Dani Donovan: How to get stuff done when you don’t feel like it

Pierustin pyöräilyvää teitä valmistavan ornotin vuonna 2013. Mielestäni parasta Shopify saan se, että voimme harjoittaa liiketoimintaa ilman teknistä osaamista. Voimme hallinoida yrityksen taustajaristeelle mien ja front-endia sekä myydän verkossa, vaivatta. Jos Shopify olisi pyöräilyvaruste, sollisimielestäni itse polkupyörä. Sillä asiat hoidetaan ja meidän liiketoiminta me hoituu Shopify'sssä. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu, Shopify piste komsi vustolla. Sitten se, että se on tullut kokeilu, ja se on tullut kokeilu, että se on tullut kokeilu, mutta se on tullut kokeilu. Se on tullut kokeilu, mutta se on tullut kokeilu, mutta se on tullut kokeilu. Se on tullut kokeilu, mutta se on tullut kokeilu. Sitten on tullut kokeilu, mutta se on tullut kokeilu. Aloitetaan, että on tullut kokeilu, mutta se on tullut kokeilu. podcast. I'm your host, Katy Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD - at the age of 45, and it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life - school, jobs, my relationships, all of it - with this new lens and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience, - and now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood - they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are - and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Women in ADHD Podcast. Before we get started, I have some exciting life updates that I wanted to share. First of all, after four years of classes and papers and presentations - and a year-long internship, I have officially earned my Master of Science in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. It has been an incredible journey, and I am deeply grateful for this opportunity - to continue learning about the intersection of mental health, neurodiversity - and the lived experience of so many women in this community. So the next step is going to be to pursue my licensure in New York State - and I am very excited to see where this next chapter leads. So stay tuned. One benefit of finishing grad school and the internship is that I now have a little more room in my schedule. So for the first time in quite a while, I have a limited number of coaching spots available for women navigating ADHD, overwhelm, executive functioning challenges, life transitions, or simply just trying to understand your brain with more compassion. If you have been thinking about ADHD coaching, head to womenandadhd.com/cady to book a free 15-minute consultation. And once these openings are filled, I will likely be returning to a waitlist. And finally, some very exciting podcast news. The Women in ADHD podcast will be moving to a more frequent schedule. New episodes will now be airing on the first and third Monday of every month. That means more conversations, more stories, more practical strategies, and more opportunities to hear from people who understand what it's like to navigate life with a neurodivergent brain. I've already recorded some incredible upcoming interviews, and I cannot wait to share them with you. So stay tuned. In the meantime, here we are at episode 210, in which I interviewed Danny Donovan. Danny is an ADHD content creator, a speaker, and the celebrated author of the anti-planter how to get shit done when you don't feel like it. Danny became an overnight sensation when a flow chart she drew for her co-workers, mapping out her winding ADHD storytelling style, went viral on Twitter. Since then, she has built a massive community by bringing radical vulnerability, humor, and data visualization to the neurodivergent experience. Danny has spoken at major companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Adobe, and she is also the founder of the Anti-Boring Project. In this episode, we dive deep into the specific trauma of being told you are too smart to have ADHD. Danny shares her story of growing up with teachers who dismissed her mother's ADHD inquiries because she was getting good grades, and I share my own history of co-founding the gifted underachievers club and the gifted to ADHD diagnosis pipeline. We also explore the magic behind visual storytelling for ADHD brains, why traditional productivity systems seem to fail us, and how the anti-planter organizes strategies by your current emotional resistance, such as being stuck, overwhelmed, or unmotivated, and make sure to listen to the end because Danny shares some exclusive details about an exciting interactive digital tool she is secretly prototyping. All right, here is my interview with Danny Donovan. Danny Donovan, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to chat. I am way more excited because I feel like when I was diagnosed in 2020, you were one of the major celebrities in the ADHD scene on Twitter, may it rest in peace. So this is like a dream come true to be able to interview you. So thank you and congrats on just this life you have built for yourself. So incredible. It's really wild because I did not plan any of it. My first talk that I give, I have like five or six different talks now that I do, because I really do like public speaking. And the first one is called the Art of Self Disclosure, how I accidentally became an ADHD influence overnight. And because it was like truly an accident, which is pretty wild. But now it's my whole, like I couldn't have planned this, but I love it so much. Well, and it is kind of an interesting sphere of influence too because like a lot of ADHD influencers, like a lot of it is about relatability, a lot of it is about vulnerability, and a lot of it is being completely open about like the shit in your closet, right? Like moldy coffee cups. Right. And so there is like I feel like it's very healing in a lot of ways like to target that shame and to just like put it on his end and say like, you know what, I refuse. I think that a lot of, well, there's kind of two things that I noticed, which was that like it was so cathartic for me to just be open about the stuff that I felt ashamed about and and to have because of how I presented it because I was put, you know, especially putting it in like a humorous light that people were able to see themselves in it and go like, oh my god, I like there was this trend on TikTok where people were like things in my eco friendly home that just makes sense. And then they like had all this like eco friendly stuff that they bought on Amazon right and everything's got like the glitter filter on it. And I did one that was like had the super sweet sea boys that I was like things in my ADHD home that just don't make sense. Like part one is like abandoned beverage containers. And then I just went all over my house and my doom piles. It was just showing all of my random cups that were like on the ground and like on every surface. And people I remember people being like, this is the first time I feel like my house has had like representation because we got so much highlight reels everything is everybody trying to show the best sides of them. And so for people to kind of show up and be real, especially at the time this was pretty new. Yeah, yeah. So now you were diagnosed in college, right? Yes, freshman year college. Should I gotten caught in grade school? My mom asked my grade school, but asked my third grade and fifth grade teacher if they thought I could have ADHD. First off, I did not find out about this until like well into my ADHD career. Like this was a couple years ago, my mom mentioned this to me. And she she I think was a shame that she talked to my teachers about it instead of a doctor. But she figured that teachers would like know what teachers would possibly have outdated views as to how ADHD works. And one said she can't have ADHD. She's too smart. And the other one said, well, she's doing good in school. So end of conversation. And it was pretty much I think there's so many, especially women with ADHD where it's like, it's really funny that if you aren't failing or disrupting others to the point that you're getting in trouble, which I was disrupting others and getting in trouble. But if you're not getting bad grades, then then the ADHD diagnosis, I think like doesn't happen for so many people. Or the flip side, like I was the kid who was getting in trouble and wasn't doing very well in school, but I was in the gifted program. So it was this like couple of friends and I we created the gifted under achievers club, which was like kids who were gifted. And we're waiting to be kicked out of the gifted program for some reason weren't. But we also got D's all the time. And so it was like this constant back and forth of like you should be doing right. You have so much potential. You should be doing your you're such a failure for getting your D's. And yet also like what do we do with this kid? And I think this flip side was like it's no coincidence that we were all girls because I think like there was this general sense back then that like if a boy was struggling, he had ADHD. Let's get him help if a girl was struggling or if a girl, you know, you get sense of the principles on and say with kids of color too, right. Like we see this all the time. If they're being disruptive, if they're bored, if they're, you know, not doing as you know if they have so much potential as we say, they're like you got to figure your shit out. You got or you're going to the principal's office, right. I had actually a question that I posted yesterday online that was like what was the most unfair thing you got in trouble for as a kid. And so it was really fun saying the responses, but I've got a story that you don't tell lots of people, but I gotten I got the merits a lot for talking back to teachers talk on quote talking back, which was the like not raising my hand enough also like questioning authority at a very young age and like not assuming that people were right just because they were older than me. And I got I got a centumerate for well actually a print like a priest during religion class. And my mom like found out everything she was like you were right though. I'm like I know - No! - I don't write. I know, that's one of my favorite stories. I got sent to the principal's office because I was sent out to the hallway for being disruptive and talking. So my teacher first sent me to the hallway. So then I was missing whatever was going on. So, there was already like that. - Why is she getting D's? - Right, exactly. And I decided to count the dots in the ceiling, dropped ceiling tiles. - I do that stuff all the time. - So my plan was, I'm out here, I'm bored. I'm gonna count the tiles. I'm gonna count how many dots are in each tile. And then I'm gonna try to decide how many, you know, figure out mathematically, how many tiles are in the entire hallway of the school. And so I'm doing this very important job. And the teacher sends a kid out to say like, you know, Katie, you can come back in the classroom. You're allowed to come back now. And I was like, I'm not ready to come back into the classroom. I'm doing this really important mathematical job. And then I got in trouble. I got sent to the principal. So now I look back, right? - I relate to this so much. But you were saying that I was like, yes. And I stopped, I go, I'm realizing this is maybe not a thing everyone does. Like I had, especially, I get, like, I'm not really just anymore, but like at the time, you know, we got put in like church and