Creativity as a Compass for the Wild, Sensitive Soul

[Music] Have you ever felt like your sensitivity is a burden? Holding you back from living the life you truly desire? What if I told you it's not your weakness but your superpower? It's time to shift your perspective and uncover your incredible sensitive strength. My name is Annette Fondan, professional life coach and international consultant on high sensitivity. By understanding this unique trait you can leave a life full of confidence, purpose and joy. Welcome to sensitive and strong. [Music] So today's guest is Lorna Bode, she's an extroverted HSP, a high-sentation seeker also, and Lorna began her journey as a French and Spanish teacher in Inner London, where her creative spark led to fashion shows, exhibitions, initiatives to uplift girls' achievements, and that same spark later carried her into educational advisory work for the National Center for Languages in the UK, training teachers and challenging conventional thinking. Love that. Her adventures took her to Barcelona in Paris, where she refreshed her love for language and travel. But it was during a difficult chapter that she rediscovered, clay, a childhood passion that became a lifeline and a new beginning for her. And now she's based near Bosph, Lorna is the founder of POS for Creativity, a workshop leader, artist, a retreat creator, and a co-host of an HSP cafe in Bosph in the UK. And through her empowered journey, she inspires others to embrace their sensitivity and nurture creativity and live with authenticity. And so let's dive into her story of resiliency and artistry and bold sensitivity. So welcome Lorna. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Absolutely pleasure. It's a pleasure to have you here. I mean, we've had a little bit of a history. We know each other a little bit because we do. We do. Gatherings. So that makes it nice to have a conversation like this, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So one thing that is really important to you is creativity, right? It seems like that's like a major thing in your life. So how did you came to realize that it's so important to you? Yeah. It's absolutely central. I lead a creative life. I know I do. And I think I always have. And only sometimes obstacles go in the way. I think when I think about how my creative, how I became aware of my creativity, in childhood, you know, I was always making. Sticking, cutting, making plays, poems, you know, dressing up, puppets were big. And my dad very wisely, let us have a very messy basement in our house. So there was a sort of messy area, which honestly, it's like it was my comfort zone. It was great for me to escape from the rest of the family. And to me to be able to be down there, I'd pop on the radio and I'd, you know, be gluing and sticking and making stuff. So I think that was the beginning of it. But I wouldn't say at school that it particularly was nourished because I was sort of academic. I mean, I'm not very academic, but I was, there was a big push. I don't know whether it was societal or because both my parents were teachers. But there was, you know, it was definitely rated higher. And if you had a sort of academic ability, then you were put in the top streams for things. And you didn't get a look in, you know, I wasn't encouraged to go to the woodwork room or the pottery classes or any of that. So it wasn't until I got to drama school and university that I started sort of being amongst my creative fellows, if you like, you know, my peers. And I studied, I actually studied French and drama. And even when I was at uni, I could still feel that I was outside the box. Even though I was already with drama people, I only wanted to sort of act in French. I didn't want to act in English. I liked the excitement of speaking a foreign language and acting in a foreign language. It was like adventure. It was much more interesting to me. And I did set design as part of my degree, not acting because I was more interested in set design. And then I was also started collecting design things. So I started, you know, early on about 18 started collecting ceramics. So I went into teaching. My parents were both teachers. It was sort of the family firm in many ways. And I loved it. I got this job in in London schools. And it was creativity every day because the kids were so different from anything I'd come across before. So I was teaching French to Somalians, Bangladeshese. Like people who had no relevance in their life. Their parents didn't have a house in the door door. It was crazy. And so at the beginning of my career, that was phenomenally stimulating. And I loved that. But when I was teaching, people would always put a very creative teacher. I was always making my own resources, getting the kids to make things. And I think eventually my creativity became too much for the school system. And I was actually told by we have inspectors in the UK. They're called off-stead and they come in and they watch your classes and tell you if you're doing well. And I had a very good reputation as a teacher. But the off-stead inspector was just like, oh no, you know, this is just too creative. There's not room for the ideal home exhibition in the French curriculum. You know, and I was just like, oh, okay. Yeah. I think I better go. You know, it was sort of like I became too creative for the structure, I think. And so that's ultimately why I've ended up freelancing and renovating properties and running my own workshops. Because then I've got the freedom. Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And it's fascinating how in a lot of the world, creativity is seen as like this rivalry like you can't be serious, right? You have to follow the structure and everything. What I hear you say is then it's like creativity is something that is almost like a life force. And then that brings me also to the next question. Like what would be your definition of creativity? So obviously there's been a lot written about this over the ages. For me, it's very much about listening to your inner voice. So giving yourself space to hear what your reaction is to the situation. So whether it's in a classroom setting, whether it's with a piece of a lump of play, whether it's with some paint, whether it's with some food ingredients, doesn't really matter what it is. But what is your voice telling you to say? And I know that we're getting, you know, everyone's going, oh my goodness, everyone's like barely button gazing and everyone's interested in themselves nowadays. And, you know, but ultimately if you're not connecting with your inner voice, then you're not going to get that payback which creativity gives you, which is that you are being you. You know, there is nothing more pleasurable. And if you remember as a child, there's nothing more pleasurable than doing something that is from you. Not that your parents have told you to do. Not that anybody else has said that you've created and you bring it home and you show it to your parents or whoever. And it's just a delight, you know, I remember things that I would, that I made little objects that I made as I was growing up. So for me, the definition is about inner voice and play particularly works for me because it's so malleable and it's so there's no form. So therefore nobody's telling me anything. It's just me and the clay and that's lovely. But I know people get it with cooking, they get it with music, they get it with, you know, clothes, choices. It can be anything, it can really be anything. Yeah, but it is your inner voice. Yeah. And also that you create something that's never existed before. So my husband, for example, loves a spreadsheet. I hate spreadsheets. He loves a spreadsheet, but he like will have five spreadsheets opened on his computer. And he's like playing, you know, I just see him playing with numbers and being creative. And you know, the pleasure he gets from that, even though it's completely incomprehensible to me, I can see it's his creativity, you know, and that's no one's ever put those in sequence of numbers together or whatever it is. Yeah. And so it's his. Yeah. Yeah, I love that how you said that and it reminds me of my youngest daughter when she was like four, five, six years old, whenever she was playing a game, she played the game according to the rules for maybe five or ten minutes. And then she would invent her own rules. She would apply anything she thought that would be fun to the game. So that's in a way also creativity, like just doing your thing, putting your thing into it. It's exactly that, you know, and it's dull to do this if you're agree. And we're all creative, you know, it's not that, you know, some people express it more readily than others, but everybody is creative, you know, and it's like, but unfortunately because we have structures like like rules in games and things like that. And then you get to school and it's either morals. It's like you end up see sort of thinking, oh, this doesn't feel right. So it's lovely if you have parents who allow you to mess around, you know, really. - Yeah, yeah. Well, that's an important point, I think, indeed, for a lot of people, they would see, they would look at it like, well, I'm not creative. I'm not, I'm not someone who builds things or make things and stuff like that. So how would you say to that, like how would you recognize that creative spark in you? - So there's a word called flow, which is used, FLOW, which is used a lot. People go, oh, I mean, the flu, you know, people talk about it in yoga, it's like the buzz word on the Instagram at the moment stuff. But it is actually the thing. I mean, that is the thing. If you do anything and you lose track of time, I would say you're in the creative process. You know, you lose, you look up and suddenly five hours have gone. And that means that you, your body, your brain, your creativity have been in a flow. - Yeah. - And that's, you know, that is magic. An artist, like visual artists, well, and all artists, I guess, seek that flow, you know? But don't think that they walking around, you know, in a state of flow, you're not. I mean, it's like a wave, you know, it comes and goes and goes. And at different points in my life, I've had more flow and less flow. Like at the moment, for example, I don't have much flow. And I know I just need to wait a bit. And for my life to calm down, one of my eldest, youngest child is doing A levels. You know, it's like, there's not an opportunity for my flow. So I have to be patient. I know that it, that it ebbs and flows. But if you've ever had that moment of losing track of time, that's it. - Yeah. - You're in the zone. - That's, I love that. That's indeed a very good indicator. Yeah. So how would you say that your sensitivity influences your creativity? - Well, I mean, for me, my sensitivity is my superpower. You know, that's like, I've been collecting data since I came out of the womb. You know, I've been like, as soon as I remember, you know, my memories of the color of the carpet when I was growing up, you know, all I've got a whole database in my head of things I've noticed, you know, and I think that's my sensitivity because I talk to my siblings. They don't have that record, you know, of stuff. And I go like, oh, do you remember those curtains or, you know, do you remember that? And I even remember people's houses that I went into. And obviously I had a knife for design, but I remember the designs on the curtains, you know, the, the, the ash trays they had, the, you know, just like amazing details that I could recreate if I was going to, you know, it's like, so I had a, I