Creative Director & Founder - Matt Campion

0:03 Speaker 1 Welcome back to grit this week. We're talking with one of my favorite people in the digital content and TV space, creative director, and founder of spirit Studio. Matt, Kemp, Ian in this episode, we talked about how to develop format ideas, grow an audience and navigate the ever-changing landscape of the content creation space. 0:22 It was a fascinating discussion covering lots of areas with spirit and fun. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Okay, we're going to jump over to the UK to talk to creative director. To Matt Campion of spirit Studios. How are you, Matt. 0:37 Speaker 2 I'm very well. Thanks mate. How are 0:38 Speaker 1 ya? And lovely. It's lovely to catch over here. It's been a while since we saw each other face-to-face. 0:43 Speaker 2 Yeah, there's been a pandemic in between. I know you think it is. You think I saw you just before the pandemic and it, but all that, that's going to flip. Isn't it sort of the last three years? 0:53 Speaker 1 Well, it's weird, isn't it? I like two years of disappeared that I can't account for, I think. Oh, Matt was out here last 1:00 Speaker 2 year. That's exactly, that's exactly the way I I think it's the fact that we've sort of yeah, I almost forget that I've been working at home even though we're doing that right now and the suppose it's as far as one of the things that has happened is that things have sped up. 1:16 I use the technology so I these things we wouldn't have we wouldn't have done this. If we wouldn't have done this before hand, but now like it's so much easier to meet people and to and to not feel. I feel like whenever I used to be asked to do a zoom meeting or Skype, which was the original Zoom. 1:32 The oh, Yeah. And I used to hate them in it and it's feel like we are they I don't really want to comment you a call because you did a conference call. Yeah, the idea of putting ourselves and seeing ourselves was sort of really odd, but now we're so used to it that actually I think it's in terms of it's so much better to be able to have to communicate the obviously 1:54 Speaker 1 someone did you find yourself but particularly when you're dealing with like so many meetings in your kind of work, Or is it more efficient for you? And do you find like the meetings better rather than just being like a boozy thing or a lunch thing? Do you find it a bit more precise or is that 2:12 Speaker 2 a bad thing? This is both as in when things went into lockdown, we as a business really took advantage of the fact that you could do way more meetings in a day that you would normally do because like running a business that's based in London to Brighton. 2:30 You'd spend So much time traveling on achieved in between meetings that really, you don't need, you can only do say one commission meeting in a day or two Max. You do one in the morning, one in the afternoon, or it'll be a lunch thing. 2:47 And then and then the pandemic happened, and then you could just be like bouncing or you could bouncing in some things all day long. And actually, I think that pace that everybody should have a frenzied Pace. That everybody went into really helped us with that with our business. It really helps it was a game. 3:03 The a lot of a lot of in this struggle, we actually really thrived under that. And we even doubled a turnover in the first year of look down, but you can't be alone. Bunch of the commissioner where you can, where you can together properly. 3:18 Talk things through this communicating in real life. Has a completely different, isn't it? You know, you can, you've got you can actually sort of you can see each of the property where there's still this, this is still a barrier like, you know, like seeing Each other on a video call instead of it's still a barrier, you can still hide behind, you've got your height, you can hide behind the lens, you don't have to give everything, we're in real life, You Can't Hide. 3:43 Speaker 1 And I think it's easier when you've met the person in real life. It's actually a bit more stilted when it's the first time you've met someone as well. 3:51 Speaker 2 Definitely in fact I have been working on a drama for a major broadcast that even UK for just over a year which is likely to shoot next year. So it As you how long it takes. And we've been through multiple meetings and spent months on Bible and now going to script and I'm only meeting with commissioner for the first time in real life, next week which and yet I feel like I know her well, and that's like a really hard thing because, I mean, you meet in your life, it's to begin with a 3D version of a 2d person is very different Doreen. 4:26 Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, it's an it's a weird way to do 4:29 Speaker 2 business. Also, like the amount of people that are on Honestly the amount of people that I've met in real life, who are literally two foot taller than I think they are from 4:38 Speaker 1 Zoom. Yeah, of course. Well we should know as video makers that the way the camera lies but I suppose it is weird when you meet people in life. It's the same woman you meet actors. Yeah, I'm always throwing back. 4:51 Speaker 2 That's a tend to be small ya 4:53 Speaker 1 around. So for the context of the audience do you want to just give us a little bit of overview of what Spirit Studios is and what? Role is within speed and how you set it up etcetera. 5:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. So we we started the business 10 or so years ago with a vision to create a business that could that really understood the digital world of content and could be able to use you know, all of that technology from social media to digital video to slightly different production processes, suppose in a sense to our advantage too. 5:32 To not only make our own TV Originals, dramas films, whatever, but be able to sort of Market them as well. And also make revenues you know in the digital world which would bring us income and pay for our own overheads. Whilst we sleep versus always being relying on a commission. 5:51 Right? So so spiritually is the first thing I should say is why we exist because I think that's the most important asset or set of values. We create content with Spirit. That's what we're about. We always want to make content that Most people's lives for the better and we're so I suppose what we try and do is create content with hidden purpose. 6:10 And I know that sounds like, I'm sure, lots of people are sort of the work purpose gets bandied around a lot these days, but if you look back at the history of spirit, we when we run a mental health movement, which is about penetrating, pop culture to talk about mental health, rather than being sort of Charity LED or clinical called I am whole and I am holistic, Nick, we founded with Jordan Stevens who is 1/2 of Rizzle Kicks and an actor and writer and we found that in 2016. 6:41 So you know what, a lot of people these days sort of say they want to do stuff with purpose or you know, we I really you know, we've been walking the talk properly for a long time rather than just saying it and we've done some incredible things there with a time of. So with that in mind, everything we do has to have a purpose to sort of, to To humans lives. 7:04 You only get one life. So I can why can't we create content and makes you think a little bit and might send you away wanting to make the world a little bit better. And that doesn't mean you have to be boring or worthy because we're certainly not, we're sort of quite Funk and rock and roll. We make comedy and music shows and dramas and, and all that kind of stuff. 7:21 So it's, I really believe you can do it through having a lot of fun. But then also getting people to think. So, then the studio model that we have is, we have a team Studio One, One is a TV Originals Studio, which comprises of creative development, actually create a development team sits across the whole business. 7:40 But in that, in that studio, we make comedy make drama, we make sort of I suppose factual fact end and that's anything from a short form original with a broadcast up to you know like a feature length or or a drama series. 7:56 And we also to say that Spirit we make anything from 15 seconds to a feature as long as we're always sticking true to our values. Which I just talked about and also understanding the audience in the platform where the content is going to be, which I think is an advantage, we have because we've been in the digital world for so long now, then you're okay to make it, you know, I don't think we need to be, we don't need to be genre defined. 8:19 In fact, we've put on concerts a big pop concerts and we've we've put on tours Live tours with that podcast and stuff so I don't think necessarily, you know, I think we could put on a theater play. It's like Like it's, you know, what we do, doesn't really matter. 