Creating Through ADHD with Dani Donovan

We want to tell you about something Nikki runs called GPS. That stands for guided planning sessions. It's a weekly planning membership for adults with ADHD who are tired of trying to figure this out alone. Twice a week, you show up. You plan alongside people who get it and you leave with a clear picture of your week. No perfection required, no falling behind just a steady supported rhythm that finally fits your brain. It is open right now through June 24th. And if you've been listening to the show for a while and wondering what the next step looks like, this is it. Find out more at takecontroladhd.com/gps. That's takecontroladhd.com/gps. Hello everybody and welcome to taking control of the ADHD podcast on rash pixel FM. I'm Pete Wright and right over there is Nikki Kinzer. Hello everyone. Hello Pete Wright. Hello Nikki. It's the end of October and you know that gets my brain going about November. Oh well that makes sense. You know what's going on in November right? Oh it's the writing thing. It's the writing challenge and it's also about beers. Oh yeah, now I let that go. Okay, because you already have a beer. No, no shave. It's no shave all year. No shave. No shave at all. So my writing got the writing thing? No, you are but we try not to diminish it by calling it the writing thing. We call it national novel writing month or nano-rimo. I'm sorry. And I am gearing up. I think I'm going to do it. Oh and also my birthday. I forgot. That's good. Somebody had to remind me in the chat room that in fact November is Pete's birthday. And I'm gearing up toward is it possible for me to just take a year off when it's my birthday. I think that's called retirement. And I'm not quite there yet, but that's it's on the horizon. AARP would like me to know through the junk mail that it's on the horizon. Anyhow, nano-rimo gets me thinking about creativity and the way my brain works and the fireworks and the imposter syndrome and shame that comes with turning out crappy writing. And so I wanted to talk about creativity and ADHD specifically. How do you create through ADHD? And is there a better person to do it than the person we have on the show today? I don't think there is. I don't think there is a better person. Before we dig in though, head over to take control ADHD.com and get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show there on the website or subscribe to the mailing list and we'll send you an email each time a new show is released. And of course you can connect with us on Twitter or Facebook at take control ADHD. And if this show has ever in your history of listening to it in the last 10 years that it has existed, if it's ever touched you and changed the way that you work with your ADHD, that you live with your ADHD, that you experience your ADHD, we would encourage you invite you even to join the ADHD community at patreon.com/thedpodcast. And you can become one of the few, the proud that actually watch our recordings of this show live. You can get special access to workshops that Nikki and I produce every single month. You get all of Nikki's forms and worksheets and checklists that we've talked about for years and years. They're all in one place. All for a few bucks a month. We encourage you to do that. Mostly you're just helping to ensure the longevity of this show and the work that we do here. And you can get all of the work that we do here at patreon.com/thedpodcast to learn more. Okay, here we go. Danny Donovan is a designer and illustrator and is the voice and hand behind some of the most impactful comics explaining the ADHD experience. I came across Danny's work alongside millions of others when we discovered her storytelling flow chart and realized, oh my god, she nailed me. She's also the voice behind the neurodiverse squad on Twitter, a community of those seeking belonging and support through their ADHD experience and beyond. We're all here today to talk about the ADHD experience as a creative, both professionally and personally. And we're so, so lucky to have Danny here to share her experience today. Hello, Danny. Hi, Mark. How's it going? Welcome. So well. So well, glad to have you here. Let's start with the comics. Can we for those who don't know your history? Tell us a little bit of background about how you started blind your creative trades to the ADHD comics and the ADHD community. How did you decide, hey, I think I should be a voice for this stuff. Well, if anything is that's absolutely not a thought that I had. I definitely fell into this by accident, which I think happens to a lot of people. I had started off just by, so I work full time at Gallup and I had a group of new coworkers and I'd never talked about mental health in the workplace before. And they just kind of were opening up and talking about therapy pretty openly. And this was just a new experience for me. I just kind of put myself out there and told them that I had ADHD and they were cool about it. There wasn't any, you know, any different. And so it kind of got us joking about, you know, how I tell stories. And I decided to like map it out as a joke and said to one of my coworkers and didn't really have any attention of posting it because I hadn't disclosed to my boss who followed me on social media. And she thought that I found it somewhere and said it to her. And then she was like, "Wait, you made this?" And she was like, "You have to post it." And so I had this moment where I had to decide, do I leave it saying ADHD or do I take that off and just have it be how other people tell stories and how I tell stories. And I'm like, "Well, I'm just going to post this on Twitter because nobody