287: Corrina Rawlinson on When You Can’t Push Through Anymore and Finding Joy Again

For more than 100 years, Fair Home College to Wumba has been leading from the heart, providing an exceptional all-girls education from Kindi right through to Year 12. As a day and boarding school, Fair Home is a true home away from home for girls from across Australia, especially those from rural and regional communities. The Fair Home philosophy is for students to grow in confidence, character and community, and it's a school that really understands country families. With a legacy of excellence and care, Fair Home prepares young women to lead with purpose and compassion. Visit fairhome.qld.edu.au And Motherland is proud to partner with the Empowered Motherhood Program, because getting specialist support in pregnancy or postpartum can be incredibly hard when you live far from services. EMP brings physiotherapist-designed pregnancy workouts, birth preparation, postnatal recovery programs, and expert education straight to your home. If you've ever had to drive hours for an appointment or felt unsure about what's safe for your body, this is Trusted Guidance You Can Relay On. Explore the Empowered Motherhood Program at EmpoweredMother.com.au and save 20% off all memberships with the Code Motherland 20. All the links are in today's show notes. Hi, I'm Stephanie Truthui, the founder of Motherland, a national charity that supports rural mums across Australia. Welcome to the Motherland podcast where each week I share with you real and raw stories of Motherhood told by women on the land. I certainly didn't expect to be widowed twice by age 51. I was so scared when he was born. I felt so alone. And I remember sobbing to her, I just said, "What have I done?" It's a wild roller coaster we're all on, so no matter where you live or what you do, remember we're in this together and you're not alone. So what's it like to raise kids on the land? This is Motherland. Today's episode is one of the most raw, honest and important conversations I've ever had on this podcast. And I want to give you a little gentle heads up. We do talk about mental health, suicidal ideation, miscarriage and sexual assault. So please take care while listening and skip this one if now isn't the right time. There are support services in today's show notes. Karina Rawlinson is a rural mum from Esperance in Western Australia, a business woman, a straight shooter and someone who's bravely telling the truth about what Motherhood and mental illness can really look like behind closed doors. Karina shares what it was like growing up in small rural communities, navigating trauma as a child and then carrying that pain into adulthood. All while doing what so many women do, pushing through, keeping busy, keeping everyone else afloat. She speaks openly about being admitted to a psychiatric hospital, about reaching breaking point and what it took to come back from the darkest of places. And she does it all with the kind of humour, honesty and courage that will stay with you long after the episode ends. Seeing on the couch breastfeeding and I said, "Jarod, I've got honestly mental." And he goes, "Yeah." I said, "No, I think that's what I need to share with the world is being honestly mental." This is a conversation about survival, but it's also about hope. Because Karina's story is proof that you can rebuild, you can heal and you can find joy again. This is her story. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] Karina, welcome to Motherland. Thanks Steph, I'm so excited. [laughs] Very excited to have you. Thank you for doing this. Tell us a bit about yourself because we connected because you supported our fundraiser in Darken in Western Australia and reached out to me afterwards. And yeah, you've got a cracking story to tell, but tell us a bit about where you're based, a bit about your life, what you do and what's happening in your world. Yeah, so I am based in a regional Western Australia in Esperance where the world's best beaches are. I think everyone, when they think of Esperance, they definitely picture Lucky Bay with the kangaroos on the beach, which is so amazing. And it's where 800 kilometres from Perth, 500 kilometres from our nearest city. If you need support, you know, it's a 16 hour round trip kind of thing. So for me, being very rural, I understand the distance and isolation. And that's definitely part of my story. So my husband and I have a ag mechanical dealerships. Aside from talking about mental health, I sell tractors and law moors and big self-propelled sprayers and trailer sprayers. My family owns the local news agency in town for 22 years. So we sold that a few years ago. And I've kind of just been fluffing around for a bit, working out what the fuck I'm doing with my life. And I need to crack this. I'm really sorry, but I am going to swear. I'm going to just quickly fix that line. That's fine. That's okay. Head's up to any mums with little ones in the car. And that is fine. You be here. Okay. Yeah. And that's I always do preface my podcast. I'm like, sorry, I'll drop her. It's too much time in the workshop with the guys. And can I just say we need more people selling big rigs and machinery talking about mental health. So I think it's it's fabulous. The two worlds that you live in, as you just say, you know, working, I imagine largely male dominated sort of work. And then this beautiful other side to this open vulnerable and very passionate mum. So yeah, it's going to be a big chat. I have a feeling and you've got three kids. Three boys, 12, 10 and two. And that's a whole other story in itself. It's I mean, for anyone that knows, I very openly talk about mental health, motherhood, miscarriages, running businesses and volunteering. And I think that probably explains why last year I actually got diagnosed with ADHD. So a bit going on. Yeah, but that's just me. I love to have my fingers busy and doing things. And I do really struggle with not doing anything. And I want to get to all your business and your life really. And I guess we've got to start at the beginning. Take us back to your childhood. Where did you grow up? Where's home for you? And what was your childhood like? Yeah, so home for me is Esperance. In saying that though, my family is originally from my mum grew up in Darren, Balladue, Wongen Hills area. So originally from Balladue, which is a tiny little town. I first went to school there. But the school's actually closed down now because it was so little. And we lived there until I was about four, started Kindie. And then my parents, my dad is actually an Ag pilot. So he goes around sprays, crops, and looks after all of that kind of stuff to make sure that we've got, you know, grain that goes into the bin that's nice and clean and fresh and helping farmers in that sense. My mum grew up on a family farm and my grandparents ended up selling it a few years. They sold it probably two years after we moved to Esperance. So Mum and Dad moved to Esperance in '93. They brought an Ag business down here and we've, yeah, we've kind of had that ever since. I suppose, yeah. It's just always been around agriculture in some way, shape or form. We're at the end of the year. not actually other than my grandparents owning their farm, they then brought a pub in a small country