8:35 It's why we do it that account. So the Studio's. Yes. So in that studio, and in that studio, we've got shows like in the last couple of years we've had common events that we miserably for UK TV. Dave, it's a common against living miserably is a show that was a comedy fundraiser for the campaign against living miserably, the suicide charity, but it was using stand-up comedy and comedians. 8:57 In a documentary-style chat, show talking about their mental health in about some of the struggles. They have As a way of delivering, big sort of funny laughs, but at the same time, real meaningful valuable content by Amos which was our BBC One show, which was about tackling the absurdity of racism. 9:14 We had the whole truth, which was a show for Channel 4, which looked at mental health, through the lens of music and the black community, which starred Koji, radical and shading, go and auto parts and then one allow one of our biggest show which is a returner is showing make for ITV, call the standard. 9:32 Up Sketcher much. How much purposes in the standards getting show? Although, I would say that, what it does do is it does talk about modern topics for young people, a lot for the community and also, what's so brilliant about it is that it's such a talent vehicle for that channel is. 9:50 Yeah. Every year is about 30 comedians that appear across the series and it's a great way of the channel. Being able to get new faces on TV and giving them a shot and that's something that we're super, super proud of. So that's a sort of a News Studio. Then we have a branded content studio. 10:06 So we make branded content. It's not something we actually Chase. It's all it tends to be incoming. We've got a couple of partners that we make branded content for including Channel 4. So we do make branded content and I think the reason why we do that is because actually it's quite good margin on the budget side but but also I think our digital skill set and in creating social content allows us to make authentic. 10:29 Interesting content for brands that doesn't. Feel overly sort of commercial or land-grabbing, which a lot, I think a lot of branded content can be, you know, I think it would be good at finding a good at hiding these things. Then we have something that is a really big part of the business, which is podcast studio and currently, I'm not sure how many I think we've got sort of. 10:53 I think we've been around about 14 podcasts in our Network scaling, 20, this year. And we've just recently built a multicam. Shh. Yo, with a lighting rig and a green screen and its own set of one of our pods, sort of our pots and out facial. 11:11 And in fact, an old friend of ours, Chris Holly is coming in to do a relay in a couple of weeks. Oh nice, nice. And then so we're expanding that and that does that, that that network is going up. That studio is really thriving. It's a big, big growth area in media. 11:27 But also for us and we've got we run a couple of two or three the biggest pods in the UK. So we have Parts Homo sapiens, which looks at the world from a career perspective. As a podcast, I absolutely love. We've had some incredible guests on there. That lockdown gave us. We've had like, Debbie Harry. 11:43 Yeah, who have Michael Stipe. I mean, like, some people that you would never get ordinarily in real life, but being able to do those things through through Zoom as really been brilliant. So yeah, so that that network is interesting because it's going to be it's going to fall team that sort of an engine that's that's Producing these things. 12:03 But but also we use audience development, skill set. So we have this is a thing that we would enhance right from the beginning was to have a team of people that really, really understood digital algorithms, social media and how to grow audiences. 12:20 It's what we call audience development and that Team Works across all of our digital projects. And in particular, for the podcasts, it looks at how to optimize and iterate and improve each weeks. It's show but it also looks after the building of the audiences around those properties and we have a marketing department within that that does all the social content. 12:42 And what's interesting is that it's now starting to spin out some new stuff. So like private parts has its own Snapchat show. Now, that monetizes and the team make that and the marketing, the marketing department will look at how we get into all the press and into blogs. And, you know, looks at how we can utilize the content that we make and build your audience for them. 13:00 Well, so that's our pods, then we have I'm home. Which is, I meant to whole studio that I told you about on your own and that's doing some, some, some great things that's building out content and audience. That moment, that's something that we've not been able to do before. But as of last October, we were very lucky when we managed to get channel for to invest in US channel for a stakeholder and spiritually owes. 13:20 And part of that investment is for us to be able to build these different Studios out and to scale the business safely. So the podcast you go, we were able to afford to build a studio to build a team. Great all At resource and that and that strategy the same with. I am whole, we just starting to turn it into a video content platform that it's something that we've been doing for five years. 13:41 We've been doing these incredible campaigns of reached millions billions of equal and as had lots of success on the outside, but we've never really galvanized that and built it into the community that we believe, it could be a now, that's the start of that. 13:57 But we're doing, you know, we're off to a good start. I got 60,000 on Instagram, it's starting to grow and hopefully This new video strategy with its own internal commissioning process will start to really scale that. Yeah, so that's kind of that's how that's the sort of the the sort of the model we have these Studios. 14:12 I have these different skill sets, it might sound very complicated but it's actually quite simple basically. You do these number of things and then across it. So verticals they all your verticals, but then horizontally, you have this skill set that allows you to do it. Also, the skill sets are creative development, the ideas, bit for all of us in its production. 14:32 So we have in house head of production production managers production coordinators that can run the whole thing and then the final bit is this audience development. So across all of those, even if we make a drama with our team, will still be all over. How the hell do you make this go big on digital? 14:47 So that we can get more work out of it. And I suppose that's the difference between us and a tradition in D. 14:53 Speaker 1 Well, that that's the thing. I want to talk about it because I think when training up-and-coming people or talking to up-and-coming people whenever I talk about you need to understand. You need to understand audience, develop they go oh that's for social, that's not for production and I'm saying the world is changed so I would imagine that having the ability to show a commissioner or a financier we build audiences that. 15:19 I mean, that's ultimately what people want, isn't it is audiences? 15:22 Speaker 2 What I would say is that schedule television is on its way out. It's still it's still I'd say it's got another 10-15 years, it's still doing well. They're still shows that can They're still Juggernaut shows that can absolutely become appointment to view and, and bringing big audiences, you know. 15:40 Like, we know that like big, a big drama on a weekend will do well for one of the major broadcasters. We know that a show like real Sports does well live. Obviously we know that Saturday night entertainment and some deaf still going to bring it, bringing fairly big numbers but on the whole schedule, television is rapidly dying. 15:59 And what that means is that we all watch TV through Ups, and this is not new, but sort of its, but it's a mindset that you got to get around. And if and if you, so, now, there's this whole new bunch of new Commissioners, the streamers from Disney plus, even Paramount plus is just about to launch in the UK, your peacock, Netflix, Amazon, and there will be more and more, and more. 16:22 And more than my TV, or just a nice tight, evx have been more and more than one, and the world is more hungry than ever for Content. So, the opportunity is, and the prize is a big butt. But if you are a producer that traditionally can make a long-running factual, or fact n-series that sits on a daytime, or when it on a traditional schedule for, you know, not very much money, then that's great. 