Creative Strategist Explains How to Get Brands to Hire You for UGC with Olivia Larsen | EP 29

If you have ever wondered what the brand is thinking when they hire UGC creators, you're going to want to listen to this episode. Welcome back to the UGC 101 podcast. I'm your host, Nate Flake. And today we are joined by Olivia. Olivia, thanks so much for hopping on. Yeah, I'm so glad to be here. Yeah. So I always ask my guests this the first time, give us the intro. How did you get the UGC? Where are you from? Kind of give us the little bio. Yeah, so I have a very, you know, flip side of story. I actually got my bachelor's degree in biology. I was working in wildlife conservation. I was working 12 hour overnight shift in a veterinary ER, right? So sleep deprived and underpaid. And I wanted to be able to travel more. And I realized obviously with my work, I couldn't do that. I had some micro-influencing on the side of my own page where I was getting, you know, like gifted in exchange for like posts. And then I started to realize I can make money off of this. So I started charging, you know, and raising my rate until I was just kept getting nose. And then the term UGC came along like three years ago, three plus years ago. And I jumped right into it when I went all in, turned it into a full-time income. And here I am today. That was so crazy. I talked to all sorts of, you know, UX designers. I've never talked anyone that went into biology and then left that, right? And then you were like in your full veterinary office or like what were you doing there? Yeah, so I was an exotic veterinary technician. So I was I was working with Aadian species. I was working with reptiles, foxes, like the whole shebang. I was even an audit trainer in an aquarium. That is crazy. That's also like a dream job. I feel like but maybe that's not the right thing. Oh, it was. It was. But I couldn't pay my bills. So, you know, do you still dabble in the exotic animal industry? So occasionally I'll volunteer. I like a local wildlife rescue. Like on the weekends, I'll do that kind of thing. Just one ever at a time. But yeah. So when did you just, when, so you got into micro-inflencing first, right? You're like, oh, I'm going to build up this page. When did you, after you started doing you, do you see when did you say, like, oh, this thing has legs? Like at what point was that for you? I think everybody's different, right? And I get this question all the time. It's like, when do I, when do I know I can jump from this to that? And like, when was that moment for you? Yeah. So honestly, I started doing some social media management as well. So I was managing some big accounts. And I was seeing their brand deals. And I was realizing how much money there was in it. And then looking at myself, like, these brands have been getting all this free content. And I'm just content with the, with the product. Like, let's start charging these rates. So I would say after about like, four, like four to five months of me going, you know, getting serious about UGC creation, I didn't like, with my other income strings. I was still doing social media management, some BA stuff too. But I would say about like, I think four to five months in, I got a four figure deal with Amazon. And I was like, okay, it's time. And so I just kind of took the leap. And that's that's when I jumped in. So I was making, you know, it was a point where I was making like, probably an extra thousand, two thousand ish a month. And I was like, okay, like I can, I could really make something out of this. Yeah, let's double down and let's see what we can do. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, and it sounds like you were doing like 10 jobs too at the same time. So you're probably like, I would love to have some time back, right? And like narrow down your focus. 100% I think that's like a big, this is like a little sign, but I think that's a big, I don't know if I'd say a problem or a trend I see in this space is a lot of people try to do, like it's hard to do a lot of things really well if you're doing 10 things, right? And so, you know, whether it be, and there's some people that crush, I just the episode before this, right? We talked to Arin Abdull about TikTok shop, they're crushing doing TikTok shop. But like a lot of people are like, I'm doing TikTok shop. I'm also doing digital marketing affiliate sales. And I'm also doing UGC and I also have a micro, I don't like dude. How are you focusing on any of those things? Like and then and then on top of that, like some of these people I pulled out jobs too, which I tip my hat to. I was only able to do that for about a year and a half before, yeah, before I was like, okay, something's got to give because I don't have enough time in the day, you know? Yeah, 100% and that too, when I was looking at, you know, ways to also scale my UGC business, that is why I did, you know, get into creative strategy as well because it's just a part of it, right? It's not kind of like a separate entity that I necessarily have to handle separately. It's just like a part of the process. But like if I was still trying to do social media management, I like, VA work, running that other stuff, it would be, it would be a lot to balance there. Yeah. So I really want to kind of dive into the brand side, right? Of like what you've learned, things you thought were one way and they're different, like all those type of questions. At what point did you get into creative strategy? Was it, did you happen to fall into that, or was that something you always wanted to do? Yeah, so honestly, I was looking at, you know, how much I was taking on as a UGC creator and where my cap was going to be, and I wanted to be able to, you know, increase my income when I'm just one person, right? And I wasn't necessarily looking to hire an assistant quite yet. And you know, that's when you hear, you know, Kelly, UGC Pro talking about creative strategy all the time. And I was like, okay, let me look into this some more. I started looking into it. And then I just started offering like, little elements of it to my current, like, retainers and UGC clients. Really, yeah, you know, we'd love some extra ideation this month, or we'd love some script writing. And then I start asking for analytics and stuff like that. So when I realized that I could kind of put that together and package it as a whole new service on top of UGC creation, that's kind of when I started doing it for my own client. And that was about like a year and a half ago, like a little over a year and a half ago. And then I was like, you know, what I want to dive fully into this skill set. And I don't necessarily know if I want to, you know, make it through a course or like through a job. And so I started looking at creative strategy roles. I was like, because I'm very much a hands-on learner. Like I can watch courses, I can read resources and stuff. But I very much learn like on the job. So I was like, all right, let me do this. And for me, it was like, okay, I can also keep my UGC creation business alive during this because it's very, it's kind of coherent. Now it was a lot to balance. I'm not going to front on that. Like, it's been a lot. But I got into the creative strategy role with the marketing agency. And it's a very competitive role, I will say. I've had so many different jobs, right? I was saving lives of animals. And I was like, I've had all these different jobs. The creative strategy role was the most intensive interview process I've ever experienced, which was like, that surprised me. And I think like, give me some context that like, are they just like telling you with like data point type questions or like, are they like, okay, I need the analytics. Like, what do you look for in a campaign? Like, give me some, you don't have to like, out the company or whatever. But like, what kind of questions are they asking you? Yeah. So it was basically like, they were putting you in the job role and being like, tell me what you do. So it's like, okay, we get a client come in. What's your first step? They'd have me. So I basically already had to be like a full blown creative strategist in order to answer all of their questions and go through the whole process. They had me do like a