Could Test cricket become a squad game?

Pipsyä, kuten se on suudestaan, että joten on jatkoa. Sieltä syötetään suoraan lapaan aivan järjisyyttäväavausimittain. Kaikki ämämlätkästä. Viopleitotaalilla. DNA-asia käsetuhintaaan. Kohta isketään kyllä verkottöötterölle. Ai jai mikä karnevaali. -Dähon niin mua. -Niin soa. Elämä on. Wow! What a catch! -Kiitos! -Kiitos! -Kiitos! Kymme näitä katsotaan. Vemme BBC World Service. Aikki näitä käsetön. Aikki näitä. Vemme näitä. BABO con goifiable Roeva, Coleman Roeva. potatoesomfoon Auldosvarena ainakaan on pelho писavuosta peru oper underwater diolotyvaruna, mikä sen jatkあぁ주 koji. Thomas belmiun mielvennäri nähdä oon sydänsä, Teacher permanently avi pahלalle, mutta tämä musta traffic 30° t witches Oookko, hyvä välalle, funnyisen tosillaan on vastaisen Big foodie, seiseen on huolio, kriketaspäriile, sellat, babyo, oonnot. To home is the question, I can see IPO on osuuhin. This is Charu Sharma, for Akashbani. I'm back in Bangalore after a whirl of quiz shows around the country, which went off rather well, but the bigger whirl, of course, is the IPL. Plenty of matches going on all the time. It's easy to lose track what's going on. It's about the halfway stage, and the most remarkable thing is that some of the usual winners are possibly no hoppers again, but you know, on miracles happens. So we'll see. Amazing how T20 Works and Cycles does it? Good to see you both. Coming up on stump, we're going to be learning later on more about what the ICC is doing to develop cricket across Europe. But first, India's Smriti Mandana has become the country's leading run score at male or female in T20 International. She made history and broke the record that she'd previously shared with Rohit Sharma when she made 13 runs in the opening game of India's 5-match series against South Africa. That took her to 4244 runs from 155 innings. She's also now third on the all-time list for most runs in Mendoff Women's T20 International behind only Baba Azam of Pakistan and New Zealand legend Susie Bates. Charo, quite a feat for Mandana. How's it been celebrated in India? Well, I'm so glad for her because she's, you know, a wonderful cricketer, a great person as well, but I'm afraid the IPL overwhelms everything. And unfortunately, it really hasn't made much news at all. I think people would gradually wake up to that remarkable feat for the moment. But, you know, she's pretty used to the spotlight. She doesn't seek it. She is, I suppose, commercially doing very well. So life is going along very swimmingly for her. You know, many people look at figures. I don't think she's the kind of cricketer who's constantly looking. You know, what's my average? What's my score and where am I? But it's a remarkable feat for sure. It's come in reasonably quick time. I think last year was a purple patch parer. She's had a few in the past. And one hopes that regardless of this figure, her form, which is slightly questionable at the point of time, does continue because she has so much more still left in her. Yeah, it's remarkable that she has got to that record. Of course, it helps. It doesn't in T20s when you're an opener and you get the opportunity to face as many balls as possible. You've still got to score them, you know, a decent rate to score at the volume that she's done as well. And do you like the fact, Cherry, that the men's and the women's record? It is sort of merged in this way because it's quite unusual, isn't it? We don't often talk about feats, you know, where we combine men's and women's whether it's run scoring or wicket taking. Well, I think it's a format thing. And of course, it's always good news. Provided the format is similar and the conditions are the same. I mean, you can argue that the boundaries are a little closer in if you want to be really churly, she's about it. But in T20s, it makes sense, doesn't it? Because the T20 format for both men and women has kind of taken off at pretty much the same time. But if you start comparing other formats, ODIs, even where men have such a big lead or test matches where it's a complete no-show, no contest, that tend to look very unfair. So in T20s, I'm glad that there is comparision possible, notwithstanding the boundary or any other such, you know, comparative analysis, I think it's great. And it shows, I think it gives a lot of heart to women to be compared to men in terms of statistics and be right on top. It shows that the game is very vibrant. They're playing just as well. They're scoring just as fluently or it could be wickets, of course. So I'm all for it. But with a historical perspective of starting off at a similar time, it makes sense. Otherwise, of course, it's a little awkward, isn't it? Alison, "Charo, there are records and there are records." Was this one that she was chasing? According to me, no. I think she's certainly not the record chasing type. It would be even a wonderful surprise to her unless people close to her are keeping her abreastable going on. But celebrations are really much more about and all cricketers and other sports persons to talk about, if we talk about a team game. It's really the team winning or the country winning or franchise winning. It's not so much about individuals at all. I think you already made the point that she's an opener. She's bound to get a lot of runs. But I think a lot of people will be taking my surprise at her situation right now in the all-time run, get us for T20. But, of course, she possibly has more. But no, she's not the record chasing type, Jim. He made her debut in 2013. So how do you write her estimate, her longevity? Well, she didn't start off as the most athletic. Please, forgive me