Creating neurodivergent friendly classroom experiences with Kate Evans - Developing Practice - University of Liverpool

This is Kate Evans, educational developer based in the center for innovation in education at the University of Liverpool and you're listening to the Academy's developing practice Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Academy's, developing practice podcast. In this episode. We chat with Kate about neuro Divergence and the importance of understanding this in relation to supporting Learners. We hope you enjoy. Okay, we're really pleased to be talking to you today. We're delighted to speak to you about neurodiversity, and the importance of understanding this in relation, to supporting Learners, whether they're those Learners are students or staff. But before we get started, we love to get to know our guests a little bit. So, could you tell us a bit about your background? And how you've arrived at the role you're in today? Yeah, sure. And thank you very much for having me, by the way. So every single education, Other put that you will ever speak to will have a different path to how they came to be doing the job. They're doing, mine has been partly by accident and partly by Design. So, I've taught and trained students and staff in aichi in many different guises over the years, the focus of my current work here at education. Developer is the curriculum and within that Focus, I've got a particular interest in, equality, diversity and inclusion. And so I'm the EDI lead for the center for innovation in education. I came To focus on EDI because I have any way, a very strong sense of social justice and I got a particular interest in disability when at the age of 15 so I was 15, my dad the suddenly became disabled so no warning. He lost his sight within a fortnight and that's been permanent and that just completely changed the way that I looked at the world. As I saw him encounter kind of barrier after barrier and have to show immense strength and courage and kind of finding a new identity and a new work. In life and a new way around, absolutely everything. So that's kind of what put me on that path if you like. And it's just continued in the work that I do. When I encounter students with disabilities or staff members with disabilities and then I had my own disability, which hit unexpectedly at the age of 33? Again an illness was not expected. That leaves me with a few challenges and that all of that kind of combines to give me a different lens. Look at chip look at everything with. So when I arrived at Liverpool I was really pleased that there are colleagues here we've got additional knowledge and the same passion that I have for once I wasn't kind of a lone voice in the room going, excuse me, has anybody thought about this? And yeah the work we're currently doing in my in my Center as well to do with inclusivity in the curriculum. I'm really pleased to be involved in fantastic. So is your work around EDI allowing all Just access the curriculum or is it in terms of ensuring representation in terms of EDI within the curriculum? It's sort of both, right? It's actually very blurry a little bit confusing. So when you talk about EDI in the curriculum you're looking at it from two very different angles, one of them is the student experience, they experiencing an inclusive. Curriculum. And the other is their own understanding of EDI that they will then need to take into the professional world and that goes into the content of Joachim. So it's it's you're looking at content. You're looking at the way, the curriculum is designed and trying to make sure that both of those things align really well. So that the students get that rounded experience and that's connected with the minute. Also, as some of you will be familiar with the fact that the QA a benchmark statements. Subject Benchmark statements are bringing in Ed is content. They're also bringing in decolonization which knocks on door. Hey, EDI. And then many of the this is where To get things come to, he SOB's, which I did write down. What that stands for. It's the regulatory bodies, professional statutory and Regulatory body. So if for example you're training to be an architect, there will be regular. Yes, you have to follow EDI is coming in those as well. Some of those leading ahead of the Q&A. So as Educators, when we look at the curriculum, we need to be really mindful that. This is not just a choice that people have now. This is actually increasingly becoming very Valued have a valuable part of the curriculum. Fantastic. Yeah, I guess that's the, that's the aim isn't it becomes the norm obviously, EDI in Corpus, has a huge amount of different things. So but today, we're looking at neurodiversity, in particular, in relation to supporting Learning and Development. So, I think for the sake of the listeners, I think it'd be a good thing to ask. What do we actually mean by neurodiversity? In this instance, that again, is a really useful question and I thank you for it. So Which we use a really important, particularly when we're looking at quality, because they often reflect hidden values, that underpin them. Neurodiversity is a classic example of something that is really well-intentioned. That's gone a little bit awry. So neurodiversity. The idea is we're all diverse were all including every single one of us on the planet will have a brain that works slightly differently from everybody else and that's fabulous and we should be really pleased and proud and happy as individuals. However it has been taken. In 2, Min people who have a difference. So you'll hear some people saying, ah, this individual is neurodiverse. You may even have individual saying, I am neurodiverse. You choose