town called Yerecoin, so just near New Northia, northeast of Perth. And so for me, I've always grown up really, like those small communities and the benefits of having those small communities around you have just been, you know, something that's really close to my heart. So I grew up the eldest of five and that's a wildness in itself. There was just Dad's like, we had so many kids because we were always worried if there was a snake bite or something, we always had a spare. Oh my god. Jesus Christ. My dad's a child. He's an absolute child. And so, oh my gosh, I'm like, this is my life, my world just doesn't stop. I'm like making sure that I've got all the things imuted. Oh, but Dad growing up being a child in such a volatile work space being an ag pilot, we were not adverse to pilots having accidents and crashes. And that was something that when Dad decided back in 2001 that he would get out of being an ag pilot, him and Mum brought a news agency and they thought, you know, everyone in town, they always want a news agency, they always need the newspaper, they're always going to want Lotto. It's just like a no brainer for us. And so they brought the news agency and about 18 months in, they actually separated. Yeah. How old were you? I know. I should write a book. They separated and Dad went back flying. So pretty fortunate though, like Mum and Dad's separation was pretty, you know, torrential. One way you want to explain it. I know best friends, which is so amazing. They've got. Wow. So how old were you when they separated? I was 13 when they separated. Tough age for your parents to split up. It was wild. It was horrible. It was like the rug had been ripped out from underneath me. And I. Yeah, it was weird because our family then kind of pulled apart. So my Dad stayed in an aspirant and my Mum moved to another town and I was here with Dad and the kids were all with Mum. So it was just me as a single child almost and then my four siblings living 250 kilometers away. So it was completely separate lives. Yeah. And so tell me your teen years take us through those pretty difficult time. Parents have split up heading towards the end of high school, hope streams. What was the plan? I actually always wanted to go to boarding school. I just for some reason I wanted to go to boarding school. My grandma went to boarding school and I had always had my head that I would be the same. I would go to boarding school. I would be living the high life off in Perth and that was very far, far from the truth. I did really well at school. I was fortunate in the sense that I could pass and I never had to study. But I think I was almost a bit naive with that kind of stuff. I was just like, oh, she'll be right. It'll be fine. I don't need to worry about it. Or if I need to study or I need to do a project, it'll be fine. I'll leave it to the last minute and then I end up having a massive meltdown and it would be not so fine. Leaving high school in year 11 because I had been working as a travel agent. I had a school-based training ship working a couple of days a week at the local travel agency and so I ended up leaving school and having a full-time training ship with them when I was not quite 16. That was always, I remember having friends say to me, they're like, "Kareena, you don't even talk to us anymore. You don't hang out with us anymore." That's because I was so busy being a grown-up and trying to be an adult that I didn't really have much of a childhood. And that's kind of reflective in your what happened next because you were married at 19, I believe. Yeah. And you're still married to the same man? Sure, Anne. Well, wow. So. I'll be out at ups and downs. Of course. And yes, and we're going to get to that roller coaster. But tell me, how did you meet? High school. Of course. And was it love at first sight? Oh, it was definitely interested at first sight. Jared grew up in Mungland up, so that's about 130 kilometres from Esperance. He literally grew up under a rock. And I mean that in the most beautiful gentle way, but the way that Jared was brought up was completely different to the way that I was brought up. So he is one of two, so it's just him and his sister, living so far out of town. I mean, not so far really in the scheme of things, but still 130k's out, very small school, very small cohort, not kind of seeing the life things that I saw, which was, you know, like parents separating and being in town. And those kind of adverse things, I suppose I had a very more open, my eyes were very opened very early to a lot of things, which I think is why I really love him or love him, love him, like why I really found safe space in him because he was very calming, very settling. Innocent, I suppose, in the sense of he didn't have all of that baggage with him, whereas I definitely had a lot of baggage with me. I was too cool for him though because I dumped him a couple of times. Oh, but always, you know, I think with my childhood, with things that I'd been through, I was searching for that love and connection that I wasn't able to get at home. And that's definitely not to say that my parents didn't love me. It was like, I am aware now that my parents were so busy going through their own stuff that they didn't have the capacity to be able to support me in what I needed at the time. And it's funny because I talked to my brothers and sisters about things that happened when we were children and they're like, no, that never happened. Did we grow up in a different house? Yeah. And so tell me a bit about that. Like are you happy to talk about, you know, because you mentioned heading into this marriage at 19 with all this baggage, not a lot of 19-year-olds have a lot of baggage or a kind of baggage that you were bringing into that marriage. Yeah. So when I was, gosh, I'd say eight or nine, we actually had a pilot living in my mom and dad's house and he sexually assaulted me, which it's just devastating. And I never told anyone about it because, you know, the guy was like, oh, it's our secret. Like don't say anything. You don't want adults to know. And I only told my mom and my husband when I was about 21. Yeah. So I held on to that for a very long time. I actually even supported one of my best friends through a court case where she was also sexually assaulted and had to travel for the court cases. And I went and I was her support for well knowing that no one else knew that I had been through the same thing. I she didn't like she didn't even know. I just yeah, it was a lot. It was absolutely a lot. But I always kind of felt like I had to be the one that had it all together, that kept going, that just didn't even stop because that's not what you do. You know, it's sit and you don't wallow in it. You like take a can of cement, harden the F up and keep going, build a bridge and get over it. That's that is that is such a big heavy traumatic secret for a little eight-year-old girl to carry through her whole childhood and into adulthood. Yeah. Yeah. How did it manifest for you emotionally over the years looking back now in reflection? How did it impact you? Well, diagnosis wise was PTSD complex PTSD. So where you have a series of traumatic events happen over a period of time is where they they call complex PTSD. So it compounded and with PTSD it is basically the