I know follows me on Twitter." So it's pretty safe that like, you know, I'm not going to accidentally disclose to anybody by doing this. And so I just decided to leave it and to post on Twitter. And pretty quickly it was like, "Oh, no." Like I had this double side of like, "Oh, no." And like, "Oh, awesome." And so people, everybody in my world found out pretty quickly. So it was like this big, kind of like coming out of-- - A unveiling? - Yeah, right. - Yes, what? And so I couldn't really put the cat back in the bag after that. And I did not realize how like, freeing it would be. I'm like, "I should've done this forever ago." Like I can mention it now and like, talk about how it affects me. And so the first one I made was that flow chart. And I, the amount, the responses I got from people who had ADHD saying that the last little part this is apologize. Just some people that's like funny. And other people, it's like, "This is a kick in the gut." I always apologize for talking. And to like, have people tell me that really inspired me like, "Okay, well, I have to make more of these." And I started out the gate like too high. I'm like, "I have already peaked." - Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. Like that's the story telling me, he's still forwarded all the time. Like it still has such traction. Like how do you go from there to, I just know that if that were, if I were in your shoes, I would have crumbled in like paralysis, creative paralysis. - The thing that bothered me the most was that I had the thought that I should put a watermark on it. But I was like, that means I'm full of myself. And I think that people are gonna steal this if I put a watermark. So I won't put a watermark. And then I did it and then no one knows who made it. - Right. - So eventually I made one with one and it circulated and people kind of found out. But I think maybe part of that, I convinced myself, maybe part of that is good because I did have to like grow a little bit more organically. It wasn't like, I had this like one hit wonder kind of syndrome because I didn't actually get big off of that first one. And so, but yeah, early on I knew like I have to, in my head be okay that all of my comics are not going to be this way. And that's okay. Maybe someday I'll hit it again out of the park. And I had that email, that email like a boss one that's gotten, that one gets shared around too. But I learned to put watermarks on that one. So anyway, yeah, just kind of that paralysis of, oh no, have I peaked already and then it kind of making the decision of like, I don't, I can't care if that's the best thing, you know, not the best thing. But if that's the most popular thing I ever made because it was the, you know, spark that started all of this. And if I hadn't gotten that kind of a huge response, I don't know if I would have felt so compelled to make more things. Well, that's the thing is that, that even just that one comic made, and I don't even know, like you said, is it a comic? I mean, I guess it is. But when some people feel like that punch in the stomach, you, you know, you're going to touched so many people and so many people related to that which is a wonderful thing. When did that go out? Time frame wise. I'm just curious. I made it in December of 2018. So it hasn't quite been a year yet. Yeah. It's just crazy. Yeah. Yeah. What have you had? I'm sure. Well, because as as a result of this and as a result, I mean, of the kinds of people who have picked it up and who have shared that experience, like you have become a voice quickly of a strong voice in the ADHD community. Like, how? Like, how do you do ellipses? Like, you know, social media. Really the knowing. So I was director of social media for AIG and Nebraska on the volunteer board of directors for three years. And so I always had an interest in not just how social media works for like brands and companies, but kind of not in any kind of form away, but just paying it because I don't have a history. I didn't take, you know, didn't go to school for anything, but paying attention to what types of things do well. And I've always posted like relatable content. I just didn't really have an audience for it. So now that people people just see it more. I mean, like, it's funny to me because I've been posting this stuff for forever and it'd be all excited. Like, it got two likes. And so the, I'm doing the thing, what were we talking about social media? And so really finding that kind of platform, I guess, where for me, I never did a ton of research on ADHD. I didn't really talk about it. I honestly didn't really think about it too much. Even though I've been diagnosed for 10 years. And so for me, doing it almost as like art therapy. And publicly knowing that this is going to give me the feedback of reassurance that other people feel this way. Because I knew even if it's only a few people, like someone else, this is going to connect with them. And so feeling like this double sense of like responsibility of like, okay, I haven't seen this kind of stuff before. And I know how much this would have meant to me if I would have seen this earlier. And then knowing like the process of coming up with this stuff is going to help me better understand myself. So it's, you know, I do it first and foremost for me. I like to say, which is sound selfish, but I think it helps me to keep things really my experience. So I'm not telling people, everybody with ADHD is like this. I like very purposely try to make sure that especially my captions are, I feel this and this affects me like this and not people with ADHD can struggle with this. Because I don't want people to feel like I'm