CULTS: The End of the Summer of Love: The Manson Family

Hi everyone, before today's episode, we want to tell you about What the Fact. It's a new show from Conor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, and Carter Roy from Murder, True Crime Stories. Every week they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Conor's infectious energy will make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on Earth. Follow What the Fact, wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact is. This is Crime House. Welcome to Crimes of Colts, a crime house original powered by Pave Studios, where your host, Karin Vien and Sabrina Deanna Roga. Every Tuesday, we're exploring a different corner of the True Crime universe, examining cases that left a permanent impact on society. This season, we're stepping into some of the world's most dangerous cults and the charismatic leaders who promised salvation. But instead, lead their followers to ruin. We're going to ask the chilling question of when does belief become control? And how can you tell the difference between faith and manipulation? Between hope and fear. If you're loving Crimes of, please follow, rate, and review as wherever you listen. It helps us build this community, and we love hearing from you. To get early access and add free listening, subscribe to the Crime House Plus community on Apple Podcasts. You can also catch us on YouTube where we include visuals that bring every case to life. Today we're covering Charles Manson, his cult known as the Manson Family, and the murders that stopped a generation in its tracks. If you're fan of True Crime, or even if you're not, you've heard the name Charles Manson. We've heard of the terrible crimes he committed, but the full story is more chilling than anything you could imagine. It's the early hours of August 9, 1969, and Los Angeles police officer Jerry DeRosa is one of the first responders to arrive at 10050 CLO Drive. This occluded home tucked behind an iron gate at the top of a winding road in Benedict's canyon. He doesn't know what he'll find, and it probably won't be good. The neighbor has heard screaming coming from the house, and it got called in as a possible homicide. And when Jerry pulls up the long driveway, the first thing his headlights catch is a body. Slumped in a car near the gate, the engine's still running. It's a young man. We can see he's been shot multiple times, and this man is not moving. Jerry radios it in as he approaches the house. The front door is slightly open, and as he gets closer, he sees it. A word written across the door, pig. It's written in blood. He pauses, studies himself. He knows that this is not going to be an ordinary crime scene, but he has a job to do. He takes a deep breath, he pushes the door open, and he steps inside. The living room is in chaos. There's furniture overturned, blood everywhere, and two bodies. A man and a woman both bound with white rope. But there are more. Outside on the lawn, officers find two more bodies, and it seems like they were trying to run, but they didn't make it far. As they take in this horrific crime scene, they realize that among the victims is a young actress, Sharon Tate, eight and a half months pregnant, brutally murdered. In total, six people, including an unborn child, are dead, and there's no clear motive. No sign of robbery, just violence. Passy, frenzied, brutal, like it was meant to be seen, meant to say something, but what? And more importantly, who would do something like this? It's so horrific. It's terrible. Yeah. And it's also the crime scene that I feel like most people think of when they hear Charles Manson or the Manson family, but what often gets lost is that this was not the only crime. There was more violence and more victims truly just one night after this crime at CLO Drive, there was another brutal set of murders in Los Angeles. And it took a really long time for the police to connect the two of them together, let alone connect them to Charles Manson and the Manson family. Today, we know the Manson murders as one of the most mainstream moments of that era. And when I was looking up at what else was happening around that time, we landed on the moon for the very first time, like literally a month before this, and then right after it was Woodstock. So you're framing what's happening in this time. It's pretty wild. We'll get into all the details about these crimes and the other ones that Manson committed. But first, let's talk about Charles Manson. And I do want to acknowledge that before we get into all the details, it's hard to validate a lot of this and about his upbringing as fact because good old Charles Manson, he was really good at lying. Lier, Lier, pants on fire. 100 percent. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, he's fun lies. He tried to control narratives. So we'll try to point out what was alleged by Manson and then what has been like verified as fact and shout out to some of our sources for today's episode. The book The Life and Times of Charles Manson, which was written by Jeff Gwynne and Chaos Charles Manson, the CIA, and the secret history of the '60s by Tom O'Neal. Charles Manson was born November 12, 1934 in Cincinnati, Ohio. His mother, Kathleen Maddox, was 16 years old when she got pregnant with him. And from the very beginning, there were some signs of instability within his life. She found out she was pregnant and Manson's father, who was a 23-year-old man who went by Colonel Scott, left saying that he was being called away on duty. Oh, how convenient. Even though despite his name, Colonel, he actually wasn't in the military at all. So this is just a total bogus lie. Yep. Another Lier, Lier, pants on fire. Yeah. Right? The apple doesn't fall. No. Kathleen never heard from Colonel Scott again. And she knew that she couldn't raise his baby on her own. So sometime before Charles was born, she ended up marrying this other guy named William Manson, which is why Charles's last name, Manson. But that's all William really gave to Charles. He really wasn't around much, and he and Kathleen actually divorced when Charles was just two years old, so he really wasn't a big part of his life at all. Yeah. On top of that, Kathleen was struggling with alcohol abuse, and most days she would leave Charles in like little tiny Charles with her mom so she could go drinking with her brother. And we also have to remember she was 16 when she got pregnant. She's also basically a child. So it's just clearly a lot of instability seen all together. Now when Charles was nearly five years old, Kathleen and her brother tried to rob a man that they had met at the bar. Their weapon of choice and sources vary a bit on this, but apparently it was either a ketchup bottle filled with salt or a Coca-Cola bottle as a weapon. Either way, not very effective. And Kathleen was arrested, she was convicted, and she was sentenced to five years in prison. So like, already, as you can imagine, it's not a great environment to grow up in. It was a little bit volatile or definitely a lot of volatile. It was unpredictable. And then after Kathleen's arrest, Charles was sent to live with his aunt and uncle in MacMacken, West Virginia, close to where Kathleen was incarcerated. But this environment that he was sent into was not much better because his aunt, uncle, were not exactly the warm, nurturing, come here, let's give you cuddles and kisses, types of people. They were very strict. And if Charles broke those rules, they enforced harsh punishment. Yeah. It's hard because he already is like getting shuffled around and everyone's so different in there. Again, hardship, their own personal hardship. There are a lot of people who've gone through hard things in their life and they don't become someone like Charles Manson. The majority of people. Yeah, actually. They're not excusing it, but it's just giving context. Charles was not much better at school either. He acted out a lot and became a problem. And then in 1942, when Charles was just eight years old, Kathleen was released. And he was thrilled. As you can imagine, any child would be so excited to finally be reunited with their mother. But this actually didn't go as we want. And things got even more complicated. Kathleen had a hard time staying on the straight and narrow. And this time, Charles started to follow her lead. So he stopped going to school altogether and started stealing from local shops. By the time he was 12, Kathleen herself was like, I can't manage this child. And so in 1947, she sent him to the Jibbo school for boys in Tara Hoat, Indiana. And within 10 months, Charles ran away. He tried to go back to his mother, but she turned him away. And then he fell into this pattern of getting sent to strict institutions and running away. And that like happened multiple times. And then by 1949, when Charles was 14, he was placed at the Indiana boys school in Plainfield. And according to Charles, he was actually assaulted by older boys at the school more than once. Yeah. So basically at this point in his life, he's like every institution, every authority figure, everyone is just betraying him, right? That would make sense as to why he's acting out. There's a lot that he's out of control and this is his like way of fighting back. In 1951, when Charles was 16, he and a couple other kids stole a car and ran away across state lines, which I'm not condoning doing any of that. But if you cross the state lines, it becomes much more serious. - Yeah. - So this got him in trouble with the