Core Operating Values (Audio)

We are the MI guys coming back at you with another video cast here and we again are with the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change and we are providing the communication solution to help the individuals, organizations and communities that you serve primarily with motivational interviewing but for change in general. And today we have our lovely team that we usually have as well as a wonderful guest and we have our director Casey Jackson, we have Amy Kallay, we have myself John Gilbert and then we have Ashley on the floor from Maryland here to grill us or be curious with us, whatever you want to do and ask us about how this fits in her world, in your world with dietetics as a fellow dietitian. So that's what we're here to do today and before we dive in with anything I just want to see is there anything anyone else had to add or if Ashley you want to start off with a question you can do that, I just want to open the floor before we kind of talk about values and operating from that kind of language so anyone feel free to jump in. Yes, I'm so excited to be here, you guys are my favorite MI guys. Yeah so I recently started with the new company and I'm doing behavior based nutrition counseling. I see about 10 to 14 patients a day and it's very short 15 minute visits and we follow up weekly to check in on how they're making progress towards their goals. So MI is perfect and I love using it in this situation, it's great. So when I first meet with somebody I like to know what their values are right away, what brought them here, what success looks like for them because we all know how important it is what their top of the mountain looks like so we can help them in the details and goal setting. And so sometimes I'll hear some answers to make better eating habits for children, to be stronger, to have more energy, to reduce the pain in the knees, be more functional or get off medications, those types of things. And then sometimes there's a large number of patients that they'll tell me it's a very surface level values such as to lose weight and then I'll ask why is weight loss important to you and then it'll give me a little bit more information but not really to be in better shape and to feel better physically and mentally. So I was wondering with some of these such as being healthy are they strong enough motives and values that can be helpful to change their behaviors later on when discussing that stuff? And I guess my question is what are core operating values and what are some techniques for fighting that out? You know, it's a great question, Ashley. I've got about three different things running through my brain as you're asking that and the way you framed it. And I think a different podcast we've done and this is a perfect place. The first thing I think of is those can be core operating values. We tend to look at that thing like, you know, that we develop, you know, I developed for FIOC is the top of the mountain concept that you referenced. What are those core core values operating values? What's really important for long term behavior change? It's beyond just them naming them. If you have like in your role where you have maybe 15 minutes, I always say at least 25 to 30% of your time needs to be to explore, expand and deepen those because that literally is the motive and motivational reviewing. So if Tammy says, well, I want to get healthy, it's like, great. You don't want to just jump to plan from there. It's like, what does that look like? What does that mean to you? You're listening to their answer, obviously, but you're also listening past the answer to see if you can extract even deeper motive behind that. So it links into one of the five intentions in motivational interviewing that we measure, which is evocation. And the quality of evocation are those open-ended questions really have to do with the depth of curiosity that you have. What's complex with the world that you work in is because you do have such a quick turnover. So for you to be that present and that curious and to be able to just suspend your agenda, which you're able to do, I know you are with your use of MI, but to be able to suspend it for maybe even two to three minutes more, to really deepen and strengthen that. We also talk about the rule of three. So when they say, well, my health is really important to you, or my health is really important to me. Tell me more about that. Tell me more about your health. What do you mean when you're talking health? What is that about for you? And partly what this is, Ashley, I've been doing a lot of work around brain science as well too. And there's an importance for people to hear themselves talk because maybe in their own brain, they're not clear what those core operating reasons are. So what you're finding is you're getting their brain's first answer that they give to themselves. Well, my health is really important to me. And so when you go, what about your health? And all of a sudden you can see them stutter step a little bit. That's actually a good thing because you're trying to get their brain engaged, that executive function that prefrontal cortex to engage because the stronger you explore and expand and deepen that process, the more staying power sustainability you're going to have with the behavior change. They're expecting you to go straight to plan. They're expecting you to do that. Your industry expects you to go to plan. But as you are trying to deepen your MI skills, if you want that deep sustained behavior change, they