Dani Donovan on ADHD, Executive Dysfunction & The Anti-Planner: Working With Your Brain Instead of Against it

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Nero Divergent Connection. Have you ever fought? What can't I do simple things? Everyone else seems to handle? My guest today is taking those quiet, frustrating thoughts so many of us carry and turn them into art that makes millions feel understood. This is a conversation about ADHD, identity, creativity and what happens when you realize you are never broken just wired differently. So sit back, relax and grab your favorite beverage and let's learn more about it. See you there, everyone. I'm going to be doing a little bit of a conversation with you guys. Today I am joined with the very own Danny Donovan, the creator of the Anthem Planter. Welcome to the show Danny. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. So now let's start off with, before ADHD had a language in your life. What did your world feel like from the inside? That is such a good question. I'm just a bit confused and chaotic. Definitely are two words that I would use to describe it. You know, isolating, wild. And some of it was just getting me in trouble all the time for things that didn't understand why I was getting in trouble for asking questions. And as, as a kid, like authority figures, I went to Catholic school and they don't like when you ask lots and lots of say questions. So I was getting demerits all the time. And so I, I, from a very young age, was kind of getting these messages. That's like, this is how we've always done things. Don't, don't ask why. Because I don't want to, you know, especially with it. I think adults, if adults are like, I don't want to, I guess that's what kind of made me successful as a, you know, business person now is making a product that says, you know, we've been doing this one way for such a long time. Why, why can't there be something different? So it's interesting that a lot of those kind of tendencies are still here. But I find that growing up the biggest things that I, that I didn't have was like a reason that people just thought I was making excuses for everything. And so being able to eventually kind of find that language so that I could feel understood, made all the difference. I mean, that reminds me of a story. I mean, one of the things that really sticks in my head is the fact that schools aren't equipped for people like us who are neurodivergent. They don't know how our brains operate. They don't know how we think. I mean, and like I said, my story is from a friend of mine who told me he went to, he went to take a community college class and something. And they're teaching them how to do it one way and he's doing another and they're like, no, no, no, you got to do it our way. And he's like, why? When I can do it this way and still get to the solution. And he's like, at that point, it wasn't worth arguing. You just dropped a class. I feel that in my bones. I was in, I took, I got to see in marketing in high school, which I was ridiculous because I, I was like this, this way. Of marketing, I think would really, you know, really work because I have a very like meta sense of humor. And, but it wasn't what was in the book. It wasn't for projects and stuff. Like I could pass all the tests just fine. But the projects like were not doing things the exact same way as some of this other stuff. And so I was not getting the best grades. And it's hilarious now because having, you know, made something and done all of the marketing and having, having done well. I'm like, see, I knew it. You all didn't, you know, listen, but I think that we find ourselves, you know, in those boxes, a lot of the time. That this is, this is how it's always been done. And the difficulty that we have with fitting in. Because a lot of fitting in is sit down, shut up and don't ask questions. I mean, that kind of reminds me of a story of myself of when I was in high school, I took a typing class. And back then, we are already using computers. And my, my teacher got mad at me because I was using the backspace key to erase my mistakes. And she's like, don't do that. And I'm like, why? That's what the backspace key is for. It's like the instant white out for the new modern age. Like, no, we're trying to teach you not to use the backspace to do your correct or mistakes that comes later. Like, I've already used a computer. I know how to type on a computer. And so she kicked me out of the class. What were you supposed to do just leave in there? I don't know, but she got upset because I was using it way ahead of the lesson. I'm always ahead of the lesson because I think to, I always think two steps ahead. Yep. Yeah, you're like, I'm solving problems before I even like, you've even told me that there are problems. And I think that a lot of us do kind of do that because of the pattern recognition. You're like, oh, clearly this is what's going to happen next. And I do remember like, don't, don't, don't work ahead. You saying that just like unlocked some core memory for me of getting in trouble for like finishing things quickly. And then moving on to the next thing. It's like, no, no, no, don't do that. And I'm like, but I already know what I'm supposed to do. The instructions are right here. Why do I have to wait? And so in fifth grade, my mom asked my teacher, you know, do you think daddy could have ADHD? And it was like, she can't have ADHD. She's too smart, which, okay. That's definitely how that works. But I, she goes, she's, you know, distracting others because I kept finishing my work quicker. And so I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. time. It's like I don't want to be doing this. Why do I keep doing this to myself? And that's what a disorder like is. And so it wasn't until I got like some talk therapy and I found like Jessica McCabe's YouTube channel and saw her video about why like showering is hard and was bawling my face off over these simple videos that just gave me permission to to to step back and be like, oh I'm not a failure as a person. You mean that this is difficult because it's boring and this is you know this can all of these things that I had been angry at myself about all had a reason. And so being able to step back and find out how to look at struggles and ask myself could this be my ADHD and if it is what part of my ADHD and then being able to address that problem instead of think that like I am the problem all the time. I mean that's why when I went away to college for my masters I never told anybody I had autism except for my disability advisor. And the funny thing was as time went on people served the people I became friends with slowly realized there is something wrong. I'm different than all of them. And it's like he's trying so hard and he's saying things he shouldn't say and and my friends realized maybe we should help him. And I