only way to really explain it is it's like it's stuck in your genes like it's in your DNA in your body and every time another traumatic event happens your body reacts in that way. So it's already pre-hitened and then something else will happen. And I remember having deep anxiety for most of my late childhood early teens through to my early 20s about anything can everything. I remember one day my husband and I were out at his parents farm and we would have been 18 or so. And that morning I'd been shifting the freezer around at home and I'd obviously pulled a bit of a muscle in my chest. But what happened was I then as we were walking around the farm I'd get these pangs of like chest pain and then I thought I was having a heart attack. And so we've gone inside and we've sat down with my husband's dad, how's a blood pressure machine and he's like oh my gosh this is not great. And then we've jumped in the car driven 130 kz in, got to the hospital and by then you know I've worked my self up so much that my body was then actually showing signs of a heart attack but it wasn't actually a heart attack. It was just mega anxiety. And there is times where I remember something would be happening like our neighbors would be having an argument like a big domestic and I'd be laying in bed with gut aches and then ending up on the toilet because you know a whole body sweats, tie your knots, just feeling disgusting and horrible and you can't get through that. I had no coping tools, no mechanisms to help me understand what was going on my body, acknowledge what was going on my body and just be aware that, hey, Krony, you're actually having a panic attack and that's because you're not feeling safe in this situation because of unprocessed emotions and feelings and trauma that you've been through as a child. And when did you deal with that professionally? Like when did you actually get help? Was it not until adulthood? It was not until after I'd had my first babies. So, not until I was 30. Well. Yeah. Yeah. So, all those years. 30 years old and it manifested in the way that my mental health was so bad that I was suicidal and I had a plan and I was ready to pull the like you know pull the pin on it and go ahead with it to the point, you know, like I was looking for things to help assist me and no longer being here anymore. And that was rough. Like really, really that's how bad it was and none of my family were aware of it until kind of the night that I had decided that I was done. How did they find out that you were in that dark place? So, with the family news adnus that we had, a lot of the financials were my parents financials even though they'd been separated for a long time was all entwined in this and making sure that the children in the house were still looked after until a certain age, which was really great I think for my parents to be able to mature enough to go, no these are our children we still need to protect them and look after them. But in the same sense the news agency wasn't doing that great and so financially I'm fully responsible for this business responsible for my mum and my dad and my five siblings because my mum ended up having another little boy a little while later so my baby brother 17 years younger than me. So, he's just turned 17, which is just wild. So, it was all of this relying on me and I always had this can do. I've got it. Let me look after it very much. You're the oldest order. You need to protect everyone. You've got to look after everyone. You're basically the second parent. Kind of mentality was that I'm not important. Everyone else is important and I have to look after everyone else and I definitely am a nothing. And so when the news agency wasn't doing well and I was struggling to pay bills and I had suppliers calling every other day going we need payment, we need payment, we need this way. Have you not done that? You know ATO calling all of these things I honestly thought to myself, well obviously this is my fault that we've got to this position. It's my fault. I'm to blame the only way that I can solve this problem for everyone is if I'm no longer here anymore. And as much as that sucks for them like losing me, I felt like losing me would be a relief for them to not have me around anymore so that I couldn't fuck things up for them. And you were a mum by this time? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did really struggle postnatally with both of them. So when I ended up meeting my psychiatrist, she said, well very clearly you had postnatal depression after both of your children. But you know I'd go to the doctors and they'd go how are you feeling? They'd make you feel out that mental health school card and blah blah blah and I'd fake it because you can't be not coping. You can't, you've got to have it all together. You can't draw attention to yourself because that's just not what we do. And so that's as opposed to the reality of it for me was that I had to pretend that I was fine all of the time. But there is only so long that you can put stuff in before it just all explodes out very much that like cope bottle where they put the mentor scene and it just yeah. And for you, Karina, just going back, you know, you talked about motherhood really being the instigator for when you eventually had to face yourself and face your past and your trauma and your mental health struggles. But what was it like for you becoming a mum for the first time? Take us back to that first baby. Going into motherhood with your own childhood trauma, struggling, anxiety. What was it like becoming a mum that very first time? I felt like it was very much like this right of passage, you know, Jared and I had been married at 19. We'd built a house. We were both working. My friends around me were having children. I look now and I think I was 23 when I had my first and I just think, what the fuck were you thinking? What were you thinking? But my best friend, she felt pregnant at 18. Not planned obviously. And then all of my other friends were having babies too. And I just thought, fuck, like, why? But it felt like that I begged my husband, begged him and I thought potentially being a mum would give me more of a sense of purpose. You know, I could be the mum that works and be the mum that attends all the school things and be the mum that does all of the things for the children, you know, we'd go to play dates and we'd do swimming lessons and Kenny and it's just not for me at all. It's just not what part was not for you. Looking after another human being. When you needed looking after? Yeah, definitely. But that thinking that I could look after another human being, but not having looked after myself for a second or not even believing that I was worthy of love. I think that's always been the trickiest thing with my marriage is that I know deeply how much Jared loves me and he's been through this whole thing with me and it just, yeah, I realise it's going to be so much. But just the fact that, yeah, just knowing that someone could love me so much even with all of this baggage is just incredible and it's just been and I've put this poor guy through the ring. You know, and he's just a by me every single time. So I'm very grateful for that because he's the only reason, one of the reasons why I'm still here is because I've had that