Creator Eric Kripke on Ending ‘The Boys.’ Plus, ‘Top Chef’ Season 23, Episode 10 and ‘East of Eden’ Trailer.

I'm pro-football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of, major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story. Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins is not prescribed Caplida Lumateperone. I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplida Lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplida is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common. Caplida is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects. Ask your doctor about Caplida. Learn more at Caplida.com or call 888-788-8888. This episode of The Watch is presented to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime Same Day Delivery has your back, getting you exactly what you need, fast and reliably, so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same Day Delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, welcome to The Watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. I still have no official title at The Ringer, but I'm joined by someone who does. Kaya McMullen, welcome back to the big chair. I promise you we're working on it still. Maybe like three years from now. What do you think my title would be? Person most desiring parking validation. We love to call people a talk strategist lately, so like I think we could probably grab you one of those. What do you think my talk strategy is? Show up a little late, unprepared, talk a lot. Watch like three trailers before we get going. Just did. Yep. Well, just to bring people up to speed, I have to sit in the big boy chair today. It's not very comfortable for me. I'm not wearing enough layers. I'm not wearing a hat, but Chris is continuing his drinking tour of the East Coast, and we miss him dearly. But thank you for stepping up. We are going to talk about a bunch of headlines, some new stuff. And then later in the show, I will be joined by Eric Kripke, who is the showrunner and developer of the Amazon series, The Boys. The Boys will be ending next week. Wow. So we're talking to him in anticipation of the finale. We haven't actually done that interview yet, so I can't do that thing where I say what it's going to be like, but I think it's going to be pretty good. I think it'll be nice. And I will let people know, I intend to have the first part of the interview be generally spoiler-free because I am curious about what it's been like running the show essentially for a decade. It was announced in 2016. Yeah, I know. I was going to say, that's really rare these days. It's so rare. And he has gone through so many permutations of not just the show, but of the industry itself. So we'll talk generally about that, and then we'll pivot into some more specific things. And Kaya, I know that you wanted to join me for Top Chef Talk. Yes. You've been sidelined from these quick fires for too long. I know. I've made my way back from Last Chance Kitchen. You did. You did. You're back on the big show. And now you have to handle dessert, just like Rhoda. Okay. But the first thing that I really want to talk about with you is, this might seem like an after dark thing, but I promise it's not. So this week, as I'm sure you know, the NFL schedule was announced. I know you've been following this very, very closely. It was announced that my beloved Philadelphia Eagles will be playing in my beloved city of London against the Jacksonville Jaguars on Sunday, October 11th. Perfect time of year to go to London. That's kind of the time I'm always there. But I don't know if I will be there this year for a number of reasons. But here's what I want to say to you. I want to speak it into the universe. Okay. Let's do this. I think the Watch podcast needs to be boots on the ground for this event, one way or another. Of course. I think we could talk culturally about this game. I think that we could, I don't know, the Jacksonville part, maybe we talk about Jason Mendoza from Parks and Recreation. No, I'm sorry, from The Good Place. Like that, we could bring TV into it. I'm pretty sure we could wrangle an invite to the industry set. They will be filming the final season then. I think we could do it. Or at least I think Chris could do it because he spoke more consistently positively about the last season than I did. Shout out to the fellas. What's the third thing? What's the third heat that's going to get us there? And I'm not above asking people to email suggestions or to come up with boondoggles to get us there. What's the email address? I don't have access to this email account. Thewatchatspotify.com. These emails will be read. Not by me. No. So if you would like to continue, and I say you generally, comments that people like to make about me, you can do that in the email safely. Our email inbox is very positive, I will say. We get some really, we get lots of thoughtful stuff. But you also, you're the filter. Yeah. It's very nice. Well, Chris and I. Chris and I filter. You guys protect me. One thing I've always been curious about is why, why do we do, why do we play NFL games abroad? I think they are attempting to grow the game. Okay. And during my time there, the last two years, when I would sort of see sad-faced, hungover-slash-on-their-way-to-getting-drunk Jaguars or Titans fans wandering around Fitzrovia, I can't say that I felt like it was making a profound cultural impact. But they do it. And they do it every year. And they've played games in Brazil and Germany and other. The Fantasy Football Podcast went to Dublin last year. Which camera's on? The Fantasy Football Podcast went to Dublin. So why shouldn't. So why not us? What's more fantasy football than this podcast? When's the Pride and Prejudice adaptation going out? Can we make this like a threefer? We need a threefer. A threefer. We need a third thing. Yeah. So we'll do an event. We'll come to your business. I don't. I don't know. I don't know. I don't even work here. So I will do anything. But let's get there. Let's make that a goal. Okay. And. We're putting it out there now. So, okay. So I want to go to the game. Chris wants to go to Visit Industry. And you want to be Pride and Prejudice adjacent. Yeah. I'd like to be on the ground just, you know, assessing. So this is the Netflix series. Yeah. We don't have a new release date for that, do we? It's supposed to be this year. So I feel good. Lace 2026. I think you might be right about this. That feels good for an October release for me. What are your Pride and Prejudice power rankings? Like, what's the definitive for you? I mean, probably the movie. The 2005 movie? Yeah. I've said it before. It's the number one draft pick for movie night in my house. And I've said it before. Your daughters have great taste. Great taste. But it's impenetrable. Because I was like, look, there's a new series coming out. No interest. Absolute no interest. Yeah. And in fact. In fact, like, I can't even be like, look, there's your beloved Mr. Darcy. He's starring in The Miniature Wife. Well, I think that's fine. Yeah, no interest. Who do you think would have to be in the Pride and Prejudice adaptation for them to be like, yes? Sabrina Carpenter. Okay. Do you think we could squeeze her in there? She's not too tall. Could probably fit her in. Okay, so. Did your daughters go and see The Devil Wears Prada 2? They did. And? I think their review was perfect. Everyone looked great. Okay, well, I'm going to go see it this weekend, so. They did not. They did not advocate strongly for the plot. That's fine. But they thought everyone looked great. And I was like, you really understand the assignment. You know what I mean? They get it. The next point of business, you brought this to my attention, is that Netflix, which really is suddenly in the prestige business here, dropped the trailer for this long-gestating miniseries adaptation of John Steinbeck's East of Eden. This is notable because, I mean, notable for a number of reasons. One reason was, I really feel like this has been in development for half a decade, for numerous different. I feel like there's been multiple East of Eden. Wasn't there just a Jude Law East of something? That, I don't know. Hold on. Are we in the Steinbeck-sants? What makes this interesting, there are many things that are interesting about this. The cast is bananas, and we'll get to them. But Zoe Kazan directed this, wrote and directed this, and famously, her grandfather, Elia Kazan, Hollywood legend, directed the 1950s film that James Dean starred in. And the Jude Law property I was thinking about was just a movie titled Eden. Oh. So we have an Edenverse. Do you think they're related? Nope, not at all. This one's just slightly to the east. A group of disillusioned Europeans settle on a remote uninhabited island in the Galapagos. That was the Ron Howard sex movie. Right. And it did about as well as a Ron Howard sex movie would be expected to do. Oh, Sydney Sweeney was in this one. My favorite television actress. Mm-hmm. So what do you think of this trailer? This is bananas cast. Florence Pugh, Christopher Abbott, Mike Feist, Hun Li, who is the best thing. about your friends and neighbors week to week. Kieran Hines, Martha Plimpton, and official friend of the pod, Tracy Letts. Dark. Quite dark. Yeah, you feel dark. You have dark feelings? The lighting was dark. Yeah, like everything these days. So I have not read East of Eden. I read other Steinbeck properties in high school. Yeah. But I mean, I love Florence Pugh, and I would really follow her anywhere at this point. I would say that this is not how I remember the book or the film. That's what people are saying online, because apparently Florence Pugh's character is basically evil personified. And in this, they are kind of girlbossing. Yes. What is what you said? I did say, I did say. I mean, first of all, I think it's important if you're going to be redoing something, you should have a different slant and you should have a new angle, a new entry into it. I do think that it's interesting that in order to film a novel set famously in Steinbeck's beloved Northern California setting, they have gone Central Valley. I'm sorry. For