207. DAISY BOW ~ 'Gourmands,' 'Authenticity,' & Other Western Constructs.

[Music] Welcome to the perfume room. I am so excited about our guest today. Many of you already know her. Today we are joined by Daisy Bo. Daisy is a part-time assistant professor of French at the New School, the Fashion Institute of Technology, and Mary Maltman-Hatton College. She earned her PhD from New York University, and her work focuses on French food and identity, perfume, and online language instruction. All of the courses that she teaches at these universities are in French. But if you are not currently enrolled in school and/or you don't speak French, fret not. Because Daisy also teaches one-off classes in English on perfume history and material culture for the Fragrance Alliance Network in New York City. I met Daisy a few years back at a perfume event, and I have been a fan of hers ever since. There was so much that Daisy and I wanted to chat about, and in our limited hour, we really tried to cover as much ground as we could. Daisy makes the case for the basic bitch perfume. We talk about her foray into perfumery and the origins of the courses that she teaches, and then we move into the meet-and-pataitos. Though, if I'm to reflect on our conversation, perhaps meet-and-pataitos is not the best choice of words. We talk not just about the notion of decolonizing and decentralizing scent, but Daisy posits that if we are really to interrogate this topic, this conversation goes far beyond banning the oard in perfumery. More specifically, Daisy explains that it extends to Gormons. How we label them and how we talk about them, which transparently is a topic that I hadn't really considered before Daisy shared her perspective. We also talk about the smell of sexy and how loaded that word is, sexy how and sexy to whom, and we end on a question for you. One surrounding third culture scent memories and experiences, and I will share it now so that you can think about it as you listen to the episode. It is this. When a scent memory is part of your lived experience, but its origins derive from a culture different from your own, what is your responsibility if any in how you represent that fragrance? And the example that Daisy brought up is the rise in matchellate perfumes from American and European brands. It's some genuine food for thought, and we would love to hear yours. Here is Daisy Bow. Daisy. Hi. Hi. Welcome to the perfume room. Thank you so much for the invitation. It's an honor. It really is. I'm so happy to chat with you. We've known each other for a few years. What do you smell like today? Today. Okay, so I'm actually layering two cents. Both of them are by Seline. One of them is Dom Parri, which is a Woody Vanilla, and then the second one is the Sandra Mandée Préwan. There is a love. I love that scent. Right. It's so good. It's so incredibly good. It's green and sappy and. A little hilia trolle too. Yeah. So the combination just makes me feel like spring. And then the Woody Vanilla makes it last a little bit longer. It's actually a combination that was suggested by the essay in Paris at the bullmouse. And when she sprayed them both together, I fell in love with it. And then I immediately cursed her for upselling me. Oh, she recommended the layering combo. Exactly. Wow. That's a good sales person. Exactly. Wow. Okay. And would you say that that falls in line? If you had to say what your signature scent or scent profile is, what is the closest thing that you could say is you? I think that my tastes have really changed significantly. I think that very early on, once I really started getting into fragrance and thinking about it, I wanted to explore these really avant-garde ones. I really wanted to explore fragrances that made me think. And now that I've been around for a while, I am a huge fan of the basic bitch fragrance. I just want to smell good and not think about it all day. And that changes. I've also been layering not intentionally, but just out of laziness because maybe I'll put something on in the morning. And there will still be traces of it when I spray something else on. And then I think, oh, that's actually quite a nice combo. So what's an example of like your current basic bitch rotation? Basic bitch rotation is the Matieu premier Parisian mask with the Alloria Béfray on top, which is a Korean paraphrase. I'm actually having a beer. Wait, what's the Alloria? Is it new? Yeah, I don't know base one. Part of the resonance collection. Is this Rodriguez? No, it's a Shia Mala Mizoum D'you. It's Korean pear. It's quite lovely. It's interesting that you call these basic bitch because, you know, there's an element of. No, I mean, no offense to the brand, no offense to the perfume. Well, you know what it is? I think that like you're saying basic bitch with reverence, but some people say it in a pejorative way. And I think that these are fragrances that are like really nice and beautiful and well crafted. But there's something that's just like easy. They don't have like a challenge in no in them. Is that what you mean by basic bitch? I'm not going to be like a gasoline or something. Yeah, exactly. They're not going to be ones where I'm going to be fatiguing my nose or I'm going to be exactly easy, easy to wear. I know that a lot of people don't like that term wearable, but what's wrong with that? You're going to wear it. It's nice if it's wearable. Exactly, exactly. Okay, and do you have. I know the answer to this, but. Did you have a fragrance hot take to share with us today? A fragrance hot take? Actually, I did have a fragrance hot take when we did the hot takes. Yes. When you did the hot takes. You can all hear Daisy in Hot Takes Live. Wait, what was your take again? My take was fragrance names that make me cringe. Yes, I remember. Okay. Oh, have we bleaked out? I know, I think you would. I was like, I knew. It was actually funny or bleaked out. I know, I suppose. I was like the one thing that was like me. Okay, anyway. Yes. If you haven't, Daisy has a great hot take about silly names of fragrances. But anyway, today. But that actually. that specific hot take was one that I came up with on the fly because I had another one, but someone had a similar hot take. So I thought, oh, maybe I'll just improvise. Improvise. You want something? What is your take that you'd like to share today? Hold on, I haven't on my newt sap, actually. Oh, okay. I know. Well, I mean, I came prepared for that specific event and I never got to use it. So I guess I get to use it now. Oh, perfect. I'm giving you the platform. I like your phone case, by the way. Thank you. Thank you. It is great. I was developing the sort of repetitive stress factory from typing so much. And this was recommended as a way to kind of take that. It's got like, it's got different grooves for people listening for like where your hands should like naturally. I mean, to be really honest, it does look like a bunch of sex toys. It does. I was thinking that it looks like some sort of like literal vibe. Stylier, type of word. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know what? Two for one. There you go. So my initial hot take was reformulation is not a curse word. Okay, let's hear it. So when I first started getting into like really getting into this community, there will always be this stigma against reformulated fragrances as if reformulate fragrances were a bastardization or some kind of inferior version of the first one. But to be really honest, reformulations happen for all kinds of reasons. And sometimes reformulations have to happen in order for us to continue to smell the legacy of these. I kind of wish people would think more about reformulations like wine and different ventages. I mean, no one complains that, you know, the 1999, you know, vintage smells worse or better or tastes worse or better than the 1991. Yes. I think they would have to. What a great comparison. I think it might just be good for everyone to let go of that stigma. And just think of it in terms of ventages or just celebrating something because of not for these reformulations. I mean, you know, there is some that do smell really different, but a lot of them initially what you smell, if you just wait for the dry down, it's going to be recognizable enough. There's going to be enough there for you to still love it, still enjoy it. And quite frankly, those people who are hoarding bottles of whatever, after a certain point, that doesn't stay static, you know, unless you're piping whatever in your chest. Exactly. So what you're smelling might just be after what, 10 years of maturing in the back of your closet, it might not smell exactly what it did when you bought it. So I think you we just accept this, this evolution or development of the fragrances that we have and the brands that we buy. I think that everyone just be a lot happier. I think it's a great hot take and I like what you said too about how in some ways it preserves the legacy of fragrances that if it weren't for reformulation would simply cease to exist. So you're welcome that you get to smell some iteration of what once was exactly solely because. Exactly. Do you have any examples not to put you on the spot? Do you have any examples where you like the reformulation better than the original? Let me think or maybe one where it's pretty different, but it doesn't bother you because it's gives you something new. I'm sure I do off the top of my head, but like anything else it's only the ones that make me sad that you can't remember. Okay, what makes you sad? Any of the carol, all of those make me sad. I don't know the originals. They all make me I don't know the originals either, but I know the ones that are not the current ones and the ones the the current ones that line up. I think that they're better like they're better than the iterations before them, but those iterations I feel are not as good as the ones before that. So carol has gone through waves I think and now they have new packaging. They have all of these bottles that are very uniform and I understand that brands have to shift and change and adapt and shed those fragrances that no one's buying a lot of. I get that, but you always have this nostalgia for things that have gone away I think. Right. And sometimes the nostalgia only comes because they're going away and you don't appreciate them. It's all you have. Yeah, you know, it makes me think of like I'm sure you're familiar with Gap dream, but Gap dream has been reformulated in a few iterations and every single one of them has disappointed me. I bought it and I thought it smelled fine until the most recent one. When did you when did you get when did you buy yours? Literally maybe nine months ago. Okay, the new one is good. Right? Yes, and definitely took me back to the 90s because I am well one of the what I have smelled in the last because they've like kind of quietly launched some bodies flash like formats in their like outlets or exactly they're the gap factory stores where you could find them. Yes, but they weren't but they weren't good. They were just kind of like generic freeja ask like missing that kind of like spice that the original Gap dream had, but the new one I'm like somebody somebody cook well. Yeah, somebody did something good in this kitchen because we are back baby and it was very exciting for me. Well, I mean, now that you say this, I actually pulled a fragrance out of my collection the other day and it was a fragrance that I wore all the way through university. So my signature fragrance was CKB. Okay, and I went through so many bottles of it. I think that my entire dorm room wreaked of it. And I didn't just have I didn't just have the fragrance. I also had the the body lotion and the deodorant whatever ancillary product they had. I owned it. Yeah, like I absolutely loved it. Yeah, and then I didn't revisit that fragrance for a long time until maybe about I would say around 2015, 2016 because that's when I started teaching classes on fragrance. And I remember thinking I should really pick up another bottle of CKB and I was so disappointed. I was so disappointed at the longevity. I was so disappointed that the white musk was so glaringly prominent when I distinctly remember it being a little bit more Tonka, you know, a little bit more lavender. But then I started thinking do I honestly smell a difference because there is a difference or is it just because I'm older and I've smelled so much other stuff. Right. I mean, maybe your nose is actually. I mean, you know, the way you even think about fragrance is different. So for me, I wasn't a heavy gap fragrance where and even those those very early bottles that were launching in the gap factory, I remember smelling them thinking like, yep, that's exactly what they smell like, you know, but I think that a lot of times our memories or fragrances are tied into our experience. Absolutely. Yeah, that's another, I mean, I guess it's all interesting as we talk about your hot take of, you know, some reformulations aren't always for the worst, but it's understandable. I sometimes someone can be disappointed when they had an expectation and it's different. But as a whole, your take is just wear it. Just wear it. Just wear it. Just wear it. Just wear it. Just wear it. Just buy it. Just wear it. Exactly. And honestly, like you could go hunting on eBay and spend hundreds of dollars for. But it might have gone bad. Exactly. Like who knows how that person has been storing it? Exactly. Okay. Well, you mentioned you've been teaching since 2015, 2016. I've been teaching for longer than that actually, but, but, but, um, so I taught all the way through graduate school. Okay. And so I think that, and this is going to reveal my age to my students, I think this will be my 26th year in the classroom because I taught all the way through grad school. Wow. Maybe not 26 years, but I definitely started teaching my second year of graduate, second or third year of grad school. So I, I think I taught, I went to NYU for graduate school. Yeah, let's get the backstory. You grew up in New York, right? Well, I'm from New York. So, um, I'm from New York. And then, um, my parents, they moved to the Midwest. Uh, that was a big culture shock. We're in the Midwest. Did you, when you were a child, like, what going up? I was a teen. A teen. Oh, that's hard. Where did you move to? Uh, my parents moved to Fort Wayne, Indiana. That is a change. Or like, maybe a little like preteen. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So tell me about that. Well, I mean, we moved in January. And I remember when the, it was literally a field. And I remember when the door of the plane opened, I just saw this much snow. And I thought what cold health did my parents bring me to. And I, I think that it, you know, like looking back, I don't regret. Or I mean, how can I regret it? It wasn't my decision. But there was a lot of good that came out from being in the Midwest and going to like high school, like, for example, um, I was able to study a broad in high school. I don't know whether or not I would have had that opportunity. My parents had stayed, you know, um, where did you study? So I was in Brittany, actually. Oh, cool. And that's kind of where my perfumed journey started. Okay. So I lived with a host family for an entire summer. It was part of a high school honors program run by Indiana University. I didn't even know the program still exists. But basically it was, uh, and a program where they placed you with families in Brittany. And those families and you had a pact to not speak any English whatsoever. So the family that I was in, I was actually into because I think that one family was not able to make their schedule work for the entire summer. So that family, it was so hard to leave them because I had grown so attached to them. And at the end of that summer as a going away present, um, my host mother said, well, we didn't really know what to get you as a going away present. So we're just going to do what we would do if you were a child, you know, our child of this age. So she took me to a perfumery. Wow. And the people working there, they just, it was so, it was such an adult kind of experience. They let me smell everything. I don't think I was there for hours, but it definitely felt like hours. And I remember smelling so many different things and feeling so adult, being able to pick out a fragrance. And I ended up with, um, Christian Dior's Dune, okay, which is like an aquatic without the water. I wouldn't necessarily call it beachy, but it's very dry. Yeah. Uh, it's very, um, you know, very kind of like an ozonic fragrance, but without the moisture, I think. Mm-hmm. And it is definitely a weirdo. It sits right on that in between gender wise, if you're thinking about market distinctions of gender. And I remember I was so enamored with it. I was enamored with the feel of the bottle, the color of the bottle. I was enamored with the scent. It didn't smell like anything that I had ever come across before. Like my grandmother was a big Chanel number five where my mother loves white florals. And I remember I came home and my mom confiscated the bottle. Yeah, she was just, she just said, you know, this is inappropriate for like a person of your age. So I remember she took it. And then when I went on, were you wearing anything else? So I was your first perfume. Yeah. My first real perfume. I mean, I had like Debbie Gibson's Electric Youth and just these other kind of drugstore things, but nothing like that. And I remember because I went back to the same family the following summer and I went back to the same family like every summer until I was, it was really nice. Like home away from home. Yeah. And so the second year I went I think my host mother asked me what happened to that bottle. And I was like, my mom took it. And then she was like, well, we're gonna get you another one. And then she sent me home with Muglera's angel. - Well, she's like sending a message to your mom. - Exactly. And my mom, she didn't take it. - Don't you take her perfume right? - That's gonna get worse. - Exactly right, she didn't take it. But she was like, you're not gonna wear it anyway. And it was true. It was overpowering. It was so strong. And I think it wasn't until I was an adult revisiting angel that I thought this is a masterpiece. And that was one of my signatures. Like if I think about my collection, I own more iterations of angel than I think of anything else. - And there's lots of iterations. - There are lots of variations. Well, not anymore 'cause they've done some heavy pruning. Sadly, they've done some heavy pruning. But. - Now they're doing the flinkers of alien. And it's like alien essence, alien besence, alien essence. - They're becoming late bodega names. Like how many times can you remix organic green fresh? - I think I saw like just something on social media about that too. - I saw the same video. It was the UCB video about making the bodega. - That's it. So funny. - So that was your first foray and descent. Now, cut to your in grad school. You start teaching. You studied French in university, right? - Mm-hmm. - So French was one of my majors. And then I also did philosophy and anthropology. And it all kind of comes together here. So when I was in graduate school, I was working on a dissertation on French food and all the biography. And this was kind of a shameful hobby that I hid from everyone. Because when your grad student and your stipend is so low, it's a little bit shameful to say that you spent $300 on a perfume. - I didn't eat tonight. I. - Exactly. - It's free to. - Exactly. I ate beans on toast for whatever. - Right. - Sardines on the can. So I kind of kept it under wraps. And back then, each bottle was so incredibly precious. I would spend hours trying to pick like the bottle that I was going to spend my money on. - Can you share some of those acquisitions? - Absolutely. So I remember, and this is a shout out to everyone at IATIS. - Is that any pronounce it? - IATIS, IATIS? - I know. I've always said 80s. - Well, I mean, I don't, I've never studied Latin. - Okay. - So I'm, listen, your guess is good as my- - We're both, yeah. - Yeah. - It's one of those things where it's like, you said it sounds right? - I'll run on it. - So I remember, you know, like, they were so generous and they were so kind to just let this kid, because I was just this 20 year old kid. Just go into the shop and smell everything. They never chased me out. They were so generous with their time and their knowledge. And also, they're insistence that I try, I live with it before I buy it. - That's awesome. - And I remember like Roberto won, he gave me a sample of molecule one. - Wow. - This is when- - Oh, six, like when it came out. - Exactly, exactly, like so long ago. - Yeah. - And then he's like, you might not be able to smell it on yourself, but believe me, it will be a presence. And I remember I was so enamored with it that I just went through, I think maybe six bottles of it. - Wow. - I know it's insane. - No, sometimes people are like, I'm obsessed with this fragrance, but then they make like this much of a dent. That's a real, you're a real wearer. - I was committed. I was really committed. And there are some other fragrances from that era as well. If you like the first Mark Jacobs fragrance was very tuberous. - Yes, I know very well. It was like that in Michael Corris, which white floral are you gonna lean towards? - Exactly. And then my taste and the weird that started with Dune never left me so outrageous. Like that was Sophia Grojans for very weird, like Kui Perenia, Granny Smith Apple, in a long-term app, very strange. - How the latexy thing about it too? Like is this a real- - Yeah, it's weird. - I remember primarily where I had to get it. It was on the counter of the Barney's co-op in the denim section, the denim bar. - I know it. - So I went through several bottles of that. I still have my last bottle with the aluminum cap and someone asked me if I would ever spray it because there's a couple of milliliters left. Oh no, I mean, that's probably turned. And also, it's sort of like memories in a way. And then also I know that it's entered into the permanent collection. Whether I don't know if it's a top seller, I can doubt it probably. 