Could Your Marriage Survive When Life Falls Apart? | Wife School #4 Megan Basham

I went in and got the colonoscopy and I wake up and they come out and not only do I have cancer, I have a very large tumor. What did cancer expose about your marriage that an ordinary, comfortable life may not have revealed? As a wife, I think if you're in a good marriage, you always count on this person to protect you and to provide for you. And yet, here was something where my husband's coming with me, but he really cannot save you. All he can do is sort of hold my hand and encourage me to trust in the one who can save me. (gentle piano music) There are some marriage vows that sound almost poetic on your wedding day because you cannot yet imagine the price you may one day be asked to pay for them. Insickness and in health. We say those words surrounded by flowers, champagne and everyone we love. But what happens when insickness stops being hypothetical? When the future you assumed you had with your husband and children is suddenly replaced by survival statistics, treatment plans and the terrifying possibility that you may not be there for the milestones you have always pictured. That is why I wanted this conversation to be part of our wife school series because wife school cannot only be about becoming a good wife when marriage is romantic, comfortable and fun. It also has to ask what it means to remain a wife when life becomes frightening. When your husband cannot fix what is happening and when you are forced to depend on him and when covenant has to hold you together after your sense of control completely falls apart. Today's guest is Megan Basham. She's a reporter for The Daily Wire, a frequent contributor to Morning Wire and the author of Beside Every Successful Man and her best-selling book Shepherds for Sale, how evangelical leaders traded the truth for a leftist agenda. In 2024, Megan was diagnosed with advanced colorectal cancer which was ultimately classified as stage four. Watch this episode on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or Culture Apothecary on Spotify. And please leave a five-star review if you've been loving the wife school series and tell us which has been your favorite. Please welcome author Megan Basham to Culture Apothecary. Before we talk about what cancer taught you about your marriage, take me back to the beginning. When did you first know that something was wrong? Early in 2024, for sure, kind of late 2023, I had started having some digestive issues and actually they kind of went back more mildly a little bit before that. And I had thought, maybe it just happened because they took my gallbladder out. But there was a number of things that I just kept going, gosh, something seems to be wrong with me. I mean, at one point, even probably in maybe around 2020, I was severely ennemic to the point that I had to go to a cancer center to get infusions of iron. And I remember at the time asking them, should I, I'm getting these infusions in a cancer center, we don't, we really can't figure out why I'm so ennemic, do I need to be concerned that there's some sort of cancer relation here? And they very strongly, without testing me, without doing anything, told me, no, no, you're too, you'd be too young for that. No, it's not that. You just a lot of younger moms get severe iron deficiency. So I did these anemia treatments. Probably in, it was March, it was early spring of 2024. I actually went to the emergency room with such severe bowel cramping that I thought I was going to die. Like we thought maybe it was kidney stones. We didn't know what it was. I was just in severe pain. We get to the emergency room. And it's always one of those things that once you're like checked into the emergency room, the thing that brought you there suddenly seems to resolve itself. And so I was going, well, shoot, I seem just, I'm starting to feel okay now, but I am concerned. And I specifically asked them in the emergency room, could this be cancer related? Because I had lost my aunt and my grandmother to cancer, to ovarian cancer. So I was very cancer-minded, and they ran a CT scan, and this was in March of 2024. And they told me, no, there's nothing there that would indicate cancer, and they let me go. And so I went on my way, assuming I didn't have cancer, and I would figure out whatever my digestive issues were. And by the way, in between that, I had gone to see a, you know, my general practitioner who had referred me to a gastroenterologist. And all of that kept telling me that I was probably fine. It was probably my diet. So that was March of 2024, was the ER visit. And then my book, Shepard's for Sale, came out. It did very well. So I was doing a lot of speaking, and a lot of media appearances related to the book through that summer. And then because that was such a busy summer, I decided, you know, part of what we would like to splurge on with my book advance is we're going on a family trip to Italy. We're going to take the two girls. We're going to do this amazing trip. That's probably not very responsible. But I've been very busy in this little season of their life. So this is what we're going to do to reset. And I, you know, I thought it would be better in Italy, because everybody told me their food is so much cleaner. And I really didn't feel any better in Italy. So as soon as we got home, I said, I'm pushing them. I have to figure out what's going on here. That was in October. I pushed them for I look, I need the colonoscopy now, because they kind of kept discouraging me saying, ah, you're very young, you know, you don't typically have to get a colonoscopy till 45.50. So through all of these years, literally years, they kept telling me I was too young, really, for this cancer. And then I went in and got the colonoscopy, and I wake up, and they come out. And not only do I have cancer, I have a very large tumor that was causing all of these problems. So, you know, I think at that point, I don't remember the exact size of the tumor, but it had, you know, grown through the wall, and was like expanding to other places. I had two impacted lymph nodes. So I wasn't just stage three. I was like advanced stage three. So, you know, that was devastating news. That was right there at the end of 2024. So November, 2024. After two years of being told, I was fine. How old were you when you were diagnosed, and then how old were your daughters? So, I was 48 at diagnosis, and my daughters were, when was just a couple of years ago. So, I think, you know, she's 10 years. Yeah, my older daughter is 17 now, she's been 15, and my other daughter was, she's 12 now, so 10. What did you hear after the word cancer? So, to be totally transparent, I have always had a strong fear of cancer. And, you know, maybe that's what the Lord's working on here. I don't know, but I mean, I have always had a strong sense of cancer to the point it became a running joke in our family. Like, my kids would be like, "Mom's finger hurt." She probably has cancer. You know, I mean, so it was kind of this joke in our family. So, I went into just blind panic. I will say that it was some really dark days. But the Lord and His Providence provided for me even in that. I mean, was just very gracious. So, when I got the news, it was the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. We had some dear friends that we have been friends with for 25 years. They got married a month before us. Our husbands were roommates when we got married. We just took our 25th anniversary trip with them to the UK. So, we have known them for years. They went through a terrible cancer fight a few years ago where he had a uing carcinoma in his rib, which is a very serious thing in adults. It's usually a cancer that kids get. Occasionally, an adult will get it. He got it. And it's an aggressive cancer. So, they had been through it all. He had to do the red devil chemo. I mean, and I kind of emotionally held her hand through that. So, when I got the news, they were literally driving to our house for Thanksgiving. So, and he also happens to work in the medical field. So, he came in and was like, okay, Megan, here's what you're going to experience emotionally. Brian, my husband, here's what you're going to experience. Here's what she's going to feel, how she's going to react. And here's what you need to do, practically, medically. So, he got on the phone and went, you need to register for this, this, and this. You know, I'm going to get on the phone with my university of Virginia doctors and find out who they say is the best person in this area. So, anyway, I was just very well cared for in that