me, it's Northern. I just live down here. Everything above Ojai for you is Northern. Literally, that's really true. But you, you're actually above the Central Valley. Yes. I'd like to apologize to you and to our future governor, Chad Bianco, for that slip up. I think they filmed- Who's Chad Bianco? Isn't he the sheriff who's running for governor? There's so many people running for governor. Listen, could we do a California politics podcast instead? I'd really like to. I am disgusted. Anyway, they've chose to shoot this entire thing quite east of Eden. Yes. In New Zealand. Yeah. And so when they are looking, when Cal and Kathy are looking out over the landscape of America, they are in fact looking out over where the hobbits live in the Shire. Yeah. But. Which I feel like is a bummer because Steinbeck is so, especially that area, Salinas, Lake Valley, Central California, it's so, like, it's basically a character in the books. It is. And. It would be nice for it to be a character in the show. Do you think it's the argument that that Steinbeck's California no longer exists? That's also Matt Mahan, the mayor of Sacramento's whole campaign argument, I believe. Yeah. Bring back Steinbeck so that you have to sort of create it in fantasy in an aggregate and also within tax breaks? Yeah, but I mean, that just, like, that trailer, like, nothing about it. Like, you can recreate California in other locations. Yeah. And you've seen it done many a time. Yeah. That trailer, nothing about that trailer screams that area to me. I've made. My parents live right above the. Above Salinas, like, 30 minutes. Do they? Yeah, so I make that drive, like, quite frequently between L.A. and, like, Northern California. Take the 101. It's a lovely drive. Yeah, nothing. Nothing about that trailer. Brought that back to you? Yeah. Yeah. I've been in this for a number of reasons, but mainly as Netflix's back-to-prestige play. It's interesting because there's this project, Pride and Prejudice, which we didn't even intend to mention, and then just knowing behind the scenes, like, them maneuvering for big literary novels to try to get a hold of those adaptations, that it does seem like a return to what they were doing 10 years ago. It did seem like there was a moment when Netflix was like, why would we even be in this marketplace? We don't need to do prestige. Gourmet cheeseburger. The gourmet cheeseburger. Why do we need to serve steaks? Yeah. Suddenly they're back in the steak business, which made the potential Warner Brothers deal more interesting because then they would just be buying the, in this case, Peter Luger. Sorry, I'm losing the steak metaphor, but it seemed like they would be buying the thing that they were trying, the space they were trying to get back into with HBO. That didn't happen, so now they're making their own HBO shows. So we'll see. Speaking of Warner Brothers, two other small bullet points for you. One, my favorite headline of the day in the trades was, Warner Brothers' Pam Abdi, half of their record-breaking at the box office film team, emphasizes, quote, commitment to bringing Looney Tunes back to the screen. Who said we can't do things in America anymore? I genuinely need to ask you this, Kaya, as our news correspondent. Does Looney Tunes mean anything to you? Do you care? Yeah, I loved Looney Tunes as a child. All right, good. And I'm sure future generations of children also enjoy some Looney Tunes. Well, they won't unless Pam Abdi gets, or Button Gear, and brings Daffy Duck back to the big screen. What was the Will Forte? Yeah, Coyote vs. Acme. Isn't that, is that not Looney Tunes? It is. Is that not in the Looney Tunes verse? I believe it is in the larger Looney Tunes verse, but wasn't that canceled? Yeah, it was canned, but now apparently Pam Abdi's. Renewing her commitment? There's a movie that's already made for you. Do you think that this is connected? You know how one of the reasons why the Ellisons were able to do, Paramount was that they promised Trump and Brett Ratner they could make, they would make Rush Hour 4? Mm-hmm. Do you think that like he wants to bring someone in the administration wants Foghorn Leghorn back on the big screen to like show us how it's done? I would not. I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, great. Great, great, great news. Great. This is another thing you could put on the list of things I will be excited to share with my children that they will have no interest in. Okay. But I look forward to that. Casting announcement for Friend of the Pod, Damon Lindelof's new series, which is called, I believe it is announced as a mini-series. He wrote the pilot with Carly Rae, who worked with him on The Leftovers. And it is based on a novel that has a disturbing premise about child kidnapping. Love it. And he's cast Jodie Comer. I saw that, yeah. I have no notes other than to say that's awesome. Yeah, I love Jodie Comer. Who doesn't love Jodie Comer? Maybe Sandra Oh, but that's only internet scuttlebutt. I don't work here. I can say anything. So the premise is that, she, her child gets kidnapped. And then to get her child back, she must kidnap another child. Oh, that's out there. All right, the book's been published. Yeah. I mean, I saw this on Twitter. I feel like that's like a, like, you know. This is true. Yeah. This is the premise. How do we feel about that for you? Famously, no, don't let a child kidnap. Well, how do I feel about it as an entertainment? Yeah. Or how do I feel about it as a premise if I was forced to do it? Let's do one and two. It's up to you. It's your podcast today. I think it's the people's podcast. I think for number one, I find the idea of Damon taking a really, really grabby, this will move books, this would become a gangbuster, Blumhouse horror movie premise, and doing Damon things to it, making it a longer series, maybe making it more psychologically complicated. I love it. Great. Personally, I think I could do it. Yeah. I think I could. Because, okay, the idea is in order to get my kid back, I have to take someone else's kid. So then at the end of this equation. Then you just give the person their kid back. Well, no, at the end of the equation, do I then have an extra kid? Or do I pay that kid forward to someone else? I think you'll have to watch the series. Who do I swap the kid with? Because I want to be clear about this. Like, I think there's a lie about parenting that I need to be the one to dispel on this entertainment slash fantasy football podcast. And the lie is that once you have children, you love all children. Yeah. I like mine. Yeah. There's some other ones I like. You know what you did, Kyle. Maybe some people are like this once their hearts expand to take in all children. But it's not like when, once you have kids, once you have kids and you hear like a kid screaming on the plane or misbehaving at a restaurant, you then have empathy with the parent. Right. You can still be annoyed by the kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if I got to take one, I'll take one. Kids are everywhere these days. You can just grab them. Their parks are overflowing with them. I love it. I feel like Jodi Comer is like, has not had a great run recently. So I'm excited. Where are we at in the Comerverse? I don't like. What have we been doing? I don't know. Let's pull up the IMDB. That's the problem is that last duel. Oh, she was great in 28 years later. Yeah, she was good in that. You saw that? I couldn't make it through it. Don't tell Chris. I did turn it on. But she was really good in that. But the bike riders was not. Oh my God. Remember her accent in the bike riders? Yeah. That was tough. That was a good moment on the internet. Yeah. Did you watch 28 years later? Yeah. Oh, you guys watch scary zombie stuff all the time. All the time. And do you watch it in the evenings? Then you just sail off to bed untroubled. That's because you're not spending all your nights worried about who's going to kidnap your kid in exchange for their kid. Yeah. It's just, you can't turn it off. It's just, it's incredible. Wonderful. My last point that I wanted to bring up, and this is something that I think will continue to be a point of discussion on this podcast. And Chris and I will get into it as these shows turn up. I believe. In the last week, we had the announcements of release dates or release areas for the second season of two fairly high profile shows. One was Chris Pratt's The Terminalist, which was an action show. I don't remember it. It did, by all accounts, did quite well for them. If you say so. Again, that's what they said to me. And Disney Plus' Ahsoka. Okay. In the Star Wars universe starring. That came out, what, a decade ago? No, the cartoons did. The point is, Terminalist premiered to great fanfare in the year of our Lord, 2022. July 1st, 2022 is when the premiere episode of The Terminalist debuted. Okay. Season two is now been announced to premiere, I believe, in October of 2026. This is a four year gap between seasons one and two. For a show that, I mean, who watched that? Chris. This is why we can talk about it. Well, I mean, this was also part of what appeared to be Amazon Prime's successful strategy of doing pulpy, right-leaning. The Jack Ryan. Manosphere type things. Yeah. Reacher. Reacher. Especially with movie stars. In The Terminalist's defense, there was a spinoff series, prequel series, starring Taylor Kitsch that did premiere last year. So the list was growing over the past few years. But four years is an insane amount of time. of time to do between seasons. Similarly, Ahsoka premiered with my beloved Rosario Dawson in 2023. Okay. Dave Filoni, the now head of Lucasfilm, said that, first of all, he said that of all the Star Wars characters, Ahsoka, comma, his own creation, comma, is his favorite character, which is a bold choice. He announced that season two will be coming in early 27, putting it right in that sweet and entire college career window of four years between seasons. And I guess what I wanted to say was, what are we doing? Like, I understand Chris Pratt's a big actor and has movie commitments. I understand that Chris Pratt at one point was a big actor and