16:46 But eventually, that that works going to die out and that's going to be around. So how do you survive in that modern world? And we always this was exactly the reason why we set up was because we saw it coming. We just thought it might have took it took 10 years, really for it to click in and now it's really starting to accelerate. 17:03 But he's got to be able to produce the show. We've also got to have to Market it, and the reason being is that schedule TV in the old days, was a channel to Market. So then if there were no, there's only three or four channels, people have switched those on and that was all the choice, you had. 17:19 So like basically you were competing against two or three others in that slot at that time, you didn't have to do much to Market your own show because the channels were Trail and Trail and Trail and billboards, and radio and all that these days when This so much choice and people aren't watching shows at the same time. 17:37 You've got to create that water cooler moment in a different way and social media. And that that sort of social digital marketing skill set is one way of doing it. The way we talk about is that what we do is we don't, we don't create shows, we don't create podcasts, we don't create whatever we create Brands. We quite Grant brands that we can scale whether that's a drama brand, or, you know, or a comedy brand or a podcast brand, or mental health brand, we build Brands and then off the top You know, as we scale that can that brand to be a podcast, can it also be a drama? 18:06 Can it be, you know? I am whole we've had a TV show, we've had a podcast from it, we've got all these social content that goes out on digital. You know, we're looking at dramas for I am whole. There's, you know, we've done concerts Ryan home. There's, you know, how do you, how do you create a brand that people really dear to and understanding is relatable? 18:25 And then how do you had your commercialize that and do lots of things with it? So, yeah, I think the skill sets really important that you can do all those things. But at the same time, you shouldn't also dispute. The fact that if you've got that skill set as a producer you can make a lot of money and digital. 18:40 Yeah, you know, like this we're a multimillion-pound turnover business, half of our revenues come through digital and it's growing, and growing and growing. And if you look at the fact that traditional television was where advertising Revenue predominately sat, it's now rapidly moving over. 18:59 I mean, they'll the address of the outsets revenue in podcasters, Shock to the roof moves, the digital, you know, the panda make a speed that up because we're all online lot more with communicating a lot more through through online are on our phones and will, you know? 19:14 So actually when the brands and advertisers spending more in that space, if you can create content that you can monetize before audiences that are there, then actually there's a real, there's a real opportunity and, you know, talking to friends. It's quite interesting because what we're taught we try and do a spirit more and more. 19:32 One is something that we're working. It really hard at the moment is to try and become more exposed cross-pollinated in terms of our skill sets across the Studio's so that each mysterious can can help each other but also go. What if that thing you doing over there? What if we did a podcast to go alongside that? 19:50 Or if that thing you're doing over there, could we take that podcast and turn into drama or whatever? But I've, when I talked to the digit, when I talk to my friends that are in the big digital space, the lad Bible is the brave bisons The, the Barcroft will in that cool future, they are making millions and millions and millions of pounds through, Snapchat, and podcasts, and all sorts of different digital ways of making money. 20:16 I suppose, when we set up spirit, I was a television exact, but I spent the very first 23 years, really, becoming a social media expert and then in the ropes, using my producer skills to understand analytically. 20:32 The whole thing worked because actually those if you can get it right, if you can have both those skill sets your business, both can win from each other. Because actually my social, my social media content is, is much better than a lot of people's. Because the fact that I've got my television background here, because I've got my producer, my creative background from that side, but then on the TV side, it really wins because the fact that we went, for example, the standard sketch show does about 50 million reach poet /. 21:02 Our series on social, from all the content that we create for the, for the talent show, we've got this big network of talent that star in the show. We create their clips and their sketches and we, and we reformat it all for social media, so that we're constantly re appetizing the shirt. And we do that, we just do. 21:19 That was part of what we do in terms of our production process. But you know what it what it what it has done for us is made just a sketch, show itv's, second-most after love Island which is I think you'll agree is an anomaly in startups. Get shown, is that the most popular show that 16 to 24 year-olds for ITV. 21:39 So, you know, those skill sets a complimentary, and also, I'm sorry. But like, if you stand by that, then what the hell you doing? I mean, it's just, it's obvious as it were all living in it all the 21:50 Speaker 1 time. What it's fascinates me that when I meet like, traditional Telly people, they always kind of sneer their nose. A bit social. Yeah. And then you sometimes you when you're in, In Social sphere. there's an attitude sometimes of like oh well it's just DIY and lo lo fi you know like you sometimes get this off slightly old YouTube mentality to just make the program and it's about the audience and it's when you bring those things together, There's a real interesting thing and I've always been fascinated about that by you that you brought those two things together. 22:29 And it's something that I try and teach is like have have some skill sets that you get from broadcasting or tell you some good good rules. But don't just follow the model. Take the other model from 22:44 Speaker 2 here. Definitely. You know like as a creative I get really excited I get just as excited as make I get to work on I get to work on some big Productions where I've got one working with re cameras and the light, a big lion team in a sec team and an art department and all that stuff and Steadicam and jibs and track and Dolly and all that stuff. 23:06 Right? I get to work. I get to be on set doing those. Projects with a decent budget and that's really exciting. And that's probably one of the reasons where you get into the industry because you like, oh my God, this is incredible. Bringing you creative to life at that scale is amazing. 23:21 I get equally and I'm not, I'm not lying when I say this, I get equally excited about shooting something on my own, on a GoPro and rising to the challenge of making it as creatively. Good. As the other thing, if I'm making it right for an audience, I had a meeting in a day, where, with some with some people that were Looking to create some, what they called Lo-Fi content and I was like, what does that actually mean? 23:43 You know, like because actually I understand that, you know, if I if I was to make a 30 second piece of content to advertising me on social media and I shot it on Ariel, X's with a full lighting team in the cast and Bowl. Then essentially, I'm just making a movie and putting it on the net, right? 24:01 And then that's doesn't feel inherently social, because that will that is that's just me crying a trainer points me out. We're actually if I shoot something that The art the Arts of capturing and making something a big on the Internet is understanding that audience on that platform, at that exact moment of time. 24:18 Obviously like a Will Smith slap at the Oscars, that clipped up that shot on really nice cameras at the Oscars and everything. But that is a moment in time when everyone's going to be showing the hell out of that, but then what you do is that content afterwards to then make inherent social is to you watch, you know, like you see a moment like that in time happen and you watch all of Sudden it becomes a meme and it become. 24:41 And it's, and then it's vertical and people are clipping it a different way, and people are now deep faking it and doing all sorts of stuff with it. So I just think that like, when you go to really understand why you're doing some thinking and actually, you know, like I said before, this billions of bits of content on the internet. 