moment, but it was terrifying. I mean, it was dark nights. How did you tell your husband and your daughters? I mean, my husband was obviously there through the, you know, he was in the room when they came back in and said, okay, and you could see it on the doctor's face when he came in and he went. Yeah, actually, there is something wrong with her. And it's not good. He was kind of my, okay, let's be calm through all of it because I was immediately catastrophizing. And so, my husband is always kind of the one who is like, hold on. We don't have all of the information, you know? I mean, he kind of held out hope, which didn't turn out to be the case, but he's like, maybe it's a, you know, benign tumor. Who knows, you know? So, he just kind of through all of it would encourage me, let's not jump to the next bad thing until we know that we have to jump to that thing. And then what about your daughters? So, my younger daughter, you know, we did tell them, okay, you're not gonna hide advanced cancer. And I did eventually become stage four. So, I mean, from the get-go, we kind of knew this is gonna be extremely disruptive in our lives. So, we sat him down and just said, here's what mom is dealing with without trying to make it too scary. But, you know, my 16 year old, she knows pretty well. She's had friends who have lost parents to cancer. So, she was much more, I think, aware of what this could mean for us. And so, she kind of went into, you know, what we juggling called food Nazi mode, because as you and I were talking about before we went on the air, I kind of lived like a raccoon, just like practically eating out of dumpsters. I mean, I just ate whatever on the fly, didn't really worry about it that much. So, she was like, we are changing our lifestyle. She was the one researching recipes and goes where we're buying our food. mom don't eat that. My younger daughter, I think more just kind of cuddled up to me like suddenly or nightly reading time, you know, whereas it used to be like, do you want to read? And sometimes I, you know, it was suddenly like, yes, yes, every night. Um, so I, you know, I think that's kind of how the two of them processed it differently. Yeah, yeah. Were there moments when strangers online were like debating you or criticizing you or attacking you and they didn't even know that you were going through chemo? Oh, all the time. Yes. I mean, that was constant. And I mean, I, you know, I found out in, like I said, right before Thanksgiving, I think I went public with it's rights before I was going to start treatments with it. So a few months later, just because I knew I was going to probably, you know, not be producing as much work and people would have questions. And, um, and I thought, you know, for the sake of people who are watching, given the fact that I was sort of dismissed for so long, I also wanted to tell people, hey, be aggressive, advocate for yourself. Don't be dismissed. So for that reason, I did go public. And, you know, at that point, I think people were a little nicer. But yeah, I mean, I just published a very controversial book that took a very strong stance on some things happening in the church. Like what? Uh, so the subject of my book is how left wings secular influences, particularly people like George Soros, Bill Gates, um, some of these large secular left foundations were funneling money into the church on the quiet to move our doctrine towards the left on issues like, um, LGBTQ issues or, uh, critical race theory black lives matter. Who are some of the most famous pastors that you found were compromised in this? Um, JD Greer, who was at that time, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. I talked a lot about Russell Moore, who was now the executive editor at Christianity today, David French. So people who, you know, and some of these names have lost a little of their shine since then, but at the time, you know, a couple of years ago when the book came out, it was shocking. It was shocking to people. And I got heavily attacked by now almost exclusively people who were associated either with these ministries or, you know, worked for these ministries were closely associated with these men. But it was hard because we were dealing with this on the one side, but on the other side, I'm going, you know, I have a strong need to defend my work and defend my research and my investigations. And so in a way, it was kind of nice sometimes because I would get, uh, let's say, passionate enough about it that it would make me forget about cancer for a little bit. Um, so, you know, both of those things were going on at the same time. And so where are you at medically today? So right now, uh, as far as we know, I am no evidence of disease. So praise God for that. Um, I have been very proactive in seeking out some, uh, additional therapies. I did the traditional chemo, radiation surgery, uh, but I also sought out some treatment at immunity bio in California, which if you're not familiar, you probably are Alex. Have you heard of Patrick Sunchiong? Um, actually, I think I have. Yes. So he is the cancer researcher. He's now, you know, he's a billionaire and owns the LA Times and owns part of the LA Lakers. And so he has been looking at a different way of treating cancer and strengthening our natural killer cells and T cells to train our immune system to attack the cancer. And so to come at this a different way than just chemo. So I also have been getting some treatment there. So, um, you know, so far, it's been good. Uh, I have another scan in September where they're like, there's a little thing on my lung and they're like, do we know what that is? So we're going to rescan. So if you all keep it in your prayers, that turns out to be nothing. But if it is something, you know, I know that we have a plan for that too. We will, we will keep it in our prayers. I grew up in a juice household. We did not drink water. Water was apparently something you used to bathe, I think, you know, breakfast, we had juice, lunch, juice, dinner, juice. And if we went out to eat, congratulations, you've earned a pop. We say pop because I'm from Indiana. So my palate was basically trained from birth to believe that beverages should provide entertainment, little dancing, a mutton, which is why plain water just still does absolutely nothing for me emotionally. 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I mean, it looked like constantly trying to figure out, okay, if I put in my numbers this way, you know, I hadn't ever really been an AI user up to that point and it's still kind of new. So a lot of people aren't, but I suddenly used AI a lot because I would plug in all of my records and be like, okay, give me my survival statistics if this happens. Okay, well, what if the next test shows this, then how likely am I to survive this or beat this? And my husband would feel like, are you looking for things to get upset about? And like, no, I'm looking for reassurance, but sometimes the numbers don't spit out the reassurance. And then I would become sort of obsessive about other people. I mean, I could tell you every cancer statistic practically of every form of cancer. And this was really not profitable and not healthy is that I had joined these social media cancer groups because people told me, listen, you should join the cancer support groups, which for some people is probably wonderful. For me, what I started doing was looking for people who had been diagnosed with, you know, same stage three or that, you know, later stage four, where they were in their progression. Did they have something called EMVI, which I did have, which is a factor, which, you know, means it can invade your blood vessels and nerve. And so I would just look, if they had all the exact same factors that I have, and then I would go and see, okay, if they, if they were diagnosed five years ago, are they still alive today? Or 10 years ago, they were in this group and they're still alive today. And, you know, plenty weren't. And my husband was like, why are you doing this? Their story is not your story. You know, whatever they were, where they were at medically 10 years ago is not necessarily where we are in our advancement in medical technology today. He's like, stop doing this. Do you think you were just truly information seeking? Or do you feel like you were trying to control something that was fundamentally out of your control number two? Yes. Because I mean, I think I am someone who, and I think it's very natural for conservatives. We believe that we have a lot of agency and that our choices impact our life and that we can control a lot of what happens