how you define yourself, but what you mean with new and adverse is that you uniquely you as an individual? We're not talking about an actual difference that is recognized. When we talk about neuro diversity in terms of recognizing different, That newer Divergence. That's a recognized difference in the way that the brain works. So, when you're thinking about things, such as conditions, like dyslexia autism dyspraxia, yeah. All of those conditions which are expressions of the brain working, insightly a different way to what we regard as neurotypical, which is how most people perceive the world. That is a neurodivergent brain. So you live urgence versus neurotypical, okay. Language is always Super E with EDI and I'm saying this, but I'm putting this in great big. Brackets, which says, please always ask the individual because everyone has their own identity and will tell you how they like to be referred to. But in terms of language and disability, it's complicated. Anyway, you have your, for a long time. It was it was disabled people. And then people started saying, you know, a disabled people saying, I do not recognize myself as a disabled person. I am being disabled by Society. I'm Person with a disability and get the person first language and that took off and that was very strong. Not that long ago and now you're getting a switch back again to people saying well you know I'm not somebody with this. My identity is that I am but disabled person in the autistic Community they're very sort of strongly tending towards I am an autistic person Somebody explain to me not that long ago they said you know you don't talk about it as I'm a Person with a hint of autism. They said, you know, I'm not a stick person. That is how I view the world. This this this is my reality and that's how I choose to find myself. And that for me was really interesting because it was a few. I haven't heard before. I was still in the person first zone. So when we look at neurodivergent and neurodiversity neurotypical the easiest safest at the moment, way to talk about it is neurodivergent versus neurotypical again, you know, your own typical is what's generally cultural norms expected neurodivergent? It is the added extra. I think it's really interesting. What you said, I was like you phrase about language as slippery, because he really is, and I think that's kind of be part of the problem is cut contact with these what things where people are a little bit, fearful tripping over themselves sometimes with this. So I like your advice as well about you know just ask the person that's it makes a lot of money it's good common sense that. So what issues do you see for neurodivergent staff and students in terms of accessing development in? Learning. So I think fundamental thing that we have to remember with this is that education has mostly been designed by neurotypical People for neurotypical. People was no questioning of the Norms that underpin. It neurodivergent is often invisible. So we talk about invisible disability. I personally slippery language much prefer invisible disability to Hidden disability because hidden implies an act of hiding and some people may be hiding but many of us are just invisible. So invisible disability, you may Have staff and students who prefer not to declare their disability, that's absolutely their writing. They are a really valid concerns or valid reasons for choosing that many maybe undiagnosed or unaware that they are neurodivergent or may simply not ever be invited to let staff know that you're a diversion. So, you know, you have to anticipate disability as an educator and it's up to us as individuals to educate ourselves about what that looks like and what we can do to make things easier for people who do do have Narada virgins. So when you're looking at accessing development and learning these invisible barriers are are very visible to the people. They're affecting but often completely invisible to those of us who don't have those same eyes to look at them with. So it can be really, very basic. Like if you have a slow processing speed for information, which is something that I'm struggling with. If you don't get materials in advance, you will be released. To keep up in class and it's just too much information coming far too quickly you can't process one thing. Here's the next thing. Here's the next thing you very quickly become lost disorientated and it you know, if you've gone through a school system that didn't support you or you've got that kind of stuff you're carrying with you - experience that you're carrying with you, this just reinforces everything and so that's a really easy one to get around because all you need to do is send materials in advance and then anyone who's going to be in your Classroom, they, and when I say classroom, that means any environment in which teaching and learning happens, they can they can look at that in advance. They have that option to do that or they can sit in the class and know that afterwards. They can go back over it and it will be there. And lecture capture has been huge actually in that regard, as well, other things that can be really complex. So we know that. So anecdotally, we know that disabled students, sometimes avoid particular types of assessment. That will actually limit their curriculum because they might be really interested in this subject, but hey, it's got a presentation and I can't do that and I will get a loan Mark, so I'm not taking that. So putting more flexibility into the way that we assess at University can really open open up modules to everybody because otherwise it is going to call to disadvantaged likewise if you struggle with essays, and that's the way that's assessed, maybe