demo, creative brief, and like a demo campaign. Like I had, I did ideation, I did script writing. And then they also had, they sent me footage like raw footage to review. Because that's, you know, what you would do as a creative strategist as well. So they had me reviewing footage, looking for things like looking for things that were purposefully wrong. And like, right, reviewing drafts, or looking for like in the captions, I had to look for, you know, misspelling or like, if they miss key points in the script, like, I basically had to do a trial of the job itself just for the interview process. So and they reviewed everything like it was like, they gave me a project pretty pretty much and I had to complete it. So it was extensive. Luckily, like, now I've known a lot of people who have applied for tons of different creative strategy roles and not gotten it, gotten it unfortunately. But the first one I applied for, I got all the way through and then for some reason the brand was like, we can't move forward, which was strange. And then the, this is a little bit of a backstory. But in the, the, the lead of that department reached out to me separately and was like, hey, I'm not sure why they're not letting you go all the way through. But would you work with us as a contractor? Which was like, that's weird. But then the second role I got was with the agency I'm with now. And it was still an extensive process. So it's whether it's a brand side or agency that you're applying for it. It's going to be an extensive process. Yeah. Well, the, the flow and like, the, the, the setup of, of work flows, right? It's basically the same from brand agency. The only difference is you're working with way more brands. Obviously. Yeah. Yeah. Which was also honestly kind of glad. I was glad that I got to be on the agency side more because I've gotten so much more experience with so many different types of brands and niches on the creative strategy side, which has given me huge insight for my own UGC creation. That's awesome. I want to random question. I just was thinking about because there's a lot of people that are trying to get into this creative strategy side. And I, I, I like that you have some context of like, hey, it's freaking competitive, right? It's hard to do. The interviews are not super easy. You have to have, you know, experience it with, with analytics and all that. And what you're looking for and scripting and, and, and ideation of creative, how often so you're still doing UGC on the side, basically, right? Is it against the roles to cast yourself in any of these? Like, like, how does that work? Absolutely not. Like I've had some brands through the agency. It just depends on the client, like, because we get talent approved. So if they approve me, then I'll be in the concepts. Like, so we've had some, some hair care brands that, like the curls. I'm like, yeah, I can do that. Half the time too. I'm getting the B role. So sometimes I'll just hire, you know, creators to get to do the script breed and like get some like product application back kind of stuff a lot of times I'm getting the beauty shots, you know, I'm getting a lot of the B roles so that I have a little bit more control over production. But yeah, no, I cast myself all the time. It's like if I fit the target demographic, then I can do it. But you know, some of my clients are like the target demographic is like, you know, 45, 50 year old Caucasian women, which I don't fit, right? Or it's like for men or something like that. So yeah, you can definitely cast yourself. Yeah, I was always always wondering about that. I'm like, does that? I mean, you also are like based on your own bandwidth too. You're like, well, I can't take on, you know, four or more videos this week, but you know, we'll send three of them out. That's interesting. What was the, like, so now you're in creative strategy and you've been in it for what you're in half, you said. Yeah, about. Okay. So what was the, what was one kind of misconception you had about the role and about just creative strategy as a whole that turned out to be, you know, way different than you imagined? Yeah. Every, so I tell this to everyone, it's all on you. Doesn't matter if you're working with a team with a brand, if you're working with an agency, the performance, the process, the timeline, the client handling, it's all on you, right? So like, yes, I'm working with an agency, but that's my client, you know, whether it's a success or a failure, it's all on you. So there's a lot of pressure that comes with the world that I actually was not expecting because when you come from UGC organization, you know, you're used to just, oh, here are the deliverables. Okay. Right? But exactly. But as a creative strategist, you're like, okay, I got to make sure these deliverables, you're doing draft review, all that stuff. Okay. Now it runs. What's happening? I'm analyzing performance. Oh, it's doing terrible. Okay. This is how we're going to fix this. And like, it's like a never ending. It's never ending, right? You're, you're always involved and you always have to be a part of that process and improve and improve and improve. How do you want to spend like on how much they're spending? So I have no control over how much they spend. I'm more just, I get the, like, I'm in their ad account, but I'm not the media buyer. So I'm in their ad account. Sometimes I get to, you know, I get to be in touch with their media buyer to see how they're going to set things up. Obviously, we want to be, you know, we want to have our, our finger on the pulse of what Meta is doing, like with Andromeda coming out and all that. So I don't have control over how much they spend. I just got to monitor how performance goes. I can offer advice to like, hey, there might be too many videos in this campaign. Like it's not going to get enough spend. Like I can offer some insights or advice, but it's up to that if they listen. Are you involved at all with the media buyer? So the media buyers for again, we, this podcast is for a lot of new creators. There are a lot of advanced creators too, right? So media, that's another thing does the buying. Right. So like you're making the ad, you're, creator makes the ad per your instruction, right? We're going to go through the whole flow. Then they send you the ad, right? And then you package it up to give it to the media buyer. The media buyer is the one that's actually setting up the backend ads of like, Hey, here's the, here's the, here's the audience we want to say we want everybody that's between 30 and 45 that lives in Florida to see this ad, right? Or whatever. Like they're setting up their, their ICP or whatever. They're, and then from there, that's where you're seeing like, okay, this one's performing horribly. This one's performing well. So the media buyer, like, you don't necessarily have a say in like what that audience is, right? When we're talking about audience, talking about like who the, you know, like what, like I'm a, I'm a 38 year old Caucasian in Utah, right? I'm not going to get an ad for a 45 year old female in Florida, for example. So how involved are you on like that and like the audience and stuff like that? Yeah. So it can really kind of depend with my own clients, like outside of the agency. If I am able to get in touch with the media buyer, I like to be close with the media. That's something I had to really learn. Like I didn't even know what a media buyer was until I got into green strategy, right? Because I was thinking it was just the brand was setting up the ads, you know, but there is somebody who, that's their whole job. That's their, they're dedicated to doing that too, right? They usually contract that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you want to get somebody who's good, because if you know, it doesn't matter how good the ad creative was, like it can just mess up the whole system. But yeah. So on my side, outside of the agency, sometimes I am able to be in touch with the media buyer and let them know, hey, this is our target target audience, you know, and I can have kind of like an open channel with them. But mostly time on the agency side, it's just we give them the deliverables and then we hope they know what they're doing when they set it up. And sometimes they really screws us over when they don't. It's actually crazy. Like the whole process of UDC, like the video, I mean, in my opinion, tell me if I, if tell me if you disagree with this, I think that's why UDC is so great is because this process is so, there's so many moving pieces to getting an ad out the door. Let's say that's your product, right? Because there's so many pieces and so many parts where you can mess it up. That's why UDC is so great because comparatively, if you're paying an influencer or you're sending a crew out to Utah to film a $10,000 video in a cariboractor office, right? And then imagine a media buyer messes that up. That sucks. But like if you're paying someone $300 to do a video and it messes up, like, yeah, that's annoying for sure, but it's not $10,000 annoying, right? Or it's not $20,000 annoying. So I think that's why UDC is so great because you're able to A, B test so quickly and so for so cheap, right? But like there's so many pieces along the way where you're, and here's, and also my opinion is you can have a bad ad and a good media buyer and like they can make it work, but you can't work with a bad media buyer, right? Now you cannot. