[Music] Thrusters check. Yeah. The thrusters are checked, Tommy. It's looking good from my side of the Lenny Mogame. Excellent. [Music] Probably gonna need some dangling carrots. Check. We've got plenty of dangling carrots on board, Tommy. We're looking like we're ready to go. It's 2019. It's gonna be a big one. Buckle up. [Music] And we're in flight mode. We are. That was a very, very smooth takeoff, Tommy. The first time launching Millennium Noggin for 2019. Yes, Rodin. So we have made reference to the Millennium Noggin in the past and we had some time off over Christmas and we spoke to the power as it be in the Eagle Waves radio studio and they coordinated a Millennium Noggin. We are now officially in hyperspace. We're in hyperspace. I think we're heading over the other side of the world. Yeah, hyperspace really we should be getting there quickly but it's a different hyperspace. It's gonna take a little while. We've got time to talk. Yeah, so we've got Dan Garner on the episode today so we'll be beaming him up from somewhere over Canada. I'd be leaving. Yeah, we'll hover. I think a Calgary, I think we'll sort of hover over there and teleport him up into the Millennium Noggin. We're starting to watch the shoes off. Leave those shoes off at the door when he comes in because we do have the Shagpile downstairs. Tommy, you can feel it now between the toes. All we're going through the toes. Just a light fall. Really good stuff. Rodin made it to very exciting 2019 that we've got coming up with under the bar podcast. So obviously Dan Garner we talked to today. He's going to be out in Australia February. So next month, will we spend in some time? Practically here. Yeah, spending some time with him in Sydney. Yes. On the, I think it's the 21st, 22nd, 23rd. Yeah, that could be the Friday Saturday. Friday Saturday Sunday? Sunday, yes, yes. So the Friday is the free business online sort of workshop to sort of giving back to the industry. He's got a bit to offer there. That would be absolutely awesome. That's free. And then the fat loss and the hypertrophy I think around the Saturday and Sunday full day seminars. Yeah, he's really gone bald sleep on this one, Tommy. Happy with those dates. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was the 23rd and 24th. I believe so. Okay, 22nd, 23rd, 24th. Yeah. And we've got Dan coming on today and he's talking about the concept of metabolic damage, reverse dieting, flexible dieting and a few other interesting things. So really looking forward to this interview. Yeah, I think he's going to, well, this is no, he just filters out the BS and just lays down the facts. Which is really, really good. So looking forward to that one. I was going to brag. Okay, then coming up in the first half of 2019. So my other guest we've got already in the can and ready to drip out. We've got a wonderful three part series with the muscle nerd Luke Lehman. Yeah, and this is long time coming, long time coming. It wasn't a fun habit. And we actually had him the pleasure of having him in the studio. And obviously anyone that's been to any of the muscle nerds, I had anything to do. We're back in the day with the Pollock and Group. We'll know how intense and animated and passionate Luke is. And it was it was quite a hive of energy in the Millennium noggin on that day. And it was, I think we ran some, we checked some ketones and some beta hydroxybutyrate in the blood. We checked blood sugar levels. Yours was a little bit high. It was a bit high. It was pretty good. Yeah, it was absolutely fascinating. And we learned so much. It was like I said, a long time coming. I think he was fueled by some effidrain. So he was a medallion, I think he particularly energised. Yeah, so we've got that fun. So with Luke Lehman coming up, we had also a three part series with Lucid Luke Tullik from Lucid Health Coaching. Now I believe a member of Flex success. Yes, yes, he's he's clever. I don't know if Flex obviously, our listeners would be aware of Flex and Dean and Lizzie Dalton and Alan. Yes, the team. Really good team. Yeah, they helped us integral player in the evil genius down on the tour and back in back way back in the day in 2018. And yeah, they did throw a lot dangle line out. So they're looking for a few new coaches to add to the team. Yeah, Luke, Luke's one of those and there's another one coming shortly. So yeah, absolutely awesome stuff there. But we had a lot of fun with Luke again in the studio. He's been on the show a few times before. So that's going to be absolutely awesome. We've got the continuation of the hypertrophy series with Dr. Jordan, shallow, the muscle doc. Yep, so we've got another few, another three more parts to come in that. It's big, which is big and very detailed. So that's exciting. We've got the world's foremost expert on gluten, Dr. Tom O'Brien. He'll be coming up on the show. And I think there was some, it wasn't, that's a really, really insightful interview we did there. And that's as fatal and final if you do have a bit of gluten, it was a slightly different spin on what we already know. And for me, it was quite reassuring to sort of comprehend to what level gluten can manifest as being problematic and how to work around it. But it was quite enlightening and not to be missed that one. So a slightly different perspective there from, and like you said, he knows his craft very well. Absolutely, absolutely. And then we've got some stuff with Brods coming up, which is exciting. So there's always a lot of fun with Brods. The evil genius, Brodric Chavez. He will be back on the program. And he's coming out to Australia in late March. Correct. And we're just currently in the moment. We're like, well, okay, look, if you're going to be out here anyway, we should probably collaborate and do some stuff. So that's in the pipeline as well. And he's out for the Arnold classic. So he's working with a, he's got a few, I think he's helping quite a few powlifters come into that one. So he is loosely associated with the power. But he has Andrew Hudson, IFBB Pro from South Africa, I think it is. And Hudson's one of the professional athletes is going to be competing on the pro stage. So he's here to support his, because Brods is actually coaching him. So it's super exciting there. And yeah, we're thinking of doing something in Sydney and Melbourne and potentially Richard Collins over everyone. How you going man? He's interested in a midweek flying potentially Brods and myself over that way. So from Perth and you're interested, make sure you message me Brods or Rich or even you or anyone. So let me know that that's something that you want to make happen. But that's in March. Okay, Sean Cooper, the brains behind Sabito supplements. He's back on board with the program this year in 2019. We've got a giveaway. We'll be running with him via our social media channels. He'll be giving away a packet of his outstanding amino supreme product. It's an essential amino electrolyte blend. It's probably one of the best, if not the best, intra workout formulas out on the market. One of, yeah, absolutely. It's fantastic. It's a nice, clean product and a lot of research went into that dotted eyes cross-tees. And he wanted to create something that was naturally sweetened and ticked as many boxes as he possibly could. He could make something a lot easier and a lot quicker. He already had some BCA formulas, but it had sucrose, I think, was out of official sweetness. He wanted to steer away from that and really have nothing in there that could be potentially not nasty, but potentially probably for some individuals over time, if you think in 30 years of using EA's every workout. Maybe we shouldn't have that official that volume of artificial sweetener. The subito range, WPI's, he's got the creatine, glutamine, some lifting apparel, wrist wraps, knee wraps, all that type of stuff. He's come on board. He's going to be the major sponsor of 2019, so that's really exciting, giving a. I think he agreed, I think we got it in running, but he's going to give away an amino pack every week. That's absolutely awesome for our listeners and guys that support the under the bar program. There'll be more information on that on the social media channels. That's pretty much everything, Rodin. If people want to get in contact with you, you're obviously still prepping your athletes via online means, but you are doing some stuff back on the floor as well. Mate, I am. I just did the Ravens off and I'm back on the gym floor, shaved down the pins. It's exciting. He puts some volume into the quads and calves, so they look respectable. The young bucks move out the way when I use one of the squat rack. In the gym floor at the lift for porn center, that's my home club at the moment, with Kato and the crew down there. Awesome guys. I am doing a few sessions of PT, so if you're interested, you can hit me up for that. Obviously, the physique preparation for professional photoshoots or competition, I'm still doing that online. There are no mental scotch sessions, they face-to-face mental sessions that they might be interested in. I can do that as well. Tell you all my secrets. Any of that type of stuff, hit me up on my Instagram, the DuBoi method, or Facebook or my page, Rodin DuBoi, can inbox me there or the DuBoi method at gmail.com.
