Craig Ferguson

- Guys, hi, it's Neil Brennan. - This is the block shut up. - Oh, no, I'll just stay out of it. - I thought you'd forgotten my name. - No, it was Johnny Hilt. - Please, I was trying to remember the name of the talk show. I remember the name of the CNN show. This guy is, my guest has a new series called "American On Purpose" on CNN. - I want to show you why I became American on Purpose. - He used to host the late late show with Craig Ferguson. - Ladies and gentlemen, Craig Ferguson. - Have you figured out who it is yet? Guys, please clap. It's Annie's a fucking really funny dude and a very instantly charismatic charming guy. Instantly, we have a rapport, I'd say. - Oh, I think so. - I think you have a rapport pretty easily. You're pretty slutty with your rapport if I'm honest. - I suppose I have a little bit, but I'm rapport equal opportunity rapport. I mean, I rapport with anyone who rapport back. I think rapport is a two-way street. - It is, but you have chemistry with most people. I have chemistry with a certain kind of person. - I don't know if that's true. I, because I think you are very attractive both on the podcast, because what you, and when you do your stand-up, you're very, you look like someone who knows what they're talking about, maybe it's your glasses, but I don't think so. I think it's, I think it's you. But even that, people don't like people who look like they know what they're talking about. - I do. - I know that's why I say, I have rapport with certain kinds of people. If the person respects someone who looks like they know what they're talking about, then we're fast friends. - Right. - If they're, most people don't like that. - They don't like that. (laughing) - I don't have any friends, so you'll have to tell me. - I believe that. - I don't, I really don't. I keep my friends to a very, very small group of friends. - Let's just get into the podcast. Why? That's his first one. - Well, I've been like friendly to like small people, so I think I don't have small friends. That's so stupid. I'm sorry. - It's fine. - You know what I mean? - I might cut it out. - I might give you a lead. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, 'cause a lot of people would have turned off. - I did. (laughing) - I got ticked. - Oh, fuck, I'll wait for someone clever. - Okay, so you, a small friend group, a minor, no new friends, what's your, what's your feeling? I think that you are more opinionated and more irritable than you let on. - Oh, 100%. I think that's absolutely, that's very astute. - I look opinionated. You look affable. - I do, I do affable because I grew up in a very violent situation, no at home. I mean, my family weren't violent to me. But the. - Wait, say, what do you mean to you? They were violent to neighbors, to pass by. - No, no, no, no, I didn't, I wasn't raised by a crime family. - Well, I don't, I don't know any generally. - I genuinely don't know, right? - No idea. - I was raised in, in Scotland, in the late '60s and '70s. So, or the '60s and '70s, really. And it was a time where I was raised was very jumpy. You know, there was a lot of sectarian hatred between Catholics and Protestants. - Right. - It was kind of adjacent to the troubles in Ireland. There was a lot of that stuff. - Troubles one of the greatest terms, names for conflict. - Yeah, violence. - So fucking Irish. - Yeah, correct. - Well, it's a wee bit of trouble. - Which wee bit of trouble there. - They're killing each other. - Oh, it's a trouble. - You know, there was the story. - Let's not make a big deal of it. - This is true. A friend of mine told me that she was a funeral for an IRA soldier in Belfast. And at the end, you know, the funeral part of it is the shoot. You know, you get the salute with the guns, and the Friday gun, and somebody had fucking pigeon. And it landed on the coffin. And the priest, the priest said, "Well, sure, the pigeon was involved." (laughing) - You used to see that about something who was in the part of the-- - Part of the troubles. - Yeah. - He was a fillet. - He was involved. - He was involved. - Oh, that's very funny. And so you grew up around violence. You grew up in a violent time and a violent-- - You grew up ahead of it and the actuality of it. And so what do you do as you-- - So is there violence in your neighborhood, in your-- - Yes. - Read my school. We had a, they had corporal punishment at schools. When it was outlawed just after I dropped out of high school. But corporal punishment, just in time. It was outlawed by the European Court of Human Rights. That's how far they had to take it before they get rid of it. But they used to belt us. They were very, very young. I mean, I'm five years old, I'm talking about being thumped by a thick leather belt. It was specially made for the purpose. You had to hold out your hands, and they would just-- - This is Catholic school? - No, it's a Protestant-- - Well, state school. - Right, okay, so it's a state. It's a Protestant state school. - It's a Protestant school. It's the government school. And it was-- And there was a lot of kind of-- I would think, I think of it as normal, like pushing and shoving and violent with young men. But I don't think it is that normal, really. When I've talked to people who grew up outside of that, they did not grow up with violence between young men. I think of it all-- Like my oldest son, who's 25, grew up in California, I would be like teaching him how to box and stuff. And he's like, "Dad, it's not Scotland." - This is for to burn calories. - So I can have a beach bar? - But I was like, "No, I'm gonna keep your left up." And all that kind of stuff. He's like, "What are you talking about? I'm going to art class." You know what I mean? - We live in Brentwood. - Yeah, well, almost, yeah. It was in that-- - Westwood. - Yeah, there you go. (laughing) And it was, so it was a kind of-- You develop a people-pleasing thing. I think that's right, to say that that affability becomes a useful tool. - Do you think a lot of scots are like that? As a result? Because it doesn't seem-- You seem, I will say that the scot comics I'm aware of and know are really, really affable. They're really like fun and like they can make small talk and it's very charming and moms like them and girl. Like, you know what I mean? - Depends on what part of Scotland are from, to be honest, 'cause I'm from the West of Scotland, which is, I mean, my grandparents are Irish, you know? And so there's a kind of difference between the East and the West of Scotland, weirdly enough, it's 45 miles from Glasgow to Edinburgh, but there's a world of difference. And the-- - So is it, the West is more Irish, do you? - I think the West is more Irish. - And would you say put it on a darker, is it a darker note? - I think they're all pretty dark. I think the whole thing is on a dark note. I think anyone who does stand up as a darkness, anyone at all, I'm talking anyone. - I completely agree. - The most, like, you know, affable, lovely-- - Louis Anderson was the best-- - I knew Louis, yeah, that's, yeah. There's a lot of darkness in the night. - I can't stay long, I'm in between meals, so bear with me. - Okay, so you find yourself affable as a survival mechanism? - I think that's fair enough to say. I think it was probably developed. I genuinely, I'm not looking for trouble. - No, you know, I mean-- - But you know how to, like, you can-- - I can hang. - You can hang. You can give somebody a real good three, four minutes. Most people. - I think so. I think what it is is that I also developed a lot more through Peter LaSalle. Do you know who Peter is? - The producer. - Yeah. Peter-- - He produced the late lecture. - Yeah, he had produced Letterman. - He was the legend of that kind of thing. He had produced Johnny Carson for 35 years. - Oh, right. - He had done Dave. - Yeah. - And so the way of what I learned from Peter, just about anything about any kind of performance or just being active politically, and bound politically, I mean, you know, in life, in show business, he was a real kind of Mr. Miyagi. For me, I mean, he really turned me around with all that. - And what, when you say that, what do you mean? - Well, he's me. - 'Cause I'm fascinated. - He was the guy who grew up me into late night, right? - He, like, found you, so to speak. - Sort of, yeah, I'd been a guest on Craig Killborn's show. - Mm-hmm. - And I had just been, you know, dicking around with Craig and just talking and stuff, and-- - What were you doing work-wise? - Uh, the Drew Carey Show. - I hereby join you in Civil Union. - Hooray! Time for the honeymoon, dear! Oh, thank you, Kenny. I'm finally an American. I got wait to get fat and buy guns! (laughing) - Oh, right, yeah. - That's awesome. - That's what I thought. - Okay. - So, I literally was like, I knew you were doing some I didn't know what it was. - Yeah, I really ended up independent movies and stuff, and working as an actor and writing, and then I never thought about late night, late night such an odd thing to me, because I never had any, I didn't come to it the same as anybody else. To me, it was like being a fucking realtor. You know, it was like-- - I don't know if you're not from America. I'm Trevor Noah, I had the same reason. - Right, Trevor, you told me this briefly as well. It was like, oh, what