24:59 How do you make when someone can Scrolls partial bit, how did you grab their attention instantly and keep their attention? That's the hardest bit, you know, and it's not easy to do that all of the time. But you but you can, there are things that you can learn and, and data that you can require based on your last performance that will help teach you and get guides you towards what the audience likes and doesn't like. 25:22 And in the day, all you're doing is entertaining. Humans. You know, if you can if you can empathetically understand what their needs are on those platforms, then you, then you can create an it as really powerful and it will win. Having said that there's a a bit, I don't know if you've seen it but Dove release. 25:39 Just a campaign film, a couple of weeks ago about how toxic the internet can be. And then you realize just now how how much sort of I suppose unregulated content there is on the internet that our kids are growing up watching and it's, you know, it's dark. 25:56 Speaker 1 It's a tough one. Because when I'm talking to students, when we talk about this idea of like, how do you grab eyeballs and how do you get attention quickly, you can easily fall into the Trap of just like, Thing goes and it's then probably at maybe this is something that either media education or the industry needs to do is how do you take people into this content sphere but gives them some sense of ethical guidelines. 26:25 Like, really start to think about the content you make so we're not churning out shit. That's just selling stuff to our kids away. There's no. They were you saying about make stuff with purple. 26:35 Speaker 2 Yeah. Which you know what interesting Lee we're making a documentary at the moment called Seriously, finally, and seriously funny is a film that will be distributed across streamers around the world. And it's the quite the big question of the film is, does human, does humor still have a place in the modern world? 26:54 Where where, you know, seemingly it's getting harder and harder to joke about things without being canceled. So it's the, the film is a journey of a comedian that goes on this journey to look at the, the up, the subject, matter of cultural appropriation and see whether he has a white comedian. 27:09 Actually stand on the stage and joke about cultural appropriation in a way. That doesn't offend the communities and the history of everything that's gone before. And actually sort of in a positive way, put a spin on it that still makes it really funny. But doesn't feel like he has to go to the length of say like the Jimmy Carr. 27:25 Yes situation. Which are, you know, which funny enough, a comedian, Adam Rose always says that, you know, like he's good friends with Jimmy and he says, you know, should Jimmy be able to joke about that? Yes, he should. He's a comedian. That's his job. We live in a world of free speech. Was it a good? Good joke. No it wasn't. 27:41 It was racist jokes. Oh that's kind of you know. So he wouldn't have done it. I suppose the reason why I mention that project is because I think we're sort of with slightly obsessed with. I think we now live in a world where the audience will cancel you. So actually as much as like unless you're now an out-and-out troll mean but as a, as a as a come as a independent production company, you can't be. 28:02 So you have to have, you have to hold yourself to account, really? To make sure that everything you do is send is checked, you know. And that's what. It produces therefore and production managers. That's what they're there for is to is to have that sort of, by the time you get to that level, you're fully trained in legal compliance, all those things, and we put that process across everything we do, just to make sure that there's nothing leaves the business that could ever take us down and actually, you know, being a business that talks about creating content, you know, with hidden purpose and trying to do some good in the world. 28:36 Actually makes it harder for us. As a business because it means we ultimately have to be better than everybody else. Yeah. Because we're if we're if we're the ones saying that the world to a better place, we're going to hold ourselves to account on that. We can't just go around doing whatever but you're right. 28:51 I think I think regulation has to come into play. So it is an absolute. Well we're still 28:58 Speaker 1 well, I think it what you've got with the big kind of, let's say, social companies is they've hit the sighs. Now that of the thing that they disrupted and the thing that they Cage had broadcasting standards had editorial standards and the reason they could grow was because they didn't have to adhere to that. 29:17 Yeah but now they're the same size as what they disrupted. So they're going to have to solidify just because of the size of them and I think that's going to be difficult. Because how do you turn a social platform into a publishing platform in terms of Regulation? 29:35 Because the only reason they can exist is without that Ocean almost because they don't want to be seen as a publisher, because then they're liable, 29:42 Speaker 2 right? Well, in, I mean interest. Yeah. I mean, like, we have off condemn me for our yeah, TV. In fact, off come now you wouldn't, you wouldn't you might not believe this but but the streamers Netflix and Disney, and this year in the UK that are Guided by anything at the moment. 29:58 But I just, you know, recently, they talked about in the about the fact that off come are going to set, you know, the rules for them as well. 30:04 Speaker 1 Because I was trying to find some editorial standards that Netflix. Down for documentary recently and cannot find anything. So I'm assuming they don't have it. I mean, they must have some kind of internal 30:17 Speaker 2 standards or self-governed. I mean I suppose he will have lawyers that will stop them getting sued and that's, you know, that's the bit. Yeah, at that scale. That's the bit that stops. That's the bit that does self-govern because actually you can't put anything out. But yeah. I think the problem with the internet and the streamers, both those things that is very different to what we're used to knowing is the internet and straight. 30:38 Well the in stream is all the internet. On the internet on their they cut. That's how they serve the internet is global. And that's the difference, isn't? It is like how do you regulate but what needs to happen now is that each country needs to regulate its own? So, you know, versioning what happened around the world and that's only the same in the way that if we distribute TV show. 30:56 We have to reversion it for different territories. Yeah. It's how it's the only way to safeguard because then you look because it because you look at somewhere like Russia. Now that has managed to shut down all of its own TV networks apart from the The state-owned one and then just Pump It propaganda through that, you run the risk without having that real regulation. 31:16 You run the risk. Then you. 31:17 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. No, no definitely. And, and I suppose flipping sort of sideways slightly. Obviously, a lot of your work is reaching out to Commissioners and reaching out to be able to get your ideas finance. And I think this is an area that everybody wants to kind of know about like, what's, what's that, like, and what's the process? 31:38 Because I think A lot of people see like getting ideas made is some kind of magic thing 31:45 Speaker 2 I would I was having this conversation with somebody on Friday because the way to describe it is that imagine a very, very steep hill and I'm halfway up bit pushing. The biggest Boulder you've ever seen and I'm never going to get to the top. 32:02 That's what it's like you just have to be resilient. You have to have energy. Belief. You have to be Innovative in your approach to finding Money Getting commissions, getting financed, we are tackling a spirit. 32:21 I think we're really entrepreneurial. In terms of content, the traditional Indy was set up and then they will fund the development department. Coming up with TV show ideas and if that department does not win a commission, by the time the money runs out the business is over. 32:39 End of, that's it. What we do is go, right? How can we make money everywhere and my job right? You know, I do, I answer as I lead the sales in the business. My job is to get into all of the channels to meet the relevant Commissioners that the buyers, the ones that decision makers to build relationships. 33:00 It's really important, and then, and that's, and I would say it's taken, you know, we're ten years old now, it takes years to build your your brand. Need to be famous within the sector so that people God yeah, great. I love, you know, less spirit. I love to chat to you or you know, whatever or I've got any you guys before. 