has a lot of voiceover commitments. I understand that Disney shows require a lot of post-production, although I didn't think they needed this much. Yeah. They do a lot of it in front of the volume, which fills in the background as you're filming. It just does not seem to me to be a successful strategy to delay that long between the first and second seasons. Yeah. You know, I mean, we're going to be talking to Eric Kripke soon, and there were delays between seasons of The Boys, but there was a global pandemic and a strike. They still managed to get the show out on time. And now that they are able, I'm watching them crank out the pit. Yes. It's literally, like, year after year at the same, like, there's a new season every year. Yes. I'm just like, so what, why can they do that over there and not do that? You can make the point, you can make the argument, I won't, but someone could, that these specific shows are in genres that are challenging to reproduce on the old television model. There's a reason we didn't have action stars starring in these types of global action shows every year back when it was must-see TV on Thursday nights in the 90s. Or Star Wars on TV. That's harder to do. Yeah. The problem is, like, with everything else in this country, we have so radically abandoned the middle, the middle class. Right, right. That the glaring delays here really, really stand out. Well, and in the case of The Terminalist, why are you making a spinoff to your show before you've even made a second season to your show? I don't know. I think you could also say, my understanding is that this has been in the can for a while, and that you could point to institutional changes. Okay. Ah. That Jen Salke departed Amazon, Peter Friedlander took over the programming slate at Amazon, and maybe took some time to make decisions about windows and releases and what the overall plan was. But it's a real problem. And it's a problem that trickled down to, like, we, you just did, we would do it all the time, too, point to The Pit as the example of what you can do. I worry about that a little bit because The Pit perfected the broadcast television show for the month. Yeah. In the modern streaming era. What seems to be the market inefficiency now is the good ongoing drama. Now, this has been something that's been an inefficiency for a while. It's not easy to say, like, hey, we found a succession. We found Mad Men. Like, that's not hard to do. If it was, we would be living in a very different universe. But I do feel like attention strayed so far from those things that we just lack that backbone to our television in a way that is, obviously, those of us who do a weekly podcast are really feeling it. Yeah. I think audiences are feeling it, too. Yeah. It's just, we need to get a little bit more serious here. We have to get serious. Talk to your camera when you say it. I think it's okay. You have standing here. We have to, have to, have to get more serious here. But I'm happy for Chris that his beloved Terminal List is finally returning. He loves it. Does he, did he actually like it? I mean, I think that, I don't want to put words in his mouth. Yes, first of all, I want to put words in his mouth. But I don't feel qualified here. Chris is a pretty easy sell for shows about guys wearing non-burners. Or branded baseball caps carrying guns. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's not that complicated. But I was looking at, like, the 10-year shift in drama series Emmy nominations. And just to realize the way that event series, genre series, and anthology series have just eaten the heart out of what used to be the bread and butter of our television viewing experience. Because 10 years ago, for the purposes of the Emmy conversation, I went to 2015 to do 2025. The 2015 Emmy nominees for Outstanding Drama Series were Game of Thrones. Big genre show. Still managed to make it come out mostly on time. House of Cards, which at that moment was still a year-to-year show. Down Nabby, year-to-year show. Better Call Saul, year-to-year show. Mad Men, the last great year-to-year ongoing drama. Orange is the New Black, year-to-year ensemble show. And Homeland, the same. Like, that was what we were used to having. And you can argue the merits of each one of those shows. But you understood what they did, what your relationship to them could be, and on and on. So fast forward 10 years. And the nominees are Andor, one of the greatest shows of the century, but always two seasons and done. Yeah. With a significant gap. Slow Horses, year-to-year show. Hey. And they are real. They're almost like. Clockwork. They have the trailer for the next season at the end. Yeah. But. I would argue a Slow Horses 10 years ago would not have made it into that category. Yeah. It would be, like, a nice thing to enjoy. It would not have been considered the stake. The backbone of the drama category. The Pit, which we just discussed, deserving. The Diplomat, which I think, quality-wise, you may vary on. But I think that there is a. There's delays, but it is a good-faith attempt to, like, have something going. Severance, see you in 2028. White Lotus. Not the same show year-to-year. And not, you know. And also, you can't always count on it, schedule-wise. Paradise, lots of fun. Deserving? I don't know. And The Last of Us, big genre show, couple years in between. And what's the runway? Like, it's created to end. Yeah. So, some of this is obviously presaging the conversation I'm going to have with Eric, which is just, like, he's really good at making a show that isn't trying to answer a question, but is just trying to keep it going. Mm-hmm. But it. I don't know. Am I drawing too wide of a net here by pointing out these long-season disparities and then railing about the Emmys? And that's another point, too, is that everything is, like, eight episodes now. And it just seems like somewhere along the way, everything got way more expensive and also way more inefficient, which is not, like. Yeah. I don't know, like. And I'm sure it's, like, a combination of, like, lasting COVID effects and lasting strike effects, but, like. It just seems so confusing to me that it just takes so long to do these things and also they cost a lot of money. And then also you get the East of Eden trailer and everything's dark. And filmed in New Zealand. Voice of the people on this one. I think there are a lot of reasons that go into it. And one of them is, of course, like, budgets when you. If you have the Apple strategy, which seems to be, like, if we can get an Oscar nominee to do it, we'll do it. If we can get three Oscar nominees to put in. Put in one scene together. Exactly. Then we'll renew it. Like, Margot's got Money Troubles, which apparently is an ongoing series now. That raises the price. If it's a Star Wars show, if it's a Game of Thrones show, that raises the price and it raises the post-production time. Yeah. All that's baked into it. I continue to think one of the biggest problems is we skipped a generation in terms of teaching people how to make television. Right. This deeply speaks to some of, like, the Writer's Guild stuff a little bit in the weeds. Yeah. But in terms of. Yeah, I mean, I remember that was one of the big discussions the last round of negotiations was like, let's have. Can we have writers back on set? On set to learn how to produce so that you don't have to hire people who have never been on set to run shows and then you ship them to Budapest in control of a $100 million budget and they inevitably fail and then you have to bring in more people to back them up and then you have to shut down production to rewrite the scripts. And I'm not necessarily looking at you, Dune Prophecy, but it could be any of the many Dunes, Prophecy out there that this is not really sustainable. I think it's really notable that The Pit, we're holding up with good reason and celebrating it and the guys who make it, I'll have a little gray in their beard. And literally, they are the guys who made ER. And they were on the shelf for. John Wells was never on anybody's shelf, but, like, Scott Gemmel was like, give me a chance, I'll do it again. Or you have something like Widows Bay right now where you have someone who had lots of reps on Parks and Rec and now. Katie Dippold. is making a really good show. It's a really good example and I wish I could. I wish I could sit here with you and talk about this week's episode, but I had to watch so many episodes of The Boys to catch up. It's okay. I also wish I could sit here with you and talk about this week's episode, but I do. You haven't watched it. Okay, fair. The last point about the ongoing show thing I think it's worth discussing is when network streaming services do stumble on something that is working, they cut it short. Today, this week alone, Netflix announced a fourth and final season for The Night Agent and a fifth and final season for The Lincoln Show. Neither of these are shows that I watch. I watched the first season of The Night Agent. Did you? Did you like it? It was good. The phone rings, right? Yeah, the phone rings and then he has to go save the girl. So it's a horror show. Nothing is worse than the phone ringing. I would say it's a thriller. Okay. I was going to say, when is not watching a show ever stop me? What I can tell about these shows is that they are working in the sense that people enjoy them, they understand what they are, they understand the audience, the audience is good and consistent, production seems to be flowing well enough, they get the shows on the air with regularity in the model that we're talking about, and yet they're ending. And. I think that's when we talk about the inexperience on the writers or production side. It's not inexperience on the streamer side. It's just a disparity in goals. Yeah. Netflix reaches the fifth season of something. And even if there's more creative road or if there's, you know, like in the old days, NBC would be like, this is one less problem for me to keep something going and to keep people tuning in and guaranteeing advertisers a certain thing. Netflix is like, well, now we have five years of the show and we're done. And we'll get to sit in our library forever. Exactly. It's never leaving. Yeah. They don't have to do any kind of costly renegotiations with cast or crew for second contracts or reflecting the success or whatever that may look like for them. And also, it's this weird brain space that they're allowed to occupy, which is we're not, we can be concerned about our current audience of the Lincoln lawyer and we feel bad for them. But we are also measuring their satisfaction. We're measuring their sadness and engagement with the untold millions of future viewers of the Lincoln lawyer who will be in our systems, in our ecosystem, discover a show and be like, sick, five years of it. Yeah. Probably in their algorithms, that's more millions later. Yeah. Like how many people are waiting for the next season of Lincoln lawyer? Versus how many people might discover it and be excited to find it. Oh, great. Another reason not to cancel this month. And that's cheaper for them. So anyway, all of this was this segment of the show that I like to call. Everything is bad. We're screwed. Everything is bad. But everything is bad and nothing works anymore. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime's same day delivery has your back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so that you can actually join in on the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com. Slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas. Terms apply. Before we bring in Eric Kripke, Kaya, your silence on Top Chef has just been too much. We need to talk about Top Chef. I really enjoy this season. Tell me where you're at with it and then we can talk specifically about this week's episode. I will call up the specifics. I don't know why. I was trying to figure this out last night. I don't know why I'm particularly enjoying this season more than others. I don't know. I think it's because there's not like a very clear frontrunner, I guess. Yeah, there is. You could argue after this week there is, but I know what you mean. There's not someone who is doing donuts, not literally making donuts, dunking on everyone week after week. Yeah, exactly. Like there's not a Buddha where it's just like, and like that can be fun to watch where you're like, wow, this guy is just like a master of his craft. And like he's just like dominating. But I mean, the key to reality TV competition shows is kind of. It's kind of that you need to not know what's going to happen next. And also I like, I feel like there's like Anthony and Lawrence who are kind of like the two frontrunners. Tier one. Tier one. And then everybody else below them is kind of having like a mid-off. Let's call it the Sherry zone. Yeah. Sherry might be the most mid-contestant in the last decade of Top Chef. Yeah. But like that's almost it almost because there's so many mid. And contestants, it's almost fine, I guess. I don't know. And then you have like Rhoda who's just like. Very inconsistent. Yeah. Let's say. I think, I think I'm struggling with it and I'm trying to identify, I'm trying to identify what the major problem of the season is. Like because there's a bunch of stuff that we could list, including like the clearly reduced budgets that they're dealing with in these last few years. They got outside. They got outside. They got outside. The de-emphasis of the quickfire. The de-emphasis of the quickfire as something that has anything to do with what, again, this week was different. This week did lead directly into the elimination. But broadly speaking, the quickfire is just brand management and cash winning. Yeah. Which is not really related to the larger competition. Mm-hmm. Maybe this is just like the glorified bubble that I allowed myself to exist in because this is the only competition show that I watch. It did feel in many, it does feel, it did feel in many years that we were seeing some sort of real-time conversation about what greatness in American, what greatness in American cooking might look like. Yeah. Like when, you know, when Chef Eric shows up with West African ingredients that the show had never brought in before. I'm like, oh, this is now new, a new line of conversation has entered the chat. Mm-hmm. Or Buddha's like absolute technical excellence versus, and I'm not going to be able to name contestants off the top of my head anymore, but like versus like. I was just Googling. But like there were people who were like, well, what I do is more soulful and homey versus technical brilliance. And what does that look like? And are we entering the era that I think Chris has talked about, like the survivor era? Where there are people who are students of the game. Yeah. Coming to the show. Yeah. And that's kind of what Buddha was. Yeah. He's like, I know how to win this. I know that he cooks at a restaurant in New York and people enjoy it, but I don't think he's going to be the face of cuisine. He's the face of competitive cuisine. Right. Which is a different thing. And was, you know, maybe not my favorite either, but interesting to watch. Mm-hmm. In the dynamics. The fact that, that this week felt so crushing because we lost Dwen, who was by far the most in demand. Yeah. Yeah. And he had the most engaging television personality. Yeah. But failed to cook the fish properly in a fish challenge was kind of emblematic of where we're at. Well, and lost your, your nemesis. I've heard that Seeger stands are big in our emails right now. Yeah. There's a lot of justice for Seeger. How many burners do you think Seeger has right now? I mean, he looks like a guy who would have a few. Who would have a couple. But I feel like that was, I don't remember the last time that happened where I was like, the show is going to be worse off for losing a personality. Right. I see what you're saying. Or worse off for losing culinary excellence. Maybe that is why, maybe that's a component of why I'm enjoying this season more is because I, maybe the personalities are outshining the food. Yeah. Like I genuinely like, like most of the people on the show. And like, I think each, I was sad to lose the other, the brother. Yeah. And I was really, I've been really enjoying that dynamic. Yeah. That was nice. But yeah, I mean, I think I would agree that as a whole, the cooking on this season has been poor. Not up to snuff. And then I think you notice then, I've said this every week. I just think editorially, they know what they're doing in a way that is confident and good. And the judging panel, those three are phenomenal. And when they bring in old friends like an Emeril or something, it does elevate it. But it feels so small week to week. Like even when they went outside, you know, to go fishing, the challenge was just like using these small fish that they, or their associates. Managed to catch and serving them to a very small table of people. And it's like, in a way, I mean, maybe in a way it's representative of the world that we never recovered from COVID because there's an element of the season that feels like it's still a little pandemic-y. Yeah. Like we can't let that many people in and we can't let them go out. They came out of COVID so strong. So strong with that global all-star season. Yeah. And I wondered what's, if what's happening now is kind of also parallel to what's happening right now in like the concert, like industry. Yeah. Yeah. Like where people came out of the pandemic and they were so ready to like be with other people again. Yes. And so it led to like a huge surge in like tours and like ticket prices and blah, blah, blah. And now people are kind of like, okay, I did it. Yeah. Like I was with the people again. And now I can't really justify spending $400 to go see like a mid-level person. Plus if you're out there, your kid could get snatched by Jodie Comer. Exactly. You gotta be careful. That's what I was thinking about too. I knew you were thinking about that for me. But I wonder too, if it's now with the same thing with the restaurant industry where post-COVID people were so eager to be out and like at restaurants and trying food. And now that's kind of waned. And what we're left with is really, really high prices. And like, it's kind of like, do I need to go spend $200 on a meal? Like not. Listen, our podcast where we just talk about how mid all Los Angeles restaurants are and also how sad our politics are. I don't know. We could do numbers. I know. But like, like the experience of staring at the ballot we got in the mail and then staring at Postmates and being like, man, we are cooked. Like I don't want anything on either of these lists right now is a real, real problem. Everything is expensive and nothing really works anymore is kind of the general theme. A hundred percent. I have a question for you. Does it still mean something to win Top Chef? If you are a chef, does it still mean like, does that still carry a lot of weight do you feel? It's a great question. I think broadly speaking, it doesn't in what we might have once thought of as a career. But I think that long ago, the path, the traditional path for restauranteurs and cooks diverged where the first few seasons, the first 10 winners of Top Chef, I think almost to a person, immediately opened a restaurant with their winnings in their hometown. And some of those restaurants thrived. Some of them like we're recording at Spotify. There's a girl in the goat, which is Stephanie's restaurant here. A lot of those restaurants closed because most restaurants close. And really the path open to winners is to become professional media chefs. And the migration from the Top Chef universe into the Food Network universe, like immediately start competing on those shows, immediately start hosting things over there. Those used to be a much thicker firewall between them. That's vanished. Or like Buddha, who immediately went on to the Padma's rival show to compete on that do a circuit now that's what he's that's what he's good at we also get a lot of emails about how your silence is noted on Padma's cooking show the reason for that does that's not that's just like I don't have time to watch it and then it was like six weeks in I'm interested I mean she got good cooks to be a part of it I've heard that the