let yourself really like feel that like what thoughts and what emotions are coming to you and can you parse that into reasons versus, you know, shrugging ago, I can't come up with anything off the top of my head. I think that it requires a certain level of willing to be uncomfortable because you do have to sift through the reasons. And again, you could get to a point where it's like, well, now I'm getting anxious because I'm thinking about all the reasons I don't want to do it. That's making me not want to do it more. But I think that there's a certain level of, yeah, if you come at it with the attitude of I'm doing this because I want to solve this problem, deciding that you want to do something about it is really the first step for all of this. So this brings us to our final question. I'm certain that as an ADHD or you have fallen into that procrastination trap, we've talked about it a little bit here on this conversation. And I'm sure that sometimes we're easier to break out of it than others. So if you could think back to a time when you were feeling really stuck and overwhelmed, is there any advice that you think you needed to hear at that time? Like if you could go back and give yourself some words of encouragement or wisdom, what is it that you would say? Already, I'm like, if I could go back, you mean like this morning, stop expecting one system to work forever. The fact of the matter is that the interest-based productivity, the times that I get the most done is when I'm inspired, when things are new, when things are interesting, and I haven't been doing them for weeks and weeks. And instead of being angry that I failed at something, looking at things like a challenge or an experiment, right? And if something worked for a while, and I stopped doing it, it means that it stopped serving me and it's time to like get my little brain to go, "Ooh, what are we going to do next?" Instead of, "Oh, we stopped doing it." And realizing that my system is collecting systems. So so long as they're written down, and I'm able to remember what has worked for me in the past, or what might work again if I tweaked this little thing from what I learned last time, that what happens over time is being able to lean into who I am instead of pretending to shove myself into a mold of what I'm not. Danny Donovan, author of The Antiplanter. Thanks so much for your time today. Thank you for having me. We all have our preferred ways of handling procrastination. Mine tends to be a delicate balance of having way too much on my plate, and a lot of people relying on me with a splash of perfectionism that motivates me. The deadline and the clock ticking on the wall are a great motivator, although it does come with the side effect of feeling anxious and trying to keep all of those balls in the air. Nonetheless, recognizing what works for us and what doesn't is valuable to figure out how we can move forward. If you're looking for some ways to manage all of the things, be sure to check out Danny's websites, anti-hiphonplanter.com and ADHDDD.com. I'm Emily Kircher-Moris, and I'll see you next time on the Neurodiversity podcast. [Music] I am strolling alone, just minding my business, humming a song. I'm happy by myself not caring the world. This is a life just to me myself and I. I am watching the clouds, up in the sky all but laughing alone, I'm telling you why I'm living the life just me myself and I. [Music] We appreciate Danny Donovan for joining us. There are links to her work in the show notes. Also, yeah, you should really check out her TikToks. Pretty good stuff. Some of it hits a little too close to home. Our host is Emily Kircher-Moris, our office manager and social media director is Krista Brown. I'm the executive producer Dave Morris. For all of us, thank you for listening and we will see you next time. [Music] I'm happy again. Life is a blessing if I think of you. Ain't a thing that I've been missing. I'm here on my own. Just say you're the song. Now that you're gone, I'm happy alone. Just me myself and I. This is a service of the Neurodiversity Alliance.