Crop Circles with Chelsey Weber-Smith

There's more than one way to bend a corn, and every corn is a glamorous woman. Welcome to You're Wrong About, I'm Sarah Marshall. With me today is our hoaxster-in-chief, Chelsea Weber-Smith. And today we're going to talk about crop circles, seriologists, and extraterrestrials. And we won't meet any extraterrestrials, but we will meet a lot of British people. And I think that's even more exciting in a way. Chelsea, how are you doing? You know, I am of England, so I can confirm that we are freaks from another planet, that planet being England. Here, I want to try my, let me try my crop circle noise. Yeah. Wait. Wow. Did that sound cool? Yeah. That sounded great. Is that supposed to be a flying saucer landing or flying up? Okay. Landing or sucking up a person. I was going to say sucking up a baby, but I don't know how often they abduct babies. I haven't heard that specific one, but that would be cool, you know? Yeah. I mean, not for, well, I don't know. I think the baby would have a great day. That would be a good children's book. It would be like baby's day out, but he goes to space. Yeah. Or like an 80s buddy movie where the alien. And the aliens are the buddies and they're like, "How'd we get this baby? We got to watch this baby all day?" I was trying to beam up that beautiful woman. It's actually the forgotten sequel to Flight of the Navigator. Yeah. It was destroyed by Disney. Chelsea, what are your associations with crop circles? Is this something that you grew up watching cheesy 90s TV about at all? Oh, I mean, definitely. I feel like I caught a few, like, Fox specials on it. Mm-hmm. As most people did. But I was just thinking before this about how weird it is that me of all people has not done, you know, a deep dive, even of my own, for fun, into crop circles. Mm-hmm. So I'm really coming in pretty fresh. I have, like, UFO alien abduction knowledge, definitely, but just not crop circles. Yeah. And I know, like, I know, like, the skeleton of the story, but I am excited. I'm excited for it to be filled in with blood and guts and muscle by you. And as we like to, we are coming back to the corn, because cornfields are one of the notable fields in which these crop circles are made. Yes. And first started turning up historically. And much like UFO abductions, which you just mentioned, this is a phenomenon that, like, growing up and watching these kind of History Channel type shows about, you would have thought had been around. Mm-hmm. And then it turns out that there's a very distinct point in time, actually, where we started seeing what we might call a classic presentation of them. And in this case, it's 1981. Which is amazing, because when we did the corn mazes one, the companion to this episode, you taught me that corn mazes started in, like, the 1990s, and I was shaken, shaken to my core. Yeah. And of course, like, there's, you know, beautiful. Beautiful historical hedge mazes and things like that. And different kind of iterations of these ideas. But, like, yeah, these specific things that feel timeless to us sometimes are of our own lifetimes. I know. Maybe for some interesting specific reasons. And can you talk just a little bit about kind of the point in time at which the classic idea of the UFO abduction begins? Yeah. Yeah. Let me just, like, tap into my memory here. I mean, we started really, like. Seeing UFOs around the 1940s, around World War II. There's a really great book by Carl Jung. It's called Flying Saucers, A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Skies. Carl Jung's contribution to UFO stuff has been really overlooked. It has been, because it really was the book for me that inspired my podcast, American Hysteria. Wow. Because it was this look at, like, how. Externalize our anxieties and fears into these vessels. Like, for example, UFOs, right? Or Satanists, in the case of what you and I talk about, right? So it's, like, that happened during kind of the war years when we were afraid of, like, being bombed on our own territory and things like that. So we started to see these things. And what I love to always mention about UFOs, because I think it's so cool and so interesting, is that it was either the first or one of the very, very first UFOs. That was seen, was described not as a flying saucer, but as an object that moved like a saucer skipping across the water. And newspapers printed it incorrectly. And from then on, what did we see? Who's skipping all these saucers? Don't they have flat rocks? I mean, it's wasteful. Let's say that. It's indulgent and wasteful. But I think that that's just a great example of how our. Our perceptions can really be changed based on what we're expecting to see. And I just think that's so fascinating. And sort of like the way words change definition. Absolutely. What about the kids? They could cut their feet on all the saucers. And, you know, I mean, in terms of abductions, it's so like married into the movements around recovered memory therapy. A lot of people would have something they barely remembered, like some maybe sleep paralysis. They would have some paralysis experience that they just can't quite explain. They'd go and see a therapist that had their own belief in alien abduction. And, you know, the rest is history. There's this, the ability to influence someone into believing something different about what had happened to them and kind of extrapolating that experience. It's a great, we have a two-part episode on it called Alien Abductions, I think. I don't know. Something like that. That sounds right. It's one of my favorites. It's one of my favorite episodes that you've done that I've heard because you've done many, many, many shows. Thank you. And in this case, would it be correct to say that this phenomenon kind of began or like that there are sort of these scattered stories that people, you can tell people are starting to kind of hear about maybe from disparate parts of the country or even the world. But, you know, we have, we now have newspapers that are capable of having, you know, like a wire service that picks up a local story and takes it nationally. Mm-hmm. In a way that technology is aiding and news is starting to travel a bit faster and that often there are these, we see this in the satanic panic too, that there are elements of a bigger story that coalesce at one point. That's like a flashpoint appears or the, you know, these things that people in the culture are talking about and thinking about sort of get melted into a crucible. Yeah. And then form this overarching narrative. And it seems like in this case, there were like a couple of people who. Who experienced or told this story in a way that made it make sense to people in a way that could then be replicated. Yeah. Will you say more? Well, would it be fair to say that the classic UFO abduction story for Americans was started by this one couple? Yes. Yes. I know he came forward with an abduction story. Yeah. And in a story and in a case that also involves a lot of hypnosis and recovered memory type stuff. Yes. Yes. And I mean, as you mentioned, like this, this flashpoint, you know, Betty and Barney Hill. This was in, I believe, early 1960s. They're driving along a road. They have a strange experience. They can't explain of missing time. And from there, they start to, you know, or at least Betty begins this kind of therapy. And the recordings of the therapy are wild where she is kind of like remembering this abduction. And from there, there's the movies that came out of it. And it just becomes. It becomes, you know, like you said, like it is this flashpoint that then is absorbed into all of our psyches. And we start to view things through this like previously available story that we can then synthesize our own experiences with. So I think that that's. Yeah. And I will say I have I'm not here to say aliens aren't real. So, you know, I may be a skeptic, but. Me neither. I just don't think that they're recreationally sexually assaulting us. And it's interesting to me that that became the dominant narrative. For Americans and like the 60s and 70s. That's that is very true. Yeah, that's very much a part of this. Right. And it's like, well, we do have a culture that like really represses, you know, the kinds of crimes that we're saying aliens are carrying out, you know, and that that doesn't mean nothing, in my opinion. No. And it's interesting because