the, you know, I never really got it. Like the dayification of it. - Yeah. - I was like, man, it's a nice joke. - Well, I have some good news. It's over. - Yeah, what? - It's a fit, a couple of weeks from now, if not already, it's over. The dayification. - So, it's funny, 'cause I get asked about it, although I get asked about late night, I'm like, I am uniquely unqualified to this last late night. I never watched it before I did. I fucking didn't watch it while I was doing it. - And how about now? - I'm not interested, so it's like, I genuinely know less than just about everybody. - Yeah. - So what a Peter time. - But Peter had a man's moral authority. And it was very important. I grew up, this is a kind of conversation. did way of explaining Peter to you, but it's important for me to understand that Peter's alive now. He is. He's very, very old. Okay. But Peter was a Holocaust survivor. Peter was a concentration camps when he was a young adult really, he was in there to use it at 15. Peter was at the same high school and was at the same classes and Frank. And I mean, it was, it's like, you know, when you complain about, oh, my childhood in Scotland was, some people were emotionally unavailable. I mean, he could really take control of that for me. Plus, he had such an understanding of how to survive in difficult situations, given this difficult situation that he, the first one he approached. And he would say some very interesting things. First of all, about late night, he would say to me, you're in somebody's house, don't yell at them. You know, don't, don't shout and stop that. And then he said to me, within my first two weeks of doing the show, he said, you know, you've got a creepy laugh. You went, yeah, you got to stop doing that. And I was like, he said, look, I, I love you, but you got to stop doing your creepy laugh. It's creepy. Was he right? I don't. Yeah, I think he was. I used to go on the kind like that. I don't know, I think. Yeah, I had to alter my creepy laugh or something. Yeah. And I did. I really, I was became very aware of it. I stopped laughing in a certain way on stage. And he would say interesting things about jokes. When I hear people getting in trouble for things they've done, and you know, I've certainly been in that category as well. But Peter would always say, if we, if we had a joke that we'd done on the show, someone had had led something, which was nearly every night, because we kind of worked in that way, he would say, if we were going to cut a joke out, I would always kind of go, no, we have to leave a joke in and Pete would always say, isn't it worth it? Is it not good to joke? Yeah. And the answer nearly always is that's not that good a joke. Also, like, what's the reward for the best joke? Yeah. A laugh. You know, that's it. Are we going to plan it? And okay, now what's the reward for a mediocre joke? A laugh. Pretty much the same thing. So it kind of, my, I can kind of draw a few lines that my life when things change. And this is not in chronological order, but Peter is definitely one of them, where, you know, the world pivoted for me a little bit around this individual. And there's a lot more affability after Peter. And is it so much? Are you glad for it? Yes. So it wasn't a adjustment, a professional adjustment. It was a, maybe, but, but yeah, the, the unintended consequence was like, you were changed. Yeah. I think that's right. He, he would see as well. He said, the best thing you can do. And he said, when I was trying out for the show, you know, I was just like, taking a round. That wasn't paid much attention to it. And he said to me, I want you to take this seriously. I remember the first time I met him, he said, I want you to take this seriously, because if I'm right, he said, this is what he said. He said, I have very few discernible skills, but one of them is finding people like you. And if I'm right, you're lightening in a bottle. So you must pay attention to what I say. That was like, okay, crazy old man. Oh, and it just, it sounded so unlike everything I'd ever heard in the business. You know, it was like, it was so cinematic. Yeah, it's very serious. It was crazy. It was like being in a movie. Yeah. And as you say, and, um, cinematic, like being in a movie, exactly. Um, and, and so I, it kind of landed. And I thought, I'm going to listen to him. How old were you? I was 42. Yeah, because that's the old, you're old to be like, look here. If I, it's like something you'd say to like a young female. Right. Exactly. I wish that man when I was young, but I didn't listen to him when he was young. And it was funny because I remember I was 42 at the time. I was 64 now. So the idea of I remember like some NBC executive at time saying, I were not worried about Ferguson. He's too old to start a late night show. I'm like, am I? I don't know, but I was 42. I don't think that's too old. And it did well, right? The show? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Right. You were on against Conan. Uh, yeah. We were on against Conan for like four, five, three, four, five years. I kind of remember because I like Conan. Oh, it'd been even a lot. Yeah. And then Jimmy came on and he was doing that. And Jimmy moved up when Conan moved out. And Jay and all that mass. And then, uh, and then I think I was still there when Seth moved in as well. I mean, I then they came and I did it for 10 years. Yeah. And did you like doing it? I did. I liked it for a long time. And then I didn't, I liked it because I was, I was, it was possible for me to hide. And what I mean by that is what was this is like David Letterman owned the times law. Mm-hmm. Fit like, fit like, not physical, but like he owned the rights to the he physically owned the times law. I know, but it's, you can't own time. So what? No, he that's why he's got a deal since he got up here. He owns time. Fuck. Yeah. No, he's amazing. No, Dave owned the times law because of the deal that he made. Yeah. He got to decide who would go on out. Right. So CBS didn't pay any attention. He owns part of the C as well. He owns, he owns time. And the wind, he has a small piece of wind. Yeah. And, and, and you remind some of our conversation, about 40% of what we were talking about is owned by Dave. Fine. And he thought it out. Have it. Yeah. But he, uh, he wasn't paying any attention to me. He was doing his own shop. Yeah. So nobody was paying any attention. When I figured that out, like CBS weren't really giving me notes. Yeah. And Dave wasn't giving me any notes. And I thought, the only people that are watching this are people. It's a bit of like a foreign embassy in like a peaceful country. Like, it was just a weird piece of no man. Yeah. And, and so I knew that my tenure of being able to do whatever the fuck I wanted ended when Dave left. As soon as Dave went, the, again, the wall comes down and those fuckers are coming for me. So how long was it seven years or something that you've been doing? 10 years. But you'd been doing it. When did Dave leave? How many? Dave left. He left six months after me. See, I tried to leave after eight years, uh, because I thought Dave's not gonna do this much longer. And then they came back to me with a deal that was financially very difficult to. Sure. No, too. And so I, I stayed for another year and then there was another year. And I said, I really have to go and we made a deal and then Dave decided to go and so all kind of slaughtered then just. Got it. So it actually you so once he was leaving you knew like, oh, they're getting. Let me leave. Let me get good. Yeah. I'm never gonna survive once Dave's out of the way because he would have survived. But it would have been like under somebody. He would have been like a lot of things I didn't want to do. Yeah. Uh, and whereas I had gotten a good 10 year run of that show, working with the greatest producer who never worked in a late night television. And nobody else given a fuck. Yeah. You know, and which was fantastic. Yeah. It was just a gift. It will never happen again. And I realized it was a moment in time, which of course Dave owns, but the it was just a moment and it and it was over. And I had to get out before they turned it into something that I didn't want to do. And also I styled 10 years. Well, it does it feel like Groundhog Day those shows. Yeah. Because I, I'm friends with some people have shows like that. And I'll have dinner with them. I'll go, who's on the show tonight? And they'll be like, oh, I know. I have no idea who that happens all the time. I watched, you know, that, uh, there's a documentary about Leonard Nimoy called Becoming Spock. It's a beautiful. I never watched it. I was beautiful. You should watch his side. Okay. Well, it's more of a tribute kind of thing. Yeah, it's, it's a gorgeous thing. It's just very, very nice. And I watched it and after I said to my wife, God, lovely man. Well, I should have had him on late night. We looked up and he was on twice. Finally, I'd met him. Yeah. I thought only I'd met him. I thought, and it's so weird because, you know, things will come up from that show. I mean, I was at the upfronts last week in New York. And there was a lot of famous people around and I kept having to Google them to see if they'd been on the show so that I didn't see it. And you did, like, hold still