myself, online coaching, there's a P-Tong mentoring course and all the information for all of that is at
[email protected] and just getting contact via that channel if you wish to. So that's pretty much all the iodine and tea crossing that needs to be done. Our resident wookie cam if you could hit us with some sort of sting and we'll move one step closer to Dan Garner. Excellent stuff. Ooh, just a little blip in the hyperspace there. I did blip. We came out of hypodrive there. Just for recovery. Now, before we get to Dan Garner, some sad news. We had a very significant death in the industry, obviously late last year, we've passed the New Charles Paukewin and another very sad one and all too soon. And I guess that we have had on the program Dr. John Chrysler. Yes. He was back on the show in episode number 40, which is probably a couple of years ago now. But unfortunately, died in his early 60s. Yeah, 61 I think. It was just early in January correct. Yeah, I mean, you know, hard issues there. I remember for any of our listeners that did listen to the episode with him, he quite comically reviewed his experience with having a heart attack. And got the ambulance and instructed the various paramedics to, you know, how to treat him while he was, I think he was, wasn't he initiating the beating of his heart, but sort of doing like that. He was humbling over on the floor, or something, to hum, pumping to a crazy experience there that he talked us through. But absolutely awesome. And he was doing amazing things with the testosterone, not replacement therapy, but testosterone therapy and really pioneering the use of other things like the Clomif and Citrate and the Anastrasal, these anti-estrogen and selective esten receptor modulators to try and treat testosterone deficiency for men without actually using testosterone injections or gels or implants. So he was really doing some amazing things and I gather he was treating from all around the world. He sadly missed him. But it looks like he had issues with his heart. It's worth going back to have a listen to that episode, but certainly if you were pursuing that line of treatment, it would be worth listening to that just to pick up some of the subtleties or to know that there are these other avenues of exploration in which you could discuss with your own practitioner to seek that treatment because he was all about finding that sweet spot in the balance. Yeah, good point you made there. That was one of the big things that took away from John Chrysler and reading other things that he posted on various forums. I followed him on social media platforms. Just the way he looked at estrogen management and like you said, that sweet spot of estrogen management, if it's a little bit too high, you don't get the benefit of the testosterone therapy, a little bit too low, don't get the benefit of the testosterone therapy. So it seemed to be really individual-specific. I think a lot don't realize that just that subtle management of estrogen can be a massive player in regards to how you actually feel on testosterone therapy. I think that's one of the big things that took away from him is rather than just dismissing estrogen as a UNI and what we man, we don't need estrogen. It was like actually, yeah, libido, hair skin, joints, nails, conversion of GH9-JF1, all these things, you know, cutting health. Cutting health absolutely. Require estrogen. Press too much, you know, you do feel pretty average even though it's not our dominant hormone. It's still a hormone that we do need in sufficient amount and that amount varies from person to person. So yeah, it is what it is and I'm sure he's remembered and for the amazing things he did in the industry and I'm sure he helped thousands and thousands of men actually live far healthier and happier lives with his help. So, okay. Well, very sad news. Time for Dan Garner. We'll look at it's very exciting to be here in the Eagle Waves Radio studio once again, Rodin. It is exciting. We've got, as Cam says, Dan Gardner. Yes. He's been out doing the garden. Everybody says you mean. Everybody throws a "D" in my name. Everybody. You're not a unique snowflake, Cam. You're the same, everyone else. But it sounds like Dan, there's not much gardening going on over there, but quite a lot of snowflakes. Oh, I'm scared. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, my one business partner was just ice skating in a parking lot on the way to work today. So it tells you what Canada is like right now and the stereotypes are true. We ice skate to work sometimes. That happens. I don't believe it. You serious? Yeah. That will happen today. My hockey training business partner pulled over and skated on the road. Originally, just for the Instagram, for the Instagram story. It ended up being doable, even got his hockey stick out and everything. Wow. That's pretty cool. That seems pretty cool to me. But from the outside, looking in, wow, you know, went to Wonderland. Imagine all that ice. How cool would that be? But you guys hate it. It's like, hey, I gotta drive slow. There's accidents everywhere. It's kind of move. It's freezing. It's horrible. I want to be in Australia where the sun's out. Yeah. We had different experiences. He got out and skated on the in a parking lot today for fun. But I actually drove to the gym and did leg day today. So when I got outside, it's like leg soreness and cramping plus ice equals Dan walking like a baby giraffe for like five minutes. Legs just shake in everywhere like a pool. So we had very different experiences this morning. Yeah, well, better you than me, man. Hey, if you come back to Lake Louise, well, uh, yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. I have been there. Yeah, before we went on air for our listeners, I was just talking about the fact that Dan likes to get away away from civilization and he'd actually seen picks of you going to Lake Louise. And I think it was long. It was a while ago. It told me it was 2002. I was there. And we did Lake Louise and obviously the skied the four. So stayed in Banff. Did Lake Louise sunshine? Norkey. So three. There's three mountains there, isn't there? So I snowboard there. I said for two weeks. It was awesome. Banff's beautiful as well. Yeah. One of the most beautiful places in the world, one of the most underrated places in the world. Not a lot of people talk about Banff, but when you're there, you always want to go back. It's beautiful. It's absolutely. And there's just the mountain range like everywhere you look. It's just these mountain peaks. It's crazy. So pretty. Yeah, for sure. Before we actually get into the content for today, Rudin, and we're going to chat about reverse dieting and calories in calories out. So it's like the starting talk as well. Yep. Just on the thing that we were on and I was talking about I've been away camping over the weekend and I had a lucky experience to be a million miles away from phone reception and anything else. And it's just a very unique turn of events which arose in just a lush green campsite where we could all just walk around barefoot. Dan actually, he's written a book on sleeping. Yeah. It's got all the bells and whistles at home. Everything you need to know about sleep. Absolutely everything. No stone left unturned. Just except one critical piece of simple evidence backed up by the research Dan. So can you just unpack that one for the listener and then we'll get stuck into some more detailed stuff. Yeah, of course. So if anybody wants to read an incomplete book on sleep science, you can check out Eat Sleep Burn by a man named Dan Garner. And what he failed to miss was one of the most simple things that you could ever slap yourself in the face with. And it was actually came across literature early this year and it demonstrated very clearly that every single test subject in this clinical trial was able to completely correct their circadian rhythm with only seven days of camping. And it makes perfect sense, right? We've got no cell phones. We've got no TVs. We've got all laptops. We have to wake up with the sun. We have to go to bed when it gets dark out. All of this makes sense. And I had a good laugh at myself. Because I'm always the guy who's about like root causes and keeping things simple and all that. And I've got a book full of references and sciences and all kinds of protocols. And then I didn't tell anybody just to leave the city. I told them to do all this other stuff. So it was it was a funny realization. Well, I mean, clearly that's a version 2.0. You can all knew and improved. Got everything you need to know and just put that study in. There you go. You get really good at it. So to meaning don't do anything that I just said and do something that's 100% for free, which is get the heck out of your city and go camping for seven days and just relax. And then I mean, interesting subjects. So the circadian rhythm that you're talking about there, that's your sleep, wake cycle and how your body clock, everything's set up to work optimally, yeah? Oh, yeah, for sure. When it comes to the circadian rhythm, I think that's an emerging area of research. So I think it's a little early to be making full meal plans and training programs and stuff based off of that. But it's a circadian rhythm regulates many pathways involved with hormonal balance, with temperature, with performance, with blood pressure. There's so many different things that circadian rhythms connected to. So it is vital that it stays in check. So it's vital that you go camping. Take a message. And what gets it out of whack, I mean, you mentioned no cell phones, no laptops, stuff like that, is it the fact that we're working, you know, into the hours or doing things that we work on.