genuinely, like almost three-dimensionally, four-dimensionally need to be able to feel what their motive is, even when you're not around. So the more you spend time expanding, exploring, deepening and strengthening that, that is going to serve you well. The other reason why that's so critical is once you do get into plan or they start to move into plan, if the plan starts to get shakier, fall apart, you need to have a really solid grappling hook that's locked into the top of their mountain. If it's not solid up there, when you go to refocus on it, it just comes loose. But if you spend time really embedding that, deepening that focus that they have, if plan starts to fall apart, you always know you can go back to the top of their mountain and dig back in. So go ahead, Tammy. So I wanted to ask a quick question. So Casey, you briefly talked about the rule of three, and what is that real quick? Just a reminder on rule of three. And this is an exclusive to motivational and it's in psychology, it's how do you get to core values? And what it is is when somebody gives you a response, like Ashley's example is just a perfect response. So how can I be helpful for you? What do you want to work on? What are your similar goals? What are your values? My health is really important to me. What you do is you want to ease into each subsequent answer and kind of evoke and draw out more thoughts around that. So when they say health, their first one is health. So then I'm saying, so tell me more about what does health mean to you? And then they start to give more answers. Whatever their answer is, then you ask in, oh, so tell me a little bit more about why that's important. You're going to get to that core of, is it legacy? Is it well-being? Is it connection with their children and grandchildren? Is it just their own sense of, you know, for the long run that they want to be around, that that sense of mortality, whatever those deeper drivers are, there are about three layers down to what the really core level is. The thing that has potency to that is when the brain pays attention to that, their brain is going to revisit that after they leave your office and they're on their drive home. They're going to start to rethink about the values almost as much or more so than even the plan that you came up with. And that's where you start to get that sustainability. Thanks. And I'll jump in here. Oh, no, go ahead. I'm sorry. So with also the core values that Casey was pulling from at the top of the mountain concept, which for anyone that's again unfamiliar, there's plenty of other stuff we've talked about on that. But at the top of the mountain that you went through in the training, those are core values, meaning to not have to be on medication, it could be one of those terms. It doesn't mean that just saying that term is inherently emotionally amazing for some people it might be. But like when you're talking about in the future being off of medications, it's a freedom of medications. It could be some sort of narrative they have about what that means as a person and what that means for their identity. And the rule of three is one various ways to dig into, oh, this is about this narrative you have for yourself or, oh, what you really want is for the future is to be free to travel and do what you want to do and just have that complete freedom or it might be accomplishment and feel like they're still doing things when they retire by doing, you know, and so those words are really what Casey was very insightful pulling from values theory to put at the top of the mountain. They're core values, but they might not resonate if you just say, oh, so you want freedom? Casey helped me understand you want to camp out and touch it, taste it, feel it. That and Daniel Kahneman and other researchers show us we're emotional beings more than rational beings. So we want to have that visceral deep feeling of being at the top of the mountain looking out and being like, whoa, whoa, that, that awesomeness of that. And that really helped me to understand, well, I need to explore this. And yes, it might be quitting smoking or something about medication, but it's at the top of their mountain and looking out, well, what if this were to happen? What if that were to happen? What would that mean for you? And looking back, looking forward, best case, worst case, and you're spending some mindful time, mindful energy there to really sink in, deepen and strengthen whatever that awesomeness is that lights them up for who they want to be in their future. And that, there's something powerful about that. Yes, labels of the core values matter, but like Casey talks about, it's orienting to the core value and then everything riffs around that and then creates an emotional strength, an emotional gusto of motivation around that. So it's less about the label, it's more about the feeling related to that label and getting oriented with them to help them get their behaviors in alignment with their values. And last but not least, there's many other layers here, but last but not least, on this point, at a certain point, we have core values that compete peace of mind because we've had a long week versus our quality of life in the long run short term gratification versus the long term gratification with our same, our same thing of well being watching this show is my self care versus going out on a walk, right? And so I am terming them both as self care, but my point being is sometimes we got to get clear what's ultimately what we want or ultimately who we want