stuff. And I had counted every light bulb and ever. Like I counted everything there was to count in that area. Because you're just sitting there and I'm like, all right. And so being able, being able to learn that, that like I have had zero original experiences, I guess is one of the things that I've really found out through sharing my ADHD experiences online is everybody was like, oh, you mean that like after you've cleaned your sheets, you don't sleep on a bear ass mattress for three days? Like, it's true. It's validating and weirdly humbling at the same time. So what did your mom see then when you were a child? Because there is that sense in a family, especially, where you're like, you were right. You should have, you know, questioned the authority. Like sometimes parents don't see a lot of these traits because they relate to them, right? Or they say like this is perfectly normal. So what was she seeing? - There was a lot of me getting in trouble for stuff that my mom agreed was not fair for me to have gotten in trouble for. Like after fifth grade at a certain point, she was like, do you want to go to public school? Like if you want to go to public school, you can go to public school. I was like, please. And so I fit, I had a better, I was a better experience there because there was not like the same level of, kind of not like authority that I was getting in trouble with all the time. But I heard from her, you know, like over and over again, that like the things, I felt very glad to have her in my corner because many of the things I was getting in trouble for were, was a silly or adults like, it felt like purposely misunderstanding me. But like in kindergarten, she told me that I asked, they had like a canine like police officer who came with their like German shopperage to class. And they said, does anyone have questions? And I said, why did dogs smell each other's butts? And everybody laughed and they got in trouble because they thought I was being inappropriate on purpose. And it's like, I want to know, I'm in kindergarten. I don't know the answer to this. I noticed this pattern of things that dogs do. You have a dog, you asked if there are questions. Maybe you know, and my mom was, I bet they didn't even know. She was like, I bet they didn't know. I bet that's why they didn't tell you. [LAUGHS] Well, that's amazing. You know, I feel like there's some forethought there in terms of, you know, she was a trailblazer, I guess, in terms of seeing some of these symptoms and recognizing them as narrative urgins. And I think she relates to them a lot now. And so like growing up, like I feel very, very grateful. My mom and I are very similar. And for a long time growing up, I hated being told that. Like being, and nobody likes being told, you're just like your mom. And I was like, ugh. And now I can kind of like step back and see so many of the traits that she has that I like maybe didn't understand at the time, especially a lot of like anxiety. But now I'm a step mom. And so I get it a lot more. And so being able to recognize how rare it was to have someone, I think, in those moments, is that that's going to be on their kid side, you know, going up against like a principal. Although I found out later in life, my dad went to school with that my like grade school, the place I kept getting in trouble all the time, went to school with the principal. And like him and his friends had like bullied like the principal. Like it was, it was a total freaky Friday situation where like the teacher, not only, but like someone in charge may have had like a grudge against me because of who my parents were. Oh dear. And so anyways, that goes back into the like unfairness. But I have found justice sensitivity is like a thing for a lot of neurodivergent people too. And like the sense of fairness that when it like does not show up for, you know, it doesn't have to be for kids, but like even in workplaces, workplaces also do not like people who ask too many questions, like, why are we doing it this dumb way? This doesn't make any sense. And they go, that's just the way things have always been done around here. I'm like, that's the worst reason ever. The worst reason you could give me. And it sounds like your mom, rather than I think the parental instinct is like, I want Danny to fit in. So why doesn't Danny change, right? Why don't you just change to be, you know, to fit in, to behave, to do whatever you're supposed to be doing. And it sounded like, you know, one of the great qualities in a parent I'm now realizing as a parent is to be like, no, no, no, you're fine. They're wrong. Like that that validation has to start at home, and to say like, of course you're going to question them. Makes total sense. That was like a really big deal for her, because my parents are still, you know, are still pretty religious. And like they went to Catholic school all the way through high school. And so to have your fifth grader who's like continuously like having a bad experience and to be like, I'm going to like give you the choice, whether you want to continue doing this or not. And I now, you know, going back, I'm like, that had to be really, you know, for something that was really important to her. And so I, anyways, I've never talked about this on a podcast. But so this is new, breaking news. But I think that it really does go to this like compassion of like, I want my child to thrive and not feel like they're doing something wrong all the time by being who they are. Right? Yeah, totally. And I mean, if you talk about it in terms of religion, like Jesus was a pretty badass rebel. So like, he was like, be chill and nice to people. I know, right? It's not coming out of nowhere. The main gist T.L.D.R. Don't be a dick. And don't just like follow rules blindly, too, right? Yes. Yeah. And honestly, if anyone-- I'm like, you're teaching me that I shouldn't be questioning authority. I'm sorry. But that seems like some-- so-- and that was the big thing for me that got-- and even now, you know, religion aside, there were just certain things that like, I have difficulty even within myself with things that feel hypocritical. Like, I will purposely like end up in situations where I am doing something that hurts me because I'm trying so hard to not be hypocritical. And so there were certain elements of that that I could kind of like finding in place. So I don't know if that's a thing or not. One of the other things that's been interesting for me with ADHD is finding out, like, which things are truly just me and which things can I vocalize? And like, 95% of people in my audience are like, yes. Oh, I know, right? Well, I always have the question of, like, is this ADHD or am I an angry feminist living in America right now? That's my big question. Fucking the Lotto's dose. OK, yeah, I want to get back to that because I have some thoughts about that. OK, so fast forward to college, your freshman in college. What were some of the signs that tipped you off? Or what led to you actually finally getting this official diagnosis? In eighth grade, when I moved to Phoenix, and in my freshman year of college, when I moved to Carney, both of those times, I had moved to a new school in a new city. And I lost my entire friend group. And I-- a friend group who had-- now, later in life, all I've gotten diagnosed with some sort of different-- different-- different. But they understood me. I had people who loved me who understood me. And then I had to start over with a bunch of, like, quote, "normal people." And it was-- and I love people. I love talking. But you can just see the look on their face when you're talking to them. And it's not, you know, and I'm like, oh, I'm too much. Or I'm self-conscious of this. It's like, awkward, or you're boring, or, you know, whatever it is. And I was having a hard time making friends. And so, both times, I were-- the two times of my life, I've been, like, severely depressed. And so I went in to talk to someone about depression, because freshman year of college, I was like, I have been to this deep, dark place. It is scary and bad. And I do not want to stay here for very long. So I did go in and talk to somebody. And she heard how fast I was talking, and how quickly I was switching between topics, and then apologizing over on top of myself, and starting over. And she goes, has anyone talk to you about ADHD? And I remember having this moment where I thought to myself, like, I don't want to have ADHD. I'm 19, right? I obviously have updated my beliefs, so to speak. But I don't want to have ADHD. Everyone I know who's got ADHD was like a boy with no friends. Like that boy with no friends was the mental model that I had assigned to those letters, Mitt. And I was like, I don't think that's it. And she handed me a sheet of paper with all the symptoms on it. And I remember being like, oh, no. And she goes, well, I've got ADHD. And my brain just exploded, right? Because I'm like, what? But you're like a cool, successful woman, though. And I really like expanded. I like to think I've always been as aware of things, but we evolve. And I remember having that moment of, wow, OK. So this-- This could be like a reason why this is all happening then. So I got meds which were like life changing, but for like a long time there, it was just meds. I wasn't doing therapy. I wasn't like learning anything about ADHD. And it wasn't until I stumbled across Jessica McCabe's How to ADHD YouTube channel and watching stuff about like, oh my god, there's a reason why doing laundry is hard. There's a reason why hygiene is hard. There's a reason why getting the maintenance on my car done is hard. I had only seen ADHD through the lens of like work and school. And so that was the first time that it really clicked for me. Then it's like, this is how I experienced the world. And so there sort of was like this diagnosis part that I stumbled into and then the like second phase of like recognizing that it touched everything. You know, it wasn't just something to fix. Yeah, right? Well, and I think even whenever I talk to women who were diagnosed long before, you know, either in childhood or in college or early, you know, more than 10 years ago, I feel like there is this sort of the second wave of understanding of ADHD that came about with social media. And my diagnosis was a pandemic diagnosis. And I think a lot of women, you know, after 2020, the diagnosis skyrocketed and our understanding and just sharing and interest. But again, I also kind of feel like maybe that's just my point of view because I came onto the scene and then all of a sudden made it my entire existence and was like obsessed and rabbit holding all over the place. Which has nothing to do with ADHD clearly. But guess what? Never. But so it's always fascinating to me to hear these like moments of recognition where it was like, yeah, I was diagnosed and I was given medication and sent on my way and then sort of thought it was this dirty secret or, you know, something that was sort of part of me, but not really, but not really understanding how it affected my life. And then something changed. One of my talks that I give is it's called ADHD storytelling and bridging the gap between clinical knowledge and lived experience. And I talk in there about, you know, my diagnosis story, but that she clocked me from my communication style because ADHD can clock other ADHDers pretty well, you know, not