Convicting Jose Fernandez on Film, a Wings-Lynx Deep Dive, and Caitlin Clark’s Shot Chart With Hunter Cruse

It's Bob and everybody, it's Logan Murdock here from The Ringer, the 2025-2026 NBA season is here and we got your group podcast needs covered. On The Ringer NBA show, be sure to check out Group Chat with Justin Barrier, Rob Mahoney and Jake Hyleman on Sundays and Wednesdays and real ones. On Tuesdays and Fridays with myself, Rajabell, and Howard Beck, get your Ringer-related NBA podcast fix on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, come find us on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at the Handle Ringer NBA. Welcome to The Ringer-WNBA Show, I'm Siri Sohee and I'm joined by Hunter Cruz, a WNBA draft extraordinaire, expert on all things, young players. No better person that I could potentially have to talk about a Weng's Links showdown Olivia Miles, a number two pick, playing AZ Fud the number one pick, of course, a showdown of former rookie of the years, well, of last year's rookie of the year, Pagebeckers with who feels likely to be the rookie of the year in Olivia Miles with all due respect to Pauline Astier, who's doing some fun things with the liberty of between all of that, between Jose Fernandez, emptying the clip after the game. And what I think is a very interesting tactical moment in Katelyn Clark's career, I just couldn't think of a better person to talk to and Hunter, a question that I posed to you before the podcast was of the last five rookie of the year picks, including Olivia Miles, who are going to show horns to this conversation, who has a high ceiling at this point? And what is it going to take for them to get there? That is sort of the, what I hope to kind of be like the ongoing theme of this episode as we rattle through a bunch of stuff that is going on, and we will get into all of that, but I feel like it would be irresponsible to not start with Jose Fernandez in the last question that he was asked after the wings gave up, you know, they led for most of this game, and then they just kind of fell apart on defense. I also think they fell apart on offense in ways that I would like to get into, and they had some rotational issues that, you know, kind of has me questioning whether he should have gone so hard three games into the season when it's still clear that he's still figuring out his team as well, but let's just play a clip of what he said, and then we'll get into it. I just want to follow up on what you mentioned earlier when you talked about emotions surrounding minutes and starting, were you suggesting that these are things coming up during the game and impacting the game, and if so, is there a play in the place like, are you looking at, look at that as some of the reason to get the brazos, there's a sense of urgency? I mean, it's real talk and it's accountability. That's what I told them. I go, there's selfishness in this locker room. There is, and, you know, you got to, you got to, you got to look in the mirror and be accountable on how you play it, and don't get upset if you think that you should have played more, or you didn't play enough, or you didn't get the shots that you think you should have gotten. Really good teams, I don't give a shit about that. No, they give a shit about, they give a shit about winning, because that's what matters. All right, Hunter, what was your first takeaway from hearing this? To me, it seemed pretty bold to come out game three, come out firing game three with like selfishness stuff and like, the defense is a major issue, but considering how the first three games went, I don't think it was like a need for this level of public. Because they, they guess they're one in two, but they lost by five to Atlanta, they lost by four against a very good Minnesota team, I don't, I don't think it was like quite needed to that degree. I understand like, what are you saying? But I don't know if public, that was like the best avenue for how to, how to, how to handle the situation necessarily. Yeah, it puts them in an interesting situation now where what, I guess at least what we see as tactical issues, have now been spotlighted to a place where you're thinking about, oh, is there, are there issues in a locker room? Are there issues around unselfishness? One thing that I think is kind of funny is that it's really hard to figure out if this is singling anybody out at all. I think like, you could tell yourself a story where this is about, easy, who is obviously coming off the bench as a number one pick, played 20 minutes yesterday, and when he was asked about that, he was kind of, he almost said, yeah, she played 20 minutes in a way that was like, almost like, yeah, are you guys happy now? Obviously didn't finish the game, Maddie Sieger says 17 points in the first half only plays six minutes in the second half, probably not a walk, probably not page backers, probably not Odyssey Sims, maybe Orique, probably not Jess Shep, but I think, I think it's really interesting. So on one hand, you're three games in, you are a rookie head coach. Everything that he has said so far tells me that he is somebody that has a very clear standard about what he wants to implement, and if he wants to go three games in and just be like, we are not, this is not the Chris Cochlanis regime, you are not going to be giggling on the sidelines because you don't think you're playing enough minutes. We're not going to be sub-tweeting, we're not going to be throwing jabs and things like that. I do believe that there is a degree to which there is a culture shock and a cultural reinvention that he is trying to implement right now and the players have talked a lot about accountability. What happens next just really comes down to how much equity he is built with them. I will say it seems like he definitely has page backers buy in and that's probably the most important, she has compared him to Geno multiple times, dare I say, this is almost, this is like if you did a simulation of what Geno would have been like as a WNBA coach. You have seen college coaches do this, Lynn Roberts just did this after the first game of the season and you know what, Cam Brink, we'll talk about later, also responded to that challenge. So it doesn't necessarily, you know, it's early to do something like this, doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, they have a game on Monday against the Mystics, they have the weekend to really think about all of this. He probably has a weekend to really get into what he wants from his players. But on his face, it definitely, look, it makes the situation spicy. Jose Fernandez has become a bit of a content machine. People like you and I are