to be, even though it might not be as gratifying as this thing that I could justify, that's the hard part I feel of tapping into core values and that we all have competing core values, be it for dessert and alcohol, like I like to say for most people, or that can relate to that or something stigmatized usually, like some sort of specific addiction, either way, there's competing values there. And if you can get to the awesomeness of who they want to be and deeply feel that, yes, with some labeling in there, that to me is what I've gathered from what I've been mentored by Casey and is a way to start thinking about it. Okay, so it's kind of like you're asking and you're getting a little bit deeper into their true values and kind of spending a little bit more time there, you said about 30%. So helping them to actually like visualize them. So instead of just, you know, well, why else is that important? So maybe like, what would it be like if you, you know, made it there and, you know, how would your life look like then and just helping them because it will actually be more effective. And you said stuff happens on later on in their brain and really sticks with them for a while helping with that motivation piece. And so is it better that I will ask that also I can circle around when we're doing the goal setting too and helping to remind them. Right. Yeah, actually, I always try to remember, like, to ask a little bit more about what it would feel like, what it would think, what would it look like feel like and be like. Because I try to remember to do that because it helps people understand a little bit more of like, oh yeah, that's far out. And then, and then it gets closer and closer to, oh no, that could be, if I put myself in that situation, that could be how I could feel that that could be how it would be. So sometimes that helps people camp out in the core values too. Ashley, have you seen, I use, I've used this example before, but have you seen Shawshank Redemption? Shawshank Redemption. I don't know. It's something I have. Yeah. I mean, you can look at any movie, I always think of Shawshank Redemption, but basically what it is in any movie that's an inspiring movie, any inspiring movie. It's because the protagonist has such a clear vision of what they're going to accomplish. I don't care if it's Rudy playing football. I don't care if it's blind. I don't care what it is. Whatever the movie is that at the end of your emotional and so inspired by, it's because they never lost sight of what their goal and who they were, no matter what the odds were. And with Shawshank Redemption, why it's such a great analogy is because he's falsely imprisoned and they have this conversation one point he says, you know, either get busy living or get busy dying. And he talked about this one location, Zehuotnaio in Mexico, where he was going to have a boat once they escape, it was going to happen. And he was so clear about what life was going to be like that he used like a tablespoon to tunnel through. And then he had it into the sewer and then he literally, I mean, this is so literal and metaphorical is he had to climb through the sewer lines where he could barely breathe. So just literally with human waste. And for, he didn't know how many hundreds of yards he's going to have to do that. That is literally what I think of when I think of trying to get people clear about what their motive is, who is going to climb through with in a tiny space with rats and human waste, who could do that for 200, 300 or 400 yards, you have to be motivated to do that. Does that make sense? You have to have that in your mind's eye. Why will I why will I do this plan? Why will I take this medication? Why will I watch what I eat? Why will I do this level of cardio? Why would I do this? And if they don't have a clear, you know, drive inside of them to get there. And that's where focus is in motivational interviewing. If you do not strengthen and deepen and clarify that focus, it won't have as much staying power. And that's what I think of in some of those most inspiring movies. You look at where is the depth of that motive and nothing, nothing will stop somebody that's that motivated. Man, you got me thinking of all the inspirational movies now and we're looking back on that. Yeah, and like you said earlier, some people don't really have that clear vision yet. That's right. So you kind of have to work through some cases for them to build that picture up for. And then the other side, like John was saying, the competing values, I, you know, run into that so much. And when I do, you know, people say, well, had a stressful day at work and, you know, I just want to come home and drink some beer and order some pizza and just relax, watch TV. You know, that's that media gratification. So sometimes it's a struggle to work around that kind of, you know, is, I guess, if I don't know, they're bigger picture in the long run. That's exactly it. This taps into what you were bringing up earlier to Ashley of just the exploration alone and just the very fact that that's your intent going into it is to interview them about what actually motivates them, not what is the right thing to say or what is the smart goal to make, but what lights them up when they think about a life that's worth waking up for that's worth living and then values can be labels that are helping to have it resonate and orient at the top of that mountain to have that view. But at a certain point, people have different things that motivate them in different ways. That's as