so you could do the Google image. No, no. I knew who they were, but I had to know if I'd met them before. So I had to Google their name and my name together and see if they had been on the late night show. And some of them. Okay. Well, this leaves into what we're talking about, which is, so how do you feel about human relationships? Meaning, because I realized something about myself recently is like, I read into, I think all these relationships should be deep and long lasting. And I've come to the conclusion, like, nope, they're not even supposed to be that. Like, you know, it work wise. I'd always want to like, let's all get bunk beds. And we're going to hang out and we're going to, and it's going to be like, I watched the Martin Short documentary on Netflix. I haven't seen it yet. And it's just all home videos. And it's all the cast of SCTV and Tom Hanks and Steven Smith, and they're all, like, jet skiing and they're not, they're water skiing and Steve Martin. And it's like really sweet. And I'm like, that's what I thought it was going to be. And it's not, it's never been that. It was not that for them, either. I mean, well, I know I didn't want to be that cynical, but it's no. I mean, you've run it enough for these guys to know that, you know, it looks like that. And it is like that sometimes. I mean, what I think is interesting is, you know, that's why the green rooms and the comedy festivals are always quite interesting because it gets to be like that for a minute. You get to, but I didn't, I didn't go on a stage on my own because I wanted to hang out with other people. You know, I went on stage on my own because I was, I'd been a drummer in bands and I fucking hated guitar players and drummers. Well, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't mean any drummers, but I hated guitar players. and bass players and singers because you had to deal with these fuckers all the time and when you were working on your own, this is you. I mean, I don't even have a warm up, I do it myself. I don't have an opener, I go out and do it myself. And you would do the lights in the sound, because I'm the audience some nights as well. I will be honest, it's just me and I name it as well. It was inevitable, ultimately. But you know what, you find out all of it yourself. You find out what material. Yeah, what do you do in the comments? Well, as it turns out myself, but I think that it is like that. It's collegiate sometimes, but ultimately I think it's. I didn't have the experience of being from a big family. So I thought like, "Oh, it'll be like a big family." And it's not supposed to be a family, but I just trick myself in thinking that it would be. Do you think sometimes this is a product of age? I used to think people were, you know, people were out to get me sometimes in the competitive world of show business. And I, it was only fairly recently, I'm talking in the past 10 years or so, I realized nobody's out to get you. They're out to forward themselves. They don't think about you at all. I think there are people who momentarily will be jealous of you. Oh, sure. But like, it's anyone who doesn't realize that it's golf is like you're playing the course. It's not like, I don't. if I think of a joke, it doesn't. somebody doesn't not think of a joke. But you know that thing, Gordvi Dalsen, it's not enough that I said so that my friend should fail. Yes. There's a little bit of that. There's a little bit of that, but I say I wouldn't argue with age. That goes away. It goes away, because you just, you realize like there's no correlation. Yeah. So the demystification of what it is, is one of the things I'm very grateful that late night did for me is that demystified fame and success and to a large extent money, look, I'm not against money. Money is great. If you've not got it, it's just a worst, but it's limited in what really it can do. And success and fame, kind of the same I think, that it's great to have them, but you know, that lump's still lump. Yeah. So you know about my lump. You have a lump. I'm actually, I didn't want to bring that, but it's kind of obvious. Yeah. And that it is comforting and like also like being hot, being less hot, being hot, that's like that's very weird because when you get one of the most cynical things I ever had was the best time to buy a house in Los Angeles was September because everybody who gets their pilot picked up buys a house in August, it gets canceled in September and they have to sell their house. So you get, I mean, it's horrible, but yeah, that's what that's how it dealt our real estate empire. That's how I made my money. And how do, okay, so we're, we're jumping around, but so you, so friendship, you just, your wife's your friend? Oh, but I have a couple of close friends. I have a couple of friends I've had for a long time, I have a buddy of mine who I met. My buddy, John and Scottish guy, I've known him for 34 plus years and we've been friends all that time. And I have friends from back in the day and people I'm always happy to see and friends who, I like to see, but people who I hang out, hey, do you want to go and hang out? I don't think I've got any of that. Do you agree? Yeah. Well, once you stop drinking, not drinking is a big, is a big like say goodbye to 90% of social engagements. Well, it's different. I mean, all right. Listen, I stopped drinking. And a lot more meetings than I've been going to before I, before I, I'd, I'd stop drinking, but the, it becomes different for sure. This episode is sponsored by better help. Come on. Come on. Come on. You know, they should all be. It should be, they should, I should get two better help ads of a show. I feel like I've seen podcasts that have that. Anyway, I don't want to compare if that's what I'm using, so what I'm talking about in my therapy. It's, you've, I've talked about better help forever. The fact that they keep advertising tells me that you guys are using it. And I also know people that have used it, you know, when people used to be ashamed that they met on a dating app, they'd be like, we met on, and it's like, who cares? This is where we are now. People really like better help. You can check it out for yourself at betterhelp.com/reviews to see amazing customer views in real time. 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I'm an old, I'm 80, what I'm 87, so I know a lot of old phrases. Start building. This is the call to action. Everybody shut up. Start building a smarter picture of your health with super power for a limited time. Our listeners get $20 off to unlock their membership. Head over to superpower.com and use code NEAL for $20 off your $199 super power membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about super power, tell them blocks with Neal Brennan sent you to support the show. And then if somebody says why he looks so good, be like blocks with Neal Brennan, that's the promo code. It doesn't end when you leave superpower.com. I was mystified when I started drinking because. When did you start? 1992. For what reason? Alcoholism. But like bottom Peter and Sally. No, I hadn't met Peter yet, but I felt his presence. No, I think it was, there was a number of different things. The one that I've talked about in the past is, I woke up one Christmas morning and I was on my way to commit suicide, which felt like a very rational thing. I mean, with the interesting thing when people talk about it, there was no dramatic music. It was like, "Oh, you know, this is what I should do." It felt like a rational thought. You know, what I should do is. When you say on your way. It was Christmas morning. I had woken up in a pub. I meant to get home at Scotland. The pub was in London. I'd never made it. I didn't embarrass myself, you know, it was a fucking mess. It was terrible. I hadn't got home to my family. And the normal hangover is exacerbated by the deep and profound shame of the alcoholic having to hangover. So you've got that spiritual high over and that. And so what came into it like a very clear thought in my head was, "I must go and kill myself. I must go and jump off Tower Bridge. That's what I must do." I was in London. And Tower Bridge is the big fancy one. You know, if you're going to do it, do it right. So I'm on my way to. I'm about to leave the pub. And my friend told me who had slept behind the bar. No, I don't know. That same night or just so much. That night. He'd slept behind the bar. He was the barman. I don't know if he was an alcoholic, but he's slept behind the bar. So he was an Irish guy. I didn't want to tell him I was going to kill myself because I knew he'd make it fast. So I said I'm just going back and said well before you go have a glass of sherry for a Christmas morning and I said alright so he poured me a venty sherry like a pint glass with sherry I don't drink sherry and we both had a glass of sherry and we toasted and I said baby Jesus and he said the infant Christ and we drank him and as I drank the sherry I forgot to tell myself I felt great and it wasn't until years later well maybe not that well maybe a couple of months later when I was in rehab I reread the story of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and it's a fascinating written by Scott Smith of course because it would have to be it's a fascinating look I think alcoholism