obviously here for it, but we'll see what it means for the wings. Yeah, and there is some tactical things we'll talk about, like how they were using Jessica Shepherd defensively to me, like laid that was an interesting thing and her defense has been pretty bad to the first couple of games, but a lot of it to me, and I think you, I don't know if you might disagree with this, but I really am not a fan of the roster construction overall. And specifically what that means for the defense, because this is what was going to happen defensively, like they do not have the personnel to be good defensively. I don't like, I just don't see a way that happens and I get the concerns about the selfishness aspects, because they can at least be more competent defensively. But when you make the moves you made, I just don't see like the point of attack defense there whatsoever lands kind of your only, like, rim protector. But even then she hasn't been all that good this season so far. And how much of her success was Sharif? How much was it the scheme, specifically offensively, there's been a big drop off there for her. Yeah, like not having many wing defenders, you're just in a really tough spot defensively and having to play Jessica Shepherd a lot of minutes and she's great offensively. I love the hub stuff. She does the passer and a score and a finisher and rebounder stuff too, but just to me so much of it is just a personal base with the defense. Wow. So I was much higher on this on their defense coming into the season. I do agree that they have some issues at the point of attack. I also would like to add, I don't think anybody comes away looking better. than Cheryl Reeve right now. Not only does she have this tactical game plan with Olivia Miles, they get Olivia Miles at the number two because, you know, Dallas takes easy fun at the number one. At this point, if you're going to play page off the ball as much as you are, now I'm really starting to wonder why Olivia Miles wasn't part of your conversations. This wasn't something that I really had as a consideration before. I saw the way that this roster plays, but now it's sort of like, look, like for all the sort of things that you want to fix, that you need to fix, especially on the offensive and boy, would you have loved to have her. But I think, I mean, I think in a way she kind of put Jose on tilt because the wings got outcoach in that fourth quarter. Fernandez had a great line. You said coaches lie, players lie, film convicts. With that in mind, Hunter and I decided to go through the fourth quarter film, and there were a couple things that really, really stood out to us. Where do you want to start on this? Yeah, like I said, Jess. It's like a shepherd defensively, and Natasha Howard, there was the turnover is, but like the scoring, what does she score, 27 points or something like that in this game? She got so many easy looks, like some of it is Olivia Miles' playmaking, but also bringing two to the ball, one of Olivia Miles and like doing some stuff like that, and that way they just gave so much space downhill, and then like Dallas' help was just egregious, and then if you're putting two in the ball and your help's awful, like there's just, there's no way this is going to work defensively. That was time and time again, late in this game, it just felt like Dallas, like their team defense was pretty bad, and not having point of attack defenders in one ball, like you just can't have both. If you're not going to have any elite POA defender, you have to have crazy good help, like communication on the back line, recovery, second efforts, and they just do not have that right now. It feels like. Yeah, I mean, there were a number of moments where it felt like Shepp was overextending, and there were also some really indefensible moments where she was basically just not paying attention in semi-transition, off of made buckets, Olivia Miles, who plays with better pace than just about anybody I've seen as a rookie this early in their career. Just decided that she was going to take advantage of that. They run like high transition pick and rolls. Jess Shepp doesn't communicate with Odyssey Sims. Odyssey Sims gets destroyed on the screen, Natasha Howard gets a free layup. There's another one of those, it's a free layup for Olivia Miles. Now, and this is where I kind of have to take issue with Jose, when you're asking for his defensive rotations, right, alongside a better ball movement on the offensive end. We'll get into that part later, but you have Jess Shepp finish this game when she is made a number of egregious mistakes. Then you have Maddie Seagrist, who there's one particular play. It was like, with five minutes left in the game, Jess Sheets almost gets a deflection. She doesn't. It's a scramble. Maddie saves a possession from a layup. K-Mac takes a bad shot, but then the link score on an offensive rebound. The only reason Maddie's out of position is because she has to save Jessica in that moment. I really felt like Seagrist was doing a lot of what she was supposed to do in this game play after that one foot in the paint because she's guarding me a coffee. As soon as Olivia Miles turns a corner and she's one pass away, she does what she's supposed to do. She gets back onto coffee again. Shepp is overextended. This is a double drag, as well, or a stacked pick and roll, where like, "Azy could have gotten back," but it was one of many and the one that I really want to highlight. It's one that the guy is Duncan posted on his Twitter and that I stared at for a long time. Because to me, it was a combination of things and the most impressive thing to me about it was the way in which it felt like the high watermark early of Olivia Miles' angle manipulation, Washero Reeves spacing manipulation, and then just a really tricky rolling player like Natasha Howard. She does this genius thing where she rolls over to the corner. She creates just a little bit of extra space and then from there, Olivia Miles can basically just decide whatever she wants to do. Mia coffee ends up getting just like a straight-up layup and it's so egregious. She just has, you know, the most space anybody could ever have and no one's there to get her. At this point, I just think the wings are confused. They don't know who's supposed to be helping in that situation, right? And that's what a young team needs a timeout. Because this happened over and over again in the pick and roll. Cheryl Reeve, Olivia Miles, Cornie Williams, as Atrio with Howard as a roller and the spacing that they had with coffee, was just something that over and over and came back was just something that over and over again, they punished and there was just