'Cause it's so strange. - It finds its people. They took away the exclamation mark, which I was a little upset about. But I think that I don't want to smell it again. I feel like that memory, I just want to keep it, you know, like buried in the sand. Just as strongly as it is. - In a Dune. - In a Dune, exactly. Okay, so you were collecting fragrances in the early 2000s and you were studying, spending your stipend on perfumes. - Exactly. - And yet, so okay, so then what? - So I wasn't really thinking much about fragrance until I was trying to finish my dissertation, which was a really difficult process for multiple reasons. I would go to the basement floor of the library, just so I wouldn't have any distractions whatsoever. And I was just going bananas down there. There were no sunlight, you're just in the sacks. And I just wore a different fragrance from this giant horde of samples that came from, you know, like I eat ice, min, all these different places. And I would just grab one out of a drawer and just wear a different one each day. And they're alone in the, you know, stub whatever of the library. I would just procrastinate and look up these fragrances. I would look up the names of perfumers. I would look up the listed notes. I began to ask myself, like, what does it mean? Like, you know, what does this copy refer to? And then just sort of grew from there. I think that what helped the most was that I happened to be getting into this right when a lot of people, like, like, started blogging on WordPress. And I know that there were a lot of people online on makeup alley and all these other message boards and groups. And but for me, it was sort of the more of a second wave, if you can call it a second wave. And I started just leaving. - I looked at you about perfume blogging. - Is that a wave? - The second wave of perfume blogging. - Exactly, it makes it sound legitimate. I mean, I guess it is now when we think about these different iterations. - Totally. - Like, we think about right now, actually, I'm in the middle of prepping a new perfume history class for the Fragrance Alliance Network. And this is a follow up on the perfume history of the 90s class that I taught a couple of months ago. This is perfume history, Y2K. Now, Y2K is quite a narrow range. We're looking at kind of the 1996, the mid '90s, and then the early, early 2000. So it's quite a narrow band. But my interest here is that it's really the point in time when we start to see niche become a recognizable, or maybe not recognizable, but a legible category. When you start to say, I'm into niche fragrance, people have more of an idea of what that means. That doesn't mean that these brands are associated with niche like DipTek now. It's not like they didn't exist prior to that, but starting to enter a conversation, I think it began to coalesce around this time. And you also saw this movement towards criticism and thinking about fragrance in different ways combined with this enthusiasm, discovery, and generosity, which I always associate with the fragrance community. And then now we're seeing this additional wave of podcasting and then also reviews on YouTube. It really changes the question of authority, who is the right to say this, who is where are they getting their information from, who's disseminating it, how is it being diffused to each other, or public? - One of the things you mentioned in all of this, and I think it ties to what you're talking about, about who gets to talk about perfume, and how do we determine who we listen to, is you mentioned the fragrance alliance. So just for some background, we are currently recording in a room in the new school library because you teach a fragrance course in French here. - Yes. - And you teach it the fragrance alliance. - I do. - So before we get into some of those topics, like I think this idea of like decentralizing scent and all that is definitely something I wanna talk about with you, maybe you can just talk about how you ended up becoming a professor of perfumery and what you teach. - It was actually at the suggestion of my chair at the time here at the new school. I initially came to the new school to teach classes on French food and culture in French, and then you just start thinking about the other things that you can do. And initially I started thinking about this strange interest and I think, thought maybe there's something here. In many ways, the history of French food or the development of French cuisine, it runs on parallel tracks to the development of what we call French fragrance or the fragrance industry. So I started thinking about that and the new school is great in terms of being a place that is really open to exploring topics that are not taught anywhere else. So I did have that advantage in a way that support was really valuable. And now it's become fairly popular. I think that one of the things that really caught the attention in my department in the beginning was not just a class on fragrance and then using the discussion around fragrance as being a way to get students to talk and communicate and practice in another language, but also the development of a new kind of textbook. So I hesitate to call it a textbook because I think that there are some people that really challenge that notion. They have a very traditional idea of where the textbook can be. But when we initially conceived of an olfactory textbook, we weren't really thinking about a paper, exactly a bound paper. In fact, I brought the latest iteration of the olfactory textbook for you. And the textbook is perfume. It is. So you've got about 30, 35 samples. Oh my gosh. Cool. It goes over a semester. So sometimes when people hear me talk about the classes that I teach. I'll give some sounds to the listeners. This is the textbook that you are hearing right now. Sometimes when people hear about the classes that they teach at university, they're like, oh, I want to take it. And my first, my first sort of instinct is to say, sure, but you have to apply to the college and you have to, you know, sign up to the new school. I'm not explaining. Sign up as a non-credit student. And also, are your language skills going to be good? Can you do it in French? Yeah. And also the time commitment. I