Creative Lives: New York Magazine's Jody Quon on being prepared and precise

[Music] Hello and welcome to Creative Lives. This is the podcast that's brought to you by Electron Progress. Well, we get to know inspiring creatives. We asked them how they got to where they are today. And we get them to share their wisdom for those that are just starting out. This week on the podcast, we meet Jodie Kwan, the Photography Director of New York Magazine. My name is Jodie Kwan, and I'm the Photography Director at New York Magazine. Since joining New York Magazine in 2004, Jodie has led its team of photo editors. And is the brains behind some of its most ambitious covers? I am mainly responsible for the photography that's in the magazine, as well as some of the work that's online. I have a team of five photo editors in print, as well as a team of another five on the web. So I work very closely with the editor-in-chief of the magazine with the respective editors, as well as the design team and photo team. A believer that photography is just as crucial to a story as the words. Jodie's role involves a great deal of creativity, lateral thinking and exacting organisation. One week, she can be convincing artistic Jerry Salts to dress up as Frida Carlo, or sculpting a cow out of ground beef for a feature on burgers to directing sensitive portraits of school shooting survivors. Jodie tells us more about her current role, talks about the importance of work ethic, and shares her tips on how photographers can best use Instagram. First, Jodie starts by giving us an insight into a typical working day at New York Magazine and some of the essential skills are needed to keep things running smoothly. A typical day for me could be a Tuesday. A Tuesday is an interesting day because it's a day that I host the photo meeting. The photo meeting is a meeting that we host once every two weeks. We're up by weekly now, so what I do is I gather all the top editors in the room, also the whole design team, the photo team, when I project the results of the various photo shoots and gatherings of photography for the stories that are coming up in the magazine. It's a great way for all the editors to get a feel for how their story is playing out visually, as well as for the editor-in-chief to see how an issue might be coming together. Another thing I'll be doing is I'll be preparing for that photo meeting all day. Each photo editor will be putting their stories together. We'll be checking our lists. I'm fielding phone calls from various people that I've left messages for the day before. I'm editing pictures. We're looking for new pictures. I'm making other phone calls and also starting to check on preliminary designs for some of the stories we're doing. What's very important is to be very nimble. That's probably one of the most important factors in what I do. One to be nimble, but two to be very, very organized. In order to be nimble, you have to be organized. One of the things that I talk to my photo editors about from the onset, from the get-go, is that they must be organized. We have many systems in the photo department, which are integral to having a smooth workflow. I'm a firm believer in having a certain infrastructure in place and that you have to adhere to that infrastructure just so that when we have to be very nimble and when we have to react quickly and move quickly, we can do that because we've built in that infrastructure up front. So that's a critical point that I have so long to my team that they have to play into. Otherwise, it just doesn't work. A testament to this are the makings behind one of the magazine's most iconic covers. In 2012, keeping a cool head when Hurricane Sandy had devastated much of New York, Jodie sent a photographer up in a helicopter to secure an aerial shot of low-amant hadn't plunged into darkness. She tells us more. We knew that we wanted a helicopter picture. We knew we needed something in the air. So who's around that would be able to take this picture? So you have to think quickly, calling a photographer that you would normally call not available. He happens to be in South America, called photographer number two that you think might be around. In the small chance, he might be around because you know that he travels around the world all the time and he's often in New York, also often in other parts of the world, but maybe he's here. He's here. And on the part of the photographer, he was so organized because in anticipation of the hurricane, he knew that it would potentially compromise all the standard conveniences of Quattitian life in New York, so he knew that he needed to take out thousands of dollars in cash at the bank before the storm. He knew that he should probably reserve a rental car at the airport in case he needed some wheels to get out of town. Those two things were actually critical in us making our historic cover because he needed cash to pay for the helicopter that would take him up in the air as really as a favor, frankly, because all the heliports were closed. And two, because he had rented that car, he was able to get himself out to Long Island to the easternmost tip of Long Island where the helicopter was located in order for him to get up in the air. So organization and being nimble is very important. An early love of fashion led Jody to study art and fashion at the Rhode Island School of Design. But it was landing a job at Cult Label Commodagos on soon after that, which proved to be the ultimate learning experience. It was here that Jody learnt the importance of having a meticulous attention to detail and clear communication. When I was growing up, I loved clothes. I magazine were a huge part of my growing up. My parents subscribed