had a huge, I think my sensitivity has enabled me to notice and store a vast amount of information on so visual information, emotional information. So how people are feeling, how people were feeling, specific times, and then all of the nuances of whatever it is. I'll always know, and I know this is classic for HSPs, but, you know, I will always know if, you know, the weather's changing, if there's the light is changing. As a child, again, if I talk about that, it's just, I was already collecting shells. I've been collecting beautiful shells since I was very little, and I always noticed them, whereas other people didn't notice them. People don't notice moss, people don't notice lictions, you know, it's like, that's what I do. I just notice all this stuff, you know, and it makes for a really rich and special. - Yeah, well, that's your depth of processing, plus you're using the sensitivity to sunnities, right? That's from the DOES. So it's a beautiful example of that. So how would you say like intuition? How does that play a role in your creative process? Does it have a role? - Yes, I mean, talking about shells, for example, when I'm making a piece of art, I haven't lost some, or I started making a piece of art with shells instead of clay. I was putting, I wanted to break from clay, and so I started working with these shells, and I didn't know what I was doing. I had no model, I had no idea. I just knew that I'd been collecting shells for a long time. So I was thinking, "Oh, why don't I do something with them?" And the process of choice, of how you choose, like initially I've intuitively chosen beautiful shells on the beach, you know? But then I'm trying to create something with them that is going to be a visual piece of art. I'm not thinking about the end product. I'm using my intuition and placing shells next to each other to see what colors work next to each other, what the light is doing with the inside of the shell, you know? And all of that. And my intuition is just so strong to get the piece right. So I start putting it together. I have no idea where it's going to end or what it's going to look like. And then after hours and hours and hours of in the flow of this intuition, there emerges this piece which is then a beautiful thing to look at. And I had it in an exhibition and then hundreds of people literally, I'm not exaggerating, were like moved by the, this child's collection of shells really, that was then up there. So that's where my intuition comes in and that I'm choosing things. And so I use the shells as a concrete example, but I'm doing that with my friendships, you know? I'm doing it on a daily basis for the activities that I'm including in my life, the things that, you know, and that's been a life since I discovered I was highly sensitive. I use my intuition to know if it's healthy for me to be doing something or not really. - Yeah, yeah. Well, that's awesome. It sounds almost as if you're saying like, if you trust your intuition, the process will lead you to something beautiful. - I believe that. I absolutely believe that because when I started teaching, I left teaching because my intuition told me that this was not the right place for me. - Yeah. - Now, obviously that I'm making it sound as if it was a walk in the park. It wasn't as years of like soul searching and going part time and then going like, oh my God, I'm gonna have to give up being a teacher. Like, oh my God, I love teaching, but I can't be a teacher, you know? All of that, but actually looking back on it with the hindsight of 15 years now, 20 years, it's like, oh, okay. So that was, I was listening to my intuition. - Yeah. - It took me, it takes me less time now to listen to my intuition, which is a good thing because I'm getting older. So it's, but, you know, definitely that's, if it doesn't feel right and it continually doesn't feel right and you feel ill, then, and I think that's the case for a lot of it, it just pays that we get the burn out or the bore out as you were talking about with high sensation secrets. It's, we, you know, we have to move on. - Yeah. - After leaving behind. - Yes. - That's not always easy indeed to trust your intuition to lead you to a better space, but I find also like the more you trust your intuition, the more you follow it, the stronger it becomes and the more easy it also becomes to listen to it. - Exactly. I mean, it's gotta be a muscle, doesn't it, that we, that we use, I presume. - Yeah, true. The more you listen to it, the stronger it becomes. - Very true. - Yeah. - So do you find that the people underestimate how fear since, in theory, creativity can be when it's fueled by this deep feeling and intuition and high sensation seeking. (laughs) I absolutely love this question and that I really do. It's like, it's like, I think about how the faces of people in meetings throughout my life, where I am sitting in a meeting, a work context meeting or a family meeting with my extended family, or maybe even a family meeting with my little family, you know, the Boda family, it's like, I feel things so deeply, so intuitively, so strongly and I'm so passionate about it so quickly, that, you know, I do understand, I do appreciate that people get knocked off course by my depth of feeling and passion and belief and how upset I am if people don't understand them. What I'm trying to say, or, you know, let's take a work meeting, for example, but, you know, one, my face tells it all, so that's, I was told many times my managers to stop moving my face during a meeting because all my emotions would be expressed on my face. So I have to have that, pretend, poker face. And then that whole thing of like, how long is it gonna take for this group of people to understand what we need to do? And it sounds really arrogant, you know? And I don't think I'm