think that a lot of people who have been out of school, they immediately black out the fact that their semesters were 15 weeks long. Yes. And the classes meet twice a week. So, and then they go, oh, I will have to enroll. So, but you also do these, like, sort of one off, like a few hour courses at fragrance. What is the fragrance alliance for people listening? So the fragrance alliance network, I think that the best way that I can explain it is that it is the brainchild of Justin Romero, who is, you know, he's an independent perfumer. He works in the industry. He is just an amazing, amazing soul on. So grateful and also thankful to be a part of his vision and then also very honored to call him a friend. Anyway, he had this idea to launch an independent organization for perfumery education in New York. Amazingly, we've never really had anything like that. It should exist. And like LA has I.O. Like there wasn't a thing here. Exactly. There are programs, right? It's the San Kim songs program at Pratt. You also have the cosmetic, some fragrance marketing program at, you know, FIT, which also has a graduate program. But there hasn't been something for the amateur or someone who's interested in stepping into this world. He just wanted to make sure that there were opportunities to actually have perfumery education, to learn technique, to learn how to build a course, to learn all of these things and also classes on perfume, history, culture, material culture that wasn't directed by a brand. This is nothing against master classes from brands, but a master class is often an opportunity for a brand to, yes, of course, okay, so brand. It's not great, but that also includes a bit of curation, a bit of mythology and the underlying goal to get you to buy the product. And that's not what our goal is. Our goal is purely education. Right. So when he was looking for someone to teach the classes on perfume history and culture, because he didn't just want to teach technical courses at the fragrance lines network. He asked around and, you know, Karen Dubin from Snifle, Pulusa, she mentioned to us that, oh, Daisy has been teaching these classes for a long time at university. She has its appearance, not only teaching, but also putting together a syllabi curriculum, these kinds of things. And he reached out to me and then it's gone from there. So it's been great. It's been great to teach my native language. That's good. And then also it's been great to be able to explore these different topics with a different audience. Right. And people who can't commit to enrolling at the new school, I just want to do a one off. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, so I do monthly smelling sessions where I carry. They're really fun. But I like, but what you're doing is really cool and totally different because it's more on like cultural, like a cultural lens, which I think is so awesome. And I hope people listening. If you're interested, I'll make sure that I drop the link to whatever you're teaching coming up in the notes of this episode. And I want to join two quick announcements. One, the theme for April Smell Club is going to be April showers, exploring the note of rain and perfume as conceived and experienced by different perfumers. We will explore all different types of rain, different rain accords and different rain smells. It'll be soothing and interesting and engaging and fun and tickets should hopefully be on sale by the end of this week. As you were listening to this, if not this week, very early next and sessions, as always, will be held at the very end of the month. So look out for that on Instagram, on Substac, on my mailing list, I will have more details do share soon. And second, this month I will be at still for in-person private-cent styling sessions on Sunday, April 19th, all day. And Tuesday, April 21st, if you would like to sign up to do a session, you can do so at the link in my bio as well as the notes of this episode. You can sign up for an hour long session. You can also book a duo session and come with a friend or a lover or a family member. You are ex. I do not care. It will be fun. Imagine an hour of me curating sense just for you in a private room of style where you can sit, relax, unwind, drink some wine and or sparkling water and really get the tailored attention that you want to help you learn about brands and notes and find exactly what you are looking for. Again, April Sessions will be held on Sunday, April 19th and Tuesday, April 21st. And as I have said before, if you are not based in New York and you are here for a limited time and you want to do this, just message me. I will do my best to get you in on a time that works for you. So one of the things that I want to get into, I want to talk a little bit about some of the topics that you're passionate about that you teach about. I mean, I kind of want to go back to, since you mentioned it already, this notion of who gets to disseminate the information that we talk about with scent and how do we determine who we're going to listen to. And I know that you've been also focusing a lot on the notion of decolonizing scent. And I don't know if you see those as intertwined or. As we were talking before, we started recording. When I started developing this course on perfume history and culture, it was very Eurocentric. 2015, it's amazing you think that that was over 10 years ago. The conversations changed so much within that 10-year span. Not to say that questions of exosysm fetishism, decolonization, colonialism, it's not to say that those didn't exist before, but did it really reach the average person listening to podcasts, watching reviews online, taking in all this content, engaging with it, not really. I think there was still this mythology around France and luxury brands and this sort of cloud that has been accumulated over centuries. Now I think people are much more willing to look for different points of view from different places. And I think that that's what I'm super excited about. Like one thing that we talked about briefly is this question of decolonization. For me, it also extends to other fragrance categories beyond the ones that the one that people think about when they think about decolonizing fragrance, which is the ambery category, for me when I started thinking a little bit further outside of that, I started thinking about hormones. And because I come from a food perspective, food is always so intimately tied to your identity, not just your individual identity, but your national identity, your ethnic identity, cultural identity, social identity, your family heritage, all of that. And food for a lot of people when they think about food and fragrance, they immediately think about these designs. Fragrances are, Fragrances inspired by dessert. But dessert is a very Western idea. Even the word gormande comes from French. - Right, gormande is something. - La gormande is, yeah, so, you know, but that is really more like, I mean, its initial meaning was gluttony just through the over and dull chance. And it's only since the launch of Angel in the 90s, do we start to associate