unrelenting love and support from him. So he's really taught me what it's like to be loved and how I can be safe in that space. So yeah, it's a very non-judgmental support that he gives me, which is amazing. That's some unconditional love. You know, there's love and there's unconditional love and that's incredible to have that, to be loved that much. Yeah, he's a pretty ripper dude. Sounds like it because it has been a really difficult, well, several years and your kids are what 12, 10 and 2, I believe. Wow. So yeah, take us through. You had the two in sort of two years. Take us through, you know, you're becoming a month for the first time was not what you expected. You said you struggled. You had a second. Did you, was that planned? Did you feel like going again was, you know, a bit different that you'd be better mentally? How was that for you? I just don't even know the person that I was then it was just trying to get through just doing all the things. Okay, well, we've had one baby now. Let's have another one. It's done. We've ticked that box off and the game of life is get married, have a kid build a house, you know, do all of the things, line all the things up and then you will be successful. And I thought after I had our second that that would be it, I would be done. But I was probably about five years later. So I was admitted into a mental hospital, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little bit. But I, when I came home from that first admission, I somehow managed to convince Jared that now would be the time for us to have another baby literally. Oh my. And he was like, okay, sure, that's if that's what you really want. That's fine. Let's do it. And we fell pregnant and I went back to Perth and I saw my psychiatrist and she goes, "Prinna, no, no, no, no, and I said to her why? It'll be fine, everything's fine." She goes, the medication you're on can actually cause a spontaneous abortion and I went, "What? No." Well, anyway, even if that does happen, you know, it's God's will and it'll be fine and I'll be okay and we'll just keep going. And so she said, "Go home, book in a scan for next week and we'll just, you know, touch base and keep going and see how things are." And I was like, "Yeah, sure, no worries, it'll be fine." Went to our scan the next week and the stomach was said, "Oh, it's a little bit small. I can't quite see your heart but yeah, but maybe you've got your dates off, me knowing for well that my dates are not off." That afternoon I went back to work and went to the bathroom and then realized that I was bleeding. And I just went into my mom, why does it go? And she goes, "What's wrong?" And I said, "I'm bleeding." And she goes, "Fuck, I don't rang the doctor." And the doctor was like, "Okay, come down here and did a bit of a check." And he goes, "Oh, you know, it could be okay. We'll just see how it goes overnight." And then, yeah, the next morning that was it. And I managed okay. I've actually back in a past life taught hypnobirthing. So very calm, very chill, very intruding with your body. And what I really struggled with when I was miscarrying was how much it actually felt like I was in labor. And I'm like, I shouldn't be feeling this. But obviously that's the way that your body's got to get rid of the pregnancy. And it just messed with my head so much because I had so much emotion wrapped around having two really good birth experiences previously to then this. And I went up to the hospital and I said to the emergency nurse, I said, look, I'm having a miscarriage. I've just been discharged maybe about eight weeks ago from a mental health hospital. I really need help. I'm in a lot of pain. I don't understand what's going on with my body. And she goes, hmm, well, you miscarrying. So it's not maternity. It's definitely going to be a mental health. And I'm just what? No fucking shit. No, are you? Did you actually, anyway, by the time I got into the room and sat down and the doctor came in and, you know, obviously, it's small country town, the doctor knew who I was and, you know, was it one of my births and whatnot? He was really good in being explaining it to me and telling me the process and what we'd have to go through. And I actually went home and made my bedroom this beautiful calm space. Candles, had nice shower, I had friends dropping off flowers and stuff. And as horrible as it was, it was actually such a beautiful experience to sit with that pregnancy, honor that pregnancy as I pass the pregnancy. So I still then obviously struggled mentally after that. And sorry, by this stage of you still got the one child or you'd had two by that time. You had two. Yeah. You had the two. So this is going for your third and I just wanted to ask, you know, you mentioned earlier how much you struggled and you mentioned that you were admitted to psychiatric ward. Yet, after all that, you still were adamant that you wanted to have another child. Yeah. And they have never spoken to anyone on the podcast who has openly told me that they've been admitted to a psychiatric ward or at least I don't think so. And it's not something you hear about a lot. You know, we talk a lot about seeing a psychologist, seeing a psychiatrist for you. What was it like being admitted to a psychiatric ward? Like what was it honestly like to be there? Well, I was in a private facility, which I and I couldn't speak to what it's like being in a public facility, but in the private facility, it was really, really good. It was confronting obviously the first time admitting that I was in such a bad head space that that's where I needed to be. But for me, it was the first time in my life that I actually had people look after me. I didn't have to look after anyone else. I just had to go to the group therapy sessions, get up in the morning, take my medication, breakfast was done, lunch was done, dinner was done. I only had to do my own washing and that it was just me. It was no one else. It took breaking, it took breaking point for you to get there to get the help you really needed. How bad was it? At what point did you know you had to be admitted? Like how did that process work? For people that can't wrap their heads around the tipping point between needing a little bit of support and needing to be admitted to a ward? So I suppose it's, I mean, I'm not a medical professional, but from what I've learnt with my story is that there's a point with your mental health where you're okay and you might have a bit of generalised anxiety or you might have a little bit of depressive episodes and that kind of thing. But if you are in a constant state of anxiety or you are in a depressive state where you can't function, I really struggled to make the decision of getting up and brush my hair and, you know, do my teeth and eat well and all of those other things. I struggled looking after my children. I mean, they were always fed and watered and clean and whatnot, but I was at this point where the anxiety was forever. I didn't drive, I didn't go to the news agency for three to four weeks and I'm the manager of that business. My parents are asking me questions and I'm constantly lying to them. My husband's trying to talk to me about things and I can't give him a straight answer and it just gets to that point where it's just all piled on top of