in our life, our success, our failure. And so I think my natural instinct was, if I get all of the information and I know all of the statistics, and I can game this out somehow, and eventually you realize, no, you can't. I mean, you really have, you can pursue good healthy choices, but you cannot control what happens here. You've admitted that you had prognosis envy where you were like, oh, we're feeling bitter towards people who's cancer had better survival odds. Were you shocked by what fear was exposing about your character? Yes, absolutely. And you know, that was, there's certain things you know, like, okay, I have a tendency to envy. You know, you know this about yourself. You don't know it to the degree until something like this happens. And then you think, oh, it's a small little thing I got to deal with. And then God exposes, actually, this is a pretty big thing for you. And I did. I had prognosis envy, like, terribly, to the point that I struggled with people who would tell me, I beat cancer. And I would go, that's so wonderful. How did you do it? And I'm like, well, I had stage two and I would immediately turn to now because I'm like, you had stage two, you were going to probably be fine, regardless. And that was hard because, you know, they're scared. It's a, look, any kind of cancer, you're afraid. You know how serious that is. And people at stage two do develop to stage four. But at the time, I think I just felt so much like I didn't want to be in the worst category that people who were telling me they were in a better category, like that was just hard for me, you know. When, when Christians are going through something hard, obviously, a lot of times you hear it just trust God, when people would say that to you, when you're going through this, did it actually give you reassurance or didn't make you want to throw something? It depended on how they set it. You know, I mean, truly, because there are some people who say it as just sort of a platitude and to pander to you and to sort of move on from this awkward topic of, "Oh, hey, I heard you got some news that maybe you're going to die." You know, and you're like, "Yeah, I did." So, you know, that, I wouldn't say it irritated me, but it didn't really feed me in any way. You know, you're just like, "Yep. Trust." And it's true. The gospel is preached great. We're all saying something's true, so that's good. But there were also people who would come to me and say, "You need to trust God and hear. I want to show you what, you know, this Puritan Thomas Watson wrote about this, and they would give me this book, and it was deep, and it was rich." And that was the kind of thing that, if you have a friend going through this, and, you know, maybe you're not someone who knows what the Puritan Thomas Watson said, but you may have some real wisdom and a real experience of that. And that was different for me, where someone said, you know, "Either here's something I read or something, you know, deep in scripture that you can hang on to," or someone who said, "Listen, this was the dark night of the soul that we went through, and here's how the Lord brought us through it." And so both of those were, you know, incredibly beneficial and very grateful. You've said that a hymn about God's providence is what finally kind of broke this obsession for you, what happened when you heard it. It was Phil Johnson, if you're not familiar with him, with Grace Community Church, which is John Carthor's Church, and he is also dealing with cancer with a form of lymphoma. And I had just been spiraling, and I think probably a couple of nights before I heard this, it was one of those nights where my husband, like, woke up and came out and saw me on the couch with the computer and looks over at what I'm looking at, and once again, I'm, you know, feeding, chat, GPT question, and then he's like, put it down, go to bed, you know. This is not useful or healthy. And so I did, and then, like, the next day, I'd kind of been avoiding cancer news because at first, I, you know, was obsessively looking up cancer stuff, so I think my algorithm started feeding it to me, but then I started blocking cancer things because I didn't want to see a lot of cancer news in my algorithm because it made me think about cancer. But Phil Johnson, I follow, and he's a friend, so he posted this hymn about his own cancer, what God ordains is always good. And I'm in the kitchen and I started listening to it. And the words of the hymn are, you know, even though I'm drinking this cup, what God ordains is always good, and he's going to bring me through this. And even if I drink this cup of disease, of death, you're still good, Lord, and you are still ordaining good for me. And that was just so, it was difficult to hear. It was convictional to hear, but it was also something to cling on to because I think I really was telling myself, God is only good if I'm healed. And I had to come to terms with, you might not be, and God is still good, not in a general sense but to you, God is still good. So you know, that was something that I very much clung to when I heard that hymn and I listened to it regularly now since. It's surrendering control mean that you stopped being proactive about treatment or did it just change the spirit in which you pursued treatment. Yeah, absolutely number two. You know, I would never counsel anyone to not do the recipe that the young colleges give you. I'm very much like, look, I think I'm skeptical of some things in big pharma and big medicine, but I met a lot of wonderful oncologists and I think they're all trying to do their best to save our lives. So I did all the traditional things, but it, I think it did free me a little bit in knowing that we're going to do everything we can do, but ultimately this decision is up to God. So it freed me from at least this obsessive. If I do all of these things right, then I can get the outcome I want. What in cancer exposed about your marriage that an ordinary, comfortable life may not have revealed? I think I, I can't even think of any way in which it didn't make me cling on to my husband harder or appreciate him more. Like, I don't think it really revealed any cracks on, on his side anyway. I don't know how he feels about it. But yeah, for me, I, it was just a level of care that I had never experienced for my husband because it was different, right? Like suddenly, I would be sleeping all weekend after chemo and he stepped up and is doing all of the house care and getting the kids where they need to be. But more than that, there was a level of leadership that I don't know that I probably needed it, but maybe didn't know I needed up to that point where he, he kind of did have to go not just practical, you know, here's things that need to get done. Here's what we're dealing with in our life. But suddenly, I need you to do these, stop doing these things that are unhealthy for you. And I need you to start doing these things that you know are going to feed you spiritually. And so it was almost like, I don't know, you know that in the Westerns, when the husband sort puts his foot down and she's like, oh, how about, it was a little like that. You know, like, look at him putting his foot down on some of these things. But I knew it came from love and so it was a blessing to me and it kind of, you know, it was attractive. And you know, at the same time, I think it's been hard for both of us because in a marriage, as a wife, I think if you're in a good marriage, you always count on this person to protect you and to provide for you and at the end of the day, it's kind of like the funny meme that's been going around like when they say, no one's coming for you, well, my husband's coming. You know, and I always had that trust and I knew that that was the case and yet here was something where my husband's coming with me, but he really cannot save you from this. I mean, and I think that was a difficult thing, probably for him, just that in any other situation in our life, there was something that he could do to save me. Yeah. And here we, all he can do is sort of hold my hand and encourage me to trust in the one who can save me. At weddings, we say that vow in sickness and in health. What does that vow mean to you now? Yeah. And it's funny because you don't expect it to become a reality in your life at this level. I mean, you know, this young, you expected something that's going to happen, you know, in your 70s or 80s. And so you think, yeah, I'm totally gonna be there for you in our dotage in our old age where you'll need me and suddenly. And I also thought I would be the one, you know, that