sweetness, you know, Western style desserts, these kinds of things with the fragrances. But there are so many different points of view coming out of Asia in particular that are starting to challenge this notion of sweetness. And there's also this ongoing discussion in the food world about Asian identity and food that is too sweet. I think that it's very common for someone of Asian descent or someone of Asian to look at a dessert, you know, and then say that they like it because it's not too sweet. As if too sweet is something very Western and not too sweet is a marker of discerning taste or a validation of Asian identity that has been marginalized over centuries or you have this notion that you're positioning yourself as an opposite to a dominant culture or dominant society. And that's been really interesting to see how it plays out in fragrance. The work Gourmond is somewhat limiting as well when it comes to fragrances like I'm looking at some of the ones that I brought, I brought Denon's for breakfast. - I love that one. - I love that one too. I love that one too. It makes me super hungry. It feels like it is a giant bowl of fowl, exactly with the herbs and the citrus, but would I necessarily call that a Gourmond? What is it? - Well, that's where there's been these subcategories. - I know, but categories are a lot like gender in a way. They are manufactured, they are constructed. And like we think about citrus, perspiration fragrances, what if you explode the category and just turn it into the fruity fragrances? - And also the fact that fruity is Gourmond, but it's not Gourmond, like it depends on what the context is. - It's exactly, it's exactly. - You eat fruit, so. - Exactly. And then maybe the Gourmond category, maybe we strip it, make it even more generic, call it food, just. - But isn't Gourmond also mean just like food? - I think that will be initial Gourmond as a word, it comes around quite early. Like we're thinking about the 16th century, I think. - Okay. - As when we first see it emerge and written literature and it really just refers to being a glutton or gluttony. And it doesn't begin to become associated with positively until much, much, much later. And when people think about Gourmond's now, they do think about fragrances that smell like cupcakes, cake, dessert, chocolate, cookies, all of these other things that are so Western. But then we see some other ones too, like going back to Denam, I love that brand. I really love it. I love their mission. I love how even though the founders of the brand, even though they are the enemies, I like how they have advisors for each of these different chapters focusing on different parts of Asia. I like that. I think it's a good way to approach this idea of authenticity. How do you tell these authentic stories? How do you approach the identity of these different places? I'm sort of valid. - So are there advisors on that? - So if you go on to the website and just look onto, you know the different chapters that they have, chapter, woman's Vietnam, chapter two was Japan, chapter three is China. When you look at the presentation of the chapter, they'll tell you who the advisor is and then any other additional information, like who the perfumers are. - And are the perfumers Asian as well? - I think most of them are. Most of them are. - Do you know Tracy Wan? She's the invisible stories. - Oh yes, well, I mean, I know of her. I've never met her. She just posted a video that was really interesting. - Yeah, she's awesome. She's been on the podcast to a great person, brilliant. But she just posted a video specifically about Asian perfumery and the differences you see when it's like a non-Asian brand and a non-Asian perfumer, when it's an Asian brand, but a European perfumer, and then when it's like an Asian brand and an Asian perfumer who's creating it from there, they know how and their culture. And just that she wasn't necessarily chastising any iteration of that, more just like commenting on like the authenticity and the differences and like what you'll get in each of those different, like layers of the iceberg. - Absolutely, I mean, I get that. I also understand maybe it's because I've created a career, you know, like speaking the language of the colonizer. - That's why I was curious. - I'm like, okay, so you're talking about decals, and I'm sorry, but you're teaching for perfumery course and design. - It's just where I am now. It's just a series of poor decisions going all the way back to middle school. (laughs) No, no, but I mean, all joking aside, I think that there is a way for someone who is not from that culture to be respectful of another person's culture and create something that is authentic. You know, this question of authenticity as well, I think it's a very interesting word because it means so many different things to so many different people. I think about the discourse about authenticity in terms of food. A lot of people, for example, use Yelp as a case study for questions of authenticity. If you just look at random Yelp reviews of whole-in-the-wall, ethnic, quote unquote, restaurants, you'll see that a lot of people claim that this restaurant is authentic, but you have to ask yourself, how does this person know? - Right. Who is the person who's calling it authentic? - Exactly. - And what criteria are they using to give it that title? - Exactly, is it Noah, the transplant from Montana? Tell me what the Chinese restaurant is authentic? I don't know. - All right. - All right. - And I think that a lot of times, questions of authenticity in the West, boil down to class, immigration, linked to class, economic status, economic, political power. And for a lot of cultures and a lot of ethnicities who are in a lower position in these different like strata, I think that for them to call something authentic or to have that put on top of them is a really heavy weight to bear her. I think that the question of authenticity, I know that there are a lot of chefs and restaurants that do not like that term at all, because of interesting. - Interesting. - The negative connotations that carry it. - You know what I hadn't thought of it as loaded as you're saying it is, you have to carry the weight of your culture for everybody who's an outsider who's gonna perceive your culture. - Exactly. - Yeah. - When I teach the section with my students, we often use the example of restaurants that are trying to deliver a vision that is challenging what the existing stereotypes of their culture are. For example, you might have a Vietnamese restaurant that's trying to represent Vietnam today. So they might think about street culture and street fashion and they might think about music and try to create an ambiance that reflects all of that. And if it's not fitting the idea that you have straw hats and you have fuff or less than $8, do you ask someone who's expecting that to suddenly spend $26, $32 for a dish that they're unfamiliar with? I think that this is difficult. People are asking, oh, is it this much because it's a fusion? Is it French fusion? To think that just the addition is actually the value. - The absolute