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I tell my students, like, dude, like you have full of the brief, like in a day, like you're going to try to make the best content you can. But I've seen some real crap ads perform like psycho on meta, right? Like it's, it's pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and another thing is to yes, there's an algorithm. Yes, there's a media buyer behind it. Yes, we're doing our best. We're falling the brief. But at the end of the day, you know, it's a, that algorithm is a beast of its own as well. And it's, and it's always changing as we can see. There's always something new coming out. And so obviously, like I tried it. That was another thing I had to realize too because you, you see it instead of a UDC creator, the brand just won't come back for more, you know, if it doesn't perform well as a creative strategist, like you, you kind of feel that way. You feel that failure a lot more because you're like, I just put, you know, a month worth of my energy and effort into this campaign and like nothing, right? Yeah. So you kind of have to look at it sometimes. And then you'll get the, the most like throw away ad is the one that, you know, scales and is their top performing. You're like, yeah. Where did that work? But you also have to realize, yeah, like the algorithm is a beast in itself. You're, you got to do your best. It is just all learning. Like don't take it personally. Don't take it. The failure like personally, just learn from it. Just learn from it. You know? Yeah. How, how have you, did you have any experiences like that early on? Like, I mean, I'm sure you still have things where you're obviously you're, you're in a half-end. You're still learning and trying to improve like you were saying any experiences like that early on, you're like, oh, that's something I need to like keep in like from now on. I'll never do that. Or I'm always going to make sure I do this instead. Yeah. So I would say when I first got the Creative Strategy role, I was kind of like people were going in and out of that agency. So I was thrown into a lot of live projects. And I would say one of the things that I learned really quickly was that the on camera presence of the talent can 100% make a break. Because yes, we're giving them the script. And if even if they do everything that we tell them to do, but they're they're they're energy isn't right where it needs to be. It can actually really affect performance because as humans, we can read each other through a strain. We can re like we can see like, okay, this is forced, right? Yes, she's saying all these things, right? But it feels forced is it to be unnatural? It doesn't feel real. So that's why I always emphasize so heavily on all my socials. Everybody talks to about on camera presence. Because people say be genuine, be authentic, right? But what does that mean? So you actually have to you have to learn how to be genuine, how to be authentic on camera. It's going to be different. You have to learn how to bring that out. So that was one of the biggest things. I was like, okay, yeah, she can get pretty, you know, B role and she can say these lines. And she's great to communicate with. But her on camera presence feels forced. And so I had to I had to get really, really picky with my talent. So let's go back to that real fast. You're saying because like some end and this may seem like really offensive to a lot of people. Some people's natural authentic self might be off putting, right? Like just because like and I'm like, I like cook my wife on this. She's like the most of people that don't know my wife thinks she's just like R.B.F. like she's just like, oh, she's very cold. But she's actually super cool. Like obviously I'm married, but like she doesn't, she's not like super extroverted, right? So I were to like, hey, read this script in your normal tone. You'd be like, oh, this person hates that product. And you know, but like, no, it's just not hers. She's not like a super outgoing bubbly person. And I feel like some people, I get those two right in my community. I'll get like, hey, when you look at this video and like tell me what you think. And I'm like, do you like hate your life? Because that's what this video seems like, right? Like just I understand that that's, well, that's not me. I'm not, I'm not bubbly like dude, you got a, you're an actor at the end of the day. You got to turn it on for that 35 seconds. Right. It doesn't need to be over the top. So what I tell people, and this is like my little advice is like if I'm doing a script, right? And I'm just going to like pull up a random script. This is, I've never done this on a podcast. We're just going to do it anyways. So like, if I pull up a script, right? And I end the hook for me. This is what I just did yesterday with my daughter. Right. The perfect gift for guys doesn't exist. Doesn't exist. My daughter got me this for Christmas. I've used it every single day since, right? You want you, I always try to go way [BLANK_AUDIO] I start out way crazier, like, very crazier energy that I've ran whatever want. And then I dial it back for the second take. Because I think it's harder to dial it up without saying, I don't know, it sounds way weird, but like, if I start like just reading that normal, like, yeah, the perfect gift doesn't for guys doesn't exist. My daughter got me this last Christmas, I've used it every single day since. Okay, let's go a little more energy. The perfect, it's way easier for me to go crazy, be like, the perfect gift for guys doesn't exist. My daughter got me, I'm trying to go crazy and then dial it down slightly, right? And I feel like, I'm trying to tell people, like, yeah, you don't have to, you're in half-dirt the end of the day. Like, yes, you need to have, and I think that's like what you're saying is like, your presence authentic does not equate to like your real self. Like, you don't talk about your body. That's what you have to look at. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, unless you are lucky, yeah, unless you are lucky enough to be one of those, like, really, some people really just are like that in person. And it's almost too much in person. But I always say to, yeah, like, and this is a discussion a lot of people didn't want to have for a while. But UGC creators, we are actors. At the end of the day. Oh, yeah. And like, now, you know, you may still be talking about a product that you love, that you have used. Like, you're not relying or being fake. You never want to lie or be fake, and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, yeah, we're actors. And it's funny you mentioned, like, info-marshall, and kind of bring it down, because I actually work with a lot of actors too. So like, sometimes I'll put a casting called on backstage, right? And I'll take creators or I'll take actors. And I've noticed like with actors, yes, they start a little info-marshall, and then I'm just like, okay, let's dial it down a little bit, and then they're right where I want them to be, right? But with creators, if they're not already kind of up there, and I have to like push them, it's like, it's a lot harder to get them there. So yeah, like, when I said you have to learn, learn how to be your authentic or genuine on camera, you're not, you're learning how to be on camera, right? You're not learning how to be yourself. You're learning how to be on camera. And you got to think about like, I'm actually posting a video today about like, who would you rather watch? If you watch somebody who's just like, 'cause if I were to just just kind of talk about this, like, I'm totally happy, but this is not really engaging. But like, I'm talking to you like this, and you know, I'm looking around and I was smiling, and I got my hands moving, like, yes, it takes a lot more energy, but it's more engaging, and that's what we need, right? To capture people's attention. So yeah, 100% agree with the energy levels there. - Yeah, it's like I have like a personality, that's like my UGC personality, and then I have like my normal personality. And then there's some people that are like, "Hey, we want this like very, very, very organic feeling, you know, skit type thing." I'm like, okay, I'll give it to you, like, the literally like the lowest energy possible, and then see what the bill, you ask for it, you know, like, but my default is exactly what you're saying. I try to go, not like crazy, and then I'm like, "I'm a little bit more emotional, but like, right below that." Because again, like your voice is a hook, your hands are hooks, like, even looking, I actually do that a lot too, as it helps me if I teleprompter honestly. I'll read over the head, and then I'll look off cameras, if I'm not reading, just to like make it look more natural, and then bring it back to the camera. And it's just like, yeah, yeah. Like when you start to fill yourself reading, you look like, "It's the craziest thing, I'm usually gonna get this gift, this light goes here and here, and like, it's just more fun to watch honestly. Yeah, and all, honestly too, just from like a psychological point of view, I think we look to the left when we're thinking, when we're processing. And so it's kind of like a subconscious cue that you're giving to another person, they're like, "Okay, they're actually thinking about what they're saying." So then it just does exactly, exactly. So yeah, you do wanna look around, and you can look down, or you can, you know, look up, and you want to have that natural movement in there. You don't wanna be so stiff. So. - Yeah. I wanna go back to what you said about like, you know, this is something with people trying to avoid talking about for a long time. And I talked about this with my community all the time as well. It's like, "Well, what if I don't like the product?" I'm like, "Dude, I probably don't like 80% of the products I get, right?" And not that they're bad. I mean, there's something that are like, definitely not good. I'm like, whatever, but they're selling crazy, crazy quantity, right? Again, you guys don't have to love the product. You can have your moral stances of like, there's certain industries like, I don't do gambling for the most part. I held on to do for crypto. I had a really bad experience with crypto. But like, yeah, someone like added me as like, their chief marketing officer and put me on a scam, that was bad. But like, there's certain industries I don't do. But like for the, for the majority of like, products, even if I frickin' think the product sucks, they gave me a script man, I'm getting paid to the script, right? - It's a business at the end of the day. - Yeah. - I mean, for me personally too, especially if you are a creator who's wanting to build like a large personal brand or if you're already an influencer, you wanna be mindful of things. Like, you know, I have a lot of like lingerie companies that reach out to me and stuff like that. Love lingerie, but you want me to be on camera in that. I might have to pass, you know? - Or a chat. - Yeah, I think like whatever you put out there is gonna be out there forever. Like I have people who send me my ads all the time, family members, friends, people from high school. People are gonna see your stuff. They're gonna see your stuff. And it's gonna be out there. It could be out there for a long time. So I think be mindful of that. Like, I'm not a huge makeup person, but like, also work with makeup brands, you know? - Yeah. - I don't have to be obsessed with or like really in love with the product, but I do have boundaries for myself. Like, I have, I definitely have brands that I prefer and actually attract more of for a reason. I won't, I actually don't work with a lot of fast fashion brands, you know, that kind of stuff. So like, you can be mindful and you can be mindful and picky and still make good money, but it depends like you can just look at it like a business which it is, right? And like, you know, you may have never heard of this product and then in the script you say, "I've been using it for a year now." And I love that it is. I think we're at the point now too. People are aware of these kind of ads. And you know, we're having to put disclosures like this is a partnership ad, like there's coming new rules like where we have to disclose it. - Yeah. - And that, yes, it kind of sucks for performance when you have to write that this isn't ad, you know? Because the whole point of UGC before was supposed to be more organic and like an actual user. But, you know, the whole, the industry's constantly evolving. We've got to adapt. And people are more aware of these kind of ads. So I think there's less of this kind of moral dilemma because people know it's an ad. And they've never gotten mad at actors for saying stuff that's completely not true. - Yeah. - So I think it's just getting people more comfortable with that aspect of what UGC creation is kind of growing. - And so going back to like brands you've worked with, has your conservation/exotic, exotic animal care collided with your UGC yet? Have you ever done any projects like that? - Not quite yet. The reason I had to get out of it is the same reason why I haven't worked with a lot of projects and that is money. They don't have budget. It's all passion projects. And I was working, I was doing purpose over paycheck for a while and then I'll end it after so long if you have a certain lifestyle and experience you want to live. But I, so I also worked with dogs a lot, obviously, right? Dogs have a huge space in my heart. And I've worked with a lot of pet brands and stuff like that. And I started a project called Live for Canines, where I was working with brands to get donations for animal shelters. I was really trying to draw that bridge between animals and conflict creation. But it is a project that takes a lot. And I was actually surprisingly running into a lot of issues with shelters not wanting me to film, which is red flag. - Totally. - Yeah, no, somewhere totally fine and somewhere like, no. So I would get the product from the brand. And I thought, you know, 20, 30 bags of dog food and they were like, you can't film here. So the brand, so the brand, the whole exchange was the brand, we'll get UGC from me and my dog. But also they'll show that they donated to this animal shelter and this dog who's been here for this many years or is about to get adopted gets these treats from this. I wanted to integrate kind of like doing good for the community and the key USPs of the product and stuff. So that was the idea behind it. On the Yike, where I was then, you know, 'cause I just moved to Florida. When I was in North Carolina, I was running into a lot of issues with shelters not wanting me to film and the UGC got to film. So there was a bit of a pause on that project, but now I'm gonna be bringing it back to life soon here. But that's the only way I've been kind of able to draw that bridge between those. - Yeah, well, I need it sounds like you do a lot of volunteer stuff to kind of scratch that edge too. That's great. So going back to the brand side, when we're talking, so a lot of creators, right, I feel like there's so many opinions out there of like, what are brands look for? What should your portfolio look like? Is somebody who hires creators, okay? Like, hey, what is the first question you get when people find that out? What's, I wanna hear what the most popular question you get is from creators when they see that you're, I'm sure you get your DMs slid into every single day from creators like, hey, Olivia, tell me this, right? Like, what is your first question you get? And we'll see. - Yeah, I'd say, the biggest question is always like, well, first, they'll just send me their portfolio. I'd be like, can you look at this and tell me what's wrong? Or can you look at my socials and tell me what's wrong? And the thing is, it's not like, they'll ask me, what website should I use for my portfolio? That does not matter. Doesn't matter what website you use for your portfolio. Or they'll be like, oh, you know, I mean, a big question is how many videos, which is pretty valid. I would say, you know, it can depend how early on you're in, but I would say like five to eight, it's like a really easy starting point. 