a particularly arrogant person, but you have to be really careful. because that fiery intuition, that knowledge, that like I've already been thinking about this meeting for five hours before I've even gone into it. Most of the the non-HSPs have not been thinking about it. You know, my husband is not an HSP. He we do stuff. He hasn't thought about it until it's happening. You know, I've been thinking about it for three days before it happens. So I'm there, I'm fired up, I'm fiery, I'm like, whoa, yeah, this is such a brilliant idea. Let's do this. I'd like, you know, I'll do that. Who else wants to do this? You know, meanwhile, everyone else is just like, oh my goodness, you know, this is way way too much. And my family of origin, particularly, I was the youngest of three siblings. And it was not welcome. That's the most polite way I can put it, you know, my depth depressing, my sort of fiery, strong temperament makes people in my family uncomfortable, that's for sure. And it's a shame because, you know, I don't, it is coming from a like a really good positive place. Yeah. Well, I guess that's indeed like what we need to learn to channel, right? If you have like this inner passion and for you, that's the creativity. If you, you know all the ins and outs about it, and if that's like a true passion for you, then it's like sort of also you're the master in it. So you are the one who can bring it across to other people. But sometimes you forget in that process that other people are way, way, way, way not on your level with that. And so they need to have a little bit more of a leading into it more softly, more gently and you sometimes get carried away by the enthusiasm, right? Absolutely, absolutely. And so I have had to learn, you know, I have to learn that, you know, my partner is very good for, you know, being the count balance. So often I think also with things like that, that because other people are not right there with you and they're like, what what's going on here? What do you mean? How do you do this? Like how do you honor your intuition when it comes to things like that? Like how do you keep to your class and that and not let people push you out of it? So I think in those situations that I'm sort of explaining, it's just about relentlessly coming back with a different version in a way that, you know, I might like, recognizing that and I suppose this is resilience, it's like, okay, that one didn't work, you know, that my idea didn't get picked up then or, you know, or a very watered damn version of it did or, you know, something and it wasn't really heard then, you know, so I'll, I'll go away and I'll spend some time like processing what's happened and try not to feel too hurt or try not to let the hurt, you know, knock me off track, understand that that's the nature of collaboration, you know, we are, I want to work in the world with other people, I don't want to be isolated. So therefore I have to understand how to work in the group. So I'll come back with maybe a different version of what I said or or I'll come back with it again and you know, I'll be lot more lighter about it, maybe more joking or, well, maybe I'll just do it myself and then turn up at a meeting with the finished product and say, oh, I had to go at this, this is what I've come up with, you know, and then nine times out of ten people go, oh, that's really cool, you know, that's really great, not that they'll then necessarily use it or they might use a bit of it or, you know, it depends what the project is, but I think to not to understand that that is the process of working in the world, I suppose, as an HSP. I used to get really red neck, I used to get from like my mouth down, I haven't got it stayed too much, but my, if I was putting across my idea, I would, my body was so passionate, yeah, I was like on fire, you know, and then people would look at me and they would, that wouldn't really help my, it wouldn't really help my cause, you know, so I used to, so things like just taking time out, having a pause, going for a mindful moment, also talking to people before meetings, it's quite helpful, not in a manipulative way, but just say like, oh, I've had this idea, I'm going to throw, you know, and run it by a few of your allies, because that was something I meant to say, was that you have to find your people, you know, in any group of people, there are people who are more your people, you know, there's 30% highly sensitive people out there, so it's not, you know, and I mean, I was working with artists, you know, there were 60 artists in the organisation, so, you know, about 30% of them were highly sensitive or more, so, yeah, doing a little bit of pre-meeting, chitchat, and running by ideas, and that sort of thing is helpful as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that makes a lot of sense actually, and I'm thinking also, like, once you understand how you function, like what are you, what is important to you, like giving yourself permission to create, like, in an unapologetically way, like how does that change for you, how you show up in the world? I think, you're just the more authentic you are, you know, the best, well, for me, it's been like the more authentic, the more I listen to Lorna, the better I dress, the better I sleep, the better sense of humour, I've always had a good sense of humour, but my humour got even better, and I'm just more forgiving, you know, I think I used to be very frustrated that nobody understood me, or my desires, you know, and I think that's a useful thing, I think that's, you know, that's fair enough, isn't it? But now I'm just so much more comfortable, and I'm braver, you know, so wearing what I want to wear, you know, planning my day in the way that is going to work better, you know, and an online working, and all of that