there's like different schools of thought. Like John Mack is so interesting. He was a Harvard professor who was eventually totally like disgraced, quote unquote, by like the institution. And because he interviewed a bunch of abductees and believed what they were saying. And generally, I think John Mack is pretty cool. I don't believe in a lot of the things that he talks about, but he's created like a really nice space for people who have these, you know, these experiences that are, you know, we don't understand. But a lot of the people that he interviewed and like it seems like the interviews that were most important to him had more to do with aliens showing. Mm hmm. Environmental destruction and like leading us toward a better way, which is much nicer than the. narrative of like you know experimentation yeah which is kind of the premise of james cameron's the abyss yeah that's true yeah yep which is which i really love actually is something for aliens to do because you have to ask if they've come all the way here like surely their only goal wasn't just to like fuck with us yeah i mean unless they're like teenage aliens who are just being incredibly extravagant with fuel but even i mean maybe maybe yeah maybe okay but tell us about like have you ever found a crop circle creepy i mean yeah i think so i think they're really creepy well i oh nice i'm really scared of aliens okay i'm a little bit scared of aliens yeah if i'm in the right mood and i and i start picturing aliens i'll get scared of aliens aliens yeah totally totally and by that of course i mean the little the little gray guys with the big heads which are again another classic 60s presentation to my understanding yes definitely and i think barney and betty hill were a big part of that too right because they saw gray aliens but i feel like uh for me i watched mars attacks too young and the rest is history you know i've never seen that because when it came out i was like hell no i'm i'm a baby i can't possibly see the scary movie literally have no idea what's going on and i'm like oh my god i'm a baby i can't possibly see the scary movie literally have no idea what's going on and i'm like oh my god i'm a baby i can't possibly see the scary movie literally have no idea what's going on and i'm like oh my god i'm a baby i can't possibly no idea how i got my mitts on it but yeah i might i might still not be ready it's fucking scary although i would like to see all of sarah jessica parker's of she's good in it for sure i think it's a good movie it's fun it's a lot of fun but very scary for a child and it really cemented my fear as did those like like i think the like shaky cam videos of ufos are scary yeah well there's something inherently scary about a shaky camera arguably because that is a pruder film really put the kibosh on the shaky camera party yeah but also because you i i'm sure that there's like a it's like it's jarring you know you don't know what you're supposed to be looking at and it's you know the image is shaking around and also you have the reasonable expectation that you're gonna you're about to see something scary because that's usually the context there yeah totally so you could like i mean if you showed me a really shaky camcorder recording of a child's birthday party i would be pretty terrified yeah i mean i guess that's the the blair witchian sort of ideas like you know it's like riding through the dark woods with the handy cam yeah i mean i guess that's what happens in signs yeah yeah yeah and signs is really good i mean it's insane like it the ending of it is crazy signs is scary they do they have to show too much of the aliens at the end and you're like well that might have been too much of the aliens no it was too much of the aliens i think they should never have shown the aliens is my opinion and it shouldn't have ended with him becoming a catholic priest again yeah spoiler well the aliens had something to tell him about the lord i think but i mean but the idea that we think aliens are coming to tell us to not fuck everything up is really nice and that's if i if i am to believe in an alien or sort of like the story of aliens making meaning in my life like that's the kind of alien that i like to imagine and it kind of maybe fits with crop circles because the the idea behind crop circles which people start talking about in the early 80s and which really pick up traction in the late 80s and which there are still many many crop circles there are still people who love crop circles and study them and have theories about them but they really um had their first like top of the pops heyday in the late 80s and basically they are they're circles made in the crops it's exactly what it sounds like it's a fairly precise circle made by bending but not breaking like corn or wheat or some kind of cereal grain and they started showing up not just specifically in england but specifically in uh hampshire and wiltshire oh okay which is also great the the aliens have come all the way across the universe to hampshire specifically oh it's an honor you know only to the south of england and this a lot of the story takes place therefore around stonehenge which as you can imagine is very exciting to paranormal type research circulators yes and stonehenge is also relatively close to southampton which in american is where jack dawson wins the tickets on the titanic thank you for translating that and we're gonna watch some unsolved mysteries featuring a lot of english farmers okay who have what i think it's fair to call hot fuzz accents and i'm so excited to just share this little moment in time with you this is from season two of unsolved mysteries so 1988 or 89 i think my our birth year yeah we were older than corn mazes but we're the same age as our twin crop circles so isn't that nice yeah i guess that that's not true because we're just twins with the episode about crop circles of unsolved mysteries that's still pretty good we're twins would die hard we'll take not everybody can say that hey that's true i do think it's funny how like everyone who can remember the 80s is starting to act like the people i remember watching in a documentary about the roaring 20s when i was in ap us history yeah i have to let people know it was ap i'm proud of it okay you should it was hard it is hard i only lasted one year and i was like nope i'm gonna smoke weed that was my one ap class i was like that is enough i am ready for regular placement made everything a lot easier after that yeah i also learned because i've been rereading the ramona books because they're so good that when ramona quimby's dad goes back to school he goes to psu and i went to psu wow that must have felt really good and i really think that that should be on their website that it's where ramona's dad went i think it should be on your website that you went to the same school as ramona's dad yeah you're right i should i should put that on there jam it in shoehorn it in somewhere that'll just be what i start off with perfect the unexplained stonehenge the great megalithic monument music to my ears stonehenge is i love hearing robert stack describe stonehenge for centuries these puzzling formations have baffled scientists and layman alike but recently scientists have identified another phenomenon that may relate to the mysterious british monuments wheat circles wheat with wheat circles oh there he is photograph was taken recently in england it shows circles and wheat fields seem simple enough but in fact they are not simple at all oh no one knows how these enigmatic circles got there molded gently from unbroken stocks of wheat and corn they may just represent one of the most intriguing unsolved mysteries of the century but maybe not nearly ninety five percent of the circles occur within thirty miles of stonehenge and all the rest are near other stone monuments similar to stonehenge are the circles caused by something we can explain like whirlwind whirlwinds are they caused by something we cannot even begin to understand really kelsey you don't think whirlwinds it's not a good explanation you don't think it's whirlwinds charity down a farm two hours drive from london england in the early morning hours of june 15th 1980 37 year old farmer chris wood slowly drove a tractor through one of his wheat fields i'm at 37. what does it mean just after sunrise he saw something in the field that he had never seen before he couldn't