remember after I graduated one of my friends sent me a message one day we're talking back and forth and we see out of the below she goes can I ask you a question I'm like sure she was are you autistic and my mouth just dropped. How did you know? How did you know? Yeah and I'm like she's like well I part of my psychology program was I was working with younger kids who were autistic and you have some of the truth. And that just my mind is how people can pick up these traits but like you were saying when I was in college I had no help. I was always trying to be two steps ahead and I was trying to fall in behind and I was beating myself up. Why? It's interesting as an adult even like I'm really glad that we kind of stumbled into the two steps ahead train them like thought because I hadn't I've been talking to someone on my team about how I was struggling to fill out this form to talk to somebody about like now that I run a company I need to talk to somebody about switching potentially switching healthcare plans and there was this form they've got before I scheduled consultation and there are questions on it about like tell me about your situation and it's complicated and I you know was struggling like knowing what to say because this is also like a paid consultation and it's only 30 minutes and I talk a lot and so I'm like okay I need to like make sure that I'm giving the context in the background but I don't know how to phrase it and I don't know how to do this and I don't have the answers to this and I talk to someone about what I was struggling with and they go you don't have to tell her everything and I'm like no but I you know I do because I'm pre anticipating the me rambling and then using up all the time and not getting advice you know part of this call because of the pattern recognition and I go but she's gonna ask me about this and this and this and I don't have the answers so until I find the answers I can't do this and and she was like you know you are like uncertain about how to answer questions that she has not asked you yet yes oh my god and it's causing a lot of things I've learned there's a term for that it's called anticipatory anxiety oh my god I need to write that down because I had a guy oh I'm not sure a long time back and he's got OCD I have that because those he's called OCD dead and I told him about that he's like it's called anticipatory anxiety because you're over anticipating what's going to happen before it even happened yikes I have I have yeah I have some OCD issues too so I just I did just write that down I will be researching it immediately after this call thank you there's nothing I love more than finding out that there's like a term for an experience yeah and I think that that's one of the things that has happened so much especially with this community like finding out you know that like like rejection sensitivity it's like oh this experience I have kind of like has a label you know and to people like oh you need labels for everything I'm like labels are helpful when it is something that feels a theory you know a theory and like does not have a kip pin point what it is and oh my god I was talking last night with my stepson he's 12 and you know he was making some joke about how like Newton like just he's like discovering gravity you know the first person who like fell off a mountain discovered gravity like oh discovery it's like no it somebody's got to give things like a name somebody's got to like even if you can know that something is true until you are able to verbalize it it is just like it exists but it doesn't have it's not like realized it's not a thing that we can talk about and so I think that having things like anticipatory anxiety or rejection sensitivity or you know what some of the they just fun ones that aren't you know like you know they're not medical terms like revenge bedtime procrastination is not a medical term but it is a an experience that now when I say that people you know can can know what it is that is being talked about and then that conversation can go from there rather than trying to explain the concept and hopefully you know getting it across right I mean one of the greatest examples of that is I had is I went to a podcast conference and I'm all nervous and everything and in my head I'm thinking I'm just gonna be this little wallflower not talk to anybody you know it's gonna come talking to me I get there and it's like I'm just just big bundle of energy and I'm talking to everybody going hey are you a podcaster or are you a or a sponsor or who are you and then I remember this was invagation that at the elevator if the end of the day we're all waiting for our elevators and I just cracked this joke and go okay everybody put down your best which elevator doors been open for and then everyone just broke into laughter and it's like oh my god I'm like this talking machine I'm talking to everybody talking to those vendors and talking to everyone and like oh my god and then I love it though when you're like oh I'm on a roll like I'm on fire you know there's nothing that's like more fun than making like a group of people laugh yeah but the worst experience I got was I had to get Keith pulled and I want I told my dentist I need to be put out for it because I had two wisdom teeth pulled and another broken tooth and I'm all nerves about everything and there is in this and my mind keeps going to me you're not gonna get it pulled right away you're gonna have to do something first you're gonna have to have a a consultation first the figure out what's going on with you and everything and then my mind I'm like no no no they're gonna do it they're gonna do it I get there and I walk up and it's a one of behind the desk goes I go I wonder they're gonna pull my teeth and put me out to say honey no they're not gonna do that right now they gotta do a consultation birth and then all of a sudden all the feeling in my hands come back I go from thing Tom and sweaty to feeling warm I'm like yeah my mom's like so yeah I told you oh my god I just I think that the the the experiences that we have of like just imagining how bad things are going to be because now especially with the anti-planer like figuring out what is causing avoidance and what and there's often like a there is a train of thought that goes along with it there it's not just like there is no reason list procrastination procrastination always comes from somewhere and that or avoidance or because you're you at least were there to me it's like getting yourself in a situation where you're even able to like overcome that fear to overcome that anxiety of I'm convinced that this is gonna happen and and get there to even find out that that's not the case is challenging now when you look back what do you understand about the version of yourself that you didn't then a lot of my struggles were actually with like social such like I was a