Current State of the Sports Industry with AJ Maestas, Founder of Navigate Research

(upbeat music) Welcome to today's episode on Life in the Front Office. I'm your host, Jay Kursman. And I've got my co-host, Andy Dullich with me. And today's guest in AJ, Myestus, founder and CEO of Navigate Research. Really excited to talk to AJ today about one, his story on how Navigate became Navigate Research. And two, what are some of the lessons he's kind of learned along the way? Not only being an entrepreneur, but in the landscape of the sports industry. AJ, welcome to the podcast. - Well, thank you. (upbeat music) - If you're having new Jay, glad to be here. And Andy, glad to share the stage with you. - Always happy, but the spotlight is on you, AJ. So how did you navigate your way to Navigate? - Oh, thank you. What the audience doesn't know is that he gets $20 every time he says Navigate. So thank you, Andy, and that's very good. Very good. It was a founding of business is not easy. And it's not for the faint apart. I wouldn't recommend it unless you truly are passionate and committed to the subject. And it is an area of some skill. You know, there's that business adage that says, you know, find something you could be the best in the world at and stick to that. So anyway, it was a marriage of an application and a location. So I had a skill set that was always differentiating me at work by being, you know, on the analytic side of the equation. And then, yeah, the opportunity struck the timing was right. It was in 2006. I felt like the window was gonna close as far as the need for quality research and insights and what was being provided. So yeah, I got really lucky because I like this stuff. It's a passion and I love it. And it happened to also be a skill set. So I can't really say that this would have all happened if I was in any other segment of sports. - And as you talk about stuff, there's, I was in the audience yesterday at the Stanford Sports Innovation Conference, which I know you've been at. And there's a lot of scary smart people talking about the current and future world. And the word analytics and metrics came up more than one time yesterday. And you were sort of there before the tidal wave had hit the shore of sports and analytics and metrics. How, in terms of your view, and you have a world view, 'cause you have navigated around the world, it's become a major factor in every sector of the business. How did that really happen? And you've seen it happen right before your eyes. - Well, I wish that I could say we had some role in that rising tide, but I think this was happening to the whole business world. And it was just the natural and normal delayed effect in sports. We tend to lag a little bit, right? Slightly more competitive, market out there in other industries. So I think the return on investment that those get from making smarter decisions, doing their homework, better understanding and listening to their customer, just that the yield and results are so strong that it was inevitable. What's stranger to me isn't that it's now a hot topic with conferences like that at Stanford and MIT and all those things. What's strange to me is that it was non-existent, or at least 20 years ago. - And that brings to the point having been involved in the business a bit longer than 20 years. Now that information, Jake has heard this before, is stored in the cloud, right? I keep looking for which cloud that is, but somebody will explain that to me off air. But it started with a three by five card. It then went to computer printouts. It then went to clouds. But the information itself is that's the important point. There's storehouses of information, but you are called in to deal with real businesses. Do they see using that to really define their current business or really get aggressive about the people that aren't showing up at their places of business in any way, shape, or form? - How many years of experience Andy just enlighten me just so if I know it's more than 20? - 1971, not 1871, 1971, 1971. - That's so it helps 76ers NBA. - Amazing, I had to make you do that. You just threw an all you about there. Thank you, there is no short. And if I'm a young person in my career and Andy and my skills align with being able to synthesize information, tons of data and put it together into a story. If I am someone who is analytically strong and I'm wondering how I go beyond just that skill set into an actual career where I am more valuable for each hour I put into something, the answer is essentially connecting those dots and telling a story for your client. So you'll laugh at this and you should have every right to and enjoy yourself while doing it. But we kind of fancy ourselves as the McKinsey of sport because we don't see consultants out there able to both get reliable quality data, something that is unbiased and real. And being able to turn that into a recommendation into something actionable for a business person to win a fan or sell a ticket or close a sponsorship deal or whatever it might be. So yeah, I would say that everybody knows about the big data thing, what is so rare and so difficult to find is someone who can synthesize that information and tell a compelling story with it. That is beneficial to your client. It's beneficial to your boss or your organization. - Either directly or in some sort of amorphous form, are there any leaders in the industry that you look at that are using this big data analytics metrics the digitizing of the world and nanosecond attention span? Who do you think is best and show? And if it's not a particular name, then what are they doing with it? - Well, you know, to be honest, the people that are exceptional at it aren't in sports. They're in the Bay Area with you and me and they're working in a tech company and they're getting down into passive observation of what people do online on apps, what videos. And not only are they refining how to best serve that