within a hundred percent accuracy. But if I'm able to follow you, it's like I can follow no problem, right? I can notice parts of myself that others might find unusual, but for her to notice because of how I speak, you know, we should explore ADHD was a huge and it's hilarious because my first comic that went viral, like my first comic I posted that I almost didn't post because I didn't, I hadn't told my boss I had ADHD. But first when I posted was about storytelling was about how I tell stories, how other people have like the start of story, end of story, and then just a blast past all of these like unimportant details. And for me, it's like every detail is important. I can't, I can't not believe no stone unturned on the way to the point. And, you know, and then apologize afterwards. And so so many people felt seen to have their experience diagrammed like something that was invisible, like made, visible and communicated. And that was so fun. But it's just wild that it was like my storytelling was what got me diagnosed and my storytelling was kind of a kicked off my career. Yeah. Oh, that is really cool. Yeah, I've talked to other ADHD illustrators too about like what it is about the visual meme that seems to be so central to the way we communicate and understand our experiences. And yeah, absolutely like there is something just very poignant about these like moments in time that explain so much all at once. Well, my, my degrees in visual communication and design. And I remember when I started the program, I was like, why didn't they just call it graphic design? Like everyone else. Why do I have to say this big long thing? And then people look at me weird. And then I have to say graphic design. They go, oh, and I never really understood why I, you know, we were the CD majors. And now I realize it's like they taught us how to think through like metaphor, right? Like how to communicate ideas visually in a way that goes beyond advertising, marketing, graphic design. It is really a like medium through which to communicate. And so being able to my favorite thing is just to be able to take ideas and you know, visually communicate them, but being able to do that in like a self reflective way, being able to go from this period of my life where people were giving me shit all the time for like, oh my god, Danny, you are so annoying. Don't you talk about anything other than yourself to like somehow turn making a career out of talking about myself. I don't know. I don't know man. It's funny. Oh my god. I'm so excited to, I'm going to make my daughter listen to this conversation because she's a freshman at Pratt and she's there for illustration. And she always jokes about the fact that the program is called communications design. And she's like, how am I ever going to tell people that that's what I do. Nobody's going to have any idea what that is. Yes. And later in life, I, I mean, I should probably hit it my college professors and be like, you know what? I'm so glad that you put that the curriculum was put together in such a way that like we didn't even get to touch computers until like my second semester my sophomore year. They're pretty much like, if you can't cut it up to this point, he won't like this program. And so I'm realizing now and one of my favorite illustrations that I did is a comic that I called like fitting in. And it was part of like this ADHD illustrators and comic artists like years and years ago did this little challenge where we had like a red envelope. It was like our prompt. And what are we going to do with that? And I had this little triangle character who went up to these orange, there are a bunch of orange circles and I'm going to do my best to describe this. A bunch of orange circles standing around and triangle goes up to talk to them and they are like, oh my god, what a loser. So annoying. And the triangle tries to then go and like, soft its edges like loud and you know, big and like and hyper and and soft edges and come back and still doesn't still doesn't fit in. And then as like crying and yeah, you know, square comes up that's got band aids all over the sides of it and it gives it a band aid, you know, from it's a little red envelope and then they meet up with these other shapes that also have band aids of people who have in the past tried to clearly saw off pieces of themselves to fit in and found can be and then they have this like, yeah, I'm getting goosebumps. I cry. I like cried making it. But it was this thing that's like you can find your people, but it's not just that you found your people. It's that you found your people and they've got the same scars as you. Yeah. Is that you found your people and that they have had to learn to love the parts of themselves that they told were unmovable that they were told were unlovable. And so being able to then connect with a community and I had I think, oh my god, so annoying was like the only text on that whole comic. And I got to have the fun feeling afterwards of the visual communication of like, this is a Pixar movie. I made a Pixar movie comic with no text, you know. Totally. Or it feels like a Leo Leoni type like children's book, you know, like little blue and little yellow guy. Yeah. It feels sort of like that. I don't I feel like he doesn't have any words. Maybe I don't think it maybe he has some. I don't know. Anyway, but yeah, what a beautiful image of, you know, not only finding your people, but also finding community in a lot of this stuff that's made us feel so isolated for so long. Like shared trauma. We have those they shared trauma. Like little tea trauma or big tree trauma, whatever it is. But like if you grew up with people calling you annoying all the time. Of course, you've got hang ups. Like, of course, we've got rejection sensitivity when we are used to feeling ostracized. And so we're like extra sensitive to to those types of behaviors from other people. And I don't know, you know, what your experience has been. But like when it took me so long to realize that being in the workplace, how sensitive I was to other people whispering about me because I was I thought was worried. Maybe they're talking about me. And I'm like, no, they're probably not. And then I heard them. And one time they were. And I every time after that, you know, I'm coming into work late, even though I know I stay late. My boss is cool. I have like a different slightly different schedule, but they don't. And I don't have to justify to them. But I can hear them whispering. And it's like worrying that people are talking about me. And making fun of me or talking shit. Like was such a difficult thing. And in the workplace, especially with like, this is again, this is completely just my experience. But like, after like other women in the workplace, I never really felt like any of my male co-workers were like talking shit about me for like coming in at 915 instead of at 830, you know. But who knows? Maybe they just weren't if they were, they were much quieter about it. But and so now I've one of my other talks that I do is about ADHD in the workplace. And a lot of it is about how many of us feel bullied because we're we're easy targets. I think for a lot of people to to point at, especially in on teams and stuff like that. So anyway, I've got 50 TED talks. So we're going to shop in. And in the next few days, shop-fapists from KOM will come. And yeah, it's fine. When I think back on my own childhood, I'm a little grateful for the fact that I felt like I was very clueless a lot of the time too, a lot of that stuff socially. Like as a mom, I see my kids, both of my kids are neurodivergent, both of my kids are diagnosed with ADHD. And like, I've seen them be rejected over and over again in social situations, you know, having a birthday party and inviting students. of their closest friends and then not one of those friends has a birthday party. Also, you know, like those kind of situations. And so feeling that second hand rejection for my kids and wanting them to fit in and all of that. But like looking back at my own life and realizing very similar things happened to me as a child. But like, I don't know if I just didn't care or I didn't notice or I let it wash over me. Like I just sort of was like, I'm just a loner. And so there's part of me as a parent now that feels like maybe they'll be okay. Yeah, that it's like it's not always like there is the rejection sensitivity part. But I also think that like, I think focusing on like what are your priorities? Like, for instance, like you don't need a lot of friends. You need one friend, right? And that was always the mentality I took with my kids was not like your popular. If you have a ton of people who come to your house or anything like that, it's like find that one person who gets you. I'm excited for the youths for the people who get to grow up in a world where people are afraid to say that they have ADHD where they know other people who have ADHD because this was the thing that it was just like quiet. Nobody talked about. When I left my last job, I was a graphic designer at Gallup. And like, you know, they didn't now I give talks at employee resource group like neurodiversity ERGs. And I'm like neurodivergence was not a word anyone was using in 2018. You know, really like this was not a widespread like I have ADHD in my Instagram bio, you know, type of thing. And I realized as I was making content, but both through. So I like on Twitter. And then I had started taking off on my TikTok and finding this community of people where people could stop feeling ashamed because now more people were talking about it. And when more people were talking about it and not being ashamed than that gave people I think permission for them to not feel as ashamed because it's like, well, look at all these other people talking about it. And we found community right where they did not feel like there used to be like an ADHD community before. But now it's sort of people are like, well, people are making diagnosis their identities. And I go, it's a complete the perspective, the lens that we have on everything. There is not a single thing that happens to me that does not get through the lens and experience of my own ADHD. And so for us to now not feel alone when that is how so many generations before were having to deal with this. They even knew what it was in the first place. And so like moving moving forward, I think that we've only got hopefully good things. Yeah, good things to come. Yeah, right. Or I think in the past maybe we were all just like a goth was our identity or yeah, like there were other things that were clues that the sides were there all along in terms of like what your neurodivergence showed up as. Go check out all the theater kids. Yeah, exactly right. The gifted under achievers, the gifted kid to ADHD pipeline is pretty straight and narrow. So what led you to post that first viral storytelling image? So I had started it gallop and I was co-working with some of my co-working with some of my co-workers. And we had been yes, as one does. And we had been joking about how I tell stories. And I said the conductor for my train of thoughts name is Donnie Danovan. And Danny Donovan. And that he loves taking people on detours because like if he gets you to your destination too fast, then you're going to be gone. And it's like I want to show you everything on the way there. And so the the train