for saying that she wasn't exactly diving around and slipping slightly on the field, the kind of athleticism that earns you lots of injuries as well. She has a very language, easy style. It's not that she's training herself a lot when she hits those big sixes as well. And let's not forget she's only 29. So she's been playing for near 13 years. But she probably has another four or five years ahead of her. And as long as she can, I don't think she's had a career threatening injury yet. So far so good for her. Of course, more importantly, she doesn't fall in Jim. So, especially the fastballers, they tend to be in the injury line all the time. She's had a pretty easy time over cricket, barring one of two very small injuries. And she's certainly gotten fitter over time. That I have to say. So there's been a lot of attention. I think Harman Creed started off saying, "And if a couple of the players, the younger players in India, we've got to be as fitters a lot about the international players are." And in general, the Indians now are twice as fit as they were about 15 years ago. So she's also caught on to that fitness cycle now, which is certainly helping her. And Jim, she is somebody that's caused Australia a lot of problems over the years. And only the very best players do that, of course. Well, yes, let's hope that from India's viewpoint, in hers that this continues. But, yeah, I'd hate to think she's having a little bit of a taper at this stage with the India struggling and seems in this series, in which they've already lost. So she's a player to be respected and she has given Australia quite a few problems. But here we're into a new era in a number of ways around who's playing and who's leading with the Australian theme and the problems that they've got there with Sophie Moligny, as the captain who's currently injured. So let's see what happens when we move into the World Cup coming up. Yeah, Australia have some questions. As does Rusty. I can hear your dog in the background, Jim. But when we speak about Smitty Munder, I mean, yes, she's got this record, but in the goodness, the series that is ongoing at the moment against South Africa, that is a real turn up to see South Africa being so dominant over India across all three of these first matches and they wrapped up the series three-nil now then. And Mandana in particular, only 13 and 12 in the first two games, got 37 in that third. When India got a big total, and South Africa chasing 192 for four, win by nine wickets with 21 balls to spare. But on Mandana, Charoo, I mean, is her form personally a big concern at the moment? Without doubt, although, of course, I say again that the IPL is hogging all the headlines, but there's no question that those who follow Indian women's cricket and certainly the board will be very concerned with her form. Harmon Prith has done reasonably well the last match, and her form was another big concern for quite a while now. Shea Fali is the one that's come up really well. Her return to the World Cup team was a huge boost for her. She has continued to do rather well. But overall, not just Mitty, because she's the leader right at the top, she tends to get her runs pretty quickly, fluently, sets the tone for the rest of the team, and if she's doing well, the team does. as well without question. When she's not, we've seen now that the team tends to taught her quite a bit in its run getting. And there's no doubt in my mind that with the younger people not having stepped up, Jemima Roderick's not scoring runs unfortunately another duck for her last time round. Smith is formed and the rest of the batters will be a huge concern for India going to the workup because especially a way, the workup is a way. The Indians have once again shown that they might struggle for runs. You mentioned the big total in the third one there, the first two, T20 bigger part. But the first two were very average scores. And if the batting's not working, which is I think India's biggest strength, especially with Smithy. And the fastball is not really working as well. The spinners, some of them are new. India could be up against a massive challenge in the T20 workup and Smithy. Unfortunately, it has to shoulder a lot of that. Yeah, and she is such a leader, isn't she? Both with the bat when she's on form and we saw in the 50 over World Cup being the lead scorer there. But also one thing is her grace at the crease and her power at the crease. But it's also her calmness, I think, with her leadership head on. When she's there as vice captain to harm and pre, and particular in the frenetic and the faster pace of T20, she can be that calmness under pressure. And her knowledge that she brings as well, just such a cool head out in the middle, which I think speaks volumes for her and her persona out on the cricket field, which she then obviously so often does translate to her batting. I think we've got to pay some tribute to Laura Wallfart, haven't we, in the way she absolutely dismantled India's bowlers in that 30-20. So if the batting was a concern in the first couple of games, then the bowling had been concerned in the third. And you just got to think that there is some concern for the form of India coming into this World Cup. Without question. I don't know what Jim thinks, because you just talked about India being particularly effective against Australia, but if they're away from-- what is it just the fact that they don't play enough? I'm not so sure, because this series came after quite a while. And maybe he's just taking the time to hit the ground. But she'll wallfart what an ending. So it'll lose as well. And to completely dismantle India and get 200 