feds, the federal authorities. - Yeah, when you cross state lines, the feds get involved. - Yeah, it's no longer a state crime. And this is how he got sent to the federal facility, the Natural Bridge Honor Camp in Virginia. And do you think that this was the time that he finally gets to reform? - I think we can all agree, based on what we know about Charles Manson, absolutely not. - In January of 1952, Charles Manson was caught sexually assaulting another boy while holding a knife to that boy's throat. And this got him sent to a high security reform institution. And it is here that he decided that he would finally turn things around in his life. And he appeared to be very compliant. And based on this, he was released for good behavior in 1954. Charles went back to Macmechan, he got a job, and then that's when he met a girl, Rosalie Willis. They got married on January 13th, 1955. And before long, they were expecting their first child together. - And Charles tried to support this young family, but quickly reverted back to stealing cars. And you would think maybe he would learn not to move them across state lines, but no, he would sell them across state lines. And it brought in money, but it was not nearly enough. And it's not like the most dependable job. And so Charles was getting tired of West Virginia and decided he wanted to go to California, where his mom Kathleen was living, and he figured he can move in with her. So he stole another car, and he and Rosalie headed to LA driving across multiple state lines. But now they're living in LA, they're living life, but Charles was driving the stolen car, and a police officer actually ran his plates, discovered that I was stolen, and they were looking for Charles. Charles knew that he had messed up, that he knew they were after him, so he ends up fleeing with Rosalie, his wife, and end up in Indianapolis, where is pregnant wife? - His pregnant wife, yeah. - You imagine the stress on her and her pregnancy? - Right. They end up in Indianapolis, where Rosalie gave birth to their son, Charles Jr. on April 10th, 1956. Four days later, police tracked 21-year-old Charles down and bring him back to California, and he ends up with a three-year sentence, and serves it at Terminal Island Penitentiary. And this is where you can really see like the next steps with the evolution of Charles Manson take place. About a year into a sentence, Rosalie stops visiting, and she ends up divorcing him for another man. So they were officially divorced in 1958, which as you can imagine, no one's gonna be a fan of that, but Charles was not happy about it, and he tried to get his mind off of his heartbreak. He could have picked up a hobby, knitting, reading books, education of some kind. He started making friends with a particular group of inmates who had gotten convicted for pimping, and they start telling him all these stories about how they recruited young vulnerable women, and like boasted and bragged about how they would control these women by separating them from their families, and they used a mixture of isolation, manipulation, love, bombing, and fear. And most people like us would find that absolutely horrifying, but here's Charles, whose wife had just left him, and he likes this idea of like, oh, how do I manipulate someone? - How do I make someone say with me forever? - And never abandon me. - Right. Yeah. - You know what else? I have a problem with when it comes to colds, not only is LA kind of a common theme with a lot of them, when it comes to recruiting people, but I feel like a lot of the idea swapping is happening in jail. - The fair. - I don't know how to stop it. - I mean, it's just a thought, but you're putting pieces together. Talk about something else. - Yeah. - And stop that. - Yeah. - All the people listening in jail. - Now he's like learning this from these people, and he's like, okay, well, I like this. I find this fascinating, and maybe that's how I get people to stay, and not abandon me. And he turns to step number two, which is the works of self-help guru Dale Carnegie, specifically his book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People," and Charles latches onto the sprays that's in this book, in quotes. It says, "Let the other fellow feel that the idea is his." So basically manipulate them. - Yeah. - These would become the guiding principles for the rest of his life, although it would take a while for him to really figure out how to do it. - After getting released from Terminal Island, Charles tried his hand at recruiting sex workers, now the knowledge that he had from his prison friends, but it did not go as planned, and he ended up back in prison just 13 months after getting let out. But this time, he was sent to a different institution, one that was off the coast of Washington State, and he used his time behind bars here to learn other opportunities that molded later how he would become. - It is so wild because I do feel like, I mean, this is part of the stuff that I didn't know about Manson, because all the media really focused on-- - You just see the photos of him looking so crazy, with like getting arrested, and all the pictures of Sharon. - But then he had a whole life of crime prior to the crimes we know about. - Which is not how they have portrayed it before. Or it's just like this little hippie to be family, they're like playing music, and then suddenly they murder a pregnant celebrity. - Nope, but it's a lifelong journey. It didn't happen overnight. - Yeah, so in jail, he decided to explore Scientology and picked up some concepts about ego suppression and the possibility of self-reinvention. - Well, I hear Scientology, and I think, oh, that's another cold, so-- - Well, yeah, right, right, right. First, he joined a cold and then he became a leader. He also later became fixated on a science fiction book called "Stranger in a Strange Land." This is about a guy who was raised on Mars and started his own religion on Earth. And the guy in the book uses his mind to destroy his enemies, engage in group sex, and become an immortal spirit. - Let me guess, Charles Manson, really, especially loved the group sex part. - Obviously. - And probably also the immortal spirit idea. - Just the whole thing, I think. - Yeah. - 'Cause he's like obviously identifying his feeling out of this world. He doesn't belong on this planet. - He's copy and pasting. - Yes, he's taking like a sci-fi book. - He's plagiarizing. - Oh my gosh, guys, go get him. And during this time, he also discovered that he loves music. He loved playing guitar. He loved the Beatles, and by the time he got out, on March 21st, 1967, Charles Manson believed that he was destined to be this world-famous musician, which is what led him to move to San Francisco because this was the height of counter-culture, pieces of love, movement. He could totally have maybe a successful shot at having a music career here. - In San Francisco, it was the place to be. - Yeah. (upbeat music) - Happy Halloween, crime house listeners. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Join me every Sunday this month on Crime House 24/7 for Crime House of Horrors, where I dive into four stories behind some of our favorite scary movies. If you can't wait and want all four episodes now, add free, join Crime House Plus. Join on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at crimehouseplus.com. - So here, 32-year-old Charles Manson walks into the middle of the notorious Hate Ashbury District with a guitar, a dream, this strange sci-fi Scientology, Control-Sex combo ideology, very wordy ideology. And between playing music, having sex and doing drugs, Charles starts to share his philosophy with other people. - It does make you wonder, like if you took him out of this time period and this bubble and put him just like today, somewhere. People would be like, you're on drugs. Like you're having a mental moment and you might need to just go seek help, right? - Well, that's such a big thing of this 'cause it is such a drug-induced. - But everyone else is too, which is what's right. - It's tough, it's very tough. - So he ends up what we'll call the first recruit, although he wasn't technically, most cult leaders aren't being like, I'm starting a cult. But one of his first, if not his first recruit, was a woman named Mary Brunner, who was a 23-year-old assistant librarian at UC Berkeley. And Charles was able to like very quickly charm her so much so that he charmed her into letting him stay with her. And then Charles started bringing home other women with him, but he had gotten so deep into Mary's head. And also this is like a time of like free love and all this stuff, where as long as Charles, at the end of the day, Charles would like prioritize her and still give her attention to, she was like, yeah, bring whoever you want, as many women as you want over. - I need to see pictures of him from this time period because the amount of like charisma and charm and convincing people, and in my head, all I can think of is all of his arrest photos where he looks like a rabbit, and like literally looks like he just crawled out of his own grave. He's terrifying. - Absolutely horrifying. - So like how is someone who's at UC Berkeley, which is a very difficult school to get into? - Well, he's not attending. Wasn't the person working there? - She was, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, oh yeah. - Yeah, like how does she find herself in front of Charles Manson? - It's just the-- - And it's like, sure. - It's the time, I don't