goes, but the train goes off the rails a lot. And I had the idea that like can I map what this like looks like. And so I drew you know pre-story prologue and like thing I just remembered five minutes or thing I just remembered happened or like some are related side tangents. And and mapped it out. I sent it to my co-worker and she was like oh my god, this is so you. And I remember me like oh my god, I know I made it. And I didn't put a watermark on it even though I thought about putting a watermark on it because I thought to myself how how big headed am I to think that someone would steal my artwork, which is so silly now and hindsight. But I wasn't going to post it on Instagram because my boss followed me there and I hadn't told him I ate ADHD. And she goes, well, post it on Twitter. You've got like 600 followers like who cares now it's going to see it. And so I posted it and then Aaron Brooke, who has a pretty big ADHD audience like retweeted it. And it just completely took off. And from there, you know, had that immediate reaction of how many people felt seen and how many people were like crying seeing their experience map like that. And so then I got to pretty much turn it into this big like almost public art therapy exhibit of like here are all of my different my experiences. And some of them are comics, but so many of them are infographics. And I do think that was partially because I was working at Gallup. And so I was doing Database all day. But because they are like universally readable, like if you it doesn't matter where you live, you can probably read a pie chart. You know, you can read a bar chart. You can read a flow chart. And so that's one of the reasons what my comics have actually been translated into like 17 different languages, which is pretty cool, including like Arabic, which they have to like some of these they have to like flip them backwards to be able to make them read. But the experience of of interacting with it of going through these flow charts and infographics like being able to be understandable across cultures across languages. Because again, it's really easy to feel like, Oh, we need to talk about ADHD more. I'm like, can you imagine living in some, you know, some other countries and having people not even think ADHD is real. So it's been pretty well. Yeah. And not only that, but then like to tap into these universal experiences internationally, I think is so powerful to realize, yeah, like you said, like the rates of ADHD diagnoses are so much higher in certain countries, not because necessarily because we all live here. It's like, it's all about like what is recognized and what is considered, you know, a trait as opposed to flaw, right? And how many people I hear from from like all like it's all over the world, but also like age spectrums like I've had people, I had someone who was I think 84 who was like, I know that to some extent, it's like, what's the point? Like I got the email and she was like, I did see stuff that I related and I thought to myself, like, what's is there a point? Is there a point to getting diagnosed this late? And she was like, I just want to know, like I just want to know if there's a whole reason. And then she emailed back or had emailed me and said that she did get diagnosed and that she was so glad that I was doing the kind of work that I did. So that little girl's like her didn't have to grow up wondering what was wrong with them. I'm gonna cry. I know that is so sweet. But for a lot of people to find out that like, you know, or there's people who are like, I'm 42. It's too late for me. I'm like, how old do you think you are? Like, you got a lot of live and left to do, man. But so many people, it's like the people have developed so many coping skills because they've been just like white knuckling it through life up to this point, like trying to hold on, trying not to get fired, trying to keep their families, you know, a flow and trying, trying, trying, trying. And they don't realize that like, it's not supposed to be this hard. Like just because you're doing it doesn't mean that you're having the same experience as somebody else. And so for people who might talk to my, you know, parents about this, that like, it's just because you can't see how heavy anybody else's backpack is. And your backpack being heavier than others, just because you can carry it doesn't mean that it's the same way as other people's. It just means that you had to build a lot more muscle. You had to get stronger. Like, you had to become stronger in order to deal with what you were given. Oh, I like that image. Yeah, right. And I think also like, well, I think you're treading water so much often before diagnosis that off like we don't really have a lot of time to stop and think about how much we are struggling or even what that struggle looks like, you know, and and so I think a lot of the time a diagnosis can help just take that lay of the land and be like, Oh my goodness, this isn't how it's supposed to be, right? Or this isn't like, there is another way. And I think that's why at any age, you know, it always and it breaks my heart too when women say that they went to their doctor and their doctor was like, yeah, no, that can't be it. Or even, you know, I would always say like, if you are afraid that you are going to fool the doctor somehow or that the test is going to be wrong, I'm like, that's usually a good sign you're on the right track. Yes. Or if you've been procrastinating, making the appointment, there's all of these little like unofficial things that's like, if you're worried that they're going to tell you that you're just lazy, you know, and and so many other kind of things that people who are so worried that they're like, what if I go in and it turns out, I am just lazy. And it's like, even if you don't get an ADHD diagnosis, a, you could, there are professionals who, you might have ADHD and they just don't know enough about it or the way that you're presenting, like, didn't line up with how they were going to do it. And that's like you said, like, it sucks if there are people who go in to talk to someone, they finally get themselves over that hurdle. And that person isn't like the most qualified to be able to tell. And you change the entire course of that person's life, like whether or not they believe you, they get another appointment or they go the rest of their life thinking they don't have it. And they don't, you know, maybe don't get that help. And so the difference that it can make besides just getting meds like that, there's a lot of people I think who think, oh, if I get an ADHD diagnosis, it means I have to, you know, have to start meds and it's like, those meds are amazing for some people like they I cannot function without, but like other, I know a lot of people who can and who just but having the closure of there is a reason, there is a reason why this, why I feel this way, there was a reason why I'm struggling with this stuff. And I think for me and a lot of other people, and during the pandemic, which is you said you got diagnosed in 2020. So many of us lost our entire structure that that that helped hell our days together because now I'm at home. And so suddenly, I think that that was a huge reason for things just bottoming out, or it's like, oh, I have to get stuff at home and no one's, I don't have someone who's going to walk past my desk and know if I've got, you know, social media over on the side. I don't have that same level of accountability of like, necessarily showing up at the right time. Like, there's certain things that like working from home is amazing, but the leniency aspect of some of the things can make it more challenging to do when you are used to having external accountability. Oh, yeah, 100% totally. Yeah, that was my experience. I was and I was talking to my therapist about how like my kids are home. They're asking me to feed them. And I'm like, I just fed you and they're always running out of the room and they're just like, oh my god, I can't get on zoom. And oh my god, the Wi-Fi's out. And like, they were just interrupting me all the time. And I was complaining about the fact that I couldn't focus. And also, I was trying to start a brand new business because you know, that's what we did in 2020. And so now looking back, I'm like, oh yeah. But I have said before on this podcast, like when she suggested ADHD, I immediately was insulted. I was sort of like, really? You think I'm a hot mess? I'm so well put together. And I mean, I was a hot man, you know, but there was this feeling of like, I had somehow betrayed this version of myself that I was showing everybody and then she saw through it in a way. And she was my freaking therapist. Of course, she's going to see through it. That's her job. But like, at the time, I just remember this panic of like, oh god, is am I not coping as much as I thought, right? To my therapist. Oh my god. Well, and there's such a, I think that that's one of the things that I've loved so much about where things have gone as far as again, like ADHD social media just like hits different because it's the part that's not just it's like, oh my god, it's so relatable so I don't feel alone, which is great. But it's like, I have permission to be myself. And I think so many of us felt this like resistance to let our, you know, say freak flag fly, but to be able to know it's okay that I'm not put together. Like I'm doing my, we're all just out here doing our best. And ADHD or not, that's true. And I'm thinking that there are a lot of people out there who, like me, I was good in school. And I for the most part was like, great at my job because I've known I wanted to be a graphic designer since I found out what graphic design wasn't like seventh grade. And I just like picked it like mine, which completely unlike me in pretty much any aspect. But I knew I wanted to do art my whole life. I found out what design was. I was like, wait, there are people who get paid to make the billboards for the zoo, you know, and, and there are people who get to like design this logo that's on my, you know, pop cam like that. It was just wild. And I picked that and sort of like ran with it. But because I loved it, I loved it in school. And I loved it for work. It was really easy for me to focus when I love something. When I don't love something like chores or when I don't love something, like doing my taxes, then it's like, it is completely like pulling teeth, arguing and bargaining with like the six year old who lives in my brain. So that's why one of the reasons I had paid the anti-plan, I was pretty much to stop the internal bargaining quite as much. So basically like what I feel like there's this intersection of like the ADHD space, the, you know, disability space and being a woman where things are said to you where they would never be said to a man in terms of like justifying why you're charging some anything, right? I feel like I see this in like the therapy space too. Like it's unethical for a therapist to want to charge more than a dollar to be somebody's therapist. Like they don't, nobody ever thinks about all of the expertise. And just you're right to an income. There's something in this space that feels like people have the right to demand that you justify any, any price that you're putting on something. Yeah, I think that there's definitely that like, I'll say tendency and you can't, as they