has been great, and Covid was actually, you know, really good for me because of that, you know, it was like a remodeling and a reset, you know, so I don't think being English is very helpful, because it's like the English don't, you know, and here's a sweeping statement, I mean, you know, and I'm married to a Dutchman, but I think, and I've always dated foreigners because of that reason, I think, I think that English people don't really like you to be too out there with your authenticity, you know, that that's like maybe a bit too American or a bit too something, you know, I think that's, you know, that's tricky, I think being a woman that's that's been tricky as well, when I think back to periods in my life when I was trying to be myself, and that education is a female workforce, you know, the 90% of the workforce are women, but the majority of men are still in senior positions, you know, it's still changing, but slowly, and I think that, you know, that crushed me, like the men just telling me that, you know, it wasn't valid or that was a silly idea or, you know, those sorts of things, and so, and being the youngest in my family, I think that was probably tricky for me, to try and sort of be my authentic self and be the last one learning everything, that wasn't great, I didn't really enjoy that, and my legs were always short, but everybody else's, but I think, allowing my curious mind to lead me, has kept me balanced, I mean, I've definitely had ups and downs, and you mentioned that I found clay after a postnatal depression, so that was, you know, that was a happy accident, really, but I think my curious mind has always ultimately sought out balance, you know, sought out regulations, sought out people who are going to help me to feel better. I think that's what my friends say about me, is that I will always reach for other people to help me, you know, in what I get in a scrape or in a difficult position, or something, I always feel like there's other people there who I could trust to help me. Well, that's something that I found as well, that it's what you said in the beginning, like, there's so many people, especially HSP, who want to have like the connection to other people and to feel seen and heard, and the paradox in that is that it creates us to not show ourselves, and I found over and over again, especially in the last 10 years, and I hear that in your story as well, is that the more authentic you become, the more you also attract and get back what you want in the world and what you want to see, and so it's like an accelerator, the more you are yourself, easier it gets, and the more you also attract those things that are good for you, and the better things are happening, and so it's like aligning in that way. Exactly, exactly, that's exactly it. [BLANK_AUDIO] And as you say it, it sort of sounds trite. You know, it sort of sounds, oh, you know, be yourself and the good things will come, you know, and you're sort of like, yeah, but hold on a minute. That's a bit, that's a job of working itself, isn't it? Be yourself as an HSP, you know? And I'm an extrovert HSP. So I would say I've got a probably slight advantage in that I can put myself out there, you know, more readily than if I was an introvert, my son is an introvert HSP. And it's, you know, I see that, that that's a different situation. I don't think one's better than the other, but it's just that, yeah, it's not an easy thing to do, but honestly, if you do it, then the right people turn up, and that's, and it is what everybody says, you know? And what a joy it is to be heard by HSP's. I mean, when we met in that back in 2017, and we're on the retreat, you know, just that, that for me, that was an absolutely magic moment of being at one of Jacqueline's retreats, and going, okay, so this is a whole group of people like me. And it's so affirming, we honestly affirming, I mean, they can't, yeah. That's why I like to run the cafes, because I find it's ultimately the most affirming experience. Yeah, even more than reading books and stuff, you know, it's just being in a room with others. Yeah. Yeah, that's very true. I remember also when I was first in the first gathering from Jacqueline, where I went that it's such an amazing and special experience to suddenly be in a group of HSP's, and then you also realize how different you are from the rest of the world, right? Because being with other HSP's makes it more clear exactly how we are, what we are, because we get the freedom to be who we are in those gatherings, because everyone sees and they recognize it in each other, like, oh, yeah, you're like me. You're also the same, and it's very freeing and very confirming, validating to be in the group of other HSP's. It's very freeing. Absolutely, and they can be scientists, they can be doctors, they can be, you know, they can be, they can be, you know, it's just staggering to me that all these people I had something in common with them, and that it wasn't visible, you know, it wasn't like, they weren't all artists, they weren't all teachers, you know, it was like, no, this is a different sort of group, you know, this is something that is so fundamentally confirming of, of how I feel about family Christmas, you know, of how I feel about traveling or how I feel about, you know, whatever it was, and that without having any knowledge about the person other than they were HSP, you know, it's like, yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, absolutely. I remember indeed that one of the gatherings, I think it was in Germany, there was also a woman who was a, how do you call that? She was working in a laboratory, like doing research and everything, very, very analytical, you would see, right? And then normally with the tats up to the non-HSP more, there was still the recognition, like