know. He had something, something we don't understand. Also, going back to the drug thing, like I said. I said, "Tarlsmanson was on a lot of drugs." Like a lot. He was smoking weed, doing mushrooms, loved LSD, and then the more he did, as we know, scientifically people become more disconnected from reality. So Charles Manson, the more drugs he's doing, which is a lot is becoming increasingly more disconnected from reality. He started comparing himself to Jesus Christ, but Jesus says something he didn't, apostles. So that meant Charles Manson needed some followers. So he starts recruiting more people to come live with him and marry, and they're all, can you guess what types of people he's recruiting? Young, hot women. Yes. Young, vulnerable women looking for a sense of belonging. The first was a woman named Lynette from a 18-year-old runaway who Charles met on a trip down to Venice Beach in May of 1967. And then by the end of the summer, they were joined by two more women, Patricia Crenwinkel, who later said that she had felt ugly and unwanted her entire life until Charles told her she was beautiful. And then Susan Atkins was a newest member who had an unstable childhood, and prior to meeting Charles, had briefly explored the Church of Satan. So it's like, once you start learning people's back stories, it starts to make sense as to why they're starting to click with him. Yeah. And Charles was quite obsessed with testing his followers' devotions. So sometimes he would make them stand in front of a tree while he threw knives at them? Absolutely terrifying. Perfect. And if Charles felt like someone was kind of spacing out during one of his long rants, one of his rambling sermons, he would get physically violent. He had decided he needed more discipline in the group. And so he felt that he should finally open up the group to men because who was more disciplined than a man? But it's like he needed some men who would still bow down to him, but be able to discipline the women when he couldn't. Right. And also it's better for someone else to discipline the women so that they still idolize and love Charles. It's sick. It is sick. And sometime in the fall of 1967, he went over a guy named Bruce Davis. And Bruce looked up to Charles just like all the women, the Mary Lynette Susan and Patricia did. And Bruce was so desperate to be the right hand man. That's who we wanted to be Charles. He was going to be like his second in command. And Charles was like, oh my god, this worked out really great. I'm super happy to have such a devoted follower like him. Yeah. And I do think it's important to mention that aside from the knife throwing and some of the abuse of tactics here that are happening, from the outside, this does not look like a violent group. And it really didn't for a long time. This was a group of young people who had been looking for somewhere to belong, looking for a family. And they found that with Charles, you know, just a family that does a lot of drugs and has orgies and really has no boundaries. Although a lot of families don't have boundaries. So I guess in that way it does feel like a family. But it didn't feel or look sinister. Like it felt like they were breaking away from a world up up until this moment, hadn't been working for them. And beneath it all, Charles was still the one in control. He was shaping the rules. He was dictating everything. In fact, the more his followers gave up, the more they felt like they were gaining, which is like, that should be, I think it feels backwards. It's so backwards, but like if Colts had a Pinterest page, I feel like that would have like a sunset in the background and that would be like a motivation. Give up everything and gain more. Yes, like you'll feel more fulfilled. So now that everything was going in the way that Charles Manson felt like it should go, he was like, okay, time for phase two, which meant moving from San Francisco down to Los Angeles. So that he could be a famous musician, right? Because his love for the Beatles and music and playing guitar that was still within him. And at this point, the violence had not started yet, but everything that would make it possible was already in place. So in late 1967, Charles Manson, like you were saying, was ready to fulfill his destiny of becoming a famous musician. Which meant moving to Los Angeles. 'Cause Hollywood, maybe. So very of this age, Charles Manson found an old school bus and loaded up everyone. So he brought the whole crew. They drove south to Los Angeles. And you might be like, okay, well, everyone wants to go to Hollywood, but like the reality is most people don't make it, right? But Charles, in this part, it's not really delusional. He actually had a meeting planned. Like he knew someone because it turns out his guitar teacher from prison had a connection in the music industry, Gary Stromberg, who was an exec at Universal Music. So Gary set this studio session up with Charles. So Charles drove down to LA with everyone and then goes to the studio session. And let's just say, like when I was reading this, I was like, wow, this reminds me of the time that I really wanted to be on a swim team because my cousins were really good swimmers. And so I went and tried to help my swim team. And I come up all like happy and giddy after I slam the laps. And the guy goes, really good job. You should take swim lessons. Oh shoot. Yeah, so that's kind of what happened to Charles. He performed his music and Gary's like, he didn't get enough practice. He didn't get his 10,000 hours in a jail. Gary's like, hey, you should work on your material. Buddy, as in, hey, nothing. But what's more Hollywood than that? 100% knows to get your one yes, isn't that? So I can still be on a swim team. You would still be a swimmer, Sabrina. Just take your lessons. But so yeah, Charles, even though he's getting denied right now, he's like, you know what? I will keep practicing. I will work on my material. I'm not giving up. I know this is my destiny. He is so gung-ho about his dream and he was gonna keep going. So they stay. That's gonna say something so mean and I don't know if this is gonna be super controversial. I was gonna say, well, Bob Dylan could be a musician. I think anyone can. So I almost do believe in Charles Manson's ability even if he can barely play a guitar. It is one of those. And I know some people are gonna get really pissed at that. And I know. Sorry. But I mean, I feel like people can agree. He doesn't have the best voice, but his music is great. There is also the part where I'm like, I wish I, like I don't want to listen to it. What Charles Manson's music sounded like, 'cause I don't want to give him the time of day, but I'm just so curious. Like I really hope it's terrible. Like just really, really bad. What's probably bad is, okay, you even listen to it. Is it recorded? I didn't even look because I didn't want to. Right. I don't want to feed the algorithm with that search. Yeah. Okay, so Charles and the group who we're gonna, for the sake of familiarity, we're gonna call them the Manson family, but just a note, they didn't refer to themselves as the Manson family. Like that's a name that the public gave to them once the story became streamlined. But we'll call them the family, or the Manson family, just to be clear. So they settled into Tapanga Canyon, which was a hippie, enclave, and the hills of West LA. A lot of other musicians live there. And Charles spent his time working the social circuit. He would show up at parties. He would charm people. And he also, taking from what he learned in prison, he would send the women of the family out to make connections and quotes. Okay, he would pamph them out. Yeah. He was also growing the family and attracting more followers into the family. And then here's the thing. This is actually one of my favorite stories because it's so crazy. Charles and the family didn't really have a house. They didn't really pay rent. So they would move and sleep around, take advantage of opportunities. Like, oh, there's a party here going all night. Like this is where we're staying for a couple days. But this is how they end up bunking at the drummer of the beach boys, Dennis Wilson's house. Here's the story. It's wild. 