say, for sure, but there is like a level of criticism, that I think that we do face, especially, and this isn't just about like having, you know, having a product. There's so much that comes with like the types of content that we're making and, and feeling like a quote unquote, like a bad woman for struggling with things that are like domestic, like tasks, right? Like, oh, I'm, I have a hard time with cleaning. I have a hard time with hygiene. I have a hard time with this and this and this and their things that like as a woman that I'm expected to be like good at those things and so being able to like criticize a woman for having a, you know, messy a video about her messy house in a way that like they might not do the same exact way if it was, you know, if it was a guy like having this idea of I want to charge my worth because I know how much time like I've had so many people who are like, you could have charged so much more money for this. Yeah, you should, you are under, you are undercharging, but it, but it's one where like I feel this deep need to like apologize that I have been trained into. They're like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Am I being too much? Am I being too big? Am I, I should shrink myself and make myself more palatable? And I think that there's, and then having to like stand your ground and be like, no, no, no. Hi, deserve to be here. I deserve to make money. And there's like, well, the idea, there's like this TikTok sound from forever ago. I just love, there's just like this girl goes, how I just thought to myself, how hard can it be? Boys do it. Oh, yeah. And I think through myself that I think that all, you know, so frequently. And so being able to kind of separate that. And one other thing I wanted to mention was that I think there's a reason beyond just the fact that so many of us really diagnose, but that so much of what has created community in the ADHD sphere has been women. Women talking about their experiences, women talking about their feelings, women talking about, you know, getting diagnosed, women being open and honest and vulnerable. When I think off the top of my head, especially early on, I've got a picture of actually at the back of the anti planner of the ADHD crew, who I kind of helped make this narrative or squad, but like especially at the beginning, it was a bunch of us like girls. And we were like, I have our little group text is called like ADHD girl gang. And you know, being able to connect with women so early on who are also running their own businesses who are also fighting the same massage and stick comments, you know, who are also fighting a lot of their own battles with feeling like not feminine for not living up to this society's expectation of what it means to be a woman. Totally. Right. And I think, you know, when I think that about the swell of diagnoses that happened post pandemic to like, I think of it like a movement of women similar to suffragettes or, you know, the me too movement where there was a swell of women who were like, I'm at my breaking point, I can't take this anymore. And on the one hand, it's been incredibly wonderful in terms of invalidating in terms of community. On the other hand, it's an individual diagnosis that makes it like continues to keep the focus on the individual problem, right, which is like, Oh, now I'm just now I've been diagnosed with a disorder. And while many of us, we don't look at it as a disorder necessarily, well, they're, you know, I could probably go on for hours about whether it is or isn't, but like certainly not a superpower. But I think that it's like rather than looking at, you know, it would have been nice if the next wave of this swell of women coming together and saying, I'm not going to take it anymore is like, let's look at the systemic issues that are causing so many of us to struggle to the point where we need an actual medical diagnosis. Right. And that maybe, you know, maybe it's not an individual problem it never was. But yeah, I do think that like in order for any kind of change to happen in medical change for women over the course of centuries now, it's been these like huge swells of women coming together in community and saying, like, you know, we're not going to take it anymore. I absolutely agree. And I, this is bringing up like a lot of emotions for me because I remember like when I first started out, and I'm like, I want to make, I mean, don't give me, I'm like, I want to make money. I want to make money because not just because it's like, I want to have a cool, you know, house and go on vacation. Like that stuff would be great. But like, I want to have the type of money where I can fund independent research. I want to fund studies that they should be doing that no one is doing. I want to be able to take a lot of the stuff that's been like under, yeah, again, under researched because it's about women's experiences and how women feel about things and communities of color and people who aren't getting that representation. We know that so much research is just done on like, especially like white boys with ADHD and don't, don't give me wrong. I love me. White boy, I got a white boy husband, a white boy step step. I love them very much. And they have ADHD and they deserve help also. Like, but it's one where, if you're not represented in research, then you're going to have doctors who continue to have outdated views. You know, you're going to have education systems that are teaching people that, you know, things that aren't there. And I said, aren't there, but might not be accurate. And so I'm really hoping that there's going to be an opportunity to invest in the research we want to see, you know, done in the world. And for more and more practitioners to be able to recognize what ADHD can look like from lived experience in ways that they might have otherwise automatically defaulted to like mood disorders or anxiety. Yes. Oh my god. Like, which I have those two, but just talking about the like, justice and fairness and be like, and what would you do with a million dollars? You're like, I would fund research. It's like the dirtiest was the word to say. But it's so true. And, you know, and I think that coming back to this idea of like cost and making money, I mean, you know, I feel confident that I put out a lot of free content and like, I want to make sure that I've if you meet people wherever they are. terms of price points and stuff. And what does Andrew Humberman calls it, like zero cost information? He has like the broliest term forward, and always makes me laugh. He's like, I want to ensure zero cost information. Like just say free stuff, dude. What are you talking about? Anyway, but like that kind of helps me feel like, I've covered my bases in terms of accessibility. And then I think about my business coach who would always say like, raise your rates. You owe it to all women to raise your rates. You're doing a disservice to other women if you undersell yourself and your value. And so her voice always echoes in my head when I'm like, I don't know, are people going to be mad at me if I charge this one or charge this one? So then I'm like, I owe it to all women everywhere. Yes, I have to set an example. My ADHD coach, Dusty Jibura, she was like, I had a gig that was an illustration gig. And I was like, this is a big thing. I've never worked. It was for book illustrations. Like, I don't fully know what to charge for this. And I'm like, I think I'm going to do this. And she goes, what's the scary number? Ask for the scary number. And I said it. I was like, okay, this is for this. And I like said what it was. And she was like, yeah, you should ask for that. And like, what's the worst they're going to say? No. And it's like if they say no, then you can like, walk it back from there. But I said it. And they said, yeah, if they say yes, instantly, it's usually an indication that you could have asked for more money. I know. I hate that. But it pretty much was like, don't ever put it in a situation where you say they accept your first offer. But thinking through it in the lens of like, I forget that other people just like have money. Like when you've come from a, from a, depending on the client, I get not everybody. But depending on who you're working with, especially if it's like what the business, this was for, I thought, I, this was for a farm at company. And I felt very, I had conflicting feelings about like, oh, I'm working with farm, but you know, this company that had an ADHD med coming out. And it was like, it's an ADHD like booklet for kids. On what ADHD can look like in young girls. And why it doesn't get, get picked up. It wasn't about meds. It was literally just about like, here's what ADHD looked like for me as like a little girl. And I go, I'll draw that. Like, I'll draw that. But being able to go in and like, ask for four things, especially when it's outside your wheelhouse, if anything you've charged for before can be, can be challenging. So it was the same thing with the anti-planner. Like, I don't know what to charge for this. I know how much money it costs to make. Kind of, hopefully nothing goes wrong. And as things have kind of scale, it's been, it's been wild. But I am all for people being able to kind of like step into their power and realize like, I have to do this because it will be meaningful for me. And I will be able to like help maybe a coach other, other women like when I worked in past workplaces, I really enjoyed. You know, I was like, you're not supposed to talk about your weight. And I was like, all everyone here should be making more money. Everybody, how much money are you making? How much money are you making? But like, they'd mentioned it. And I was like, I am making this. And you have been here longer than me. And you are just as talented as me. And so we had a big group of people who went and all asked for raises. And I was told that I wasn't, they're like, you're not supposed to, like, don't talk to your coworkers about your weight. I'm like, that's illegal. You like straight up can't tell me that. But okay. So we love women supporting women. Hey, friends. Before we get started, I wanted to tell you about something I've been using completely that has made such a meaningful difference in how I plan my days and follow through on my goals. It's called focus space. Focus space pairs a simple, intuitive goal setting app with a huge menu of community co-working sessions. They have over a hundred choose from every week. 