33:19 But you've done some great things and I dunno your shows when she gets that stage. It's a lot easier to open the doors. But what I'm finding more and more. These days is that I'm trying to be more laser focused in terms of what we develop and having that USP really does make it easier for us because people buy shows people Commissioners come to to us now. 33:39 Because they go. Are you guys the ones that will do that? And also, when you go to them it makes total sense that you, why you wear your pitching that show, but we we make money through all sorts of different ways. So like I said, we self publish our own content, our own Brands and we make money through Brands sponsoring it through brand, through adverts, being inserted into it. 34:00 Through touring. It Books TV shows whenever we make money through straightforward, commission's going to a broadcaster. Selling an idea of working, like, development pipeline. I mean, the thing is, I've got a five-man development team, now, that is literally developing and churning out ideas constantly, but also trying. 34:22 It's a balancing act because I don't, if I don't want to be just the guy that scattergun in Commissioners, and they go, oh my God, you never just let up and none of your ideas of really fully formed. You've got to make sure that when you hit a commissioner, you really understand them what they've done before an absolute, you're going to land something that's going to make them go. 34:39 I'm going to go This is brilliant irie irie. I could get behind this. This for me is a show that I would, really, really want to make. So there's a straightforward commission's really hard, really, really, really hard, but it's just about getting your. I'd say, it's about getting your game plan together, your engine going and about optimizing interest just, you know, after a while, you know, you're going to know what your system is, and your system has to be about keeping up with them. 35:05 But, you know, only see the same commissioner, you might only see that four times a year, but every Three months. You will make sure that every time you see them, you Droppin in Summit goal, that might suddenly spark something that will then move into differential, proper development with them. Having said that there's been moments where I've literally I've had, I've had two or three shows where boom drop the thing in, and it's like that and then it's gone straight to Pilot and you've been very lucky that sometimes it's about luck and timing. 35:30 In fact, most of it's about the right then there's the financing. So we've started moving into film funds now, which is a great way of if you can find the right. Finances. Then that's a great way of having real. Editorial, control over what you do. And then there's also a new model that we're just starting to look at. 35:47 And we've been running meetings with is the world of fast TV and a bod. So we're now looking at doing we're talking to it, there's a company that we're working with that is a broadcast, the distributor that are pre-funding documentary Series. 36:04 So we're just in development environment on a number of documentary series that are pretty fun. Did a low level but you but you get higher kick back on the return, right? Yeah. So you know, as you can see, there's lots and lots of different ways of making money. 36:20 And I think, once you once you have that sort of ability to get one of the things about having a digital side of the business is that we have in-house capability, we have in-house kit, operators, your editors all that stuff. So, when it comes to doing a project that is low funded documentary series, we can do it because everyone's everyone's on. 36:39 Stuff. Yeah, if you're a traditional Indie you can't do that because you'd have to be paying them. A freelance day rate. You don't have any stuff and you only sign those people when you have a production 36:50 Speaker 1 and because you've got let in house product, There's always is essentially a revenue pipeline, you're not just having the commission or funding cash coming in. You are still having a regular cash 37:06 Speaker 2 flow. Most most of the money that we make is worse. We sleep. Yeah. Revenues are coming in from all the content we've made over the years, you know the lion whisperer is one of our language for TV. It's got some it like I think six million Subs across the platform across the portfolio of platforms, does millions and millions of years and it's been going to seven years. 37:24 The video that you made seven years ago, still making us money. So it's kind of like once you've got that as your basis and that and you can survive off, you overheads of that. Then actually for us the TV Originals is a complete that that's the cherry on the top. 37:39 Yeah. And as you know, we only went back into TV five years ago, the first five years, we were mostly digital, and then we went inside to get back into producing long form again, but five years ago. But what's great. Now is that you Right. It came back to me. 37:55 You said, oh, you're on in 5 years ago? Commissioners would be like, are you guys the digital guys? I'm like, well, we are, but also, how was an exec, producer, a director and them all for a long time, Jillian's. Like you can't. Yeah. Now they kind of go. Oh, you guys are the exciting, guys, you guys are the ones we want to be working with because, you know, how to do X, Y and Z. 38:13 And you also, you can create programming on a budget. When someone I've got no money, that will look incredible and do us bigger numbers because you understand the audience. And 38:21 Speaker 1 with the become, you can take a few more risks. 38:24 Speaker 2 Well, probably definitely like now I fund a lot of tasters whenever you see that we produce. We produce a lot of mini pilots and tape stuff that when we really, really believe in it stuff that we think will really help sell that final idea to bring it to life. 38:41 Yeah, I mean it's a complicated job but you know in terms of selling to getting so made the truth is I would say you've got to go to run fast and the My biggest bit of advice to anybody that has got an idea. 38:57 And I want to get commission is if it doesn't go within the first few months, just drop it in the oil. So many people that I know come to me with ideas and they've been, they've been traded it away for years and obviously, there are successes that like, you know, that were taken. 39:14 I think I remember what it was thing. Steven Lambert says to me, but like, it was something like 10 years before that show. Got one of the show's got sold. That's I think that's what I think I do. Anything wrong in having stuff in your locker, but you just gonna keep moving forwards and don't get hung up on your one idea that you can't let go of, is not the idea. 39:35 Trust 39:36 Speaker 1 me, it's a big pick. The hell you don't. Don't don't pick a hill to die 39:39 Speaker 2 or not. Exactly 39:40 Speaker 1 run around a lot, exactly. And when it comes to finding new talent, that how do you as a vibrant, born digital Studio, how do you, how do you find the kind of people that 39:53 Speaker 2 work for you? Question actually, quite been quite tricky. Early is good at both really. Now, obviously, the world of social content is becoming a teenager. Yeah. So there's lots of, there's lots of people and also there's like lots of big platforms on their Union. 40:08 To look at that led by a bore like, rocks or vice, you know, Joe Media or any of those guys. There's been there's been a lot of people that have been trained now. And also I think there was a nun also speak um you know it's a is taught at universities, has been for quite some time. 40:24 I think also as well, that that generation of quite native the B, the B, the B that generation lacks is the production skill set that we would have been brought up with, which is a slightly sort of bit happy. You know, production values as opposed, is the part of the way of saying it, but then that's easily taught and then, and then the older people in the business, which is a bit of a weird thing to say now, but I sort of our age. 40:50 You know, you are, you can bring in TV exec. And then after a while by osmosis, I think it does. Take a while though it takes a couple of years, but by osmosis bit by bit, if, you know, after all the meetings and the sort of seeing how our internal Communication System slack, the, the teams share the updates and the winds, and the stats and the data and all that stuff. 41:16 So like, you know, a TV exec in the business, can look at a data report on a podcast and kind of go, well, that's interesting. Lots of questions about it. And also, one of the things that we've starting to put into place now as we scale is like monthly away days with like the heads of those departments. 