'Cause you can have a few different examples of different styles of videos within, you know, five to eight UGC videos, right? And those can be made with products you have around your house. You don't have to get brand deals yet. You don't have to go out and buy stuff. Like I can talk about this, you know, these reading glasses and just be like, you know, boom, just go straight into it. - Yeah. - But I would say, yeah, like how many videos should I have and my portfolio is, something I see too. What should I be posting about? Is a question I get a lot. >> My examples. >> Yeah, on your socials. So I would say, I mean, you definitely want to post UGC examples. You'll see people like us. We might not post them as much because we already have a foundation said that they already know what we do. Nine times out of ten people don't even ask me for my portfolio anymore. >> It's been a while since I had that. >> Yeah, but when you're starting out, you do. You do want to post examples. And then you also want to post content that shows brands you actually know how to create what goes into creating high quality content. So talking about consumer psychology or editing, you know, if you're really good at editing, some people are really, really good at that. Like just going into like doing editing tutorials. So you're literally just advertising that you are really good editor when it comes to your UGC concepts. I just kind of finding what you're like really good at in your process of UGC creation and highlighting that in your content. Like for me, I like storytelling. I like, you know, comedic things. I like analytics. They like, I'll go into all that kind of stuff in my content. But it doesn't just have to be examples. But if you just, I mean, you can post them like blogs and lifestyle stuff here and there. But unless you're trying to be an influencer, I don't really care what you did on a Saturday. >> Yeah. >> You know, that has nothing to do with with near or the brands that I'm hiring. >> So. >> Well, and I think that going back to what you first were talking about, like having camera presence. I feel like just you posting face I see a lot of people that are doing a lot of voice over stuff on their socials. Which is like, yeah, it's like that's good. But like you also need this is UGC man. This isn't this isn't TikTok shop where you like you have to face the camera. >> Yeah. >> Right. Unless you're trying to do this list, which is I that's a argument for another day. >> I'm glad you brought that up because I have recently had a lot of people asking me like on TikTok more people on TikTok asking if I can do faces. >> Oh, I'm sorry. That's a max of it does that. >> But I'll get DMs to like, can I do face this UGC? Where's the it's user generated content? Where's the user? If your face isn't in at some point now it does not have to be a full face to cam concept, right? But it's all about the user. So if the user isn't present, it's not new GC. That's just the B-roll that their team could have got. That's the whole reason they're hiring you because that's somebody who hires creators too. Like half the time I'll get along the B-roll shops. So like, what do I need you for if your face isn't going to be in it? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know? >> Well, I think a lot of people are like scared. I think there's two things of that. I think people are either working full time and they're scared. Their employer is going to see it, which is like, I did that. And guess what you sell. And yeah, I do. I have a side hustle where I do marketing videos after hours. That's like I said. That was true. >> Yeah. I mean, as long as you're not. >> No, go ahead. >> Yeah, because as long as you're not talking bad about that company or if maybe don't work with their competitors, if you're with a specific kind of product like that, you can get around. They have nothing on you if you're just doing that as a side hustle. Like as long as it has nothing to do with affecting their business. >> Yeah, that's exactly what I did. Well, and the funny thing is I did have a competitor of my, I was on the QuickBooks side. And I had a brand send me a deal through fiber. They were a partner of ours. And they didn't know that I worked with QuickBooks obviously. I had my guy on fiber. And they were like, send me this ad just bashing QuickBooks. It was a script. I was like, hey, sorry, I actually work for QuickBooks. I actually know your partner manager too. His name is blank. I'm like, I can't do this one there. Oh, we're so sorry. We were just joking about the script that was so funny. It was so funny. And I'm like, damn, dude, that's crazy. I like someone's going to run that ad. But I also spoiler alert for everybody that's listening. If you're working full time, your boss, your boss's boss, everybody's got side hustles. It's 2025. Like to make them feel like you can't do anything outside of your 95 job is actually crazy. But I think people are scared to get on camera for either that reason they don't want someone to see it. They're just like introverted and like, I don't want to do this UGC thing, but I don't want to get on camera. No one cares what I don't know. That's like my biggest struggle with new creators is they're scared that people are going to judge them or they're going to look stupid. Yeah, like you're for sure going to look stupid. Like you got to just get over that. Like you're for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it. Yeah. I have like a tough love approach when people come to me like that. Like if you don't want to be on camera, don't do UGC. If you want to do UGC, you're going to have fun on how to be on camera, you know, which one do you want more? And that's just, you know, it was, I mean, think about it when you were growing up, like learning how to ride a bike was scary. And it was weird. It was awkward. Right. But you wanted to learn how to ride a bike. So you got on there and you did that. And you could get a lot hurt a lot more riding a bike than putting your face on the camera. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just something you got to learn. You got to train. You got to get comfortable with it. And it could take a long time. There's still sometimes where like I said, if I'm filming in public and I do that on purpose, do like desensitize myself. I'll go to coffee shops in public places. I'll be outside. And exactly. And you know, I keep, I haven't posted it yet, but I keep a lot of the raw footage from the interactions I have when I'm filming outside. I have never, now I know it exists. But I have never had someone come up to me and be like, like, what are you doing? Like you can't bear my all you're so creative. Like I've never, it's always like, oh, sorry, am I in your videos? No, you're fine. Or it's like, what are you filming for? People are curious. Super. But at the end of the day, if somebody says something to you, the only way that's going to affect you is if you let it. You know, so keep doing you, you're making money. Yeah, I agree. Unless they're paying your bills, don't let anyone's else's opinions matter at all. You know, going back to the brand, the brand side of the greatest strategy side, I wanted to ask you. So, port like the questions you're getting right the number one is like, what's