explain it a huge circle had appeared in the wheat it's really really amazing you know hello the the actual crop was laying on the ground and it was so so perfect really he looks exactly like prince charles the circle chris wood found that morning has never been explained during the last 12 years more than 750 large perfectly symmetrical circles some of them as big as 100 yards in diameter have formed overnight in seemingly random fields of wheat corn and other crops the question no one can answer is how did the circles get there honestly they're a lot sloppier looking than i remember hold on to that observation the first circle i found was in 1985 busty taylor is being interviewed in the evening it was the last sort of flight of the night and we were flying around and as the aircraft banked around to the right i looked into the wingtip and there below me was this beautiful quintuplet set a large circle with four smaller ones around it the mummy and the babies and i questioned myself then what on earth did that we were harvesting it was the last day of harvest we went out there with the combines in the morning to cut our last field and um we come across this circle there was no real damage as such the corn was flattened so weird for them it was just odd strange the ground was flattened down i've been here since october 1957 and the first circles we saw were i would say 72 73. that was a small circle about four yards across and then we saw another one the following year about the same size and as the years have gone on we've seen them 12 years yards across with the small ones either side of them. He said the 70s? They vary in diameter. The smallest we've had would be about five meters. The largest would be, I suppose, 15 perhaps. They have a neat, perfect pattern from a center where it's flattened. The edges are very distinct. The most wonderful thing about it is when you actually go out the night before to look for a investigator, there's nothing there. It's just a lovely field of growing corn. And then the following morning, when you get up early in the morning in the first light of day, and suddenly there is the circle. You just can't believe it. All right, let's pause a moment. Okay. Well, what are your thoughts so far? Well, I think part of it is definitely that I maybe, I think I'm understanding right that he, one of the witnesses is talking about like the early 70s. Was that right? Mm-hmm. So, I didn't know that it was going on for such a long time. I think I thought that it was like a phenomenon that happened over like the course of a few months. And then that was kind of it. So, at least for the initial, you know, the ones that sparked this idea and this thing. And then, yeah, the other thing is I always think of, or we always hear maybe that crop circles are these incredible mathematical feats that are so perfect. And, yeah, I just, the video that we just saw, they definitely didn't look very perfect to me. Ooh, sick burn. Yeah. Well, it's funny to call something a symmetrical or a perfectly symmetrical circle because like I didn't major in geometry, but I'm pretty sure circles are symmetrical by definition. That's why they're circles. Yeah, yeah. That's true. And you're right. Some of them are, you know, they're certainly not perfectly symmetrical. But they're, you know, they're very good. Of course. Yes. Yeah. And so in terms of media coverage, this started showing up in the news in 1981, or it started getting public attention. But then when people kind of looked back on their experience, there's people, as we see in these interviews, remembering, encountering them in the early 70s. And a case that people also point to as evidence of these being patterns made, perhaps by UFOs landing and taking off is a story out of Queensland, Australia on a sugarcane farm in 1966, where a bunch of cane was flattened. And some farmers had witnessed some UFO type phenomena. I think flashing lights was one of the things that people talked about, or at least one person did. Okay. Interesting. And so again, it's like one of these things where there's like, if you're reading news from around the world, which people are able to at this point, there are these ideas that kind of are shifting around in people's minds or aliens are visiting different parts of the world. That could happen. And they went to Australia first. Yeah. But what do you make of the fact that this is all happening around Stonehenge? I mean, it's very convenient for this story that whomever, whether they be man or alien, you know, is is cooking up here. I've been to Stonehenge. And, uh, it is very much a tourist trap at this point. So it's hard to feel very mystical there. I think there are like fun druid gatherings that maybe can, can give you that experience, but it's really, it's very big parking lot at this point. I remember going in like 2005 and being very offended that they were selling rock candy and thinking about it now. I'm like, I want to eat the Stonehenge rock candy. Yeah. I mean, that's just good branding, you know, but I mean, I think it makes sense that people would be more likely to be able to view this through a mystical lens because of the proximity to one of these like deeply mysterious aspects of Europe. Yeah. Right. And it does kind of lend some like secondhand credence to the idea of like, oh, well, like, yeah, it's a magical place where there's energy. So of course the aliens are showing up there or as Robert Stack or whoever was working their ass off writing this voiceover for him says at the end, perhaps the ancient druids saw circles left by the aliens and were inspired to make Stonehenge, which is quite a fun idea. That is a fun idea and quite the jump as well. I also, I mean, many people far smarter than me have pointed out that these sort of chariots of the gods ideas, which by the way, the guy who wrote that book just died like in the past year, I think, but you know, that there's like an intrinsic racism to them because the idea is that, that the Egyptians couldn't possibly have figured out how to build the pyramids. So the aliens must have helped them. The aliens must have created Mayan civilization, but then not to like say that Robert Stack is like necessarily in conversation with chariots of the gods. But I like that when we're imagining the druids, we're like, no, they did that themselves. The aliens just kind of gave them the idea. Yeah, it was more of an homage. Totally. Yeah, totally. One cool thing about the area is that there is a formation, not a formation, actually a man-made piece of art, which is probably from the bronze age. So from pre-Roman Britain called the Uffington White Horse, which is this giant ancient pictograph of a horse made by, I think, essentially building a trench into the landscape and exposing the white chalk underneath and keeping it in place. Keeping it free of vegetation. I'm going to send you a picture of that so you can see it. Oh, very cool. Isn't that great? That's really cool. And does definitely kind of hearken to crop circles. What I'm looking at, people, is this, yeah, like a very kind of spindly version of a horse. 360 feet long. Yeah. Oh, gosh. 110 meters. Yeah. And it kind of reminds me of. It reminds me of like, if you connected the dots of a constellation, like it's giving, you know, Big Dipper vibes for sure. Or like, you know, there's probably a better one to compare it to, but. It's giving big cave painting. Totally. Totally. And there's, you know, debate over whether it's maybe some other animal, but I mean, in any case, it's just this big, beautiful piece of art made out of nature. Mm-hmm. And I guess something I would suggest is if humans could make that, then why can't they make circles in some corn? Yeah, completely agree. And more to the point, if humans want to make that, then why wouldn't they want to make circles in the corn? Because one of the things I remember learning actually about cave paintings in my art history classes is that some of them were actually executed in a place that it would be very difficult to get to to paint in or to view the painting, which just kind of suggests the importance of the act, I think, in a way, the fact that it wasn't casual in some of these cases, at least, and that the sort of human drive to create, I mean, I would certainly call all of this art is deep-seated and kind of hard to explain often in the ways that we can maybe explain