customer, but even artificial intelligence is taking it a step beyond us as people. But sports teams, there are a number out there that are really smart. Maybe sports entertainment has always been smart and done great business. I think Madison Square Garden deserves credit for having a 10 plus person research and analytics team 10 years ago. And being way ahead of the curve, you mentioned the Sixers. And where your career started in 1931, there are some special and talented people at the Sixers, at the college level, something that almost every team has now, but very few universities do. There's a guy there who is doing everything from, you know, on field performance stuff to the business side combing all over the department like an internal consultant. So they're out there. There are people who are doing an excellent job at clubs. You know, you mentioned the, before we jumped on our call, we were chatting a little bit about MLS. The Seattle Sounders have this sort of unquenchable thirst for being better growing, learning, and knowing more. You know, we're lucky to work with Michael Shockley and Adrian Hannah was the owner there. They've done something that's more impressive than anyone I can think of right now at the top of my head, which is launch an organization with excellence and then keep maintaining it and reinventing, right? It's easy to be the shiny new toy in a more mature MLS, but they were the original shell and they stay there. - As you've traveled the world, and we tend to be somewhat insular, Jake, I think you'll agree in terms of our guests who are working at North American sports properties, but you've had a chance to be in a lot of different places. What do you see sort of as the constants, no matter whether it's in Australia, or Europe, or South America, or North America, to delivering a high quality product in the world of sports, and what are sort of the barriers to entry? - For those who actually put the product on the field, for you're working at a team, you're saying essentially. - Mm-hmm, yeah, or a big event, something that needs people coming through a turnstile and accessing an account to pay for it. - I feel bad being contrarian, but I really don't think we do that great of a job, and I'm not trying to insult our entire industry. one fell swoop, but you know the product is something that has people lining up and putting up with bad food and bad customer service and lines at every turn and traffic and transit and barking and whatever you so generically speaking of course we do a good job but if you compare us to an airport you know a municipality that no one looks forward to and no one considers you know an excellent place as far as customer service you know they have curbside check-in and express lanes and global entry and TSA pre-check and first class lanes and you get the gist of it you know the entering a secure airport is I think put on a better effort than even entering our stadiums where people are just dying to do so but so what do I think I think we could be a lot better at understanding our customer and understanding the real wants and needs I think customer service could be a lot stronger I think I hate to be so critical about it but I do think we're good at chasing dollars you know when we see an opportunity whether you see what's happened the last decade with premium seats and experiences I'll have you but I don't know if we have a great grasp of the pathway to fandom and what is the tribal and this gets into this gets into like basically behavior economics and the social sciences this isn't just hard observational facts what makes someone be a fan what is that connectivity that the relationships the community an example would be that you know in the US where we I think are more advanced than the rest of the world on average in the business of sports you don't see us have great membership groups for our clubs you know there aren't these passionate proud multi-generational members of that club and switching is a lot easier the challenge stands for the other part of your question there is incredible competition for leisure time and we are not winning that battle as an industry versus social media and all that technology I talked about in your backyard yeah I mean to that to that point Jake I'll let you jump in but I think about you know you're in a fan zone of the EPL and can you just imagine you know somebody saying excuse me sir would you please sit down you know I'm in the middle of a conference call here on my cell phone and I really can't hear well so would you bloke sit down so I can complete this conference call right right probably not sorry Jake no AJ in terms of you know where you guys see opportunities in the sports industry and as as the industry does continue to change and try and quote unquote catch up to the rest of the you know the tech world and yeah other companies that are advancing when you deal with clients and organizations and teams and the complexity of the data and the research that you guys have what are some of the things that people can do to sharpen their skill sets or their tools to better understand you know the information and how to actually apply it and utilize it you know data data right but if you don't understand what it what it means or like you're saying what story it can tell and how to actually then turn the story into dollars right like you were talking about what what what are you seeing out there oh you know that's tough I I hate to say this because I went and got my sports ambiators on a state and and and I love these sports programs and I've taught them for a number years including Andy's home of water Ohio University you're both and Jake and Jake go go about water out of a moder yes and Jake that's right I mean there's there's so many benefits to those programs and the network and the relationships but I don't uh speaking specifically about analytics I don't know if it's a place where you go to get