virtually well ahead of time in a T20, that's just fantastic. I think the Indians are a little underprepared, if I can say that. I don't mean to make an excuse. But it's not going to get easy in England either, because it's still relatively early the World Cup, the conditions are not going to be anywhere near subcontinental conditions. And the T20 is due, as we all know, this shortest format of the game tends to reduce the distance or differential between teams. So India could be in for a very rough time, Alessam. Do you think Jim, that the Aussies are keeping a close on South Africa as well, taking notes of this series, Jim? Well, I think as you know, I was saying, the racing game, the team that's shorting in the betting is South Africa on their performance a few months ago. So I'll be keeping an eye on them. There's disruptions to the Australian side. Could be telling when we actually get there. We've got no idea at the moment, whether they say if you're more than years, going to be playing, captaining. So yeah, there's a little bit of disarray there at the moment leading into it. But I would have thought South Africa and Australia, the crack teams going into it on the evidence of this series between India and South Africa especially. Well, I was waiting to see also how England shape up, of course, the home side, they will want to be there at the semis and the final. And they haven't started really their international season yet. They've got games against New Zealand. And then India, just before the World Cup starts. So a lot of cricket still to be played before the World Cup itself gets underway. I'm Alison Mitchell and you're listening to Stump on the BBC World Service. If you've missed anything from Stump, you can download and subscribe to the podcast by your usual podcast provider. And you can watch us on YouTube by the BBC World Service, YouTube channel. And last week's show, Jim, you told us that Cam Green looked like he was feeling the pressure of being the most expensive overseas player in IPO history after struggling for form in the first five games of the season. He's a bit of the model headed bombat at the moment in terms of how he's going to get out of this. And that will be a concern to him because he's got a lot to play for in the short term and in the longer term in who knows where his cricket is going to be if he doesn't. All of a sudden finds some form fairly soon. From the BBC World Service, this is Stumped on ABC and ApeshBani. Next on Stumped, players from across Europe got the chance to play at the home of cricket as MCC hosted a combined ICC Europe 11 as part of its Women's Day celebrations at Lords. Now, the T20 match featured some of the best players from Europe's associate nations, highlighting a growing strength and diversity in European cricket. Well joining us is the ICC Europe Development Officer, Esther Dahlanger and Scotland All-Rounder, Namer, Shake, who played in that Europe 11. Great to see you both. Thanks for coming on. Esther should point out that you're also a former Netherlands player yourself. So let's start with you. Tell us about the match. What was the aim of the fixture? Yeah, it was a phenomenal opportunity for us to showcase the talent that exists in European women's cricket and to provide an opportunity to these players to play against high level opposition at an iconic venue in a cricket stadium that none of them had ever played in before and some of them had never even visited before. But basically that access to high quality opposition, high quality facilities, high quality coaching with an all-female coaching team around them as well was an opportunity not to be missed for these European players. Namer, a Europe won the match. But what was that overall experience like, both playing at Lords? I'm such a diverse group. Me just looking at some of the countries represented Austria, Germany, Spain, Turkey, Cyprus, Norway? Yeah, it was an incredible experience. And we hadn't really met before most of the team players. So the understanding was really there, like from the start, which was really good. And obviously to win the game as well was brilliant. And playing at Lords was a surreal moment for all of us. For many of us, it was our first time. So I think it's a cricket team's dream to play at Lords and to win as well was amazing. Hello from Sydney. Jim Maxwell here. Esther and Namer, nice to be talking to you. And Namer, you started playing cricket as a 12-year-old, but you'd reckon there weren't many girls actually playing in Scotland. Is that changed? Yeah, definitely. The cricket's gone so much in Scotland in the past few years. I think there's been so much development in the pathway as well. And you see so many girls actually coming into the pathway and playing. I think when Scotland qualified for the World Cup, it definitely really got so many girls into the sport, which is amazing. And what role has your family played in this development for you? For me personally, I started playing cricket and watching my mum smash big sixes in this tournament and to see a female do that was amazing. So I honestly started cricket because of my mum. And they've literally taken me to all my matches, to all my trainings. And even they came to Lords as well, which was amazing, great support. So they're always there for me and always backing me. So it's amazing. Now you're studying in Cantonese. So how do you juggle your time? Are you a professional cricketer? Yeah, it's definitely difficult. And exams coming up around the corner as well. So I think organisation is key. I'm like trying to fit trainings in. And then of course, study as well. So it's definitely difficult, but