amongst other things because in the story Henry Jekyll the respectful doctor drinks the magic potion goes out he commits a murder and then he is back in the park and he's he's still sort of Mr. Hyde and he wants to be Mr. Hyde he's Henry Jekyll but he kind of looks like Mr. Hyde and he has to get into his house because he knows and of course his servants wouldn't let him in because he doesn't look like him but he knows he has to get into his house because he realizes the potion that turned him into Mr. Hyde is the only thing that will turn him into a fucking Henry Jekyll again and it is that thing is the only thing that made me feel normal was the thing that was killing me and that's a fucking finger trap and that's really hard and it's really hard to figure that out especially when you're in the emotional and mental turmoil yeah and you don't know that you know you know you're not aware of it and you're not and you didn't have any you didn't hadn't read any of the literature on alcoholism so I look I bounced around it a little bit I just sniffed around I figured there was something wrong okay it had been noticed by other people yeah but false it had been noticed by false friends and family anyway the the but it when it occurred I mean there was no cognitive kind of all this is what I'm dealing with this is what it didn't feel like any of that the rational thought was I must destroy myself and then the alcohol went on top of that and I was like but why we can stay here all that yeah and so the thing that's killing you is also the thing that's keeping you alive that's a fucking conundrum yeah and it takes a long okay take the alcohol away then you have to realize why you're why you want to destroy yourself yeah causes and conditions I think I think you have to I I think in order to for me look other people like some people get sober going to the church and they find Jesus or they find science or they find something but what I'm saying is the way I did it isn't the only way to do it but I feel like in order for me in order to to get and remain sober I had to take an inventory of myself from as far back as I could remember and look at the times where things that I that had brought up feelings in me you know they're maybe getting beaten up at school by these masochistic teachers or other stuff that I had no control over but I certainly had an effect on me but here's the one thing that I really like about about this is that alcoholics of my type in recovery or the people that I kind of hang with they are willing to be the villain of their own story and I think that's very important so you look at yourself and you go you know who was it fault there me I was a dick there I need to not be that I need to change and it's it's tempting when bad things have happened to you to say well it was all that and certainly that that wasn't your fault if bad things happened yeah it's not your fault for a certain point but there are other times then maybe a bad thing happened to you and then you did a bad thing yeah and that is your fault you know the bad thing that you did is your fault you know and bad it's such a relative term but you know if you what were your what were your I was a I was a singer and a and a fighter and a and a pub man I like to be in the pub singer why do you mention singer well because we sang you sing and then like you sing at the like at the bar like hi hi hi hi yeah so that's like and how what's that a five six hour night oh yeah five five six day night you know you can you can go with that with the right crew you can keep that running also you know and then at some point if you're in London some one of these London media guys gonna say oh you want to try a little bapakau kind and then suddenly you're like oh I can you say a London media guy oh yeah you know those are the types oh you're doing I've never done I've only done cooking once oh really yeah in New Orleans Columbia with a guy I don't know one of my co-cane journeys one of my spiritual co-cane journey I actually heard one today that they I swear to God a couple hours ago that they did a Xanax journey so it's actually in really interesting and I need to like listen to it again somebody gave a bunch of people maybe ten people Xanax and they had like musicians playing pleasant music and they're all on mattresses so they did it like an I want to think but it was Xanax and people had spiritual transcendent experiences which you know what he used to call out where I'm from go ahead apart yeah there you go yes no but you guys didn't have that many mattresses though everybody didn't get a mattress not in one room Craig I'm not fuck off that's how we live everybody left in one room are we all gathered around the potato so so you would you were just it was like fun it sounds like it wasn't fun it was fun there's a great old I mean that's that that's the other confusing thing about I thought I was having a good time a lot of the time so it's confusing but there's a great old it's an old Irish doggo thing about you know so we shared another night of poetry and prozes but every man knows he'll be alone when the sacred gin mill closes and it is a there's a weird kind of they probably can't keep going and then you're on your own and there's a some weird about that I don't know I can't fucking explain how cold is I'm gonna have lived on both sides of active and no and I I'm as mystified by it now as I was there but I do know one thing which is if I don't drink it it doesn't stop right so it's connected to the first drink if I that I'm convinced of yeah the the first drink is the one that does the damage after that you know someone else is driving but if I can avoid the first drink I can avoid any drink just the just is it a daily thought meaning it was for a while but it's not no I don't think about it that might be known again I think it's been 35 years pretty much yeah so it more more of my life than sober than drink it twice as much so it's what I do but every now and again you know it comes up more more with smoking though interesting I have more I have smoking dreams I like smoke I would smoke so long ago and I'm still would do it I'd love to it gives you cancer though and that's why I don't I'd say I've said this before have you looked up what amount of people get cancer from smoking I don't want to because I would say it's it's you want a moment to tell you yeah 10% 90% of people don't you know do you know who I what percentage I'd be on though of course well you're special yeah I'm special you're so special you guys see this fucking guy this guy so special as they say in the I just don't feel like I get way with anything do you know what I mean I just don't feel oh the the 12 step term is terminally unique but but it's it but I'm surprised you haven't heard it and I'm surprised you have but also I have a lot of situations where I'm like now that was I shouldn't have gotten caught or I shouldn't and I did like some anomaly some and obviously we're both you're landing in a bottle so you get it like I never said I was like in the boat peel the Sally said I was like right but you are landing it outside is what call you landing a bottle I don't think you were walking around thinking that I thought you were like I'm the tree thought you wrote some kind of lightning but not a bottle oh shit I thought I thought at least I was just yeah yeah so you're getting laughs at fucking Drew Carey that we wait you were getting laughs on every line every every line's I wasn't no setups so you can I'm with you with like no I'm gonna get I don't know if that's even a negative thing or if that's a corporal punishment corporal I got my there was a lot of hating and you know I went to Catholic school not so much hitting there but there was at home a 110 and you are you a Catholic yeah that's interesting to me I grew up Catholic you're not Catholic you're apostate I'm I'm I believe in a central creation force but not yeah yeah me too I'm fascinated by the idea of a god and a creative force and the universe and all of that but I I have a hard time with ritual and particularly the thing that that troubles me a bit with Catholicism is all the imagery I'm like I can't can't keep up with all that but a lot of Catholic it's all like parable cinematic universe it's just like I don't or no it's Star Wars is a better analogy because Star Wars is gonna put like grog who what is that I gave up after same like I mean that's the some really good ones though the some really great saints there are some I love of course but it's they're they're deep cuts they are deep cuts I went to France's of a Ceci's at the time and the actual yeah yeah and you know what I thought because they have his cloak and all that and yeah in bits and his glasses and everything I was like this reminds me of the hard rock cat I was gonna say playing Hollywood yeah no it is it's all it's all like flex same plexiglass yeah they lit it tie they top lit it do you know what as well I have you been to the rock and roll fan no well I have because I know Drew Carey and it's in Cleveland so I went to the rock and roll fame speaking of drug ceremonies go ahead and no maybe ham ceremony but we went to the whole roll of them walking around and one of the exhibits they have buddy holly's glasses and I was like wasn't he