a formal education in that um but the hard part is there's so few maybe why I struggled you know to come up with examples of those who are really advanced in these ways you know where you go learn on the job and you know there is a hate to even say art and science to it because that's uh that would drive some people on my team not to hear me say that they everything could be put to science is that like a student athlete yeah I remember a time when I was an athlete athlete um that one that only lasted a semester before I was going to be ineligible um the uh yeah exactly um yeah the the I think practical real experience I'm working with it and I would say look to mentorship Andy's been an unbelievable mentor to me and is to another member of our team uh and navigate you know go reach out to those that have that contextual experience and that history and so if you're specifically talking about analytics and you're talking about growing your career I'd put yourself in a progressive team that wants to learn and grow there's nothing you can do if they don't take the information and actually want to change with it and I would find yourself an excellent boss who's interested in helping you grow and learn and exposing you to things um that would be my investment uh in an education I hate to say on the job training but um but once you're in that inner circle you can pick up the phone as I have the good fortune of being able to do and call all of these amazing thought leaders you know who've been there and done that and so you learned from this little ecosystem so get your foot in the door with the right boss and the right organization which and then go Jake go and then and then within the you know the organizations themselves right they've got their cultures in terms of how they work right whether it's with data or based on you know opinions and experience um what have you noticed in terms of the the cultures within the organization teams leagues etc where you've got to embrace the data right or don't embrace it at all yeah it's kind of scary where we still are um I mean the there are obviously exceptional people more fortunate to work with many of them um but um our biggest challenge in in finding that fit with the right client on the right thing is an organization that actually really wants to know and wants on a feedback I would say like the vendors in the space of providing our type of services I would estimate half of them are in the justification business you know they're in the you know it's just it's just not real high quality stuff but instead of looking at it as a negative because I think sometimes our team gets frustrated with stuff they see out there um that's an opportunity so if you are listening to this and you actually sign up to list your podcasts with someone from a company called Navigate Research you probably have some passion and interest in these areas and I would say that's an opportunity for you and your career or as an entrepreneur you know because there's plenty of room to do it better so again I don't want to throw the whole industry under the bus but um we we have way more opportunity to be better and do more than we have um you know sort of competition for excellence and and what we're talking about right here there there are jobs being created every day and and and they're justified in doing so yeah one of the challenges that I see in a lot of organizational structure is the ongoing siloing of different parts of a team or an organization and because the level of uh specificity is increasing and you have to have knowledge I totally embrace that to the point that people stop talking to each other because they're the ad people they're the finance people they're the player development people and when you think about it it's a team oriented business that we're in to try to create the best athletes in the world at whatever level to play great um have fun have the fans enjoy themselves and then hopefully win championships as you're looking at the current wave of specialization do you see too much siloing and not enough teamwork in the places that you're talking to yeah no question I mean if you look at our industry there's a bunch of group think and there's a lot of this is the way we've always done it and and there's a lot of times you look around the senior executive office and you and he have made wonderful efforts with what you do with the diversity group at the national sportsroom every year among other things you do but but how many um white men of your generation are taking the steps you are to to get our industry to that place those sea sweets and those ownership groups don't reflect the US population and they are on the opposite end of the spectrum of the trends that will define future fans we just released this Gen Z study I think half of it is probably would be new information if an owner sit down and walk through it I mean as in shockingly new not like five percent different than they expected but um but that's the reality of the ultimate decision maker um it is uh disappointing that our industry is so poorly represented by diversity when you look at the meritocracy that is the game that is played on the field the court the ice the the pitch you know that is our product and and uh and then it's you know title nine is basically 50 years old and where is the representation of women and leadership and it's um it's a problem if I could make an argument for the for the subject of what navigate gets to do one of the most beautiful things about our work is the diversity I mean we will be working on a team move to a new city and then suddenly you'll slip over here to another assignment it'll be a uh television media deal and then over here it's a rebranding of a team and then it'll be a naming rights deal of a new stadium that's been go the diversity of that work builds that range of skills that's rare to get to exercise anymore in sport. And I think that's true