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You can try it for free for 14 days and get 20% off of your subscription. When you use the code women ADHD. With that discount, it works out to be only about $2 a week, which is money well spent if you ask me. So if you're craving a little more structure in your day and a really warm and friendly space to get your work done, head to get.focust.space/womenadHD and grab your 20% discount today. Again, that's get.focust.space/womenadHD. And make sure to use the code women ADHD at checkout. You'll be glad you did. And hey, you'll probably see me in one of the sessions. Yeah, OK. So your illustrations and graphics are taking off. And you get to the point where you have enough support through Patreon that you can leave your full time job at Gallup, right? And so you become a full time influencer. I don't know if you like that term or hate that term. I actually don't. I said that in my-- that was in my talk name. I'm like influencing influencers or sort of like-- I get paid to like influence people into like buying other people's products versus like a creator, even like content creator, like Bo Burnham saying like content. And I'm like, but a ADHD creator, you know, a communicator is probably more accurate. All right. All right. OK. I like that. Sorry. Because I hate that term influencer too. And it always feels like there's some baggage there. But as soon as I said it during the other thing and then you said, I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have said that. But yeah, I pretty much-- like honestly, steer clear. And most of the people I know in the ADHD steer are not like what I would call ADHD influencers, either. Like all of them pretty much make original content. Well, and that's kind of some-- OK. I want to get to that too. But I've like tried to keep myself on some sort of straight and arrow here with your timeline. But like I have so many thoughts about this too in terms of the anti-planar. But so at this point, you are fully funded by content creation. What sparked the idea to create the anti-planar? So what was pretty funny was my last day at Gallup was February 28th, 2020. Oh, wow. OK. March 2020 was when I was like, I'm going to go out on my own. It's going to be great. And like two weeks later, the world was like, just kidding. And I was freaking out because I had just left my like very, very steady job with a team and a boss that I really liked. And I was making more money than I was making on Patreon. And so I was so freaked out. Like, what did I just do? What did I just do? But then I also knew I'm like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this. And maybe it's a good thing because I would have been too afraid to jump. I would have been too afraid to leave with the uncertainty. And so I just really kind of like leaned into it. I was making ADHD comics and TikToks. And I started working for myself and realized that everything that isn't fun is so hard. Like, it's so hard. And I now have to go and open a business bank account. And I have to go do all this like dumb stuff that I don't want to do. And I wasn't managing my time very well. And so I thought to myself, well, I'll make like an ADHD friendly planner. What does that look like? Oh, it'll be like kind of like a bullet journal kind of like a this, you know, and it'll have funny lettering. And so I was working on it. And in the meantime, my business coach had told me to keep like a field guide for my business essentially like documenting out like things that have realizations. I'm having things that I'm learning journaling kind of like activities. And I made a thing called my excuse list where I would write out like I had a little X and I would put I don't have the time and then the check mark, you know, next to it, I'd be like, I am choosing to not make time. And it would be like, I don't know how. It's like, I am a capable adult who knows how to Google things, you know, and like I would put pretty much all of the reasons why I wasn't working on my comics into this list. And then I started making like theme weeks where I said, okay, well, this is going to be finance week. And I make this cute, cute, like pretty illustrated header. And I was having to do 10 things this week related to finance. And after I do them, I will write them down and check them off because at the end of the day, like week, all I need are 10 things related to finance. And if one of those things is checked by Wells Fargo account, you know, and I can check it off. And so I started doing theme weeks and then I started doing all this stuff to like work on the planner. And then I realized over time, I kind of like looked at my field guide and I go, this has, I'm using this to get stuff done. I'm not using the planner like to get stuff done. I'm using this weird little like collection of strategies that I've like cobbled together to make myself work on the planner. This is the, this is the money right here. This is the goal. This is the thing that I need. So therefore, it's probably something other people need. And so I put the idea of making a planner that completely to the side and decided like, I want to make something that was like organically already starting to grow because I had, I had tutorials I had made on how I tricked my brain into doing things that had gone viral on TikTok. So I went through my TikTok and grabbed a bunch of those things of like, how have I been telling other people that I do this? And using those graphics, using those illustrations, really kind of leaning in hard to the idea that's like, I, rather than having one tool in my toolbox and hoping that everything requires a hammer, you know, how do I actually develop that toolbox? Because I think a lot of people say you need to develop a toolbox and you need to work with your brain and not against it. Like we, those are really great and they're very true, but they can also become things that I think we hear so frequently that we sort of like forget maybe what that means in practice. And what I realized through the book was, which is organized by a motion that's like making it difficult to get stuff done like oh maybe you're overwhelmed or maybe you're perfectionistic and realizing that those are mental resistances and that those resistances require different tools in the way that like a screwdriver that like the motion that you need and the tool that you need to get a screw into the wall is different than the motion and the tool that you need to get a nail into the wall and we're often trying to solve the same or different resistances with the same tool over and over again and so to have one thing it's like what if your system is that you've got 100 systems sorry that was like a billion year of answer but I do I am the ADHD story telling lady so I feel a little bit less bad about it. Well it doesn't come out of nowhere I mean I I think there is this like self-help culture that a lot of people with ADHD myself included before my diagnosis I would you know very much fell for the sales pitch of like I've got this thing that's going to solve all of your problems and it's only going to be revealed to you on the last page of this book so you know by this book and I read so many of them and what do you know they didn't solve all of my problems but I think that there is this notion right that like I'm going to find that one thing that is going to solve everything and we hold out for it and instead of looking at our weird coupled together system that we actually are working and looking at it and thinking or that is working for us to a degree and being like okay what is it about this system that is working for me and getting more curious about the fact that it's like maybe I already do have something in place even if it looks weird and that I'm not going to keep looking elsewhere for something that's going to save me. I think that so many of us in searching for that like silver bullet right then we do find things that work for us but they only work for like a period of time and then we drop them and then we forget about them and then they're just like dead forever and I think for the anti planner one of the things that I loved was being able to be like I can't forget about my techniques that work so when something stops working it's fine I can like leave it and maybe a year later I'll like bust it back out again and one of the best examples I have for this of one that I did not forget about and did use for years was I found out from my husband works in tech and so he had been kind of talking to me a little bit about like scrum and then he introduced me to the concept of a conbound board and having a column for like to do's in progress or I've got like posted notes and to do column in progress column on hold or like waiting and then done and you write all your you know posted notes and you move them from to do over so to in progress to you know done and a the physicality of it was great but we were getting married and so I did one I said well I'm gonna have picked that's a lean into gender stereotypes here but like I had pink post notes that were these are Danny tasks blue ones that were this are Josh tests and then like orange or green or something that was like this could be either of us or both of us and I would put little like codes at the you know little icons at the bottom for if things were like purchase you know this is I need to buy this I need to buy this and I would I move stuff around and I had it on a on the wall behind our couch and so I couldn't forget about it it was like I was unignorable I couldn't minimize it it wasn't something at list a digital to do list and I kept forgetting about it was right in front of my face I saw every time I walked in the house and that worked for our wedding and then I go I'm gonna use this for the rest of my life and then it you know fell apart and then I had a big project where I was working on the working from home animation with Jessica McCabe for the how to ADHD video and and I made a big conbound board for that project and then I like try to start using it again for my life and then it would slowly fall apart and then and I realized I'm like this is a system that works for me under certain conditions and I can't use it forever the place where I fail is where I am expecting myself to stay consistent with this forever whenever and ever even though I know that's not how I operate so with the anti planner my whole idea behind it was like what if I could give people permission to keep quitting things because you're not quitting things you're experimenting and you're seeing what works and what doesn't and what works under certain conditions and what doesn't and what you might be able to to mix together and combo into a new thing even though you've technically done a and b when you put them together and make it a b it hits different and so like getting that little hit of novelty getting that permission to be imperfect but but to look at things as experiments so that we can remove ourselves from that self-judgment I think that comes from whether or not things quote unquote work out versus you know it being data of like oh I tried this it didn't work was it do I do I how badly do I want this to work do I want to like analyze why you know oh it failed because of this like what are the failure points or what are the friction points I can remove that and try it again or I can ditch this and try something else and and teaching people how to like I was a experiment on themselves and and get better at noticing what is making this fail like where is the failure point in the system do I want to address that and like that really is so much fun my dad's engineer and so I get I get a lot of like excitement out of figuring out where are the friction points or wherever the failure points and then solving for those I love all of it and and just even to like this notion of separating the emotional experience and the emotional reaction to like the barrier right which is like yes this is what barrier am I experiencing right now what are my options and so like getting into that strategic mindset I think can be so helpful but also recognizing that like there's an emotional component of guilt or shame or whatever is holding me back right now so let's like deconstruct that and