and we should be sleeping that throws it all out. What's the catalyst to get it sideways like it? Yeah, here it is often for a lot of us these days. - Yeah, for sure. And that's a great question. There can be various catalysts when it comes to a disruption in one circadian rhythm. One of the main catalyst can simply be jet lag. So going from country to country, if you're doing seminars or if you have jet lag, but you're in one place because you're a shift worker, that can be something that really disrupts one circadian rhythm, which is essentially the balance between cortisol and melatonin throughout the day and when they should and when they shouldn't be peaking. So jet lag is definitely one catalyst that can cause one to be disrupted and therefore would warrant some protocols and some introspection as to what you should do moving forward. Another couple of things could be exposure to blue light at nighttime when you're looking at screens, you're looking at your cell phones, exposure to blue light, coming in your eyes can actually decrease your own body's melatonin production, which is important, melatonin's important for sleep length and sleep quality. So staying away from phones and TVs and stuff within two hours of bedtime or at least turn in an app on like f.lux or twilight. These two apps can be installed in computers. If you don't want those apps, you can wear some really dorky looking glasses that also block up blue light that you can use as well. And that's something that's important to point out. So I think another one's just general stress. A lot of people don't know that cortisol runs antagonistic with melatonin. So cortisol remains high, melatonin will be low. Just like if estrogens really high, you're gonna have lower levels of testosterone unless it's being pharmaceutical augmented. Now when it comes to your cortisol melatonin, that balance needs to be in a proper ratio. And if we are stressed out in the evenings, you're gonna be depleting the neurotransmitters and hormones that are responsible for a good night's sleep. So stress management is another big one. And I think finally what I would answer in this, you know, to make a short answer really long, I would say that a lot of people don't know that the bugs within your gut are actually nocturnal. So there are many bugs in terms of bacterial infections and parasitic infections that are actually nocturnal. And bugs, of course, are a stressor to our biology. So when bugs are nocturnal, these things can wake up and be more active, create colonies. We replicate more migrate to different areas of the body. For example, blastocystosomonas is a parasite that can actually migrate to the gallbladder and therefore disrupt fat metabolization. There's a lot of migration and funky things that can happen, but they're all under the umbrella of biology stressors. And when those bugs wake up, a biology stressor is gonna create a stressor response. So you can have a stressor response by increasing stress hormones, which in turn reduce your melatonin. And here you're trying to supplement with melatonin or even camping wouldn't solve it in this scenario because it would have been a parasitic infection. So there's a lot of different ways you can tackle the circadian rhythm function, but it is still very vital that one cares about that and makes sure that they get up at the same time every day and go to sleep at the same time every day. - It comes back to consistency as key. - Yeah. One final one there, Dan, what are your thoughts on the impact that the Wi-Fi has and just the amount of electromagnetic stuff going on in a busy city center or even just in your house? Does that have any significant impact? - Not that I'm aware of, to be honest, I've heard a lot of talk about it, but in the defense of those who have talked about it, I simply haven't put the time and dedicated research required in order to properly answer that question. So I think that experience would tell me that it doesn't matter 'cause I have clients who live in New York City and LA and they're fine and healthy and their lab work looks great. So I would say from my clients who live in cities that have over 10 million people and therefore probably 10 million Wi-Fi's 'cause everybody lives on it. I think that I've experienced with tell me it doesn't matter but I am gonna admit that I'm unfamiliar with the data on Wi-Fi. - Very good. - Very good so you can have a good circadian rhythm but be sterile potentially. (laughing) - Sleeping like a baby but can't make babies. - But it should be. - But it should be. - Well, if Instagram's worth it, then you might as well just keep the Wi-Fi, you're fine. - Yeah, I'm with you on that. - Well, that's a terminology that I hadn't heard today but you do it all for the grand. - Great. - I just assumed that that was for some sort of - Grand macoccal. - A grand macoccal. (laughing) - And then you're up, coming from, but you're gone. - Yeah. - And then you're up when Dan said that. - Yeah, but then again, I'm not on social media. - No. - What a Dan. - What were you doing camping then? You guys just go out and do a bunch of recreational drugs out there. - You too. - Is this like burning man or what? - Well look, a lot of emotional mushrooms. - A big mushroom. - Can we line if I said there wasn't some plant-based material that was used to, - You know some of that grass from underfoot? - Yeah, that's right. - Just put it in the packed it into the vaporizer. - Yeah. - Little Iowa trip going on here. - Silence. - Silence, yeah. - Radio silence. - Radio silence. (laughing) - All right. - Yeah, that's topic for another day maybe. - Yeah. - So Dan, look, reverse dieting is something that - Controversial. - It is quite controversial and Rod and I've had many discussions both on and off mic. Something that Rod and deals with his client telling particular on a regular basis. And I've heard very legitimate and good arguments from people I really respect saying that, no, just bring calorie straight back up to where they need to be because the body fat is going to come on anyway. And then I've heard, well, the body's in a state after an aggressive diet where it's just going to store more fat than a sensitive fat. - Yeah, then it would otherwise. So it makes sense to reverse diet them. So I think it would be nice to get your spin on this particular topic. - Yeah, this is definitely a controversial topic. There's a lot of people saying a lot of different things, which makes it like any other topic in nutrition actually. So maybe just nutrition is controversial. But when it comes to this kind of thing, I mean, the term most people coin is metabolic damage. And that's kind of why reverse dieting was ever born to begin with. And metabolic damage, when it's properly defined, I think that's one of the biggest problems to begin with. I think a lot of people say it, but when we don't have a working definition of it, then it's kind of hard to even have a conversation about. 'Cause metabolic damage, I mean, human metabolism is thousands and thousands and thousands of reactions happening every minute. So we have to make sure that we have a working definition here. So metabolic damage, when it's properly defined, this would suggest that you're suffering metabolic consequences even after you began refeeding. So for example, let's say that you ate at a certain level of body composition and you went into a deficit for an entire year. And you got extremely lean to enter a bodybuilding contest. And then afterwards, you're gonna revert back to your original body composition after the year diet that you went through to get ready for that show. But over time, the metabolic theory would suggest that even after you're back at your original body composition, that your energy expenditure, so your calories out per day, is gonna be lower than it was previously, even though you're at the same body composition, you're at before you even started the diet. And metabolic damage would also suggest that you're gonna have a propensity to gain body fat at a faster rate. So your body will have a hard time getting lean again for whatever reason is suggested. Now, when it comes to that working definition of us sustaining a consequence, even after we've reverted back to our original body composition, it's just something we haven't seen in the research. So I would love to provide some sort of a magical solution out there for people, but a lot of this stuff is physiologically predictable and not surprising. We know a lot about metabolic adaptation, and that's the terminology I and many other people like to utilize either metabolic adaptation or adaptive thermogenesis. And it's essentially an adaptation that the body has in response to the energy intake it's taking in, and its current level of body fat store availability. And no damage is associated in that term. It's adaptive and it's predictable. So this predictable adaptive state comes in the form of this body builder, having a reduced level of testosterone, a reduced level of thyroid hormone output. They're gonna have some leptin resistance within the brain, which could affect satiety and overall metabolic rate as well. If you're familiar with leptin, it's associated with a greater level of cortisol in the body. And very importantly, it's associated with a reduction in something known as non-exercise activity thermogenesis or neat for short. It's always very exciting and fun and cool to talk about the hormonal variations here, but this non-exercise activity thermogenesis plays the largest role in terms of what most people would refer to as metabolic damage. But it's simply just an adaptation of people being forced by their own biology to move less and less and less and less the linear and linear and linear and linear they get. And we've seen in the research that neat reductions can happen way faster, the harder you die it. So if you start to die,