'Cause I also did not know this until preparing for this episode. It is the spring of 1968. Dennis Wilson, again, the drummer of the beach boys is driving through Malibu when all of a sudden he sees two beautiful women hitchhiking on the side of the road. What does he do? He pulls over and he's like, "Hey, ladies." I don't know if he actually saw that. But he invites-- I'm only an LA for his short amount of time. He invites them back to his house and he drives them to his house. And I'm pretty sure he has his fun with them and he has like go do something. So he leaves his house, leaves the two women there. But when he gets back, Charles and the entire family has moved in. It's so scary. It's literally like a horror movie. But this is the late '60s, early '70s. So Dennis, it's very like peace and love. It's your mind to leave a book. We just read, which is a paranormal wine that we used to live here. Yes. We're just like, "Oh, don't let him in." He had no choice. But then also when he first met Charles, he was actually enchanted by him as well. And Charles, you know, he had this way about him that when he focused on you, it felt like the most significant attention you'd ever received. Even if you're a part of one of the biggest bands. Right. He's like, you're my favorite boy. I'm a good bud, who has no problem with all of his lady friends sleeping with me. Right. And he gives me a bunch of drugs. Right. It kind of does seem like a good situation for some. Dennis becomes friends with these strangers. We're now living in his home. And he has no interest in joining the family. But he did introduce Charles around town. He even introduced him to the music producer, Terry Melcher. But Terry just didn't just sign people because they were good. Good time. And he even said that Charles didn't have what it took. So after Terry Melcher kind of turns Charles down, this music career is further and further. away from Charles, but he's still not going to give up. But it also doesn't take long before Dennis gets sick of Charles, but I also need to point out that I'm pretty sure Charles and the family bunked in Dennis's house for like three to six months. So it's not so long. Yeah, it's not like they stayed for a couple of nights. No, they fully took over his home to the point that they crashed one of Dennis's cars. They were making a complete mess of Dennis's house. I think they racked up a bill of the number here says to the tune of $100,000, which is almost a million dollars today. Was he not totally panicked? I don't know. So Dennis's lease, which ended in late 1968, he decides to move somewhere smaller and he does not invite Charles and the family to come with him. I also read that Dennis like escaped his own home, like ran away from his own home to escape Charles in the group, but I don't know that as a fact. Either way, I want to know more that existed within the Beach Boys, like what was the drama that he was bringing to recording sessions, like he was going to show that whole era and like the world count Laurel Canyon Sound and like the Mama's and the poppers and the music scene that was happening there. Oh, the Mama's and the poppers. Oh, I just feel like a music drama. Right. Podcasts. We don't have a lot to say about that because there's just so much that happened in there. Yeah. There's so much. I would love to be a fly on the wall, but yeah, I wouldn't be able to keep up. There's too much going on. One night is all I could handle, and I'd have to sleep for a come on. So regardless of how any of this happened, Charles and the family were without a roof over their heads and this illusion of becoming a famous musician started to crack. And Charles, while he realized it might not happen for him, he wasn't ready to give up on LA just yet. Peter Dennis ditched him, which I feel like ditched just isn't even the right word. It's like a game. It's just games. Yeah, survived the Manson family. He moved the family to spawn ranch. This was an abandoned Western movie set about 30 miles northwest of LA in the northern hills of San Fernando Valley. It wasn't quite abandoned because they did have an owner, 80 year old George spawn, who was nearly blind. And Charles was able to make a deal with George in exchange for the family being allowed to live on the ranch's various shacks and outbuildings for free. He offered to fix up the place. And what else did he offer, Corinne, a female companion, a young female companion, Lynette from a 20 year old to spend time with 80 year old George. I think we know what that means. Yeah. So yeah, implications are clear. Charles was fully in control of his followers, and it was here while living on spawn ranch that he got an even firmer grip on the family. Their days were tightly scheduled, ranch work in the morning, LSD sessions in the afternoon, communal sex at night, don't be late. And Charles controlled it all from supervising their acid trips to choosing who slept with hair. But just so wild. It's not just like, okay, grip or do you time with like you two together? Yeah. Oh, I don't like it. He should have just gone into the porn industry, and I actually know that I think about it is a huge industry. Yeah. That's probably where he would have had success. He wanted to be a musician. Well, choose your soundtracks. Make your own music for the porn videos you're creating. Anyway, he also decided who could leave the property for how long and what they did when they left. He stripped away every external anchor they had, their jobs, their families, their money, their identities in some cases, which is like classic cult behavior, right? One particularly dark example is Diane Lake. She was only 14 years old when she joined the family, which is like, oh, my God, you're way too young to even be seen. I know. What's going on? Babies. Never more participating in it. Charles gave her a fake ID with the name Diane Bluestein, which made it much harder for anyone to try to track this child down. As with most cults and cult leaders, they break someone down until they are just, there's nothing left except for Charles, except for Charles, and that is exactly what he did. During the group LSD sessions, Charles would move through the group and narrate their hallucinations in real time, which is crazy to think about. He was trying to control the trip. Yeah. And he was. And he's also probably tripping. So it's like how trippy, sorry, there's lack, lack of a better word there, but is this whole situation? Right. Is there a trip becoming whatever he says it is, or is he actually accessing something? But I understand why it would be like very confusing where it's like, oh, he is a leader. He does understand things. He knows everything. He was relating himself to Jesus. Yeah. And took inspiration from a guy who grew up on Mars in the books, like it is very other worldly in a way. Yeah. So not only was he shaping their day-to-day realities, but also their imaginations and hallucinations and drug-induced hypnosis. Yes. I was going to say it's hypnosis. Yeah. Yeah. I wish. And that's where it stopped. That all this was a bunch of people having sex and doing drugs, but we know it is not. And here is one of the biggest turning points, Helter Skelter. Helter Skelter was a song by The Beatles that was released in late November 1968 on their newest album, The White Album. And Charles, who already loved The Beatles, like he discovered them while he was in prison and fell in love with them, loved them, he became obsessed with this song almost immediately, not just because it's lapsed, but because Charles believed that it held a secret prophecy specifically for him, for Charles Manson. The Beatles wrote a song, a secret message just for Charles Manson, someone who they have no idea who he is. Yeah. And before I tell you what he believed this prophecy is, I'm going to be very clear. It's a very racist, very white, like horrible thing, it's delusion. The theory was, Charles thought The Beatles were predicting an imminent apocalyptic race war where black Americans would rise up, slaughter wealthy white people, seize control of the country, but because they weren't supposed to govern, a power vacuum would form. And when that black community failed to govern, Charles Manson specifically and his family would emerge from a underground golden city beneath the Mojave Desert, where they had been hiding, and Charles and the family would rule the world. But the fuck I know, oh my god, what? Right. Insane. Yes. Let's just repeat that. There's a lot going on here. Charles Manson. We're the mole people living in a golden city beneath the crust of the earth. Well, just under the desert, they're not going that deep. I don't know. There's a whole city, a golden city, and it goes somewhere deep. Yeah. So there's a lot going on here, namely white supremacy, like that you can't ignore that. It's horrible. And I do feel like, again, that's a part of the story that really does get erased when you hear about Charles Manson, like you don't, it's not often talked about. But the heart of it, Charles was just presenting racism and white supremacy as this, like, so called enlightened ideology. And it is really hard to say what his followers believed. But we do know that they believed in Charles wholeheartedly. And Charles started to use some real world events. And no one in the group was black, either. No. Yeah. Yeah. So he's a racist. Charles would use some real world events to prove his theory that the race war was imminent. So in early 1969, they were protests all over L.A. fueled by racial tensions in the Vietnam War. So Charles used these as proof that the apocalypse would be upon them by the summer. And of course, that meant that they have to get ready for it, right? Because it's coming. So end of days, everyone listened to Charles. So he started teaching the family knife fighting. And he ran what he called creepy crawling exercises where they would break into people's homes at night, move things around and then leave without waking anyone up or find what are you doing? That's so creepy. Yeah. But I guess like the point of all of this was he was like, okay, things are going to be hard to come by. Guns are going to be hard to come by supplies, things like that that we need to survive and to fuel our underground city. So we have to practice creeping around at night and getting what we need without letting the others know that we're there, but finally called it the creepy crawling, creepy crawling exercises. Yeah. So for that part of the plan, Charles acquired a remote property in Death Valley called Barker Ranch. This would be their like golden city area. Yeah. He had dunebuggies modified for the desert and he even ran survival training classes like Mad Max. Well, yes. And all this is happening while Charles is still bugging Terry Melcher to sign him for