you will choose not to do that particular piece of learning. To minimize, what you know, is going to affect your mark. You notice that this is the reality. These are the barriers that we don't think about but they are very real for people who have that experience. We also have the fact to think that success in aichi relies very heavily on having good organizational skills having good communication skills and we typically have these very fixed formats of assessment. If you are not kind of providing enough support for people with poor organizational skills, They will struggle that's that's their disability causing them to struggle. That's the neurodivergent and that's the barrier there. Many people are excellent when they're planning for their students and they'll have a fantastic really and they'll have everything put in place and they'll be really clear enough session plans at the start of any session that they're running. These things are fabulous and make a really huge difference. So it is just about kind of thinking, because when they're not there, it can really be challenging. I'm so we've got also things such as neurotypical, ideas about group work, the in the importance of group work and also the importance of being able to give a live presentation, and these are things that are put in as their key employability skills, and that's not untrue. They are important for some types of employment. However, if we put them in as things that will potentially be a barrier to you achieving at University, that's limiting people's options. So, if we were saying to and Autistic student. I want you to do a live presentation. This is how we're going to assess this course. And that student knows that they will really struggle to present to live. I would suggest if they know that about themselves, that's going to affect their career choice potentially anyway. So if you give them the option to pre-record something where they have control over the environment in which they're putting this together, we're end product, will they share with anybody? That's the way that you really support them to succeed and the argument about this being important for their career is valid. But you know, you can succeed in careers by doing things your own way. And in this is, we have we have it from the other side. We have this idea. We, you know, we have this legal concept of reasonable adjustments. We will put an adjustment in place to allow people to succeed that applies at work as well. So if they're having a reasonable adjustment here that they can carry that through. So I think it just makes far more sense. If we are a bit more Questioning about what we expect. And so, not expecting every single student to succeed at group work. I'm I mean, I was in a session matter with you, not that long ago, we were talking about how, how students might work with some content in a session. Yeah. And I said to you that we are increasingly thinking about offering students, a choice of whether they, and when I say students, that could be the staff that I'm working with, whether people want to do a piece of work on their own, and then feedback or whether Want to work in pairs because if you're saying, you know, right now we're doing some power work at like you, you look at this thing and come up with some suggestions and then we'll all feedback. We've talked like this for years. It's a very effective way of getting a class to actively learn something. However, it's not an inclusive way of doing it because for some people that's going to go absolutely against everything they comfortable with. Yeah. Possibly against everything that they are able to do successfully and publicly, we're putting them in this position where they I haven't got an out unless they leave so it's a shock at that instruction called me through what they didn't know. It was going to come through as well but yes, be a completely through for an individual at the margin. Yeah. And again we hear and I don't want to suggest that all the autistic students have the same way of showing thinking but we hear from the autistic Community, it's really important to have everything known in advance and no surprises in the classroom because that's very unsettling. Sometimes can be You know, quite threatening environment, a sudden, you find yourself being. So, yeah, some of its about signposting but some of it's also about choice and giving students choice of how they choose to to engage in the teaching and learning, all we want is to support them to learn. So why not just give them a bit more choice in how they successfully can do now? Yeah, when we had the conversation that immediately changed my practice, I was delivering a session to a group of stuff on CV, writing an application for writing. At the gusev couple weeks after that and I immediately went to in my pre my pre-baby notes and might of the the materials that I send out beforehand and said he is materials. This is what will be happening on the day. This is how many breakout rooms will be having because it was an online session and these are the lengths of the breakout rooms and just. So if anybody just thought, you know what, that's not for me, then then that was fine. They could make that choice. Just like, just like you said. So yeah, that that's changed my practice immediately. That's that's pretty good for you to hear. I completely forgot to talk about any online anything and what we've talked about so far but yeah, I personally have a dread of Zoom room. That's I'll go in. I have the facilitation skills to be able to cope with doing it, but I hate it. And if all that is wanted is for me to do some thinking about content, before feeding back. Don't send me into a