it with a 40% deficit. Then your body, your biology is going to say, hey, whoa, this is a huge, caloric deficit. And we're going to need to decrease our energy expenditure in the form of physical activity each and every single day so that we don't reach dangerous levels of body fat because I want you to live another day. So that's kind of the response. Knee is something that's largely genetically determined. And you'll find that out as a contest prep coach pretty quickly when you put people on the same deficits and then others respond one way and others don't respond another way. There's a lot of genetics going on behind the scenes here. Even when you put people on the same diet, the same training, the same supplements, there's a lot of genetic variation. And a lot of that variation has to do with their neat levels. And slower diets are just kind of better overall for muscle retention and reducing kind of a post-contest binge fest anyways. So I'm just a fan of slow diets instead of hard diets for maintaining muscle, maintaining performance, maintaining psychological-- 70. Yeah, just a normal stage. There's enough to be worried about and nervous about getting on stage in a speedo. I've been there. And you already got enough to be kind of have anxiety about. So the diet doesn't really help that process. And when you're in a bad psychological state, you can get into a post-contest blowup. People just don't stop eating. It's-- they get into a scenario where it's pretty bad. But among many, many other things-- so we've got our testosterone, our thyroid, our leptin, our cortisol, our neat-- among other things that are complex metabolic pathways. But is it predictable? So in my viewpoint, when I'm looking at the literature, and I'm looking at textbooks on physiology, and I'm talking it out right now, I don't think adapt-- predictable adaptive mechanisms should ever be viewed as damage. They're predictable adaptations. This is biology adapting to something, which is what it always does. When we're in the gym, we train it adapts to become stronger. It'll adapt to become bigger, bigger. And if we are constantly asking our adrenals to do something, then they're adapt by producing less cortisol. There's adaptations everywhere in the body that we can predictably see in so many cases. And when it comes to that metabolic damage, I mean, everybody's probably heard of the Minnesota starvation study. By now, it's probably something that's been discussed on the podcast before. But I mean, these guys, essentially, they took 32 dudes, and they put them on a 55% calorie deficit for six months to try and replicate what it would be like to be in a prisoner of war camp. So it's a pretty bad study to be a part of, but the alternative was to actually go to war. So that's why these guys part in this study. But I mean, a 55% calorie deficit for context of the listeners. When someone hires me for fat loss, depending on what I'm looking at, in terms of who's sitting in front of me, I'll put them on like a 10 to 25% deficit. So this is more than double what I do. And sometimes, five times as much as what I do. And not only were they put on this deficit, but they had to hold it for six months. And throughout the six month process, they never showed any signs of metabolic damage. No signs of metabolic damage whatsoever. Now, they did have a reduction in metabolism. And this is what, you know, someone who is a proponent of a reverse dieting will say, hey, these guys had a reduction in metabolism by 40%. And they did have a reduction in metabolism by 40%. But when you go through the data, 25% of that was due to just a decrease in their size. So the smaller the organism is, the more decreased energy output they're going to have, size matters when it comes to metabolism. That's why weight is a part of the basal metabolic rate calculation. Size is like the biggest part, specifically size of the human and actually size of the organs, or the couple of the biggest parts that play a role in your metabolic rate on a daily basis. So these guys decreased their metabolism by 40%, but 25% of that reduction was simply just due to a decrease in their size. And the remaining 15% was due from the adaptation, mostly coming from non-exercise activity thermogenesis. But even with that 40% drop, even with them saying that it's still never stopped fat loss once. Fat loss happened the entire study. There was no slowing down of that process happening. And they lost a ton of their own weight. They actually-- the average weight loss across the study was 25% of their body mass. So for a-- hey, yeah, let's-- I don't know. Keyloas is always tough for me. But if it's a 200 pound male, then they would have lost 50 pounds over the course of this study, which would be like 50 pounds. That'd be like-- to a little like 22 kilos, I believe. Something like something in that ballpark. But it just was nonstop throughout the entire time, despite the severity of that deficit. So we can't ignore this kind of data. When you're going through to try and defend the metabolic damage argument, when you're trying to defend that argument, you're going to come up with your own case studies, which you can make up if you want to. And you're also going to come up with a lot of rat research. So when I'm looking at evidence-based reasoning in order to get my clients the best results, I don't want to rely on a handful of case studies from somebody who I don't know, and then accompanying rat research to go with it, and then just be expected to ignore the human data in this area. So it's something I just can't do, because when you take body composition into account, there's no evidence of metabolic damage in the literature. And I do mean zero. I mean zero. And this has been when you get outside the realm of strength and conditioning. So this includes anorexic women. It even includes malnourished individuals. It includes people starving in a prisoner of work here in Minnesota. It involves the actually controlled bodybuilding case studies that you can see within the literature as well. And then specifically in my world, if you guys do want to talk case studies, well, then I'll give you the best case studies of all time. Fighters literally starving themselves to make weight. And they're the worst. These guys are so mentally tough that before they come to me, they don't know what they're doing. And though literally not eat for multiple days or even a week, they just drink water. They completely starve themselves to make weight on time. And then that's just way in week. What they do prior to that is nothing short of starvation, either. Eight weeks out is just some trigger. It's old school fighter methodology to just drop all carbs and only have chicken and leaves. You just-- you become this meat eating rabbit. You just have meat plus leaves. That's all you do for eight weeks. Very vicious rabbit, though. You wouldn't want to get-- You wouldn't want to make that rabbit in a dark alley. They're fighters. So essentially what they do. So I mean, I would want to get in the cage and kick someone's butt after eight weeks of eating like a carnivorous rabbit as well. Part of the process. And if you want to talk metabolic adaptation and metabolic damage, why are we ignoring fighters? Because they showed no signs, even in the most extreme cases of any form of permanent damage or metabolic damage. And I'd be confident to just say metabolic damage can be considered a myth. There's so much data out there regarding metabolic damage in the most extreme of scenarios, both case study-based and right within the data, anorexia, prisoner of war. You name it, it's out there. So reverse dieting, which believe it or not, to the listeners, I think was the original question. What do I think about reverse dieting? Reverse dieting was born out of a false idea. So you're building a diet on the foundation of loose science that in my opinion has been quite efficiently debunked at this point. So when you're looking at the cost-benefit analysis, I believe there's multiple costs even when we start reverse dieting. There's still costs during the reverse dieting part that don't outweigh any of the proposed benefits. OK. Well, we'll have a chat about what the best approach is then coming out. But I remember, Raud and this must have been probably even-- it must be seven years ago, remember, sitting in your office. And this was one of the-- once the metabolic damage things started to pick up a little bit of speed, and we were having a conversation. I remember saying-- and look, I knew vastly less than what I know now, but I remember saying to you, what about prisoner of war? Yeah. W is like, they just keep getting leaner and leaner and smaller and smaller and smaller. And we went back and had this conversation. And then it was in the context of dealing with some females prepping for a bikini competition and apparently thinking the world is falling down because the fat loss had slowed. And when you think about it now, it's just energy balance and neat and all these other things. I guess one of the points you made at the start there Dan, with even when they return back to their normal body composition, all these factors-- the testosterone, the thyroid, the leptin, the cortisol, all these things. Even if you return to the same body composition that you had pre-diet, so much has changed in your environment that it's a-- you're only ever one person in one moment in time. Absolutely. You know? Yeah, for sure. I mean, things are changing the entire process. And there's so much that's going on in terms of the psychology and physiology of diet.