you and you either drown with it or you have to go hang on a second, I actually need help. And to me, it was when my eldest son, so at the time when I was hospitalised, my boys were six and four, nearly seven and five and my eldest has always kind of been of a bit of a mirror with his mental health and my mental health. And I remember saying to my mum, I need to go and get help because I need to be there for him and I need to make sure, like, if for me to get better, it means that he gets better and if I don't get better, he doesn't get better. And that was my tipping point was realising that if I didn't prioritise myself and build good structure and foundational support around my mental health, then how could I ever expect my kids to succeed at doing that same thing? So how long did you stay there for that first stint? About two weeks and that was so hard because my whole family were 800 kilometres away. Lucky in the sense that my sister was working in the city, so she would pop around and see me every other day which was really lovely. But it wasn't until, yeah, I ended up seeing my GP and my GP knew that I wasn't great and we'd managed to try and get a referral to a psychiatrist which is literally trying to get a needle out of haystack. It's such a pain. The mental health system just grinds my gears so bad. I don't understand why it's so hard. I do understand because I've done a lot of research and experienced it. But when my psychiatrist and my doctor finally spoke and I was on a telehealth call with them and she goes, "Karina, you very clearly have PTSD and the only way that we can get you some clear support is by you coming to Perth, you spending some time as an inpatient and we can sort out your medication and we can get you some therapy." And that's what it is. 800 kilometres away. 800 kilometres away. Away from your kids and family and husband. Yeah. But it was the only option. There was nothing. We don't even really have psychologists in aspirants. You would have them and they'd be really good and then there'd be a structural change with the business or something. And it just became this, you can't really get help. If you go to the hospital, they're literally going to treat you like you're crazy. So don't get the help. I'm pretty sure that aspirants actually had one of the, I don't know if they still have, but they were like the highest suicidal rates in regional towns. And I think that speaks to the true isolation of it and the lack of support that we've got here. Yeah. And you felt that firsthand as a mother as well, you know? Having to look after your own mental health, but meanwhile you've got two little kids probably wondering where mum is. When you got home, I have no doubt that there is no way that in two weeks you just magically heal from the level of PTSD and trauma that you've been through. But how did you feel coming home after that first stint and then you're launching into trying for a third and then suffering that first loss? I was so heavily medicated. It wasn't funny. I remember being a zombie. And it was good because I feel like imagine you break a leg and they've got the cast on. I feel like at the time I had very much had the cast on the medication, even though it made me a zombie, gave my body and my nervous system enough of a break that I could start to build in those strategies that I'd learnt to then be able to get to this position of being able to cope. I just remember being a zombie. And I remember we had Christmas because it was only the week or so before Christmas that I spent most of Christmas day actually embedded my in-laws. I binge watched grades anatomy, like no tomorrow, I just slept. I wasn't really present at all. So how I managed to convince my husband for us to have another baby still beyond me. And tell me about that, I guess relationship with your husband at the time because I know so many couples, if one person's struggling, it can be so hard to admit to your partner that something's wrong. For you it seems like you waited until breaking point to really get the help, but was your husband aware that you were struggling so much at what point did he become aware? The same time the rest of my family did, which was when my mum called me over one day because obviously the news agency was really struggling and my brother works in the news and see if I can the retail world and he lives in Melbourne and he'd come over and mum said, "Look, can you just go through the shop? Just tell me kind of what you're taking is on, what's going on because there doesn't seem to be enough cash for what we need in the sense of, you know, we're not making ends meet, but I don't understand." So she was actually away, she came home and he met with her and I got a phone call being, "Hey, Karina, can you come over here? I really want to chat to you." And I just thought, "Fuck, I'm dead. Look, I'm just, I'm gone. I'm going to have to tell them." And at that point, we had the referral for the psychiatrist. I had my appointment coming up and yeah, I sat down with my mum and my stepdad and my brother and mum's going, "Well, the fuck's going on?" Very, you know, Australian mum? Well, the fuck's going on Karina, like I don't understand, like what is going on? And I mean, for her to see her daughter in such a state, I could not imagine how hard that would have been, but then also to know that her business wasn't doing great something that I'd been left to be responsible for. I can imagine, I can't imagine how hard that would have been, but for me to sit there and be crying at them and saying, "It's all fucked. I fucked everything up. I'm done. I just want to die. I don't want to be here anymore. Like, I've had enough." And my mum's not being a very super overly emotional person. I think that's been her coping mechanism for being a wife and a mum and having six kids and all the rest of it. That was her way of being able to mask what was really going on for her. But it was my stepdad that grabbed me and he said, "Do not for us a hint of anything that you're leaving us." Like, not, this is not an option. I don't care. Let's get you the help that you need. Yeah, that's the next minute. My dad's come, my mum's run dad and my husband's come over and everyone's just there surrounding me going, "What do we need to do to help you?" What did that feel like to finally have your struggles out in the open? Yeah, it was really scary because it was the first time that I was openly honest with anyone about it. I knew that I wasn't being judged. I knew that I was very loved. I'm still very loved. I then realised probably just how bad my mental health really was for me to have gotten to that point. And so did they. That's when everyone just got in and all of the issues that we had going on. We had a really successful other business. It was just a matter of, for those that have got businesses, sometimes you've got to take one, some money from this one to look after that one, and it's just a ebbs and flows as it is with anything. And it was all fine. It was all fine to the point we ended up selling the business three years ago now. And we turned, you know, mum was quite happy with what she walked away with. So yeah. And that family, I guess, intervention for one of a better word. Did that come around the same time that you were