I feel like, can you do it as well? So just push yourself. Name my high. This is Charu Sharma from Bangalore, India. Congratulations on the win. Jim Benchner, you started at a very young age. You played for Scotland at the youth level, at the under 19 level. Was there a chasm that you had to cross when you started playing for the seniors? Was it just much tougher at competition and abilities? Yeah, definitely. I think obviously, he played the under 19 World Cup. That was a surreal moment for me as well. And then after that, making my debut for Scotland, definitely there was a jump. But for me, it was just like trying to work in my own self, keep improving in really trying to showcase my skills on the international level was the way for me to go. But yeah, the coaches were really supportive as always. And I just worked really hard for it, to be honest. And for me, it's just trying to be the best cricketer that I can be. Well, that's always lovely to hear. Estelle, let's bring you in. How do you assess the state of cricket overall among the associate nations in Europe? Because Alison mentioned many nations. Is there any kind of parity at all or some are well behind? Well, the game is growing across the region. I think it's clear to see from the numbers we're seeing in terms of participation growth as well as the number of countries who are now competing internationally. They're obviously not at the same stage of development. Some are a lot more advanced than you've got countries with long histories in the game, like the Netherlands and Scotland, who are a lot more established and have got those performance structures and development structures kind of well embedded within the country. And then you've got other countries that are very much emerging and that are trying to build those structures from scratch and trying to build visibility of the game and get more people interested in cricket in their country. So they're not all at the same stage across the region, but the game is growing across, yeah. from Scotland to Greece to Bulgaria to Serbia to Norway and Finland. So all corners of Europe, the game is growing. Which is good to hear, but especially for the emerging nations, there must be any number of challenges for development. Would you say a top three in terms of what really needs to be done the challenges? Yeah, the biggest one is visibility of the game. So having an understanding that the game exists for people in a large part of Europe is very limited. And that makes it hard when you're going into meetings with administrators who are giving funding or access to, for them to fully understand the needs of the game and the fact that the game exists and has such a big profile globally. That awareness is growing very slowly, but that's probably the biggest barrier. Then there's limited numbers of facilities. And access to facilities is an issue across the region. That's been identified as a major barrier. And again, when people don't know that cricket needs a lot of space and that you need a lot of time for one fixture, that lack of understanding with local administrators become a real barrier. So even access to ground for the time that you needed to play cricket fixture and to build facilities up to the standard that we would like to see. And then I guess the third one is most of our members are relatively small, kind of volunteer run organizations. So there's always limited amounts of money available, limited amounts of time for people to do things that need to be done. But there's so much passion that is put into the game by those administrators and the volunteers on the ground who are making cricket happen. They're just working with very limited resources, generally. When you talked about the challenges and one of them being the volunteer aspect, you know, you have countries that are, you know, aspiring to, you know, when they get to a World Cup, where they'll be on a stage with real big professional run organizations. What's a role does the ICC have in sort of ensuring that associate nations have that administrative support and can run their affairs robustly? We support our countries extensively when it comes to that administrative expertise and supporting them in setting up the right governance structure. So there's a lot of work from us at a European level with those federations to support them in professionalising their organization and hiring the right people, putting the right profiles out there. But then also once they're in the organization, we work with them quite closely. We've recently had a regional conference for the operational leads of the European nations. Part of that conference is also an opportunity for them to network and connect, but also to learn from best practice and learn from each other about how to run the game and what they can do to be successful and to try and get the game to become a mainstream sport in Europe. And on the visibility piece, interested in what you feel about the 16 European T20 Premier League that has been announced, it's immense competition only. But what role do you think that could have overall in cricket in Europe? No, it's a really interesting initiative and I know it's something that's been in the works for a long time. And it seems like this has been built with the right intentions to really try and grow the game. And I've had some contact with one of the team owners who was talking about, you know, we don't just want to run an event, we want to build a legacy in the cities where their franchise is. And I think that's a really positive sign that it's not just about, we want to do a one-off spectacular thing. If it seems like this is very