to many magazines and every week we were getting magazines in the mail, time magazine, sports illustrated golf magazine. My parents are avid golfers. But also the newspaper arrived twice a day, so we would get a morning newspaper and an evening newspaper. And then we would get the Sunday New York Times, even though we lived in Montreal, which is where I'm from. And in there you had the magazine, you had Bill Cunningham, who was taking pictures of New Yorkers on the street. And I would buy fashion magazines whenever I could afford them. I lived in a small suburb outside of Montreal and magazines and newspapers were an escape for me. I learned so much. So part of my dream was to be a fashion designer. And I ended up going to art school to study fashion design. I went to Rhode Island School of Design. But then when I graduated, I did various stash in Paris. And in that year upon graduating living in Paris, I realized that I came to a conclusion that I would never be as good a designer as the designers that I really respected. I didn't want to be a designer that was copying other people's designs. I was really interested in having a guard design. And I just sort of realized that I couldn't be Raikawa Kubo, or a Yo-Jee-A-Memoto, or Jean-Paul Goethe-A, or even Eve-Sign Laurent. Like I just didn't think I could be that creative genius in the world of fashion. So what I did was I shifted gears. And I thought, well, if I can't be a designer, maybe I can work for something close to design. And then I stumbled upon Barney's New York as an office in Paris. I was on my bicycle one day, road past their offices, and I thought, oh, and they had a little sign in the window that they said they had a job available. And I spoke both English and French fluently, so they needed an administrative assistant for the office. It was their buying office for their New York stores. So I started working there. And then through that, I met this woman, Mary and Greenberg, who was doing the PR for Komnegelsson. So she hired me for that. And then I moved to New York for a Marion, and I did press for Komnegelsson for five years. And what I learned was that while school teaches you so much, it's the real world that teaches you so much more. And in the School of Mary and Greenberg, while doing work for Komnegelsson, the Japanese are very exact. Every detail has to be considered. And communication is so important. And then Mary and taught me how to send a fax to Tokyo, how you had to address it, how you had to be so detailed in its subject matter. Because of the time change, there was no time to speak on the phone. It's a 12-hour difference. So that fax of communication had to be so crystal clear. She taught me how to talk to people on the phone. don't do when you're a self-absorbed student in college in art school, you could care less how you speak to people on the phone. So this was really important because we're calling important people. So important people command respect and you need to project that kind of respect on the phone. So I learned that. Those values that she ingrained in me while I was pulling my hair out at the time, it's what brought me forward. It is what got me all the other jobs. And then I, for coming out soon, what I did was I did a lot of research for them, researching artists, researching photography because they also did a magazine called Sixth. They did exhibitions in their Tokyo stores and in their Paris stores and also at the time in their New York stores. So they were always looking for artists to collaborate with. They were always looking for new photographers. They were always looking for just inspiration everywhere. And so my job was to spend weeks researching this, researching that and then preparing these elaborate packages to send to Tokyo for the designer. And then after about five years I was done. I thought maybe I should change and I really, at that point, wanted to go back to fashion but fashion history. So I wanted to work at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And this is the thing that I think is very important for students to understand or when you're young and you're starting your career. Your career path isn't going to be a straight line. It's like a tree. It's going to take twists and turns and one limb will turn into a branch and that will branch into something else and you're never going to be able to anticipate where those directions are going to take you. But you just have to follow your heart. So then I wanted to do fashion history. I wanted to work at the Met. I knew the people at the Met, the curators. And they very nicely said to me that in order to work at the costume institute at the Met, you need a master's. They said, "But let's keep you in mind. We know people." And sure enough, they were at a dinner one evening with the then fashion director of the New York Times magazine who was then looking for a photo researcher to help her work on the 50th anniversary issue of the fashions of the times. So the other important thing I will say is that it's important to build relationships with everybody that you encounter, never burn bridges and always be on your best behavior and show interest and always show that you're shiniest side because people remember that. Jody would go on to work at the New York Times magazine, where her eyes were opened to the potential of picture editing as a job. She would state the magazine for 11 years before leaving in 2004. That's what happened. These curators at the Met were the ones that thought of me to recommend to Carrie Donovan, this fashion director. So I worked for her for six months. You know, I was trepidacious to take that job from her because while I really wanted to work for her, I