no adjustment from the wing see fence. Yeah, and to me, it was a masterclassic from Cheryl Reeve, like just how much Cheryl Reeve outcoached, Jose Fernandez in this game is crazy and it's, I mean, it's not surprising. Cheryl's one of the best coaches ever in just how she adapts her system to the personnel she has, who's over the last few years, pretty much like since Lindsay Whalen. They haven't had that, that pure point guard, their big time, playmaker, the guard position. So they've went away from like high pick and roll the last couple of years, I think the last few years, they've ranked around like five or six in pick and rolls of game. So far this year, Olivia Miles has ran more pick and rolls than anybody in the league. And she's a rookie. Like they've, they've went to high pick and roll a lot more, setting high screens, getting live in the action, letting her run things and that's like just how good Cheryl Reeve is. The spacing, like you said, the spacing's been phenomenal and just using a touch of Howard as a roller. Then also like neocoffee, I thought neocoffee was like cooked, like I thought she had nothing left in the tank anymore. Like the last two years in Atlanta, it was not good. Like whatsoever. And I was watching her a lot overseas because she played with all of them for Valencia. She was not good. She was playing better for Minnesota than she did in the Spanish league. Like she was not good in the Spanish league. Like she was probably the fifth best player in that team. So it's like so interesting how Cheryl Reeve just like how she elevates replacement level players to be like solid contributors, it's just pretty wild. So yeah, I think it was, it was, I was more impressed, I would say, with Minnesota than I was disappointed with Dallas because I think I just, I'm just like not high on the defense and I just not surprised whatsoever and how that's went so far. No, that's a fair point. Maybe you were early to that because as we talk about Jess Shep, as we talk about the lack of point attack defenders, now of course, I think that they can do some drop coverage and just like adapt to the fact that like maybe they're going to have to play a little bit more of a conservative style of defense down the line. Yeah, like the, the points that you bring up are pretty irrefutable. Man, on Cheryl, I just can't help but think about the fee of it all. Like if I'm, if I'm Collier and I'm watching this on the bench, you know, I've, she spoke to NPR a little while ago, she talked about how, you know, she's, she got the one year with with Minnesota, she's going to be a free agent for the first time. Cheryl put it best. 15 teams are going to be competing for her talent and they are going to be one of them. I'm putting on a pretty good showcase right now if I'm Cheryl Reeve in the Minnesota links because if I'm a piece of Collier, all I'm thinking about is how well I can't wait to get out there and play with Olivia Miles, how I can't wait to get out there and be part of these picket roles and be part of this spacing context and this movement. On top of the fact that, you know, you're playing this Dallas team that basically like store your back or store your front court. And their flaws are being exposed in a different context like this team decided that they were going to play Atlanta, pay Atlanta Smith, a max contract and Cheryl said, we're good to your point. There's only a coffee. Nobody else in the league sees when you a coffee can do for us, but we can. And if I'm looking at that, I'm like, okay, like, yes, the league has gotten better. Yes, there are teams that have, you know, bigger spotlights. There are bigger markets out there. But the grass is always greener and I don't know if I'm ever going to get a better tactical coach, a better scouting coach, a better just like nose where to put all the pieces on the chessboard coach, then Cheryl Reeve, especially now that she's got this mad genius in Olivia Miles with her who can just, I mean, the things that Olivia Miles can do with the basketball on her hands. I think you make a great point about how many pick and rolls she's running like they are empowering her to basically do what she does best. And it's almost like watching like a, like relative to the talent in the WNBA, like a faster Luca. Like she's one of those players that in the pick and roll, she's just never without a move. She can pick up her dribble and like have a pass fake and like a step through to just like manipulate the defense. She can put you in a cage. She can also just like recognize that you're over playing and go faster than you and her ability to process those things in real time while also like being really low on the turnovers has just been so, so impressive. Yeah. I think she's probably the second best player in the league at using her off hand to pass, like just how much velocity she gets with her off hand. Just can do anything when ball screens and there's, there was way too many people that were just doubting Olivia Miles with the prospect like thinking that the shooting was a super big issue. The defense was too big of an issue. She's not even hitting threes yet, right? If the shooting ever gets to the level that it could get to and she's pulled up three points thread and like what do you do in that scenario? If you have a Nefesa call your Olivia Miles ball screen and Olivia Miles is a thread on pull up threes, like there's really no answer for it. And I think people also like out of the athleticism too, but people thought she wasn't a good athlete which I didn't really agree with and a lot of that is maybe she's not the quickest straight line athlete. I think she's like a pretty good straight line athlete, like she's getting rempressure whenever she wants. But Olivia Miles' best athleticism is like that change of pace, how she manipulates angles and just like stop start ability, the diesel and all of that is insane athleticism to me. It's not just your straight line's track speed, that's not just that's not the only part of athleticism. So yeah, I think Olivia Miles is like far and away, like the rookie of the year. favorite right now just all star level impact right now best player on the link so far this season like it's not even close to me and as far as the impact I don't I don't I mean I think I think part of that was that she just wasn't playing a lick of defense in college but I think it was easier she had nobody she had no help she had help but she wasn't necessarily helping herself either no yeah the defense was bad but at the same time it's still not been good in the W it's but it's also there's some level just be okay can you just not get cooked every single possession