speaking for everyone. Well, I think that is the real gift of the comics and the way that your art sort of well, so again, hits me because you say, you know, I haven't seen anything like this. My experience of looking at your pieces as they come across my my feeds and and subscriptions thing is it's not that I've never seen anything like this. It's that my God, I have lived this for so long. Like it feels so attuned to my experience. And I think that's the the real gift of your style as the authenticity with which that you you approach it. And so let's can you walk us through your your process like how you actually come up with these things in a way that you know, I'll say with the ADHD caveat that's clear. There's some sort of rhyme and reason to it to all the chaos. So I kind of start, I get the first one started from an inside joke. The other ones are just like things in my head that I always I think in metaphors a lot. I know a lot of people kind of have the tendency to do this and it's just how I make sense of things. And so when I'm just throughout the course of the day, I tend to just notice like this weird hyper self awareness that I have now of noticing when I do something. I'm like, I do that a lot. Other people don't do that a lot. Is that something that could be this? Is that something that could be ADHD? And I kind of like look it up a little bit to see if I'm usually I'm like, yeah, no, for sure. But sometimes I do look it up to make sure it's not just a me thing or I have bipolar too as well. And there's so much overlap. And so I always want to if I can try to make sure that it's something that other people with ADHD struggle with. And so but before all that, if I just have an idea and if I am out out in a boot, I have a Google note on my phone and I literally just type out like a sentence or two about what I'm thinking. And I have this gigantic note with tons of just random ideas, some of which don't make sense when I go back and find them weeks later. I'm like, what was I even talking about? But if I'm at home or I have the ability to I have quite a few different, I'm like gridded notebooks and I will just draw the sketchiest, messiest version just to capture like idea capture. And so I have notebooks full of half-baked ideas and or very rough concepts. And I don't put the pressure on myself like if I draw it out right now, I need to like finish it today or finish it this week. I'm just like, I know I've got it down somewhere so I won't forget about it. And so then a lot of the stuff I've been coming up with I had one recently with like about responsibilities and it's got these little like dogs and the ADHD dogs are just like taking naps and chasing butterflies and floating away up a loons. That was actually the second thing I ever drew right after the storytelling flow chart. And it just came out. Yeah, so sometimes when I'm like, I want it, but I do get the urge like, I kind of want to make something or it's been a while and I'll just flip through my notebooks and I'm like, oh, I forgot about this one. So then when I'm actually in the mood to like illustrate, I have this book full of things I could illustrate. And then when I'm in the mood to ideate, but not necessarily execute, I have this low pressure way of not needing to like make a final product. And so that in combination with not putting pressure on myself to stick to a schedule, that's been a huge thing. So I don't feel like I'm failing necessarily by not reaching goals other than I want to make these and make it sustainable. Well, we're going to come back to that because you've used a number of times like giving myself permission, feeling like I'm not failing like low pressure. Very curious how you kind of navigate that. But before we get there, you when you take, so I understand your capture process, which is fantastic. So just catching inspiration so you'll remember it later and then brainstorming kind of massaging these things into ideas. How do you decide when there's a project? Like what is it about the dogs and the ADHD responsibility one where you decided this is one I'm going to create. This is one I'm going to I've settled on and I'm going to work on it until it's done. That one in particular, I had to pick something for I was doing a TV shoot for lifetime for this access health thing. And they're like, we need you to be making one. I'm like, oh, I got to kind of find one that's not going to take me that long. But I've been wanting to and a lot of them, I get started and I don't finish surprise. And so I always am really striving to not do something I've already done at least recently. And so making sure like, is this a new perspective or is this a way that might help someone look at something in a different light and is this a topic that I have it covered recently? And so the idea of having a hard time balancing responsibilities, I had done one recently about like prioritizing, which is kind of close, but not the exact same thing. So I've been trying to like touch on different topics. And I actually made a I got kind of stuck in a rut for like a month and a half and I did feel guilty like I need to be putting stuff out. I, you know, I'm stuck and I made myself a little like worksheet, right? And it says, oh, I should have brought it in here. I made a worksheet that's like a type of comic and it's like bar chart, then diagram, you know, comparison, this kind of stuff. And then below it, it's like topic. And I put like 20 different topics and then I put audience and it's, you know, parents or teachers or people with ADHD or people without ADHD and so Sometimes I'll just literally just check a couple boxes and then see