we are, we do have the same trait, even though the professions are mindfully blowing differently. Yeah, exactly. World's apart. Yeah, we have a biochemist, we have a biochemist, she comes to the cafes in Bath, yeah, and she's just like, she was just beaming all over her face, because she was saying, like, my colleagues are really not like you people, you know? And then I say, yeah, and it's funny, because artists aren't like me either. I thought the artists would all be highly sensitive, you know, but of course they're not. Yeah. Wouldn't you find that there's like a bigger percentage of HSPs in the artist world then, or I couldn't even narrow it down to that. I'd narrow it down to the freelance world, yes. But artists, I couldn't say, I, yeah. No, okay, yeah. Well, the reason I'm asking is that I'm thinking of, I did like four months of volunteer work in an NGO in Barcelona. Yeah. And that was really focused on helping a neighborhood and being supportive to the environment and all kinds of things. And there were a lot of volunteers there, and I taught them actually, I gave them a workshop on high sensitivity. Yeah. And I introduced the questionnaire there as well, the HSP scale. And to my surprise, and they still use it every now and then. And every time they have a group of people take it, it's like 70, 80 percent of all the people identify as highly sensitive there. And so that makes me think, like, well, in certain areas of life, in certain, if you have like a common goal, there are bigger percentages of HSP's together. And so that's what I was thinking. Like artists are also more known for, like, they're more in tune with their intuition. And so that's where. Yeah, but whether they spend much time looking at the sort of psychology of themselves, they're not so interested in that. Because the art does the psychology for them, if you see what I mean. So it's like the act of painting is enough. So they're not necessarily in touch with their-- they wouldn't necessarily say, yeah, I'm highly sensitive. In fact, what happened when I ran a cafe at the studios was that people were talking about their children. So the older artists were talking about their children and their grandchildren, who they thought were highly sensitive. And I was thinking, yeah, but that's because you're highly sensitive. But they were like, no, no, I don't think so. But I think they've got it. And that's quite a common-- Yeah. That happens. Yeah. But I don't think-- yeah, artists weirdly-- I mean, obviously, I'm just saying from the group that I was in-- Yeah. Quite close to the psychological side of things. They're not necessarily into that at all. Probably because art sort of does it for them, and they're not in search. And so if people, like, at the speeds who are listening, and they're thinking, like, well, I'm not creative, I'm not creative. That belongs to the artists, right? It's not for people like me. What would you say to them? Well, that is the most common words that I ever hear. I mean, anybody who steps over the threshold, what if my lesson always says I'm not creative? I get-- well, I get two groups of people. I get the majority say they're not creative, but they've always fancied touch and play. And then other people have done a degree, like, in the past, haven't been creative for years and years, and they want to rekindle it. So I mean, in my-- for my perspective, I absolutely think that everyone's creative. So it's just about finding what it is. And I think you find what it is. I mean, I've talked quite a bit about my childhood here today. And I do believe that childhood or youth time that has-- before life gets too busy, there will be things that you've done, or that you've witnessed, or that has-- and it could have just been someone coming into school to talk for an afternoon about sailing around the world, for example. It can be something. It's just like a little droplet of pleasure. Or even if you go into a bookshop, and you think, I'm not interested in those books, but I'm interested in those books. So why am I interested in those books? Why do I like that piece of-- that sofa, or that piece of design, or whatever it is? So what I would say is, go back to childhood. Think about your-- and I say this because I was a teacher-- but think about your exercise books. I mean, there's nothing more revealing than a pile of exercise books. So the uneducated eye, you would just think, oh, that's a pile of boring old exercise books. And all the kids copied out the same thing, and all the works the same, and the teachers gone through it with the pen. Actually, each exercise book has-- if you allow kids to do doodles and stuff, which isn't really allowed, unfortunately. But you know-- and this is a stereotype. But girls would often have pencil cases jammed full of colored pencils, for example. And so they would decorate things. And they would use that. And it's like a pleasure. And then later on, you find that they're going into paper chase, which is a brand that is a stationers in the UK. And they would love that. So I just encourage people to think back to, what was it you enjoyed? And for the boys, it's like I have a lot of boys who come and want to do clay. And it's absolutely to do with building, connecting, making something that can then crash into something else and create some catastrophe or something. So it's like, I see that in the children. So all of us have been children at some point. So therefore there is evidence in that. The other thing I'd say is, care your mind. of expectation. If you can do an hour of something, maybe even 20 minutes of something, but with no expectation. So it literally could be putting pen on a piece of paper and doing a doodle, you know, but not having anything in your mind about what is going to come out of this, you