much a, how do we grow the game and how do we use an event like this to get more fans involved, get more participants involved. And from an IC point of view, that's only an exciting thing to happen. And I'm very curious to see how that's going to pan out when it goes live. But I know that excitement is building rapidly for that. Now you wish we give you the last word, what would the T20 World Cup less than two months away now? Scotland's aspirations and of course they're in a group with England as well. Yeah, we're really looking forward to it, the trainings and everything. And just kind of like more the tactical side of it as well for now. But yeah, really looking forward to going playing in England against England and many other amazing countries and playing the last sprawl cup as well, Scotland. So we did great there as well and excited to play this one as well. Yeah, well, let's hope it proves to be a huge inspiration piece across Europe as well, not just in England and Wales of course, where it's being staged. Esther and Nema, thank you so much for being with us on Stump. That is the ICC Europe Development Officer, Esther Delanger and Scotland All-Rounder Nema Shake. Finally on Stump, it's only been a few weeks, but the new rules that allow replacement players in the English men's county championship could be changed after the first block of fixture is next month. Now the ECB like other ICC four members are trialing substitutes in first class cricket after some high profile injuries and tests last year. Now in the county championship, replacements are being allowed for injury, illness and significant life events, but coaches and fans have been questioning in it after the rule was invoked eight times in the first 18 matches of the season, far more than the ECB anticipated. Now Jim, injury substitutes have been trialled in the Sheffield Shield as well in Australia. How did it work out there? I think it went fairly well. There's always going to be a sense of injustice about how some of these things proceed and the importance of it was to have a restriction on two days. They made it three for the final, which was a longer game and I'm sure we're going to see this happen as we've already seen in recent years with the replacement rule for concussion to be extended to other injuries. One of the, we talk about justice and injustice in all sports and one of the best examples of that was actually in the final when Sam Elliott was replaced by young Perry who immediately came in and got a wicket, but at that point the game was all over. As far as most Victorians were concerned and they were going to thrash out the Australia, but they didn't count a count for the fact that a bloke called Kerry came out to bat and made a hundred and Liam Scott stayed with him and in the end they made enough to win the game and defend it with a fit bowling attack. But look, I think as we go on, if they sort out all the protocols around how the rule is going to work, I noticed in England they're saying it's a bit too generous in the way it's been applied so far and that'll bring some changes. But I think ultimately, like every other sport that we watch, there will be substitutes. It's just a question of getting those protocols right in terms of how long they need to be out of the game and so on, which is what they're dealing with in the in the county game. Yeah, of course, with the county game, if you substitute a player, that player then has to miss the next eight days of cricket, whatever format that game may be. And of course, there was a discrepancy where because the fixture list for the county championship is not even one team that's substitute player misses a player for the next match, whereas another team that's substitute player, they actually had a buy in the next round. So in effect, that eight day rules didn't penalise them at all for the substitution, but it's interesting in Australia, part of the protocol there was that if one team made a substitution for injury, the other team, the opposition could make their own substitute on a tactical basis, which is another interesting part. Chara, I'm interested in how it worked in India because of course it was child in the Ranji Trophy as well. That was for very specific external serious injuries, that right? Well, that's how they started out, but it seems to be received well, the Indian national coach got them to be certainly for it because who wants injuries to carry on and to worsen just because there wasn't any remedy for it. It hasn't so far been abused, that's for sure. And I think it's going to carry on. And all I want to say is that cricket has changed very slowly. The evolution has come very slowly. There are other as popular, more popular sports in the world that do go in for substitution, and you don't have to give reasons. My only concern here is that we're trying to get into the microbes of how deep is the cut and how wide and for heaven's sake, take the subjectivity out of it. Of course, we're depending on medical personnel to then certify that it's an external injury, which can be seen rather than an internal injury, which is a hamstring or whatever else, but they're all equally debilitating just because I've an internal injury, it doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't be substituted. So I mean, I would really think and we can talk about this later in the show as well if you wish, that subjectivity needs to be taken away from it. I mean, many sports allow, physical sports studies, cricket as physical now as many other sports that may not have been so 34 years ago, allow the substitutes. Why would it change any reason for surgical