would be if you get sick because he'd had some heart issues and, you know, and he knows this, you know, he's been trying to lose weight and do these things. And I had always been sort of naturally thin and never had any major health issues. So I think both of us always assume that the sickness part, I would be the one if something happens. This just kind of threw us both for a loop, but it is encouraging when you look at your spouse and there's terrible stories even on the right of husbands who bail, yeah, and check out when something like a serious cancer comes along. And so, I mean, I knew it before, but there's just this huge confidence and appreciation for a marry to a man who would never be one of those men. Was there anything that he had to take over in terms of running the household that previously you would have said, like, oh, only I can do that correctly. Yes. Like, you know, when I was working on the book and with the writing of the book and then the success, at one point we went, we got it, we're just going to hire like a biweekly house cleaner because things are not going to get done and it will be an ease to my mind. And then when cancer hits, he has to be the one to prepare for the house cleaner and some women will get sick. Because you have to clean for the house cleaner. You have to know this. Yes, you have to prepare for the house cleaner. I kind of had to let it go that I'm like, all right, everything's not going to be prepared for the house cleaner in the way I would want it, you know, I would have all the sheets like freshly folded and set out exactly for them and, you know, just all the things. And so that was one thing and the running the girls, you know, that I'm like, okay, look, if you don't tell them they won't be in the car on time, those kind of things, you know, were you able to receive his help gratefully or did sometimes you criticize the way he was helping you? Yeah, I mean, he's going to go, why are you talking about this like a past tense thing? No, I mean, that's like an ongoing struggle because I think every, lots of wives struggle with that. Yes. I mean, look, women are more detail oriented particularly when it comes to the home. And so, you know, I don't know that you're ever going to overcome that mountain. You just kind of have to constantly remind yourself, okay, Lord, the house is not going to come apart if the sheets for the upstairs guest room were not prewashed and folded and laid out for the cleaners this Wednesday. That's going to be fine, but, you know, you're still going to fill that itch. It's a woman. Did he ever, you know, have a certain steadiness to him or emotional distance that you kind of misinterpreted as him not understanding the gravity of what was happening because he was just processing things in his own way? That is a really insightful question. And no one has asked me that. And yes, because I think that's natural that he, one, he is optimist in our relationship. You know, he is upbeat, he is positive. People who know him, he does a program called World Watch for students. People who use that, he is sunny and affable. And so, they sometimes look at us and go, you two are married, like the cynical sort of, you know, journalist who, you know, some people say is a bit of an attack dog. You're married to her? - People say that about Vance and I, 'cause I'm definitely the more like critical, cynical, that type of person, and he is golden retriever. - Exactly. And so it's his nature to want to always think that the best thing is gonna happen, and I was in a period of obsessing on, here's how the worst thing could happen. Here's how badly it could go. And so there was a time when, I can't remember when we had the argument where he's like, I don't want you to hear me saying that I don't think this is a serious situation, I do. He's like, what I want you to hear me saying is, I don't think it's a hopeless situation. And so I think that was really a moment where I went, yes. And I did, it did take me some time, like some months to appreciate he was trying to keep me from spiraling into this dark hole. (gentle music) - I have this realization recently that some of us put wireless earbuds in our ears at seven AM, and basically do not remove them until bedtime, especially people 25 and younger. You know, you're working out, AirPods. They're driving, they've got their AirPods in. They're at their desk at the office. They've got AirPods grocery store phone calls, walking around the house, listening to a podcast. Hopefully this one. We have got to reduce Bluetooth exposure through a device that is literally inside your school. This is why I recommend in where tech wellness is anti-radiation, air tube headphones. They're wired headphones. Instead of transmitting the phone electronically all the way up to your ears, the final portion travels through hollow air tubes, helping you create more distance between the electronic components in your head. And if you're like, okay, cool. I'm gonna buy these, I'm sold on the headphones, but I'm also interested in EMFs entirely, like throughout my whole house, and I don't know where to start. My friend, August, from tech wellness, created EMF protection starter packs with those headphones that I love. Plus, essentials like a Wi-Fi kill switch. You know, you can just click one button, and all your Wi-Fi will turn off at night while you guys go to sleep. And you can get a stylus and an EMF meter so that when you're traveling around and about, you can see how bad the EMFs are. And tech wellness even makes a Faraday bag that blocks wireless signals when your phone is inside the shielded compartment. Go to tech wellness.com, use code Alex Clark for 15% off that headphones, Faraday bag and EMF protection pack. Tech wellness.com code Alex Clark for 15% off. You know that I'm always talking about the basics when it comes to health, the things that actually move the needle. And one of the simplest things that I've added that I genuinely notice a difference from is red light therapy with Juve. Healthy light exposure matters so much more than people realize. Red and near infrared light have been studied for their ability to support cellular energy, which affects everything from skin health, inflammation, recovery, sleep, and just how you feel day to day. For me, Juve has become part of my morning routine. 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Try it for yourself. Go to juve.com/allix. J-O-O-V-V.com/allix. I think a lot of women say, I just wish that my husband would understand exactly how I feel. Do you think that that's a fair expectation women have or are we sometimes asking men to become basically emotional replicas of us? It's a little bit of both, right? I mean, I think there are verses that you are to live as a man gently with your wife. You are to take care of her more sensitive feelings. So, I mean, I think that is something that biblically men have been told this, you as a leader, as a husband and a father, that is something you're to do is to recognize that yes, women tend to be more emotional. Living with your wife in an understanding way, right? Exactly, yes, that's what I'm referring to. So, that's one thing, but at the same time, I do think we can be just terrors, right? We can wield those, I mean, look, we're seeing it right now with this Lindsay Clancy case where there are women who are identifying with a mother who killed her children, and they're saying, you need to identify with her emotions and with her depression and in a way, almost trying to excuse what she did. Whereas you have a lot of men going, hold up, it doesn't really matter what she felt. This was an evil act. And I think, you know, it's a big conversation, but I think generally, culturally, the long house is real. This idea that we live in a culture dominated by feminine sensibilities and requirements, I think that's true and I think we weigh over corrected. So, you know, it's a hard question because I think we are in an era where we could use a little more masculine, tough talking. Was there anything that your husband did while you were going through cancer that seemed small to him but made you feel profoundly loved? - Yeah, you know, I mean, probably stupid little things like when I couldn't eat through chemo, like I just felt so sick, but I have to get my weight up and you have to try to keep the calories up. I would text him, you know, here's the, I need to get one of those protein shakes from, you know, tropical smoothie or whatever, that's all I'm gonna be able to keep down right now. And, you know, he would text back, okay, you know, here's what they're