if you are on the team side as well. You don't have to be a consultant like navigate. If you are great at analytics, the executive team, as they build trust for you, would call you in on a range of different decisions. And in your 20s and 30s, you could have exposure to people who would take 20 more years to be sitting in a meeting with if you are giving them critical info. You've got to choose the right organization. Of course, you need leaders who want to know what they don't know and want someone to round out and cover for the areas they don't know. And that doesn't always exist. But yeah, I would probably name that as the number one problem in our industries lagging as I'm claiming other industries, not just in analytics and research and insights just across the board in business practices. AJ, I'll piggy off with Andy's thought in terms of, you know, the way organizations are structured, but also the way in which, you know, the generations that are coming are also changing in terms of how they work, why they want to work, their passions, they don't, you know, the way in which they want to try and move up, you know, as fast as possible, et cetera. Some don't want bosses, right? The entrepreneur thought is probably more than it ever has been potentially. So let's rewind real quick back to the beginning of the episode where you found it navigate and you kind of broke off on your own. Where do you see that going in terms of, you know, the lessons that you learned, you know, founding the company and building it, but also those who are out there who maybe have pioneers of experience in the industry, but then they go and break off and do something on their own. Where do you see those trends going? Well, I can, I'm not the world's greatest expert on Gen Z, but I can tell you from this research that we just did and I could connect you with the ladies on our team that that led this work. The next generation who's themselves is working for themselves more than any generation in the past, even at equivalent age and time and whatever you, but I don't think that's a bad thing. The worst case scenario in my mind, people overestimate the risk in starting a business. I did myself. The worst case scenario is an accelerated learning curve and you really don't make that much earlier career in sports anyway. So really, what's the downside? And it could work out like it did for me and it's a dream life. I love who I work with and what I get to do every day. But yeah, I think entrepreneurship's part of the, it's part of the solution. There's no, there's no question. I think millennials were the first big step in demanding flexibility in prioritizing different things in life. I think Gen Z will take an equivalent step further in that direction. And if you want to employ these people, you know, Gen Z is turning 23, 24, 22, depending on, you know, which definition you believe in. Right now, so they're about to be not only the core sports fan move into that segment of being the core 18 to 34 year old sports fan, but that key generation of employees are recruiting and attracting and retaining. I mean, I know I learned a lot of what not to do and what to do having worked at prior places. And I tried to make unshaped our culture. I hope it doesn't sound like it's self-serving to say that we win this award every year for 101 best and brightest companies to work for the US and a bunch of other HR awards for being a friendly place to work. And I don't get all the credit for that by any means, but there's no doubt from the beginning we have no start time to our day, no end time, no geographic constraints and where someone works from unlimited holiday schedule. We forth holidays, all the major ones and and and all the minor ones and shut down for a couple weeks over the holidays. I'm just giving you a couple of examples of something we've been doing for 14 years, which I think is pretty important to attracting the kind of talent that we need and want. And I don't think you're going to find that at a team or any of the traditional organizations in sports. So we see it as a in here I am giving it away to the world, but we see it as a massive investment and advantage in who we are. Because in our world, you're nothing other than intellectual property and the talent and people you put in front of your clients. We think there's a reason we get to pick and choose who we work with. But yeah, it's not happening at the team is fast enough. In fact, it's kind of the opposite. It's pretty old school. I wanted to mention Navigate again so I could get my total up to $40 before we sign off on the call. I get paid in Bitcoin by Navigate and it's definitely interesting. Anyway, you talked about how organizations are growing and then Jake brought up the most important point, which is new audiences. And AJ, you didn't even know, but you created the life in the front office our first national promotion about a five minutes ago when you talked about Gen Z. We have been looking for what is the acceptable next realm after Gen Z. We've heard a number of kind of unacceptable answers. Gen alpha Gen Z plus one. None of that works for us in life in the front office. So we'll put you on the spot. We're looking for the licensing deal that we would happen to do with Navigate or anybody else to name that generation which exists today. Yeah, we use alpha to describe them. But the truth is if I were to say what do you do to think about these next generations, it's first of all 18 year, which is the typical definition of a generation is silly. I'm Gen X, but how radically different am I than someone who's older Gen X, that truth or that claim that I'm making right now, I think will be amplified with these next generations. Yeah, I refuse to buy alpha. Maybe, Jake, well, we can argue off. Welcome back, Andy. Yes, but alpha drove me completely off the podcast. As soon as I heard alpha, it's like, but that's yours. That's what you're using. Navigate. And