record deal. Think about that duality. Yeah. It's like, I'm still holding on to my planet. Planet is like, be able to go on stage and play my guitar and sing my songs. Plan B is bad shit a while. Yeah. It's like, hey, let's prepare for the end of the world, but also, hey, can someone listen to my tracks? If you don't listen to my music, I'm going to crawl into the earth. It's just weird, weird, it's very, yeah. Did you know of volcano once blocked out the sun and accidentally gave a sprank in sign or that the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who took it. Terrorized an entire ocean, may never have actually killed anyone? Hi, I'm Connor Tomlinson. You might know me from love on the spectrum. History is my thing and has been my whole life, and I'm Carter Roy. And this is what the fact. Every week we take three of the wildest true things ever recorded and tell you the whole story behind them. The facts that sound made up, the stories that got buried, the moments that changed everything. Carter brings the history. Connor brings the facts, the tangents, and the occasional British accents. The wildest stuff is real, and the real stuff is wilder than you think. New episodes every Wednesday follow what the fact on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, or subscribe on YouTube at what the fact pod. In a world where swords were shot. And hygiene was actually probably better than you think it is. Two fearless historians. Me, Matt Lewis. And me, Dr. Eleanor Yamaga, dive headfirst into the mud, blood, and very strange customs of the Middle Ages. So for plagues, crusades, and Viking raids, and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. So obviously, I don't know if we can say there's any logic here, at least, not any sound logic. So Manson is planning for the apocalypse. He's fighting for his music career, he's trying to make money, and he's a racist. And a major way of making all of this happen is through drug dealing. He makes a drug dealing agreement with a biker gang called Straight Satan's. And the Straight Satan's were happy to supply the drug so long as they got to go to the ranch. And enjoy with everyone, aka, be with and sleep with the women. Yeah. Before long, the Straight Satan's were always hanging around the spawn ranch and sell for their drugs. But the one thing about them coming to the ranch with drugs is that they brought a lot of harder drugs, which is like almost hard to imagine because they were doing so many drugs. Right. And so many like hallucinatory drugs, which you would consider really hard drugs. Right. Biker gang, they were like, here's some amphetamines and other hard stuff and things that like made it harder for Charles to control the group, which he did not like. Right. Like people were getting moody. Whereas like the other drugs they were taking was more of like, oh, let's like connect to the earth. Yes. And it's Heather's suggestion. A piphany. Yeah. That starts to become a problem that's annoying Manson, but it's something he has to deal with later because in March of 1969, guess who finally agrees to come to spawn ranch and listen to Charles play Terry Melter. This is the guy that Dennis Wilson from the Beach Boys had introduced Charles to. So this is a big deal. Like Terry Melter is coming to listen to Charles play. But then when the day arrived, Terry didn't show up and Charles was pissed. He was furious. So furious. He got in his car and he drove to Melter's house, which was on CLO drive in LA's Benedict Canyon to confront Terry, although when Charles gets to the house, Terry's not there because he had moved. So the house is not Terry's and knows the house is not Terry's the new tenants are actress Sharon Tate and her husband Roman Polanski keep that in mind. I think everyone knows where we're going with this. But so at this time, he's furious that he can't find Terry and he leaves eventually he does get in touch with Terry, who actually agrees to come to spawn ranch later on May 18th. And then on May 18th, Terry actually shows up. But once again, after listening to Charles play, Terry's like, you know, thanks, which as you can imagine, Charles did not like this rejection and was pissed. So eventually once Charles did commit all of his crimes, people have wondered if part of this and part of his motive was this rejection. But then there's also that Helter, Skelter prophecy, which as summer is getting closer, he's getting way more serious about this prophecy. And these creepy crawling expeditions turn straight up into theory like they're seedling things now from people's houses and his LSD fueled sermons start to become all about death. Charles even starts asking his listeners if they will die for him. And of course, the answer was yes. But here's the thing. This prophecy said the race war was happening this summer, it was coming, it was imminent. But the days are ticking by and that apocalypse is just not happening. So Charles decides, ah, it's because I have to make it happen. I have to move it along. How messed up is that thing getting? Yeah, it's all wrong. It does make me wonder because I feel like in so many of the cult conversations that we have, the cults are much larger, right? There's like 40 to 100 or even thousands of members sometimes depending on which one you're talking about. But this is such a small group that it's like about 20 years or 20 or so. Yeah, but small. It makes me wonder if there were people who were like cracking through who weren't fully bought in. But I guess there's also the fear of like if you, if you don't say you'll die for him, if you don't do this, you're going to get knives thrown at you right in front of a tree or whatever. But I feel like when it comes to the Manson family, we don't hear of like the few people who who left or or challenge him or something. Yeah. Yeah. So I am curious. But anyway. So he's like, hey, I need to start this thing myself, get the ball rolling and the shift from proposed ideology turned into actual violence because Charles is planning the apocalypse himself now. But in order to do the things he wants to do, they need more money. And he thought he could get more money and kick off the world consuming race war all at once. It's all connected to one of his friends, Bobby Bosley, who wasn't officially part of the family, although they were close, which is like another question. It's like, if you're that close and you see what's going on, like, yeah, you're like, oh, him and his silly followers, or are you kind of bought in, but you have other things that are keeping you. So, well, based on what happens, I feel like he was enough under Charles's command that I would almost consider him a part of it. Or was he just kind of already having some of those thoughts himself and that this was a convenient, sure, pairing, I don't know. Anyway, Bobby had an axe to grind with a music teacher/drug dealer that the family named Gary Hinman. Apparently, Gary had sold Bobby a bad batch of mescaline and Bobby wanted his money back. And Charles was pretty sure that Gary had a lot of money laying around because he was a drug dealer. Right. And so, he came up with a plan to convince Bobby, one that was easy to convince Bobby to go along with. And now, what we're about to say happened to Gary's house has been pieced together through various testimonies and interviews. So, it is kind of hard to say exactly what happened, but here's the most accepted version of events, according to Jeff Gwynn's book. On July 25th, 1969, Charles sent Bobby to Gary's house. He brought two followers with him as backup. When they got to Gary's, Bobby demanded that Gary give him all of his money and Gary was like, "I don't have any eyes where I don't have any," and then Bobby beat him to a pulp. Gary still did not hand over any money, so Bobby and the others called Charles, who came to the house with a sword. Charles then slashed Gary's ear, told Bobby to handle it and then laughed. For almost three days, Bobby and the others kept Gary alive, tied up and continued to beat him over and over, demanding money, which Gary continued to swear he did not have any. At the end of the three days, Charles Manson ordered Bobby to kill Gary. They didn't have money, but they could still kick off Helter Skelter. And how were they going to do that? Well, they were going to make it look like the black panthers had killed Gary and start the race wore that way. After Bobby murdered Gary, he wrote political piggy on the wall with Gary's blood and then drew the black panther symbol, which was a pop rent. The idea was basically to make it look like this white man was viciously murdered by this group and the media would cover it, we all over the news and then the race wore would start and the apocalypse would happen and blah, blah, blah. And one thing I do want to say is that this idea that Manson wanted a starter race wore and that being the motive behind all of his crimes, very well may be true, but it is also a theory that was popularized by Vincent Bugliosi, who was the prosecutor on the Manson case. So like, as we'll talk about later, when he became the prosecutor and was trying to piece together the case, like, this is the theory he came up with based on evidence, but there are also other theories, which we'll discuss. Either way, it is the result of a very deranged man who had complete hold of his family members. And regardless of his motive, Gary's murder did not incite a race wore. Gary's body was found a few days later on July 31, 1969 and when the