if we go deeper one step deeper into this with MIs, desire, ability, reason or need for change. This is an acronym we don't focus on as much, but if you take values, values can be a desire of freedom. There could be an ability that I can be free if I want it to be from this thing, but I, you know, choose not to there could be a reason of some sort of value that that would be good in my life. I'm still ambivalent or there could be a need for it. And we know from a lot of other behavior change research, pain can be the most powerful motivator, but positive psychology teaches us that that's not necessarily the most sustainable. I'm sure anecdotally, you know that as well from trying to scare people into change of things that can happen for consequences. There is a fire that can get lit up though. So there's this general sense of what lights them up to be who they want to be. And we've talked a lot about that desire piece of that puzzle, but there's certain things that if you feel that they genuinely want to be around for their kids, that they genuinely want to keep playing with or whatever, whatever the thing seems to be genuinely deep for them that they want, at a certain point, there can be information sharing around them having informed choice to be who they want to be. And it doesn't mean you're trying to fix them or tell them what they should do, but there's a lot of misinformation out there that I'm biased to saying what I'm saying here, because being in those situations, sometimes people don't have a lot of desire for change and maybe they think they're making an informed choice, but they're not. But as long as your intent is to see what lights them up, orient to that and then possibly share information for their own informed choice and support their choice to do whatever they wish because it's their life, that's really all we can do. It's the conversation we're having now is how skilled and powerful are you at getting into what really lights them up and somehow seeing if, not getting them to, but seeing if there's a connection between that and outcomes that they might be deciding in those situations with beer and pizza, that's worth it to do once a week, once a month or every day, depending on the ramifications they want in their life or the benefits they want in their life. And at a certain point, that's what MI is just trying to help people with, align their behaviors with their values and have some informed choice. And I feel core values, Casey's Focus Mountain is one way to really help with that a lot. I'm curious. Go ahead. Because you and I have been in training together and one of the things that I do, and I, most excited, you know, John and I are really close friends and spend a lot of time together. So I've learned a lot about, you know, health nutrition, you know, exercising those things. One of the examples that I use that I think you would really relate to as far as the why focus and how do you get there and then how do you leverage that is I'll tell people, like if I was a personal trainer, if I was a nutritionist and I was a personal trainer and you'd been thinking for six months, Hey, I want to get some help, like I need to get on top of this. And you come in and you tell me as a personal trainer for the first time, you say, Hey, I want to get healthy. I've been thinking about this for six months and my brain thinks, Oh my God, they're ready for plan. So I'm going to say, you know what, we got a CrossFit class starting tomorrow, you're going to be plant based protein by the end of the week. No more meat. Like this is just going to be amazing. You're the kind of person I'm looking to work with. And then I asked the audience, the participants, so you go, I'm going to show up tomorrow at 6am for the CrossFit class and they're all like, no, I said, are you going to eat plant based? They're like, no, you just told me, you've been thinking about this for six months. You came to me. I'm the expert. Why are you not listening to me? Does that make sense? And I think that's where people mistake it. And I said, if I'm going to take an MI approach, what I'd say is, what have you been thinking about for the last six months that made you decide now is the time? And when you listen to that, that's where you're going to start to extract what the core values are from. Does that make sense? So it's like, okay, I need to understand the deeper motive. Because when you understand the deeper motive, then when Tammy doesn't show up two weeks later for her, I'm not going to call and say, hey, Tammy, why didn't you show up? Because it literally is going to generate sustained talk. What I am going to do is say, you know, I noticed that I've been showing up lately, I mean, it just seems like maybe at this point in your life, being around for your son and getting in shape is just, it's falling off your priority list and that's not as important to you right now. And you can just see your brain going, no, no, no, I need to get back to the gym. Does that make sense? So instead of trying to hold them accountable, what you literally do is you go back to get them refocused on what was this about in the first place, because it's never about the CrossFit and going plant based. People don't like to do the plan. What they really want to do is they want the outcomes for the plan. So they need to be able, like Tammy was saying, they need to be able to kind of see it and be it and feel it and understand it. And the more you can extract that through the rule of three, the more you can listen past their