Speaker 1Hey guys it's Sal. Before you jump into this episode I wanted to let you know that we have discounted our grief and loss affirmation cards. They're now $15 a pack. I think they were $40 a pack before so an absolute bloody bargain. We know Christmas is griefy AF and we wanted to be able to support you guys so if you want to buy a pack for yourself or to support someone else they're a really lovely gift. They're a great way to support us as well and they're only $15 a pack. So head to our website that's where you can find them and sending you so much love.
Speaker 2You're listening to Good Morning the podcast talking all things grief with honesty and humor. So guys this has been a very long overdue and long awaited episode but finally we are covering the topic that is very overlooked in grief and that is the grief of losing a pet. And we get loads of messages from our community members requesting this topic and we thought right pet loss psychologist Dr. Katie Lawler is the perfect person to get on the pod. So Katie welcome to Good Morning.
Speaker 3Oh thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here. I'm a long time listener and I just really appreciate you making the time for this topic.
Speaker 1Thank you for joining us. It's something that we hear from our listeners a lot about the loss of a pet. And before we get into the nitty-gritty Katie we'd love to know how did you come to specialize in this area of psychology?
Speaker 3Oh of course. So growing up I always felt that I could just really be my authentic self around our pets. We always had pets in the house and always just felt like I could be really genuine in the presence of animals. I was a very shy introverted child. I still am as an adult and you know as a girl I preferred to be out in the barn. My dad grew up in Ireland and we had horses and cows and I that's where I spent my time. I wasn't out socializing at parties or the things that my peers preferred to do. And I think you know for so many of us our animals are our primary and our preferred sources of companionship and love. And I've never thought our society especially here in the U.S. gave enough attention to the traditions and the rituals and the grief for when our pets pass away. And I started formally studying this in graduate school when I was training to become a clinical psychologist. And I began adapting the therapies that were written for humans. I began adapting those for animals. And I think this is so important to be able to do that. And I think it's so important to be able to do that. And I that we're talking about this today because you know it is entirely normal if I do one thing today I want to normalize that many of us feel closer to animals than we do other humans. And here in the U.S. 70 percent of homes have at least one pet and nearly 90 percent of pet guardians view their pets as family. And 85 percent of those pet guardians report grief and loss that would be comparable to the number of pets that they have. So I think it's so important to be able to do that. You know, I didn't have the money for treatment. or I couldn't afford that to take them to the vet as often as I wanted and when I am working with my clients I have two questions that I like to ask them that can really help clarify an understanding of what happened when their animal passed and really help us break out of that trap of guilt because I do think it's a trap and the first question is could I have acted any differently considering the information and the resources I had access to so you know my finances the support of loved ones my previous experience with animals and I think if you were to objectively ask yourself this question you would probably realize that you did everything that you could for your animal and I think this question also prompts a profound and really deep reflection on the randomness of certain life events there are so many things that are just non-existent and then the second question is is there anything I did that I could be proud of when our pets pass we tend to focus exclusively you know on the devastating the dark aspects of their passing and instead I would really encourage you to try to remember the moments that you were kind that you were gentle that you gave you gave them all the love that you had and give these equal attention
Speaker 2great advice and there's so many similarities to losing a loved one that's a lot of the advice that we will give our community if they're experiencing grief when their loved one passed as well so it's good advice and I think we really do need to as a society start viewing it in the same light totally
Speaker 3and I think so many of us don't do this because in a really twisted way it's easier to beat ourselves up when we're experiencing this loss than it is to accept the loss itself. that they're that they're not physically here we really just want to berate ourselves and we're we're very good unfortunately at being very cruel to ourselves when we're grieving
Speaker 1totally and I think because society doesn't acknowledge this kind of loss people find it really difficult to express it to other people if they are grieving the loss of a pet or really struggling it reminds me of my best friend actually a situation he was in and I'd love to get your thoughts because I wonder if this is something that you come across often but he had a dog and the dog was ill for quite some time and they knew that the time was coming where he would have to be put down but because the dog was his partner's dog first and and his partner had had the dog for I think 11 or 12 years his partner was very very attached to the dog as was my friend but my friend could see that the dog wasn't living a good life but his partner was really hesitant to end his life because of that love and that emotional attachment but it was also then impacting their life because of the level of care the dog you know he was a big border collie and he needed to be carried down like three flights of stairs and like it was just it was putting a strain on my friend's physical health so it was a it was about a year that they deliberated how do you make that decision? If you're at odds with your partner or you're not coming from the same point of view is there a way to mitigate that? No absolutely and
