D is for Design Thinking

[Music] Hey are you curious about Design Thinking but don't know where to start? Then you're in the right place. Welcome to Beginners Guide to Design Thinking and A to Z. A year-long series of biteside, real life examples, do's and don'ts, tried and tested techniques to get you started. I'm Tracy, a former design engineer, a term mentor and coach that uses design thinking to help people live their life with purpose. And I'm Lucy, a workshop facilitator and business trainer who uses design thinking to help organisations make better decisions whilst finding different ways of working that support their innovation, sustainability and growth. We are two northern lasses with a passion for design thinking, for your business, your projects and for your life. So let's get creative without messing up your jumper with crayons. Seems obvious, but day is for design thinking. So Tracy, how did you first get into design thinking? So it's slightly ironic because my background is design engineering, but I didn't really properly hear the idea about design thinking specifically until about 15 years ago. And so I actually attended a talk by the king, Mr. Tim Brown himself, who's one of the founders of ideal, which we're going to talk about in a little bit more detail later. And basically it was, I was with some of my colleagues, some of my design consultancy colleagues. And so I was surrounded by designers. And we went to see it up by Tim Brown. And so from then on, I was very aware of, I was more aware of design thinking. I was more aware about ideal, who's like this, like kind of mecca of innovation, like magical playgrounds. They are the Oracle. They really are. They really are wonderful. And I do think that they have, they've done a really good job of stealing the thunder, which is design thinking. But I sort of mentioned that it's slightly ironic because my background is design, but I'm because I'm a design engineer. The process and the teachings and the things that I had at university was more around, like the kind of technical aspects of things, so they kind of like the mechanical, like electrical and electronic production manufacturing, whereas there wasn't really a lot of emphasis about the design thinking and the kind of process for the innovation side, like the empathy. We had a bit of marketing, so that was going to brought in. But then we didn't really bridge that gap effectively enough. And so I think that design thinking is something that's more prevalent in the industrial design side of things because they're coming up with the solutions to begin with. But yeah, like as I mentioned, I feel like I do kind of like still the thunder, because if you were to, if you were to Google design thinking, I do is one of the things that come up the first. But actually when I kind of dug into this, a bit of research in preparation for this, actually design thinking goes back into the late 1950s. And basically it came, came about from this chap called John E. R. Nald in 1959, and he wrote a book called Creative Engineering. Now, like back in those days and the kind of the evolutions of like 1960s, basically like different creatives, engineers, industrial designers and architects were thinking a bit more about something which I found really fun to save, but like design early ways of thinking, which whenever I see it written and when I want to say I want to say it with design early ways of thinking, like a kind of puzzle. A little bit, but basically what was really interesting was like back in those days that people were really properly thinking about the creative process and how designers and creatives really think. And like, you know, kind of over the evolution from 1960s now to now, there's definitely been different kind of ways, different directions, I guess. So it wasn't until like the 1990s that we started to think more about kind of like human centered design, which we'll talk about more definitely because that's a bit quite exciting. And then after that you've got into the early 2000s, which is more about kind of like systems design and then kind of obviously product design was always there, but then like more recently it's about kind of like life design. But basically like design thinking not only is it designally ways of thinking, but it's also just like it's like a non-linear iterative process to develop an idea. What comes up for you Lucy when you think of design thinking? Design thinking for me, you've already covered I think ideal are kind of the mecha, they are the auricle, they are the center of everything. I did a bit of digging around this because I haven't had the privilege, shall we say, of attending a talk by Tim Rowe by David Kelly by the original idea guys. So kind of bowing down to you here, but I did a little bit of sort of scooping around things. And in actual fact, I'm going to read this from the screen. So they did actually stay at on their website that they don't take credit for inventing design thinking, but took up the phrase design thinking to describe the elements of their work practices that they found most learnable and teachable. And I think that's interesting because then they actually stayed the empathy, optimism, iteration and creative confidence, experimentation, and an embrace of ambiguity and failure. And I think for me that kind of embodies everything that I believe design thinking to be about. And it's very much a mindset as much as a process of tools. I don't obviously have your project design and development background. I come from this from a specifically for smaller businesses. So for me that empathy side and that sort of understanding and then certainly that ability to search the failure very early on. And I think that is a big thing and is a big part of this. So my kind of links, if you like, with some of the big names and the big the heart hitters. So we say the big hitters within the design thinking world are more recent. So the very much about the D-Skill, they're about, absolutely, they're about Patrick Link, you know, and then everybody goes back to ideal. You know, you can't sort of ignore what what David Kelly has done