okay. This is my parameters. What can I make in this? And it really forces me to push myself instead of necessarily waiting for inspiration to strike all the time Venn diagram about you know feelings and so Well, and that you know here we are and I'm looking at a Venn diagram about feelings Same coin is exactly It's exactly that you kind of see the results of it. I I look at You've told us a little bit about how you released the the first one right the one that started with the inside joke But there is this last step of you know, you've you've captured your ideas you've massaged them you've worked on them until they're finished and then you you Like you put it out in the world and I sit here I think about that and I there you actually have a comic that I think about all the time and it's the getting started comic and It is on the left it says you know, it's got a we've got a little character and standing on the top step of a set of stairs And it says you need to stop procrastinating you always make excuses. It's not that hard. Just do it You're just lazy and the ADHD side on the right It's the same set of stairs and they're very very tall and the poor little person can't even reach the stairs like that of You can't like how do you even get started when they're on on even the simplest of tasks if you can't even see the stairs You have to climb and the first step being so daunting. Yeah, right that the first step is huge and and so I look at That around you know freeing your creative works into the world like what what is that look like today When you're ready to push Publish or send or promote like what does that look like? I used to get in that kind of perfect I think a lot of us tend to be very perfectionistic of like I don't want to put this out there unless it's perfect or I don't want To put something out there if I could make it better or if What if other people don't like it what if it just needs more fine tuning? so Early on I Because I used to practice like calligraphy and stuff and I had the same thing and I would just put I just like post it as soon as I'm done with it Don't give myself too much time to overthink it just get it out and Move on to the next one and so then for that at least being able to see the progression of Skill and so for a lot of people they go back and they delete a lot of old stuff right to pretend like they've always been good Mm-hmm, and I just really like seeing that progression so knowing that was kind of what got me away from being gun shy about posting stuff but for me I guess knowing when something's finalized so my husband also has ADHD and so a lot of times Especially before I had a patreon setup or discord server anything I would show it to him and I wouldn't say anything I put I usually post them with captions But I would hand it to him not say anything and say what do you think of this or does this make sense? and He's very supportive and he's not critical just to be critical But if there's there's something that's like the first storytelling flow chart I had like a little cycle over here where you get kind of stuck and he goes I got stuck over here I didn't make it to the rest of the flow chart and so then I'm like okay I can totally see where that'd be confusing and so then I showed him this one and he's like well this these colors kind of get When they overlap they kind of get messed up so then I went and put little like space between So you could see where when something went back up how it went like behind it because there was a shadow over the underneath one of the arrows you can actually see it and so then When I looked at it and I'm like this this is polished because I'm so close to it That's sometimes I can't always see that stuff and so it's been he doesn't usually have feedback But then when he does it's really impactful where he says I don't really get this and if he doesn't get it right away He's like it might just be me though. Maybe I'm too stupid to get it or the things that we say to ourselves right? I'm like no if you don't get it someone else isn't gonna get it and so I'm not gonna explain it I'm gonna go back and kind of fix it up and bring it back and say does this make sense does this resonate so having a sounding board Of also some his ADHD looks completely different that mine and so it's a nice test of like Does this work on other people or is this just me? Because there are things that are just quirks that I have and so now I have patreon I've got a group text with ADHD alien and Jessica and Aaron and Sometimes we'll just bounce stuff back and forth, but I still first and foremost use my husband as a sounding board for if things are Ready to post right so he's he's like the final gate Yeah, pretty much of like it just doesn't get it. It's not good enough to post so lucky him Does he know this does he knows that you take it out because that's a that's important safety to Exactly no pressure Right, this is a duel. It's your fault. Yeah, that's right. That's right The so we talked about these are sort of the practical things and that leads us into the the more emotional stuff like When I know my accommodations Practically when my brain won't let me settle down, you know long enough to manage my own tools And that happens all the time is my my ADHD is just fireworks. It's just straight all the time fireworks I can I can sit very still and I can look like I'm totally listening But everything going on in front of me and I'm just not doing that and so I understand when that happens and I have accommodations But the the thing that I I struggle with him where my anxiety kind of triggers in is the emotional side when I get stuck Focusing on the