reasons? for whenever, you know, I mean, you don't have to do it. a leaf from say just football's book but there are many intelligent ways of allowing substitutions in a game just to make sure that those who are suffering don't need to continue. I mean people break and injure their fingers all the time, if you see this by favorite one by the way, that kind of heavy taping that goes on in the sponge and everything else, just sit out, let your finger repair, you don't have to go in there and play hero. I mean people love these heroic things about all sorts of walking with the bandage in the head or whatever else. Just take it easy for everyone to say it's a hard ball in case you haven't realised it so far. Well the big cases of course that happened, like all three across England last summer was in the test series with India, Chris works with his dislocation and that produced iconic images as did Risha Pant, of course, with his broken foot and batting on. And at the beginning of the season I remember the test match against Embabwe where Richard and Garava was injured on day one of the test match and Embabwe then had to compete the whole rest of the game, one whole bowl at down and a match that was already sort of quite heavily mismatched if you like in terms of status and competitiveness at the start, that chasm then just grew. So of course you see the merits, can't you, being able to bring in a substitute. But I just wondered if you were doing it for any reason, I mean how, for international cricket in particular, the away team, the travelling team can't bring a squad of 30, can they for a test series and so that would bring a real discrepancy, it's already quite tough for an away team to find that many like for like replacements within their squad. So I don't know how you quite get around that. Well just increased the squad for Evan's sick, I mean why am I so sick? No one's got the money. I mean it's just a, I mean I don't mean to belittle the commercials involved but it's a small additional figure that you need to spend on taking two or three or four more players and make this squad 20. In India too for the moment is like for like but you know even that's a little subjective, you know who's exactly like for like, it could be some least likely different. Medium pace is differ widely in terms of the ability is for instance and who's to say I'm a middle order batter, I could be Kael Rahul batting one through seven. So you know you could say argue it's a batter for batter but yeah I really think the time has come to ensure that like many other sports you don't keep pushing an injury. So many players play with niggles and even bigger injuries all the time. Try and hide it from the management as much as they can or they use to in the past. Maybe it's a little more open now because the physio gets deeply involved but just allow them to recover. Why this match or business of play with a what broken hand and a broken nose and just sit out relax take it easy let somebody else come in let the game go on they'll be very grateful or the substitutes will be very grateful for a quick look into a match especially the long form matches and we can talk about the impact sub as well in this situation which is not exactly an injury substitution but I think a lot of players are now spoken up and say well we're not quite for it because it changes dynamics yes it does get you as to it. Well maybe that's something Jim in Test Creek it may be if two squads of 15 or two squads of 20 very specifically pick their squad based on the idea that you might have an injury substitute and then does it need to be like for like in that case you just know you've got your players and part of that squad selection is about knowing that you might need replacements at some stage. All this will be fine tuned I think the rule of law is going to be part of all of this in the end because occupational health and safety and we all remember bizarre moments in the game when injured batsman have had to go out and hold up an end Colin Cowdery famously at laws but he was at the non-striker's end with his arm in plaster Graham Smith we were called in Sydney having to go out and bat he didn't have to be decided to at number 11 with a broken hand and actually survived for a while he takes some of that sort of romance out of the game that we've enjoyed so much so in terms of the practicality the evolution of the game and as I say the rule of law occupational health and safety it's going to be part of what we do it'll be mandatory and for good reason and it'll improve the spectacle more often than not but every now and then something will go amiss and you'll have to bring that block back and play them in the game I don't think they're going to be taking 30 people on a tour of England in years to come and although England needed another 15 players in Australia they probably would have still had the same result. Probably not going to argue with that Jimmy there. Should there be a limit on the number of substitutes I mean that that's one thing and then should there be a cutoff rule again the Sheffield Shields are right you could only substitute in the first two days of a four day game and county championship is allowing a sub at any time you could bring on a sub for the last hour of the game if some if if a say a bowl gets injured in the dying stages of the last day who's tired and weary but then suddenly the hamstring genuinely goes legitimately a bowl with fresh leg gets gets brought in you have a fresh bowl it's a coming of potentially bowl aside to victory one needed well give the fourth umpire something to do I suppose or adopt the they'll have to have some