and created there and obviously he is then responsible for the D-Skill, the design school at Stanford. But that is where, you know, when you said about the human centered part of it. That is is is where that sets my fire, you know, the fire in the light. It's about how we interact with people and how we sort of as businesses and as human beings interact with each other. And that's why it was great for me. I think there was a book. I can't see. I remember it was this year or last year by the D-Skill that was very much about designing for belonging. That inclusion to communities and things. So we really do between the two of us have kind of both answer for that. It's better and better. But obviously now you've taken it from product design. Into life design. And I know that the D-Skill has quite a big influence and some effect on you. What was that jump like? I kind of have. I'm sorry, I was to have completely. You're there, but you know, from sort of having that initial. The sort of interaction with should we call it an interaction we're going to call an interaction with sort of one of the heads of idea that that meeting. Did you ever sink at that talk rather did you ever think that you would now be using design thinking in the way you are doing. Because we're talking about an evolution and for me you have this amazing evolution that's being laid out in front of you. Yeah, I think a short answer is no. Did I think that I would go there? The answer is no, but I think that I'm the kind of strong memory that I have of that talk. What was also interesting was one of my colleagues that I worked with at the time, new 10 brown personally. So he was, yeah, I know right. And so, you know, I didn't get to like properly rub shoulders with them, but it's that's like my kind of two degrees of separation. It's like well, yeah. So basically what I thought was really amazing is so I think by that time it was like late 2000s, maybe 2008, 2009. You know, I'd already been working as a design engineer for like four or five years by that point, and full time design engineer. And you know, you're, yes, you are designing products which are for something. There are four people, they serve a purpose, but generally what I found with the stuff that I do was doing. It was just so much deeper. And the word I'm thinking is just like humanity was just like was just something that they were doing. They were, they developed this product. I'm pretty sure Bono was involved at one point, but like basically they were developed. It was always that. So, but it was basically like a kind of I think it was like an action aid. or something that was like an app. And this was the first time I had heard something like this, it happens all the time now. But basically it was an app that say you were spending $2.99 in a shop, then you had a credit card that was connected with action aid. And then it basically, it would automatically, any kind of pennies that was like to round it up to the nearest pound would be sent to action aid. Basically, it was just like lots and lots of little pennies here and there. And this was the first time I had heard of something like this. And for me, I just was like, wow, that's just, it just really took me a back of how simple it was, but so thoughtful and just low impact to the person as well. And so for me, it really, it took product design to a new level, which I look at ideal, like they're kind of like the gods, like this magical place. - I'm not sure how, for anyone who's listening just to the audio, we can actually kind of describe our face. (laughing) Sometimes we talk about idea on sort of quite how much on a pedestal that, you know, they think it's really pretty, because we've got a constant design thinking. - Yeah, I guess like to describe for our listeners, basically there's a lot of kind of like slightly praising type kind of like faces and if I had to describe, how I'm sort of looking at the moment I would describe it as, oh, like that's so offensively. - Is this celestial? (laughing) - Oh, celestial, I think it's celestial. Thank you so much for that. (laughing) So yeah, so I think that it just really, what I guess it planted the seed on was the real positive and the additional things that design thinking can really give and like, what designing could do. It definitely took me a lot longer to kind of make that connection of like what it takes or what it would be like to design a life, basically, but it's just like, it's something very beautiful and magical and celestial in itself that it feels like such a gift, basically. And you know, like the key, as you mentioned before, like you're the number one key is empathizing. And you know, we will dive into another episode where we're talking about the key stages where we go into this a bit more detail and I can talk about how I've layered that in with my coaching and a bit more detail, but yeah, it was definitely a big jump. I don't know how I could have either have accelerated that, but I think for me at that point, you know, what ideal was doing just seemed to be, it was a disconnect for me because I knew products. That was what I was doing, I was developing products. And this was, yes, it was a type of product but it was maybe like a digital product or a service or something. So it just felt like a bit of a disconnect. So it wasn't until like much later, which when I read the book which I've talked about before already, the designing your life book written by two guys from the design school. And I really love what they've done. And I really love the fact that they're continuing to develop that basically. But you know, it really is about like helping you question yourself, basically. It also introduces, as you sort of mentioned before as well, it's changing the mindset, which makes it more acceptable to fail basically or like, no, I wonder we phrase that. It's not about being acceptable to fail. It's like looking at failure in a completely different way. It's a complete reframe, isn't it? And I know people are going to get sick of hearing that this from was probably, but it's about that whole fail fast, fail forward, but weren't fast, learn