again, someone back, and all of the variables that can manipulate what they're perceiving to maybe be fat loss resistance, but it's just simply not true, especially when you look at all this data. Okay, well that said cool, we're all in the same page with that one, which is awesome. What about the suggestion that you will get greater levels of fat gain? Which I suppose lends itself at those metabolic damage occurring, but the, you know, it's, it's suggested you're your hypersensitive to, which for where I'm sitting, that would sort of make sense because you've got no body fat. So it makes sense that the body would have mechanisms to put more body fat on quicker, sooner rather than later, because you know, it needs body fat to be healthy. So it doesn't really, to me, provide a reason not to bring calories back up to baseline because fat gain is actually what you're after to a certain degree. But you know, that that'll be thrown around that you need to reverse diet because you know, you're going to be hypersensitive to fat gain. So you're going to like gain a lot more fat in a shorter period. You know, if you do go straight back to baseline calories, thoughts on that, I mean, if you're a big picture biology physiology type of stuff, like I mentioned, it sounds like it would be a normal adaptation to have an increased rate of fat gain. But any thoughts on that? I'm right with, yeah. Like, isn't that the point? You know, it's totally the point. It's actually, I think in a way, people who have a body image problem giving license to the idea that remaining in a hypocaloric state is a good idea. It's not. It's not a good idea. It's not, it's not normal homeostasis to be there. And that's why there is an adaptive mechanisms in place to try and stop you from doing that to begin with. And our job is to, you know, we can look great. You can maintain, you can maintain a six-pack year-round and be healthy. You cannot maintain contest prep shape year-round and be healthy. That's something that is reserved for only the freak of freeze because some people can. There are the hyper-acto morph people that look pretty crazy year-round. But I'm right with you on that. And, you know, that's one of the biggest cons of reverse dieting is the whole premise of their argument was to avoid metabolic damage. But they're introducing an idea that allows them to remain in the state that would perpetuate the thing that they're against. It doesn't make any sense to me. It's like you're mowing the lawn while the house is on fire. Like you're concentrating on the wrong problem right now. It's interesting, mate, because over the years I've worked with many athletes. And one example comes to mind where the individual kept sort of dieting and trying to maintain a certain level of body fat post-com. Not working with me gave the guidance what to do post-competition. And I think, you know, kept for a few months afterwards kept trying to keep in contest shape. And then went and run some bloods, you know, albeit should have been a decent timeframe couple months post-com. If they had gone back to baseline calories, gained some body fat and normalized their calorie intake and energy expenditure. But because the process went for an additional timeframe after comp when they went to the dock and checked the thyroid levels and that sort of stuff, well guess what? It still looked like there was adaptive thermogenesis, dam regulation, thyroid. And some other markers that would correlate with what's actually happening, adaptation during the competition process. So it's sort of like you're doing yourself a disservice. Like you're prolonging the inevitable. There has to be some fat gain. If you extend the dieting period for months afterwards, then what you would have faced over the short term post-com, you then eventually have to face it. And yeah, it was just interesting that that scenario can be one of the many scenarios that plays out post-com when you're. Because remember the norm that they have in their head is lean with the six packs. So anything beyond that is, oh my god, I'm so fat. So I mean the whole competition, I mean that's a whole different conversation, the psychological. The expectations and the reality. Yeah, and how hard psychologically it can be to do it, do a comp. And certainly for some that are not those, like you mentioned, Dan, that do stay in pretty good shape all year round, well they do a comp, yeah they look better, but they revert back to being in pretty good shape. But for some, in this particular individual, quite a big big journey, you know, 12 months in the making and then, you know, to revert back to higher body fat levels, which would have been still far better than what she was, you know, from the get-go. It's sort of like a very, I think, psychologically hard to deal with as well. Yeah, I totally agree with you. And like, yeah, I mean I've had a ton of contest clients and happiness really lies in the difference between expectations and reality. That's like what Tom just said. If your expectations are higher than reality, then your happiness is going to suffer. But when your expectations are in the correct place and you're being honest with yourself and honest with the available scientific literature, then you're able to auto-regulate yourself to do something that's not self-destructive in its own way. Because you're actually shooting in yourself in the foot when you remain in this haphacaloric state. So you're defeating the thing that you very much want so much to begin with. And when it comes to this kind of ideology, the same adaptations, mechanisms are still in place. Like you saw it firsthand with that blood analysis multiple months afterwards. And it goes further than that. Like, there's no evidence whatsoever that people can build their metabolism up by slowly introducing foods either. It's just human metabolism doesn't work this way. It's dictated by things like neat, like themic effect of feeding, like the
mic effect of activity, like basal metabolic rate. Like these are what ultimately control your metabolism and your total daily energy expenditure on a day-to-day basis and slowly introducing 100 calories per week is going to have no bearing on how the human body reacts in terms of its metabolism. It doesn't make physiological sense that you could step by step build up the metabolism that way. It's just, it's something that doesn't make physiological sense. And I think it also provides more psychological stress on the client too. Because they have to continue. They're extremely rigorous tracking, that rigorous calorie and macro tracking for many, many, many weeks after now. Whereas when you just go up to maintenance afterwards and you restore healthy body fat levels, you don't gain body fat, healthy body fat levels. And you get your glycogen filled up, you get your body healthy again. These are things that don't require the same level of physiological or psychological stress and are way better for the person, both performance wise and cosmetically speaking in the long run. Way better. Absolutely. And I think that's the, that's the point you make when you gain body fat to an acceptable level, a healthy level and not beyond. And that beyond is the typical scenario that I think a lot will see then, you know, raise their arms and say, well, metabolic damage, you know, clearly my metabolism's damage is like, bro, if I go get that, that person walking past me on the street, I get them, take them off the street, take them to burger joint after burger joint after pizza joint, eat chocolate every night for what, how long do you do it for a couple of weeks and we'll see how much fat gain they get. And remember, they usually stop training, stop doing all the cardio and activity, which is, okay, we can probably agree that dropping the cardio back is a good thing. But the training usually goes out the window and they eventually start back training again. Well, it sort of makes sense that in that environment, if you abuse calories in any way, shape or form, you know, you're going to gain excessive body fat beyond what you had previously, because, yeah, you've had adaptation and the body is hypersensitive to energy that wants to gain body fat. So I think there certainly has to be some, and of course, you know, often they won't tell you that that's what they've been doing. You know, I didn't want a two mil self plan, I mean, I've been there done that. I know the type of stuff, you know, hiding things from my partner to, you know, when they weren't looking, I'd go down and get it out of the fridge and where it was hidden and you know, you'd block a job and go back to bed, you know, this, I know what they're doing because I've been there done that multiple times. So yeah, it's, yeah. I think I think physiologically speaking, like I think physiologically speaking, it's like almost a shut case. Like people still argue about it, but I think they only argue about it because they're still new to going through the data. I think that that's kind of what, like it takes all, can take years to understand a subject, especially as complex as human metabolism. Jesus, it's huge. But I think physiologically speaking, the idea of metabolic damage is done. But I think that the next move in order for the industry to move forward is actually to look into the psychological reasons as to why people are actually staying and staying in this hypocaloric state and thinking that it's winning the cost benefit analysis. And I think it really comes down to a really important message that I would want people to know is that you just simply can't put the keys to your happiness in the pocket.
of having a six pack. You just can't, 'cause if, and I've just seen it, and it breaks my heart because someone will, you know, when I get lean, then I'll be happy. And that's a dangerous road to walk down. You have to be happy with yourself first, and then you'll become lean. You have to be confident with yourself before you go through the process. Because one thing I can tell you is the worst feeling in the world is to get an amazing six pack and then still feel the same. It's not gonna change, you know? You have to love yourself first, and then the rest is gonna fall into place, and then you're gonna be able to tackle this thing with the personal responsibility and emotional maturity that you need to make it a sustainable lifestyle. - Absolutely, but I will have to confess it. Excuse me, it will have to confess it's pretty damn cool. I do feel pretty amazing when I've got a six pack. I'm not shy of showing everyone the six pack too when I've got one, but I just bring us back to the original, the most important thing, which is Instagram. Forget this, but I'll just do it for the Gram Tom. I'll do it for the Gram. - Well, another very advanced tactic that you could do is get as lean as possible. Take 52 pictures when you're lean, and then release one picture per week on Instagram, so it looks like you're lean year round. - Very good. - Perfect. - There's a lot of things done in the book. - You're done. - Maybe like three different pairs of shorts or something, so it looks like a different day every day. Very good. - All right, I think we've nuked that one, Tommy. That was a pretty thorough, comprehensive, we went balls deep into that one, did you enjoy it? - I really did, I think that just put everything into perspective, really, really