social situations not because um I didn't know how to act in in in social situations so much as I had a difficult time keeping friends um because I very good at making friends but like relationship maintenance is a type of maintenance and I now can see as an adult maintenance is very hard because it does not give quite as many you know brain chemicals I think you know car maintenance house maintenance relationship maintenance um you know home home maintenance like all of these things that are just like upkeep versus getting a new thing or um you know dealing with like some sort of big problem and um I struggled because I kept feeling like oh I have friends I have this group I have people I get along with and within groups it's like and then suddenly there was something that would happen and nobody would tell me what and it felt like something clicked and everybody thought I was annoying and now I was someone to pick on and so then I ended up in situations where I was getting bullied by friends and and we you know a lot of times like we give each other shit like we don't oh sorry I didn't ask if it's okay to cut on this uh okay um and and I didn't clock at first that nobody else was like I couldn't make fun of anybody else but everybody could make fun of me and that is not okay and it happened you know kind of frog and a boiling pot style until you start talking to someone else about it and they're like that's not okay you know that's not normal but it's still difficult to kind of like get myself out of those those sometimes like toxic situations it depends on who it is and and again things are not black and white and it's not like people are you know oh these people are like bad people like absolutely not but it's one we're being the subject of gossip is very challenging being the subject of anybody like making fun of me especially anything for being like annoying is challenging and so being able to as an adult step back and and see kind of what that is what it is and a lot of that is being misunderstood like it's still the same kind of the same as a answer as as as earlier which is so much of my ADHD experience revolves around people not understanding me and so that's why I love doing what I do and I'm sure you love doing what you do is like helping people understand themselves better is really rewarding and it also helps me understand my self better in the process so it's like a win-win now was there a stretch where you were trying so hard and it felt me in felt behind yeah first of your college when I got diagnosed was pretty rough right now right now was actually also is also really hard because I am at the point with my so my book the anti-planar how to get it down we don't feel like it was so much fun to make right it's like a hundred over a hundred strategies of how to do stuff but making it was fun designing it was fun writing it was fun illustrating it was fun so publishing it was hard but like was a new challenge and now is like maintenance and I have to tell a couple people this it's like okay I had a baby and I kind of like didn't think about the fact that you have to like raise a baby and it just gets like harder to deal with as it gets older um well not always but anyways a different type of challenging but it doesn't go away it's like it's exists in the world and it's gonna keep existing and I can't just go make another thing I have to help because I self published I have to take care of this thing and figure out how to get this thing with legs and standing and walking on its own and that's not as fun because I don't have a business background and I'm passionate about business and but I also care so much about authenticity and like over delivering that like it's challenging to give up that control to somebody else and say like okay well I'll just let you have the business and then I'll go make stuff like that requires so much trust and I'm still kind of at the point in my career where I'm trying to learn how to to make time to do the things that I'm good at that bring me joy and still be able to sort of like function but I when you're handling a lot of stuff when you've got stuff going on in your personal life um it can be so challenging to feel like you're staying afloat and on top of that now I get imposter syndrome because I like wrote a book about getting stuff done and so if I'm not getting stuff done like it and I remember I have the book that I like you know and I do and I take it out and I do stuff um but one of the things I'll say for right now at least and I have new sections for future iterations that I'm planning on doing and one of them is like timeline and uh routine list because I found out that the thing that I'm struggling with right now is just straight up time management and I've tried different time management techniques and you know I struggle with them and now the big the big challenge is okay well when I'm struggling with things before I had a fun I made it into a game to invent new ways of like how do I solve this problem in a way that works for me and so like using yourself as a little guinea pig and so now that I've sort of been able to identify that problem I'm working towards what does it look like to focus all of my time and energy and attention on how am I gonna get better at time management um so that's that's sort of where I'm at right now but it's it's currently challenging because again the time management for things I'm not interested in um like dealing with finding you know like I don't want to go to the finance meeting like I don't want to go to um you know don't want to talk to vendor I don't want to talk about my trademarks in China like I don't that's not fun I want to draw stuff but um anyways so it's caught freshman year college and right now I would say are pretty challenging I mean I feel you with the imposters and when I first started I did not think anyone would listen and the voice you know that you get that voice in your head that goes no one's gonna read your book no one's gonna listen to your podcast and you're just like oh god okay how is this gonna be real who's gonna listen to me I'm just some nobody who who's did this and all of a sudden you start seeing for you you start seeing your book sales and for me it's the numbers and it's like wow I'm not in the poster people are actually taking me seriously and then that creates pressure at least for me where for me I felt like I did pre-orders for the book and it got about 40,000 pre-orders so I did know that there was there was a there was a audience for it but it was one where again like that created pressure and now that it's out and it's got you know it's got like a four point essay reading but it sold over a hundred thousand copies and now there's pressure it's like okay well when I do put something new out there I'm not gonna top this like what and if I'm not gonna top this then why do you know why do