and if there's a coach that's going to put you in spot to not get cooked every possession it's it's a relief and she also I think I think I think Cheryl brought up a great point after the draft where she was like yeah I think we're gonna get her to play defense like it was just it was just so matter of fact about the fact that like once she tries it's gonna be fine and she's also really impressed to her that the margin of error is a lot lower in the WNBA too and Olivia seemed to take that to heart too with like the the passes um and she's she's pulling off these highlight real passes without necessarily having to thread the needle too much or at least she's she's doing it away like there's one that she just passed it like five oh like through the arms of Odyssey Sam's like straight into Natasha Howard absolute laser it was just an amazing pass um but I do think I do think people over index on her flaws I'll bring up it's it's another sort of look up parallel where you can say oh like the defense isn't isn't good or like oh like I mean I also think in in in college like the the pull up three shot selection there were there were some ways in which Olivia Miles was playing into the worst version of herself but you do have to give Minnesota kudos for just seeing through all of that and and like just understanding that there's a generational passing talent here and you just you you have to go with like the ceiling like the I mean obviously about the ceiling so I'll FM obviously it's not played yet the GM's said that they see Olivia Miles is being the rookie of the year but I'll FM as being the player that has a high ceiling five years I really want to get your thoughts on that yeah that's that's that's where I'm at to that's where I was at to reach out I I love you my I was winning rookie of the year but I think all what famous prospects is a little bit better long-term I had the same grade on both like I think they're they're both very close for me but I gave all of the nudge just because age potential and lives flaws of like the shooting and the defense playing into that too and that was that was my whole part of taking easy foot one preface is by saying I think he's going to be a very good player like the shooting is is a clear great talent the defense is is pretty solid to me but I'm not a huge fan of the context and like the role also not really a huge fan of like her train down three like she just cannot be trained down three's like this doesn't look confident at all driving I think she'll figure out at some point but that even if it's like when she does and she does start taking a lot of threes and that's their the ceilings not there like as an one ball player for me to pass on Olivia Miles and all of them and also what plays into that for Dallas is you have page beckers and what why I thought they took an all-while fam at one is this might be your last chance to get that number one overall pick so why not go for upside now like you saw them trying to swing and go out and get when now pieces I would have went upside at number one just because of that is your last chance and now they've kind of pigeon hold themselves in a spot where they've signed land to a three-year deal in Jessica Shepherd to a two-year deal where what was thinking about Minnesota and those two players is they did not translate that well into playoff impact Jessica Shepherd as we've seen now like her defense I just don't see her as a playoff player she's more regular season just because the defense is so bad that Elena Smith the offense I think it's been a big it was a big problem in last year's playoffs to just like couldn't hit a jumper so like I think you're you're you're investing a lot into players that aren't going to necessarily impact you at the highest level when you're trying to make that next leap from I guess the goal now is to go from like lottery to playoffs to where what's that next step do you have the players by bringing the players you have now so I wasn't a huge fan of the overall process of their offseason I get it trying to win now and I get like the economics behind like one in a good team wanting to win wanting to have good culture but I think it might have hurt them a lot long term by making this move I hadn't considered Dallas as a team that over accelerated their timeline I think I was so excited about their free agency and not gonna go off there but I remember Kurt Miller last year mentioned how they want to take a O.K.C. style rebuild timeline and I guess he went away from that yeah that was some he mentioned a broadcast oh that's interesting why do you think he pivoted it that's not this is an O.K.C. style this is this is this is this window you could possibly do for a team with a number one overall pick yeah I'm not I'm not too sure what the kind of the strategy behind that was huh that's really interesting um an O.K.C. style pick in the sense of the high upside that she brings to the table as well I mean I think you I mean I agree I think they should have taken O.K.C. number one now looking at their style their play I'm also putting only vm miles on at least as well I will say I do think there are ways that this team can work look like they play three games all of them have been very close they could be on three they could be three and oh right now if a couple things end up going differently um they're one and two and again like honestly don't even think we'd be having this conversation in the way that we're having it if Jose kind of emptied the clip at the end of that game and I think you're like I mean I think that's a very interesting point like how much have they hurt the overall ceiling of how good that they can be with the decisions they've made in this offseason um and it it's it's kind of unfair that this is all gonna like center around AZ when like this is a combination of front office decisions but I just found myself asking so watching this fourth quarter and AZ is probably playing as good as defense as you can ask her to especially if you're gonna make her the point of attack defender on Olivia Miles especially in the fourth now I think she had some moments early in the game where she was definitely getting lost but she has a transition strip on Olivia that is like but just saves two points it's a huge play um she gets back at but came back but she blocks her from behind the reps call it they don't overturn the challenge I don't think there was any contact there um she had a couple other good moments where she was just like they're on on help I think some of the ones where she was lost everybody was lost again like that's like call a timeout your your team clearly doesn't know where it's supposed