wearing them I have a question yeah yeah exactly I'm like I don't think that can be true yeah well if you're not if he has more than one pair yeah but he was sponsored by Warby Park so this was the 50s yeah you probably had two pairs yeah I it doesn't don't you you're not supposed to think about it all right well I but I'm with the trouble is I'm with the also like so they went to the crash site I mean that all of it's bad I didn't ask they they didn't I've also been to the aviation museum near the crash site where they did have debris in Iowa that's one of those things we go uh do we mean is well are it is it I like aviation museums so it's it was it's an aviation museum and the crash it's not a museum dedicated to the correct no no okay so they just have it like all this nearby yeah yeah they needed they got some money they're like how do we expand this museum uh go to the crash site you're already way deeper into than I've arrived I was a tour and I saw the site no I can I already I was like why you go to museum because on the road yeah he's on the road because he's on the road and he doesn't drink yeah but that's right so you see a lot of the museums and I I love them I love I like I'll go on a tour into flying I started flying because I was terrified of flying Kurt Russell had been on the late night show and he he's big aviation mm-hmm and that doesn't surprise me no yeah meaning like just like what's masculine yeah he doesn't pretty masculine yeah and you know he he said you're you're not trying to fly and you're just a control freak I went oh yeah and he set me up with flying lessons with this guy and I learned flying it turns out I am a control freak so I got a pilot's license I did I went all the way through it and is it easier to fly now yeah yeah for it's easy to be a passenger yes yeah I know what the problem is and and it's not what I thought it was what is it ice is what it is ice and bad pilots that's what the problem is so it's rare you know so it's immigration okay so it's ice ice on the wings and and bad piloting in the face of ice most in general aviation usually it's continued visual flight rules into instrument flight conditions that's usually what it is which is with the John F. Kennedy thing where you you're not qualified to fly in the conditions that you flew into and you should have turned around the comeback always that what happened with him I think so yeah he got spatial disorientation because he wasn't quite I know it was fog but I didn't know he wasn't supposed to fly he wasn't qualified to fly in the conditions that he flew in got it got it got enough training here I thought it was a magic bullet guys you know why I stopped doing a podcast I like that the thing I just said may remind you why you stopped doing a podcast because I I thought about this it was a Kennedy thing right it was two reasons why I stopped doing Fox one of them was the look of hoarder and anticipation whenever I run to people I know and they I see in the faces them thinking I see going to ask me to be on this podcast and you know what I'm I stopped a podcast forever and then and I think about stopping this one no I know this is a good one thank you no not you you're you're it looks good on you you're still got a lot of that show business on you yeah but the thing was I was doing this podcast and I got tired of looking guess so I was just doing on my own yeah and I was just talking on my own to the and one day I was talking I would be watching that show about John F. Kennedy and Carolyn Bissett you know the oh so this is recent oh yeah and I was watching the show and then I was talking about it on my podcast which is basically talking to the phone and I thought I wonder if a Kennedy has ever been eaten by a shark because you got to figure out the way life goes for the Kennedy's does yeah at least one of them you would think right yeah and I started to think about it on the show and the podcast and then I was talking about that then I stopped tonight when away and then I thought I'm gonna stop doing that podcast because that idea was a Kennedy ever eaten by a shark is actually a piece of stand-up that's not formed and I gave it away too early it's not it's not ready it's a and I started I do that a little bit where if you do that too much you it's an idea about something I don't know if it's about Kennedy's and say there's something there's some kind of joke laugh thing and yeah but it's not ready yet and I just muse the boat it and threw it out and now I can't really do it but maybe I can in a different way you you're to quote Jerry Seinfeld you know who's senior act nobody senior act you know and to paraphrase again you know who senior podcast absolutely nobody senior podcast but I would also say you know who sees what you've done everybody everybody you're both right but you enter especially the stuff you go that's the one that's that's the one that goes viral all right so we have addiction we have I'm these are Jordan Jensen's blocks that Craig I like Jordan and I thought we probably have a little blocks and come okay magical thinking this is a this a new one because I'm this is this is a no one's pitch this before and I it's I think it's a it's a quiet killer well I I don't know if I'm correct in my definition of the magical thinking for me is for example I can't wear anything brown on my body higher up my body than anything blue on my body because then I've everything's upside down and trouble is coming so this is also one of Jordan's that we didn't get to on her episode OCD yeah I think I don't know if it's OCD or magical or if that's the same thing or or if they're sure they're really are there have any of these superstitions or whatever one of all these these spells have any of them come true no I'm not to my knowledge but I can't say that they haven't either because I don't risk it do you know what I mean yeah once it comes in your head I don't I'm not and they come in your head for no are they the same five or it's just I mean that that kind of shit comes and goes all the time I like for a while there I go into reading a law about pre-church Christianity in the Egyptian desert and the second and third century the desert thing we've all been there here go ahead yeah you know there's a bit of stand up for you origin of Alexandria Evagrius of Pontus Augustine of Hippo really and of course would that be St. Augustine St. Augustine yeah and he became St. Augustine right of Florida and the and St. Anthony I mean you mustn't say Anthony right who went and lived in the haunted fort and then moved to the cave because too many people were coming to the fort lived in a cave for 30 years all of that became fascinating to me and I and I became fascinated to the and it's it's true these people are yeah they're real people yeah origin of Alexandria was actually very interesting guy because he was ex-communicated after he died like the years after he died he was on the way to St. Hood and then he gets ex-communicated because he was one of the guys that said you cannot see an image of God there can no be no image of God that's not a thing that can be and of course if you're they're like we have all this merch we got all this merch you can't sell merch if yeah if it's all wrong so yeah shut the fuck up so he got into trouble but he was dead so maybe that was a big deal maybe it wasn't who's to say yeah but I get into all that and there was a thing about apothea I think it's called in Greek it's the idea of constant prayer constant prayer for and and for a while there I was trying that there's this the I can't remember who is it the prayer is Lord Jesus Christ to have mercy on me a sinner that's that you just repeat that and repeat it and repeat it and for a while there that was him I'm not even a Catholic it was like in my head I was like I would say it all the time and I got fixated on it but it's gone and you don't know why left you know why it came because I you know I wasn't getting enough sleep but it I'm I'm interested in other people's struggle to Define their existence I whether they lived in Egypt in the second century or have you ever read? Soren Kierkegaard uh-uh fabulous readable my issue with the guys like that are just like you look man I'm interested. No, he's not show up on her. It's don't be German. No, no, no. He's he's He's Danish. Okay. Danish Christian existentialist very Tough on atheists, which is I enjoy Um, and then he does this in a he's got a book called I think it's a book fear and loathing and he tells the story of Isaac, you know, Abraham and Isaac like five different times from five different point He tells a story from Abraham's point of view from Isaac's point of view from Isaac's mother's point of view And he looks at it and looks at it and looks at it and goes around it and compares, you know Isaac carrying the wood up the mountain for Abraham to Christ carrying the cross and marries them together And I'm like, oh my god, this is fascinating. Yeah, and and it is fascinating and it's so deep It sounds like a it could be a bit like a good comedy bit. Yeah, I mean, I will be honest with he's not that fun Not fun premise wise could be a like can you can make a I've heard people try but at least do bits or try bits about about that. I've feels like maybe you know, like