nicely. - Very good. - So while we're sort of in this ballpark, Dan, we've also had a few conversations of late, just regarding the calories in, calories out, dynamic. And what sort of things can impact energy balance beyond just the food on the plate and the amount of activity, i.e., the speed of transit time, and whether you're absorbing more nutrition if it's slower or not getting quite enough, if it's quicker, and what sort of things could influence the calories in, calories out, balance, and whether there should be any weight put into that and what your thoughts are on the topic yet. - And I suppose Tommy, you're getting into the world of, you know, do some things supersede the calories in, calories out, like if there are underlying issues, you know, perhaps like you mentioned, Tommy, with digestive issues, stuff like that, transit times a little out of whack, like at these things, going to be more important to rectify rather than, you know, adhering to a energy, energy in energy out, like I've got this right, I'm in a deficit, everything's good. Can't do that yet, because I have these issues, I need to resolve these, like what, big picture type stuff, yeah, break that one apart for us a little bit if you could. - Sure, so when it comes to calories in versus calories out, it's like, it's never a scenario of either or, and I think that's why people get confused. You, there's always two camps, you've got a camp who will maintain that all that matters is calories, and then you have another camp that maintains all that matters is that you eat clean, or that you follow my protocol that I sell stuff for. So there's gonna be two camps on either side. And anybody who says that calories are the only thing that matters doesn't know what they're talking about. And anybody says that says calories don't matter, also don't know what they're talking about. And it's kind of just classic nutritional industry dogmatism, where you have to be a part of a camp, and you can't just look at it as a whole, you know, it's like you see it in the training world. You'll get the key is to always avoid the guy, quote unquote the guy. If you ever have the paleo guy, or the Mediterranean guy, or the keto guy, or the bosubal guy, or the German volume training guy, anybody who is the guy doesn't understand what they're talking about, because you can't make all squares fit into a circle. It's just simply not how real coaching is done, and it's not even how physiology works. So whenever you're trying, I mean, that's like the biggest thing I could ever offer somebody. If anybody is ever giving you absolutist statements in training or nutrition or in dosing, you know, if they say take 10 grams of glutamine postworkout, okay, well hold on, for 40 kilo female and 150 kilo man, like what are we talking about here? Is you have to try and avoid absolutist statements as much as you possibly can? So that's kind of where the root of the problem is, is people feel like they have to pick a side, and you don't, do you just have to find out what works for you? That's what's gonna be the biggest factor in all of this, is consistency beats intensity, 10 times out of 10. So whenever you're finding a diet, the key thing you should be looking for is sustainability, 'cause nobody has a weight loss problem, but everybody has a maintaining their weight loss problem. That's where everybody falls short, and it's a simply ideal of sustainability, and not what camp or what Facebook group you choose to join. Now, addressing the subject beyond that level and diving a little bit more physiologically speaking, we kinda have to consider two main factors. Number one, the food in question, and number two, the physiology that the food is going into, 'cause nothing's gonna impact calories in versus calories out, more than the calories in that you're taking. That your food trackability needs to be on point. We can get to that in the future, 'cause most people are terrible at this, but it also matters. It's not always the food that you're eating, but it does matter the physiology that the food is going into. So what are some things that, you know, breaking those two categories down? We've got a food category, and then we have, and let's call it an organism category. The organism that the food is going into. So in the food category, we can't say a calorie is a calorie. We just can't, because foods have different inflammation indexes. They have different satiety indexes. They have different thermic effects of feeding, which can impact metabolic rate. They have different fiber content, which can impact your satiety in the health of your gut. They have different levels of antioxidants and vitamins and minerals, which impact a lot of the important energy pathways in the body and ensuring that we're a healthy organism, that biology gives a free pass to adapt to, because if you're an unhealthy organism, biology won't allow you to adapt from your training. But having the appropriate antioxidants, vitamins and minerals in place allow us to, you know, send the signals to our physiology that we are a well-fed and well-rounded machine. Foods can't be just called a calorie is a calorie, because of their water volume and caloric density. You know, a lot of people say that watermelon, well, it's just sugar. You know, hold on a second, because a serving of watermelon has four grams of sugar, which does nothing. It's like pretty much all water. So you get a ton of satiety, but very little calories, which makes it a unique food in comparison to say, grabbing a handful of trail mix, where you can get the calories up very fast, very easily. And then food also matters, you know. I'm talking about all of these protective measures, like inflammation index, satiety, stomach-effective feeding, fiber, antioxidants, water volume, but it can work in the opposite direction as well in terms of palatability. If we have something that's super palatable, like rotten get enough in the middle of the night and having a block of cheese, and then go back to bed. - Chocolate, chocolate, chocolate. - Not the recycling, chocolate. - Yeah, chocolate or a bowl of cereal, yeah. - Yeah, these things and specifically sugar, fat and salt. They can all activate different appetite signaling on pathways within our brain, which make it really hard to resist. Of course, we could be disciplined and be like some sort of Superman, Jocco willing type character, and just never given to anything ever because we're Jocco willing. But it's palatability works in that direction as well. So a calorie isn't a calorie for, I don't even know how many reasons I just stated. I was over 10 and I'm probably missing a handful too. So there's a lot going on in terms of food. Now when it comes to the organism and something that can impact overall energy intake and energy expenditure of the human that is on the meal plan that we're prescribing them, we have to consider that the organism may have food allergies intolerances or sensitivities, may may have gut health issues, which is affecting their absorption rates from their food, they may have high levels of stress which can reduce their thyroid output and also reduce their HCl secretion from their stomach which can then affect their absorberability of the food they're taking in. The organism may already have a low mineral content and we know things like iodine and zinc are important for making thyroid hormones. So if we don't have that, then I don't care how good your diet is because your thyroid's gonna be so low it's gonna be in the tank. So it's kind of like an independent variable there and then there's other things too, like hormonal levels as well. Like an organism that's on trend, well the calories are gonna be acted upon a little bit differently than if the person was not on trend. It's kind of a great example actually of, it's not always just the calories, it's also the organism. Well, if you're taking antibiotics, you're gonna do a lot of different things with those calories than you otherwise would have in a normal state of homeostasis and then even things like sleep length and sleep quality.
can affect our energy versus energy out. So it's not a matter of, is calories inverse calories out all that matters. It's a matter of just looking at the big picture and stop trying to pick camps because the health of the organism matters just as much as calories matter. They both matter, but how much one of the matters depends on the context of the person that's in front of you. That's essentially the breakdown of how I would essentially look at that. Okay. Right. Well, there's a few things to unpack there, Dan. With the food section, when you're out of the lot, at least eight to 10, various influencing factors. If you've got a handful as well. And there's a handful still out there. What about this inflammation index of the food? What sort of mechanisms lie behind a highly inflammatory meal or a low inflammatory meal, which might influence the ultimate energy balance of that particular meal? So it's essentially affecting the organism in the long run. So if you have a very high inflammatory diet, that can lead to insulin resistance and therefore mess up your carbohydrate tolerance. So that's one way inflammation can affect the organism. Inflammation of food over time can also increase one's water retention. So it may be perceived on the scale that you're not dropping body fat, but it's just being masked by the fact that you're holding a lot of water because you're highly inflamed individual. So that's something else that would be considerable there. And so these things with inflammation is less acute, more systemic sort of over time kind of thing? Yeah, absolutely. Definitely something. And that's a caveat I could see for everything that I've ever said on any podcast is that biology responds to averages over time. That's just biology. Biology always responds to the average over the course of time and very rarely in acute belts. Like people don't build muscle in the post workout window. People build muscle over the course of a well-designed periodized program over months and years at a time. So that's inflammation. It's just essentially would be having an inflammatory diet. And perhaps there's a lesson in that answer right there as well because no one food can make you unhealthy, but diets can make you unhealthy. And the reverse is true too. No one food can make you healthy, but diets can make you healthy. So the inflammation index plays a role in here. But it's very rare that it would be V-roll. And that would be it. It would be what the big picture looks like as a whole. OK. All right, what about in the context of not necessarily a camp, but scenario, and that you would be familiar with the Twinkie diet, the guy that just sort of did focus on calories in, calories out, and consumed a diet that was pretty much Twinkies. I don't know if you had a multivitamine, some other things. But over time, loss, loss, whatever, have a match weight. And then he did all his blood markers and his health in general greatly improved simply because he lost a certain amount of body fat, which in itself is going to improve a ton of health markers within the organism. So I guess in that context, as much as it's always going to be a big picture, and there's never any absolutes, I guess if you're going to get one thing right, should you put some emphasis on making sure the calories, because