competition level is really good but that the production for like the first season of a show has been spotty in terms of like actually executing it I don't know I mean it was interesting so Dwayne got kicked off and she was a sparkling personality two personalities at times when she asked Jonathan wrote to Dwayne yeah when she said to Jonathan do you want to call your brother was low-key one of the most savage things ever said on this show but she immediately did went on her Instagram and once the elimination aired and did an AMA and of course all the questions are about like would you go on Tournament of Champions on Food Network would you come back for an All-Star season would you do that and she's like yes yes yes yes yes yes I think that the brand is the front of house person that she did more than right I see yeah because her cooking was never particularly I mean it seems like it's what I would I would want to eat those things yeah but either you to do that you either move to a smaller town in America and open the restaurant that does that and devote yourself to that life perhaps Widows Bay needs some Vietnamese flavors or you become the public face of something and that's also not something that every chef can do I mean I do think it's interesting that like Brandon is in I think he's in Montana like some of these rotas in Hawaii that they're pulling chefs who are able to make their life and their restaurant work outside of the major spotlight cities yeah but what it means I don't know I mean I don't watch any other competition shows so do you feel like is Top Gun Top Chef still meaningful and entertaining if it is just another Food Network Tournament of Champions where a bunch of interesting people run the race you know it definitely always succeeded you know in terms of the reception because it was like well Tom Colicchio is here and we get Danielle Balloud to drop in and this is like the gold standard yeah does it matter is your pool of contestants getting smaller and smaller because less people are incentivized like your best chefs are like I don't really need to do that anymore it doesn't really mean a whole lot then that might be the reason why season after season like we're getting less of an interesting cast yeah I mean I my theory with reality TV shows is that they're almost always best at the beginning when you're not especially and this is like less for like reality competition shows and more for just like a housewives type of deal but like like Love is Blind really faces this where like it was really great at the beginning when it was like lesser known and so people in theory were more more on the show to actually find love and now people are just on the show because they want to like launch their influencer career yes and it just gets all a little too meta and like a little too boring yeah people go on Top Chef they know what the score is at this point and it's you know every so often you'll get a sous chef who's like my boss was this champion and now I want to come on and do the same thing and like they're sponsoring me almost to have my chance to do it but otherwise there's also these just changing trends in dining where like 10 or 15 years ago like Voltaggio Brothers would be like or Richard Blaze would be like the assignment is to make a cheesecake I will reinvent cheese and cake and that was a certain type of energy and a certain type of show trends in dining are definitely more like how much homier can we make this how many ways can we do a smash burger how many ways can we do fried chicken oh my god I know how many ways can we do an elevated chilies exactly and that or all restaurants want and they should want to be Houston's or Hillstone Group which I love but you kind of want to see the imagination you will not find me bashing it's as good as it gets but I don't know if I want to watch that in a competitive setting yeah that gets boring and so bringing it full circle to this season like what Lawrence did this week I would I would pay money any night to eat what he made like the the classic Chinese style steamed fish with rice inside like that is exactly that is my favorite thing to eat as Chris loves to mock me for you like a steamed fish I love a delicate fish over rice but it is it is it is it is it is of where the show is at that he seems like on a glide path to certainly the finals by just executing something very very very well right or like no shame in that but was it Rhoda who just gave them like the fried fish over like a pureed yeah she cooked it perfectly and that and so yeah at like whatever week we're at is that it's right that's a great point that's a great point and is that a fault of the challenges and the ingredients and the budgets or is that just where they're at where they are like scrambling to stay alive where if Dwayne had just cooked the fish it was uncooked not only would she be be safe she would have been in the top three because she did something that is from her perspective from her culture everybody liked and it would have been done well what was exceptional yeah nothing really yeah damn so where do you think they're gonna go next what place in America yeah whoever gives them a tax break like there's always someone on Reddit who's just like I have looked in the city records of Charlotte and I see that they got 1.3 million dollars to film there so that's also why they will likely never I mean you know we'll see if I'm wrong and maybe Gail can talk about this if she comes back on but I don't think they will ever be back in LA, New York, Chicago people are like will they obviously I would like this why don't they go to Philadelphia which has truly great restaurants right now and the answer is Philadelphia does not have a from what I understand there's no line item budget for attracting they do have I do believe they have some Hollywood tax breaks and credits but I think I read that they do not pay productions outright to come as part of like civic boosterism bummer I know they're too busy just letting people park in the middle of the street and you know sell their tickets to Knicks fans it's a bummer I will say as a whole I want to read I am really enjoying this season and I love Top Chef oh yeah but it wouldn't be a podcast I know if we didn't pick Knits yeah Kaya thank you for sitting in with me of course it's always a pleasure of course wow we went right up to the wire right up to the wire and we didn't even get to book talk so we'll have to circle back to book talk great did you read Playworld by Adam Ross no okay well maybe we maybe you can well Chris made me read it so it's good I know that's what all the the dudes want to read right now it's true all the dudes man I gotta zag all right give me we'll go offline you'll give me a book that the ladies like we'll get right back to my interview with Eric Kripke did you know that Sori Adler is a drug that can treat rheumatoid arthritis and it's called Sori Adler and it's a drug that can treat rheumatoid arthritis and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore the possibilities. Ask your doctor about Trimfiya. Tap this ad to see new joint data and learn more about Trimfiya, including important safety information. Ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease symptoms don't pause for the moments that matter. That's why understanding your treatment options matters. Discover what's possible with Trimfiya. Guselcamab. Trimfiya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Talk to your doctor and explore what's possible or call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more about Trimfiya and visit TrimfiyaRadio.com. Fan Duel is now available everywhere in the U.S. So you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are, including these places. Make this your most rewarding season ever with Fan Duel. Age and location restrictions apply. Product availability varies by market. See FanDuel.com for eligibility. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. I am thrilled to be joined once again by the showrunner, the developer, the lead voice behind Amazon Prime series, The Boys. Eric Kripke, welcome back to The Watch. Hey, thanks for having me. Very happy to have you. Because we are talking at a fraught, not vaught time, we have just watched the penultimate episode of the series, the seventh episode of season five. So we will, at some point, talk about the events of that episode and the season and look ahead to the finale, which I have not watched. But I kind of wanted to, instead of starting at the end, start at the beginning, both to avoid spoilers, but also, I'm really, really curious about this journey. So if you don't mind, I want to, like, make you send your mind all the way back. Um, I realized this morning that The Boys was announced as a TV show in April of 2016. 