things that I fear about creativity the the things like I better not start typing because I know the first words out of my Fingers will be garbage. I know that like I have those are the you know like you say the things we say about ourselves how do you manage this second area when it comes to the work you're trying to create and it doesn't even necessarily have to be the Comics we can be talking about your day job like how do you how do you manage the flow To to actually get stuff out and get out of the way of your own creative Malajussments That's a great question. Okay. I have so many different answers and I got a pick which one Let's do a vent diagram. Okay I really could just make a list a bar chart so One of the great things for working at Gallup is that we have the Clifton strengths And so it's a 34 it's an assessment where they kind of it's not like one of the ones where it's like you are an ENFP And it like puts you in a box that says this is what you are it's here. We've taken hundreds of thousands of people or millions of people now and rated These different strengths that we found and they're in these different domains, right? And so there's I promised this relates back. I super promised I'm just storytelling flow chart lady so you know I'll get there eventually You know and so there's strategic thinking executing relationship building and influencing and influencing is pretty rare and I have Four out of my five top are influencing which is which now makes sense to me because I have a natural skill set that lends itself to like internet influencing and But my executing themes are all really low which makes sense executive dysfunction, so those are like focused responsibility Discipline And I used to beat myself up about not being those things and working at Gallup has really helped me to realize that You can't be everything and so they give you the list of your strengths in the order So some people have like a cutoff or you're like okay everything below this is not me But oh my gosh, why was I talking about this see this is that this is the part okay, how do I use? And executes Yeah, getting over the emotional peers of creativity fears of creativity. Yeah, and so I Have found that because I've maximized her at my top, which is like I like to tweak things that like things to be perfect. I don't want good. I want great It seems like a real danger to actually Yes, it is especially in creativity because it's not like math where you're like I'm done. I got it. This is the right answer Like I've checked it this works. I can move on I have to say something that I just noticed is I love how you said You want it to be good or no, what did you know? I'm losing my train of thought you want it to be perfect. I don't want it to be good. I want to be great But you didn't use the word perfect Mm-hmm That's what I have to I had the whole thing where like perfection is a lot I I and it's so great that you can naturally say that what a great example to our listeners that this can be this can happen I love that. Yeah, just just understanding and being okay The hardest thing for me is being okay with putting something out there when I feel like I could have done better Because to me it's like other people will know that I could have done better Like other people are thinking oh she didn't try that hard on this or something like when they don't think that at all It's not true. Yeah, but he does that. They're not thinking that at all. And if they do I'm not gonna cuss, but they don't need that in your life. And so I have between that and my comics, honestly, the biggest thing I could say is like putting constraints on things, which seems counterintuitive 'cause it's like, I want everything but like, and I don't want a tiny little box, but I need walls somewhere, or I will not land the play in stop circling the airport. And so if I don't put any kind of walls, I'll just take up all of the time that I have trying to tweak it. And so not that I would necessarily recommend procrastinating as a technique, and I think part of it's 'cause I've gotten so used to it. When I was writing my talk for anxiety tech, I wanted, but all this pressure myself, where I'm like, I want this to be a TED talk, you know, like I want this to be this level of quality. I want people to like cry and walk away with a whole new perspective, and like I know how I want people to feel, but I don't know what I want to say. And so that was a lot of pressure to put on myself. And I started like a month in advance. I'm so proud of myself. I had a schedule of like, I'm gonna have the outline done by this day, and I'm gonna have the, and I was sticking to it. And I got to the end, and I finished three fourths of it, and I go, I don't like this anymore. And so I started over. I literally wrote 15, 15, half, either half speeches or full speeches. And I got to the end, I'm like, this isn't it. I don't like this. And it was like, oh, are you, you know, it doesn't have that big of a deal. I'm like, I will know it when I see it, and that's the whole issue with me is like, I know when I'm done, 'cause I'll sit back, I'm like, that's it, right? You feel it. Yeah, I know when it's done. And so what ended up happening was I started over again at the airport on the way to New York, and my flight got delayed seven times. And I, but it was okay, 'cause I was sitting there like, writing and writing and writing. Yeah, you get that adrenal boost, right? Yeah, and then I did it on the plane. I finished it on the lift, on the way to my hotel, and it was great. I finished, I go, this is exactly what I wanted. I'm very upset that I had so many meltdowns for this month, 'cause