to be um on on on the scrabble here right and she doesn't end up finishing the game they get Odyssey Sims in um presumably to get some help for Paige who's getting trapped however Paige is getting trapped I'd rather have her in space and I want to talk about the offensive execution but the bigger question to me is are they slow playing AZ are they load managing her to a degree because they want her to peak in the playoffs as opposed to be being like completely burnt out from a college season as well some of Jose's comments kind of suggest that that is the case I do think they might be like low key load managing at the same time I felt like that was a game she should have finished if she's one of the people that is potentially upset I wouldn't necessarily blame her because she's definitely having a better defensive game than Orique was and she also helps up the spacing context a lot more to and especially coming off of this miles game I think like the question has just never been louder like if you weren't gonna play AZ if you don't think she's ready and if you weren't gonna have the ball in Paige's hands all the time why did you take her yeah and that that's that's the overlap to me where I didn't get bring in a re-k back and especially bring her back for two years and investing now in this regard look rotation I just don't see the the the the process and honestly how that is a good decision where we saw last year the page in a re-k back court I just never thought it was the best way because next to page like the ideal back court pairing like to me is like a lily contype they could have drafted that was that was that was a Greg Bibb issue it's like they need that more like defensive first player in the back court if you're gonna if you're gonna put AZ and it's as your third guard this page loves to get off the ball more and I guess Paige's biggest issue in this game I think is sometimes just too passive and nothing it's usually been her issue is just the past and it's as she plays with but yeah I just don't think it's a it's a phenomenal context for AZ where at times you're gonna be the fifth guard if Isaiah James is on and Odyssey Sims is on you're gonna be the fifth guard they haven't given her a long leash at they haven't run a ton of sets for her I haven't loved the deployment I've enjoyed the offense though for Dallas like I'm gonna say that I think like the offball like screening and just the creativity I think they've done some good self-authentially overall in these three games but yeah I don't I don't understand the the process there if you thought this was the number one pick to not give her like if you think it was the number one pick I think you you you should believe that I mean I mean yeah I think if she's if you think she's the number one pick if you think she's better than like I'll I'm an easy fight I think you should be like running stuff like with her I don't think you should be using her as like a decoy option of like just a four-spacer that doesn't make any sense as a number one overall pick if it was the fifth pick or six pick like sure I guess that's that's like more than a deployment of how they're using her verse like a number one - It is, that's how they treat her. - Yeah. - And there's also the Ziya James piece of this as well. Like she's coming to this season and she looks much improved and she's been like, probably, Darius? Darius say their best point of it's active in her? - And that's the other issue of where this roster is at right now is they don't have any wing players on the entire roster. So the, I guess they have a Ziya James, they're not playing JJ Quinnoli if she's out of the rotation. So they have to put Odyssey Sims, she's like, they're only like, I would say good, good. Okay, solid point of attack defender. She's pretty respectable there. Now you're asking an easy to guard the point of attack where easy, that's not where she's best at. The screen navigation is the big issue. She gets caught on a lot of screens, one possession of this game where it wasn't even a, just screened him and come yet, but she was stuck in mud. Olivia Mal is blow by straight to the rim. She's now being asked to play a defensive role that is not where she is at her best. She's a lot better off the ball and help rotation wise knows where to be and Darius needs that. But they're now asking her to guard the point of attack, take one the big time guard defenders every single night, I just think it seems gonna struggle when they play the teams with a high end, one ball guard talent, like when they play the Atlanta's or they play some other teams like that, I think they'll be a little bit better, it's suited to defend in those matchups. But when they play Indiana, they play Las Vegas, they play New York, they play Minnesota. I just don't think they have a chance really to guard the point of attack in those games. It's really, and if you're trying to talk about play at basketball, that's who you're gonna have to play. - Yeah, I mean, they might, if they play different players, but yeah, I also feel like there's a degree to which like I almost feel like Jose believes in Eureka more than he believes in AZ. Like he's been far more glowing about how he talks about Eureka and like the recruitment of her coming back in three-agency, wanting it to be very clear that she is like, they're almost like, it felt like their number one target was to get Eureka back, and he's giving her probably a little bit more leeway than he's giving other players defensively right now too, which I mean, that would also potentially wrinkle. All right, let's get into Paige's overall aggression. So after the Atlanta game, there was a sense that Paige just wasn't shooting enough, right? Like they needed her down the stretch, the offense kind of fell apart, and it was a little bit rudderless, a little bit like it was towards the end of this game. I think that there's a degree to which look, I think Paige is just one of those players that she is always going to know the best basketball play to make. So on an Atlanta dream team, where Ryan Howard is doing a great job on her, and Ryan Howard is one of the best point of attack defenders in the WNBA, I think the way that Paige computes that game, especially after missing some middies and some shots that she usually makes, is like, I'm going to look for my teammates instead, or I'm gonna look for another way to crack this code. I think the only thing that's missing here right now is a realization that a bad quote-unquote bad shot for her is sometimes better than a good shot for just about anybody else. And the numbers bear this out. For the last two years, she is shot better as a guarded