know, because often I get, I have people who come and say, "Yes, I want to make a teapot on a set of months." And I'm like, "Okay, okay, let's just take it back a few stages." And also now I'll say, if they're really right, insistent about doing the teapot, I'll say, "Okay, here's a teapot. I want you to make a teapot in 30 minutes." Right? And I just give them enough clay to make a teapot. And it's hilarious because they then make a teapot. You know, it doesn't pour and it doesn't, because actually making a teapot is a very high skill. But what I mean is that I have a lot of people who come in and they have an expectation. And I say, "Well, hold on, just have some clay. And if you could just make some shapes, just make some shapes to get a started, you know. And then inevitably out of the shapes will come something. And then suddenly, you suddenly see someone balancing the shapes on top of each other, and then they go, "Oh, I know what this could be." And then off it goes. And it's the same with a doodle, like doodling 2D. I mean, 3D, I love 3D. So that's why I'm in clay. But there are lots of people who love 2D. And just having, I would say, get yourself some nice kit. That's the other thing. Go to a nice shop, buy some nice kit. It's a nice paper or some nice clay. Or it's going to a shop and buying nice spices and cooking and whatever it is. And then build on your 10 minutes of creativity. It's just like exercise. I'm terrible at exercise, but I'm really good at practicing creativity. So it's like swings around about, I suppose. But it's that if you do 10 minutes a day of something. You could just be going and looking at the patterns in your garden on the leaves. At this time of year, you get lots of different leaves with new patterns and new, you know. And you may or may not draw it. You may take a photo of it. You may, whatever you do with it. But that's you, your brain, all working together to create something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Would you say that it's like one of the easiest things to get started with with clay or if someone is like really not creative, but they want to do something with it. They want to feed that a little bit more. Like what would you start with? Would that be clay or are there other? Well, I think there is a whole range of things. I mean, obviously I'm like pro clay because I've seen how leveling it is. Like nobody's actually good at clay. Do you know what I mean? Like who can come into a workshop and say that they're good at clay. They can't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes I have an eight year old who say I'm really good at clay and I've done all this, you know, and then I'll just give them some play and they're the same as everybody else. Yeah. So it's like, it's a great level of from that perspective. So and then obviously within a class, people pick it up quicker or whatever, you know, but so that's why I like clay. But I would say crochet, knitting, stitching, collecting things is quite a good way to start. So and I find that when I'm not feeling able to be in the flow with clay and things, that's why the shell work came in, is that, you know, going out and collecting some leaves and arranging them and taking a photo of it. Yeah. Really easy. Collage is great. So magazines. Yeah. So much print now in print, you know, go to a shop, just pick up those free magazines and pair of scissors and just cut out some shapes and just make a make a little picture. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. Or some with some of your old photos that you have. Yeah. Photo montage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. Awesome. So that brings me to one of the last questions, like how has embracing both sides of you, the sensitivity and also the creativity, maybe in combination, even with your high sensation seeking, like how does that help to become more fully yourself? Well, I think it's enabled me to be healthier. You know, I think I was crashing. I was like, bust and burn or boom and bust. I think that's the expression, not buster, but boom and bust. And I could never work out why that was. You know, it was like I was doing these fantastic projects, but then I would, you know, then crash and obviously it. So I think just reading Elaine's book 20 years ago enabled me to go, oh, okay, I'm going to have to look after myself more. You know, I'm definitely going to have to have, you know, the buzz word self-care, which everybody loves now, but it definitely means that I can be healthier. And if I can be healthier, then my resilience is greater to deal with things are coming along because it's like, I've actually had a few years since COVID of relentless life, occurrences, things that have come to challenge us me. And it's like, oh, okay, this is all right. You know, it's like as long as I go at my pace and prioritize my sensitivity and feed it because I do get bored, you know, like I can't just stop everything. I have to, it has to have that balance. Then, yeah, it's like, I'm just so much healthier than I would be than I would have been. I mean, I don't, it's one of those things where you just know that you didn't actually have any choice other than to make changes in your life. And also, I have, because I have a non-HSP partner that has been excellent in terms of picking up the slack that he's able to do effortlessly when, you know, I've got two children. So, you know, that sort of thing, that has helped. Having a relationship where I've been able to communicate and still learning to communicate, it's not, it's not easy. But making sure that I communicate, you know, with my kids, with, you know, with my partner, with my colleagues, has helped enormously. Yeah, yeah. Well, one important thing that I heard you say there is that indeed most people don't