words and find it out. And then once you start to get it, that's where the evocation comes, like, how do I, in a curious way, get their brain to be curious about what this is about? And this is where you can get that sustainability is you can always re-reference the top of the mountain again for them. I really liked the podcast that you guys did checking in and it kind of touched on, you know, how to incorporate their top of the mountain back into it when you are checking in and not make it feel like, you know, it's an accountability thing or that they, you know, make them feel guilty if they don't make, reach their goal for that week. So I'm trying to work, you know, a little bit more with the language and how to incorporate their top of their mountain back when I'm talking about their goals. It's kind of awkward at first. Yes. And just like, well, um, yes, tell me, you really want to reduce the pain in your knees and, you know, how was the swimming going? I'm, I'm working on it, but, I'm really good at it. One of the other tools I was going to say that as you were talking about core values and practicing learning and all this type of stuff is on the membership, we also have the tipping, the balance worksheet. And that's one of my favorite ones because it kind of helps you to, has some prompts of questions to ask, but it helps you to refocus yourself on what their core values are and what do you want to do with those core values too? So if you haven't checked that out, I highly recommend it. Just to round that out too, there's, for a long time, decisional balance scale was really an integral part of when people would teach motivational interviewing years ago and then they found out that, that that isn't necessarily a critical part of MI because that can keep people stuck. So decisional balance scale was kind of out of favor for a while. But what I realized was that it's like that writing reflex video that's so good. It's not as much about the just walking through their ambivalence. It's what, what tips ambivalence and if, if you're debating, do I want to, you know, quit smoking or should I keep smoking? And the only thing you introduce to them with their value is say, yeah, but you want to be around for your kids. And they're like, yeah, but you can hear their brains already thought that before. You as a professional have to add a different depth or potency to help that ambivalence tip because what MI is based off of, and that's why this cons, that the conversation, such a good conversation is human beings want their behavior to be in line with what their values and their goals are. And so when they're sitting there after dinner and decide that, you know, I'm going to watch TV and have a beer instead of, you know, you know, do a little mile walk with my spouse. Is that behavior in line with it? On one level, like John was saying, you've got conflicting values that, yeah, this is quality time with my spouse. But when you really push into and if you die younger because of that, that's not a big concern to you, you know, spending that quality time is like, no, I want to be around for my spouse for the long run. So what you're thinking is how can I incorporate this more as a partnership? You know, the two of us are doing something active together. So we both are around for the long run. That would be your best case scenario. Does that make sense? You're going, how do we keep incorporating to what do they ultimately want? And if, especially in the world that you and John are experts in health and longevity is really important for the majority of people, especially in our mainstream culture, you know, to be healthy and live a long and fulfilling life. And there's hard to find other competing things. It's hard to say, well, sitting back and having a beer and watching TV sometimes is more important than you living a long and healthy life. In the moment, your stress can go there, but what we know is stress is they're going to go into their fight, flight and freeze mode. So how do we not push, which will increase stress and then going, you know what, just leave me alone. Let me have my beer. Let me have my TV. Stop pushing the health thing. Instead, what you want to do is help them reduce their stress by going high up. They've gone, you know what, you get exhausted at the end of the day, which helps reduce that. So it frees up that reptilian, you know, the brainstem brain and lets them go into their executive function and prefrontal cortex. So the less stress they feel with you, the more their brain can relax and the more you can say, yeah, your best case scenario is if you could feel relaxed, less stressed and live longer. You're just not sure what that would look like. If there's a way you can figure that out or we can, we could kind of figure that out together. That'd be kind of your best case scenario. But right now you'd like sticking with other things to work for you. Does that make sense? So you can just, there's so many right ways to leverage core values, but you have to be able to explore and identify them first, which is why the question you bring up is such an excellent question. I'll just jump in here just to highlight that something that you taught me, Casey, that was profound for me is that research bears it out, but that what's normal is not necessarily what's healthy. And so narratives can be written, and this is where am I, I'm on a preface is not therapy, but there's a lot of narratives we write in our world view that could justify them choosing the beer and the pizza