Speaker 3I think this is where the relationship with your veterinarian comes in so many and that is what I do in my day job I work solely with veterinarians with vet med and shelter med staff they do have checklists that can tell you you know is is the animal having more good days and better days and better days and better days and better days and better days and bad days they they have very specific signs that you can be on the lookout for and I think this is where a third party can bring the two of you together and and it's really helpful because you're bringing in in this case the expert and you can take their advice and hopefully find some common ground that's what I would recommend that happens so let me validate that a thousand percent because it is it's your baby yeah how
Speaker 2do you make that decision right? Like oh we throw it out to our community as well Katie to see if they had any questions for you and we were inundated so we've hand-picked a few for to answer if that's okay of course so the first one we had in they said hi Sal and Im I hope sending the question here is okay I'm really looking forward to this episode we lost our dear cat Pistachio unexpectedly in February and it has been the most heartbreaking experience she was young around four or five and we lost her during an important time in our lives my husband and I were in a relationship and we were in a relationship I recently got married and we're looking forward to buying a house with lots of big windows that Pistachio could perch on to watch the birds oh bless what advice do you have for moving through grief when you have lost a young pet for me there is a feeling of unfairness and that years of unconditional love and happiness were taken away from
Speaker 3us oh my goodness well first of all um my entire heart is with you and hearing this I think there's two aspects that we could discuss that could be helpful here so of course you're going to ruminate on the time that you didn't have with Pistachio and feel robbed I want to validate that completely and that's probably going to leave you feeling angry hurt lonely you know grief is so much more than sadness it's a full range of emotions you know fill in the blank um and when we're feeling these dark emotions if instead when those come up I would really encourage you to try to focus your attention on the moments that you did have and find gratitude for the time that you were able to spend together and I of course I know this is so much easier said and then said it than done um but it reminds me of a story so my first job after college I worked for NBC News in New York City and I started as an intern and I was there for almost four years and I worked with um the late great uh Tim Russert it was a huge honor and I think it was a huge honor um who was this extraordinary American um journalist but he gave one day an advice uh gave advice to um one of our colleagues who had lost his um son his teenage son and Tim said to this colleague you know would you still take the years that you had with him knowing how it was going to end and of course the answer is yes um and the other thing he said was that it is physically impossible to cry um while running I haven't tested this out I'm not a runner I wish I was um but if only for this reason and then sadly Tim passed away um just a few years later at the age of 58 um but the the second thing is you know you mentioned this house with the big windows that you pictured pistachio sitting by and I would encourage you still to make a new spot in your home where you can remember and cherish her spirit you know get the cozy blankets get the cozy pillows maybe hang a picture on the wall or a piece of art that commemorates her life and this can be your safe space where you go when you're missing
Speaker 1her I love that that's that's great advice thank you and another listener has has written in and said how do you deal with people who don't understand the deep loss of a
Speaker 3pet so when our animals pass of course our natural tendency is to seek comfort from those closest to us and wouldn't it be ideal if they were able to provide us with the support that we need but sometimes this just isn't the case and if our grief is met with invalidation or with apathy from the humans that we love we're going to experience shame loneliness in addition to several other deep feelings that are really going to hurt us and I think this is where it's so important to know which loved ones we can count on we need to find those that will be supportive and will validate everything that we're going through and this is going to sound really potentially blunt but it's real and honest talk I think we need to be selective with who we're vulnerable with so I have a girlfriend a very close girlfriend from high school um I'm godmother to her son but she is not an animal person and I know that if I went to her I would not get what I need um so I'm just I I know not to do that and I think this is where podcast your podcast is so incredibly helpful because you get it um and this is also too where support groups um for pet loss um could can be
Speaker 2really helpful community is everything when you're grieving like connecting with people who get it is just it's been one of the most helpful things for Sal and I in our grief another question here I love this one actually it's an interesting question um how do I help my dog who is grieving the loss of her dog brother as much as we are oh my gosh okay these are such good
Speaker 3questions right like oh they're so heartfelt so I've heard from the veterinarians that I work with that keeping the routine is so important because it provides structure which is so important to us as well um it gives us both that security that we're craving when we're grieving um and I think you know some special attention maybe a new toy maybe a new treat an activity that you both can engage in where you can really assure reassure them that your bond is strong um I was just reading a study today that claims that our animals, the ones that are still with us when our others pass, they want to protect us. That animals are so highly sensitive to human emotions and it, you know, they really can pick up on our grief, on our anxiety. They sense it in us. They're able to read, you know, our body language, our facial expressions, the tone of our voice. So we also just might, might want to be really mindful of that if we're trying to protect them in the loss, in this loss. I'm a huge fan of crying in the bathtub. You know, I go and I have my private time and, you know, then you can just kind of splash the tears away and come, come back out and be there for them.