police saw the messages on the wall, they really didn't know what to make of it, but they did know it was a murder. And at the crime scene, like, looking at it, they saw that Gary's car had been stolen. So they marked it as stolen and then a couple days later, the police see that car driving in Los Angeles and they pull it over. And they find Bobby Bosoley driving the car and they also find a bloody knife hidden behind the wheel. So they're like, okay, well, this must be our murderer. And they also mad Bobby's fingerprints to those found at the crime scene in their match So now Bobby's arrested. There's no race war Charles still does not have the money he wanted and he's starting to fear that Bobby's going to turn him in Because if he's not a family member. Yeah, he's not part of the family. Right. So what does Charles decide to do? He decides to kill again Oh, just the natural path forward out of this terrible situation. You've just created right and again We can't say with 100% certainty what the motive here was Some say it has to do with again starting Helter Skelter and the race war Others have theorized that it had to do with making it seem like Bobby wasn't the killer So if they do copycat crimes It will make it look like oh, they caught the wrong man and then the killer is still out there And then others say that this next act of murder Wasn't active revenge because of his failed music career Whatever the motive Charles Manson decided that this time they would pick an even bigger target One that would send a message loud and clear When killing Gary Hinman didn't get Charles Manson what he wanted so no money no race war He decided he needed to try again His motives have been debated, but basically this led to Him visiting Terry Miltcher's house at 10050 C. L. O. Drive well old house like he knows he knows that he doesn't live there anymore. Yeah, that there are other people living there Also, it's possible that maybe he had just forgotten It's possible that he chose the house because it was nice and because he knew the layout or because he still really wanted to be a musician And so he did need Terry alive But he did want to send a message and threaten him either way He was also pretty sure that whoever was living there would have a lot Of money. Yeah, and I feel like so the the theory about Terry Miltcher like him still needing him alive at wanting to send Terry a message like One if that's true. It's kind of backwards because it's like everything is yeah, everything's back Nothing nothing is long. Yeah, nothing makes sense No, so it is hard to kind of like predict exactly what's going on and what he was thinking in his line of reasoning because it doesn't It just doesn't make sense. Yes, and he has changed his story right then his Family have like always just defended him and not really told the right story yet So it's just really hard. You know, and this episode's already been full of horrible crimes But I do want to give another content warning here because what we're about to describe is So violent and it does involve the murder of a pregnant woman This is the murder of the crime scene that everyone talks about when they think of Charles Manson But on the night of August 8th 1969 Charles Manson ordered his follower Charles texts Watson who will call text to go to 1 0 0 5 0 C L O drive with three other family members and Charles's instructions were clear Kill everyone inside Make it brutal leave a message So they arrived to the property sometime after midnight. They cut the phone lines and made their way up to the house Almost immediately. This is when they encountered a car leaving the home 18-year-old Stephen parent is the definition of wrong place wrong time He had been visiting the estate's caretaker and was just leaving Went unfortunately heat like the timing of this. It's just so horrible. He ran into text and the others text Watson shot Stephen to death then text Watson Susan Atkins and Patricia Crenlinkel continued up to the house while Linda Cassabian remained by the gate as look out Unfortunately, the brutality did not end there as there were four people inside the home for innocent unsuspecting people Inside where Jay C. Bring a celebrity hair stylist Boycheck Freikowski a writer and one of Roman Polanski's close friends Abigail Folger an heir to the Folger coffee fortune and a dedicated philanthropist and most notoriously the actress Sharon Tate Who was eight and a half months pregnant so five innocent people in this home Sharon's husband Roman Polanski was filming a movie overseas and this is so tragic because Apparently Sharon Tate had really wanted to go with him while he was filming But because she was so far along in her pregnancy doctors were like no you have to stay. Yeah, she can't travel But like in another world she could have like the timing of it. I know Well in another world Charles Manson doesn't exist. That's true That's the world we prefer. Yeah, she doesn't need to travel super pregnant to avoid. I know death. He just needs to not be a fucking awful person Yeah, it's heartbreaking The text Susan and Patricia broke into the house and went on to commit a truly horrific murder They wrangled everyone from inside the home into the living room. They bound them with rope Jay C. Bring with shot and stabbed to death somehow voice check and Abigail managed to free themselves and make a run for it I think one ran to the front one ran to the back Ultimately they were caught and killed by text and Patricia It's one of those things where like I think about it sometimes too just being in this space and like just generally being a paranoid person Then when I have additional people in my home like there's a greater sense of security because I like who would dare do anything now when there's like Five adults present most crimes are committed by people like are on people by people they know Yes. Yeah, like this brand. This is so random random active violence and it's a group of people attacking another. Yeah, unrelated It's not anything to do with right gangs or drugs or anything like that 50 to 80% of violent incidents are committed by non-strangers So yeah, this is like truly horrific and then another really horrific thing according to Susan Atkins Sharon Tate pregnant Sharon Tate begged to spare her life so the baby could live But they fatally stabbed Sharon and her unborn baby to death and had no mercy Just like in the murder of Gary Hinman text Susan and Patricia left a bloody message They wrote pig and blood on the front door But Charles Manson was not done The next night on August 9 into August 10 Charles personally took some family members out to the nice part of Los Feliz Which is a neighborhood in L.A. He partied at a house in the area a few times So he decided that this would be a good place to go He chose to go after the people who lived next door to that house Which like some people are like oh, he didn't go to the house that he had partied at because he was scared it would connect to him So he chose again random strangers or did he right next door or Right, you're like oh, no, no, no, I think it was this house. It was dark. I can't I can't remember But I'm pretty sure it's this house like who knows Anyway, the people who lived next door were Lino and Rosemary lobbyanka And like with the other murders they were brutal. They were bloody. They're messy Manson worked with his family to tie the couple up And rob them According to Manson and his family Charles then left and gave the others orders to kill the couple again This is also hard to confirm because Manson like constantly was trying to be like well I wasn't there for the awkward murders. Right convenient. Yeah They stabbed the couple to death with a bayonet and knife and then left the word rise and death to pigs Written in blood on the walls War the word war was carved in teleno stomach Helter skilter was written in blood on the refrigerator And as you can imagine these crimes created a panic in Los Angeles. I mean they were horrific and brutal and despite these words written in blood And despite our ability to talk about it after the fact Investigators did not put them together. They did not connect them at all like for how many people are writing pig and blood at crime scenes like How is that not good? Well, like some people were like did they see the news of the other one and then they're copying it and then also I'm pretty sure investigators thought the tape Murders had to do with like a bad drug deal or something like that It's also just so distra I'm like what is he telling his followers because it's like there needs to be this one thing to happen to trigger all of the events but it's like It convincing them to murder one person is is one thing but now to continue on this like big murder spree That's horrible Yeah, so regardless investigators did not make the connection between the two murders until mid-October So like over two months later But in the meantime When this race war still didn't start Charles is telling his followers like No, no, no, no, this is everything's going as planned. This is slowly happening. We're building like the race war is imminent We're doing everything right now. It's time we have to go hide out And remember they had bought that land in death Valley So Charles and his over two dozen family members picked up and moved to Barker Ranch in death Valley once they got there Charles is like the prophecy says this underground city of gold. We have to find it It's somewhere here in the death Valley a desert