that's sort of acceptable as you're talking to big brains around the world. They're buying into alpha. Yes. I think what I think what you might have missed was that defining a generation in 18 year spans is just not going to work in the future. And these things are arbitrary selections. It's kind of like a segmentation study where there's some absolute human choice. And are you draw the lines in a segment? And so, you know, what it's probably fair to call these definitions crap anyway. Yeah, they in you to the in you to row group, which right now is already applying to grad school, right? Playing on traveling teams. Yesterday, one of the speakers at this conference was saying, you know, look, let's look at five or 10 years. And I, you know, I just started laughing. Five or 10 years. Are you whacked? You know, why don't we look at things in five and 10 months? Don't talk to about five and 10 years. Get with it. Yeah. I mean, the rate of change of behavior, not not to get nerdy, but this is this applies to everybody, no matter what you do, even if you're not in sports and entertainment. The rate of change of behavior in consumption is is a double digit percent per year thing, as far as the stuff that really matters, like where you're spending your time. So, yeah, something projecting five years in the future would be a funny way to find out exactly how horrifically wrong you would be. Well, and in terms of that, and, you know, you think about like you were just saying, AJ, about how you spend your time, you know, we're all busy, right? Everyone's got this show, that show, you know, the other, the next best thing to do. When you think about how you spend your time trying to not only run your organization, but, you know, continue to get yourself better, what's, what's like the one or two things that keep you up at night? You know, it's always people-related stuff. And here's the good news, I sleep well at night, but if there was something that kept me out of the night, it would be people-related stuff. It's difficult to continue investing in your people in such a quickly changing environment, especially when you have limited budgets as we all do. Taking it down to the personal level, you know, I'm pretty committed to personal growth. It's a never ending investment, knowing that much of your audience is on the young side. You know, what would keep me up at night if I was one of your listeners would be really understanding and knowing myself and then growing myself as a person, not even a skill set specifically in a job. Yeah. I was reading a story today in a major national newspaper that has the name of the city in it, New York Times, and they were talking about the 2020 Olympics. So six months ago, right? Talk about keeping somebody up at night. You think anybody was saying? Oh, yeah. We got a global pandemic. I think we're going to have to completely do something that's never been done before with the Olympics. Now, let's go to work on that. People go, what are you thinking about? What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what do you mean? And now, I mean, listening to the IOC and the Japanese leaders, like, oh, you know, no, we're good. Like, no, you're not. You're not good. Boy, somebody's paddling really, really fast to try to to figure out because it's right in front of us. What are they gonna do? - If anybody could pull it off, it would be the Japanese. I was there for a couple of weeks in November. They are just, it's like German engineering combined. It's just, it's unbelievable. - Up at night, maybe that's the way to, we've gone, we've navigated the world with AJ Mayas. It's in a brilliant fashion. Navigating thing, there goes another 20. So, Jake, you want to bring us home? - Yeah, AJ, what, you know, you think back to, you know, your roles, before you founded Navigate and your time at the, in the Pac-12, you know, at UW and ASU. What's the one thing you wish you would have known then that you know now? - Boy, this is gonna sound cheesy, but again, knowing your audience is so young, I wish that I'd have just been more, like, willing and malleable to the reality of what's in front of me, just to not worry about it. And just to let it come to you, basically. I don't know how much in control of the whole thing we all are, and so if you just control yourself and do your best and contribute the rest sort of unfolds in front of you. So if I could give myself advice back then, it would be to not stress so much and not to worry so much, just do your best in the moment, live in the moment. I know that's a little off-target for a normal business conversation, but this next generation, you know, they wanna be the boss overnight, and they're dreaming of entrepreneurship and all these big things, and if there's anything, there's mostly beautiful things I see from these younger generations, but if there's anything that worries me, it's that they're, you know, making plans to be famous, Rich entrepreneur who conquers the world, and that is none of those things are super well-correlated with happiness. So yeah, I would know myself, learn myself better, I would been meditating and concentrating on happiness and being in the present moment. - Well, we are a stress-free podcast, so I will say, I definitely appreciate that, and thanks AJ for your time, really, really enjoyed listening and, you know, hearing about your journey and kind of the things that you're paying attention to, that quite frankly, we also pay attention to and think about. So thank you again for your time, and Andy, always a pleasure. - AJ, I'd have to say, Jake, and the audience, I've met a lot of people, but there's nobody more agile, nimble, and dynamic, and navigating the world that we live in. - Mr. AJ, my husband, so have a great one, AJ. - Thank you, Andy. I'll send you all of the money. Jake, you're awesome. - Thank you for having me. I look forward to seeing you both again soon. (upbeat music)