into a room with other people. Give me an option to go in at all. Or, you know, I think when we did our inclusive curriculum bake off, which was day, two of our conference last year, And we had some a hybrid. So some people are online and somewhere in the room with us and we did I think we asked them in advance if they would prefer their own Zoom room all by themselves so that we could have done that they could have just gone in there and then they wouldn't have felt pushed around your house. In fact, nobody shows that that's great. It's just about to change. Yeah, that's it. That's fantastic. I love what you're saying about choice and something that I've done recently is I run the learning and teaching fellowships for the University and I designed them to suit myself which involve filling in an application form, and, you know, writing a beautiful piece of narrative around practice, and it worked really, really well for me. But what I was Finding was only a few people would apply because I guess that form of assessment even though it's involving staff, worked only for a certain subset of people. So what I've done recently is I've given people options. So either they can write the application form or they can put together a pre-recorded PowerPoint where they speak over the top or that they meet with me and do a kind of professional dialogue and I found that giving people. Those kind of that choice as you're saying, in terms of how we assess them. As really opened up, those fellowships to a whole range of different academics from am Professional Services across the university and it's been really effective because I think sometimes we design for ourselves, don't we and what works for us. But we actually need to think about what you're saying in terms of Acetate and ensuring that, you know everyone can access what you're doing. That's really helpful. That sounds fantastic. Good thanks. Yeah, from my experience in Euro, Divergence is often seen as a disability particularly in the education system. And then if students move into higher education as well, rather than a potential assets and I was just wondering, how can we help change that whole narrative around this in our sector? Do you think so? That's a really tough. Tough question. So we obviously have the equality act. We have the anticipated. We do team towards disabled students to provide them with an accessible education. That's the legislative framework that were operating in. But as far as neurodivergent is concerned, we get conflicting guidance, which really isn't helping. So, we've had in recent months we've had from the office for students. This, this point about written English and the fact that universities must must be able to demonstrate that. The written English is an appropriate level to be awarding degrees. So they may lose their degree awarding powers. That is in direct opposition to stuff that's been coming through previously. Which has been saying, you know, we need to be enabling students, to succeed, and not putting so much emphasis on the written word. And obviously, we have reasonable adjustments, and you can put reasonable adjustments in place, and I'm sure if their academics listening to this, some of you will have your head in your hands. About what I'm saying, I'm not going to apologize. This is my view, it's a personal view, it's not a representative. Of the University. But I really do think that, you know, criticality and content other things that show, you know, where you're up to with your learning and whether or not it's fluently written, I think that needs to flex a little bit, but we're not allowed to because this guidance has come through and that's where we currently are. I think the guidance reinforces the deficit model that we're talking about, because it makes it kind of, it makes it an extra job for people who are working with students, who have a reasonable adjustment in, they have to mark, Is differently. Hmm. So that the reasonable adjustment is kind of is being met and the student is being supported to succeed supporting to succeed. Absolutely approving of that. So so when we look at trying to change this deficit view so that yes I'm going back on myself which I do all the time but that was the question, wasn't it? So it was about how we kind of how we started hearing your Divergence of something. We value. It really wanted to embrace mouth. Other than a deficit model part of this is the is in our day-to-day. And it's like what you've both just said about how you've made changes to your own practice. If everyone makes little changes based on what they've currently learned that already starts changing the culture. We start thinking about being welcoming and then those invisible barriers, perhaps they start disappearing and that changes the way that education feels for every single individual in it. So if we aim to normalize neurodivergent see and we aim to Respect it and welcome it. I think that's huge when you look at the kind of disability campaigning for years. They've been saying nothing about us without us, it's their massive slogan. I think that cements I think it's really important and I think it absolutely applies to any minorities situation. Actually, not just to do with disability that we shouldn't ever be kind of expecting some to fix something for others. It's something that we do together and we negotiate that Change together. And we're open about what's needed and what we're doing and how we're going to move it forward. So that requires mechanisms to make that work appropriately and I don't think that there are many universities that have those kind of mechanisms in place. We've got fantastic support for disabled students at this