you mentioned also misreporting and that type of stuff, and that was a different topic. But ultimately, that is one of the key things you want to get right, I guess, is the energy prescription. Totally, totally. The energy prescription is so important. And honestly, and I'm probably even guilty of this at times as well, but it can be more exciting to talk about, say, inflammation index of a meal. And then kind of misrepresent that calories inverse calories out, it's essentially everything. So it's so important. The other things-- how I kind of like to look at it is you can't have one without the other. I like to think about it. Energy balance will ultimately impact the organism, but the organism impacts the rate at which energy balance will exert its effects. So that's kind of how I like to see it. A healthier organism will adapt faster, but ultimately, energy balance is what gets results at the end of the day, period. Very good. Very good. It's kind of like how I organize it in my brain and how I like to operate in my practice, because you just can't have one without the other. They both need to be there. And you can even feel this too. I'm sure you guys have been at an Arnold Expo or something. And then when you try to keep your macros correct, but you find yourself eating three protein bars that day. And even if my macros are correct, I feel like crap when I don't eat the right foods. It's like I get bogged down, I get bloated. So the Twinkie diet, I mean, that kind of an approach, it'll reflect itself, because he lost weight. So it's kind of a situation where it's causation's different than correlation. Twinkies didn't allow him to become healthier. It was simply the weight loss. So he will lose weight. He'll improve his insulin sensitivity. He'll improve his HDL, LDL ratio, he'll lower his triglycerides. All these things will improve, because he got to a healthier body weight. But that's not sustainable. And in the long run, nobody can sustain on that type of a diet. Now flexible dieting shouldn't be represented as the Twinkie diet. So I'm actually a fan of flexible dieting. I think it's great. Well, let's get into that on the next topic is the flexible dieting. And perhaps within that genre, if it fits your macros, which is obviously the extreme end of flexible dieting. So let's delve into that world as well today. I think it's great, man. When nutrition should be viewed as tools, and tools are only as good as their application. And IIFYM, when applied correctly, could be a great tool. That any coach would be lucky to have and use appropriately on a client. Like, I think flexible dieting is great within the correct context. But I think it's so great, because one study that I would like to see done is a study that shows results of what I've already known for years. And that the more you leave your diet in the hands of nutritional extremists, the more likely you're going to be overweight, period, no matter how healthy the intent was to begin with. Any nutritional extremist authority-- and the more times you put your health in the hands of them, the more likely you're going to be overweight. So I think that the emergence of flexible dieting was so fantastic. I think it's a great approach. And if anybody wants to do flexible dieting, it's pretty easy. You're going to have 1.8 to 2.2 grams of protein per kilo of body weight per day. Done. You're going to have about 20 to 35% of your daily calories per day coming in from fats. Done. And the carbs are the rest. Carbs make up whatever the rest was that. That's pretty. That's a free flexible dieting structure right there for you. So you've got your macros. You're ready to rock. I would never recommend going below 22 calories per kilo of body weight, because that's where some serious adaptive thermogenesis can take place. But essentially, you'd work with those macros that I just gave you. And then what you and I would have is the conversation that would say, OK, Rodden, I know you like getting up at night and having chocolate and cheese and everything else. So up to 20% of your calories can be used for junk if you want to. And it allows you to stay adherent to the diet. So this is accuracy balanced with normalcy. 20% of your daily calories can go to whatever the heck you want them to be. But the other 80% are within your quote unquote, clean foods category. And I would just give them a list of foods that they could eat from. And they would just follow that macronutrient distribution is. And I think it's great, because no matter what your approach is, adherence should always be number one. And since Rodden can't go a day without chocolate, we would put him on this diet. And cheese. What about-- is there-- because I know while Dean McKillip and Lizzie up there flex says, hey guys, I know they have also fiber recommendations. So they're aware that fiber is important. And they actually, I think, give the guys and girls that they are working with flexibly fiber recommendations. Is that something you also, if you work in that? Because I think it was 30% to 35% fat, 1.82.2 grams, pro tempore kilo and the rest were carbs. With those guidelines, are you also throwing in there some minimum fiber intake or just eat plenty of veggies type thing? Yeah, so the minimum fiber intake would be 15 grams of fiber, per 1,000 calories, of dietary intake. So that's going to be the fiber that allows you to have your satiation, but more importantly, go to the bathroom properly and have a normal healthy gut microbiome. So that'd be 15 grams of fiber, per 1,000 calories coming in the diet each and every single day. That would be a recommendation of mine, but just being perfectly honest, I don't do flexible dieting a lot. The people who come to me normally want the optimal of optimal results. And I don't give 20% away. I just don't-- Yeah, that was actually going to be my question, Dan.
I've got a client who owns a gym and it's like a group training sort of gym and he did a survey with his clients with a whole lot of long-term clients recently and it was their goals to improve, was it improvement or maintenance and they all put improvement and then he looked at what they were doing Monday to Friday and what they were doing on weekends and it was all maintenance. So they were hitting that 80/20 client of right, yeah good Monday to Friday and most days but they were outside of the night and doing these things. If we were to give Roden his 20% room to Wheatys chocolate and everything, are we going to get him in shape or are we just sort of keeping him floating there, thereabouts where he is? Or will I jump in there and say it comes down to calories? Well he will still get in shape, I've got guys get shredded, shredded lean for competitions while keeping ice cream in the diet. So it's something that can definitely happen and it's something that already has happened. So he'll get in shape provided he can stay at that, adherence is always number one and sometimes when you give away junk calories so 20% can come from junk, that can turn to 30 and 40 pretty good. Especially the leaner you get, the leaner and leaner you get the less and less satiety you receive from your meals and we just know that from the literature. So you're 20% even at a subconscious level can turn into 25% to 30% and we've seen that in the literature as well. So although he can, it's just harder and I think it's actually more advantageous to take the discipline approach at that point in time so you can just get your mind locked in on one pattern of eating until the things over. Yes and I think look most of the as much as you said a few can eat ice cream up until Chode you'll find most I think gravitate more towards a very structured regimented with not that 20% in there at the final stages of a comp rep just to take out that temptation and what are the psychological reasons that come along with it. But that's also my you know like I do see those types of diets set up and they you know the person I'm talking to will sort of be smile on their face yeah I'm going to have to have my three squares of chocolate at night. It's like three squares of chocolate at night like well I bought it like seriously but for that that's what they needed and it allowed them to so I guess it looked like a whole food diet like the very planned diet with three squares of chocolate. Yeah flexible dieting I was just a dude say what I do you just get three squares of chocolate so I guess like I love the flexible dieting like on the weekends like Tommy said and like the example you gave where you're out somewhere and you can okay I need we've got to hit about 2000 calories okay what's on this bar and well I think when you know that and any comprehend that it's not going to like you mentioned one one meals not unhealthy meals not going to make you know blow the budget type thing and that one day. As long as you adhere to to calorie intake even though you might suffer some bloating and whatnot you know you're still going to be on track with whatever you're going to be so I think that's where it's important to comprehend what having flexibility is and understanding macro. But you know because some just lose their mind it's like oh my god I'm at a restaurant I can't and I eat pizza I was out there was nothing on the menu so I broke. One of the guys these names Mike Dawn I don't know if you listen to the program but he won the under 90's that the IFB be a qualifying show for nationals crazy physique and he said you know whenever he was stuck he would go to McDonald's and get I think it was like a grilled chicken and salad from a fast food so you know you can go to McDonald's and when you're on the run and actually get something off the menu. And he realized you know X amount of protein look at the macro breakdown and he he is meal you know similar to what it would normally be it was just through McDonald's. So again you know if you put the effort into it you can eat just fine when you go out. Yep yeah totally and then even if you take it back to step to the general population like I think the flexible dieting approach works better for people who understand dieting. You know your general population person lots of times like they can't they don't even know what protein is like tell me my protein source peanut butter nuts no those are fat sources a lot of people have no idea what they're talking about so a bit flexible dieting approach for some people. Absolutely. Some of the time can be a bad way because even subconsciously if you think that convenience must be a part of the process to solution to be the solution to your problem then don't be surprised if you never solve the problem. It convenience is not a part of the deal here. It's not you're dieting so I think that it can be miscontrored sometimes like you can have your cake and eat it too that kind of a diet. But you can if you don't want to eat anything else that day. That's the thing that's the thing in a sort of like the guys like girls I know that that manage to maintain a great physique all year round and they're not tracking food is they they order regular they they realize that well I just they. And I do this as well on a Sunday I have a big sort of bacon and eggs and there's ton of calories in there so you know sometimes I've had lunch and I'll go through dinner time you know and that's what they do as well I they'll have a big day and then the next day they they're