anything but like being able to to get better is a big motivating factor and if it feels like I came out the gate with a strong with something strong it's challenging because I don't want to disappoint people and I don't want to disappoint myself and so it's much easier to just be like you know doing stuff behind the scenes rather than like put out something imperfect and know about that I mean I wrote a book and right now it's waiting for a publisher and my best friend who's an author says that's the fun part writing it now it's the heart now it's the other fun part getting it picked up I'm like how is that fun you sit there waiting the sarcasm right I hope so I mean he's saying he's a best-selling author and everything and I'm like you do reapply now I'm sitting here waiting for a publisher to pick up my book and I'm wondering if it's good enough yeah the the am I good enough am I doing enough am I and it's difficult because you look at other people who say they're like of course you're enough I am just the one who's not enough I mean yeah I mean I look at all these guests of hand on my show who have books beside you and I'm like okay how did they get their book up published is it self-published did they go for an author a publisher and if they did how did they get a publisher and then it's like you go through this whole rabbit hole why me yeah and so many people are like you got it you know you got to know somebody who knows somebody and so but then if you don't know somebody it's like well now what because I mean like like Jessica knows it's if you got the huge following they come looking for you it's now how many people you have on your platform yeah and it's it and I will say that it's extra I would say it's I got pretty big pretty fast with my comics because my first again my first comic like went viral which is the ADHD storytelling one and uh but this is in 2018 and so there weren't like ADHD comic artists uh really like in that way yet and so the lane was like wide open and and uh there weren't you know hundreds or thousands of of ADHD content like creators and so now I think for everybody it's challenging to like stand out as there's more saturation but at the same time I'm like so happy that that it is a area that has so many voices so many people sharing their experiences so many educators sharing um you know information but it does it does make it challenging to grow kind of in the same way that that it used to now what are that all due to your confidence uh it's I actually got to a point where I kind of stopped caring so much about like my followers um and my following count uh because I realized that at a certain point the more you get the more there's like a sweet spot I think for um not getting so big that you have like a bunch of haters not the bigger you get the more people there are who are going to form who are you know say like negative opinions of you and I'm like I think I'd rather have a smaller group of people who really really like me than uh people who really really like me and then a bunch of people who are like lukewarm but happen to follow me and then people who like don't like me and so I um and also it's like very I don't know uh anyways so like that was difficult the big thing now though is the algorithms like were what set sold the book for so long the organic posts the viral bangers you know are what I was able to sell the book without having to spend money on advertising which was amazing and but it was one where I didn't realize that like that's putting your eggs in in baskets that you don't control and so Twitter Twitter was like bread and butter. I was having huge tweets that were taking off and I was commenting underneath them. Like I don't have soundcloud, but if you struggle with this, you'll probably like my book. And then like Elon bought Twitter and it just like tanked. And it was like this rude awakening. I'm like, okay, well I gotta do other stuff. And then with TikTok, it was like I was having some TikTok things take off. And then things were slowing down. You pay for ads and TikTok realizes once you give us money, we're never gonna just give you an or, why would we give you an organic viral hit when we can make you pay for views? And so now it's at this like challenging thing where as a creator, I am stretched for time. But when I do make content, it's like I feel like this need to like make content that sells the book that can help provide money to pay the people who help me with things instead of just like making content because I love making content. That's what I used to do was like use it as a distraction from work. And as soon as it becomes work, then it's like, oh well now it's not as fun 'cause I feel like I have to do it. - Now what do you think people misunderstand about the part of ADHD? - Whew, I really think that the emotional dysregulation component gets overlooked so much. And like that's what I kind of did with the anti-planar, which is breaking it up into different, you know, emotional roadblocks because procrastination is an emotional thing. It's not a character defect thing. Like a lot of people think it's just, oh, you're just lazy and you just need to try harder. And the reality being, you know, there's all these negative emotions just like buried underneath of like I feel intimidated or I feel, you know, hopeless or I feel distracted. And they are not all just simply, I was like even like ADHD symptoms. People don't realize that like perfectionism is so typical and I think a lot of neurodivergent people because that fear, it's fueled by a fear of criticism. It's like anxiety and fear in a texito is what perfectionism, you know, can feel like. And the emotional dysregulation that comes with, I'm so distracted because my coworker made a comment and now I can't stop thinking about that comment and I can't focus on my work because I cannot stop thinking that everyone is talking about me and that rumination that comes along with it because of the emotional dysregulation, I think doesn't get quite as much spotlight as it probably could. - Now let's talk a little about your ADHD. When ADHD entered the picture, what changed internally? - So I would say that I, so I got, again, diagnosed freshman year of college and when I went in for depression to see someone about depression and the psychiatric nurse practitioner I had talked to her how fast I was talking and was like, "Hey, has anyone talked to you about ADHD?" And I remember at that time being like, "No, oh my God, I don't want to have that because I had this preconceived notion that like, everyone I knew how ADHD was like a hyper little boy who like didn't have friends," which was the very unfortunate stereotype that I had in my head and I remember not wanting that label and she handed me the checklist of all the stuff on it and I read the symptom list and went, "Oh no!" And she disclosed that she had