recognize how much influence and affected it has on our bodies if we are not taking care of ourselves, if we're not authentically or true selves, because I mean, even the word depression, what a lot of HSPs go through is literally if you look at it like you're depressing a part of yourself. And so, if you're not taking care of yourself, your body is going to respond to that. And there's, luckily, there's more and more research also coming out on that. So people let it's more, it's becoming more tangible. But it has indeed a lot of effect on your physical health, like if how you live and if you're truthful to who you are, you're healthier. Yeah, yeah. And I've had, you know, severe periods of depression. And I absolutely know that the solution was listening more to what I wanted and not what I thought I should be doing as a mother or as a wife or as a teacher, you know, it's like listen to again in a voice, which is, you know, can be in many different ways on nature walks with meditation, with, you know, journaling. I do something called the artists' way, which is basically in morning pages, which is like it's a version of journaling. And those are essential tools for the rest of my life, you know. And I think when I met Claire, I also thought, oh, this is going to be my ally for the rest of my life. And I think people have that relationship with gardening. They have that relationship with cooking. You know, there are these sort of staple things that we don't have to think like, oh, I'm just doing this because I'm retired or I'm doing this because, you know, I'm going to be better to do on a Thursday evening or something. You know, it's like, no, these are fundamental building blocks of one's existence. As I highly sensed a person, and I found that very comforting to know that I can have these things and they belong to me. And I've chosen them and I can see the cause and effect in my life. Yeah. Wow, that's beautifully said. I love that. Thank you. Yeah. So as we're coming to the end now, is there something else that we haven't talked about yet or something you would really want to share like your last words of wisdom in this episode. I think we've covered most of it. I think I've got my message across, but I suppose there's one thing which I still, I'm doing inverted commas, but you can't see that obviously because it's all dear, but inverted commas, my relationship with overwhelm, although I've done a lot of work on myself and I've read a lot of research and things, I still suffer, you know, before an event like before doing the podcast, before hosting an HSP cafe in Bath, before I present, before running a workshop, whatever it is, I, my body is just in a heightened state of anxiety and my inner child goes nuts with sort of fear, I mean it's just fear, you know. And I have it, even when I go to visit a school for my children's parents evenings, I have it, you know, and my husband's like, it's so chill, he's like, you know, he doesn't really care about a parent's evening, he goes on, I'm like, you know, redneck, super stressed, like, yeah, and I've tried absolutely everything, you know, I've let, she tried everything and I was, I think probably about 10 years ago, I sort of agreed with myself that this was just solidly part and parcel of, of the HSP highly sensitive and probably HSS as well, that I can't, because I care deeply and because I'm very conscientious and because I've been thinking about this thing for many more hours than your average person thinks, I think, yeah, about anything I do, I can't avoid the overwhelm, you know, so I have to meditate beforehand, I have to go for a walk around the block, I have to jump up and do star jumps or I have to imagine canceling it in order to, I self-realize how much I want to do it, you know. And I suppose I just want to tell your listeners that it's like, understand that even the most experienced people who've done stuff and been out in the world doing things, it's still a challenge, well it is a change for me anyway. And so I make sure that the person I'm working with knows that I have this and I choose the right people if I can, who I'm collaborating with and working with and I'm trying to be as transparent as possible. Yeah, yeah, well I love that, just embrace the depths of processing and all the feelings that come with that and just stick with it. Yeah, just feel the fear and do it anyway. Yeah, exactly. It was a book in the 80s I think, wasn't it? Yeah, I remember the title indeed, yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, it was a really pleasure talking to you today, Lorna, and I'm happy that you got to share about creativity and how this can influence our lives in a positive way. So thank you very much for being a guest. Thank you very much. And I also want to just give a quick shout out to the whole sort of support group around Elaine Aaron, who has mentored me and supported me over the years. So it's been, you know, it has been, I do think that it's wonderful that there is that structure to support us all. Yeah, we need that. You're one of those people, but you know, with Barbara and Jacqueline and Elaine and all of those people, it's really great. So thank you. Yes, thank you for having me on. You're welcome. We all need that support and that community feeling. So that's awesome. Yeah. Okay, well, thanks. Thank you. Thank you for listening to sensitive and strong. If you know anyone that can benefit from listening to this podcast, please share it with them. And if you're ready to embrace your sensitivity and step into your power, then visit my website, highsensitivecoaching.com and sign up for my monthly newsletter. Stay informed about all the programs that I'm offering and help you thrive as a highly sensitive person. 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