more active you know they're they're for a walk and they make sure they get the training session in they'll eat a little less on the following day or that day or a little less leading to that meal that we're going to have out so again I think it comes back to understanding just food. Food and calories and that big picture type stuff and you know really in that regard it can be quite easy to maintain a certain level of body composition but the caveat is for some it's far easier than for others and that that that look that that style of eating can maintain is also vastly different from person to person you know they can be yeah I'd live in flexible and I'll go for walk tomorrow but they still get their abs whereas you know the other person's physique resulted as a result from that style of eating might just be you know he's in okay shape type physique is just the way it is. Yeah I totally agree with you I totally agree with you and then I I also find that those people who do kind of do the junk food and still look amazing they actually look even better when they don't it's just exact thing yeah my experience has just been that over time I have nothing to reference that but getting people ready for photoshoots and shows when the stricter you are it's just going to be it's just going to produce a better cosmetic look your aesthetics are going to be better pumps going to be better you're going to be tighter you're not going to have the water retention you're not going to have a lot of the things that are seen as undesirable so you might do well in your regional shows but you're not going to do well once you get to the national level those guys will start to crash yet absolutely awesome I think we we did a really good job on that one I was thoroughly enjoying that conversation. Yeah that was yeah spot on the money down now to wrap things up you're going to be out in Australia February Perth Melbourne and Sydney it's a pretty exciting little seminar schedule that you've got put together because it's a Friday night free seminar then we've got a Saturday high peritory day and a Sunday fat loss day just break down for the listener a little bit more detail what's involved in this seminar series. Yeah for sure so we're going to be breaking down things on a level that are going to help people more than ever that's like my goal my goal is always been in our podcast in everything that we do is to provide actionable information that people have clarity on and are confident enough to start using in their practice you know there's been so many cases where I've learned a lot but I've been like I don't know if I'd ever use that like it's like it's something where you if you're talking to another industry professional it sounds cool to talk about you sound like an expert we don't really do any of that stuff in your practice and I want to reverse that I want to take that completely away so day one is going to be all about muscle building and day two is going to be all about burning fat and we're going to cover both ends of the spectrum so I'm going to be going over training in the morning both days and then nutrition in the evening both days seminars are going to be from nine to five and we're going to go through exactly what you need to go through in order to get real real results that you're confident providing for your clients and I'm taking step taking things even a step further and you're actually going to leave with free programs at this seminar and if you were to hire me as a coach online the cost of these programs alone far outweighs the cost of attending the seminar so you're going to leave with the knowledge on exactly how to design fat loss and hypertrophy training programs from scratch you're going to leave with the knowledge on how to design fat loss and hypertrophy nutrition programs from scratch and then I'm going to also give you exactly what I do with my clients because is like I said it can be frustrating sometimes when you attend a lecture and you learn a lot but then the the speaker never actually shows you exactly what they do in their practice like they're trying to keep some sort of secret or something like that and I'm everything is 100% open with me you're going to get access to my best research and then the methods that I use in my practice that have been extrapolated from that research for muscle building and fat loss so that's what's going on Saturday and Sunday I'm going to be in Perth in Perth.
February 9th and 10th, I'll be in Melbourne, February 16th and 17th, and I'll be in Sydney, February 23rd and 24th. And in all three of those cities, I'm also providing a completely free workshop to attend on Friday nights. And this workshop is actually going to be surrounding how to build a business online. So coaches, you've got to attend if you're interested about building a business online. You want to make some more money online. And gym owners, you've got to attend too if you want to use online pathways in order to drive more revenue towards your in-person business. So the free workshops and the seminar weekend, Australia, I can't wait to come down. Absolutely awesome. And you mentioned gym owners there. Obviously it's geared at coaches and PT's. What about anyone that's listening to this gym pump? Would they get a fair bit out of coming to the seminars as well? Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the things that people contact me about is when they talk, and it was actually the very first podcast that I've three ever did a few years back now, the biggest things comments that I got weren't about all of the science and the references that we talked about. It was about how they understood it. And I spoke in a way that they understood it and they got it and they were left with actionable tools. That's what everybody always said. I was the guy who could put things into layman's terms. And that's what I'm going to do at this seminar. So you don't have to be super hyper professional to be able to leave with all the information that I'm providing there. So if you're listening to me right now, don't be afraid. You can come on down and you're going to leave with a lot of value. Yeah, absolutely. Because Tommy and I are both doctors and that's why we understand everything you say. But yeah, listeners don't have to have been to university for many years like us. Super hyper ultra professional. Ultra professional. Yes, yes, yes. And last time we spoke about this, you also said that there was a little bit of a different perspective and a little bit of a spin on things with what you're going to present, not giving too much weight now, but maybe a different concept that our listeners might not be aware of in regards to, I think it was training on nutrition or something. Is that right? You got a little few tricks up you sleeve? Yeah, I've got some tricks up my sleeve, my friend. I'm not going to get too much away. I'm going to be going over some strategies loosely speaking. I'm going to be going over some strategies. I don't see anybody else talking about in the industry specifically to get over plateaus. So there's going to be special sections in the days that go over certain plateau bus thing strategies that I follow all the same experts. You guys follow and I don't see anybody talking about them. So I'm actually excited. I think we're going to break through some new ground in the seminars. Well, even not tell us or faith because we'll just jump on here and record something and make it climb the sounds. Yeah, we just completely ripped me off right before the seminar. Absolutely. And to the barway. Oh, I know. This is exciting. And Tommy and I are going to be, we should be able to come along to one of those in Fed. So we're going to spread the feelers and spread the love and get behind this seminar series and tag. I'll see if we can scab a couple of free sports Tommy. Yeah, I want to get some of those free programs and start dishing those out. Yeah, it's the under the barway. Under the barway. Well, hold on. So the under the barway is to get in for free and then steal my content out. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then, like how you guys are. And then of course you'll ask questions. Rodin up the back, anything you like to contribute, and I'll just be quiet on my phone and be really rude up the back and not engage in any way shape performance. The air of arrogance, you'll be able to sense the air of arrogance. Anyway, well, I might be confusing myself with someone else there. Yeah. Well, very good. All right, Dan. Well, it's been illuminating and an absolute pleasure as it always is. Really excited to continue touching the base and pump this seminar for February. It's good. Yeah, for sure. Thank you guys once again so much for having me on this podcast. And thank you to all the listeners listening as well. Hope you guys enjoyed it. And Australia, I'm looking forward to coming hangin' out with you guys in February. Less party. Awesome thanks Dan. Thanks Dan. Awesome thanks Dan. Talk to you then, brother. Bye. Yours. Yeah, Stan Garner. Once again, Rodin just does such a wonderful job of breaking down these concepts into easily understandable packages. Spice size chunks, yeah. Yeah. A couple of key quotes in there. The physiology of the organism and the food that goes into it. So what state is the body in general health status, hormone status before you're feeding it the food. And then that other further distinction that no one food can make you unhealthy. Absolutely. But diets can. It's that big picture biology stuff. And average is over time. Yeah. I think that's a relevant concept there and average is over time of crappy food. It's going to be bad and that falls under the diet. And you know, one of the things that I really love about Dan is his ability to articulate a response and really answer all the points that he raises because this is some of the guests that we have as amazing wonderful as they are. You know, they don't always necessarily answer the question. They give us some great content. But what I love from Dan is he always very specifically covers each point. And just the question. Yeah. If he's scribbling notes from his end, but very good at speaking. And I know he's doing a lot of speaking performances these days and I guess speaking at various things. Absolutely awesome. And like we mentioned, the program he's coming out to Sydney and end of February. End of February and Perth and Melbourne. I'd love to believe you. But you can go to Dan Gunner's team, Ghana, social media channels and get access to all the info for that. But that'll be absolutely well worth it. And I look forward to that actually. It's going to be a great answer. Three days of content there. It might have been the free day. And I'd like to know if people want to get in contact with you, where do they go? Yeah. So they can catch me at the DiBwire method at gmail.com if they want to shoot me a direct or on my Instagram or Facebook pages that can hit me up. So that's something that's up with me. Okay. For me,
[email protected] and I think the thrusters are starting, Rodin. Okay. We've got to get this puppy back to Sydney. This millennium, Noggin is not going to fly itself Tom. You better take the controls. I'll get on my side. Tom, are you ready? Just drop your cells in. Let's get out of here, Tommy. [MUSIC PLAYING]
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