ADHD and that she clocked me because she recognized herself in me and I had this sort of like, "aha, moment of like, okay, well, maybe it's not all just, it was like one thing and maybe I've been really, I mean, I'm like 19 and I don't know anything but maybe I have an answer and finding that answer that allows for that shame reduction. Again, where you can stop thinking of things as like a personal defect and start focusing on what the issue is objectively versus what the issue is as me and I am the issue all the time. Now, what did you finally forgive yourself for? - I would say expectations are such like expectations to find a magic tool that suddenly is going to make everything easy and need to be neurotypical. Right, like I was just searching for that silver bullet for so long and in doing so was setting myself up for failure after failure after failure after failure of hating myself when I couldn't stick to a system and I finally had to step back and go, I need to expect myself to stop doing things. What if I built that into the plan? Because if it happens, I'm not surprised and I'm not gonna feel angry and ashamed because I knew it was gonna happen and I was okay with knowing it was gonna happen when I started and like that was such a big game changer for me was like planning, okay, I know pattern recognition again that like that I've seen how this movie ends and instead of being angry at myself, like I used to be being able to think, I am grateful that that worked as long as it did or I am grateful that I stuck with that for as long as I did and maybe I'll come back to it and maybe I won't but I could have, I could have quit sooner. Now what practical difference did that make in your day to day life? - Well, it ended up turning into the anti-planar which was pretty much a, well, what if instead of one system you have a hundred systems and being able to have that flexibility I think was the main thing was that giving myself permission to pivot because pivoting was part of the plan meant that I could lean into that novelty factor. I could lean into needing to do different things and with the notable, I will say caveat of my tendency to, oh, I'm gonna figure out a new way to do things and I'm gonna spend all my time making that system instead of doing the things that I need to do to put inside that stuff. But, you know, over complicating things is my favorite form of avoidance. - Now a lot of listeners struggle with the devicue of this function, starting finishing, organizing all of it. How did you learn to work with your brain instead of constantly fighting it? - I think that the making things entertain, so there are different kind of ways that, again, in the book that I sort of leaned into into the, like, how do I get over this particular roadblock of disorganization and stuff like that. And finding ways to make it fun and make it easy, make it social, make it visual, and a lot of those things that came from ADHD coaching, I didn't know about ADHD coaching, and then once I kind of started, and the main thing that we started with is, okay, well, what's hard is let's pick one thing, why is it hard? What is making it hard? Because that is the thing that we're going up against. And then what do we do about that? And that kind of mindset shift from, you know, oh my God, I can't do it, I can't do it, I can't do it into problem solving mode, and that confidence that comes from knowing that I am capable of working to solve my own problems, and that it is nobody else's job to fix my problems for me. That part's hard. I still struggle with that sometimes where it's like, well, I can't do this because this as a person isn't doing this, it's like, but I could do this to fix it. But I don't want to, 'cause then I'd have to do more stuff, you know? Now, you've created the anti-planar. I'm curious, what was broken about traditional productive, productivity systems for you? I find that writing stuff down is one thing, and sometimes writing stuff down is enough to like, get me to do it if it's not, sometimes if it's not going to take very long. There's plenty of things that don't take very long, and I still don't want to do. But most productivity things do not focus on troubleshooting the roadblocks of having a hard time doing the thing you wrote down. If I write in a planner, that's all well and good, but if what's happening is every day, I'm flipping it over to a new page, and I'm rewriting the same stuff that I didn't do the day before, all I'm going to feel is shame. And so a lot of these systems set people up for those recurring shame cycles of, you know, at that end with, I'm a failure, I shouldn't even try. And that's defeatist attitude that I quit everything I start, that nothing actually really helps me, that nothing fits, that nothing was really the motivation for like, what can I make that would actually help me? And so I had initially started as making like an ADHD planner, but then I realized I was using all these, inventing all these weird strategies to get myself to work on that, and kind of looked at the pile and went, well, this is what I'm actually doing. I'm actually doing this. So maybe this is the answer and realizing how much fun it is and how empowering it is to ask yourself, what would get me to do this instead of, I have to do this. It's like, what could I do? Because then I'm going to feel accomplished when it happens. (laughs) - I mean, what most of the things I do, people don't realize about those of us who have ADHD is we don't like structure. It's Jessica said, we are structure haters. -Structure, barely know her. Sorry. -I mean, I remember watching one of her videos about using planners and teaching there. I use this one and then I just put it away and then I forget all about it. I use this one. This is nice. And then days later, she forgets all about it. Yours is very unstructured but it's got, it's segmented in ways that people need help because there are so many different problems that we deal with on the day-to-day. People don't realize ADHD isn't just about being forgetful. No, there's so much mortgages on that we deal with internally. -And that feeling of not knowing what's wrong, I think is a big thing for people. I think it's called Alex Thymia. It's like where you have a difficult time identifying your own emotions. But I've been in therapy for a while. I've gotten good at that. That is a skill that I have honed. But I know that if you can't figure out what it is that's wrong, you can't figure out how to solve it. And so the way that I kind of think about the anti-planar so much of the time is people say the word, "Oh, it's a toolbox." But what does that actually mean? A toolbox is actually just full of solutions for how to fix specific problems. And when you look at things like, "Okay, you've got, if you've got a screw that you need to go into the wall, you could hit it with a hammer. You're