2016, which was a decade ago. That's 10 years of your life. And the world has changed enormously since then, both politically, culturally, and specifically to our conversation within the industry. It was announced as a Cinemax original, I believe, at the time. Could you talk a little bit about what drew you to the project then, what you thought was cool, interesting, and relevant 10 years ago, considering how much all of that must have changed since? Yeah, I came into it first and foremost as a super fan of Garth Ennis, the author of the comic. And for my money, Preacher is one of the two or three best comics, period. Did you also have the experience I did, which is inappropriately reading it as a teenager and having your mind blown, but in a way that you could never explain to anyone around you? I did, except I was like 22. But yes, close. But it's fun. What's great about his comics is you really can't read them in public. You really have to shoulder it in case you get arrested for indecency. Which is great socially for 17 and 22-year-olds reading. So fun, especially when you're on a plane and it's your job to read that issue of The Boys and you're sitting next to a kid. Well, Eric, you've done that to me because I've had to catch up on The Boys while- Travelling. And so my laptop is open with unspeakable things. So thank you. And now you can't go 500 yards within a school. So I was really into just Garth Ennis. And so I found The Boys as a comic and read it voraciously. And then I was talking to a producer friend of mine, Ori Marmer, who had the rights. And I just jumped all over it. Around the same time, Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg were coming on board as well. So we all met and just kind of came on together. And we started with, it would really be fun to take the piss out of celebrities. Right. You know, Seth's pitch when we first went around town was, what if Iron Man was Robert Downey Jr.? Good pitch. And then I would pitch the story. So it started with almost in a proto-the-studio way, which is Seth and Evan know an incredible amount of insider knowledge about celebrities and the industry and how celebrities are packaged. And we're going to put all of that into a superhero show. And we're going to go and make the world's most realistic superhero show. But it's interesting because at the time, like taking the piss out of celebrities, sort of knocking superhero culture down a peg, just as Marvel was ascendant, that was enough, I would imagine, to get you some interest and maybe a green light. At a certain point in your development process, reality began to outpace fiction, I think, in ways that probably surprised all of you. Was there a moment that you point to as like an inflection point where things that you may have thought were extreme or wild or fun in the comic or in your writer's room were suddenly becoming plausible and you may have to rethink some of them? There's more of like a couple small moments. I mean, you know, we took it out and pitched it before Trump was elected, for example. And when we first started talking about it, he was the insane, dark horse candidate that no one took seriously, if you can go all the way back to that. And so it was a few things. It was, I had dinner with Garth Ennis, and I was picking his brain about what he liked about, like what inspired him to make The Boys. And he said something, and again, this was before the election. And he said, you know, he's like, I was thinking about how terrible, some celebrities behave, but ultimately they don't have that much impact on the real world. You know, he said, but what if they had the impact of politicians? So what if you crisscrossed celebrities with authoritarians? What would happen? At the time, honestly, it washed right over me. I was like, wow, that's a kooky sci-fi concept, my man. Are we ordering desserts? Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And then, you know, and then obviously Trump was elected around when we were initially developing, you know, I may have written the pilot, but we were, you know, starting to put a room together and really develop what's this show. And that sort of came back to me. And I was looking at the characters and I said, yeah, they really are, you know, forward-facing celebrities and reality TV stars with the souls of authoritarians and fascists. Yeah. And suddenly that was happening in the world. And, you know, I said to one or two of the other writers, I said, did we accidentally stumble into the metaphor of the moment? And we sort of felt, like, we were talking about the current world we were living in, maybe more than any other show. And most importantly, we were way ahead of everybody else. Yeah. Right? Like, like people were only then just starting to take out pitches and stuff. And we were heading into pre-production, you know? So I'm like, we can get first to market, which is part of the game too, right? And we can get first to market with maybe one of the most current shows. On television. And wouldn't that be amazing if our superhero show could also be a satirical metaphor for not just the celebrity world we're living in, but the political world. I'm also curious if you can think back the major differences, again, this is from the 10-year window of like, okay, you're talking to Seth and Evan and you're pitching something to Cinemax versus you are bringing this ship to a close for Amazon Prime in a very different world. Um, in terms of what, this, I wonder if you have, if you have an ability at this moment to reflect on what the show became versus what you initially thought it could be your own expectations, what has surprised you and its role within like what it means to make a, this is very broad, but I'm specifically like what it means to make a show feel so significantly different 10 years on post COVID post strikes post so much. I think this show, frankly, succeeded far, far beyond my wildest dreams, um, you know, all the years on supernatural, you know, so I've been on a show that has, you know, gone years and years and granted, I left it, um, after it's somewhere in between seasons five and six, but, um, we can, we should note that it ran another 10 years. Yeah. Then it ran another 10 years. So crazy, but we always said the whole time, like, um, it sure would be nice to be a hit instead of a cult hit. Um, and the boys just to be on a big fat hit and, and it captured the zeitgeist and it captured politicians attention and Barack Obama is telling people to watch it. And it was incredibly gratifying because it was the first thing I'd ever done. That was, was genuinely me. Um, because I was, you know, I had network standards and practices for anything I did for supernatural, but to be able to completely do my sense of humor, my influences, which is like half Sam Raimi and half the movie network. And, um, you know, what I find important and interesting and funny, and to be able to do it all without any restrictions and then to have it hit, you know, it's like a very lovely feeling when you like really put yourself out there, uh, is weirdly the most personal thing I've done. And, and for it to have this reaction is, is mind blowing. I mean, it's, it's never going to happen again, but, um, but it was a nice ride. Well, first of all, we don't know that we, as, as your show has proved, we don't know a lot of things about what's to come. Um, I, one of the things that I admired and always commented on and complimented year to year was that what it felt like watching the boys was for all of the forward facing, you know, as relevant as looking at the news ticker stuff that you were playing with, like as the fissile material, the show had old bones in the sense of like, these characters are on this story. These characters are on this other story. We will tell a story this episode that will build into a larger jigsaw puzzle, et cetera, et cetera. And I, I love that about the show. And I wondered if you could, thinking of that sort of how to make the trains run on time element of TV that you learned in the trenches of your previous jobs, how do you approach a final season? Because I think inevitably, when you end a serialized show, you choose the answer and you choose the question that it was asking the whole time. It's no longer about all the fun things that you could explore. It has to be about one thing. How did you decide to make that turn into the final leg of the race? What was interesting to you to settle on as it was time to wrap it up? Well, what was really challenging and interesting was we had spent the first four seasons talking about pointing out everything that was messed up in the world, nothing but naming problems. We were naming problems. We were naming problems for years. And then finally, in the fifth season, we all look at each other and we're like, we actually have to say a solution. So you started having conversations we had never had before, which is like, you know, where do you find hope in the world? How do you think we make things better? How do we get that in the show without being deadly earnest, right? Because it's a show that sort of. Lives on its, I wouldn't call cynicism, but it sort of has this irreverent, sarcastic vibe. So you can't suddenly become, you know, Jimmy Stewart, Mr. Smith goes to Washington. You have to couch it in its tone. So how do you get all that across was a big thematic concern for us. And then how do you properly service 15 characters in a way? That feels satisfying and emotional. And that was, you know, our attack. You know, look, finales are hard. People, what I've come to really very much realize as we've been airing it is everyone has a very distinct idea of what they want the finale to be. Always. Yeah. And when you're not doing the thing that they had in their, the vibe that they had in their mind, they're very vocal. And, and, but, but I approached it and the writers approached it of like, it's, we've always put the characters first. Like, we're just going to keep doing what we're doing in that we're going to track, you know, through every episode. And then those, as you said, through every episode and then puzzle pieces into the season, we're going to track these characters to their conclusion. And if we get that right, then everything else is gravy. I think it's such an interesting point and I want to drill down on it. And so this is, I'm going to jump into some spoilers for the season through episode seven on this. But specifically when you're talking about what, what, what fans want and the way fans engage with the show and the way audiences broadcast. I think it's interesting to like, let's carve out like what happens with Kimiko in episode seven, which is like, you can look at it in terms of like the plot of trying to expose her to radiation to give her a power that might kill Homelander. That's not something that was seeded like that emerged in this episode. But if you watch it as the A, the A plot or the A side of the record that is about the end of her relationship with Frenchie, then it becomes something quite different. And so I think it's interesting to consider the way. The audience who is gaming out a season and gaming out character and plot might bump up against something that I would imagine not to put words in your mouth. And I'd like to hear your perspective on it. You were building from the other side of that wall. A few things. I mean, one is, you know, obviously we were building towards spoiler Frenchie's death. And so we wanted Kimiko to be, you know, we wanted to talk about this episode as if Kimiko's. We were trying to put in all the. The clues and breadcrumbs that Kimiko was going to die by the end of the episode to try to take a little bit of the attention off Frenchie. I think with, frankly, middling success, I think I think I think once Frenchie starts talking about his future, I was going to say it was a McBain Simpsons moment when he's like, yeah, we can adopt a dog. The three kids. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. When Scully is going to have by the boat called the live forever. Exactly. Right. No, for sure. But but, you know, there's also there's also something like you're watching this slow motion car crash and you know that it can't be averted. And so we wanted to do that. We actually went back. Because we always do like one big value of streaming. I'm sure you know it on the shows you work on is most of them are written before you shoot. And so you could really go back to episodes. You know, once you really have a better handle of how the ending is going to work, you can really go back and seed them in. So, you know, as early as I think episode four, Butcher is having witnessed Soldier Boy depower that guy in the wall. And you see that his wheels are turning. He's watching the Soldier Boy video in episode five. He's carrying all this weird equipment into the back. And he says, me and Frenchie are working on something because proper planning and preparation. You can start. Seeding in all these things that they're actually in the background of the show. They've been doing this all along. And so that was valuable. But yeah, to me, the moment is about the end of the episode. You're just you're building to ripping those two apart and and really showing that if there's going to be any victory, it's got to come with terrible. Sacrifice. There's no way to get too granular on this answer, because I think our audience is interested in what goes on in writers rooms. Generally, I wonder if you could talk about the process, especially for this final season of like addition versus subtraction. What I mean by that is I wondered if you had a whiteboard where you wrote every single dream thing that you you and your team hoped to get on the screen, whether it's bringing back PJ Byrne or killing Seth Rogen or giving finally the dog vomit POV that, you know, the audience had been demanding. Versus all the things you have to winnow away to, as you said, service 12, 15 characters. So I don't know if it's it's worth talking about just in terms of like the whiteboards themselves or looking at a character if it's easier for you, like looking at Huey or something like all the things you want for someone versus how much you have to take away and trust that, like in the Coco Chanel line, less is more. Well, I mean, a lot of it came. It's a good question. And a lot of it comes out of the first five, six weeks of the room. Because that's when we're really more than anything talking about the overview of the characters. And I think the thing we were most clear on. Was like the last 10 minutes of the finale. You know, after the big fight and explosion, we sort of knew where we wanted every character to end up. So we have, you know, columns on the whiteboards for every character. And and, you know, call it beats one through 10 or whatever that stretch over the eight episodes. Sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less. And we had that last beat of all of them. And so then it became. All right, well, what's the first beat? What do we think is in the middle? How do we make it feel so that they're moving? And growing and turning to get to this ending that we want to get to? And then whatever didn't service. That. Usually that was a good clue that it had to it had to go away. I mean, we throw in jokes and moments and satire and our usual nonsense. But the spines were always looking at. What they needed to go through to hit the beats that we needed to hit. Like there's a written on the board for episode seven was we need to remind Huey and remind the audience that Butcher will murder anyone who gets in his way on his way to his ultimate goal and to beware. You'll see in episode eight that that becomes an important piece of. Information. So, you know, they're all like built of a piece. The other thing we did and because I heard anecdotally that this is what Breaking Bad did and I liked the idea is we had our writer's assistant go through every single loose end. Every single character that was alive, every single storyline that we left on the floor, and they had an entire board filled with it. And so it's sort of a good. Buffet right when you're looking for what's the story that we want to play or what's a character like? let's go to the board. Is there something we can pay off that we set up seasons ago? And then we'll look like geniuses because we did that. And so that's where like bringing out Eagle the Archer again and, and, you know, yeah, like Adam Bork and, and, um, you know, all those things came out of, uh, uh, just having like a menu, uh, that we could, uh, we could play with. Internally, what is the reaction like in the writer's room when someone suggests a, uh, gold Christ-like statue of Homelander versus two weeks ago in your writer's group chat when someone sees the gold Christ-like statue of Donald Trump that everyone is prostrating in front of? That, that seems like a full circle moment. It's not a good feeling. Like no one, no one is, sending each other the high five emoji. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. It's only like, this is really creepy. And, and what people have to remember is we wrote it two years ago, right? We wrote it before, uh, uh, he won the second, his second term. So we're trying to come up with, here's what's really scary and unsettling. I think we weren't even reacting to the shit that Trump pulls. Like we had in previous seasons, that was not what we were studying. We were studying countries that had authoritarian creep and what that looks like in its early stages. You know, that golden statue is a Saddam Hussein thing. That wasn't, that's where we got it from, you know, and, and going into sanctuary cities and, and, you know, starting to claim yourself as, there by divine right. And, and, and we were, if anything, we were really looking at history because the truth is, um, and, and I think some fans I've seen are expecting like, oh, it should have been this apocalyptic, you know, battle like deep in a world war two or something. And, and that's just one, we can't afford that. But two, uh, that's not the story I wanted to tell. I wanted to tell the story that like the fascist creep to we're building camps and we're moving people into camps. What's scary about it is it looks like the world you're in. There's no moment where the switch flips and Thanos is there. And suddenly it's some big, you know, uh, uh, apocalyptic fight. It's your world with groceries and, and reality shows and soap operas and, and the people, the people in charge saying, oh, this is absolutely the patriotic right thing to do, you know? And so I wanted to show that world that, you know, I wanted to show not, you know, uh, uh, Berlin, 1944, I wanted to show Berlin 1938, you know? And, and so you, I can't tell you how unsettling it is that when every one of these things come true and it's based on something we found in Eastern Europe or Germany, or one of the, you know, banana republics, um, because they're all warning signs, you know? And, and so when everyone's like laughing, like, oh my God, they did it. I'm like, no, you guys, like, you feel a little bit like the dude at the end of invasion of the body snatchers. Like you're running up and down the street and you're like, no, these are warning signs. These are not good, funny things. These are bad, bad, bad things. I'm as powerless as anybody. I think if anything, the show is demonstrated an unbelievable ability to not change anything. What a legacy, right? Right. Exactly. We can't talk about the gold statue without talking about the man and the actor who inspired it because as a long time holder of Anthony star stock as one of like the world's biggest Banshee fans, I knew that this guy could do anything, but I, even I didn't know he could do this. And I, I wonder what the experience has been like writing for an actor who almost, well, I think is deeply underappreciated. In this role, because people just think that's what he's like, or that's what he's doing, but he is capable of pushing it. He finds new layers to this very, very complicated, flawed monster week to week. He's astounding in the role. And, um, if there's any, uh, uh, if there's any television Academy listeners, like, please give this guy an Emmy, like, I don't need any for me. I don't, but give Anthony star and Emmy, for Christ's sakes, the thing that will convince them is the dog POV sex dream, where he offers his ass to the dog. I feel like if you can get someone who's for your consideration to consider that part of him. Well, if nothing else, we could put up that clip as he's going up to accept the award. I mean, what more does this man have to do to earn your respect? But to answer your question, it's an incredibly collaborative, um, process where we'll write what we, you know, need. This story to be, and then, um, I have a lot of, you know, really in-depth conversations with Ant where we go over every line. Um, and I completely welcome it. You know, like I actually love that process. Um, when somebody is as locked into the character as he is, like he never says like, you know, the cliche, actor things of like, well, why don't I do the cool thing? Or why don't I have more screen time? He's only like, um, you know, I'm really trying to prove to my dad that I'm a real man. So maybe when the president offers me a glass of milk, I get really mad and puffed up. And I asked for a Manhattan instead, like that's the type of conversation. And that'll come, that came from him, you know? And I'm like, that's amazing. We're definitely going to do that. And, and so, and then he'll say something. I'm like, well, I don't actually think