Right. So he starts sending with really harsh conditions like it's called death Valley for a reason I can't remember when one of my close friends was For part of her like honeymoon was doing a bunch of Road trip in her van with her husband and they went and spent time at death Valley She's like, I'm not gonna have any service and I was a wreck for the I was like, yeah, she's okay So imagine like moving here and then Charles Manson is directing and ordering his followers to go out on on expeditions to look for this underground city of gold for weeks They are trudging through the majave desert on his orders But it was becoming increasingly clear that this underground city did not exist and that living in the middle of the desert was not easy. One by one, members started slipping away in the middle of the night and going to like stay in a nearby town rather than like living on Barker Ranch in the middle of the desert. But Manson continued with his orders and then completely unrelated to the Tate La Bianca murders, the police were investigating the Manson family because and this is so like full circle, they had been stealing cars. So the investigators were searching and looking for the Mansons because of their past, like all the stealing of the cars. So on October 10th, 1969, again, completely unrelated to the Tate La Bianca murders. They raid Barker Ranch in Death Valley and take everyone into custody. I guess Charles Manson wasn't there at the time, but he came back a couple days later and that's when police were able to round him up. Again, for stealing cars. Grand Theft Auto is a serious crime. But like if they actually knew about the other crimes, there's so much worse, like murder. And also let's not forget the 14 year old that he actively covered up and changed her identity to essentially continue to abduct a child who was then insulted. Pretty sure when they did the raid at Barker Ranch, there were young children running around. I mean, they're having orders all the time, I'm sure. Yeah, so all in all, lots of crimes happening here. But they're arrested taken into custody for stealing cars. The police are still investigating the Tate La Bianca murders, still trying to figure out have never even once considered Charles Manson and the Manson family responsible for these crimes. Not once, but in November, while in custody, Susan Atkins, who, if you remember, is a member of the family, couldn't help but talk to a fellow inmate about how she murdered Sharon Tate. It is said that she told another inmate that she killed Sharon Tate and then quotes because we wanted to do a crime that would shock the world, that the world would have to stand up and take notice. Meanwhile, they're literally dressed as hippies. Yeah, but that peace and love. That is what made the connection. How police were like, oh, I kind of get it though. It's before CCTV footage, it's before social media, it's before all this stuff. There's such like an insular group, right? They're not going out and communicating with many people, they're not allowed to. And it's Charles is the one who, yes. And it would appear so random because how would you connect, especially like someone in the music industry who knows thousands and thousands and thousands of people, is probably rejected so many. How would you connect it to one person who was introduced at one time, which was just like, oh, you wouldn't? You wouldn't. You wouldn't. Yeah, of course. It would be really difficult. Right. And they also weren't outwardly saying the word pig were like different things that they were writing in their messages in the way that they communicated as a group. No, because they were trying to frame their crimes to look like the black panthers had committed them. Yeah. So yeah, it would have been really hard for the police to be together. But so this is how the police start to suspect the Manson family was actually involved in the tape La Bianca murders. And within that week, the LA Sheriff's Detective speak to Owl Springer, who, if you remember, the motorcycle gang, the straight Satan's. Owl was a member of that motorcycle gang who used to hang out with Charles Manson all the time. So the detective speak to Owl and Owl tells police that Manson told him about killing people days after the tape La Bianca murders were in the news. He didn't specify, but he told Owl about killing people which made Owl think. Right. But again, it would be hard, because if you met this guy, Charles Manson, who just seems so out of his mind, and it seems like he's making stuff up and believing whatever. And then you see like a famous crime happen on TV. And then suddenly this guy is like, "Oh, I'm responsible for that." Yeah, I'd be like, "Okay, right." Right. But the police are trying to put together witnesses and evidence to really pin them for this case. And so this is three months after the murders. Police are now finally putting the pieces together kind of by accident. On November 30th, 1969, police apprehend Tex Watson, who was in Texas. And on December 8th, 1969, Charles Manson, Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia, Crenwinkel, and Linda Cassabian are all indicted for the murders of Sharon Tate, J.C. Bring, Boycheck Freikowski, Abigail Fulger, and Stephen Parent. The grand jury also indicted those five and Leslie Van Halen for the Lobby Encomerters. As you can imagine, these arrests and the truth about these crimes send the public into a frenzy. Some people who'd always been anti-hippy movement used the Manson family as evidence that they're all just crazed killers. And then the trials began in June of 1970. They ran for nine and a half months, and at the time it was one of the longest and most expensive trials in California history. - Wild. - It's making me, 'cause now the clips will resurface from it, and it's just all I can picture is the women who were still accompanying him and going to-- - His trial trial at his defense. - Right, yeah, still in love with him. - So yeah, it was very chaotic as you would expect. And Charles finally had the black farm that he always dreamed of. And on the first day of the trial, he showed up with a shaved head and an ex carved into his forehead. - Which, that image, I mean, there's so many images of him from around this time that are just so haunting. - Because he looks so scary. - Insane. - He does. - His eyes look absent and vacant and crazed. - It looks like he's still from a movie. - Right. - From my old, a true horror movie. - I wish it was. - He described it as being crossed out of society, and that is why he presented himself that way. So very chilling these images. - Yeah. - If there were any questions about if he still had the loyalty of his closest followers, like I said before, a lot of them were showing up to his trial. And they also cut matching exes into their own foreheads before the day was over. So they were still very actively following him, no matter what he was doing or what people were saying about what he was doing. - Yeah. - They still did it. Outside of the courthouse, a rotating vigil of family members protested for months. Shouting out the Charles was innocent. - Yeah, family members being like the family members. - The family members. - Not family members of those who were murdered. - Yeah. - The same thing was going on in the courtroom. So his co-defendants also the same thing. He had nothing to do with the murders. Charles Manson is innocent. And at one point Charles Manson insists on representing himself, but the judge does not allow it. And the case becomes mainstream news and the headlines are everywhere. - Even the president at the time who was Richard Nixon, made a very bold statement like this is wild. It's like an active trial. He is quoted as saying here is a man who was guilty, directly or indirectly of eight murders without reason. - Yeah, no, it was a circus. - Yeah. - It was wild. But in the end, the jury was not buying it. In August 1970, Linda Cassadian was given immunity in exchange for testimony against Charles Manson and the others. On January 25th, 1971, the jury found Charles Manson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Crenwinkel, and Leslie Van Halen guilty. The four of them received the death penalty. In 1971, text Watson was also found guilty and he was sentenced to death. But then about a year later, their sentences were all commuted to life in prison because California abolished the death penalty in February of 1972. And more shockingly, Charles Manson would be eligible for parole just seven years later. Just to go from a death sentence to, just kidding, and now you're eligible for parole in seven years. Is such a, like those two, they couldn't be more opposite. - How did his mom serve five years in prison for robbing someone with a Coca-Cola bottle? - Right. - But he is in charge of a murderous cult who took the lives of many people actively consciously and over numerous days and had the opportunity to get out after seven fucking years. - Good question. Don't worry though, the good thing is that he was never provoked, but Charles Manson really did become something of a celebrity after this. And then, like I mentioned before the lead prosecutor on the case, Vincent Bugliosi published a book in 1974 all about it and it was called Helter Skelter, the true story of the Manson murders, which made Charles even more famous. And in this book, it's where he posed a lot of his theories, but again, Charles lied a lot. So we can't really trust anything he says. And then many of the Manson