forward. And everything you learn from those failings, as lessons, and use them as you move forward, whatever else you do. And I think the beauty part of it, you've sort of mentioned like the simplicity and the mindset, is that when you think that this whole connection that design thinking now allows us to have between that grid, it feels that gray area, doesn't it, that void between a product or a service and the actual end user. And if you think you've got empathise, you've got to find, you've got idea, you've got approach time, you've got test, it's five steps that fill out a void and there's such easy steps. There's nothing that is just down to having to have a design engineering background or having to have masters in, I don't know, a quirky physics and applied maths and all the other kind of science-y type things. It's very much around, as you said, one's humanity, and around how people will, how do you understand what's going on, how to observe what's going on, how we use them to finding what your point of view is. And then, OK, let's just come up with the ideas. Let's just try the wild, the wicked, the crazy ideas, and let's just approach type and test them. And you can't really take a step back and make that any more simplistic than it actually is, I don't think. And that to me is where the beauty part lies in it and what ideal brought to it. Yeah, yeah. Why I was just thinking there as well is that it is really simple. But one thing that I'm definitely aware of now, like coming through the design engineering side and knowing the process to develop products, I can tell when I see I have a product or I'm interacting with something and design thinking hasn't been done to develop that product. You can-- because we've got it to this point where it's like, because it is human-centered, and it is, as you say, it's about the end user. I really notice it when it's gone. And I get really angry about it, actually. I get really frustrated because I know exactly how much it costs. I know how much time it takes. I know all the different steps. And then when you've got something, you try to interact with it. And it's difficult for you to interact with it. It frustrates me. But so what you think that just sort of shows is something that they've gone straight to wanting to find a solution rather than actually considering the human or whatever, or whoever, the end user might be. It's-- I think we are preconditioned. And I'm kind of to give people a little bit. It doesn't know you may. But I can kind of forgive people and feel a bit because we go straight to wanting to help and wanting a solution. And here's what I would do. Right, let's get on and do it. We sync quite doing the best for people, but actually taking that time to strip that back. And so what I think a solution is, is not necessarily what somebody else thinks a solution is. What somebody else even says they want us a solution. It's not necessarily the solution they're going to use. Exactly. It's not. It's the defining. It is. It's kind of like that almost don't in my-- sort of for my clients, my clients. I'm really sort of saying to them, listen to your customers, but don't listen to your customers. You know? It's like this double-edged sword, because they will tell you what they want is one thing, but how they actually interact and use a product or service is completely different. Yes, totally. And I think there's-- there might be a lack of awareness as well. From the customer about the way they potentially interact with an object, they probably don't actually have their awareness of it, but it's all incredibly intuitive instead. And so that's where the magic of the empathize comes in, and also the observation side of things as well. So I think that-- yeah, as you say, don't listen to your customers, because they're just saying that this is what I want, but that might not necessarily be about how they are using it. And I know we'll discuss tools and techniques and things in future episodes, but it is very much isn't it around then sort of divorcing-- divorcing the alcohol, marry the process. If you forget about what you think you want to achieve, and just start interacting in this kind of process and get the mindset right. And really, then that is where the beauty part-- that's where the magic is. And there are so many tools when you say about how other use it is it more intuitive, asking why all the time, these are annoying trials. Design thinking is just an annoying child that is going to come to you. Why? Why? Why? If someone with great technological ability is going to go back and just make some kind of meme out of me going, why? Why? Why? But that is essentially-- if you're going to sum it up, design thinking is that annoying child does not stop asking why? Yeah, I totally agree. We need to make that gif later. I was quite curious. You mentioned some of the authors, the more recent authors that have come out guessing the last 10 to 15 years, maybe 10 years. What has been the key takeaways for you coming out of reading those books? Think definitely, they've kind of started very much more around product moved into service. And now they're very much moving into small business and ecosystems. And that sort of innovation side of things, they're very much saying that you can innovate using this in any sector across any field that you might work in. And they've become really, really good at giving you tools, showing you how it can be done, providing of anecdotal evidence and such like and for me. as you know because I don't know how many times people will probably get sick of me mentioning his name but the person who is kind of leading the field in this at the moment is Michael Durek and I know that we're going to have Michael on a future podcast episode. I'm Michael Eric, I'm a god. When I go, I'll select you. But I think that they are now applying it and showing people how to apply it because it feels a little bit to me as though I do do some amazing work with the projects and things they work with and then they do a lot of talking about design thinking. But it seems to me as though the way I've learned about it is by