41:35 So actually by Others May mean in those? Yeah things everyone can talk but yeah, you're right. It's not like it's not a natural skill set and to be honest, you the skill set that I created for myself is really like snickering in a sense because it all sounds very exciting that like, you know, that we've got this ability to make money in order. 41:54 Current ways and we and also that we're not tied down to making one type of content and it can be as exciting from a 15 seconds to a feature film. I get that old sounds, it must sound, you know. Wow, it's amazing. But actually it's very complicated than that because like app to run that as a business, is very complicated because just being a film being coming that makes films where everyone knows how to make films is a lot easier than running 42:17 Speaker 1 actually has even in a microcosm of, like, just what I'm doing at the moment of running from a studio show to a short drama. Two 25-minute VT pack. Kind of show that the gears in your head going across different genres and stuff can be quite 42:35 Speaker 2 tough. But also, by doing that seemed like when we, when we start to have the industry, I mean, like it's mad thing that we you and I have known each other product. Like for 25 years now, 20, 25 years. Well, we first started, you were only allowed to work in one shot. 42:52 Like if your CV if you feel Phoebe's that you did trauma for a start. It might even question. What type of drama you do? You are like, but like you can work on a sports program. If you've got drawing the TV. So I'm going to be like we've been experiencing Sports and I understand that and I think when you get to a certain level of any think that absolute expertise is a real thing, but also what I think the I think the internet has provided which is a brilliant thing. 43:16 Is it some split all that up? So like I'm when I said that we can tackle any drama and sorry any genre as long as we're sort of fulfilling General values. That's way more exciting. So you running from doing a drama to a short form to VT when you're when you move from one thing to another, you've got that thought process or those other things. 43:36 And actually, that's if you're, you know, I don't think that I'm a program manager. I think I'm a creative and in order to be the best great if I can be, I need to. I need an inspiring and I need to be able to think about how I disrupt and change things or do some. It's new and actually serve. 43:52 I take it by having all these different Not things that we make. I can borrow skill sets from each of them and put them into each other and that will give you something 44:02 Speaker 1 but it's a bit like being multilingual for each language. You add it opens up a part of your brain and it you helped discover new things that you wouldn't if you were just thinking in one 44:13 Speaker 2 language exactly that. And I suppose also opens up your opportunities in different territories and different, you know? 44:20 Speaker 1 So obviously You're incredibly busy and you're always having to come up with ideas. Like how do you, how do you have a creative process or how do you approach creativity? Like when you have to come up with an idea or when you're mulling on idea, do you like, get out of the office? 44:37 Do you have things that you do that, help you? Well, 44:41 Speaker 2 I think I think having creative brain that can think in terms of formats ideas We arcs anything, any of these sort of things that we've been talking about. 44:56 It's like training a muscle and the more you add, the more you do it, the better, it gets. And so by osmosis now, naturally everything I see and do sparks something because my brain is open to that Jermaine its kind of the pathways are, you know, I'm always receiving. 45:16 I'm always receiving the inspiration and then kind of going. What is it that I could do with that? At in terms of process and how you get that into the thing, yet we do it at development away a day once a month as a team where we go through, it's been half a day going through our process and our system and seeing whether there's anything we can do to improve that, in terms of a ratio of development sales, is there anything we can do to tweak the to tweak, the system to improve how we're getting. 45:45 I the best ideas down on, and getting them out and getting them converted. And then we spend half a day to In about things that the new roots of things that we want to do now is to the two ways of development. There's every channel and most, you know, Brands channels. 46:03 Most of the world will have a brief. So all the channels have briefs, you can find them on the Internet. Once you're fully face producer in the in that world you we get invited to they put on days for you and you go and you look all the Commissioners talk and they give you a brief this part of me. 46:19 Let's the team follow. Those briefs because it's a good way to inspire ideas. But at the same time, I always think that actually it's a bit like watching Sunday League football team, because as soon as a brief comes out every what song kicks the ball and then everyone chases it that way. 46:35 Yeah, yeah. Well obviously you've got to be in it to win it but at the same time, I always say to my team. What happens if we run the other way where there's where to the channels that have them put a brief out the moment or so everyone's focusing over there. Yeah. So like so like so then so then what we try and do is Remind ourselves of our values and our USP constantly. 46:54 And what the things that we really think that we would be super, super excited to make if only, we could make it and how big could we make it? So we work on special development where we sort of try and build out those big, big ideas, that might be in scripted, might be unscripted, might be, whatever, but it's kind of how to do that. 47:12 And then once we really believe in that, we will spend some time on that development, and I'm not talking weeks I'm talking about a, we're, we're, we're we're, we'll do some proper, you know, your spend money on doing it, and that, I suppose that's when you're sort of starting to talk about more like the Netflix development or whether because if you win that, the prize is really big. 47:28 So if you can, if you can package a show that feels like, oh my God, that's so undeniable. Then it doesn't need to be a brief or Channel because every channel wants a journal. Yeah. And then in terms of like how we the process we go, we have a really simple, we have a WhatsApp group that never stops and it's like, and it's like, you know, social media is a great this the stuff also, you know, in on a daily basis someone will be dropping in a link from the Is or an Instagram video, the cinema Tick-Tock real, or photograph of something there just wall post or, you know, or just a simple. 48:00 What if? And I'm really lucky that, I've got a group of people that are really like for coming with ideas all the time. I mean there must be, I don't know, I don't know how many ideas a day get generated into the group but it's literally there for us all to brain dump person as it happens. Yeah. And then that way, if something really sparks, then it'll come to life. 48:20 The other way we do is we do development, Games but I'm sure most people are used to doing that. You know, I love you. One of the fun ones is take two traditional. Take two shows that are on TV and smashing together. Yeah, sure playing. Which right now, though they've got it. Yeah, I'll give you 2 shows. So your to shows our Master Chef and gogglebox, right? 48:41 Speaker 1 So let's say if you took us both do it. Okay, you go 48:46 Speaker 2 first, that's what it is about, what we just think, 48:50 Speaker 1 I'll cut it. So it's really tight and we 48:58 Speaker 2 Okay, Michelle. It's called your content doesn't cut it, right? It's a show where a bunch of world-leading chefs sit in pods together watching all of the, all of the Instagram videos where people have made cooking shows that are absolutely rubbish, and it's called your content doesn't cut it. 49:21 And it's basically, We it's them, it's them doing a gogglebox rinks. Rinse of all the of the world's worst food shows and Instagram, 49:28 Speaker 1 I was going with maybe something similar, but it was like along the lines, it rate my plate, and it would be people who only predominantly live on take-out food and don't ever cook. Suddenly have to cook meals in an Instagram kind of taster cooking show way and then, and then a gogglebox. 