Speaker 2Oh, and they do grieve. Like my dog Bosley, when I was obviously in the depths of my grief with my mom and I'd be crying on the couch and like Bosley would be the first one to come and like sit on me and just stare at me. And, oh yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 3I truly, I think we're just right on the cusp of realizing how brilliant and sentient these, these animals are. And it's on us that we haven't figured out how to communicate with them. But I truly think that we're just going to be astounded when this research comes out.
Speaker 1I can really relate to that as well, because like in my, my two dogs were there for me and they were so comforting. They, they helped me so much through my grief. And, um, and we touched on this earlier about what can happen if you do have a pet that you've shared with a partner and then you break up and we've got a list that's written in and said, my pet hasn't died, but I've had a breakup and I can no longer see her. How do I cope with this kind of loss?
Speaker 3So I would view this, I mean, truly, um, as a child custody case, there are children, right? We've been saying that for this whole conversation. Um, you know, and in this country, we'd have lawyers and judges and social workers and everyone would be involved in trying to figure this out. And I share this because it is so highly emotional. You know, it's such a heart rending, complicated, challenging, stressful situation. And hopefully, um, you know, this is where both parties, even though they're not romantically involved any longer, could come together to put the needs of the animal, the wants of the animal first, and could arrange for some sort of visitation schedule. Um, but I also get that maybe your partner, has moved away or you moved away, um, and you can't physically see them. So I would, you know, kindly, if it were me kindly and gently ask my former partner, if they could send me updates or photos or videos, or if they didn't want to interact with me directly, could they send these to a loved one or even post them on social media? So I could keep that connection or if I could send gifts or, or, you know, whatever that looks like for you. But of course you're going to want to keep that connection going in any way that's possible.
Speaker 2I remember when my sister separated with her old partner, they had a dog together and they were like co-parenting the dog and he ended up moving away. Like I think, yeah, quite a way out of Sydney and they do drop offs and pickups with the dog. So I think they still do it all these years later, like co-parenting their dog. They actually definitely still do that, which is amazing. Um, we have another question in here. How do I accept that my dog will die before it gets to that point to make it less shocking at the time? Tricky, tricky one to answer because I don't think you can ever really prepare yourself for these things, but do you have any, any tips up your sleeve?
Speaker 3Well, that you, I think you said that beautifully and, and exactly. So I, I actually think our grief can be more difficult. There's a term for anticipatory grief. Um, every single moment with them, we want to make the most out of everything. And I think sometimes, especially when they start to get older or if they do have a condition or they've been diagnosed, you know, we can start to get really scared to be away from them. Um, and we might even start finding ourselves really hypervigilant around their care. I know, you know, bears at least 12, maybe 14, the shelter didn't really know. Um, and I will watch him breathe. Sometimes in the middle of the night, just to make sure he, you know, he is still breathing. I would try to just encourage you to be as present in the moment as possible and to cherish these moments. You know, this is the time to do the things and say the things that you've always wanted to take the adventure, say the, I love you's document everything on film, preferably video. So you can watch it. Um, you know, then you really have these memories preserved forever. And I honestly, again, easier said than done, but I wouldn't give much time to thinking about the day or the time when they won't be here because it's not helpful. Um, many of us catastrophize another psychological term, um, that I I'm, if, if you work with me, you know, I'm very practical and real talk, but we catastrophize in this really twisted way of trying to protect and prepare ourselves. Um, but all this really does is give us anxiety. And, and fear, especially in a moment where it sounds like everything is okay right now with, with your pets. So, um, that's my two cents.
Speaker 1Is it a case of like catching yourself when you feel that you are starting to worry about it or spiral and just trying to bring yourself back in to the present moment? Can that help?
Speaker 3That that's exactly it. I would try to ground myself in any way that I could. And I think with pets, you have a built-in grounding system. I would pet them or brush their hair or do, you know, do something meaningful with them and really just kind of look into their eyes and get back to that moment. That's exactly it.
Speaker 1And it's a real learned skill, isn't it? Learning how to be in the moment, how to not be thinking about the future or the past. It's, it's definitely something like it takes practice. I mean, I'm like you, I wake up and look at my dogs to make sure they're breathing. They're not, they're, you know, they're, they're five and seven. So they're a bit younger, but I'm always going up to them and just, just check in. And I love that you said practice.
Speaker 3So, you know, with all these, I know mindfulness is such a hot topic and breathing skills and, you know, these are so helpful, but you have to practice them. You cannot just start it for the first time when you're, when you're in a panicked moment, um, that won't work you to be able to utilize them and really rely on them. I'd say practice them, set a dedicated, you know, 15 minutes once, a week and, and find something that works for you. Um, not every coping skill is going to be a fit. Um, our hope is that maybe just two to three will be out of the myriad of, of coping skills for, for anxiety and grief.