telling me. You want the one with avocado and this protein and so it's not gonna be too sugary. And like, that he was thinking, that's not a thing he would normally think about. And then I knew he was standing there at the counter with a tropical smoothie girl trying to figure out what is going to be the best nutritious, you know, highest calorie, densest calorie thing that I can bring home for. And he, I mean, that became his regular thing, bringing home this very big avalato smoothie from Trump. And I don't know if it's good, Alex. It was just what I could do to him. - Yeah, did you ever feel guilty that your illness had, in some ways, taken over your husband's life too? How did you process that? - Yes, very much because as this is going on, you know, his show, which is with World News Group, was, it was still somewhat in its infancy. So, you know, he had been in mainstream broadcasting for a lot of years as an anchor and as a meteorologist. And I had actually, I had worked at World News Group for a daily wire and my boss at that time knew that they wanted to develop this sort of new broadcast department and kept asking me, you know, okay, what do you think about, should I hire Brian? Could I get Brian? And I was like, no, Brian's good where he is. No, no, no, no. And then, you know, the Lord very much led him in that direction and we've been so happy that he made the switch. But he was basically building a new department that had not existed within this media organization, this Christian media organization, from the ground up. He had a lot on his plate and still did at the time, you know, so he was only a couple of years into that at the time that we got this diagnosis and it's continuing to try to expand and grow it. And now he's going with me to all of these appointments. And I mean, not just locally, but he was coming with me to Memorial Sloan Kettering in New York to get my second opinions. He was coming with me out to LA to, you know, meet with the clinic, Dr. Patrick Sunchyang's clinic. So, he's coming with me to all of these appointments, but that means he's missing a lot of work. And he's not doing the kind of leading and planning of this program that he would normally be doing. And so, I didn't feel just guilt about him. I felt guilt about, those are my friends. I worked with them for years. So, I know what I'm pulling him away from. So, I was feeling bad for that too. So, you know, there's a lot of guilt associated with that. - How did you make room for his suffering when you were the one physically undergoing treatment? - Apologizing like all the time. I mean, and I also, I mean, you also feel like cancer makes you reflect on your marriage and who you've been as a wife. And so, you know, I mean, he has told me, baby, it's fine. But I would suddenly feel like, gosh, I, you know, I was really hard on you in this situation. And maybe it was like five years ago, but like, suddenly, I have-- - You're like, suddenly, like, repenting for all these things. - You do, because you're like, this is a little morbid and dark, but you can't help suddenly thinking, how is my family going to remember me? If I'm not here anymore, how is my husband going to remember me? And so, it would be, you know, me saying, remember that time I was like so hard on you five years ago? I'm so sorry. And thank you for being the husband that you are. - Yeah. - And so, and I think, you know, I mean, he kind of laughs and is like, okay, one, I don't like the reason you're doing this, but two, you're forgiven. - What marital complaint did cancer suddenly make look like really embarrassingly insignificant? - Oh gosh, I mean, like a million little things. Like one, you know, I, leaving, which he's gonna go, didn't you just complain about that last week? I'm like, yes, but with less ferocity. (laughing) Like, leaving Coke, empty, he uses a Diet Coke addict. So, he's drinking Diet Coke all day long and like, there's bottles and lids and I'm always picking up the bottles and lids. And like, suddenly you're like the thing as a wife that you could get, you're not respecting the thing that is bothering me, these bottles and your lids and you're like, but, you know, he is basically putting his whole life on hold to hold your hand through cancer. So, the bottles and lids don't seem like such a big deal anymore. Couples put an enormous amount of weight on things like, having the same hobbies, political views, personality, social preferences. Do you believe compatibility is overrated in marriage or it should have a lot of weight? - I feel like I think we think about it the wrong way. So, when I'm talking about compatibility, it's not that, you know, we have identical personalities and we, you know, which, you know, we have similar personalities. But as I said, he's very sunny. I tend to be more cynical. It's more. If we are spiritually in the same place and I think we're going to naturally value the same things. So if we are both Bible-believing Christians, you know, if we're both seeking sanctification and spiritual maturity, then we are naturally going to value the same things. We're going to value our kids and our family and how we protect our family and how we organize our family. Who is the leader? Who is the primary breadwinner? Winner. All of these things are impacting how you see the world. So it's not that I think you have to artificially go, you know, do we both like golf. But I do think there needs to be this baseline of a commitment to the biggest things. Because if that's not there, I don't know what you do when you get into a situation like cancer. If we are both not looking forward to an eternity in Christ's presence. Like I can't imagine going through this with a spouse where we didn't both have that confidence that, look, whatever happens here, I'll see you on the other side, you know. How many years have you guys been married now? 25 years. So in 25 years, how many times do you feel like each of you has changed? Like do you feel like you're a different person than when you first got married? Yes, very much. And you know, as I look at my husband, I don't know that, you know, not big personality changes, but certainly you see them grow. You see them grow from, you know, a young guy who's like, hey, I can want to get into broadcasting, you know, when we're just newly married. And I'm going, how can I help you do that? Let's do that, you know, to someone who's now sort of the senior statesman in his field and who's, you know, an employer rather than just an employee who's leading people and leading teams. And so that's kind of really wonderful to see. But on the same token, we've had to reorganize a little bit in the sense that, you know, when we first got married, I knew I wanted to stay home with our kids. And deliberately, you know, after I actually kind of had a little media breakthrough with my first book and had some offers, you know, do you want to come work for this organization in DC and we'll connect you with this broadcasting agent and going, no, I'm not going to do that. Instead, I'm going to follow him to his new job in Tucson, Arizona. And I'm going to step back and have babies. And, you know, we did that for 15 years. And I had a very part time at home job. And so then suddenly when the girls got a little bit older and the daily wire opportunity came along, he was actually the one because I was terrified. I'm like, I have been in my comfortable Christian media nest that I love doing part time work for like 15 years now. And when they offered me a job, I was afraid. And I thought, I don't want to do this, you know, I never mind. How do I get out of it? Like literally, I know I told them I was interested. But how do I get out of this job? And he went, I think you got to take it. And I'm like, what? And he's like, no, I think you look, you know, we've got some more flexibility now. The girls are in school. They're both in his little Christian school. I think you should take it. I'm like, okay, I'll write, you know, I'll do it. And so then I did. And then when there was some question about, you know, this book, the editor had approached me, based on my reporting at the daily wire inside, I think there could be a book in this, you know, I was a little like, I don't know if now is a good time. And quite frankly, you know, even some of the people at daily wire, like, I don't know if this is the best time. And we had, you know, some conversations about how would I fit that into my regular work schedule. My husband was the one going, no, you got to do this book. He's like, it's now. And it's needed now. And I totally believe that the Lord has like