I was trying really hard to like give myself the time, 'cause they're always told, like, don't procrastinate, right? And in reality, like, sometimes the time constraint makes me really efficient. And I do really well under pressure, and I need to like allow myself to have that be okay. Now in some instances, that's a terrible idea, because I knew if I can't make something on the plane, I still have a backup one that I'm not happy with. So that helps a little bit, but anyway, having some sort of, even network deadlines, actual real deadlines. Is that, I mean, this use of constraints, I'm trying to put a frame around that, because I, isn't that a line? It's straight around it. I'm trying to constraint constraints, because I do that too, and I have, I think that, you know, in many ways, that's gotten me through a number of my most difficult, sort of creative challenges. It's just like, eventually finding a way to, wait till the last minute to do anything at all, because of all the other emotional anxiety, like, oh, it's gonna be garbage, I better not start. Eventually, I have to start, and it turns out fine. But I wonder if that is, if part of that constraint is a distraction from the emotional anxiety that allows me, finally, to push through and do some work. - I figured it out, mostly, I was, I figured it out, but every time I have, like, an emotional epiphany, I'm like, oh, man, I wish I wouldn't have figured that out, 'cause now every time I do what I'm gonna know. (laughing) But for me, it was the same. I did, I used to do a little bit of standard comedy, in Omaha, I just set, like, open my, night kind of thing, and I would write all my content the day of. I would write it right before I went it, I would practice it once or twice in the bathroom, I'd read most of it off my phone, but I do really well, and I, this guy, Dusty, who put it on me, said, well, you really should hone and practice the jokes that get really good and put them together, and I'm like, well, if I did that, that would mean that I cared. - Yeah. - And then I like tried, right? Because for me, that, and with my talk, I think mentally, somewhere, if I leave it to the last minute, if I don't give myself a ton of time, if it doesn't go well, I don't blame myself as much. - Yep. - I say, well, that's okay, I didn't try that hard, or like, you know, I couldn't have had it perfect because I didn't, you know, have enough time kind of a thing, and so I have like a built-in excuse if I fail. And usually I don't, but it makes me, it brings me comfort that I will like somehow be less upset than if I worked on it, worked on perfecting this set, worked and practiced and practiced and practiced, and then it didn't go well, that would break my heart. So it's like a built-in coping mechanism. - It's a weird thing for me. - Oh, truly, I call this one backpocketing success, right? I always have some conditions in my back pocket to pull out if something doesn't go well, and that's a terrible way to live, just as for myself. I don't wanna speak for you, but it's a terrible way to live, and I really struggle with that. It's the idea of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, you know, like I could have gone so well, but I went ahead and defeated myself. And what I find so ironic about hearing you talk about it is that these are the things you don't care about, and yet like you are de facto practicing and honing your skills in all of these things with every comic you release, right? I mean, you're better at it than you were even the day that you release the storytelling piece. And, but I wonder, do you think about the comics in the same way that you've been thinking about, you know, your stand-up career? - I, oh, the stand-up career is not a, that was like a hobby. It was on my bucket list. I did it once. - You did, that's good. - I was good at it, so then I kept going. It's just, it's the same thing as with comics where I like making people laugh. It makes me feel good and valued that dopamine rush is real. And so for me, I am very aware, I had a whole thing recently about how I'm competitive. I do like threads everyone's around now. That why I'm competitive and how I think that I need to be excellent to be worth loving. And that pressure, you know, has lessened a little bit with the comics because I just know people like, I don't say like my stuff, but the funny thing about the comics that I've realized is that I have always been myself up about not being able to keep up with passion projects. I start and quit so many fashion projects. I wouldn't even want to make a list, it would make me sad. So, but this one, I immediately, as soon as I started making another one, my brain immediately goes, how long are you gonna be able to keep this up? How long until you stop making these and disappoint everybody? Like now it's public, you know, and how long, how are you gonna keep this up? You know, you don't make time for things. And so, this whole experience has been so great at like, disproving that to myself. And like, really pushing myself out of that black or white thinking of how I should be doing things. And like, if I don't release a comic for a while, it doesn't mean that I don't make comics anymore. It doesn't mean that I have to feel guilty or apologize for taking a while. I like to think that people would rather wait for quality than we pump out about just stuff, just to have stuff because I want my collection. It's important to me that the collection of work can all stand on its own. And so, I don't necessarily want that filler and because I don't have it and because honestly, the stuff that I'm making, typically is so simple. It's flowcharts