or whatever it is for them to do that. And a certain point, all we're talking about is how much have you ethically gone into? Is that really who they want to be with all the possibilities on the table? And that it's up to them, given that Casey's given some examples that when you're in their shoes operating from that place and you're curious, you can highlight that this seems to be more important than this. Something about your kids maybe has dropped off now, like you said with Tammy versus kind of the immediate gratification of just coping and peace of mind. So your peace of mind is now actually more important than some of those core things you were talking about before. That's one way to do it and understated reflection. There are other ways to explore it, but the whole point is that you're operating from their core values, the way they look at the situation and helping them make informed choice. And if they, like Casey said, go, "Wait, what do you mean about the early death or whatever it is?" There's an opening to discuss that. And I think there's just something to be said about normal and how people are going to be more normal going out into an obesogenic environment with salty, sweet, flavorful treats at every corner in abundance with them being cheap as possible. It makes sense we're having what we're having because that gratification is right there. So it's going to take that extra effort on your part for the time you do have to go there. Even if you have to have a smart go out the end of the interaction for whatever reason, there's something to be said about what we're talking about here with your time and the energy to even if you have to elongate it one more session, if there are insurance or something that covers it, to make it real for them, to get visceral with them so that at a certain point they're making an informed choice given everything on the table that's not just pushing away something that's normal or something that just feels fine to push away. And as long as I think that's your intention, that's core values are a huge piece of the puzzle for that. Something else you had, I know we're coming to the end of our time. I think I learned so much from you guys, like I already, you know, want to go back and like apply this stuff. So like giving some light to those core values that maybe you're more of the temporary ones, you know, that instant gratification and the pleasure, just kind of going a little bit deeper into it and helping them see the long run, comparing it with their other core values, like the long term ones, and just obviously helping them make their own choices for them as their life. With that spirited approach, Ashley, this is where, like Casey has helped me with very specific kinds of questions of when you're tempted to turn to the fridge, when you're tempted to be that old self of yours, what's going to go through your mind to be that person you want to be with that future you talked about with X, Y, and Z? You just boiled it into that moment, right? Or what do you have control over and all this when you think of kind of the narrative that goes through your mind, or you think of things, what do you have control over and all this now that we have these core values on the table, and it really tones it in. Some people like sticky notes, because we know the research of changing your environment and that it can sometimes be easier just change your behavior, change your environment before you change your cognition. But as long as the core values are at the orientation to all that, then the sticky notes mean a lot more than if you had just jumped to the sticky notes, right? So there's just so many ways to do this that I think you're very keen to outside of AMI and you already are very open and you're going to be growth oriented, I can tell you already are. So you're just going to keep growing and getting better and better at this, but then you get more and more creative and you probably already have a lot of things that you can get creative with. Now this is just going to kind of maybe take that one piece a little bit deeper. In real time, just for my last comment around it from just personal experience and again from just being immersed in motivational reviewing, being around Tammy, John and I used to travel a lot together. And there was a moment in time for me for a health thing and this was, because it's so real and was so personal for me, is I remember when we used to be pre COVID when I was just traveling a ton and you just get exhausted in airports and running to airports and missing flights and all that. And I remember as at the Denver airport and I have a natural obsession with frozen treats and I remember telling myself, I'm going to get, you know what, it's been so stressful, you're exhausted, get the extra large and put as much crap on it as you want to. You deserve this. And for whatever reason, the narrative that finally clicked in my brain, like I feel it coming through because it's like, so you're going to poison your body and make yourself get a headache and get sick while you're on the plane, like that's your reward. So that narrative of what my values really are started to shift to an old narrative around what my values and goals is I need to reward myself because I've been exhausted, but wait a second, is this really a reward or is this a punishment on top of already feeling exhausted? And, and it, you know, it could have been five years of traveling and thinking that way. And it was the one time that finally from John, I talking so