49:52 Type of audience. Look at it and kind of comment on how that look like it's more about the old that looks like shit or that looks like whatever messed up plate or whatever. Yeah, good or maybe comedians maybe comedians could 50:08 Speaker 2 do them is C so you can see how that beginning of Lights quite it's like, you know, that's quite a fun process especially on a Friday afternoon like 3:00 when you can go and have a beer and you're all sitting around and you start everyone starts throwing two shows together, you sometimes Turns out of it. You go like oh my God, that's actually really 50:24 Speaker 1 good. What? That's the thing I think, particularly, when I talk to people, starting out they really pain themselves over coming up with ideas and then they do that thing of all. That's not good enough and I think trying to explain to them, you have to constantly, curate, you constantly have to throw stuff around and you kind of need a scrapbook of stuff days. 50:49 I mean, I'm I scrapbooks. Much. I make playlists of music that in spite, like I just need that stimulus and I think people don't think about 50:58 Speaker 2 that. I Shazam any music that I think would be brilliant for my show, then it automatically drops into my Spotify. Is she some playlists? And then, whenever I'm looking for music for a show, nice, I can just go for the playlist and listen because I know I that really good in my shirt. It's a, it's about processes at a one bit of advice. 51:15 I would say to anyone that's like starting out is that when I first started, now one really explains. Me how format worked. And it's sort of like the sort of like this kind of and yet it's really really easy people talk about the Beats of a former and I'd hear these words over the first few years of my career in what the beats the format and I'll be thinking what the hell are they talking about? 51:37 You know, and actually when you break what so what is a really good process to go through, is to find a TV show that you like and then to just write down what you think in order that when we talk about Beats or format we're talking about what are the different things that happen in that? 51:54 That every week are exactly the same. So it's like, for example DIY SOS is first thing. We're going to meet a family, that's having a lot of trouble in their lives. Through it might be illness. 52:10 It might be disability whatever and they live in a place that isn't suitable for them. So first of all, sob story backstory, second B, is, we're going to work on a particular Plan to completely revolutionize this house and work out how all the things we do in the design process will benefit all the things we just talked about. 52:35 And the next part of the beat the next beats of the format is we are going to now throughout the middle of the show. We're going to have some fun doing some builds seeing everyone working, but at the same time, we're going to Pepper it with something that happens every single week. Nick Knowles will go off because they're going to do something special and make one piece. 52:54 Thing or furniture or whatever. It's going to sit in that house. What he does is he allows you to allows us to because no, because actually watching the building's pretty boring. We don't want to see that. We want to see the transformation so we need something to distract the audience each week. So Nick is going to go and meet someone that is going to. 53:09 Give us some educational take out. We're going to go off and we're going to go and spend five minutes with someone else. Will they make something special that he can come back and feel like he's put his mark on that house. Then we're going to then we're going to go into the next beat which is the Panic, the Jeopardy, the race to finish. Because everyone's the time is running out the time's running out. 53:28 They're going to be coming back, we've got to get everything done and then three to one of the reveal their back Where've You Been now we're going to show you open your eyes, the tears, the thanks the out. And if you think about, if you can actually look at TV show in the way that I've just outlined those beets, and you can sort of work out that every week that thing keeps does the same thing every week. 53:51 So that is an audience. We're going to, we know what to expect. Perfect. We know that and also that structure is there to keep us to the end? The fact that we don't see the reveal until the very end and we know that it's going to be an emotional thing. It's a feel-good human thing to see that. So actually the fact that we've been kept in this whole time of retained is a really big important part of the former. 54:12 So once you understand how a format Works in that respect, which is essentially sort of a, you know, three-act structure, or a story arc or a kind of like you noticed, a difference drama. Yeah. Yeah. Then you can start looking at how you might Do a show. So you might, what a really good practice to do is to go. 54:29 I want to make a show about cars. What happens if I take the format of the Osos, which I know is really popular former and there's so many shows that follow that format. So many. What's my car show? That does the same thing. What's my car? Show that meets a funny the beginning that hasn't got a car or need to cut all their cars broken and needs it for whatever. 54:50 You know, you know what's the car repair shop version of video are the cars? With, you know, and then at the end, the review, you know, it's when I think just just going for using those simple strategies to get yourself going before, you know, it that muscle, I talked about at the beginning, that muscle is just primed and ready to go and everything you look at is sparked 55:12 Speaker 1 off. No, no definitely at that. That's a really good point, because I think it is something that new people new to, it really struggle with it and maybe we don't spend enough time. Acting what we watch to work that out. Sometimes we always start from scratch and we don't look enough at the stuff that we watch regularly and going. 55:31 How is that 55:32 Speaker 2 working? I'm absolutely. My wife goes mental at me because all I do is deconstruct television films 55:40 Speaker 1 drought and you've always done that you were doing that. When I first met you, you were, you would geek out on like, how does that work? Let me take that 55:46 Speaker 2 apart. I think, you know, I think that is the thing because because I was an actor as a kid in television shows and that's how I came to it. I was right. From a little kid, I was like come from the age of 10. I was like going oh my God, I was like seeing the secrets behind it. Don't mean it was like it was I was, I've been given I've been gifted access to the magic. 56:06 That no one else ever gets to see or thinks about. So right from an early age. I'd be like, how did I do that? Why they do that? Had my very first shot. My first job was on a blue screen and they couldn't keep my own property. I had one blue eye on them at a multicolored top of they couldn't kick. 56:22 So then I was like, that's cool Chrome. Mickey. Wow. So then every time I saw a program like like he's not very good you know? So like I think I think maybe it's I don't know whether that's just what it is but whether it's like also I'm sitting right hypercritical of myself and everything. 56:38 I do it's like I just want to absolutely love what I do for a living and it's not really a job. It's a hobby and just want to be as you want to get better and better and better. And I don't think we're anywhere near as gives a convenience that that part of the fight is convincing. 56:53 Others to give you some money. She trying to prove it and to do it. Jeremy fight, all the money in the world, five, Norman the world. I do, I go to, I could probably have made a Harry Potter movie by now, but I wouldn't have a clearer to me warm currently, because I've not got there that. Yeah, so yeah. My fight is like constantly pushing them back to the beginning. 57:09 This is like a, this is like a good call back on a comedy set, but my I said in the beginning, I'm halfway up that hill with a massive Boulder. Make still pushing it to the 57:16 Speaker 1 top. Nice. Well, that seems to be a great place to wrap up because we've done the our I know that was I know it. It goes by fast. I suppose. If I was going to ask you one last question before we go and it's a two-parter one. 57:33 Like if you were talking to yourself back, when we were at ravensbourne, what advice would you give to? As you go out and secondly, because mental health is such an important issue to you. What do you have to say about the industry? 57:49 We work in and how it looks after mental health? 57:52 Speaker 2 The first question, What I would say to myself. And I think this is the most important thing is trust your gut, trust your own instinct. Because I didn't follow the traditional route of the ladder. 