an old male Brooks movie or something like that. No, but just like Kill me your son and the what like whatever you can get there, but Or Rashomon or like so. Yeah, I'm that's what I have always admired about you is that like oh this guy likes I think like introspection is a bit of a genre Yeah, and this guy likes introspection. Yeah, like I like it. I like it people like when I like might some of my specials are that and like that's the thing people go Oh, this guy does introspection. Yeah, and that's what Do you think you're always like that? Do you think or you're you're in these kind of violence situations or sobriety? I think sobriety is connected to it because you start questioning everything. What did you find getting sober? What did you find because you said it was conditions or or whatever causing conditions? I don't know Because it's in conditions of of how you get there. What did I find? I guess Fear I think there's a lot of fear And you minute to minute were experiencing a lot of fear as a as a young person. Yeah, and I and I think that It's a child I experienced that a lot and it was it felt like it was part of me. I you know, I felt like it was Um, but do you realize it or when you look back, you're like, oh, I was afraid the whole time. Well, that's that's a hard thing because a lot of the times when I think fear you you know, you try I don't know if you do this, but I think I do this I dress up as like Banger or you know something like that or or maybe I'm just hungry, you know, but I I don't know It comes in so many different forms and and so many different shapes and sizes and moods. I'm not sure that You know people will say things like that you know When did you know you'd made it in show business and you go that's not a thing Yeah, you don't make it in show business when did you know you'd conquered your fear of A B or C like yeah, I that's not possible. Yeah, and to my mind I mean maybe it is for some people, but my the way my mind works is you know, it's ready Well, it's all conditional. It's all yeah, you can it'll come back. It's like a it's like an appetite or you know It's like it you can have all of it back. Yeah, and I think that there's choices that you make a long way to try and cope and beyond Besides drinking how would you cope with fear do you think I mean you said anger or Hungry. Yeah, I don't I don't know if anger actually does any good. I think that with fear Control seems to or at least the illusion of control seems to help So the idea of so I probably I'm a control freak the the the illusion of control Russell was right He's always right. Don't you get it don't you get it? Yeah, of course You know, it's funny when the when he did that movie when he played Santa Live and impersonate One night only when Netflix. I was like man He must have a lot of money to play Santa They're like hey card you want to play Santa go fuck yourself. Yeah, it's a trillion dollars. Yeah, okay. Oh, oh Guess you know, I've been in New York a lot recently and like the last year and I've been ordering a lot of you know You can get greasy vegan food. You don't think you can but you can you can do you can be vegan and still be gross about it But which is why when when our sponsor today cook unity came back I was all too happy to like get get on board. I was using them when they weren't a sponsor That's how thirsty and sad I am Then I'm like no, I don't need I just like you guys whatever we can work out on arrangement They came back so I guess I manifested it you got meals from Michelin star chefs James Beardwinner's food network stars All right, so basically they have a bunch of you can go by protein you can go by gluten-free you can go by I only want chicken. I only want steak. I only want fish. I love pork. I only want a glaze It's like the key it's really optimized a good really good website and then certain chefs will specialize in like in Mexican or Italian or Scandinavian or Ethiopian or Japanese or Chinese or whatever and you order specific things from them It comes in a real well show in the video comes in a real nice Slider paper thing so you know it's not plastic. You're not eating microplastics They had a tofu curry. They had a chickpea curry they had Every day had really good pasta that was vegan. They had just like really good stuff for me And that was only like I was using about 10% of the menu and it always tastes good and by the way the vegetables were not sad You know you and most ordered vegetables or sad. These are happy vegetables taste what happens This is the call to action Taste what happens when real award-winning chefs make fresh small batch meals just for you go to cook unity Dotcom slash NEAL or enter code NEAL before checkout to get 50% off five zero percent off your first order That's 50% off your first order by using code NEAL or going to cook unity dot com slash NEAL Even all right, so week one you're gonna be you're gonna you're robbing the back right week two You're still gonna be robbing the bank because it's never expensive and it's always good Trust me and they by the way, it's not just dinner. It's breakfast. It's everything snacks cookunity dot com slash NEAL 50% off by Playboy hunter summer wardrobe game. That's pretty good. 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That's B-O-N-O B-O-S dot com back slash NEAL for 25% off and make sure you use my promo code NEAL So they know I sent you bonobos. You got this. You're gonna you're good. They're legitimately good. 25% off. Come on I don't know I don't know how you have you it changes fear changes. I change and I change from day to day And you get older and stuff. I think the the thing I like about people that are sober is that they um is that they accept the complication of being a person. Yeah. Like, like, and you just like, like, okay, you just accept, you're just like, okay, this is what it is. What am I going to do now? Yeah. And what can I do? In fact, if I can do anything, I'll do it. If I can, then that's what I'm going to have to do. I'm going to have to be not doing anything. Don't just do something. Sit there. You know, I mean, it's like, sometimes the none you can do. And that's so you can do. And I guess there's, that's a big lesson. You know that, but, you know, it's funnier. Every time I have a conversation like this, which isn't that often, but every time you have a conversation, when you talk about big things, the things that, what's funny is my algorithm is a tune to it. So I think I get all of them when you have these conversations. I'm like, Oh, so I think that's all you're doing. I don't know you're talking about. It's like when your dog thinks when you go out, you go to the dog park, you're not going to the dog park. You fucking idiot. Why don't you take me? I'm a dog. But it's, um, when I think about these things, I, you know, it, it's almost a little bit like the weather. I'm not entirely sure how it's going to be on any given day. I mean, make a prediction. If I do this, then it'll be like that, but not always. Yeah. And try to be happy. I think it's okay to try to be, I'm not happy all the time. I think people who are happy all the time are terrifying. I don't, I don't know how that can be a thing. That's like clones. Um, that's, that's a worry. Yeah. I, life is moods. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's moods. It's different things. And how do you, are you, how are you as a dad? Well, you're asking the wrong guy. Well, what do you think? Can you try my best? I, I, I, I hope I'm a good dad. Are you a dad? Uh, get in there. It's complicated. It's complicated. Okay. Oh, so you can ask me the demon. Yeah. You're a guest. You're a dad. You're a dad. I pay for the studio time. So I asked you what, I asked you questions. Yeah. No, that's fair. Um, that's fair. I'm not. Is $7,000 an hour too much? No, no for me, buddy. So, so yeah, like, how about husband? How about, did you meet your wife after you got sober? Are you? I go, I actually got married and divorced sober. Oh, and I got married again, sober. Great. So the wrong dog to try. Most of my life is being sober. So I mean, it's a, how am I as a husband? I, I hope I'm a good one. I try to be, um, I, um, a father. It's really, I like, I like being a father. I tell how many? Two, two boys and I, 25 and 25 and 15. Correct. Scottish people every 10 years, like the big orchids in the jungle, you know, they just, and then everybody gets pregnant. Correct. I mean, if I go off now, then you'll be a father. Great. And a mother. I, I don't even know what's happening. Um, and, and are you better from the 25 to the 15 year old? Or is it you just, with kids, you just have to like, it, it's another thing where it's, it's a horse that you're just riding. Yeah. No, it's the, they're, they're them. They're their people. I'm not, I'm not under any illusion that they belong to me. How much guiding can you do? Do you feel like it's like supervising a, because I wonder about that. I wonder in terms of child rearing and it's on your mind. Do you really, it's coming up? Well, no, I, I, I was thinking about it today. Um, I, I just think about what, how much I've had friends say my kid came out fully formed. Like it's, that kid is the, the 23 year old you see today. Yeah. He was like that from the, or daughter is from the minute