other human behaviors with more of a cost-benefit analysis kind of a thing. And how. How nice is that? I mean, I guess it's the same kind of thing of like, why do we, like, across time and culture, create religions? You know, it's like, there's a bonding aspect, right? It's like bringing people together around shared ideas and shared reality. I guess, you know, it makes sense that you bring people together to understand the world in different ways by making art about it. That's what we do now. That's what we're doing right now in this gorgeous, gorgeous tapestry. Are we the crop circle we wish to see in the world? I think we are. I think we goddamn are. Okay, let's look at, let's look at some of our seriologists here in this episode. Let's skip to eight minutes and 45 seconds, and we're going to watch some. On the same thing, right? Crop circle researchers. Yeah, same Unsolved Mysteries segment. And we're going to hear first from Professor Archie Roy of Glasgow University. There are quite a number of them. There is the frankly unacceptable one of circles being formed by hundreds of hedgehogs all marching around in circles. Another one is that they are the footpad marks of flying saucers. Another is that they are due to the downdrafts of helicopters or that they are caused by whirlwinds or that they are hoaxes by human beings. I like that he started with the hedgehogs. Yeah. I think that it's very reasonable for a person to say, well, these are hoaxes because they look so artificial. But I don't think that the hoax theory can be held very strongly because there are so many of these circles. Now in eight or nine years, they've logged about 700, 250 this year, this summer alone. The amount of time that will have to be spent by a very big team of people making those circles is getting quite enormous. I simply don't see the hoax theory. I don't see the hoax theory as a very strong contender. As part of a televised experiment, British military personnel attempted to create an artificial crop circle. What? That's what the military is doing in England. Something mechanical is used to flatten the crop. I mean, I guess the military maybe doesn't have anything better to be doing, and may that be true. Honestly, good use of military crop circles. That is mechanically made, or it is a naturally created one. They made a Pac-Man. When we examine a naturally created circle, the portion of plant that just comes out of the ground must be softened, bent over, and then hardened up again. So not only is the mystery in the circle itself, but what is it that is softening the plant, bending it over, and then hardening up again? Skinny little mustache. This is a real mystery. Vincent Price. Yeah. If the circles are not a hoax. Okay, let's pause. So this is interesting, too, because now we're seeing so many crop circles proliferating in the late 80s, and the naturally occurring observation that maybe this is just a human-created hoax, and then the crop circleologists are saying, no, no, no, even if some of these are hoaxes, I can tell which ones of them are hoaxes because they are different. Ah, okay. Okay, maybe that accounts for the sloppiness that I noticed in the previous video. Well, I mean, if you were committed to crop circles being hoaxed, alien-created, then you could certainly say that. Sure. And I'm committed to that. Let's see. Okay, I have another. I have so much fun stuff on this one. Ah! Oh, God, the cat was scratching his ear, and his foot was bonking the glass. I was horrified that there was someone at your door. Yeah, I thought someone was knocking on the window within that creepy way men do. Oh, that's scary. That's really scary. You know, I stay up and I read. I read all my stories about froggers meeting people that are living in people's houses without them knowing. That's my bedtime story. And the other night there was all these scratching sounds, and I was so freaked out. And I was like, where are they coming from? But then I figured out that there was a possum in our compost bag outside. So it was really a great, a great surprise. And it all ended up really good because he was a beautiful boy. Aw. I don't know. I don't know if he was a boy, but. Well, you know. Possums actually can see 27,000 genders. Yeah. And may we all. Like mantis shrimp. Okay. I'm going to read to you from, of course, that most wonderful publication, Skeptical Inquirer, from the winter 1992 issue. And, of course, our pal Joe Nickel. Ah, I knew. I knew it was going to be. Saw some people acting silly across the pond and said, I'm going to get in on this one. God, I love Skeptical Inquirer. I do get the digital magazine. I don't. I should get it. You should. Okay. So the seriologist we heard from talking about the difference between man-made and authentic crop circles was Pat Delgado. And he, at the time this issue of Skeptical Inquirer has come out, has just co-authored a book with another seriologist, Colin Andrews, about crop circles. And they're also heavily featured in this Unsolved Mysteries episode. Is Joe Nickel in it? Joe Nickel is not in the Unsolved Mysteries episode for some reason. He's not in it because he was in the one that we did when you were on our show doing Spontaneous Human Combustion. So I thought maybe they would have brought it back. Yeah, which I loved doing that one. That was fun. And I was very glad that they had him on. But no, this one is skeptic free. And there were three books on crop circles that came out in 1989 alone, according to this article. Wow. Which really also speaks to how well publishing was doing. Yeah. So this article gets into the idea that they're like a weather phenomenon. And there's another theorist who's put together the idea that they're coming from a phenomenon similar to globe lightning, but involving plasma somehow. I don't understand all the words in it. But it's interesting how, you know, there's patterns that start emerging. And what people also point out is that there's more and more with each passing year, like exponentially so. And they're increasing. And they're increasing in complexity. Okay. Perhaps because the aliens are, you know, trying to communicate more and more complex messages with us. Or perhaps because, you know, it's things escalate when there's a fad. And perhaps this is a human driven fad because it's getting a lot of attention. Well, unlike the aliens, I would think would be smart enough to know that we are not getting it. You need to make it simpler, not harder. Right. And what are we supposed to be getting from it? We're like, do your math homework. There are also people studying crop circles who think that quite a lot of the crop circles are based on human driven hoaxes. But again, there's this continued belief that even if some of them are imitations, it's like a copycat crime in a way. And they're all based on something real. I mean, it is a lot of crop circles like that was that number was a lot higher than I was expecting. And I understand why people. Would would think that at least some of them are legit because they're happening in different locations, too. So that also, you know, it always makes it a little less easy to designate something as a hoax. Yeah. And we have one of the academics that we heard from arguing that it would be too huge a team of people required to do all of this. And what occurs to me is that if it is a human driven hoax, then these people don't have to be. Communicating about it. Yeah. You know, it's something more like a meme and the way that, you know, trends spread today, which we can observe very easily on social media where people don't have to talk to each other in order for an idea to catch on as long as it's picked up by media outlets, because then it can spread quickly and easily and, of course, much quicker and easier now than it did back then. But in the closing narration of this segment, Robert Stack is like, even more crop circles have been reported since we aired this segment, including outside. Of Britain for the first time. And it's like, yeah. Yeah. Because you aired. Because you aired it. That's why that happened. It does also like it reminds me of the whole conspiracy theory thing where it's like, you know, how could so many people be keeping a secret at the same time? And it is kind of like, how could so many people be making crop circles and also keeping it quiet? And maybe they're not. You know, maybe it's just not