set aside this project for you. And so again, I said, yes, to something where before he was saying, no, we're going to have kids. We're not going to run off to DC. And we're not going to do these things. So it was kind of just a shift in what he was encouraging me to do. If your husband no longer enjoys the things that initially bonded the two of you, does that mean that you've grown apart in your marriage or you've just entered a different season? What kind of things are we talking about? I mean, who knows? Maybe it's like you guys were both super into working out together. And then one of you's changed your mind or you guys were both obsessed with taking cruises or hiking or or who knows? You guys like to go to concerts together. And just one of you has a big shift in your interests. So if I think if it's if it's interests like that, I would actually say, I think the other spouse should try to continue to indulge that interest. You know, if it's golfing, if it's one likes to go to the beach for vacation, but the other one likes to go to Europe and museums, you know, I think you both of you sacrifice for, I mean, a very superficial thing to ensure the other ones enjoyment and you should continue to try to do that. Now, you know, I don't think you have to do everything, but you could look, talk at what would be the most meaningful to you that we would do together and still try to do those things. If it's something where there is a obviously a deep ideological split, I think that's a really difficult situation. So, you know, I can foresee no situations in my marriage where this would come up and that is part of the reason why it's so important at the outset that you better pick someone who has the same spiritual outlook that you do. Yes. Because when you get into the weeds, that is when these things will really become impactful. So, you know, if you have a spouse and I have seen this particular in my women friends who when you married her, she is a Bible-believing Christian who wants to be a mother and wants to take care of kids and be, you know, a homemaker, even if she's not, you know, I don't think that means you always have to be chained to the kitchen and at home. But it does mean it's your top priority. And then suddenly, you know, she gets a group of friends who are telling her she's been oppressed by this arrangement. And I have seen this happen who are telling her that, you know, he is not meeting your emotional needs in this way. And it is a very socially contagious thing, those kind of self-victimization. And suddenly your wife wants to leave and she doesn't feel fulfilled. That is a very tough situation. I think you need to pursue her and try to keep her to stay and vice versa. But there's also a biblical standard of if they want to leave, you let them go. So, if their interests have suddenly become something that you know, that's sinful. I can't follow you there. Then you can't follow them there. Do you believe that a good marriage can go through seasons when the spouses don't particularly enjoy each other? Yeah, of course. Absolutely. You know, they shouldn't last long. I don't think. But I do think that happens. And I do think it's part of the, you should pick someone you enjoy hanging out with. And that's part of the reason that I have a real problem with the online dating phenomenon as it's developed is that I think it's harder to know who you're going to enjoy hanging out with by swiping on an app. Because sometimes, you know, you get into big groups and the person who on paper looks like it would be the person for you. When you actually hang out with them, you're like, no, actually this person is who I really laugh with and enjoy and they get me in a way. So you don't always know who's going to get you. So, I'm a big proponent of go to church, go to, you know, Christian conferences. I love seeing Christian conferences having their singles meetups because I think the church needs to very much start taking a forward position on how do we help these young people meet each other and build healthy, strong marriages, rather than just sitting back. And this is part of what I've criticized in my book is that, you know, there was a time where I think major ministries and churches and pastors were just following the culture and actually warning about the idol of family, the idol of getting married and having children. And I don't think that's the problem we're facing today. And so I'm going, why are you talking about that? Nobody is idolizing marriage in a culture where marriage rates are crashing out and our birth rates are at the lowest point they've ever been in. I don't think that's the problem. We're idolizing selfishness, me culture, hedonism. Yes, amen. That's the big problem that I see, I think. There's been some interesting discourse online. I don't know if you've seen it, but married women talking about how if your spouse is your best friend or not and if you're like, no, I love my husband. We have an amazing marriage, but he's not my best friend. My best friend is, you know, my girlfriend. He's not my best friend. If you think of your marriage in that way, do you think that's dangerous? Like, should your husband be your best friend or is it okay to love your spouse, but have a separate best friend? I cannot understand a marriage where your spouse isn't your best friend. I just really, because what is your best friend? It's the person that you're sharing the most of your feelings and your thoughts with. It's the person that you listen to the most when they're giving you advice. What do you think? I can't imagine that person not being my husband. So I have some really good friends who I love dearly, but no, they don't supplant that influential role in my life. Maybe they would say they define best friend in a different way, but if it's the person in whom you're confiding the most, who's confiding the most in you and who has the most influence over your thinking and how you're going to approach different situations, that better be your spouse. Yeah. When you were going through this, what ordinary moment with your daughters became the most painful to imagine missing? Oh gosh, so many. I mean, I think I think about wanting to be here for them to have grand babies the most now, and we had trouble having kids, so I wish I had more. We have two, but I am still kind of a little bit in that I see babies and I was like, oh, babies. I love babies. And I wasn't that way, by the way. So for the women who are watching, who are like, oh, I'm not that into babies, and I worry there's something wrong with me, I was totally not into babies before I had them. I was the woman when we would show up at, you know, the game night where my husband would go, listen, so-and-so just had a baby. Remember to make a deal, don't ignore the baby. But then when I had them, it's totally different game. Now I love babies. It just transformed me into a baby person. And so I see these, I was just with my niece and my sister, in law and she has a two-year-old now and she's pregnant with another and I'm like I want to see my grandchildren so that's really my goal here. In the midst of this diagnosis did you consciously start preparing your daughters for womanhood or marriage or motherhood in a way that you hadn't before? Oh yes. You know one thing that and I think we had done this somewhat but it just felt like I wanted to underline it is that you know you kind of absorb even as a careful Christian you can easily absorb the cultures the cultures dominant values and I would talk with her about okay what do you want to do after you know my older daughter what do you want to do after high school we're going to get there so you know what should you major in here's the internships you could get we could do a gap year with something like TPO say but let's think about how we're positioning you to pursue the things that you will want to pursue professionally and you know she always knew that we prioritize marriage over career and yet I didn't feel like I was talking about it in a way that was exhibiting that so suddenly I was very much more self-conscious to say but listen to me the most important thing to your future happiness isn't going to be what job you have or what you know if you have any job outside the home it's not going to be that it's going to be getting married to a good and godly man and having children nothing else is going to bring you as much happiness and life satisfaction so that with my older daughter became a much stronger conversation to say as you're entering these years be thinking about this and you know somewhat with my younger daughter