was nervous about taking a job that would only be for six months. I wanted to be an adult, I wanted to be responsible and I accepted the job, but then I rejected it. And it was my father that said to me, "Take that job. It's the New York Times." And I said, "But what happens to me in six months?" He said, "Don't worry about six months. Take the job. Take it now. It's the New York Times. You've always respected Carrie Donovan. You have an opportunity to work with her for six months. Do it. Let life take over." So we did that. And then what happened was I met the photography director, Kathy Ryan. And Carrie said to me, "When I started, okay, these are your marching orders. You're going to research this, this, this, and this." And then every week, you're going to meet with Kathy Ryan, who is the best photo editor in the world. And you're going to do a pre-screen with her. And then I will look at what Kathy has edited from your work and will go from there. So I knew I had these one hour sessions with Kathy every Friday at 3 p.m. And I knew that she didn't have time for me. Because she's working on a weekly magazine. She's working on her immediate stories that are shipping and closing and that she has just signed right away. She's not even thinking about an issue that's six months away. I knew that I need to contextualize the work. And I knew that I had to have it uber organized so that she could snap out of whatever it was that she was doing at 259 and snap into easily what I was working on at 3 p.m. And so she loved our meetings as well. Because she loved how I organized things and we just had a very good rapport. And she would give me feedback. I followed her feedback. And the next meeting I would show her work based on what she asked for. I would also perfect my systems of organization for her. And then by the end of those six months, she asked me to work for her as a junior photo editor at the New York Times magazine. And when she offered me that job, I declined. I said, I would love to work for you, but I have no experience at all. And what you do, I want you to understand upfront that my background is fashion. I have done a little bit of fashion photo research. I have an art background, but I have no background in photojournalism. I have no idea who any of the great photojournalists are aside from Sebastio Salgado, James Noctue, maybe Mary Ellen Mark, but I really don't know anybody. And she said to me, "Jody, we've been working together for the last six months on this special issue. I've loved how we've worked together. Your sense of organization. You have a good eye. Even though we haven't tested your eye on photojournalism or anything like that, I can see that you have a good eye and you have a very good work ethic. And that's what I want on my team. I want somebody with a good work ethic and who organizes, who knows how to speak to people, who knows how to get things done. Those are the qualities that everybody should know that they need to possess in order to do anything, whether you want to be in photography, whether you want to be an artist, whether you want to be a business person, whether you want to be a tech person, whatever it is you want to do. You have to harness those basic core values and those values will set you far. And I believe that that's what happened to me. And so I said to Kathy, I said, "Okay, fine, I'll happily come work for you. But on the condition, let's make a deal. Let's work together for six months. And if in six months you're unhappy or I'm unhappy or we're both unhappy, we can shake hands and walk away from each other." And those six months turned into 11 years. So I rose from being like the most junior photo editor on the team to end up being her number two, which I loved. And I would have stayed there for the rest of my life, frankly. But again, as life would have it, the editor of the New York Times magazine, Adam Moss, was leaving because he was offered a position at New York magazine to take over the magazine and he wanted to go. And he asked me to join him as the photo director. And I was very flattered and very tickled. And I honestly didn't even think he knew my work really because I was mostly working in the service of the magazine. And certainly in the service of Kathy, as she was the photo director, I was always taking her cues. But he said, "I know who you are. I've been working with you for 11 years and I would love you to come to New York with me." And that was great because one of the things that I always felt while working at the New York Times magazine was, "I loved my job so much." But I would have these conversations with myself that I questioned how passionate was I truly about my job. And I questioned myself because I would watch my boss, Kathy, and I would watch her in awe as she would speak with photographers, as she would explain an idea as she would edit photography, as she would get excited about just the making of the magazine. I thought to myself, "Well, my, while I love my job, I don't love it as much as she does." And I wanted to love it as much as she did. It bothered me that as much as I loved doing what I did, why didn't I feel like that? And what I realized when I started working for Adam at New York as the photo director is that once I became the photo director and once a day. I knew that the buck stopped with me. I could see that fire burning within me. And that's when my passion started to blossom. So I'm so grateful to Kathy, of course, but also to Adam, who could see that I could potentially rise to that level. And I'll tell you, I could have never predicted that that's the path that my professional life would take. But I'm so grateful it did. Because even to this day, that