talk you know and realize that this is something that's going to happen and just be okay with it and so then like the next time I'm having a day where I'm lying on the couch I'm going to be like oh this is a day where I'm lying on the couch woohoo I'm probably going to be productive tomorrow as as opposed to in the past where I would have been like what's wrong with me I can't believe I can't get off the couch there's so much I need to do and blah blah blah and I ruined a perfectly good couch day I found out that so I wanted how did somebody I would okay a let me just say I am currently in couch mode and because I I did back to back like do not do this this is not me this is not a brag this is this is a that Danny that you shouldn't do this but it's been years since I did I did two like hundred hour weeks back to back recently because I was really excited I've been like playing around with like prototyping and app for the anti-planner but I got you know get really really into it really really excited and it's like I'm not tired I want to stay up all night and like work on this and then I've oh no now it's the next week and I can't open an email I can't get myself to answer one email when last week I was like like pedals of the metal because I burned through all of my fuel and now this week I want to like beat myself up because it's like I know I'm capable of that look at how I did look at why can't I be that just forever and the reality is somebody said like our 100% is other people's 300% and so like of course we can't be 100% all the time because it's actually asking us to be like 300% all the time and it kind of goes along with this thing I realized it was like I either get 30 minutes of worth of work done in eight hours or eight hours worth of work done in 30 minutes. Nice right yeah. Those are my only two options. Okay so here we so the anti-planner is like I would call it like a choose your own adventure right where so you decided like you know where what am I struggling with so you've got stuck overwhelmed unmotivated disorganized discouraged how did you come up with those five categories? So I I did not have like start out with an idea of what this book was going to be and I think that that's why it turned out like as cool as it did was because I didn't make make a plan in the way that I don't have five-year goals right like I did not set out with a plan and then I sat down and I implemented every part of the plan and then I made the plan work and I went woo I did the plan no I decided like I said it was going to make a planner kind of pivoted said I'm going to make a collection of activities and strategies in games brain dumped a bunch of ideas and then saw okay cool I've got over a hundred things here this is overwhelming this is going to be way too hard for anybody myself included like I'm making this for me if it doesn't work for me I don't know how I can expect this to work for someone else and I need to figure out how to navigate this so that when I need to get something done I don't procrastinate for two hours reading through the whole book and trying to find something that sounds fun I need to have my options limited I need to know what's going to be relevant like I don't want to waste time looking through stuff that's not going to help me how do I how do I collect this how do I how do I organize this user experience wise and so I brainstormed on note cards a bunch of different reasons why I don't do stuff even when I know I need to and so there were a bunch of emotions so I had you know I'm tired I'm bored I'm resentful that I even have to do this like I am feeling like not I'm caught you know insecure about it or I'm intimidated I'm perfectionistic and I had all of these different things like I think I had probably like 30-ish like 3035 different like emotions with little cartoon guys next to them and then I push started pushing stuff together I go what essentially means the same thing and so I sort of condensed it into okay these words that are here now none of these mean the same thing and then I looked at it I go cool well I've got 16 I've got 16 emotions here that's still too many tab I knew I wanted to do tabs because I'm a sucker for tabs and I'm like that 16 is still too many words to have someone flip through and try to figure out which of these 16 are you feeling and so I wonder if there's a way to like organize these to where I can reduce that friction even more and then realizing that actually many of these fell under sort of like umbrella traits for executive dysfunction so like stuck has difficulty getting started in decisive perfectionistic and distracted which are all essentially self-sabotaging behaviors and like inertia problem. and versus like overwhelm, which I think I've got like intimidated, I don't know why. I think I have this whole thing that I've intimidated, over committed, panicked and burnt out, but they're all capacity issues. That's like the demand is more than my capacity currently has it. I'm pouring water into a cup that's already full. And then we've got, motivated. And so I kind of did that same thing where I had essentially the feelings wheel of like, there's different types of angry. You know, there's like, oh, I feel betrayed or, oh, I feel disrespected or, you know, like those are technically different things. And so I sort of did that with executive dysfunction. I look back, I go, I made an emotions wheel for ADHD. And then I organized the activities based on what one of those things they helped with the most. But the issue I kept running into was, oh, well, this helps with one of the things is lacking accountability. And one of them is like a difficulty prioritizing this activity I'm working on fits in both. Initially, I was going to print it in both sections, but that felt kind of like janky. And so what I ended up doing was cross referencing it. So at the beginning of all the sections, it's here are the specific activities and games and strategies that go with this section. And then there's you might also like, and it points you at all of the different activities that are in other sections that also help with this problem. And so I'm essentially like algorithm recommending you, you know, things that sort of like translate between or like at the bottom, where says this pairs well with this. And somebody told me they go, how did you make a website into a book? Well, it's funny because there's no website. But I think from a user perspective that that's really how people are able to then navigate it where it's like, this is a troubleshooting guide. You come up and you say, I've got this thing I'm trying to work on. Why is it hard? Is it an I only have to pick between five. I have to pick, you know, stuck overwhelmed and unmotivated disorganized skirts. I say, I'm feeling unmotivated. Flip to that tab. And then you can read, you can read those like eye statements that are like, you know, I have a hard time doing this. If nobody's going to know, if I don't, you know, I have a, I don't feel like doing this, this, I hate doing this, this sucks. I and reading those eye statements and seeing if you relate versus just reading a word, there's like an image cartoon with all of them and then the eye statements. Because I have found through my comics that what people want to do is to recognize themselves. They don't, they can't often just like unless they had a lot of therapy also to be able to necessarily get in touch with those emotions. But if you read the thought process, you can go, oh, that's what I'm thinking. And that hopefully can help people. Well, and oftentimes when you're in a state of overwhelm or you're, you know, lack of motivation, like you're not always going to be in a place to, to know how you're feeling, right? And I think that that's something where it's like having this encyclopedia of options is so, okay, this is, this is my pet peeve about the anti planner. There's so much in this book. It's so beautiful. There are so many helpful tips and you so vastly over deliver. Yes. Some, you know, and then I go on to your TikTok and you're defending the price of this thing. Yet again, for some schmuck out there who has said like, I can't believe you're charging $50 for this. You hate poor people. Yeah. Right? It's so angry because I feel like this is such an invaluable resource and also would somebody say that to a man ever. No, they would be like, thanks, dude, you're my guru. So I'm like, is this a uniquely woman with ADHD experience of this notion that there are like people out there who just will always just be like, I want stuff for free. I don't know. I just feel like it is such an incredible piece of artwork that you should never have to spend a minute defending how much time, effort and expertise artistic and just lived experience and all of the expertise you've put into this, you should never have to spend a moment justifying it to anybody. I appreciate that. The way that I approached that comment, you know, I did have somebody who was like, you know, do you hate poor people? And I remember seeing that and like stung a little bit at first, but then I'm like, I know I don't. So this doesn't, you know, this is like if you're seven feet tall and someone calls you short, you know, you're not like, oh my god, my feelings are so hurt. It's like, this isn't true. What's the matter with you? But I saw that and I go, you're mad at whoever pay, like at your company that you work for, like whoever pays you does not pay you enough money. That is not me. That is like, that is a bigger problem than me. If you made more money, you would probably not be saying this, right? And that is not necessarily like your fault. That is just the situation that we're in that there. This is, it's $58 at full price. And because it took again, like I don't have to justify it. I want to like, it took like three thousand hours. But I took the opportunity to explain to that person in my best, you know, like level, tone of like, it's totally understandable to be confused about why this cost so much. I'm going to tell you why it costs so much. And then you know, went into the like, here's how long it took. But also people think I went through a publisher. There are a lot of people who don't know that I wrote design illustrated and self published and now run the company that that manages fulfillment and customer service and all of this stuff that comes along with like developing a product. And I am then got to talk about all of this stuff kind of on the back. And so people got to see the back end of what e-commerce actually costs. And they go, oh, I didn't think about the fact that you've got to pay someone to do your international sales taxes. You know, like that, that's got to be baked into the price. And that, but that informational thing went viral. Like it was my first viral tick talk about the anti planner. I sold a ton of books. And I reached out to that person and I said, hey, what's your address? I am going to send you. I will send you one. And you know, so people like, oh, you don't need to do that. I go, this person just made me so much money. But not just because of that. But like I do try to understand as a way people are coming from and that we are not well versed in why things that are made by creators cost as much as they do because people are so used to cheap stuff. People are used to Alibaba prices. People are used to Walmart