thinking about taking your own life? What stopped you from taking your life? So I'd written a suicide letter a couple of weeks before and it, so I have my own podcast and I actually opened the podcast with the letter. And I had decided because I knew that mum was coming back to town that night, I thought, fuck, she's going to find out one way or the other. I just, I'm such a failure for everyone. And so my plan was that particular day that the intervention kind of happened, not that I knew that it was going to happen. I was, everyone's going to go to bed and then I'm just going to get up and then I'm going to go and that will be, you know, leave them with my note blah blah blah. And it was only because my family must have just intuitively kind of known that this was the go point and because I was able to let them really know where I was at, then I felt like me doing that was not actually the solution to the problem. Me taking that step wouldn't have solved anything. If anything, it would have just caused more heartbreak and it's taking me a long time to realize that that's, I actually am a valuable person and that I don't have to do 400 things to receive recognition and love and yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's, you know, very confronting to hear, but also so important. I don't think that we hear this enough because it's real and especially in rural communities for women and men, people think about this, people act on this. So thank you for for sharing that as hard as it is and I wanted to ask you your next steps, you know, your family was aware of your struggles, you obviously got some support. You started then this journey of desperately trying to be a mum for the third time and you mentioned the age gap, you know, you've 10 and two. So a number of years there eight years. What happened during those eight years? Oh gosh, what a mission. So I had two more admissions into hospital. The second one was not long after our miscarriage. It was actually the day after my husband started our mechanical business. So his first job of his mechanical business was driving me out to the airport on the Monday morning and I was catching a plane to Perth to spend some time with my brother, our bookkeeper, Eric County, to just sort out some financials because now that everything was out in the open, we were like, okay, what do we need to do to fix a business to get it into a better position? So we spent a lot of time going through all of this financials and the day before I flew out, I had another massive episode where my husband was coughing and I needed him to have some asthma medication. But because I was really struggling with something at the time, I was in bed laying down and this was like four o'clock in the afternoon and he goes to me, I said, well, you know, he needs his medication, like giving me his medication and my husband was trying to get it down or what not. Anyway, I've cracked the sheets and I've walked out there and I've grabbed it and then I've given it to my son that then I've thrown it across the house just had a massive, you know, just so much building up that I just I lost it and I walked out of the house barefoot and I walked six k's and I walked past a bridge, I walked down to the ocean, I was not. You know, when you see those people that are having problem mental health episodes and they are just not, I was very disassociated, it is a word that I've learnt was I was not in my body at all and when I got to Perth and I explained to my doctor the day before, like what had happened, she goes, "Krina, I don't really think you're safe," and I said, "Oh, she goes, I don't think you're in a position at the moment to be able to safely make a decision to yourself." And I saw my psychologist and she said the same thing and they said, "We really think you need to be readmitted and we need to try and sort out some medication because if you do want a full pregnant, we need to make sure that you're on the stuff that is safe." And so I thought, "All right, well obviously I don't really have much of a choice here, this is what I need to do." And I was readmitted and it was the same week that COVID happened. So I spent a week and a half in Perth getting my medication sorted and it's very tricky because when they want to make medication changes, normally it's done very slowly, like you'll tie a trait off of one and then go onto another one very slowly, but this was hard and fast. They're like, "Okay, we're going to half it, stop at the next day and then the following day at the same time we're going to be increasing on another one." So you go through the full withdrawal process and then going on to the other one, the only place to do that safely is in the hospital around those nurses and specialists that are there to support you. And so when COVID hit and they started to close the state down, I woke up one morning and everyone around in a medical hospital was already very anxious because we thought someone in the hospital already had COVID and I rang my mom and I said, "I'm coming home," she goes, "Why?" I said, "Because this is what's going on and I really think right now where I need to be is that home not here, like I can't be stuck here, this is not good for me." And I spoke to my nurse and my doctor and they said, "Absolutely, let's get your home, it'll be fine." And my husband rings and he goes, "You can't leave, you're not ready." Like they haven't done all the things that they wanted to do and I said to him, "My mom distigates from hospital every freaking time she's admitted, I'm doing this one time and I'm not doing it to be a dick, I need to be home." And the next day the state government shut down and was like, "If you, so if I had flown home the day after I would have been had to isolate for my family for two weeks." So I remember going to the airport and it was insanely bare, like there was nothing there, it was there was no one flying, it was very odd. And so at the end of that year I ended up with another admission, but it was more so because my one with COVID had been cut short, that I just needed another block where I could go and fill my car park, have time where it's just me and I'm looked after and I could do the therapy, I could do whatever I wanted, but with the support to fix where my medication levels were at and then I came home and I haven't that was 2020 and I haven't had a hospitalized but if anyone said to me, do you want to go back? I'm like, yes, please. Please, can I go back so that I can read and craft and talk and just not have to worry about anyone else because it was just such a good experience. - And I love your positive approach to it. I mean, it's just such a, what's the word? Like it's such a paradox. Like you've got such a serious mental health journey yet you bring this lightheartedness to it and you've turned it into your own brand as well and in fact, there was a moment where you said something to your husband that kind of has now led to what you're doing now. Tell us what did you say to him? - So I was breastfeeding our third baby. So he came along eventually. We ended up finding, we had two more miscarriages. So we had three miscarriages in total. We ended up finding out that I have a blood clotting disorder. And so when the placenta would go to develop about