getting any coverage because they're telling guys at the pub and then the next. Day, the guys are like, well, I'm not like calling the news about it. I'm just going to slap Tommy on the back and buy him a beer because that was a lot of fun. Let me read this quote from the Skeptical Inquirer. Few would have underestimated the seriologist's will to believe had they known of the crop message incident of 1987. The message written in the typical flattened crop style and with the words all run together read, we are not alone. Delgado told readers of Flying Saucer Review at first sight, it was an obvious hoax, but prolonged study makes me wonder of the crop circles. He said, maybe these circles are created by alien beings using a force field unknown to us. They may be manipulating existing Earth energy or the beings may be terrestrial ones laboring by the sweat of their brows. That's Joe Nickel again, of course. The message is really fun. And also, wouldn't the aliens have written? You are not alone. Like, let's use our heads, everybody. That's a great point, Sarah. That's a very good point. Unless the aliens are like, maybe there are aliens that are alien to both humans and us. Yeah. Wow. They're alien aliens. Or it's bullshit. Or that. Yeah. So we also have the issue that they happen overnight, right? They happen unobserved. Because if you could. Catch an alien doing it, then you could, you know, have an alien. And so farmers, you know, we'll wake up and come out in the morning and see a crop circle and say, well, I'll be goddamned. And this article continues. Not only does the circle forming mechanism seem to prefer the dark, but it appears to specifically resist being seen. As shown by Colin Andrews is Operation White Crow. Come on, you guys. Wow. This was an eight night vigil maintained by about. Sixty seriologists at Cheesefoot Head, a Prime Circles location. Cheesefoot Head. Beginning June 12th, 1989. Yes. Winner of the most English location award. Cheesefoot Head. It sounds lovely. I have to say. It's gorgeous. Hey, I mean, in Portland, there's Cornfoot Road by the airport. Again, gorgeous. Yeah, gorgeous. I hope I never get cornfoot, though. Not only did the phenomenon fail to manifest. Itself in the field under surveillance, but although there had already been almost 100 formations that summer with yet another 170 or so to occur, not a single circle was reported for the eight day period anywhere in England than a large circle and ring. The very set that being swirled in the same direction seemed to play a joke on Meaden by upsetting his hypothesis, because interestingly, researchers will hypothesize that, well, it always goes clockwise and then the next circle will be counterclockwise. and things like that keep happening. Okay. A lark circle and ring was discovered about 500 yards away on the very next day. And then we have another quote unquote, top secret operation, Operation Blackbird, another surveillance operation using, I believe, the help of the actual military, including their infrared surveillance equipment. Putting it to good use, I see. And things are really escalating. And so in 1991, something really fun happens, which is that two guys come forward and say that they were the ones who did the first crop circles in 1978. Nobody noticed them for three years. And they got the idea when they were at the pub, having had a few beers, and had heard about the case out of Australia, where the idea was that the cane had been bent down by a flying saucer and thought that they would make a circle out in the field for a laugh. And so they did. And then they just kept doing it. And we're going to watch some news coverage about it from the time, because I just really love that this is where the story is leading us now. Yeah. And it's just so interesting that it wasn't the first. Yeah. Well, and then, of course, there's the question of what is art? Art is intent. What are crop circles? Are crop circles intent? Where did those initial ones come from? And were those previous attempted hoaxes, were they accidental? Or, you know, because it's like the thing is like grass or corn or whatever, especially old dead corn can get pushed down by all sorts of things for all kinds of reasons. And a lot of these phenomena only become phenomena when people start looking for them. Yeah. And I would also venture to say that if you're just walking through your field and seeing a bunch of corn pushed down without the aerial view, you're not seeing that it's forming like a truly meaningful pattern. Like, I'm sure you could see that it is circle-esque, but beyond that, it'd probably be hard to like fully actually visualize what you're seeing as something that fantastical. Right. Exactly. Because they're designed to be seen from a distance, from a hill. So vantage is important, but ideally aerially, which is how we get to see them now. Because, of course, there are still many lovely crop circles to this day. That's wild. I don't know who all's making them, but I'm glad that they are. Hats off to you on this week of our Lord, April Fool's Day. I have my fingers crossed that somebody is going to write in and say, "I like to listen to your shows while I'm making crop circles." Oh, man, that would be so cool. I would love to meet somebody that did this. Maybe we should do this. Maybe we should be the change we wish to see. Although I'd also like to know about best practices for doing crop circles in a way that doesn't interfere with anybody's crops, ironically. Yeah, because I don't want to take away any income from our already, you know, underserved farming community. Yeah. But, you know, crop circles, corn mazes. What about a crop circle corn maze? I feel like we could hit up some local haunts, you know, like some of the seasonal Halloween farms and see if they'd be interested. Yeah. What about a crop circle corn maze with aliens in it? That would be so cool. Yeah. That would be sick. Okay. We're onto something here. I mean, we've long discussed having a farm in which there is a haunted house, so maybe this is the obvious extension of that plan. Yeah. There's a lot of potential. Because there's a lot of pumpkin patches, and there's a lot of haunted houses, but there aren't that many haunted pumpkin patches, at least, that I've seen. No, it's usually, like, the corn maze down the way. Right. Or, well, you know, a lot of times the corn maze itself is not haunted, which I always feel is quite tragic. Yeah. It's just a regular corn maze, but. Any maze can be haunted by the spirits of the people who got frustrated when, or the people who took their boyfriends who were too dumb to figure it out. Amongst the corn. Okay. Let us watch Coast to Coast. Let's get some breaking news. Oh, fun. A Coast to Coast breaking news. It's 1991, and Britain has been haunted by crop circles for ten years. Hell, yes. Okay. Yeah. This is not Art Bell's Coast to Coast, tragically. This is just a normal news show. Okay. For southeastern England. I know. Bummer. It's all right. That's why we're not listening to The Chase by Georgiou Moroder right now. Okay. Oh, I love this theme song. Wow. Good evening. Experts are tonight divided over claims by two men from Hampshire that they're responsible for the South's famous crop circles. How exciting. Dave Chorley and Doug Bauer say they created the strange patterns with nothing more than a wooden board and a length of rope. I remember this. The men decided to reveal their hoax when they heard the government was planning to finance research into the circles. But some scientists remain convinced the circles are not man-made. I shall be talking to one such expert in just a moment. Oh, there he is again. This is a report from Graham Bowd. Little mustache guy. If their story's true, Dave Chorley and Doug Bauer are probably the most successful hoaxes of all time. The pair, who both live in Southampton, claim to have made more than 200 corn circles throughout the South of England. And that's what I call success. According to them, the hoax began as a bit of harmless fun 13 years ago. Since then, the patterns have become more elaborate. Many thought they were made by alien spacecraft. Some scientists have devoted their life's work. to the search for a natural explanation. Others have written best-selling books on the subject. Mr. Chorley and Mr. Bauer say everyone was conned. And the newspaper which published their story says it spent a