I saw them. Yeah. And, and is it, can you affect it? You know, remain like, I don't know, because it's a modern, I don't know. Yeah, modern parenting really seems to think they can affect it. Modern, a lot of modern thought isn't that modern and isn't that great. Uh, I, but most of it isn't that modern. That's the most of all of it. I've become from, when you say not modern, what do you mean? Well, it's based on an old idea. Everything is an old idea. Yeah. You know, it's like pretty much from top psychology as is at this level is pretty new though. I think it's new in the way that McDonald's and Burger King are new, but food has been around for a long time. Yeah. A different way I get in it. And some of that in that, in that good, but it's still quite tasty in places. What about the idea of hitting kids? That seems to be like, that was accepted. That was the thing. Yeah. That was out of fucking line. Yeah. That's terrible. So the, the, the idea of not hitting them is clear. I don't think that's an, I don't think that's an old part. No, that's pretty new. You're right. And, uh, yeah, because I think I grew up when that was, it was still okay to hit kids, but it's not okay with me. I don't, I don't, I wouldn't like it. Um, actually, the order of one, I actually posted them. Not me in my ass. Yeah. And, and, and so it's, you're almost like a supervisor. How did you see it? Do you see it? I was like, you can really mull these kids. Do you, did you have the Peter LaSalle moments with them? Because it, like, Hey, look, actually, no, I don't, I don't, listen here. I see, I don't think that's what parenting is. Uh, for, for me, anyway, my take on it was, uh, keep you safe and keep you, uh, fed and keep you clean and keep you from being scared. Uh, moral guidance. Moral guidance. Yeah. Yeah. I guess this is what I think, you know, but other people have different ideas. I mean, yeah, moral guidance. Of course, don't do that. Yeah. Stop it. Yeah. Yeah. Don't poop on the floor. For instance, that's, that's daddy's thing. But the, uh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's too big a thing. I mean, it's, it's not like, I don't think there's a one thing you can say, but it's like, so what about music? Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's enormous. Yeah. Um, it's, it's, there's so many different aspects on it. It's overwhelming. It's different. It's, I think the one thing, I do remember about it thinking, and I still think this is true. The, when you become a, when I became a parent, I don't know if this is the same way for everybody, because I'm not everybody. I'm me. But when I became a parent, I feel like I went from being the star in the movie of my life to a supporting artist in the movie of someone else's life. Yeah. And it was one day I was standing. It was quite a long time ago. I was standing outside Gelsons, and, and Ellie. And I was with my oldest son who was about 15 at the time. And this young woman walked by and she looked to him and I saw them looking at each other. And then, anyway, there was nothing, there was nothing in it. Just two young people looking at each other. And then she went away. And I realized that she didn't, she hadn't seen a guy with his son. She had seen a guy with his dad. He was the guy. And I was the support and player. Yeah. And did you, how'd you feel about it? Okay. All right. It's okay. I've done a lot of supporting roles. I'm, I'm, yeah, you were fifth lead hunter care. Not even six. I'll have, you know, you know, but just, you noticed that he knows what number he was. Yeah. Oh, you know, you know, the first not far down the Colchie. Know is that if you're number six in the Colchie, you know, you know, you're number seven. Every man of every man. And this is the 90's. They let you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of pay, there was, everything was locked in. You knew what you were going to make the minute you got the pilot. You, you don't hold out. And did you? Okay. So, so yeah, because a lot of people don't like it. A lot of people don't like being, some people say I liked that it wasn't about me anymore. And then I've also heard people say I, I don't want to have kids because I wanted to be about me. It's a choice. Yeah. I like to know I've kids too. I mean, I, I'm not one of these people who say, oh, you got to have kids. You don't have to. It's up to you. Yeah. Sometimes. I mean, true. I mean, it happens the way it happens. And what do you, what's most of your time spent on? And I don't even mean like, what are you doing? What are you feeling and thinking? It's the broadest possible question I could ask. And I thought as a talk show host, you would appreciate it. Yeah. Um, I never thought myself as a talk. No, I know. I know. But, but it was interesting. And what's funny is the more you go on the, the less I'm like, he was not, I didn't realize how funny you were because you were made me laugh. No, I, then I would see shit. I mean, like this fucking guy is quick. And, but I didn't think you'd be that quick because I cause of that job. You, everyone it does, it's pretty quick. Mm-hmm. But you're very quick, I would say. So, so, yeah. So, anyway, so what do you spend most of your, I'm going to ask this in a rather bleak way, but I think it does answer it, which is if I couldn't do anything, but right, I'd be fine. So I think I have to, for some reason, for whatever reason, for ever and pulse I have, I need to tell stories. When I was drunk, I told stories when I was sober, I told stories. How I stay sober is that's tell stories and hear stories. You know, the idea of, you know, I'm Irish in Scottish, I, you know, my people tell stories, we make shit up, you know, and, and it's poetry usually and and songs and And so I feel like that That's where I live in most comfort is in some in the either the creation or the absorption of fictional or partly fictional worlds and the truth is the older I get I think a lot of this shit is fictional anyway and so that I Kind of I think that's where I Live I think yeah most of the time it well, that's the other thing is your your your you have more depth than a Talk show host general. I mean again not like Colbert and these guys are shallow, but like you you You know maybe it's not But like you're and again, I don't you also it's just a part. It's a fifth of sixth of your life So like yeah, but it's just how for for most of for other people. It's not 80% of your out, so I understand I understand but so anyway, but I like I like the deep part. That's the part. I like so that's what I'm I'm curious about I think that the the trouble Sometimes I think if you do a job that becomes very identifiable Is that old joke? You know you fuck one sheep and you're the sheep. Yeah, you know I always that you host one talk show. Yep, and you're the sheep It's like you do a thing and everybody likes that thing or wants that thing and I like that thing and wanted that thing and I'm proud of that thing and And I'm I mean no way dismissive of it at all, but there's other things, you know, and and I really there were times doing the talk show You know, we I had this skeleton sidekick, you know and careful Somebody asked me one night about why do you have this guy? It was someone a show business har har question Yeah, what you gotta do what's with this guy and I said I think I think it's the mocking presence of death Reminding me that this is transient. It is my triumph. I am Caesar. This is my slave and I can see them like We'll be right back. Yeah, yeah, they cut to the commercial break. That's how bad it was I think but the people that connected with me on that show and still connect on that show because it still runs all over the place on the line and stuff The people that connected with me on that show they know That that show I used to say this over and over again in the show. This is not a late night talk show I'm not a late night talk show host and there's very few guests that actually picked up on it But there was one I remember and I was we don't see idea on everything, but it was remarkable It's about halfway through the interview and we're just dicking around comedy comedy and It was Ricky Gervais. Uh-huh, and he said Hang on a minute. This isn't a fucking talk show. I don't miss it. Yeah. No, it's not Congratulations. Yeah, and he got it. Yeah because he works in improvisation and he works and it's not it was like come and improvise Let's see what fucking happen. Yeah. That's what that show was. Yeah, so was it a talk show? I guess people talked Yeah, but was it that? No, because I'm not that I'm talking about The I'm interested in the party that wants that the spiritual part of What you're doing. Yeah, even what you are what you're what your essence is. Yeah, what do you think it is because I don't know Let's talk at least you talk about me for a while Don't be flippant. That's defensive I'm well, I what's it when I it feels like something there's something I feel like there's something about time with you and about There is not about death and about connection and fucking around yeah, and there is like a little sadness to it definitely and Times a good one time is you know what time you're right about time here's here's an answer. You ever ran any CS Lewis? I haven't because it because