too but at that time she was 10 and so you know you're not trying to stress your 10-year-old out about where you're going to meet a husband there is no betrayal quite like thinking you found your perfect foundation shade in a store getting into your car looking in the mirror and realizing your face a neck or any long distance relationship foundation matching is already difficult online it's potentially a federal investigation which is why one of my favorite things Adele natural cosmetics offers is their color matching service to find your foundation you can actually get personalized help choosing the right foundation formula and shade for 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money on high quality food I don't just want to know what animal it came from I want to know how it was raised what it ate whether it spent its life on pasture and whether I'm supporting the kind of farming that I actually want more of in the world and also getting the most for such expensive meat right meat is in cheap so if I'm going to be spending a lot of money I want to make sure that I'm getting all of the nutrients that I want to get for me and my family that's why I love wild pastures their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished certified by the American grass fed association by the way and raised right here in the United States these cattle spend their lives rotationally grazing on pasture not standing in feed lots eating grain their pork is truly pasture raised which is much harder to find than people realize these wild pasture pigs spend their lives outdoors rooting and foraging and moving naturally instead of being confined indoors they're raised without antibiotics 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Did cancer reorder your definition of a successful life? Yes you know I feel like that's an ongoing process because when it first happens it's like a car crash you know you're just standing back sort of feeling shell shocked and figuring out okay we're practically what are we going where are we going what are we doing now but then as it goes on and we're now two years into this you do start thinking about okay god sort of put this amazing success that I was not planning late in life and that's you know a whole separate topic that we could talk about that I am very much now I have experienced it a proponents of the seasons approach for women that you know you can't have it all at the same time but it doesn't mean you won't have those opportunities later so invest in marriage and children when you're younger but even now as these unexpected successes came suddenly there's a very strong pull on your time you know and there's a lot of opportunities that you didn't see coming yeah and so from about 2024 to now while the cancer is going on you're like ah I want to do this I want to do that but suddenly when it hit and as we've gone further into it we start going well how do I want to if these are if I only have like say five years left do I want to spend them doing you know conferences or do I want to spend more time you know taking these family trips being there for the day to day and so you know I did scale back you know occasionally I would get people who would kind of go are where are you okay I don't see you doing things I'm like yeah because you know I'm doing well and that's been part of the conversation is that I'm doing well so let's use this time for us and not for you know whatever that and I still want to do the the next book and the next book but it's not the priority that it would have been to me when you're in the middle of a season of suffering is it okay or is it contradictory to trust God while also kind of wanting and hoping for a different outcome like can can both of those things coexist or know you you just trust God and that's it um I think you those things have to coexist one we're told to pray for what we want I mean if you go through the Psalms I mean you have David rescue me heal me help me Lord so it's not like we're discouraged from scripture in fact we have parables where God is like be a pest about what you want be the widow who just keeps banging on the door of the unjust judge because if the unjust judge is going to give her what she's asking for how much more will your father who loves you give you what you're asking for that's not a guarantee because he's going to give you what's best for you but part of what he knows is best for you I think is that comfort of knowing this is your father and you learn that in a very new way in cancer you're like father you know all of my failures you know my sins you know my you know character defects you know these things and if I had to come to you and ask for healing and ask for blessing and ask for grace based on my merit I would have no standing and it's this new understanding that it is in Christ's righteousness that I can approach your throne as my father and that I don't have to be sheepish you know I don't have to go oh gosh Lord I'm not in you know the perfect spiritual condition or emotional condition does your dad require that of you no he doesn't does do I require that of my kids no I don't and so I know that I can just go to him and go heal me Lord but at the same time there is that element of look it's scary as a cancer patient to see very very godly people that I know who asked for healing and didn't get it yeah and you go why Lord this is one of the godliest women I know why and I know she was crying out and I know she was praying and asking for healing she wasn't just saying I just trust you know I he she wasn't in the the situation of the Apostle Paul saying whether I go to be with the Lord or stay here it's all Christ and to die as gain right she wasn't emotionally in that place she was I want to be here for my kids and my family I mean where I'm talking about a friend I've had who died of my exact cancer at 42 years old three kids and why Lord and those are the things that you do in humility have to trust you were good I know you heard those prayers Lord and you have eternal reasons that I can't understand for not healing that person but healing this person but I know that what you put in my heart to ask for is healing says there's no like sadness or suffering in heaven these types of questions that we have here on earth when we get to heaven do you think we will have an opportunity to ask those things or do you think it just won't even be in our minds to ask about that I mean I feel like we'll have questions but I feel like they're all going to be you know we're going to see it so clearly I think once we're in his presence that probably we won't even have these questions anymore and I think those past things are going to be forgotten you know but all I know is that and I know I've had this subtle another thing I think about that I never thought about before was. If it comes to it, and God says no to me, and I'll probably cry here. But if he says no, I kept worrying about, you know, Lord, I don't think I'm the sort of person that's going to have this strength, particularly in public now. If you say no, and then I could trust, you're going to give me that grace when that comes. And isn't that what he, you know, told Peter and told the disciples that you don't need to pre-prepare the spiritual strength now when you're standing, you know, before the Roman officials, I'm going to tell you what to say then. I'm going to give you what you need. And I think it's the same thing that I'm like, I am looking forward to a strength that I don't need to have right now. You haven't said no yet. So the no strength, that will come later. And I am having faith now that you will give it to me if I get to that place. Yeah. Beautiful. What conversations do you think couples should have when they're healthy about illness or death before sickness might come? One, I think, you know, just realizing that it's a real possibility because I never would have thought that this was something. I mean, even to this day, I still kind of have this weird sense of this is a joke and someone's going to, because I feel fine most of the time. And so I keep feeling like someone's going to tell me, we're just kidding. You did not have cancer. But I think it's really hard, you know, when you're in your 20s or early 30s and you're young and in love to think that something and look, it can happen to you. I mean, I know incredibly healthy people who did all the right things and the cancer still came or, you know, what the heart issue still came or whatever it is. So I do think, you know, have some serious conversations about understanding. No one leaves