University. Brilliant team doing absolutely wonderful work but in terms of changing the way that everybody thinks that that's still too quiet if you like that needs to be Amplified that voice needs to be heard a lot. You know what I think is also really nice. Here, is that we do as a university, we celebrate things like World Autism Awareness Day or neurodiversity. A couple of is a day or a week, but these things are becoming more publicly celebrated within our institution. Certainly. And I think, you know that there's that's coming nationally perhaps slower than we would like, but it's coming and I think every time you you invite people into something and share positive stuff with And that that changes the way that people think, you know, and sometimes that comes by hearing negative experiences of people are really Brave and they're happy to share in the situation has gone through and then we learn from them as well. So, I think, I also think that the EDI benchmarks are going to make a big difference because that again, it's all about normalizing this. So it stops being some either, some extra burden, some Troublesome thing or something, that's different in other and it just becomes a Way that we think about things like you hear the kind of like this idea of 360 feedback but if you're looking at your curriculum in that rounded way, then you're looking at everybody and everybody's needs and you're trying to make sure that your curriculum is built to support everybody's needs. Yeah. Why you're talking them? One of the things that were running through my mind is say I've got a student who's got maybe was gone through the school system with an educational health care plan saves. A new Divergent student gets to university has Supported through University. Maybe he's a, he or she's at a great experience, the assessments have been authentic for them. It's they've had a good experience and then they get into an employment situation. One of the things I'm thinking, when you're talking there is society isn't really set up a z. So as soon as they go through that process and the supported to get into an employment situation, they might go to an interview and the first thing they're asked to do is present or, or even just the interview process. A sand itself where you ask questions on the spot and you might not be allowed to see the beforehand, all these things remediate barriers to employment. And I'm not asking you to provide me all the answers, but how do we prepare people for that type of situation or where their jobs just might be the might be inhibited to for them to progress in them because the institutions or the companies just might not be set up in a way to support people. So again that's a huge question is gonna get very good question. So when I have some personal experience with this in that I worked full time before I became disabled, then I got ill. Didn't know what was wrong with me, managed to kind of Limp on with work until we geographically located and then eventually I got a diagnosis but I haven't realized that it had cognitive issues as well. It's been my situation has to do with my balance and so I'd assumed it was, you know, physical stuff, not a mental stuff. I like then I was having a career break from a family anyway and then I was trying to go back to work exactly what you're talking about was what I was hitting the interview process you know I could do the form took me forever total nightmare but I could do the form but then it would be his, a task for you to do unseen or in his presentation for you to do and then unseen questions and my particular brain thing is that if somebody asks me a question a lot of the time if if you know kind of Of in greetings card shops or waterstones or whatever you've got those. There's card holders that about a circle that you can gently spin around so you can see like one and then move on to the next one. Imagine that that's everything, you know. And somebody asks you something and the answer is one of the cards but they spin they spin by having asked you that you've just got this rotational thing and your brain just panics and nothing comes out. I had a ridiculous number of interviews. I was good at getting interviews, could not get past them and it wasn't until I was open in an interview about the fact that I had some cognitive challenges that. I got my first job again and that just came because they ask me something. And I blanked and I thought I've no more gonna look incompetent. I'm tired of that happening. And I just said, you know, I've got some some problems with my memory so I have got the detail for you but the gist would be blah, blah, blah, and I got that job. And their first question and lovely person who offered me that job was, how can we best support you? I don't wear them. When and then coming here, I declared on my application form. And I said, you know, I have a disability and I asked whether I could have the questions in advance, which I got, can I asked if I could have longer for the task because it was alive, task to come up with a presentation which I also got in those two things put me on a Level Playing Field and then I then I got the job. So the the my situation is obviously very different because I'm considerably older if we're looking at people who have been through school and uh see plan that Pain doesn't help me this. Teardrops psychically? Yeah, they come here and they have to start reading navigating and you know they may or may not be very well equipped to do that going out into the world. There is support, I mean we obviously have the support that we have from our career service here which is fantastic. And you know there they are aware of this as an issue. They will