Speaker 2Yeah. We recently interviewed a resilience expert, Dr. Lucy Hone, and she had some brilliant advice. Something that you just said made me think about something that she mentioned, which is a strategy for building resilience. But when you're in those moments where you're focusing on the future or focusing on the negative things, like having that awareness to be able to sit back and say, right, is what I'm doing or thinking right now, helping or harming me. And yeah, it's really great to have that ability to kind of ask yourself those questions, but like, Hey, these thoughts are not actually doing me any favors. I'm going to focus on things that I can control now, rather than the future, which none of us unfortunately have any control over.
Speaker 3No, that's exactly it. And it can be just the simplest thing of switching up your environment I know just going outside. If I'm alone in my home, in my apartment, I'm going to spiral. But if I step outside on the street and I see that life is still continuing on all around me, that really helps for me. I mean, stopping to smell the flowers, that is a coping skill. So absolutely that that's tremendous advice that she gave.
Speaker 1And, and that leads me onto our next question, which is what strategies can we use to help ourselves when we're coping with the loss of a pet? So going outside, just getting a bit of a break in our routine, what else is, is, is helpful when we're, when we're mourning our pets?
Speaker 3No, of course. So I call the first few weeks after the loss, the surreal time for many of us, it's going to be incomprehensible that they aren't here physically with us. So this is the time that those first few weeks, the first month to surround yourself with what brings you comfort. So for me, again, it's nature, it's the forest, it's being near water. Also just something like buying a bouquet at the grocery store and, and having your favorite flowers or lighting a candle, watching a movie, the movie that you used to watch as a child that made you feel safe. So for me, that's the sound of music. But then, you know, you know, once the first month, and you really do want to start working on, on feeling, I don't say better. I say, you know, just more secure and more stable. The, the, the most helpful piece of, of grief research for me is wardens for tasks of mourning. And they're very brief. I'll share them here. But the first is to accept the reality of the loss. And that takes time. We can't, there's nothing that we can do to really force that, that, that will come with time. The second is to work through the pain of grief. So what we're doing right now, talking about it, we know that we're doing it the healthiest way. Exercise is also very healthy. But what's on the inside, stuff it down, those emotions, they're always going to find their way back out, always. And this is the healthiest way for them to come out. The third is to adjust to your new environment without the pet, without the person. This was obviously made for humans, but I've adjusted it for animals. So what does your new home look like? What does going to work now look like? What do you do on the weekends when they used to be the center of your life? And then the fourth is to find that enduring connection with them, to find meaning again. I had the most brilliant professor in grad school, Dr. Steve Smith, and he was teaching theory. It was something very intense and I wasn't good at it. I was terrible. Psychodynamic therapy. And it was very hard for me to grasp. And I was so scared of the exam. I wasn't good at it. I was so scared of the exam. I wasn't doing well in his class. But anyway, the final day came and he's passing them out and we're all so nervous. And this was the exam question. What makes you get out of bed in the morning? That was it. That was the full exam of his semester long intense class. And I think that's it. You know, grief can prompt a time to really reflect on, you know, what do I consider a fulfilling life? What am I proud of? Who do I want to become? What inspires me? You know, what do I want my legacy to be? What do I want my pet's legacy to be? You know, who and what do I love the most? So I think grief can really prompt a time to ask those questions.
Speaker 2I love that. And it's such a simple question too, isn't it? Like, and one that we could all ask, no matter who we're grieving and where, no matter where we are in our grief as well. Katie, this has been such a great conversation. And I'm so glad that we've finally been able to cover this topic because I know it's going to help so many of our community members. Lastly, before we let you go, where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 3Oh, at Pet Law Psychologist is my Instagram account. I try to do these podcasts or lives with different animal rescue and animal welfare organizations. It's very, very important to me that these be free. Mental health, at least in the US is incredibly expensive and very different to access. So that's the whole point why I started this account so that we can build this community. Like you both said, community is everything, especially in grief. So that's the best place to find me. And then for any specific questions, drkatielawler at gmail.com.
Speaker 2Brilliant. Thank you so much, Katie, for your time. It's been lovely to have you on the podcast. Oh gosh, absolute same. I feel the same way. As always, a huge thanks for tuning in guys. We really, really appreciate it.
Speaker 1We hope that you enjoyed listening to this episode. And before we go, we have a little favor to ask. We'd love it if you could leave us a rating or a review wherever you listen to your podcast as it really helps other grievers find us too. Until next time. Bye.
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