gives it the price for you. - I think we did see it somewhat in perfumery in the beginning. Maybe not so much lately, but I do think that there was also a period in the beginning when people thought partnering up with French perfumers or much more established European houses were a way to create value or add value to cultures that they thought maybe wouldn't naturally be understood by a Western audience or a more global audience. Now I kind of feel that there are many brands that are really looking at being quite proud of who they are and where they come from. I think about Alloria, I think about Jay Sant, I think about, or even thinking about some of the very, very, I mean, weird to think of it as early but arch-east and thinking about the work that Carlos and Rodrigo have been doing. Initially I felt like it was very much Carlos's journey that we saw in those very very first bottles. Yeah. I mean I think it's also interesting too because you were talking about how there can be a way to create something that is inspired by a culture that is not your own. You just have to do it. I feel like the right way is also a loaded thing to say. But in your opinion, when does it not feel like it to you? We can talk about like our case as an example because there are lots of stories from different parts of the world and different pieces of history or like another one is L.A.K. from Sonia Kulnstom. That's a French perfumer who's her. You know what? Can I pitch something? Sure. Absolutely. Well I think it has to be. it can't be sort of fetishizing something but I think also if you're like. and if you genuinely are an equal opportunist, if every region of the world is fair game, it feels a little less fetishizing. You know what I mean? Versus brands that are not from a specific part of the world or part of a specific culture and they exclusively do that culture. I think if you're someone who's just really interested in world history and it's evident that you've done the research and you love history and that's how you're doing it, which is some. then I think it's a little bit different. I think that we see very similar discussions happening in fashion. This idea of when does my culture become a costume? Right. It's sort of when is my culture being used to make money and sell perfume versus someone who has put in the work? Yeah, I think that that's something that can be. I mean the work I don't think is something that you can fake. Yeah. Okay. You know what you were mentioning earlier that was making me think of another topic too. You were talking about in Asian culture how enjoying a dessert because of its lack of sweetness is almost seen as like a discernment of good taste but it also makes me think about like sexism in fragrance marketing and how so many gourmands are very like gender coded and very like fruity like. Exactly. And fluffy. But it's a food. It's a flavor. Like I don't know. I was just kind of sensing that parallel. So over Valentine's Day, well I mean for Valentine's Day Gus asked me if I would do a special class, there is a spin-off of a class. Two classes actually that I teach at the fragrance lines network. One is on food and fragrance and the other one is on sex smells with the M in parentheses. So sex sells. Oh I like smells. Yes. So the sex smells class we really talked a little bit about why is it when you look at marketing, when you look at images like perfume images, advertisements, those kinds of things. Do we see so much sex associated with gourmands fragrances and with sweetness? The kind of most obvious thing to say is like, oh it's edible. I want to be edible. But I think that there are also so many questions tied into that as well relating to gender, power, authority, age. There's something about a sweet dessert fragrance that feels infantilizing almost. And I think that it's often associated with girls, younger girls. And there's a real creepiness around that if you really think about it. Definitely. And one article I came across, this was, I think it's an internet publication's days. Oh yeah. So they did this one where they asked strippers what fragrances they wear. And it turned into a much meteor article. I mean, I didn't mean that. I feel like a joke way. But it turned into a much meteor article and I was expecting. And some of the strippers said that they do wear quite expensive fragrances, but they would never wear them in the club because that environment is not worth the cost of these. They're not going to sweat off. Right. $400 fragrance. But they do use a lot of body sprays, victorious secret, bath and body works. And also those are very diffusive. True. Ultimately. And it's meant to, it does what it's meant to do. And I think that one one stripper in particular was saying that the smell like that, like all of those body sprays. Like I've got a classic one here. This is warm vanilla sugar. Oh, a true classic. A true classic. Sure. And I think that there's also something. Right. There's also something really accessible about it. And also non-threatening. Like one of the strippers made, she had this quote where she said that you want to be, you want to come off as accessible clients. You want clients to find you non-threatening. You want them to. And there's something about that really sweet, deserted fragrance that makes people feel, I don't know that these are not going to be tough women. These are not going to be women who are going to be threatening. And I find that to be really interesting. It is interesting. I mean, okay. So just kind of summing up everything you said because we sort of started in this conversation where you were talking about how if we really want to decolonize scent, then it's not just the o-word that we have to get rid of. It's also gormonde. And then we took it one step further where the smell of sexy is gormonde because we want to smell edible and of it's because of its approachability. Ultimately, which I also think it's so interesting is like how do you sort of like categorize or codify like what is sexy when it smells exactly. Actually, I have something really funny to contribute to that. So when you're thinking about sexy, sexy is subjective. What is sexy to one person? It's not going to be sexy to another person. A lot of it has to do with context and experience. And also the culture that you grew up with. There's also this subversive quality to it. Like what is strange, what is unknown is mysterious. And that is also sexy. That is something it's extremely difficult to study. But there have been some studies about the actual sense that gets people's motors actually running. So I think that this particular study focused on temperature, blood, increased blood flow to certain areas of the body. And the sense that they found trigger that kind of response. They were jelly donut. This actual diameter sense? No, no, no, no, no, no, it's actually the smell of jelly donuts. I think actually we have we have Demeter jelly donut. Yeah, Demeter. So it was jelly donut baby powder cucumber lavender, cinnamon bun and weirdly licorice. And it was on every list. Wasn't like I feel like I'm red. It was also. Yeah, but it was it was the combination. I think of some things. The combination of licorice and it was just it was very, very do you feel turned on? I'm selling baby powder and right. It's hot in here. But I found that so interesting because for me when I'm looking at that random list of I feel like their focus group was like three people. Like I feel like it says more about the researchers than it does about like what did the researchers have lying around the house? Right. What were the options? Yeah, it's like someone was running late to their focus group. And they're like, shit, I gotta go. Okay, um grab that baby powder. Can you get the news for in the paper rub and then also the oh the pumpkin pie. Exactly. It feels like some kind of improv sketch where you're given a bunch of random things and you have to come up with something. Yeah. And then people are like, I mean, I guess I like the pumpkin pie more than the fucking paper rub. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I think I think I would posit that that study with a bigger focus group and with more samples because these are just it was peer reviewed. So whatever that means by their friend who is like, we look at this. All right. No, I don't know. I'm not dissing the scientists or the the researchers who did this. But I do I do remember reading that and I also was like, this feels so incredibly random. Right. Yes. Totally. Yeah. And then I think that a lot of times when people talk about sexy since they talk about frameromones. So I'm sure that you've smelled this. This is of course I have. Yes. Yes. So it smells like I think I feel like it smells like a lip gloss that I used to like that I wanted an arcade because they got sued. I think more than once for misrepresentation. Yeah. No, this is it's really a lot of this too is like placebo and like absolutely. If you feel sexy. Yeah. Absolutely. And also, um, frameromones are highly regulated. They're used in biopesticides. You wouldn't be able to like moths and pigs. Yeah. You wouldn't be able to put them in the fragrance. If you're type, winks, you might have good luck wearing a pheromone. But any other any other type of creature you'd like to attract, I don't know that pheromones are going to. I agree with you about the the placebo effect though because I think that a lot of these should tend to be really woody or musky. And those are such large molecules. Yeah. That some people can smell them. Some people can't. and that mystery, I think, makes people feel like there's something magical happening. Totally. Okay, to sum it up, what would you recommend in lieu of if we weren't going to call things hormones anymore, would you break it up into multiple categories within that? Like, what would be your. I honestly have no idea. I thought about this. I thought about this and I think that whatever category it is, well, first of all, thinking about the categories, like the fragrance families, we've been using it. Using them for a long time. And maybe it's gone to the point where those categories, maybe it's not there yet, but I can definitely see that in 20 years, those categories might feel kind of forced in a way. All categories are. Yeah. are the official. And I think that maybe there has to be something else, but whatever the term is, I think it has to be instantly identifiable or instantly recognizable, you know. The thing about Gormann that also strikes me a little bit like is still playing into that idea of Western superiority, the superiority of France, French perfumery. But the irony with that too, I wish we had more time because I maybe need to do a part too. The irony of that too is that so many European brands getting into this Gormann trend now are creating Gormann notes of other cultures. You feel like the way that Mochi is trending right now, or Macha, or all of these notes that are of Asian origin that aren't particularly sweet, but it's like these are coming from American and European brands. So, I think that if we think about Macha getting Macha right now, it's so incredibly trendy. Yeah. like poor Macha farmers who cannot keep up with the demand for Macha. I feel that for something like that, if you're talking about authenticity, which experience are you deeming to be the most authentic? Are you deeming this traditional idea of Macha tea ceremony must be centered in Japan must have a view of the tea plantation fields behind you? Is that any more less authentic than the perfumer who's trying to capture that moment of the super hot New York City summer when you're sitting outside with all of your friends drinking and ice cold Macha drink that has a giant amount of foam on top and you're just having fun? Is there a way to capture that vibe in a bottle and have that be authentic even though you're not using Macha in a traditional way? Right. It's like a third culture fragrance or something. It's like it is somebody's authentic experience. It's exactly. It's just not the origin of the thing. Exactly. You know, and I think this is a good, usually I don't end on like a question to the audience, but what are you listening? What do you think about this? Because I think it's a really interesting conversation of like when does it cross a line and when is it respectful and when is it something else entirely and like how do we continue to explore interesting notes and really good smells when they're part of our culture, when they're not part of our culture, when they've become part of our culture because we've acknowledged that we are consuming up somebody else's culture. You know, there's a lot of layers to it. Okay, Daisy, we have one final segment. It is a rapid-fire sensation game. What's that smell? You know it. Let's go. Okay. What's that smell? Daisy, what is the smell of New York City? Garbage. Garbage. Garbage. Okay. What is the smell of Indiana? Pesticide. Okay. Sounds like you have fond memories. What is the smell of the new school? Industrial cleaner. What is the smell of love? Warm cereal. What is the smell of your childhood bedroom? Rice. And what is the smell of Daisy Bo? It probably smells like my home, which is the Frederick Mall rubber incense Sandu-san. Amazing. Daisy, this has been such an amazing conversation genuinely a time where I'm like, I wish we had three minutes more. Fortunately don't, but I loved chatting with you. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much. Yeah. For people listening who are interested in signing up for your class, where can they do that, where can they follow you? They can go directly on the Fregorance Alliance Network website. I'll give that to you. And then my teaching low, the super heavy, the semester. So I won't be there more often until the spring, but the wide-two classes coming up. Then there will also be a class in the late spring, early summer on Dupes. Awesome. Okay. And your social media, Fregorance. It is J-E, underscore, sui, sui, underscore, daisy, b. Just free daisy, b, that's it. Okay. Daisy, thank you so much. Thank you. This podcast was edited by Joly and Ardo. Music is by Max Vernon and illustrations are by Israel Rodriguez. (upbeat music)