doing and by applying it. Not that somebody talking about it to me. And I think that that's what Michael Durek passionately, Larry Leifert, you know any of the examples of two books, the whole lot. That is what they do well. Yeah, no, I think that's the last year, even your laptop. So I know you agree with me. But you know, I'm super excited to get Michael Eric on the show. And yeah, so I have two of his books. Like I've got the design thinking toolkit and I also have the Leif design book by his as well. So the his latest one is the small business one, right? He's got the small business growth just out, which is all about small business growth and ecosystem and how that fits. And then October 2023, there will be a new one which is design thinking for innovation growth and metrics. It's very much around the data and such like which I'm a bit of a data geek, so I'm quite excited about what's coming out already. But I think it's the application is where that new group of people who are leading the focus and you'll be blazing the trail basically around design thinking. That is where they're heading is showing people how to apply it. Not just talk about it, give them the tools. And I would like to think that as people listen to various episodes of the podcast, that is at least what they can see and hear us doing so that they do get some tools, some resources that they can take away and that they can use as they need to. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think you're right in terms of the design thinking it's more about the practical application side of things and I totally agree. I think it is practical application and it does take time to get into the swing or I guess to I think everybody's got their go-to techniques which they've leaned to and I think that there's an absolute swath of different tools and techniques that you can use and we're covering a lot of them in this podcast. But I think that everybody's going to have their go-to, everybody's going to have something which works basically for them, for their setup, for the resources that they have and for the problems that they solve. Yeah. And so yeah, I think that it's because I was doing a bit of a investigation, I thought the toolkit book just to kind of look into more of the techniques which could work best for me as a coach basically. And so even then, you know, I'm kind of picking and choosing certain things and we can talk about that in another episode and then we'll also have a good old chat with Michael Erick on your social. But where do you see design thinking going? Would it be really cliched to say that I think the possibilities are endless with it? Yeah. I don't know what it would be. Well, that's kind of the way I feed at the moment. You know, there's a few people out there who were starting to say, oh, it's great, but it has its limitations. It's great, but you do all of this work and then what happens next. And I do want to actually think that's about a limitation with design thinking, I think that's about a limitation with whoever is facilitating that design thinking process for you. So I do think that, you know, as we've seen by the, you know, the way that books have gone from being product based and science based, right the way through to small business based and then, you know, looking at ecosystems and things, I do think that you can almost plot that development. Yeah. So I do think that it's something that has commerce changes, as humanity changes, you know, that will move with it. And I think it's going to be a really useful tool that I'm seeing more people use when we're talking about things be more reconfriendly about circular economies and that kind of thing. I think it's an of all fits and it's that big piece. And the word you used to make just sums up the episode is humanity. Yeah. Yeah. That big piece, as long as humanity is there, design thinking will be there. I think you're on the line. I think also as well because like, because, you know, even just talking about the history of design thinking that it started off with like the creative industries and architecture and it's moved into human design and human design and system design and obviously small business and stuff. I feel like as well that the more the more that we bring in the more tools that are going to come out basically the more that's going to evolve because I guess that, you know, we're going to be in this kind of perpetual state of evolution. So basically design thinking is going to continue to evolve as well. So I can't I'm with you on that about the possibilities. So it's still like a relatively young tool, I guess, and where it's it's changing. It seems to have accelerated in the last 10 years, I would say. Yeah, because it's an application has definitely kind of changed. So I expect to see more awareness of it and we hope obviously using this podcast that they were going to spread awareness and joy. Everybody needs to use design thinking. So I think that it's going to continue to grow and continue to like new processes and things are going to come through. And I'll be really interested in the next episode. We're going to be chatting with Ed Watson. Yep. And I think Ed has been involved in design thinking for several decades now and I think it will be really, really interesting as a follow from this to see how he sees it. The changes have already happened. Yeah. And what you see he he sees it going as well. So please do join us for the next episode, which obviously is e for Ed Watson. Now, if you enjoy the episode, if you have any comments or questions, please do leave them on the in the YouTube comments. Please do follow us across the usual podcast channels. And you can look myself Lucy Anderson and Tracy Tracy Sharp up on LinkedIn. It should just always. Also good thing. Yes, we also have an Amazon associates as well for anything that we've mentioned today. And also like your beginner's guides to designing your own workshop as well. We'll have all the all the bits and bobs that they require for there on our Amazon associates. So please look out for the links on there too. And we'll see you in our next episode.