wrong with my portfolio or what's wrong with my socials? What should I be doing more of? Well, it's not about actually working with working with creators, right? So you're working with a ton of creators. It's probably different than when you thought it was going to be when you were create, well, you still are a creator, but when you weren't a creator, just what are some things that shocked you about? Either creator, behavior or like things they're doing wrong and then what can they do right? What's some good advice? Like give us give us a couple points of like some pointers. Yeah, so some of the big one of the biggest thing too is because I'm also part of like a larger cohort of mainly agency founders and brand owners. So I've gotten to talk to them a lot and the biggest thing is realizing we're both people just trying to do our job, right? So when I've noticed there's a quite there's a much higher level of entitlement coming from creators these days. And I think it's just from stuff that they're seeing on social media like they're seeing a veteran creator talk about their rates or how they handle negotiations and stuff. And then someone started two months ago was thinking they can do the same thing. Incorrect. You do not have that kind of leverage. And I think that's a big misunderstanding like people don't understand the kind of leverage that they need to have in order to make certain requests, more have certain expectations. So I think that was the biggest thing when I was on the receiving end of something someone being like for raw footage and like we're doing. So a lot of the time for the agency we just do raw footage right we give you the script we give you the shot list you get everything all you do is film right. But you know back in the day when I first started like a brand comes to you and they're like hey we want three videos. This is the product. It's it. Go ahead right and you got to come up with the ideation you got to come up with the script you got to come up with the shot list you're doing all you're doing the editing all that stuff. But now and then you had your rate for that you had your price for that. But now people are wanting to change like charge the same amount the same rate for doing a quarter of the work. And so that's something that I'm seeing because on the negotiations side is the brand I'm like hey we're we're doing all this all you have to do is film that rate is for like a fully edited UGC video that's not what we're asking for. Yeah. And so that was a big realization that I had when I do my own negotiations to and seeing how there is a difference there and realizing the difference in workload and expectations so that was a big thing that I saw from creators that I was like guys let's get real here and I didn't realize that so many creators were like. And I'm like come on and you know I was like I can say this because I am a creator and I've done this full I was a UGC creator full time for two years I thought I did. And you know now I'm on the brand side as well and like so I can speak on this you guys are you guys are entitled you know. And so that was a bit of a flap in the face when when I started experiencing that and then one thing to is this huge thing about usage rights and I think as creators can't wait I want to hear your. I think now I I completely shifted my standpoint on this at first you know I was hearing stuff on social media and I was like oh yeah they can run this from from. From years and like I wouldn't be making any money off of it and so I had this standpoint on it right and then I recently not recently but like a couple months ago I actually had a conversation with a brand owner she is featured on shark tank all that stuff in the way she put it I don't necessarily 100% agree but it showed me how the brands and agencies are thinking about this she was like you know when I hire a graphic designer to make me a logo once they make me the logo it's mine. They're not asking me to pay you know like royalties or whatever fees every time I put it on my website or put it in a video or put it on this that in the other they made me an asset that I paid for that asset and now it's mine and I'm going to use it. So now whether or not I mean there's different there's levels to it right but that's how a lot of agencies and and brand owners are looking at add creators you see ads right yeah. So that's why there's such a disconnect with creators are like you could be using my face free years which somebody who's in add accounts regularly that's not going to happen even talk performers creative fatigue is a thing it's it's not going to. be out there. They might remix things and you like reuse footage, but even then like it's not going to be out there for does not right as well as you think it's going to be out there. But there's this huge disconnect between creators realizing that their stuff's not going to be out there for centuries and you know, and then brands also realizing we are brands also have to realize to we are using their likeness, you know, this isn't a logo. Yes, it's a deliverable, but it isn't a logo. These are people they have maybe personal brands and stuff and you know, everybody's just trying to make their money fairly, right? Yeah, but I would say usage rights, like usage rights, I don't hire anybody from the agency side that doesn't offer usage rights and perpetuity. And I get that that's not for everyone. Do you expect them to charge a little bit more for perpetual? Yeah, I think I think that you should chart, I don't think that you should give usage rights and perpetuity, like just included, like for free. No, absolutely not. You should definitely have a rate for it. But I think it should be an option. My biggest thing is I don't tell I don't tell anybody how much they should be charging for it, but I'm saying it should be an option. Now, if you're an influencer, if you wanted to be an influencer or you know, I can understand you know, I want you to do that. But if you're just going all in on UGC creation, you're going to need to offer that as a as an option because it's just most brands and agency that's just what they want, right? Because they don't and it's not because they want to use it forever. It's because they don't have they don't have the capacity or the time to be tracking, you know, when this ad usage ended and they got it. No one wants to do that. Nobody wants to do that. That's just such a hassle. You know, so so that's the biggest thing with usage rights and perpetuity. It's not because they want to use your face and so many different things and so many different ways and make so ring out all the money they can for that one aggregated. It's because they don't have the time or the energy to dedicate to trying to exactly exactly. Yeah. Most people do you think so like this is what I've seen a lot of people this is what I do honestly is like whenever people ask for perpetual I just so let's let's say I charge $300 for a 30 second video, right? And they're like we need a perpetual I just like say okay, it's my rate again. Like is that crazy? Hi, like everyone's been saying yes to me. I mean, that's fine. Maybe I need to charge more. So I'm like yeah, that's fine. So it's like 300. So if my video let's say let's say I'm charging like $300 for 30 seconds just to make the math easy. And then they want to use my purpose then they want to use it in perpetuity. Then I just charge an additional $300 and say yeah, just my original rate again. And then that's yeah, yeah, yeah, for perpetual. Yeah, I'd say the range that I've seen for perpetual usage rights is from like 50% to like 150%. So you're doing 100% which yeah, and I would I would definitely say as a like as a creator with your experience totally, you know, now it's it's like a if it's a newer creator like I I'm very fluid. I'm very open about how fluid I am with my rates. If it's a project where I got to go I got a drive to a coffee shop. I got a drive in store. I got to film all these different places. My rates going to be different. Where if it's just a skincare brand where I could just sit in my bathroom and like you know, film it there. Right. So it's going to be my rates are very fluid and same with use of dryson perpetuity like if it's