much that it finally clicked in my brain, this behavior is not, it's not in line with my values for my body. It's not in line with my values for my mental health or emotional health. This doesn't line up and it doesn't mean I can't have something at some point. But what I really need to serve when I'm this exhausted is I probably need something that's going to re-nourish my body. So my recovery tomorrow when I'm with my kids is better. So that whole, and it's so fascinating training this stuff to have that cascade chain of events in my brain go, yeah, that just doesn't make sense. If you want something, you want to just get a green juice, you know, a healthy one from the, from the juice place, suicide, that just makes so much more sense. And I could finally feel, oh, that really is my values and my behaviors starting to align. It's going to make me feel better tomorrow. I'm going to be able to engage with my kids instead of poisoning myself when I already feel sick. Like it just, it clicked finally, you know, from hearing John say it so many times because that is what my driving values, those are my core values. And that's what I want to operate from. So that's just a real experience that I had as an MI trainer of that same thing about how do you apply those core values and when does that moment click? And that starts to set up that long-term behavior change instead of if I had to report back to John, well, did you use something healthy today? Did you use something unhealthy? That stuff just doesn't keep us on track as much as that. How do I keep my behavior aligned with my, what my values are? That's the stuff just doesn't feel good to anyone. No. No. Tammy, what have you leaked in today? Well, that's such a good example of external accountability versus internal accountability. And as someone that is, for example, a craft beer fan, I have to check that. Like Casey's talking about with his frozen treats. And there's times that alcohol is not a health food, right? So I'm, I cannot justify that accordingly, but there's a certain level of informed choice that I can very much rationalize is the term around that. And at the same time, at a certain point, I would need or would want a conversation with someone in the nonjudgmental space for me to explore how much is this aligning with myself? That's a lot of people. And then if you're at the super echelon of having been in some kind of environment like that, it's like Casey, there's going to be an organicness or a intentionality. The person does themselves, but I simply highlight that, that you're, you're giving people the gift of that possibility. If you go deeper like that, and sometimes you might not even see those ramifications right away, but if you can go there, you're helping that person be more of who they want to be with choice. And like Casey had happened there, it might take years at times. The more skilled you are to am I, the faster you can try to help catalyze that. But at a certain point, you're just really trying to help that oh crap or aha moment, whatever that is related to who they want to be and what they're about. And sometimes they might have to go through some pain. Sometimes they might go through some pleasure, but at a certain point, that's all we can really do with our, in my spirit. And I feel like you have that strong in my spirit to operate from, which just maybe hopefully a little more awareness from here. Yes, thank you so much, definitely some new stuff to apply, definitely work on going deeper into that core value. So thank you all so much. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. It's fun meeting you. I love the question. Yeah. It's very good to see you again. Thank you for being so engaged you were and how you always had a curious question for the training. I had another point. I'd love to hear how it's going with the more specifics, but yeah, it's great to see you. Yeah. Thanks. Great seeing you guys. John, do you want to wrap us up here? Well, yeah, basically again, as the MI guys were always here to help you out. So we have our admin account to get some sort of questions or more feedback from you. Ashley was an awesome engaged participant, but even if you're a passive participant, you have questions and you just want to, whatever, Ashley was so wonderful to just volunteer to come on video. You don't have to do that, but if you want, obviously that's an option. You can send in questions, just we're here to be of service and help you out. And if, you know, Ashley wanted to take it deeper in a certain area, we can do that too. That's what we're here to do. So that admin account, if I'm not mistaken, it's [email protected], [email protected]. Yes. That would be me. Yeah. That would be good. So yeah, because anyhow, so with that being involved, there's everything that we've covered hopefully was helpful in relation to all the, obviously Ashley, you listened to all the other podcasts we have, but if anyone's listening or watching this, we have other podcasts that talk about focused mountain, that talk about values, you bring those together, you'll be really focused on focus, the second process of MI that we were talking about this whole time. So I invite you to do that. Invite you to send an email as well as just ending with we are really here to be the communication solution that will change your world. And that is what we're here to do. So hopefully we can serve you in the future. Thanks for stopping by and see you all later. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. (laughing)