not going to have a good time and you might like break something." But if that's the same kind of thing of like if you are intimidated by something, writing an online to-do list is not going to solve that problem for you. Or if you're intimidated by it, like this isn't going to help. But like if you can find the right tool, if you can find the, and even with screws, there's like different kinds of screwdriver's. And if you learn to identify what it is that the resistance that you're facing, then you can pick the right tool. And so that's really what I wanted to do was rather than just throwing a bunch of strategies at people and saying like, "Okay, I have fun. Here's over a hundred things to, you know, activities and challenges and stuff to try. Now you're going to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out what to do to figure, to help yourself do the thing you need to do. And I've just given you a new way to procrastinate, rather than having people figure out that like the first step really is to identify what's making it challenging. And once you can figure out again, like that resistance. So if you are struggling with, you know, like lack of motivation, that is not the only reason why people put stuff off. But it is a reason. And that is like having a dead battery, right? And if you have a dead battery, you need jumper cables. You don't need a hammer. And so being able to figure out how do I reinvigorate this? How do I like, you know, how do I get myself to spark back up again? Is what the challenge is. So it's really funny because when I think about what all of these sections kind of do look like if I were to turn them into analogies for specific like, residual resistances that actual tools are for. You find that the tools and the resistances are like the same. Which is really interesting. I'm big on metaphors. So it's been interesting to kind of stumble into this stuff, like an emergent framework to to know that I did not set out with the idea of like, I want to make a feelings framework for executive dysfunction. And instead, when I need to figure out a way to sort these so people can find what they need. And then realizing, Oh, what people need is to understand themselves better before they can even get started on the thing. I mean, what I mean, what I think what a lot of people don't realize is when we stare at a list and we see that same list without anything crossed off the next day, it feels like a defeat. Yes. And that just chisels that weigh at us. And by doing what you're doing with the anti planners, it makes it easier. So you don't have lists, but you have probably ways to do it to make it fun and more inventive than just staring at a list and say, I got to get this done. And some of the stuff, some of the stuff is lit our lists, but they're sneaky lists that either like don't look like lists or they're like at much more helpful form of a list. And so like the in the insecure section, there's like a to dollist, right, which is not a, which is something that I started doing. And then I found out like is an actual like thing. I think in the ADHD coaching community, like some of this stuff is stuff I'm like, I kind of stumbled into and then found out that other people have been doing it for a while. But I write down only the stuff I did that day and then I cross it off immediately. So I get to feel good about as soon as I finish something I get to write it down and cross it off. I don't have a list that has anything unchecked. There's only things that I did that day. And I include everything, you know, it's like I made lunch at home instead of going out. I took a shower. I fed the cats. I texted my mom happy birthday and giving yourself credit for those like little victories is something that can help. But that's technically a list or like in the perfectionistic section. There's one called like how to half-ass it and you take a project and break it down into its sub-tasks, but then you sort those into must, you know, must-haves and nice-to-haves. You do all the must-haves and things that like without this, it can't be considered complete. And if you have time, you go to the nice-to-haves. That's still a to-do list. But it's a much more helpful to do list and it's extremely helpful if you are feeling perfectionistic and that is what, you know, the kind of strategy is. Now, was creating the anti-plander about helping others or finally giving yourself permission to work differently? Both. It started as the first. Well, again, it started as I want to make something that worked for me because I had just started working for myself. I was making ADHD comics and I was doing a lot of this stuff to try to figure out some sort of structure for myself that worked for me because I didn't have a boss anymore. And it's very difficult to be your own boss when you have ADHD because there's all deadlines are made up deadlines for the most part, you know, unless it's like some government thing you have to do or something like legal thing. It's for the most part, I could just keep putting things off and off and off. But that hurts me in the long term. And so I started things as like I did like a lot of theme weeks where I had I have a lot of money stuff I have to do and I'd make like finance week and I draw this really detailed, cool illustration called finance week and I put 10 check boxes next to it. And I was like, I'm going to do 10 things related to finance this week. I don't care if those things are as small as I checked my Wells Fargo app and looked at my bank account balance, which is as harder for me than it should be. You know, all the way to, you know, I did, you know, say my taxes, like things, but I'm going to do 10 things. And then the next week I might do like, you know, TikTok week and the next week I might do. And then after a few weeks it stopped working and that's okay because I've moved on to something else. And so it definitely started as a me thing and then transitioned into realizing, well, if it works for me, it's, it's kind of work for other people. No, for someone listening who feels like planners never work for them. What's one thing they should stop trying to force? Using a planner. I really think that if planners, if planners don't work for you, but you like buying planners and you, and you have the money to do so and you are not going to be angry and form like a bunch of negative self beliefs about yourself. By all means knock yourself out. The anti planner actually I've heard helps people use their planners. They write their stuff down in their planner and then they use it to help them get the things done. So they're not reusing the things over and over again. But it's, it's one of the things where I think I would say if it's a tool that you find helpful, like use it until it no longer serves you. And then when it no longer serves you let it go and find, you know, and find