week verifying their claims. For the first three years, nothing happened at all, and we realized that we were putting them in fields that the public couldn't see. And we then had to find a slope or a dip in the land that the motorists could see. Smart. We decided on the punch bowl that she's put ahead. And it was only a few hours before the first reports were coming through about the circle that was found in the punch bowl that she's put ahead. The men are scornful of the self-styled experts who've camped out at known circle sites in the hope of filming the unexplained phenomenon. I can't understand anybody of that intelligence walking in and making something of flattened corn and shapes in cornfields, quite honestly. Had it been us ordinary laymen and gone, I think we'd have sussed it out within a year. The men say they planned their designs with geometric precision. What a fun hobby for you and your best friend. They set out to show how they did it, carrying the tools they've used for thirty years. Yeah, true. Watched this time by the world's press, the Japanese were especially curious about this strange art form. Mr. Chorley and Mr. Bauer went to work, spiraling outwards to make their crop circle. So they're showing them doing it. The secret, they say, is flattening the corn halfway up the stem. With just like rope and a piece of wood. And that's what they did, basically. Walking by day was a luxury for them. Normally they did it by the dead of night. Next day they returned to join the experts. We used to infiltrate their ranks when they came up to look at the circles that we'd done. That's some wire that he's using to hold some string to kind of make sure that everything is geometrically correct. I don't fully understand it because I'm not good with visual spatial stuff, but it's to help make the crop circles. I'd rather be out in one of these fields at midnight or two in the morning. I'd rather be out in one of these fields and have a week away and then say the France or something. Because anyone that's not been in one at midnight in an English countryside and you're doing a few beers and a couple of cheese rolls, absolutely wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. But the circle gurus are not so easily put off. Colin Andrews, who studied them for years, was convinced that this was not like the others. Oh no, here's Colin Andrews who studied them for years. Oh, he's going to pass. The plants are broken, they are rough, the grain is on the floor, there's no symmetry here whatsoever, it's extremely ragged, extremely ragged, and it is obviously a hoax. So is it a hoax or an unexplained phenomenon? It seems tonight that the issue is far from settled. Except that it basically is. Almost all the corn has been harvested. This final circle, if it is to be that, lacks the precision of many of the others. It looks as if the controversy is far from over. Graham Bowd, Coast to Coast, Sussex. Well, back from watching that demonstration, corn circle expert Patrick Delgado from Oldsford in Hampshire. Mr. Delgado, you are not convinced then by the hoaxes? No, I'm not, except I'm convinced that it's a hoax. Corn circle expert. Is there no way at all, deep in your heart of hearts, that they could be telling the truth? Uh, I, no, I can't. Does he think they're not telling the truth? Um, they've endeavoured. Yes. I suppose they've done their very best to try to convince us. Just say you think that some of them aren't hoaxes. That feels like a smarter angle. But it failed. What I've seen today, out of that farm, I had a look at it, along with Colin Andrews, and all I could see was that the crop had been pushed down, and there were things about it that I could see that it was man-made. Now, you see, with respect, you do have a bit of a vested interest in keeping all this going, because you make money out of writing books. Oh, no shit. Well, you're making it sound very mercenary. What, what, what do you think of our, our crop circle, guys? I mean, what fun, what fun. I do think it's just I, you know, I love a hoax that doesn't have a ton of baggage, you know, and aside from the maybe the people who spent a lot of time investigating this and the the resources spent by the government, you know, it's not a it's not something that's really causing a ton of harm. It's causing wonder. I like wonder. I like when two guys hang out and do something together. And it just seems like a like, it must have just been really exciting to do this and like, wait for a response, right? Like, that's always something I think is so interesting about people that create hoaxes is like that between the time you commit the act of the hoax, and then the time in which the hoax is discovered and the coverage of the hoax starts. Like, I don't know. I think that that just must be such an interesting feeling to be waiting for that. I mean, we all have felt it a little bit when we're like, doing a prank of some kind between like laying the prank and waiting for the person to, you know, interact with the prank in some way. But I just can't imagine doing something I have much too bad of anxiety to actually do something like this. But I do appreciate that they came out and stopped a bunch more government funds. being dedicated to understanding. Yeah, it feels like they were like, okay, this has gone too far. So I think that's cool. Yeah. And it does feel very in keeping with a pattern that we've seen many times now in the conspiracy theories of today, where, you know, information comes out that should really debunk the phenomenon or like kind of provide answers to this mystery that people have been trying to solve. And the very people who seemed most invested in solving the mystery are like, No, no, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's I understand that it's really, really hard. If you've dedicated that much time in your life to just fully I mean, it's like your books are already in circulation. It's like, you know, there are times like with, with our shows that new information comes out. And I'm like, that what I said is no longer true. And it doesn't feel good. I don't like it. And if you know, I had written entire books about a subject, it would be, you know, it's pretty difficult to, to fess up to that. And so I get it. Yeah, exactly. And that if there if there is something mysterious happening out there, or if extraterrestrials are trying to contact us to help us, which is a very hopeful idea, then that's not negated by the fact that equally miraculously, two guys are having a laugh. Because also, it's nice to think that like, you know, aliens aren't putting so much energy into making art in Hampshire. And like coming all the way here to not give us any particularly useful message, just like give them some circles. They love circles. Yeah, it's just the sidewalk chalk of the great beyond. You know, it's, I don't know, I do think that there would be easier ways to communicate. I mean, unless we just cannot speak any kind of overlapping language. So they're trying to talk to us in math, which I think is what people think about this. As like a very crude interpretation, that would be nice. Well, and one of the questions that people also have is like, wow, some of these crop circles are like, pretty mathematically sophisticated, like surely doesn't that point to extraterrestrial intelligence? And it's like, yeah, maybe it points to nerds, maybe, but also maybe the people who do it, like are really into math. And also, by the way, the reason that they come forward about this at all is that Doug Bauer's wife, grows suspicious that her husband is spending so much time out on Friday nights. Interestingly, these crop circles only tend to appear on Saturday mornings, at least the ones that these two guys make, because this is the night that they go out to the pub. And there's a lot of mileage on the car. And so she thinks he's having an affair. Wow. And so he has to come clean. Wow. And tell her that he's been making crop circles. That is amazing. Oh, man. So they didn't really come out because of the government funding. They came out because he didn't want to get yelled at by his wife again. Well, let's call it a little bit of both. Yeah. And they just, and what the story ends in is, you know, a phenomenon that has outlived its creators. And also that I think took off because it wasn't entirely created just by these two guys, right? They were