for like a you know, if it's a dr concept direct response, so it's like over a minute or something versus like a video that's you know, maybe it's 22nd very organic simple little TikTok style video. My usage rights are going to be different. I want to I make it a very very fluid. Yeah. And I don't think everybody has to do that. It can but it works better for me because now I've been doing it for so long. I know how much certain things are going to how much effort certain things are going to take. And I kind of found a way to quantify my effort and energy. So yeah. I also think something important. You're like someone with your experience, saying talking to me. I tell all my new creators like, dude, I gave out the world and I was first starting. I was just grateful. People were even talking to me. So I was like, yeah, you hear yeah, a hundred bucks with perpetual rights. I get three extra hooks. I don't get because I was trying to get like you're a new person in this industry and you're trying to like you should just be not saying you should be grateful, but like you should be grateful. Every opportunity you get because there's thousands of creators out there. They could be selecting and they're giving you a chance to get paid training on the job, which is very rare these days. And so I'm like, dude, I don't I mean, I would say for my first probably hundred projects. I didn't even touch uses rights. I never mentioned it. If someone mentioned it is this perpetual. Yeah. Cool. Have it. Don't care. Because I was just trying to get I'm just trying to get reps. Yeah. I mean, I think it was I was maybe like a month. They're still into UGC before I even really started caring about usage rights. I mean, I think like when I got that first figure figure deal with Amazon, they were like, oh, for this many usage rights. I was like, I don't know that. Okay. You know, I was like, cool. I was like, you're going to stop using it. I was like, why? For a second, I was like, why would you put a cap on that? Yeah. Yeah. Like, okay. Yeah. And I think and it's like you don't have leverage when you start out. And you know, when you got to look at UGC creation to as a business, right? And in business, you either have leverage or you don't, you build leverage in life, you just you want leverage. And when you start out, you don't have it, right? And so as you build, as you get more deals and you build your skills and stuff, you'll gain that and you'll start to have more points. You can negotiate on, right? But at first, just get that experience and get paid for that experience, right? And like, when I think about it, I was I was having a ball getting free products. Yeah. You know, I was like, oh my gosh, I never have to pay for yoga where I'm getting all these products. This is great. And I was just doing it for that. And now I think I'm out of place where you know, like one video for 1500. And I'm like, you know, that'll do. Like what would you go? There's all whole journey for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you there's a whole journey for that. You got to you can just look at us and be like, oh, they're they're getting this much for one video. Did it? I mean, this that and the other. I started out exchange based. Yeah. Just a change, right? So you know, you got to you got to realize where you're at. Be realistic with yourself. You got to be realistic with yourself, but where you're at. Well, I like that and not comparing yourself to other creators because you never know a how long someone's been doing that. And also people lie on social media guys like people are this is where you're you're in. People are doing UGC ads for themselves, you know, like like saying, like trying to hook you with like, I made $1,200 for a 42nd video. And you're like, okay, did you do that? Actually, like you never know like how long someone's been doing it. So you got to look at everything with a grain of salt, especially with how many like, you know, coaches, I guess, so I hate that term so much. I will talk about this. Like I talk about this all the time too is the amount of like new accounts like this person will DM me and they got maybe like 20 followers or first post was like a week ago in their bio already says UGC coach mentor and I got a link in bio. I'm like, for what you're asking me at what UGC is and you got to know you got a course on like what you got to watch out for that stuff. You got to and even now, yes, I do like, I think I prefer to maybe say like mentoring because coaching has gotten so now there are some there are some valid coaches out there, right? And they're good and they are actually doing good really teaching people and providing value. But it's just it's attracted so many scammers, which sucks. But yeah, really do your research if you're going to take any advice from someone, even if you're just scrolling and you you hear a video that you like, yeah, they're telling you should you should be charging this much. You should be making this much your work that that and the other goes go check them out before you take their word for it. You know, yeah, so even and even then still look at yourself like everything is fluid. Yeah, everything's fluid. I think and it's hard to like, oh, aside from the rates, it's hard to get on social media and not compare yourself to other creators, other mentors, other whatever because it's like everybody's in a different spot and you don't know the full story. So like be careful what you are taking advice from right away, right? And I'll test it, right? That's my biggest advice everybody's like to test it. Like if you charge $75 for your first video and people think it's too high, then go to 50 and then test it. See how many of who would they take that, right? And then like I think like, I don't know, everyone's different, right? Everyone's a different age. Everyone's a different look. Everyone has a different on, you know, on camera presence. Like you're going to get paid differently based on your skillset and just find your find your nice little pocket and just stay there, right? Because I feel like that's if you can find what's comfortable for you and find what you're good at. Like I tell people all the time, I'm in Utah. I'm not an outdoorsy dude. I'm like going outside the guy, right? I like to like go and then do like maybe like a fire and then like get back to my house. But I get a lot of outdoor products and I didn't I didn't want that to happen. That's just going to happen because I took some really cool beer all up in the mountains with like a couple products and now everyone thinks that I do that like it and that's just something that's like, okay, that's something that found me and I do that a lot now. But I feel like you won't know and you won't know that those things. You won't know what's like you're good at and tell you just start doing reps and getting your reps and figuring out what industries kind of attract, you know, you attract and things like that. Yeah, testing is everything. I mean, I'm still testing on my own socials and you know, and I'm just now building an actual solid strategy for years. I was just like, I was just posting, you know, I didn't have like a solid for a while. I didn't have like a solid strategy for getting engagement and stuff like that. Now I've always had a strategy for attracting brands because that's how like they found me when I had like, you know, less than 2,000 followers and stuff. There is a strategy for that. But when it comes to like if you're just trying to build like your community or get engagement on socials and stuff, just test. Same with ads. That's another thing I've learned as a creative strategist. You have to test. Yeah. And you know, I think becoming a creative strategist too, we're getting into creative strategy has made me a lot less fearful of testing. Right? Because that's how you learn, you know, and that's another reason too. Like I got my vouchers, your grand biology. I was on a research team in college. Like I love research, right? And so testing kind of makes me feel like I'm gathering, I am I'm gathering that data and I'm testing out hypotheses and stuff like that. So like treat it like it makes experiment don't take it like take it seriously, but don't don't take