interpretation and analysis of all of this but you know I think a back to when Steve war and Jason Galispie ran into each other in a test match well that's a pretty good reason for substituting two players so I think there's got to be a certain common sense and practicality about the application of it and it will evolve but um we're just playing at the moment to see what fits best and uh and while we play um we'll probably find these discrepancies what at least it's happening because cricket was way out as chariot he said for years way behind the times in terms of the the protocols replacing injured players but Alison not everything is competitive but even if you just take the football example for one and many other sports equally fresh personnel do come in at critical moments yeah so yeah when a fresh bowler comes in yeah a fresh bowler comes in for cricket or some backs when you can hit really hard in the last two with the four overs of a shorter format game I mean we'll have to live with these things because you can't keep you know holding out of the past when especially when it comes to injury but otherwise strategy and tactics as well so there has to be more thought of course as Jim said to make sure that there's there's it's a maybe the rollout is is a little more gradual before we get to saying all right this many and no more and surely many other sports have had that maturity of uh or should we say the saturation of these many substitutes and no more we should be able to conduct a reasonably efficient game without too much interruption or pushing people beyond certain physical limits so cricket will reach there I suspect but with your thoughts well I've already got concussion substitutes of course haven't we and whilst you know there is that incredible romanticism uh and the the idea of the the players we saw with Risha pant with Chris woaks coming out with his arms strapped up and holding his back in one hand incredible images and then it creates an enormous theatre but that theatre very quickly have come crashing down if Chris woaks had suffered a really serious further injury because he was not able to beat that properly and you know cricket knows only too well the philip Hughes case and you know that happened to a batter who was fully capable of batting in that moment so anything can happen but if if a if a player is already severely compromised and there's no option but to you know to go out and continue then I think cricket will be in a really bad place so I've no doubt that this will it will take shape and I think it will come into test cricket but it's just about that fine tuning isn't it what will the parameters be and so there's some there's some feedback now isn't there having seen it in first class cricket and I'm interested from you Cherry having had that very narrow sense of only external injury in India do you think the ECB has got it right by being injury illness and significant life events so if something you know happens to a family member suddenly in the middle of a match that a player can be subbed out as well without question I mean it has to be extended and I think England are whether other people like it not taking cognizance of the fact that there are many areas of many situations where ability can be limited because of either injury or as you mentioned the other cases as well and we've got to take those into consideration I mean and Jim also made a very sort of important portal legal case as well where you know we can't keep pushing beyond people beyond the certain point so the cricket world is waking up to it I'm glad the DCB is extending the the situations whereby somebody can be replaced without getting into the subjectivity of it I mean when you say for instance there's a family member that is particularly unwell and somebody wants to say well I shouldn't be playing this match I should be in hospital is it how close a family member I mean you know we can't go into those those subjective situations I just think that an easier substitution rule all round is perhaps where most ports need to go and cricket needs to follow suit where where it just makes for a more humane case I suppose you know rather than wondering about oh I have somebody game the system well I mean who's prepared preventing you from not changing or applying or substituting as well. So I think over-policing might just lead to even more problems. So just have a larger substitute bench and go for it like many of the sports do. And I don't think the game eventually is going to be the poorer for it. There might be lots of criticism to begin with because we do try and hang on to the past, but on a humane level, I think there needs to be more easier substitution and cricket as well. It'll probably come in time. As my favourite business about some kind of fielding gloves. What kind of a leader do you plan those fingers? There we go. Jim. Who was to hang on with the finger? It's not Bightful. It's not Bightful, Jack. It's not loud, Miss. Here's a thought I'll end with. I wonder whether had this rule been in place, would the West Indies at the GABA have substituted Shema Joseph when he was hit by Mitchell Stark-Norke, crushed his toes? He came back, continued bowling and bowled them to the most extraordinary, heartwarming victory. We'll never know, will we? But it'll be an interesting one for the future. And probably it's going to come around very quick as well. Jim and Charoo, great to have you stumped as always. And thanks to our listeners. We'll see you again next week. That's it for now. Bye-bye. Stumped is a BBC sport production for the BBC World Service in association with ABC and Akech Vani. [BLANK_AUDIO]