have support in place for that. There are then other particular organizations that will support you if you have a disability and you're looking for work, but it's not easy. And then when you get to To work. You may have to ask for reasonable adjustments. And in law you can ask and some employers will be happy about that and some will really not be happy about that. Yeah, you know. So it's it's a cultural shift with I think I think the present generation just won't tolerate. This is a rubbish situation and they're just going to be really vocal about it and I think change will come from them and I guess some of it is reframing it entirely. As you were saying earlier. I've actually seeing Euro Divergence as an asset test. Yeah. And not a deficit and I think your example that you've really kindly shared with us is is really helpful because you are fantastic at your job. And yes, some tweaks needed to be made for the interview for you to evidence that. But you're a massive asset to that job far more than anyone else who hasn't got the experience that you've got. So it's about removing some of those barriers. So the people who are neurodivergent can actually fly or what? They're doing. I've got friends who are who would openly say that their neurodivergent they're fantastic at their jobs. I couldn't do their jobs because of the way that their brain is wired, it makes them brilliant or what they do and that seeing them as an asset in that role, I guess, rather than as always defaulting, to the deficit, model of how they're going to cope in the workplace. Well maybe they'll do better than the rest of us in the work place as long as we don't put barriers in their place. Yes, no, absolutely. And that reminds me Something I was going to say, actually, about the curriculum again. So we have in CIA group work contract. So if you're doing group work with students and you want your groups to be off to a good start with hopefully working in Harmony and building on each other's strengths. Exactly what you just said, Alex then the group work contract can really help you with that. It's it's a conversation starter between groups. So each group sits down and they talk about things that are really good at things they perhaps are not. So So strong at, and perhaps somebody else in the group will take on that role and it offers that exchange of who is excellent at what, and when how together we all combine to kind of do really well. It needs a little bit of planning, it needs to be done within a classroom environment I would say. But it's it's it's a first step towards recognizing different skills and different values and being gathered. They all combine. Yeah. So, talking of the curriculum, I guess Universal Design for Learning comes into this and you've given us plenty of suggestions already. Actually, you know, we're just talking about things around interviews and and so forth. But what suggestions would you have for developers or lecturers to ensure their development activity or teaching is neurodivergent friendly by default? So I think one of the main things actually is there's a lot of talk around safe spaces at the moment, right? We hear it. Kind of used a lot. It's over Saturation point and all this kind of stuff. But essentially in creating a safe space you are trying to create a space where people will feel open to be themselves open to express their views and support it to express their views. It's important to be clear that I as an individual, cannot make a safe space for you map because only, you can decide if the space I've created feels safe to you, but I think as academics we can absolutely attempt that And say, you know, I would hope that as a group. We, you know, we set an intention for kindness that phrase comes from my colleague, Joanna. Cheatham who is lovely and very, very good at all this stuff. So if we set an intention for kindness in the dialogue, that we have with each other, we accept slippery language. We accept that, you know, we may use terms that are perhaps expressing values. We haven't realized were not values that are very appropriate and we will help each other. Learn that things are not being said with like, A negative intent and also that as somebody in charge of that space which you are. If it's if it's your classroom that you're ready and prepared to handle anything that comes back and really scary, it's like opening Pandora's boxes in it, you ask a question, you've got no idea what perceptions are coming back. But I was speaking to somebody recently, who was saying that there was an example where somebody that had shared a view in a classroom environment about trans. That was directly relevant to what was being discussed. And it was shared, I think in a poll and it was ignored, the member of Staff didn't pick up on the fact that this thing had been shared and that student who have shared it, you know, bravely anonymously but really bravely. I, I think we have to be really careful that we are supportive in these safe spaces on everything that comes. And so if we don't know and, you know, if something comes up and you think, oh my word. I've got no idea. How do I handle that? It's appropriate, just to say, it's really good to see that we have. Somebody talking about the trans experience in this situation, and I'd like to thank you ever, put that up. Let me first, acknowledge that you've made it. Clear. And you've made everybody aware that this is here, you know? And so the same is true of, as I say, any minority sized individual, what do you think about the, the learning resources, the materials that are put out by lectures or developers there, anything that you think? We could do, which changes the default of those materials