your own, find your own thing. And if if it's buying a new planner because a new planner will give you brain chemicals because it's a new thing and you'll use that one for three months and then after three months you need to get a new planner. It's like if you've got the money, do what works for you. Now for someone listening who feels stuck, maybe overwhelmed, maybe disorganized, maybe just tired of trying systems that don't work. Is there one exercise from the anti planner that feels like a gentle entry point for them? My, I was just talking to somebody about this. My favorite thing and it's very easy and it costs like next to no money. So I've always loved Conbonboards where you've got, you know, to do in progress, on hold or like waiting and done. But and using Post-it notes because it's very gratifying to move physical things around and I can't lose it under, you know, it's not a planner that I closed and I put underneath a notebook and now I don't see it. It's not a digital thing that I minimized or I closed out of it. Now I don't see it. It is, it is right there. But even in doing so Conbonboards, oh it's over on the side. I don't look over there enough and I don't see it. What I have found the most helpful is I'll take Post-it notes and I will write with Sharpie, you know, a task and the bottom of my computer monitor is to do. So that's where all of the Post-it notes of things I need to do go. And there's only so many spots because the computer monitors are only so big. And when I start them, I move them from the bottom of my computer monitor over to the right. So the right side of my computer monitor is the in progress or the in progress items. And then if something goes to waiting, like I emailed somebody and I'm waiting to hear back, but this project isn't finished, but I can't do anything more on it. I move it over to the left side of my computer monitor. So that's the on hold and waiting. And then when something gets done, I put it up on the top, flip it over and stick it to the top. So that's all my done items. And so that's a con bond board, but it isn't a place that I will always see it because it is in the direction that I am always facing. So I cannot forget about it. And it costs posted notes, you know, which are which are very, very accessible to people. But even that, right, I don't use it forever. I might use it for one project. I might use it for a couple weeks. And then it slowly fades out into the background. As soon as it stops working, I take all the posted notes down. I don't leave little shame reminders. Take them down, find something else. And then who knows how long, you know, maybe it's another month, maybe I've got a new project. I whip it out and I start, I start doing it again. And so that's definitely I think a easy enough entry points, which is pretty much right your tasks on post it notes. And if you've got a computer monitor that you work at, it's helpful. If you don't have a computer monitor, a wall works fine or something like that. But that's that's really my biggest thing is like make it visual and make it very difficult to ignore. And emotionally, what does that exercise give them is a clarity, release or permission. I think the so the clarity comes from being able to see what the tasks, you know, are so that you don't forget them. So that they stay top of mind. I think the permission part comes from the secondary like effect of when something stops working. Don't try to force it to work anymore. Let it go. And if it comes back, let it come back. That is an act of self forgiveness and again, of expecting something to to not work forever. So I think that that's that's kind of the permission aspect of it. And when you compare both before and after understanding your brain, what feels most different about how you see yourself. Before and after what specifically. Before and after ADHD when you're preparing your brain. I think I didn't used to see any of the strengths that came with it. You know, we talked about this briefly where it's challenging. And I don't see it as like a superpower. I know there are people who that's how they view their own ADHD. And if that's how you view your ADHD, I am super happy for you. That's but that's for a lot of people, it does not feel like that. I was only able to really see a lot of the struggles. But even then I didn't see this when I first got diagnosed, I didn't see the struggles. I just saw the end result, which was getting in trouble. And I just knew taking meds makes me not get in trouble. Which was it was less of the what are the specific behaviors that are happening. And so I think that understanding my ADHD better made me so much better at developing coping mechanisms, so much so that I made a toolbox of coping mechanisms. But coping looks like it starts with awareness. And so I've got a I've got a tick talk about this that I made a long time ago about. I was trying to make a tick talk about coping skills. And in the middle of my video about coping skills, I accidentally used a coping skill because I am in the room with my cats have like a water fountain. And it makes a little bit of noise. And I was filming it filming the tick talk. And then I noticed the little bit of noise happening. And I was like, Oh, I don't want that in the tick talk. So I paused the video or stopped recording unplugged it. But I knew in that moment, I've done this before. When I unplug this, I forget to plug it back in. And then I don't remember until my cats start meowing at me. And I realized that they don't have water. Right. So I took a post post I love I love I love post it. I took a post note and wrote cat water and I put it on my red ball. So that when I was done recording, I would see it and be like, Oh, okay, like I'll do this. And that started with the knowledge of I have seen this movie before. I know how this ends. As soon as I want to go do it, I had that awareness factor of I can predict the outcome that is most likely to occur with me because I've been in this situation before. And so if you can then mitigate that with a what would make me remember to plug it in. I need something visual. I need it on a place that I'm going to definitely see again soon and put that there. You know, that's that is all a coping mechanism is is the awareness and then the solve for that. So I think that prior to an ADHD diagnosis, I like did not think about the awareness factor and how much help that was going to be able to provide. Now when did you feel less alone in all this? Oh, that just come a cave video for sure. Just because how to ADHD you to like was such a revelation is is what it is right. I just sat and binge and cried and I saw the comments in the community. And so the online ADHD community that then started to build after you know other content creators. And again, this is it's not there was a community before before I got here for sure. But but being able