prices. People are used to mass manufactured stuff. But then when they get it and they go, oh, this is such high quality. I go, yeah, because I'm tired of getting cheap shit. Like I'm tired of stuff that I don't use because I know that it doesn't feel great to like hold versus telling someone I got this with the thickest paper possible because there's nothing I hate worse than like, you know, my marker's bleeding through to another page. And so I really wanted to make sure it was like worth it for people. It would, and then people ripped it off and I go have a bunch of counterfeiters that, that, you know, scan the whole thing and it's got see through pages and typos all over the place, which is my nightmare. But then I made a video explaining that and that was viral too. So I really kind of leaned into, you know, bad things happening. If you can talk to people, honestly, about what's going on, you know, the internet's a supportive place. Well, and I, you know, I think it's sort of similar to this whole AI irritation too. So like I keep seeing these AI ads on my algorithm that are like, I was, I had to think I was going to pay hundreds of dollars for a photographer when I can just get AI to do my headshots for me. And I'm like, or you could fucking pay a photographer. Yeah. Like why is just this idea of paying people, you know, for their craft just seems to be something that I could probably go on and on about. But I have a whole, a whole thing about how so much of the reason why people are like, I'm doing this with AI because I can't afford this is because people don't have, we don't have enough money that we are working with to be able to feel like we can afford people services or that those people feel like they can't charge because people don't have enough money to do so. It goes back to the like, we don't have enough money to be paying each other. And that's a little bit by design. But that's my self-box. No, it's true. But you think about like, okay, how much money is that something like the anti-planter going to save me in terms of productivity, in terms of motivation? Like, you can't. How much coaching costs? Right. Like, it's just like, there's a way in which we aren't able to do that math a lot of the time in terms of like financial investments and return on investments. And I'm not a finance person either. So it's like, there are moments where I'm like, like I remember my husband, I would always joke about like, when apps used to be free and then they wanted to charge you like $10 for an app that you literally use every day of your life and being like, what do you want to charge me $10? Yes. And like, and then I go out and buy a $20 bottle of wine and like down it and, and 10 minutes. And so like, our sense of what worth is is often very, very skewed in our society. I have that exact same kind of thing with, yeah, with apps. And I think that people not always knowing how much, how much time and effort necessarily like went into things, especially if it's like with the, the anti planner, the illustrations took longer than writing the book. Like because the book is essentially laid out like a bunch of how to, it's like a productivity recipe book, right? There are like experiments where it's like, this is what you'll need. This is how it works. You know, these are tips and this is why it works. And they're all bulleted and kind of like both like I wanted them to be instantly skimmed while you can tell that your girl is like a Twitter and TikTok short form contact creator. Or I was like every activity is one page. Don't make people read more than they have to. But not necessarily knowing how much time goes into developing stuff that is short because writing short stuff takes a long time. The illustrations took a long time. But that developing the framework that is the entire scaffolding for the book, right? That navigation system that that took a long time too. And people might not even necessarily clock. That was a thing that was like invented feels like a weird word to use. I don't know what the right word developed, I guess. Yeah, right? But something that didn't exist before they might not think about the fact that like this system of explaining executive dysfunction literally did not exist before. Yeah, well, and not only that, but just like the ability to edit too. Like it's a lot easier to write massive paragraphs and go on and on and on with no editing. It's a lot harder to communicate an idea in brief succinct, meaningful ways. But I don't think that's something people think like how hard can it be that it's like drumming and comedy. Yeah, we want to respect the ADHD attention span because it's also my attention span. And so I think that my gauge for design for products for content is always like, would I read this? Would I watch that? Like I have a very, I have a very, very short attention span. And so everything kind of being on the like, would I read this? No, I get bored about here. And I'm like, why would I ever expect anybody to, you know, keep reading? Okay. If I got bored here by my own stuff, like I got to go back and redo it. And I think that that for especially new creators or business, a lot of like business owners, who I don't fully clock that like selling your own product and making your own product are like different skill sets. I happen to have both of them because I like my product is me in a book form. But talking to a lot of people that like that, describing to other people what it is you do and why they should care and and to keep their attention. I think is challenging, especially these days. But anyways, I'm just really happy that people are getting so much out of the book and that it, you know, when you said like the overachieving kind of part of it is so true because the over delivering, over delivering, sorry, because I was so perfectionistic about getting to make it my way. I had pre orders, so I didn't have to take out a loan to make it. And so that was really great to have that support. But now it's like, okay, well, what's next? And I go, well, there's I got a 4.9 star. My first product, no pressure. And it, but it's like the most pressure, everything I go, people know me for this. When I come out with next like everything feels like it's going to, you know, not be as cool or. And so it's a different success is great. But it's also got this other sort of lens that I didn't fully realize until I was in it. The perfectionism was already there, but now it's got double pressure. Do you go back and look at it and think like, oh, I messed some stuff or I would change this? Like, would you think about like having volumes coming out or additions like a textbook? I have actually with the funny thing is that I actually don't have anything I would change about this one because I went through it and said, what would I change? On I have four or five different versions that happened before anybody ever saw it. Where I developed it, posted, noted it up, made a bunch of edits, sent it, got it back, posted it up, you know, posted, noted it all up, made a bunch of edits, sent it out, got it all back. And so I did that process of what do I want to change? What do I want to change? And I was doing the thing I talked about earlier where I was working way too many hours, wasn't standing up, wasn't taking care of my body. And that was not great. But now I look at it and I can be proud of it. My next thing I'm working on developing new activities and actually a couple new sections that I realize we're kind of missing because there's, I use this book to help myself get stuff done almost every day, which is crazy. That it's been, you know, it's been out for four years, five years. Oh my god. And then I still use it as frequently as I do. But that there are things that weren't still weren't really getting taken care of. I'm like, why am I still struggling? And I realize one of them just time blindness and time management. And I go, I have difficulty prioritizing in here, but it's not specific enough that it is one particular thing and that particular thing is managing my own time. And so I've started developing activities specifically to help for that because this is a problem I'm currently having. And I go, well, if I'm having a problem, other people are probably having the same problem. Let me invent some new ways to figure out how to solve it and then feel like empowered doing that and knowing like, eventually, maybe this will be content. But revisiting that process of self experimentation for things that like aren't currently in the book. Awesome. Well, that sounds exciting. All right. Well, so no pressure, but what's next? Well, as I said, so I'm developing the content. I've got some content for anti-planner two activities, but I don't know how far how far down the line that's going to end up being. This is the first place that I have mentioned that I am prototyping in app right now. And so as I've been doing it, I've realized how many things are going to be game changing in ways that like a book product cannot give people. And so one of the ones I've got in the perfectionism section that like can't be in a book is first draft, worst draft. And it's essentially a text editor that you can, there are different settings, but the one that it comes with like defaults picked is you can't erase more than five words behind. So you have to keep going. It's like, this is my first draft of an email I need to write. And you keep writing and writing. If you try to backspace, it'll only let you backspace for five words to change typos, but other than that, you've got to keep going. And then it'll save it at the end. And so you have essentially like, there's one that you it won't let you backspace at all, but then you can't fix typos and it drives me crazy. But the one that's essentially soft locked to where you have it forces you to keep moving is like a perfectionism thing I continue to use now. And I go, this is great. This is a tool that I need. I can't wait to show this to people, but there's other kind of stuff like that that will be interactive in a different kind of way. Oh my goodness. That's so, I'm so excited by that. [laughs] Oh, that is so great. I can already feel like how helpful that would be. All right, well, that's super exciting. And I know we'll all be waiting for whatever amazing things comes from the world of Danny Donovan and Donnie Danovan. Yes. And I sent it out loud, so it's real now. Well, awesome. This has just been so great to hear about your journey. And to finally get to say thank you for putting this amazing stuff in the world. And thank you so much for joining me. There you have it. Thank you for listening. And I really hope you enjoyed this episode of The Women and ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to womenandadhd.com. If you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit womenandadhd.com/podcastguest and you can find that link in the episode show notes. Also, you know we ADHDers crave feedback. And I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple podcasts or Audible. And if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five-star rating. Or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency. And they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken, but she has ADHD. And she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage. Take care till then. [Music] to come to the next episode.