58:13 And at times, I questioned so many times, whether what I was doing was the right thing and that I wasn't and that I should get myself back onto the ladder, but actually in the end, I'm so glad if I could go back. Now to the times when I was worried about the things, I've go, don't worry about it, you just stick to what you're doing and just keep driving forwards. 58:35 Because the end of the day, it's about belief and believe in yourself. And so like when you have that gut feel about whether I think is, right or wrong for you. Always listen because otherwise you will make the wrong choices. And I'm so glad that I was offered a 9 Grand a year, run a job. 58:55 So going to turn it down because it didn't feel right and I just thought I don't want to be on that same Rat. Race will be able to. I want to go a different route and want to learn different skill sets and I want to be Innovative and groundbreaking and if I go and do that I'm just going to send me the one else. 59:10 So that's my first. That's my first question is critical in terms of the mental engine. Very interesting. And I started to see some change. One of the things that we're looking to work really hard on it, spirit is making sure that our pastoral care. 59:26 And the, the world that that we create for our team matches, our outward values. Provide whole, you know, I can see that there are there's a lot of people being called out. I think we're going through a bit of a, sort of a cancel, everything moment in time, which is enough, that's healthy. 59:44 The word toxic is bounded around a lot. Yeah. And I'm not sure how healthy that is. I think One of the big things that's having to change is that the industry there's not enough money really to make content safely for your mental health. And what I mean by that is people have to work longer hours than they're getting paid for it, is the stresses the teams aren't big enough, The Experience isn't there and all those things create stresses, which create the things that can be bad for mental health, could be anxiety bullying. 1:00:16 It could be toxic behavior, all that stuff but But it's on the agenda, isn't it? Which is a good thing. So, you know, I think we're at the beginning of it. Well, one of the things that we know that in the business is that what we what we what we might head of production is where you adamant about this and I really respect it is that making sure that people get the lunch hour and finish of six when they're not on a production day. 1:00:39 Yeah. If you're in production, why the hell'd you have to work till midnight to prove yourself? You know, she's really good at making sure that everybody respects each other's. In time and their mental health. And, and then, because she knows that when we're on production days, sometimes it's going to be a big old long day. 1:00:57 And there's nothing we can do about that. So it's about how do you counter balance? Those things in the meantime we've what we've got. And then the other thing I would I would say is that the on the the only negative thing I would say is that because mental health has become big on the agenda or is becoming more prevalent. 1:01:17 There is a tendency for people to use. Mental health is an excuse, a hell of a lot more for not coming to work, right? You're needing a bit of time off or to do XY and z, and that's fine. I think if it's if it's absolutely needed then we should absolutely know. We've talked about this a long time that fit your mental health is important issue. 1:01:34 You physical health but you just it's harder to see the woods to the trees. In terms of if anyone's is becoming such a sort of, it's a very easy thing because, because businesses can't challenge it. 1:01:48 Speaker 1 So Becomes a catch-all 1:01:49 Speaker 2 state will it yet and also the will of My worry is not that like, maybe it's not, you know, I think after any time you'll start to see patterns about whether anyone really has any issues of whether they're blocking it, and from a business perspective to keep an eye on that because obviously you're paying people and so on. 1:02:05 And also, you want to look after your team, but at the same time in society, in general, if that increases and becomes just such an easy win, we're all happy and sad and you've all got to be resilient and that's being a human. But if we turn that into When I'm feeling a bit down. 1:02:21 I mean, you're poor mental health, that I need some time off, then then that's not real life. And my worry on a, on a, on a bigger scale is that that type of behavior could screw things up for the people that really have got big mental health issues, because you're taking up, you're messing with with money. 1:02:43 With, with setting precedent, you're messing with the NHS. It's like, if everybody suddenly turning up to doctors because of their mental health and they have not really understood the brief proper. Yeah. Then because it, because of the way that because it's become a trend, then actually, what you're doing is you're taking up resources, and time and all sorts of stuff and then therapy time lead times will become even longer. 1:03:08 And one of the biggest problems we have in this country in the world is that therapies either expensive. You go private or takes forever. If you can't afford it and you go through the NHS and then quite often you need it now. No. Six 1:03:19 Speaker 1 months time. Yeah. I mean I said anything like just obviously working with students, I hear it a lot and I suppose my point is always to try and explore. What do we mean by that light? Like I you are you feeling down and trying to get people to understand their own emotions a bit more? 1:03:38 Because if you stay up all night and live on a bad diet and only drink beer during the week, you are going to like feel this way and sometimes Having anxiety is a natural response to a vulnerable act that learning is and I don't think we do enough, being able to have good meaningful conversations about mental health about the the length rather than just saying. 1:04:09 Okay, lots of people have mental health issues, Give them a pass and it's not about giving them a pass or denying them a pass. It's just how do we have a better conversation? About how our emotions are or how we feel and how I health is and I feel like that's not happening. 1:04:28 Speaker 2 Yeah, there's a massive lack of empathy in the world. 1:04:32 Speaker 1 Yes, that's a huge part of the problem, 1:04:34 Speaker 2 everyone's just so obsessed themselves. You know, we put our hands up and, you know, it's difficult to bring yourself. It's difficult to wake up from all the noise and kind of go actually have I checked in with that person and I understood them of, I really listened to They're saying or how I listened to. 1:04:55 I think you know being a leader in whatever you do is the hardest bit is to do that and yet it's most important than if you can do that right? You can be a really good leader. You can listen to what they say. But also listen to how they say it there might not always say outwardly but like if you can spot the things something honestly right. 1:05:18 It's something that I'm working extremely hard on the moment, I'm going through a big change of business, not had to not have to lead in that way up until now and now and now I realize more and more, I explore this this world of like how to understand humans and their needs. 1:05:39 The more it helps you, you know. Yeah it's a of in terms of keeping a happy ship. So I think it goes the same your staff. It's about trying to be empathetic listening, really listening and asking Sometimes asking the difficult questions, you know, I think 1:05:55 Speaker 1 in my previous job, I was very lucky to be sent on this amazing program. At Oxford is like a six weeks program on about high-performing leadership and it's all about the psychology of people and and why people do it? Revolutionized the way. 1:06:10 And I think it informs my teaching a lot because It debunked a lot of myths about what you have to be as a leader. Like you don't have to be this running around shouting person or always in control of stuff in it. But that's often what we're told as we go to grow up and it I don't think there's a there's enough leadership or empathy or emotional intelligence within education, just as a 1:06:38 Speaker 2 Grassroots thing. Agreed. Don't Leave 1:06:41 Speaker 1 Me. Maybe it's been so much fun to catch up with you and I've been written. Really nice to see you and I'm already thinking about how can I get you over here? 1:06:49 Speaker 2 Again, I'd love to that'd be good for my 1:06:52 Speaker 1 mental health. Yes, yes, definitely. Thank you so much for your time, Matt. And next time I'm in London will do a bit. Thank you