here, no matter what happens. You know, I mean, that was a standard that I knew we had before we got married. But it was a comfort when it actually came that there was never even a moment in my mind where I was like, could my husband like bail on me because I am now somebody who was going to have, you know, long-term health issues that we're dealing with in concerns and expenses never happened. And I mean, look, even among Republican politicians, we got some pretty bad stories of people leaving their wives with cancer. And so it was just this enormous blessing to me to go, I never even for a second had to worry that I was marrying to a man who would do that. Yeah. My dad passed away a couple of years ago and at my bridal shower, I asked my fiance's family who are, I'm inheriting like eight sisters, an incredibly godly family, just the coolest ever. I could talk about it for like five hours. But they all have huge families themselves, lots of kids have been married for a long time and his mom was there and grandma's and stuff and my mom. And so I asked everybody to go around and answer different questions, you know, from like how has marriage sanctified you? How do you, you know, make your home peaceful for your husband? How do you make sure they're not hold resentment towards each other, whatever? I'm just asking for advice and one of the things that my mom shared was you need to have throughout your entire marriage, a monthly meeting with your husband, understanding what's going on with the finances, what's going on, like what are our passwords for everything, what, you know, money moves are we making? What do we have in savings? What do we have in check? Like all those things, my dad was very much with my mom and I, don't even worry about it. This is just too complicated for you to understand, like I got it so that when my dad passed away, my mom had literally no idea what she was doing, it was so overwhelming for her and I thought that was really good advice of just having these monthly check in meetings with your spouse about like, okay, because that's, oh my gosh, let me tell you. So I'm getting married, you know, I'm 33, so it's later than I would have wanted, but I've been on my own for a long time and taking care of myself. But the one of the top things I'm excited for for me married is to give everything to Vance, financially, like please, I don't just tell me like what my monthly allowance is to spend, like I want you to do everything else, but I know I still need to have those check-ins to kind of understand what's going on. Well, and I, couple, we don't do it formally, but I will say that's part of what I think and maybe this sounds not romantic but I actually enjoy it when we go on date nights or like we just took a two week trip for our anniversary, you know, with those dear friends that I mentioned at the beginning and then a week on our own. And during those times, just when you do a lot of this assessing, you know, or when you're on the date night, you're like, okay, so I mean, how do you feel about should we invest in this or, you know, should we, our friends are starting this little business and we're like, you should we get in, you know, and so there would be a lot of dreaming questions but also the practical, okay, well, gosh, and sometimes it's just grippy, but they're nice to get it out when you're out on that lunch date going, oh my gosh, we're spending so much on food, you know, we're eating out to, and then he'll be like, yeah, totally, we gotta like do it. And that's a good moment. So we also go, oh, we're on the same page, actually, and it kind of can prevent fights because you're both going, actually, we both are going, we haven't spending too much, right? Eating out, we agree. Yes, we do agree. So, you know, that kind of thing I think is just really good and healthy and it can head off something that will become a fight later if, you know, it comes out that, you know, some money was spent that the other spouse wouldn't have spent money on. So, you know, those are just, even if you don't do it in a formal sense, I think just doing a date night every week can solve that. That's a good idea. Yeah, just keeping the communication open as much as possible. What is the number one thing that you want the women listening to the show or even the men listening to the show to know about when that insignus and in health vow really becomes a reality? The most important thing you can do when that reality comes is be pointing your spouse to Christ and to Scripture and to those promises because it's scary. I mean, it's hard to be in mortal fear. If you've never experienced it when you think, you know, I'm relatively young and I might die. You know, that's not a thing that you really, I mean, even though you know anytime I leave my house, I could get in a car accident or something, but you don't think about it as a reality. So that is the one thing is that when it happens, give them a real hope, not just that everything is going to be okay, because if you have a cynical spouse too, like me, you don't know everything's going to be okay, it might not be okay. But what they can do is say, no, it is going to be okay, no matter what happens because here's the promises we have in Scripture. Again, if you don't have that, I don't know how you get through a situation like this. So that would be the big thing is don't feel like you have to comfort them, rely on the spiritual resources that we are given from the great comforter. Tell everybody again the name of your book, what it's about and then where they can find more from you. Yes. So my book is Shepherds for Sale, how evangelical leaders traded the truth for a leftist agenda and you can find that, you know, Amazon, Target, Christian bookstores, anywhere, books are sold. And I hang out most on X, I try Instagram, I see you Instagram, like the Instagramers are so impressive to me and I get on there and I'm like, I don't know how to do this picture. I like X the best too. I like X the best. So I barely post on Instagram, but you can find me there. I'm a journalist, Megan Basham, but I'm mostly on X where I can just sort of splurge out all my thoughts. And what do you do for the daily wire? I'm a culture reporter for the daily wire and I am most frequently heard on morning wire. So cool. We love it. We love the morning wire. I ask every guest this at the end of the show, if you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, it could be physically, emotionally or spiritually, what would it be? Right now it would be a male leadership. We need, we are starving for it. I think every institution in our country has suffered for a lack of godly masculine leadership and that is the feature that built this country. So I am 100% going, that is what we need more of. I love that. And I have just admired you for so long. I love reading your work. I'm really excited to have you on Culture Path of Care. Thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing your entire story and I'm just praying for your health and everything going forward and listen. If you ever need any tips about what cleaning supplies should I do? I do. I do. What makeup brands, what clothing, getting rid of plastic fragrance, artificial fragrance, I'm your girl. So you text me anytime. And I'll just say really, I love the show and I used to not be the kind of girl who would listen to Culture Path of Care because one other thing that changed my life is cancer. I went, I need to become a healthy person. So suddenly podcasts like yours are like, I'm obsessed and I hate that word because that is the Instagram word. But I am truly obsessed with these topics and what you're covering. It's really important. Thank you. Thanks Megan. Most pride say in sickness and in health without understanding what those words may someday require. But Megan's story reminds us that covenant was designed precisely for the days when feelings are unreliable. The future is frightening and neither spouse can make everything okay. Don't forget to leave a five star review for us if you love the wife school series. New episodes come out every Monday and Thursday at 6 p.m. Pacific 9 p.m. Eastern wherever you get your podcasts. Please leave us a five star review on Apple or Spotify to support us. This episode is definitely a crucial one to share with everyone you know. And this content is for informational purposes only. It is not intended to be taken as medical advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional regarding any questions or decisions related to your health or medical care. I'm Alex Clarke and this is Culture of Pothacary.