acting off of stories. They were acting off of stories they had heard elsewhere. Some of which also I think were probably inevitably human created as well. Although, of course, you know, there's lots of things that happen when people aren't looking that we don't necessarily understand intuitively in the natural world and that we can only find the answers to by studying more. But I just, I love that clip where they're talking about it being just delightful and fun and you have a couple of beers and cheese rolls and you're out in the moonlight in the wheat field with your rope and your piece of wood. I love that clip. But, you know, everyone's also entitled to their secrets and their private thoughts and their private life, I guess. So I also respect it in a way. That's true, too. But if I'm going to marry someone for love, I want to be making crop circles with them. Not every night, but, you know, at least once, unless they're scared of the dark or something. And, like, maybe she could just come out one night and just be like, I want to know what you do. I want to know about what really lights you up. I think that could have been nice, but. Yeah. And she could just, as I feel about baseball, come have a beer and read The New Yorker. Yeah, yeah. And be supportive that way. But maybe she was no fun at all. So it's hard to say. Or maybe she was super fun. Like, too fun. And everyone was fun. Yeah. Maybe everyone's gay in this story. Maybe she is fun and gay. What do you think she would be doing with her best friend on Friday nights? You know, we have no data on her. We have no data. Yeah. But just if I'm going to imagine. Something out of nowhere, let's say line dancing. It was 1991 after all. What immediately jumps to mind for me is looking at tide pools. Yeah. Looking for, like, little critters in tide pools. Well, we are near the ocean. Yeah, exactly. And then maybe they, like, play a little, like, they, like, create a little family of all the different creatures. And then they, like, take pictures of them like the Cottingley fairies. You know, the thing about Wuthering Heights is that it's made me want adaptations of all these sort of. Prestige costume drama novels where everyone is wearing latex and having sex the whole time. And so when you said tide pools, I was like, did they see any tide pools in Persuasion? Then I was like, sexy Persuasion. That could be good. That could be really good. Yeah. Well, anyway. So this is this is a this is a tale of of British people and the things they do. And I find it as with the Cottingley fairies, as you just mentioned. Very, very, very charming and nice and great that the motive that no one predicted who was in this sort of paranormal research area when this phenomenon started was that that the people who did it, whether alien or not, were doing it for fun. I know for friendship and fun is the motive, fun and friendship and doing and making something under the moonlight. And I was looking at some Reddit discussions of crop circles and, you know, which I love to do for any. Kind of paranormal thing. And one of the questions was, what happened to crop circles? And the answer is, we still have them. They're still around, but they're just not a craze the way they were back then. You know, I think that the debunking of them certainly became something people could point to as an answer, although that didn't stop us from growing up watching creepy segments on History Channel shows about crop circles. And what did they mean, despite the fact that we already knew? But also, we don't know who's. We haven't made all of them over the years. And the question of how an idea like this spreads around and why and whether there are kind of different human motives that we can see in the people who create them is all very interesting. And I would like to know more about all of that. You know, the story is by no means sewn up. Yeah. And one of the jokes that people made in this thread, which I feel is somewhat true, although I don't not not totally true, is that kids today don't have to bend over corn in order to hoax. adults. They can just do it on their phones. They can like use ai to do it at this point yeah but i just know that there are pranksters out there right now hanging out in the corn in the moonlight and if you haven't tried it maybe this is the night what a beautiful thing to do i i really want to give this a shot yeah i think that you know the meme thing really makes sense putting it like that and it's just like there are still a lot of mysterious elements to this which is really fun you know i think it's nice when we talk about something like this and it doesn't end up being tidy because you know both of us love some paranormal stuff right in our lives and that we have an answer to some of it which is like why did it show up in southern england yeah at this specific time period and why around stonehenge and it's funny to realize that the answer is because these guys lived near stonehenge and they could only get so far in a night it's like such i mean okay so there are two possibilities here you know it would be like either they had heard about farmers finding these patterns of bent over crops and then they were like okay like we could do something like that or they just came up with it as an idea and if they just came up with it as an idea that's really really brilliant and really yeah very very very cool well and we know they'd heard about this the story in australia but i don't think that there was any media super locally about this kind of thing i think it's the kind of thing that once it became a phenomenon farmers locally were like yeah i kind of remember something like that yeah you know yeah but but i think that they were inspired by like news stories from elsewhere in the world okay see and then there's the mystery right it's like who are the originals and i think if i was gonna go full skeptic i would say that there was something explainable that happened that wasn't actually creating such perfect shapes and that it was like a memory of like yeah i saw these really strange like patterns of my crops being bent down but from that point like it wasn't necessarily that they had this evidence that it was so perfect but then you know you can extend that out into being something else i don't know i'm not sure yeah i mean there's there's more meat on the bone because the australian ones were like seen from above uh no they were noticed by i think it was just one that was noticed by a farmer okay all right but again it's like something that sort of solidified into this thing that could be understood and replicated right in these cases around stonehenge where it's like it's a circle in the corn or the wheat yeah typically and also what do you think about making a perfect circle if you have rope it's like the same method of making a perfect circle if you have rope it's like the same method mechanism by which you know you draw a circle with a compass in geometry class yeah totally yeah and that that was something i was thinking he's like how could you really possibly achieve this and it's like actually it's what you use a string so many things that were like how could you possibly achieve this complicated like outrageously difficult act and it's like well you just tie a piece of string to something and walk around yeah yeah duh and it's like it's hard and it's like it's hard to be like you know what we actually underestimate people with our theories because they're smart they know things we know different things from each other things that would seem magic to somebody else yeah who doesn't have your your background of knowledge even if it's maybe something that seems pretty simple to you and we like to have fun in ways that kind of leave behind something beautiful or at least mysterious it's like who why did we make that horse i suspect it was fun yeah yeah exactly and it does make sense like it you can really account for the different ways that the circles looked meaning like the like you know the one guy was like well these stocks are bent down in a different way and and that would be because people were hearing about these crop circles and a different technique and had a different technique they like looked at that and the person was like how could this ever be made and they're like well i'm a smart person who understands math and i could make this but of course you have to come up with