that make them a bit more friendly food, neurodivergent people. So, we've already talked about a lot. I think about things like for example, the session plan, yes, I think is huge and sending them out in advance in terms of making them as accessible as possible. Some people will grow and I'm going to say the word we're talking here about digital accessibility. That's really important. You know if you have created a document and you've followed the guidance for Accessibility that means it's optimally created. If somebody wants to listen to it rather than read it if you've used back your headings rather than Bolding your headings or italicize in your headings. And so on a screen reader will be able to beat that out loud or software package, will be able to read and they can get the structure of a document without having to go in and start wading through pages and Pages. Yeah, that's good advice and I see so many documents that don't have that. Yeah, it always surprises me these days like he's just used the style and we're just hit the style button. It's there and it's just familiarity isn't Yeah, everyone is so busy and digital accessibility is like uh, heart sink, another and time. Trying to figure out its little changes that make a massive difference. The other one may be less important now, but there was a lot of conversation on one of the lists and part of last week about the background color for slides and the fact that, you know, white on. So black type on white background is really difficult for quite a lot of people, it's easier if you just take that, Contrast down a little bit by using a slightly colored background or a dark gray, instead of a black font. However, there were disagreements about that as well, in terms of what was best practice and nobody came up with a solution on that list to what was current best practice. But students if they're looking themselves will have me. I have on mine, I've got a tint. I just always have a slightly orangie screen and that for me is absolutely perfect. I'm going to I know we're going to mention resources potentially A bit later on. But I am just going to sign table. If you're listening, we have on the CIA website, a really good video about inclusive presentations, and that covers everything you would need to know about digital, accessibility really there. When it is just great. So, One of the things that I was involved with a few years back, was an e-learning offshoot from from local government and we created about 15 hours worth of e-learning aimed at the Children's Workforce, which will could be every anyone from a social worker to lie. Partly they deal man and we created all this e-learning and we try to find the most friendly font possible. We pick as comics And, and it was the worst mistake we could have made to know. Yes, it's lovely to read. But the complaints we got about Comic Sans and because it's like, childlike people were saying, you know. So, you know, we're working with with children. We're not the children with some of the complaints we've got. So it is, it is it can be a bit of a Minefield content because Comic Sans is a good font to use for readability. It is, I think it's recommended by the dyslexia. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, but when you put it somewhere, it's universally hated. So, you see, we spent a lot of money on a lot of time, changing every single piece of font to Century Gothic as a result of that feedback. And it's something that will stay with me forever. I think because yeah, I was the one involvement in into it and I think the feedback that you got was really interesting. This idea, it's infantilizing. I think that comes from really. E- experiences. Do you know what I mean? People thinking. No, give me like a grown-up even though it's it is a recommended font. I personally, as I said, I really hate it. I like Korea or aerial that are just really plain and then the sand saref as well. So they didn't have to carry this because issues for people who have dyslexia. So yes, one of the things the map that you mentioned is Universal Design for Learning that's a fantastic basis on which to build include Asian really, really good. So, for anyone who's not familiar with Universal Design for Learning or udl, it's it comes from architecture, the idea that you would design a building, that would be accessible. So, where we have ramps instead of steps, that's an example of Universal Design. When we look at learning, it's about designing out barriers, which obviously, we've been talking a little bit about already, so if you're looking at udl in a little bit more detail, it's about offering Choice. That's the heart of udl. It took about multiple means of Engagement which is where you give your students, the choice and autonomy about how they participate. We already talked to you in this idea of whether people work by themselves, or whether they work with others, for example, and then also preparing students in advance, we talked about that. And also things like making sure students know, they can step out if they need to step out there can be anxiety about what will people think if I step out. But if you've said at the start of anybody just needs a couple minutes just go ahead. You know that just that you've Except grown will wear them kind of invites. Everybody to be comfortable in your in your setting. When you look at Learning Materials it's about it says multiple means of representation representation. Here is the way that the materials are represented like text or images or whatever, it's about a mix. If you aim for a mix, that will be really helpful because that supports all different strengths. If of of the students that you are teaching, it's