player on catch and shoot, since she has unguarded. She's an incredible contested shooter. She's one of the best bad shot takers we have, ironically, because she just doesn't seem to want to take a lot of bad shots, but how often do you really see Paige get offered an uncontested shot unless she's like making one of those baseline cuts? She's one of the most efficient isolation players in the league as well, who's a said after that dream game that he wanted Paige taking more shots in isolation. And the start of this game, she was really aggressive. She finished with 27 points on, I think, just 13 shots. She had eight assists. She got to the free throw line multiple times, hit 10 free throws. Right now, she's averaging 21 points on like 57 to 55-80 splits. She is incredible. And she hits a really tough shot to open this game. Like, she hit one over Natasha Howard, bounces in. She was like a high off the glass layup that I liked that she tried, that she missed. Amazon, they're starting to use this gravity score thing and she led the WNBA and gravity score, which I totally understand, because when she gets into that eight-foot zone, when she's in that kill spot, like, there is nobody scarier. Also, fitting, coaches actually call that area the kill spot. I think for her, a lot of it is just like, don't remember your misses and understand that like, you are that good. That said, having watched the tape on the fourth quarter of this game, I don't necessarily think that Dallas put her in a position to succeed. But we'll get into that, but what did you think? I just don't think Paige can be, like, what, forcing the team and usage rate. Like, I don't think she should have a lower usage rate than all of her zi, gym, every K and Maddie Seagrist. To me, that's an issue. And I think, what also plays into it is Paige likes to play off the ball more than she likes to play on the ball. So I think on the ball sometimes, if you're gonna send two to her, she will just get the ball out of her hands and she won't fight it. And she can bail out defenders sometimes that feels like in ways like that, where if you put pressure on her, she's gonna wait the right basketball play. And like you said, sometimes the right basketball play is letting Paige cook. She hasn't taken more than 13 shots in a game yet this year. She's been crazy, no doubt top 10 player in the world, the efficiency from everywhere is wild. But I would take a little bit of a efficiency drop off there, if it meant that you're gonna get more buckets and you're gonna do a little bit more offensively. So yeah, I just don't totally love the unselfishness of the degree that it's been at. I mean, it's always been like baited into part of her game. And if you're gonna wanna build a team, actually a bunch of team around her, I just don't think the use rate can be a 22%. That stuff can be at that level. - Yeah. Well, she said this for herself. She said this before the game that this has been the struggle of her career. In fact, let's play that tape. This is obviously like the sort of, the defining as she even understands it to be struggle of her career. However, I also think that if you're her coach and you're saying that you want her to be more aggressive and you're specifically highlighting that you want her to take more isolation plays, which I love. I would love her to take more isolation. I don't even know how much of an efficiency drop off you would have unless you started to get into some really extreme levels of shot taking. And if we get there, that is a problem for another day. But here's my issue with it. So in the fourth quarter, the link started trapping her pretty aggressively. And at that point, I'm like, well, why do you keep sending screens to her? Again, this is a point in the game where they don't call a timeout for like three straight minutes. And all of it is beckers getting trapped. Beckers either trying to wait it out and then make a play. And those are the moments where I think she could have taken a shot. There was one that she gave up against K-Mac. She's in her kill spot, like just take that shot. I'd rather have you taken that shot, right? However, like she's getting blitzed to the point where they just can't really like function with her being the one running the offense. And there are possessions where they're sending picks to her twice. There's one where like Shepp tries to take it to the rim. She misses. There's one where it's really bad late clock offense, but Odyssey Sims hits a shot because she was a hero. There's one that's a shot clock violation. And to me, that's like, you gotta put your best player in a better position to succeed then. If you want her to take isolation shots, let her isolate because they're not gonna bring two to the wall if you isolate. If they do, you're in a much better spacing situation as well. So you gotta like, again, it's just sort of like, this is really, really early to empty the clip and then to accuse your team of being selfish, especially down the stretch in the fourth quarter when you're the one that's like basically like, Paige gets a ball out of her hand and it's really just like Jess Shepp does not know what to do in that context. She doesn't have the clear easy pass. Odyssey Sims does not have the clear easy pass there. Call a timeout, let them get situated and then see if you can make something out of those doubles or let Paige cook on her own. But the way that they were doing it just wasn't, it just wasn't gonna work. Like she just over and over was getting trapped. Like the only one that really like this and this is where like the off-wall stuff actually does work if you're really intentional about it. The one really good play that they had was Paige gets trapped. She gets a ball to the Odyssey. She then sends a screen for her. That makes Minnesota freak the fuck out. And Odyssey Sims gets a layup, she just misses it. But that's good offense. So yes, I want to see Paige shoot more. I think up until the point that Minnesota started trapping, she was doing everything that we've kind of been asking her to do. - Yeah, I think yeah, I agree there. - Nice, okay. - Do you have anything else, anything else on page before we, I wanna talk a little bit about Kaylin and the Sparks who I got to see on Wednesday. - Did we wanna hit the best player five years or the last five years? - I think this is, what's your answer to that? - I'm still going Kaylin for that answer. I think if we're talking ceiling of what they could be on a title team, they're still, like, in terms of how Paige is wired, to me, she's still wired as like a 1B versus like a 1A. If she gets to that point, then I think there's an absolute