your own technique they're probably not doing the same technique they're probably not doing the same technique as our two best friends with the rope and the thing because they're hearing about it they're not typically seeing it the people who are replicating these yeah perhaps and so it makes sense it's it's just like a meme there's more than one way to bend a corn and every corn is a glamorous woman every corn is a glamorous woman thank you for bringing that back up just in case it was out of anyone's head since last we're back in the corn every corn is a glamorous woman yeah yeah and i also i do feel bad for these guys who staked so much of their identity on being crop circle researchers and yeah having it be not some guys but like isn't it exciting to find out an answer and the answer is that it was two guys having some fun i love that the answer was guys having fun that's like never the answer yeah let's enjoy this one yeah the answer to the diatlov past mystery wasn't some guys had fun no it wasn't it was an avalanche yeah not fun not fun at all um but yeah i i think it is it does just remind me of a meme you got a template and everyone's gonna do something different with it and so it goes on and on and on yeah and it's like if you i i do feel that it's always a good idea a lot of skeptics don't do this and if only for self-preservation in the future you know just leave the door open for all possibilities like you and i we're gonna leave the door open that there were some aliens what if the aliens were inspired by those guys having fun there you go and they were like we could have some fun i hate my wife and then they went to their own planet and made crop circles there and drank alien beer which to them was just beer yeah just it's just it's plasma i don't know yeah i don't know i think that leaving the door open for wonder is never a bad thing i think making a career out of a mystery might be a a mystery might be shaky ground because uh you know i also respect it i like people who are passionate about things and really go for it so everyone in this story has a passion yeah and uh it worked out better for some worse for others and uh i just wish everyone the best i like that some people just thought to enjoy themselves in a way that nobody could have necessarily imagined you know i love it when any of us think of something that we want to do and we know it's something that we want to do and not what we're we've absorbed from like cultural messaging that we should be wanting to do because it's just you know who would have thought of that and where did that idea even come from and then you're doing it i would love to hear that conversation where they came up with the idea in the pub like that would be some precious yeah audio to me i know that it's like we've made way too many tv shows about too many historical events but this one probably does need to exist yeah i could be just like with everyone from hot fox yeah it'd be perfect it's already called the wheat circles wheat uh wheat chelsea uh you do you do a very mysterious show called american hysteria what topics have you covered lately over there so at the point that this episode will be out for all of you i will have just put out our two-part series on the cultural history of dinosaurs and their relationship to american popular culture as well as american culture in general and how uh we interpreted the discovery of fossils to mean so many different very american things uh and they were used to bolster popular support of capitalism is one of the things incredible how we made that work i know right yeah life finds a way what topics have you covered that perhaps someone who likes crop circles would enjoy well you know that alien abduction series we mentioned i think the episode that you did of spontaneous human combustion is a really nice companion to this as well i mean gosh it's like we've just done a lot of work on this and i think it's going to be a lot of fun i think we've done so many things around the paranormal i am both a skeptic up the paranormal and a believer in the paranormal so anytime we get to delve into those topics is a lot of fun i believe the paranormal deserves you know adequate research yeah you know yes definitely definitely and uh also space for the mysterious because when we lose the mysterious things get pretty stale and you're not out in the moonlight with your boys stay curious people stay by curious everybody yep and that was our episode thank you so much for listening thank you for being here thank you for being an april fool a wise fool a fool for love we of course have a wonderful bonus episode to share with you and we'll see you next time bye this month it is the orca report with our deep sea correspondent brianna bowman there's been a lot of orca news in the last few years and don't worry this bonus is two hours long and we had such a good time making it for you and if any of you want to hear more about fishery science specifically let us know brianna's very excited to share more of that with us we are putting together another listener episode i don't know if you caught the one that we put out last holiday season but it's one of my favorite things that i have i can't really say made lately because i told miranda to make it but i got to listen to all of the voice memos that you sent in about where you're from where you call home and it meant so much to me to get to help stitch that all together and to hear from you all and so i decided that we should do that again summer is approaching kind of this will be our last episode for june and i went through a few prompts before i realized i had kept coming back to the same basic theme which is that i want you to tell me about what you love and what you love whether it's a hobby or a person or a place or an inanimate object i'm not going to do a full liza minnelli impression but i am thinking that um a fact that you think more people should know i talked in this recent bonus episode i think about something i learned on an episode of ologies it has never left my mind which is that when sharks eat something they can't digest they can just reverse their stomachs like a tote bag that they're trying to get muffin crumbs out of and i just think that's cool great i want everyone to know that not everyone wants me to tell them that but that's okay so something that you love whether it's a feeling a place a thing the moment when you take the first bite of a really good apple um a particular moment of the day anything and everything i just want to hear about it and so do the rest of us so you can send a voice memo try and keep it about three minutes or less i know that's a very long time but i just want to hear about it and so do the rest of us so you can keep it about three minutes or less i know that's a very long time but i just want to hear about it and so do short amount of time but we want to listen to as many of these as we can we do always listen to every submission that we get but we want to fit in as many as we possibly can and you can send those to sloppy and alive at gmail.com that's our email address for these submissions it's a stepford wives reference sloppy and alive s-l-o-p-p-y-a-n-d-a-l-i-v-e at gmail.com and we will listen to them and enjoy them and we're going to keep those submissions open until i don't know let's just say through april if you're listening to this and it's no longer april technically it's over but listen i'm not huge on rules so take that as you will so that's what we're putting together we're so excited to share it with you and we're so excited to keep heading into the spring you should know that miranda zickler is our producer and our editor and that nicole artiz is our administrative assistant and i am so thankful to them both and chelsea weber smith was our guest go listen to american hysteria that's chelsea's show you can listen to it wherever you find good podcasts it is this show's sassy outdoor sibling we are the indoor one and i love getting to make shows with chelsea i love getting to share our tween fixations with you and that's it thank you so much for listening i can't wait to hear from you and if you want to send something in but you don't get it together to do it and too much time passes and you overthink it like i would that's okay i can still appreciate your thoughts from far away and i'm so thankful for them too see you in two weeks bye you