that six, seven weeks stage that I would clot and therefore the pregnancy wouldn't be viable. Once we worked that out, I then was on blood thin as an extra progesterone and so we managed to hold the pregnancy. His pregnancy was very monitored. Like my pregnancy with him was very monitored because of my mental health because we knew that we were going to have to adjust medication. That when it came to me having him, I had to go to Perth to have him. So again, 800 homeowners away from my family. It was just wild. And so we eventually get home with this little beautiful bundle of chubbiness. Like my kids are just chunky. And sitting on the couch, breastfeeding and I said, "Jarod, I've got honestly mental." And he goes, "Yeah." And I said, "No, I think that's what I need to share with the world is being honestly mental." And it's now morphed into, "She's honestly mental." So that's my personal brand. And it's a platform that I use to openly talk about mental health in a way to normalize. I hate it when people go, "Oh, there's such a stigma and a shame around it." And I said, "I believe that the more that we say, "there's a stigma and shame around it, "the more we're actually affirming that that's what's happening." Whereas if we just talk about mental health in the same way as we talk about our physical health, that's already breaking down those barriers because it's just becoming so normalize to honestly talk about where you're at. And I've got to the point now where I want to be able to make talking honestly about your mental health safe. Because a lot of people are so scared to talk about it because they think, "I'm gonna be institutionalized." You know, it goes back to the days, the dark ages of the witches and all the rest of it, you know, they get burned at the stake or the women would burn their bras and it's just the language that's around it. And I did a lot of work with it. I studied an LP in your linguistic programming and I noticed the words that I used were very powerful in how I was feeling. And so I've made a lot of effort around making sure what I'm saying isn't affirming something that I'm not really wanting or it's a story that's going on my head and I go, "Oh yeah, cool story, bro, needs more dragons." So it's funny. So I'm a very, I find dark humor is one of my ways to deal with my trauma. Some people think it's very strange, but also I probably think they're a bit strange also. So you know what I mean? Like it's very paradoxical paradox. It's such a paradox for me to, I can lose my shit and cry and, you know, not want to be here anymore, but I've got to the point of understanding that my brain at some certain point, it needs a break. And so yes, we had a local Ag show on the weekend and we sold nearly every single piece of machinery that we have in our yard. It was wild. It has never been like that before. We had over 30 good solid leads. I had like 15 quotes to do. And nearly every single one of those quotes that went out, someone who actually purchased that machine. And that's just unheard of. And sorry, I've spent the last 48 hours quoting and selling and doing all of these business things, which really I love doing, but it doesn't bring me joy. And I went home yesterday and I napped and I had said to Jared, I'm sorry for being such an asshole. And he's like, well, you kind of are, but if you need a nap, just go. Because we both know that if I need a nap or I need to go for a walk or something, that's just what needs to happen so that I can be the best person, that I can be as a mom, as a wife, as a daughter, as a friend. And my friends know that if we're out camping and then I just head off and I go to bed, I'm not being a party pilgrim doing that because I'm protecting my space and my energy. And I-- Is it more than naps though? I feel like what else? Because my next question is, you know, reflecting on your journey, I know you said you haven't been hospitalized for, you know, for five years now. Yeah. But what have you actively done and what do you do to look after your mental health so you don't go back into that dark place? Honestly, tell people where I'm at. For 100%. And if they don't get it, then don't get it, I don't care. I've lost quite a few friends that thought that I was talking about mental health and my journey to bring more attention to myself. And I thought, if that's-- if you really think that I have been hospitalized three times because I want more attention, no, not for a second. I found talking online, sharing my story, has been very therapeutic for me. So I find if I'm bottling things up, it just wants to explode. But I was seeing my doctor, my GP, really regularly. I was seeing my psychiatrist really regularly. And for me, it's like it is naps. And it's getting up in the morning and my husband makes me a beautiful care. It's finding the lightness and things. It's having the finding that child in me too. That having fun and playing. Everyone will go to a party and a lot of the parents will be sitting down and not doing stuff. I'm playing with the children. Like, we're crafting. I'm crafting. If they're dancing and bullying on the thing, I'm dancing and bullying on the thing because that's what lights me up and that's what feels, you know, I get those dopamine hits. I get those extra joyful, happy hormones coming through. And that's what I've got to focus on is finding the things that really, really work for me. And everyone's so different. So I'm 100% like my dad. I'm the child. I went to a room for two weeks for Abouistoo Surf. Cloud and we're at this beautiful big camp school and everyone's there. And I went to Kmart and brought $300 worth of craft supplies. So that meat and all the little girls could sit there and be and paint and all the rest of it. Parents are going, "Are you all right?" I'm like, "Yes, I'm having my best life." (laughs) "I'm just like, "I'm just playing." - Yeah, I love this so much. I talk a lot about joy when I speak and do keynotes and what you said about. We're losing our connection to our child, our inner child. Is what happens when we become adults and we life gets very serious, very quickly. And it certainly did for you since childhood. So to reconnect with that joy and playfulness is so important. And now you're a mum of three. It took eight years really before you had your third. Honestly, what has motherhood been like? This third time round with the two year old, you're still in the trenches of toddlerhood, but what's it been like, honestly? - Oh, honestly, the first 12 months was hell. - Okay. - Postpartum. (laughs) Right. - We didn't realize we had no idea actually. So when he was seven weeks old, we thought he'd picked up a virus or something and he wasn't breathing properly and he had a really high tampon. We went to the hospital and four o'clock in the morning and they said, "Oh, look, he's actually okay. He's feeding his fine." So we went back home and then Jared worked me up at 7.30 and said, "Here's some toast, eat before I go to work." He's seven weeks old, seven weeks postpartum. I still need to go to work. And also while we opened a new dealership whilst we had this baby. - Yeah, I know, it just gets crazier. And I looked over and I just looked at my baby and I went, "He's really not breathing well." Like, something's really not