and bend diagrams. It's just my handwriting on an iPad with some lines. And it doesn't take, once I have a concept down, it doesn't take very long to make best storytelling flow chart, probably took an hour and a half max. And some people might tell them that they hate it. Just because like, do you know how long it takes me to make videos? But for me, the like, how short I know it will take matters 'cause there's, it's more difficult for me to fail, I guess, because even if one doesn't do that, well, it's like, well, it was only two hours or it was only four hours or it's not a month long thing. And I have this history, I have a background in actual illustration. And there's a lot of people who don't know that I can actually draw real things. (laughing) - And by that same token, I think it's super disingenuous to say that it only takes you an hour and a half to do that thing. I mean, you know what I mean? Like that's what people don't recognize is just the amount of fireworks and calorie burn that go on in your brain to get to that point where you can, - Yes. start drawing. And that's so much of what we exist to remind people of. Right? It's just like you have no idea the latter we had to build to make it to the first step. Yes, or the the history and because people like I just love how simple it is now cleaned it is and like I have my major was visual communication and design. Yeah. Right. So it was I mean it was graphic design but more than anything it's that learning taking years of learning how to communicate with as few things as possible. It is a skill that you have to hone. It's not something that necessarily come naturally to a lot of people. It only looks easy because of the thousands of hours that I've put into doing other things like this. That's the job. And how many ruined crumbled sketches there are of the same communication. Right. Well, it's a fantastic work and as we wrap up, would you please tell folks where they can go learn more about you and what you do and why you do it? Yes. So my website adhdd.com is still under construction which should surprise no one. It's actually really funny because you have this clock on it, right? And the clock moves. And as I loaded at this boarding, I had one of those ADHD moments where like it wasn't loading fast enough and so the hand was like skipping minutes. And I thought, oh my god, that is such a cool thing. She's reminding me that I have ADHD by my inability to see time. And then it's moved out. I was like, I had originally been the like under construction page and now it says I promised this will get finished officially. It will. It will. I have quarter one updates. But I, yeah. So my Patreon is the first place where all my comics get posted. Patreon.com/danidonivan. And all of my handles Instagram, Twitter, Tumblr is all just Danny Donovan. I still all the user names. Are you like where your parents big like comic book people or did you change your name to be a superhero name because you have the best one? You really have a great name. Peter Shake, but says, yeah. No, I, so I got married a year ago and didn't change, I mean, my husband didn't care, but didn't change my last name. No, he would, he would. That's just such a good name. Too good. And then my, my Facebook, my Danny Donovan is my personal one. So Danny Donovan art is what my Facebook is. But I typically, it goes to Patreon first and then Twitter and then Instagram and Facebook when I remember it. Do you want to plug the neurodiverse squad? What you're doing? Oh, yeah. That's good stuff. Yeah. So we have, it's just growing. It's been so much fun to watch it actually become a thing. I had originally kind of heard ADHD tribe being used a lot. So I was using that and then I had some members of the native community reach out and say, I know you don't mean anything by this. We kind of hate when people do that. So I was like, okay, well, maybe there's a more inclusive way that we can recognize, maybe not just ADHD, but people, you know, on the autistic spectrum people, you know, with OCD. And so neurodiverse squad, especially on Twitter, it's conversations and questions and people just tagging articles and find like reading through other people's stuff. And so it's great discovery element of finding people who, because if you search ADHD a lot of the times you'll get people who have ADHD like in their handle. And so it can sometimes be harder to find journalists who are talking about it. People like me who just have my name as a user name. And so being a part of that community and feeling that sense of belonging and connecting with each other has made Twitter especially such a valuable resource. So, which is weird to hear. Yeah. And so people are like, I hated this website, but this is like amazing. And so people had even kind of said that ADHD Twitter is blowing up. Like ADHD Twitter is becoming like a thing, you know, a community of people. And especially people who didn't know they had ADHD, who are, they see so many threads and so many comics now that resonate. And they go, wait a second. Well, it's wonderful. And you are curating a wonderful space. There are your contributions. It's just fantastic. Everybody go check out links in the show notes. Stanie Donovan, let's try not to make this last time we talk, huh? You're great. I definitely not. Thank you again for having me. Thank you so much to be here. It's great. Yeah. And thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We appreciate your time and your attention on behalf of Danny Donovan and Nikki Kinzer. I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next time right here on Taking Control, the ADHD podcast. [Music]