was back in 2004 that I started at New York Magazine. We're now in 2019. I love what I do. And I don't do it for the money. I do it for intellectual stimulation. And I also do it as a responsible citizen, because I believe that working in journalism, it's such a great privilege that we're given to package these stories, to share these stories with readers, because they're important stories. And so my little part, which is the photographic end of that storytelling, can make a little bit of a difference. And so I'm just thrilled to be part of that larger operation. It might be surprising to hear that in Poster Syndrome, plays a part in Jody's everyday thinking. But she explains why it's something that she's since come to embrace. One of the things about working at a magazine like New York is that we cover so many different subject matters. The material is so diverse. And I work with such smart editors. And there's so much that I don't know. So one of the things, I guess, is I've embraced this in Poster Syndrome. Because I think that with age and with maturity, I think one of the most important things that I've come to realize is knowing what I don't know, or realizing within yourself that you can't possibly know everything, is a very important quality to have. Because it allows you to open up and to learn from others around you. I learn so much from everybody around me. And I know that I can't do it myself. And I do it with my team. I do it with my fellow photo editors. I can't think of every photographer. I've not been to every gallery show. I've not seen this. I've not seen that. I can't see everything. So every photo editor that works with me, they all have a set of eyes. And they can all say, oh, I've seen this. And I'll be like, wow, that's really great. So to be open to learning from people around you is essential. In her current role at New York Magazine, Jodie frequently finds in commissions photographers for Instagram. She has some essential advice for how emerging creatives can make the most of the platform. Instagram has become an invaluable tool for me and for my team in finding great talent. Really more than anything, it is the go-to rabbit hole. I will call it that I use to find new artists across the globe. So I cannot encourage people enough to post their strongest work on Instagram. Don't post what you don't feel proud of. Post your strongest work, the work that your heart is reflected in and keep it pure. And people will find you. You can also direct message all the people that you want to follow or all the people that you want to get in touch with, like, people direct message me on Instagram all the time. When I say the rabbit hole, once I'm following somebody, that person is following somebody else, and that person's following somebody. There's so many tangents, as you know. So I just think, get yourself on Instagram so that we can find you because we will. Finally, Jodie describes why staying true to yourself as a creative is vital to carving out the right career path for you. One of the things I think is most important for people to remember when they're starting out is you have to be true to yourself. Keep to purity because you'll never be happy if you don't listen to your heart. I feel like I've had the luxury to do that, also because I was raised by my parents who, when I wanted to go to art school, they'd be like, sure. Other parents would be like, oh, I don't know if you can make a career out of that. I don't think it's not so practical. But they've always imparted the message to us that the world is our oyster, but that you have to be pure. You have to listen to your heart. What is it that moves you? Listen to that and go from there. So I think it's important for people to remember that they have to listen to their heart. And by listening to your heart, it doesn't mean that you should irresponsible and say, well, I only want to be a painter like Lucien Freud. And therefore, I will not paint if I can't paint like him. It's not that. It's that you have to then be creative about how close can you get to where your heart wants to be. So therefore, you want to align yourself with institutions, with people that think like you, or that make a product that you respect. You have to respect the people you work with, and the thing that you're driving towards. Otherwise, you can't build on your own intellectual stimulation. You have to be genuinely interested. And that was what happened with me was that in all the little building blocks, I was always super genuinely interested in every venue, in every organization. And then who knows what's in store for me in the future, but you can bet that it will be in an arena that I'm genuinely interested in. The Creative Lies Podcast is brought to you by Lettreme Progress, where a platform that's helping emerging talent to grow fulfilling creative careers. I'm Marianne Hanoon. Our guest this week was Jodie Kwon, recorded at the Magculture Conference in London. Our editor is Iver Manley with production support from Laura Snowd. Also a bit of news from Lettreme Progress this week, we have launched our all new opportunities board. It's a centralized hub for entry-level opportunities, where you can find everything from junior job postings to learning schemes and internships across the UK. You can check it out at opportunitiesboard.lectriumprogress.com. Electrium Progress is of course most possible with the support of our brand partners. They include GF Smith, Google, Colophone Foundry, GIFGaff, and the Paul Smith Foundation. You can find out more at electrimprogress.com. And we also love hearing from you, so please do get in touch or leave us a rating. Till then, we'll see you next week. [BLANK_AUDIO]