to see this online community of people who felt so misunderstood coming together because even if you don't know anybody in your town, even if none of your friends or you know none of your family. If if you feel isolated alone, there are now online spaces of people who understand. And when we post about our struggles, we post about things that are not highlight reals like everybody else is posting about highlight reals. And I'm like, oh my god, I have so many moldy coffee cups. And people like, oh me too. And it feels so good to not feel alone. And I think that that's the has reduced the shame about ADHD so much that so many people talk about ADHD now. And not just ADHD, not just so many people talk about being neurodivergent now. They people have it in their bios that did not used to be a thing. This is now a thing that people are able to to feel like part of their identity because it explains their world, how they experience the world. And that's such a huge portion of who it is. It's not like, oh, this is a medical condition. This defines like everything about how I act and think and behave and to finally have answers and to find a community of people who just get it was such a big deal for me. Now there's some now someone listening right now who feels broken. What would you want them to hear right now? Oh, broken. You are not broken. It's so easy to hear people say stuff and it's so hard to internalize things. You know, I can sit here and I can say, you know, like you are not broken, you are not lazy. And I mean it from the bottom of my heart. But I know how difficult it is and how much work it takes to believe it. And you believe it by tiny little acts that you do for yourself to build trust in yourself again. And you do it with tiny little acts of noticing when other people are treating you in ways that make you feel broken. That that is like not okay. That that you don't deserve to be treated like that for not living up to their expectations. And then slowly get to realize that I am not broken. Other people are just really rude. You know, or like I am not broken. Other people or other people are not asking for what they need and are keeping it to themselves. Like other people do stuff wrong also. And that doesn't mean they're broken. It just means that like they are not communicating things and that is not always on you. So that kind of twofold of building trust back with yourself through small acts of noticing when you do do the things you say you're going to do. Or you do you think to yourself, I need to shower and you get up and you go, shout, you're like, look, I did it. Right. That is that is that doesn't feel like a lot. But if you're I've been on the ground, I've been, you know, where the bar is on the ground. Then it feels easier to, you know, to get past and the realization of being able to notice, especially like ableism. I did not, I was not able to clock that for a very long time. And now, especially online, I mean, some people, there are some people who maybe go like a little far. But I would say that like ultimately people's tolerance for putting up with being mistreated because of things that they're not doing on purpose. Like the tolerance for that has gone way down, I think. So if you're feeling broken, consider what might be making you feel that way. So that awareness, Danny's answer to everything is awareness. Now, what are you still discovering about yourself? So many things I'm not good at. Like I, I, you know, I wasn't like the gifted kid, I'm using like gifted kid program. And that made me feel like that during this very like for the formative years of my life of the expectation of like don't waste your potential. And you are. are destined for great, like feeling that I sort of got that put those expectations on me along with my experiences of when I do stuff that I'm interested in, I'm often good at it pretty quickly. And so I got used to that kind of feeling now that I'm shifting into a phase of my life where I'm doing a lot of things I don't know how to do or that I don't want to do or I don't want to have to learn how to do. And I'm not good at it. And therefore I've lost a lot of my confidence and operating from a place of insecurity makes everything harder and worse. And so sort of trying to figure out and navigate, how do I build that confidence back at things that I'm not good at? How do I take an interest in improving stuff that isn't my area of interest is gonna be big. And finally, where can people reach find out more about you and reach you online? - So my website with my ADHD Comics is ADHDDD.com. It's ADHD with DD, which are my initials after it. Antiplanner.com is where you can see the book and there's a bunch of digital PDF bundles that are on sale right now. And then I am at Danny Donovan on like all of the platforms. So that's D-A-N-I-D-O-N-O-V-A-N. And yeah, I'm really, really excited that we got to have this conversation 'cause this was, it was just fun. You ask a lot of questions that I have not been asked before on podcasts and I've been on, I've been on some podcasts, so this was great. - And then it's finally wanna say that was Danny Donovan on Read Myles. Stay curious, stay fearless, and remember, wherever you are tonight, you're never alone. I'll see you in the next time. Thank you, Danny. - Thank you. (upbeat music) ♪ I've used to hide my voice away ♪ ♪ So the long lost everyday ♪ ♪ Stories trapped inside my mind ♪ ♪ No one listening, truth confined ♪ ♪ I've walked through doubts, I've faced the fear ♪ ♪ Found the courage to make it clear ♪ ♪ Now I'm here with my hand ♪ ♪ Inside the studio, take a stand ♪ ♪ I hear the voices rise and glow ♪ ♪ Every story we all know ♪ ♪ Be yourself and let it show ♪ ♪ Inside the studio, watch us grow ♪ ♪ For some reason it feels so right ♪ ♪ Sharing truth in the morning light ♪ ♪ No one's needed nothing to hide ♪ ♪ We stand together side by side ♪ ♪ Guess I'll ride from far and near ♪ ♪ Sharing wisdom we hold dear ♪ ♪ The last of tears, the highs, the lows ♪ ♪ Every tale, a seed that grows ♪ ♪ We talk our life, we talk it all ♪ ♪ Celebrates each rise and fall ♪ ♪ Neurodivergent brave and true ♪ ♪ Inside the studio, voices new ♪ ♪ I hear the voices rise and glow ♪ ♪ Every story we all know ♪ ♪ Be yourself and let it show ♪ ♪ Inside the studio, watch us grow ♪ ♪ For some reason it feels so right ♪ ♪ Sharing truth in the morning light ♪ ♪ No one's needed nothing to hide ♪ ♪ We stand together side by side ♪ ♪ Oh, oh, inside this place ♪ ♪ Oh, oh, every heart finds space ♪ ♪ Oh, oh, come and see ♪ ♪ Inside the studio, you're free ♪ ♪ ♪ For some reason it feels so right ♪ ♪ Sharing truth in the morning light ♪ ♪ No one's needed nothing to hide ♪ ♪ We stand together side by side ♪ ♪ For some reason it feels so right ♪ ♪ Sharing truth in the morning light ♪ ♪ The last and tears, the highs, the lows ♪ ♪ Every tear, the seed that grows ♪