it's like it feels to Christian and to but I'm sure he's a Christian if you don't like I'm good. I mean good you can go deeper GK Chesterton Okay, who is like kind of his Origin story if you like for CS Lewis. He's pretty good on this, but but CS Lewis does an interesting thing talking about Because I think GK Chesterton as well was like this. It's she wells was a big atheist You know socialist you have to say someone with a full first name Herbert George great. Thank you. Go on. Herbert George Wells was a I think Harry I don't know how are you good. Well, it's definitely HG like hey, how you thought he's doing. It's me HG Wells But HG Wells and GK Chesterton were friends. Yeah, and they were used to have arguments about Christianity And you know ones in atheists and ones of big Christian apologists and stuff like that But one of the arguments I heard which I love was the idea about time is The the idea of the evolution is somehow the theory of evolution is Somehow negates the idea of there being a God and I'm like I it doesn't even doesn't even touch it I don't know why anybody thinks that yeah The idea of the if it takes you know 50 million years for something to happen in the terms of the universe That's yeah, it's a second. It's nothing. Yeah And so the idea of we measure Time by our lifespans or the lifespans of our civilizations or our families or and that's like we measure You know, we kind of up to 10 because we go 10, you know, it's not really a thing. No, it's the right amount of it's the right amount of things Yeah, and I think that I think there are so many Ways to look at the world There are interesting and many of them encouraging Because I spent a lot of time putting I think we are drinking the way I drank as a you spend a lot of time in despair For you're in this trap. You can't get out. Yeah, it's keeping me alive is also killing me Yeah, there's something psychedelic about yeah, you're like living in this Anomaly or this concert this some netliminal space. Yeah, I think that's right I mean, I found weirdly enough. I took acid a few times. Mm-hmm. Maybe like 15 to 30 times entirely sure And I didn't care for it at all. I did not enjoy it once and it's kind of interesting because But I didn't take it the right way, you know, I if there is a right way to take it, you know I'd certainly didn't do it by a river, you know You didn't do it with the mattress. No, I did it after 10 paints again It's in the griffin, which is a pub in Glasgow, which you know, it's a completely different area but the The idea of of it's weird enough That's the way I feel about life. It's weird enough. It's like I'm bamboozled by it and And sometimes it's too much like the when I was talking to you about Kierkegaard the feeling loading book I've read halfway through that book the reason I brought it up is because I'm in it right now I can't take it too much. I have to put it on leave it alone from I was like, oh shut the fuck up. Give me a yeah I need can fall it or something. Yeah, it's something else, man I mean I like it's like a Bodice river or something. Yeah, like I can't do all this. It gets too big. Yeah, and acid felt like that for me. It's like oh too much That yeah, but I think that's what I one of the things I like about you is that you are like openly not even struggling just openly like aware of Scope the scope of just like all of these things. I know that you know that thing when you And I've noticed that a lot with comedy has comedy has this It happened to quite a few times when I was doing the old late night show. It happens a lot when you're messing around with other comedians that you guys hit something. You don't know why it's funny, but it's so Like weeping with laughter over and I mean, I don't even think it's just comedians. I think everyone says that but That is magic. Yeah, you know or like when you're on stage and you hit something. Yeah, and I don't know where it's come from and it's a you know, and I remember once Stephen King was on the Late night show once I was talked to I said if you ever studied the Jungian theory of the collective unconscious And he said, uh, no, I never heard of that. I was like what did you ever you know the the red book Do you have a copy of the red book that the the thing young row this master work of Like drawings and running writing and on jivers. I have no idea what you're talking really And he said no, but I remember when I was he was writing the shining when he was getting sober And he said all these ideas were around in my hand And all these ideas and that was like and that's when I asked him over the collective unconscious and he said no Never thought. Yeah, no. Yeah, it's he is it. Yeah, I think so, right? I mean he had Stephen King Say nothing of his writing. We were when we were doing Shapel show and not aired And we were doing a thing of segment called ask a black dude where Dave would just went on the street and said Are there any questions you like to ask a black person, right? Steven King walks out of a restaurant and we're like what and Dave any like agrees to do it. I guess he'd seen Dave stand up. Mm-hmm. And his question was black people want to go to black denison to black people want to get buried by black on your takers and the minute I heard that it was like this guy is so fucking Intelligent yeah and curious and like the scope of that question in a split second He maybe he thought about it before but that's to me. It's like one of the most impressive It like speaks to the voluminousness It's amazing. I saw him in a documentary once he was talking about some stories He said about his neighbors and stuff that and he said my neighbor is a doctor And I he thinks I'm a little strange because we were talking one day and I said doctor. How much of a person could a single person eat of themselves before they died Well, I had an idea for a story that it was a man trapped in a desert island and there was running water But no source of food and eventually he starts to eat himself. I don't know if he ever wrote the story I haven't read it, but you know he starts with a tow and then a foot and all that and he eats eat himself It's like I don't know how you I don't know how you walk around with that. Your head. He seems quite a he's a real regular guy I've got a couple of friends like that who write dark dark stuff. Yeah, and a very upbeat there's a Scottish crime writer called Denise Maynard She's a brilliant writer as a friend of mine and she writes terribly dark crime More and over. She writes a lot of different stuff but crime dark crime novels markers and horrible things and she's the most upbeat lovely cup of tea woman. You have ever made life separate. It's just office hours the darkest people have ever met People that write romantic comedies like Like Hollywood romcoms are the dark in dark and what way? I don't want to give names. No, I got but I'm like people who are like man, you are That's that's dark in the sense of unhappy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, cuz they're caught up in trying to get romantic comedies Yeah, you know, it was a thing in the 90s. Yeah, but everybody had to make them. I like I think it's more healthy now People make horror movies. I think it's better they're cheaper. They're they're actually more believable than In many ways. Yeah, what do you do is a horror movie where someone meets a killer clown at the top of the Empire State Building? I said at first my idea you paid for the studio. Okay, let's split it. Oh You let me have it. Thank you. I haven't finished. Yeah, wait. Do you see the treatment? Site-uncene I was talking to this baby over there. I'm telling you a couple of they meet a crazy killer clown on top of the Empire State Building. Craig Ferguson is he is who we thought he was But they are who we thought they were and we let him out the hook. He's a charming guy who can get To the he can go to the he can go to the depths It's got a scuba suit. He can get deep But he can do he'll get up do a funny thing with the water when he comes when he surfaces Right, that's about adding yeah part jokes and philosophy. Yeah Craig Ferguson I'm I'm I'm thank you for doing it Pleasure. I wanted to do this for some time. I'm I actually you know in show business when they say I'm a fan. Yeah. Yeah, well I'm a fan. Thank you, but in the sense of I'm a fan like I don't have pictures of you up in my house around like that I don't well than what then what are you fan isn't like I like I yeah good. Well, I mean, that's about all we go for yeah I'm like oh that guy's great. Yeah, let's say it now like respect, but yeah, yeah, the This is a separate thing. Do you have pictures of your accomplishments up in your house? In that great thing about that. I'm just starting to realize like someone in showbiz did this Yeah, and then everybody else was like I guess we're supposed to do this It's like no, man. You don't have even in my office. No, no, no, I got I had to put we moved house recently and I I got Some Emmys and a P-Body Award in the cabinet and the guest bathroom But in the cabinet so the people can't see it. Yeah, unless they open it So you were gonna get drugs where you go for my auntie's fuck you the alarm goes up Craig Ferguson. Thank you, buddy Everybody who goes to heaven goes to heaven free