also something that that Now, I can really help with so Blackboard La if you're not familiar with, this can display certain content in different ways. But students mostly won't know that that gold I can do this. So if you say somewhere in your vle or you could say in the classroom, you know, but if you would rather hear then read Blackboard and I will be able to support that for you. It's just it's just those that are things where you just underpinning, the choice in, giving the agency to the students themselves sending materials around him. Advanced. We also talked about anthem at your lovely example about any questions. You can ask in class, send those around to because those are the things that cognitively challenged people in a very short, constraint time, frame, and can really cause problems and finding multiple means of action and expression. So whether you're talking about diverse ways to contribute in class, which might be that some people will contribute verbally. But I also offering poles so that people can have a choice, if they're not comfortable speaking out in public and also that you consider your Divergence when Can anything a classic example of this? Is when you see like a live poll that's a quiz and there are out there, I'm sorry. I'm going to make people groan again but there are. There are some that kind of / pretty colors and timers and all this kind of stuff in the fastest answer wins, that's terrible. Because as a newer version person, you will never win, you know, right? If you have a processing issue, you will never win. You will never be quick enough to read. Think find the 8-bit to press press and pass in. So that's just reinforcing your own potential feelings of deficit. So yeah, just kind of thinking a little bit about that and then assessment, we've talked about choice of format. So really important, again, Kate that's been fantastic and so interesting. So thank you so much. This podcast is called the developing practice podcast, and we love to finish each recording with three or four take home tips that our listeners can reflect on in terms of their own personal perfection. Practice. So if you could give us a few tips, what would they be? Okay. So EG is a journey. It's not something that you can kind of quickly get your head around, and it changes all the time. Practice recommendations, change all the time. So one of my top tips are think would be. If you can, please try and block some regular time for an EDI catch up in your diary. So maybe you do it before you start a semester, maybe you do it after you finish the semester. I put a little bit of dedicated time for you to catch yourself up on all things, EDI and look at your own practice and think, what can I do better next time we'll what unexpectedly worked really well and what can in share with colleagues past the information on that. The one thing because it can be quite overwhelming to suddenly get all these new ideas and suddenly maybe realize that there are quite a few things that you wish you had been doing differently and you want to change, it might help just a narrow, it down a bit and look at 43. Most apps for quick wins that you can do right now. Perhaps based on something you've heard today or something else that you know you've encountered recently, write them down and see if you can Implement them. That's a start just get started. And finally, I think, if you in your context, can provide an opportunity for all students but, you know, also, including neurodivergent students to let you know, how you can best support them. And then, share what you learn along your journey and don't expect your neurodivergent. Students to educate other people. I think that trying to get that dialogue, going and learn and you make this upward spiral like kolb's learning cycle, that it starts with asking. The question offering that space for students to come back to you and then building on what the experience has been. Really thanks for your time today cake. Great to have you with us. Well, thank you very much. Well, I really appreciated what Kate said about how education is usually designed by neurotypical people for neurotypical, people with no questioning of the Norms, that underpin that we need to be aware of this. And instead, and sure that we're design learning experiences for all Learners, not the few, by removing the barriers that Kate spoke about Yeah, Kate spoke about how we need to normalize the conversation. And I really appreciated that the ADI benchmarks will help us with this. And so, instead of Designing learning for all Learners being a Troublesome burden, which is an add-on, it will become a normal way of Designing learning experiences that supports, everyone's needs. And for me, I think that's what this is all about is thinking about how we can do that. If you want to take your thinking further, we've added some resources to the website on a specific, Podcast reading list, which you can access at Liverpool ac.uk, /the hyphen Academy forward slash podcast. And these include some of the excellent resources that Kate and the center for Innovation and education. Have designed including a brilliant video about inclusive practice that Kate's colleague, Joanna Cheatham has created. Also we love to know what you think about each episode. So please do tweet us at live uni Academy and you can also find us at e-learning at or at Alexandra underscore Owen on Twitter. I'm really grateful for those who have either taken the time to rate or review, our showing your podcast providers up. So, if you haven't done so already, please do take the time to review our show or even better. Just simply share the episode with friends and colleagues on your social media.