that's where we want it to go, or this is going there. Maybe that's too far. And, and we'll just go back and forth and, and I'll end up rewriting their lives as he and I are just talking about the psychology of the character. And, and so then he gets really locked in about under, it also helps him understand the character beats. One to one to one. So when he gets on set, he knows exactly where he's moving through a scene, which he really needs to know. I mean, that's something that, um, he likes to be prepared. It's so subtle. I was watching singing in the rain again with my daughters and I was watching Gene Kelly in the beginning. And I was like, oh my God, there's some of this in Anthony's performance. The part where he's saying dignity, always dignity and the lights are blind. And like he's pulling on so much to play a character that in the wrong hands could, be so one note. It's amazing. In this spirit of, uh, we were saying like, where is hope in this universe? The one thing that I was noticing, and I, I was curious your thoughts about it was this season, as much as anything else has seemingly been about the limits of fear as a cudgel, which is another thing that I think might be, this is a more positive thing that you could send around in the group chat where there's like a whole article in the New York times about how some European leaders aren't saying how high anymore when our president tells them to jump. And how small that is, but how the effect it can have on bullies. And we saw it in, um, a train or Frenchie, just not being scared of him to his face. Now it didn't work out well for them. Did work out well for Paul Reiser, which, which I think was great because you can't, you can't kill Paul Reiser. You're not going to maybe Homelander loves mad about you, but, but, but I did wonder if you could speak on that a little bit as a theme. Um, yeah, there's, there's a couple in there, which is one, um, the fact that if you take away his power, um, and if you take away the power of a lot of autocrats, um, they've got real glass jaws, you know, real thin skin, insecure, um, narcissistic ego driven, like they're like, take away their power. And they're the most pathetic, in your history class. Um, and, and, and we all make this sort of pact of like, well, I guess they're all in power, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way, you know? And I think that's a point we're making with Homelander. And I think you'll really no spoilers, but really be driven home in episode eight, which is characters keep saying to him, you know, soldier boy, a train that keeps saying to him, like, you're nothing. Yeah. Um, and that's a point, we're making. The other thing is, you know, this thing that, you know, where he's, there's an emperor's, you know, new, new clothes factor to this, where for the first time, his people are saying like, oh shit, this guy's really crazy. Yeah. And so what do we do? And, and most of them acquiesce. Um, but the point is there is a point, with which most autocrats eventually go too far. You know, the, the, you know, the famous McCarthy, like at long last sir, you no dignity there's a moment with which the fever breaks and you're exposed and the crowd is like oh this person is insane and that's another thematic that we're trying to head for which has you know precedent in history and it's hopeful it's a little wishful thinking maybe i i do want to end with a thought about the finale but before we do i did want to point out the the other artful if not downright acrobatic thing that you guys have done this season is you are setting up the prequel series which i believe is is it 27 likely yeah yeah yeah early uh or first half of 2017 rising and i've never maybe this has been done before but i've never seen an example of a show introducing a character at the end of their story knowing that we have a lot of beginning of the story i mean i guess broadly speaking that's saul goodman on but that was not the intent whereas bombsite shows up at the i would imagine if not the end close to the end of his adventure and there's a lot of road to come in the new series in which he is a regular how did you balance how did you do that balancing act a balancing act is exactly right how do you do enough that you can touch on it but not so much that you feel like it's homework or you feel like it's just a commercial where it really came from honestly was we had this notion of this v1 mcguffin and and we knew soldier boy was going to be a character this season and just like well why is he immortal and why is stormfront immortal and what is it about you know whatever they had right and and and so once you come up with v1 we didn't start it with like we got to get bombsite in there guys we got to set up our thing it's just more like paul grelong who runs that show his room is down the hall you know and so we're hearing in our room what's coming out of that room and we're like excited by it you know and so and we got to hear what he was doing with bombsite this character and it was all very cool and so when the question comes up in our room of like well who ultimately has the v1 you know is it just some rando old hero that you never will see again or should it be one of those characters because those characters are so badass um that's how it kind of evolved it was pretty organic there wasn't like a lot of um craven you know commercialism in there it came from a spot of it's a full universe and we have these pieces and so if if we're able to use them why not without spoilers um what would you like to set up for the finale like what would you hope people are excited about what you hope they will take away from it anything that you'd like to to give to the adoring public in the days before they learn everything right um i would say um i hope they like it um i would say um most confrontations that they're hoping for happen um you know we really did the exercise of like what does the audience want in this finale and let's make sure we give it to them and don't do that rug pull thing which is like it's more artful to not give you the thing you're counting on like people love that yeah yeah like i just like give them the thing that they want so the things happen that i think they will want to have happen and hopefully in some interesting and surprising ways um and i want them to you know walk away feeling like um what we've been saying throughout which is um hope is hard and it's difficult to to make the world a better place and it comes with incredible setbacks and it comes with lots of failure and it and it comes with a lot of sacrifice but if everyone just tries to do it a little bit every day um then we have a chance to save the world i think that's beautiful that's that's better than the legacy what was the previous legacy you had which is i hope they like it i think that's that's a stronger act out okay i'm going to go with this that's my note um last thing a week ago you had a number of celebrities clearly fans of the show some executive producers of the show guest star all of them had the privilege of having their bodies ripped apart by a super speedster literally running through them with just the most what is the foley you use like to for the exploding body sound it's really resonant um it's an it's a lot of um stakes getting ripped in two there you go okay um and i think there's some smashed melons in there as well there's a little frisson of gallagher that i noticed each time um okay so they all got that that that privilege that honor on screen eric kripke the developer the showrunner of the show if you did your hitchcock moment maybe you did i haven't seen the finale yet what would your preferred gruesome explosive destructive death be because truly if you want a second legacy the grossest deaths may be ever on television i'll happily take that um you know what death i would always really enjoyed because it really creeps me out you know that moment when um someone is surrounded by zombies and the zombies start ripping out their intestines and eating them while the person is still alive yeah that's what i would want you'd want that moment of like awareness yeah like where you see that it's happening and your lower intestines are being pulled out but you're not dead yet and um that feels like um the type of movie death i would want it's not like i want to be super clear yeah i don't want that death in reality um but i feel like you were projecting a little bit with seth rogan who has half of that is aware that his body is ripped up and then someone brings up um the pickle movie he made so i wonder if can i just can i hat on a hat you are attacked by zombies you see them eating your appendix and your whole body and then one leans over and says supernatural season three was kind of mid like yeah i enjoy that i think no i think that's the i think that's the bow on the whole thing perfect as a perfect bow as i can come up with eric thank you so much for your time congratulations on all five seasons of the boys and we'll look forward to the spin-off and maybe we'll get another chance to talk uh thank you this is a lot of fun ulcerative colitis and crohn's disease symptoms don't pause for the moments that matter that's why understanding your treatment options matters discover what's possible with trimpaya guselcomab trimpaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis serious allergic reactions increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them in liver problems may occur before treatment get checked for infections and tuberculosis tell your doctor if you have an infection flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine talk to your doctor and explore what's possible or call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more about trimpaya and crohn's disease. visit trimpayaradio.com this is us banks cozy cash formations with your chief financial playmaker fernando mendoza you are worthy of financial security budgeting is not restriction it's freedom you are smart you are capable you are giving your money a purpose you are learning the language of saving of growing now streaming member fdic copyright 2026 us bank