chance. The efficiency is crazy and the on-ball off-ball flexibility is there, but just how good Kaylin has been without a jumper so far this season. And the defense is still pretty bad. Like if the jumper comes around at the point where it's been in college or as a rookie, then I just think the offensive ceiling is just so high with what she can do as an on-ball player in the passing and the finishing's improved there too. - Well, what's she shooting right now? I think, wait, me and Lucas talked about this last week, but you had the off-dribble numbers. - Yeah, I think she's shooting, if you include the preseason, she's shooting one of 21 on pull-up jumpers so far in 2026, which is not ideal. She's also O of 10 on pull-up 3s, just this in the regular season so far, and one of 15 on pull-up 3s including the preseason. In every, I watched all of the tape, every single one of her pull-up 3s, besides I think only one or two. I think one was the late one against Dallas where she couldn't take a pull-up 3 going to her left. They're all step-by-going left, I mean. Like they're just, every time she's going step-by-going left, deep-3, she never goes step-by-going right, never steps into a 3, I think that's a big issue. With her is just how tough every single one of her pull-ups are, versus off the catch, it's just a lot cleaner looks and a lot more balanced to her shot, which I believe also plays into the inconsistency. The step-by-jumper going left was a staple for gaming college. It's going to always be a staple for game, but teams know what they're doing. If there was one time in the game against L.A. where Cameron brought her mid-range jumper because they know where she's trying to get to, it's every shot step-by-going left, and that's got to improve, I think. - Yeah, she's made three shots from three this year. All of them have been catching shoot. At this point, I don't really think that's a coincidence. I think that going back to last year, even her rookie gear to a degree, like the efficiency on the three-point shot has basically, has been lacking since she left college. And everybody's still guarding her. Like, the way they wouldn't call it. It's a gravity is there. And I think it should be because I think when she gets open and she gets easy, look, she does make them. But I do think that there is like this interesting balance to her game now. The notion of Katelyn three in a logoless context, but destroying at the rim. She's the most efficient rim player in the league this season. She's shooting like 90% on layups. Her burst is back, her explosion is back. She's clearly worked on it, the hesitations, the spin moves. It's very obvious that, and I asked her about this before, after the Sparks game. Let's play that for a second. - Katelyn, here Katelyn has been associated with logo three for a long time. But, it seems like you've done a lot of work to improve. Oh, there it is, we came here. There's a part of your game. - It's going well. - Why does it take the most pride in improving? - Yeah, well, obviously, I'm only made of one three tonight. But, I haven't let that affect me. Obviously, I haven't shut the ball as well. So, I would have liked the first two games. But, my shot feels great, and I feel like it's right there. But, I haven't let that bother my mind. Do these first two games. And, the best thing I can do for this team is play make. Like, at the end of the day, I can score the ball. I can make threes, but what I can do best for this team is make plays for my teammates. And, I know that. And, you know, getting my feet in the paint, spraying it to my teammates. I think that's, you know, what I'm trying to focus on the most. And, you know, it takes my mind away from feeling like I need to make every shot. And, you know, when I get my feet in the paint, good things happen. I can get to the free throw line. I can finish well around the rim. I feel like my speed in my burst is back, and that helps me get down a little bit better than I was last year. So, take a lot of pride in that. I feel like I'm finishing well around the rim. And, setting my teammates up for success. And, probably could have done that a little bit better. And, the second half, we struggled, especially there in the fourth to kind of get the ball pop in the way that we were in the first half. So, just something for us to learn and clean up. The thing that I found most interesting about what she said was just that playing below the rim and being able to put aggressive aggression towards the rim, it allows her to play make. But it also takes pressure off of her, hitting her threes all the time. I think that there was a sort of, she either takes the three pointer and makes the three pointer or she's not going to have much offense going for her, sort of context that she existed in her, especially in her rookie year. And then, just being her not having her burst in her second year and I went back and looked at it. She said 17 games where she's shot below 25% from three. In all but one of those games, she's shot below 37%. That's in her first two years. This year, she hasn't even cracked 25%. But she's shooting 68% from two, shooting 90% on the lip, being like the best finisher in the league. It's just more balanced, it's more sustainable. It's not quite as, like it might not be, like the sort of like television experience, I watched a second half with some friends who got tickets to the games. And I also think it's something kind of interesting to track. Opera Bowl was like empty for the Sparks Fever game, which is just never an experience that I would have, I would have thought I was having, right? Like this was a game that was like sold out in her rookie year. My roommate and a couple of his friends got in for $40 to get a suite. So I watched a second half with them and they're having a great time, right? Like everyone's really enjoying the speed of playmaking, her ability to get through the rim, just like Kelsey Plum, it's a great game. However, there is this sort of like, when she's gonna make a three, like there's sort of like the building is ready to burst for a Caitlin Clark three. And like we haven't quite had that. And I think it's like, if this is, I don't know if this is a future, right? Like I could look like an idiot in like a week when she like just decides that she's gonna like shoot 43% from three. But if on some level, this is a future, I do wonder what it means for the fever. I wonder what it means for Caitlin. I wonder what it means for the WNBA at large. It's like, it's just, it's an interesting moment in like the tactical story of Caitlin Clark. - Yeah, that's something I recorded a video on. On Caitlin's shooting struggles so