members took deals or worked with the prosecutor. And you have to keep in mind when someone's working with the prosecutor for a lighter sentence, they're likely they're gonna go along with the prosecutors like theories to help them. - True. - Regardless. We can all agree, Manson is a monster. And when he was behind bars, he also was convicted for another murder. In 1972, Charles Manson and two other family members, Clem Grogon and Bruce Davis were found guilty of murdering Donald Jerome Shea in 1969. Donald was a stuntman and actor who also worked at Spawn Ranch while the family was there. And I guess they didn't get along. There are a few theories as there are with lots of these crimes about why Charles wanted to kill Donald, but there is apparently a major beef between them. And so Charles ordered Clem and Bruce to kill Donald on August 26, 1969, a couple weeks after the Tate LaBianca murders. Donald's body wasn't found until 1977, but there was enough evidence to convict Charles and the others without a body. - It is so wild how many people died. When really, even in my own mind, after knowing this, I still connect, share and Tate in that group with Charles Manson. And yet there are so many more murders. - So many more murders. - So many more innocent people just attacked. - And probably the family have never been like confirmed. - True. - Like killed by Manson, but probably he was responsible for. And you would think after all of these murders came out, after being behind bars, after being found guilty, like these followers would slowly stop worshipping Charles Manson, but no, no. So many stayed so committed to him and he actually got more and new followers. There was even a woman, or multiple women who wanted to marry him, but in 2014, 26-year-old, 26. After an Elaine Burton who went by star and Charles Manson got engaged, she literally picked up her life and moved to California to be closer to him to where he was being held. And for nine years, she lived there and tried to like argue that Charles was innocent to the world. They got a marriage license in November of 2014, but the wedding never happened and the license expired. - Yeah. - It's just bizarre. - It is. - I don't understand that psychology. - And neither do I. Well, I don't, yeah, again, I was gonna say, I don't think it has anything to do with Charles Manson. I think that there's a whole other thing. - Yeah. - Like there's a famous case of these twin sisters who married to convicted murderers in jail and then when they got released, the twin sisters were brutally murdered by these her friends who they married. - Maybe another season of crimes of. - Oh my God. If you want ice picks and teeth being flocked out, then sure. - Yeah. - Unsurprisingly, Charles Manson was never granted parole. He was denied 12 times and apparently accrued over 108 serious disciplinary violations while in prison, which I'm actually not surprised to call. - No, not surprised at all. - Yeah. He never once showed remorse for the murders. The ex on his head, he later turned into a swastika. So if we weren't confused already about how messed up his ideologies were. - Yep, more evidence. - Over the years, he kept a powerful grip over our imaginations and what happened. And it's literally still kind of in mainstream media. The craze, wild-eyed look, the horrific crimes, the unimaginable control that he had over the family members. It's just still unbelievable. And it's been, it's haunting. - 50 years. - On November 19th, 2017, Charles Manson died of natural causes. And again, you would think that this would be the end of it, but no, because there are rumors that Charles Manson and the Manson family were actually involved in other murders. In November of 2024, the docu-series making Manson was released on peacock. And in it, there are recordings and statements made by Charles Manson where he suggests that he was involved in a couple of killings while living in Mexico. - And there are others, like there are so many, you can look it up online. Some of them are kind of conspiracy, but there are rumors of other Manson-related murders. We'll share this a couple. So Ronald Hughes, who initially defended all the Manson members, he kind of realized that these women were at the mercy of Charles Manson. So he kind of wanted to argue that they were being manipulated and coerced by Charles Manson. And when Charles heard that, he was pissed, obviously. And had like a vendetta against Ronald Hughes. There's even a report that Charles Manson was so pissed off and yelled at Ronald Hughes saying he never wanted to see him again. And not long after that, Ronald Hughes disappeared. Ronald Hughes' body was discovered after an anonymous tip in March of 1971. His body was badly decomposed and naked, discovered between two rocks in Césbí hot springs, and he had been eaten by animals, but there was no sign of foul play. But Lynette From, who was a Manson family member, said that Ronald Hughes was murdered by the family in retaliation for betraying Charles. She did also say that the family murdered 35 to 40 other people, like anywhere between that number. But again, there's no evidence of foul play. And then this is really sad. There was a man named Joel Pew, whose girlfriend Sandy Good had, while they were dating, had met Charles Manson in the family and become so mesmerized by Charles Manson that in 1968, she left Joel. On December 1st, 1969, Joel Pew's body was found in his hotel room in London, England. And it was officially ruled a suicide, but, and this might be conspiracy again, but it's like speculation too. There was no suicide note. Both his wrists and his neck had been cut. And his neck had been cut twice. The reason specifically, most people theorize it might be connected to the Mansons is because there was some kind of writing that had been written on the mirror that had been like tried to like be a race, but it was very similar to the writings on the walls and everything that had been left with the Tate La Bianca murders. - Same memo. - Yeah, again, it was officially ruled a suicide, but there was a family member, Bruce Davis, who was in London at the time. So people like conspire or theorize that it's connected. And there are some others, but I think all in all, most people do agree. There are likely other deaths that Charles Manson and the family were responsible for that they have never been charged for. - Which is so wild, because if the numbers are right with people theorizing that there could be like over 40 murders, that's more than the number of family members. And it's cool. And you normally think of a cult as being a group that wants to recruit more people, not just go on a murderous rampage. - It's because of his messed up ideologies. Yeah, it's just so wrong. Which is why there are movies about it and documentaries and films. And we still talk about it today. - Yeah. - And even if, once upon a time in Hollywood, the Quentin Tarotino film from 2019 tried to rewrite the story and give the victims a new ending, the truth is tragic and it's important to always remember the innocent lives that he took along the way. - You said a question really, like people might be mad at you, hot take. - Yeah. - My hot take is that I hated once upon a time in Hollywood. And I'm not a Tarantino film fan. - Yeah. You told me you hated it. I also tried it. I didn't get past the party scene. - Yeah. - She's like, oh, not for me, not for me. - Not for me. - Sorry, Quentin Tarantino. - It's okay, he'll still be very successful. - Despite our takes. (laughs) - Sharon Tate's mom Doris and her sister Patty spent years trying to fight against what the mythology around him had done to his victim stories. - Yeah. - Doris appeared at every single man's and family parole hearing to oppose release until her death. While Patty co-founded an organization dedicated to the victim's rights in the context of perpetrator celebrity, both died in 1992 having spent their final years fighting for Sharon to be remembered as a person and not a prop in someone else's legacy. - So with that in mind, that's how we're gonna end this episode. We're gonna honor and name and remember the victims. Gary Allen Hinman, 34 years old. Steven Earl Parent, 18 years old. Jay Sebring, 35 years old. Abigail Ann Fulcher, 25 years old. Sharon Tate, 26 years old, and her unborn child, due to be born just a few weeks later, named Paul Richard Pomanski. - Boycheck Freikowski, 32 years old. Pasque Lino, Antonio, or Lino, La Bianca, 44 years old. Rosemary, La Bianca, 39 years old. And Donald De Brom, or Shorty Che, 35 years old. - A heavy, heavy case. (upbeat music) - Thank you so much for listening. We can officially say, "Court is adjourned. "We will be back next week. "We are your host, Sabrina and Diana Roca, "and Crune Bien. "Please join us next Tuesday "for another peek inside another Crimes of Colts case." - And if there are any cases that you would like us to cover, please let us know in the comments. Here at Crimes of We Wanna Think each and every one of you for your support. And if you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crimes House. - Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Crimes of wherever you get your podcasts because your feedback truly makes a difference. - Goodbye, chers. - Goodbye. (upbeat music) - Looking for your next podcast? Check out What the Fact. It's a new show from Connor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, alongside Carter Roy. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pot.