right. So we just jumped in the car and drove straight to the hospital and the doctor goes, "I just threw out the thermometer. "I don't need it, like it's fine." Just really fobbed me off. I thought, "He's wrong with you." Like, there's something really wrong with my baby. Anyway, she went through, did all the checks and then we finally got a urine sample out of him and I looked at it and I went, "Oh shit, "it's so cloudy, so my seven and a half week old baby, "how do you use a UTI?" And she was trying to imply that potentially it was because, you know, I'd not wiped his bottom properly and they'd been a bit of an infection, you know, with some poo not being. And I just thought, "What the fuck is wrong with you?" Anyway, we were hospitalized for a few days. Got it sorted and our doctor said, "If it happens again, we'll fly through to Perth." Like, yeah, she wanted worries and it was really weird because he never cried. It was just such a chill baby never cried. It was very content also we thought. And then at nine weeks, literally 19 days later, where I was at work and I've picked him up from his nap, gone to change his bum and I've looked at the way he was breathing and I just said, "Jarrett, something's not right. "This is what was going on a few weeks ago. "Chapting in the car, started driving to the hospital, "got to the hospital, "put him on the scales and then I just said "to the nurse, something's not right." And by then he was completely gray and he was actually septic. So he had another UTI and he was so sick. So it turns out he actually has a uteric reflux. So when your own goes into the bladder, it flushes back up to the kidneys, which my sister had and no one thought to even look at it. So it was just wild. So the first kind of 12 months of him being unwell was not great. He had surgery at 10 months, but he was on antibiotics that entire time. But now we're all through that. And it's fun. It's so fun having this little human in our life. His chunky, his cute, his sassy, he's so loved by his big brothers. I love having the two older ones because they're so hands on with him. It's like we're doing toilet training at the moment. Obviously, I'm not a boy. So my oldest, I'm like, okay, will you take him to the toilet and you show him what you do thing? Because I can't do that. And my husband's not always home. So that's, you know, the big kids are really pivable. But I've found by having the little one that he's really grounded the older two because we're like, oh, this is actually reality. We are raising a little human. And the way you behave is what is going to mold his behavior as he grows up. So they're having to be very conscious about the kind of humans that they are. But it's just we couldn't imagine not having him in our lives. Like it's just, it's brought so much joy to us. And I'm definitely a different mom. I'm so much more chill. And I say I joke about it. It's just because I'm so heavily medicated, honestly. But it's so you still are so that medication is still a big part of your journey. Do you know what it is at the moment? Yeah. And if it is forever, so be it. But since being diagnosed last year with ADHD, I'm not seeing a different psychiatrist. And he goes, who said about all this PTSD and all this other stuff? I said, oh, no, the psychiatrist that I saw. But at that stage, obviously I was in crisis. And so it's a lot different when you're not in crisis into when you're just trying to deal with your mental health in, you know, an overall kind of how you coping in life. And for me, it was like, I'm a life's not an option for me. And so when I saw this new psyche, I was actually, I think maybe you might have ADHD. And I said, what? No. So he went through all my school reports. He spoke to my mom. He went through all of this stuff. I had to go to massive testing and stuff. And I've diagnosed November last year, officially and started medication for that. So we're catching up in December. I saw him a few months ago. And I said to him, what I'd really like to do is now that I'm sorted with the ADHD meds. And I've built more tools and I've built my toolbox a little bit more that potentially we could look at reducing some medication. And he said, I think that's a really good idea. So it's always going to be a bit of a trial and error, but I firmly believe that that medication for me has given me quality of life. You're not going to ask someone who's broken a leg to not put a cast on. You're not going to suggest to someone that's going through cancer treatment to not try chemo. So why would you, you know, like if someone needs a back brace because they're backs a bit out. Why would you even suggest to someone with mental health stuff that not taking medication is a great idea? I think it really depends on where you're in your life with that and how you're coping. But if you're at a point where you're not coping and your life quality is really shit, then why not? And who's told us that it's a bad idea. So yeah. And everyone is so different, you know, like that's the thing is you do you and that's what I always think is everyone and mental health is so complex. You know, you look at your life, it goes, goes right back to childhood, you know, it starts with that little eight year old girl and you know all the way through to a mum of three. So it is so it's so personal and I wanted to say thank you so much for being so open with your journey. And I wanted to ask you, how do you feel about the future coming from someone who at one point didn't see a future. How do you feel about the future now? I'm so excited to get old. I'm so excited to see my children grow as much as I'm scared because I've got teenage boys coming through to my life. I'm just I'm grateful that I never ended it because I get to be here now and I get to enjoy life with my family and my friends around me. So yeah. Well, thank you for being here for sharing your story for being so open and I love what you're doing. I love that your brand and the positivity and the tongue in checkness that you bring to what is such a serious issue but far out like we need more people like you sharing. Sharing it so openly because there are women listening, it will help. It will help. So thank you for being so real and raw. Thank you. It's just been it's been such an honor to be here today and to have the opportunity to talk about it and have the the realness reached so many other people. So I'm hoping that if anyone is listening that they do reach out and get support that they need and know that they are perfectly okay exactly as they are. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's show for more than a hundred years Fair Home College to Womba has been leading from the heart providing an exceptional all girls education from Kindie right through to Year 12. It's also a school that really understands country families. Visit fairhome.qld.edu.au. And Motherland is proud to partner with the Empowered Motherhood Program because getting specialist support in pregnancy or postpartum can be incredibly hard when you live far away from services. Explore the Empowered Motherhood Program at empoweredmother.com.au and save 20% off all memberships with the code Motherland20. That's it from everyone. Thank you as always for listening. I'll catch you next week. [Music]