it personally Treat it like an experiment, right? Where's case scenario you learn something? Yeah, you're not marrying to those con especially a video flops. It's like who cares? Move on to the next thing try it out, right? You're not gonna know what's gonna work Well, I super appreciate you, Olivia one last question for you is what's your number one piece of advice for people working with for creators New or experienced working with agencies now that you're on the brand side. You're on the agency side I would say a Clear communication consistent communication be available. You want to be there go to be available make yourself available I would say also quick turnaround on revisions That's a key that makes me want to come back for more quick turnaround on revisions ask questions about the campaign Don't be afraid to ask questions the more questions you ask them or I realize that I can see that you're actually interested curious about it, right have false send follow-ups for performance. That's how you get numbers if you can get numbers Get them, right? But you're not gonna get them if you don't ask So send follow-ups ask about performance because then you can learn what worked and what didn't and apply that in your own Concepts, right? And then the more you get higher performing ads for brains, the more they're gonna want to come back to you, okay? In your portfolio have face to cam concepts, okay? Have some that show off that you can get some good be real short But I want to see your face. I want to see how you speak to the camera. Okay. Have several of those in there and be present on socials I'm not gonna be able to find you if you're not present on socials and be consistent You don't have to be an influencer, but be consistent and be mindful what you post don't post, you know You know crap equality stuff because I'm gonna see that too and be like you know so so be consistent be easy to communicate with holding on your craft and um just remember when you're in negotiations and communication with brands and stuff like that There are people on the other side of that, right? So be willing to work with them the more you're willing to work with them And they see that you're easy to work with they're gonna want to come back for more because we deal with a lot of people who Who would just give us a hard time, right? So yeah, I would say those would be my main points there What when you're searching for creators you say be present on socials are you Instagram or tech talk like which ones more popular for you searching? So I was easier to search like from like it's easier for my preference searching people Is easier, but I get way more in balance on Instagram Same yeah, yeah, so I would say I get a lot of info from TikTok for ads So I'll come I might come across you like that, but I will say like if I come across a creator I'm not gonna look at their TikTok account for example I'm gonna look at their Instagram because usually people post higher quality videos on Instagram Yeah TikTok is a little bit more like they have it has more through yeah It has more throwaway videos that are just like I thought about this so I made a video about it But as a creator like I always ask where people are finding me and it's both Instagram and and TikTok They're finding me on both so be just repurpose, you know Now change the caption change things a little bit up TikTok's a little bit different, right? You can it is a little bit different But if you are a if you're strapped for time, you know, and you just want to know like I only have time to present on one platform Just repurpose you post it on Instagram or you post it on TikTok save it was on Instagram. Yeah, you know, there's literally an app call the repurpose.io That will do that for you There you go. I say both I say both and don't be afraid of casting platforms because like I say I use I've been using backstage for a year now High-ranked creators. I need to get on it. I've been telling my my communities on it and like everyone that everyone that gets on It's like a four jobs. I'm like damn. I need to get on myself. I don't know. I don't know So hammered, but I think I'd do anything at all. Yeah, I mean because I actually so I did some modeling in acting when I was younger and stuff And I knew it through that and so yes There is acting, gagging stuff on there, but they're now people are realizing that they're also using actors for UGC too so they're just putting those you know casting calls on there There's casting networks but casting network is a little is a little bit older platform I prefer backstage. So if you're gonna get on a you know a similar platform to that then you know backstage But I have never gone any on any of those platforms myself for UGC and have gotten all in balance for socials Instagram take talk people rave about Twitter. I'm not on it. I've never been on it or X Too many platforms that's It's like you can it's like there's two I'm on X but I never post on there I know and I know there's some people that like they find like that's their lane only which I think yeah If there's anything said here you guys there's literally a million different ways to find UGC jobs Like if you're not getting a UGC jobs, you're just not trying hard enough in my opinion and to be found like I haven't pitched in over a year And I've been consistently getting deals so like you just got to set up a foundation on those to where you're easy to find And then you won't have to scout for them as much. You want to pitch 24/7. Yeah, I love that. I love that Perfect lead in for something you were telling me before we started before we hit record You have a guide called the brand magnet guide which is sweet So I'm gonna link that in the show notes you guys go check it out from someone who's been on the brand side who's currently on the brand side and on the agency side Um, go check it out. I'll link into the show notes. I think that's something that I don't offer anything like that I'm actually probably gonna go pick it up myself. So Love it any last words of wisdom Olivia. I super appreciate you hopping on uh, this has been super informal for me Yeah, it was great chatting with you. I just say you know consistency is gonna win over and everything You know if you just keep doing it It doesn't matter if you're the best Like you're gonna win over the people who quit and a lot more people quit than actually stick with it Really not as much competition as you think there is if you stay consistent So I say that wouldn't be my biggest think away now love it cool and not informal informative I just said I'm like that's not the right word It's a gas been informal too, right? I like that too. Yeah. I'll say both. I'll take both Oh, I'm gonna link your socials as well in the show notes you guys check check them out with that brand magnet guide And yeah, I'm sure we'll run into each other at some maybe at event sometimes check come out So we're doing an event march in parks to the Utah If you're a skier I know you're floored so you might not like that white stuff But if you want us no more risky march 14th UGC creator connect were we're actually gonna try to have agencies There's maybe I'll connect to do on that and see if there's anyone you're working on to come out and be an exhibitor So yeah, let's definitely connect on that for sure get some get some face time with creators, right? Then you can really you can like put a tripod up there and like all right Give me your best script right in person. That's not pressure. Yeah Alive Alive screen test. That's actually I would love that. I would love that Okay, we'll connect after this awesome. I appreciate you Olivia Thank you guys for listening as always go subscribe like share this with your other creator friends Any education is good education in this space and you got to keep growing and learning so Anyway, it's pretty sure we'll chat we'll chat with you another time Olivia. Thank you Sounds good. Thank you guys so much. All right. That's it If you got something out of this hit subscribe catch another episode or share it with a creator friend who needs to hear it and Grab my free 10 steps to becoming a UGC creator guide the link is below. Thanks for hanging out. I'll catch you next week keep creating