far and it's with the offense too. And that's what I said to it. We'll see, I could look dumb in a week and Caitlin has a five game stretch and she goes crazy from three. And that's always why she's still gonna be respected. Because if she hits the one shot, there's the second and the third and the fourth and by then, you have a 12-0 run in the game's over. Right, that's so much of what Caitlin's been through out here. Yeah, and so you're still gonna always respect her jumper. But at some point, if the jumper does not get around to the level, it's like the Dinosaur Aussie level. And that's where I'm monitoring right now. Is it gonna be Marina Maverie or is it gonna be Dinosaur Aussie? Where Marina Maverie, it's the hot, the highs in Marina Maverie are cool, but she's like a 29% pull-up shooter. She's always been in because she's another shooter. If she's Marina Maverie, I mean, it's still fine. She's a way better driver, the passing, and a way better player, obviously. But we'll see where that falls as far as where the shooting's at. Because if it is closer to Marina Maverie and just Marina's shot profile, I would rather it be more balanced as far as more catch and shoot, more off screens, finding creative ways to get the ball on her hands, without the ball off the ball, versus just a bunch of step by going left every single time. And I just think it's long-term. It's probably not the best avenue, but this year, I think you see where it goes. Coming off the injury, I think it's too early to say she's never gonna get around to the mark she was in college. I doubt she'll ever get a 40%, but with her shot died, if she ever gets to 35%, 36%, I think that's the goal. But right now, it'll be tough to see if she gets there, 'cause it's been pretty rough so far. Well, a lot of it is, I think, just a shot selection and the type of shots she's taking. Like, she's still a fantastic catch and shooter. When she's unguarded and she gets to three, like, there are a few players, I'd rather still have shooting the ball. It's why I'm in support of, you know, Steph White running her off the ball a little bit more, doing more like Steph Curry stuff with her as opposed to just having her, like, thump the ball all the time, right? And they're doing fun stuff to get. Like, a lot of that is part of why she's getting to the rim. Like, Kelsey Mitchell is like, kind of setting these goal screens for her. Everybody freaks out when Caitlyn and Kelsey are running screening action together. Caitlyn goes to the rim on or off the ball. She gets a wide open layup. Kelsey does too. Kelsey's not having a great start to the season from three as well, but she's finishing incredibly well at the rim as well. Like, the fever in general, they're gonna be able to live at the rim with a way that they play. And that's ultimately what you want. You wanna use the three-point threat to be able to get efficient shots at the rim. They're doing a pretty good job of doing that, albeit this was against the Sparks defense that has absolutely no rim protection outside of Cameron Brink right now. And it also plays like a similarly over-aggressive style with their bigs. So, small sample size. Of course, however, there's just, it's interesting, there's just a way in which this all works really, really well, even if Caitlyn doesn't have to be like that type of player. - Right, and so much of what's been the success this year is once she gets two feet in the paint, she's drawing two. I think she's probably made like seven different impressive skip passes in two games or even more than that just just going to overhead pass of the corner, wrap around pass, jump pass, different arm slots, creativity, just the im manipulation, all that's there. And there's just a chance the passing is just a better skill than the shooting. And that's probably reality, which is fine. - I mean, that's fine. That's fine, especially like with the turnovers too, like in the first game, a lot of the turnovers were just like the offensive foul was on Zaza. She definitely had some rough ones against the sparks. Like she just has this sort of like, she's almost like, she's like my dog when she sees the squirrel and she sees a teammate, teammate cutting. Like she just wants it, so she's gonna go for it. She's just gonna go for it. I think, you know, overall, like in the context of like when you watch a full game, that's what makes the offense go. Like everyone's always gonna be cutting all the time and you eat a couple turnovers. Now, Steph White after the game, there's a funny moment where Sabrina Mergent from the athletic a Steph White, she was circling on the box score. And she kind of like gave a big answer. And then Caitlyn's just like, she's circling my turnovers. Obviously, very chipper, good mood, Caitlyn Clark before and after that game. The whole team really, like, it's got a fun to watch and like warm up and everything too. They were all really, really in a great mood. They were very loose despite the loss and came out plain like it too. So yeah, it was a good game. I think this Caitlyn situation is something to monitor and I think it's just kind of, it's fascinating on like the macro and the micro level. But there's also a Sparks defense. At a Sparks offense that I think that we should get into. There are, they've started over two. They got blown out by the Aces. They sort of almost made it a fourth quarter against the fever, but didn't generally show that much. Cam Brink bounced back in a big way after being, I don't wanna go as far to say called out by Lynn Roberts, but essentially Lynn Roberts saying that we need Cam to produce. Cam produced the only two shots at Caitlyn missed inside the arc were actually blocked by Cam Brink. She was great on the drop. She was really good on Alia Boston. She frustrated the hell out of Alia Boston and then also had some good post-ups on the other end, drew some fouls. Just generally looked like she was a lot more active in that game. It was probably the one big bright spot that I saw out of the Sparks. It gives me a little bit more, I guess like, optimism that they can pick it up if they are gonna get the version of Cam that they need. But in general, I feel like they're still trying to thread this needle between development and winning. That is tough because not only did Cam to hit, they have chance great come into that game. That was a big moment. Like Lynn Roberts kinda has to take a chance or they're down 11, didn't mean to, the pun was not intended what happened. And they kind of, you know, they don't do so great from out there, but like they also need a backup wing. It'd be great if Teniyah Lads had hit two. And it's just a tough spot for them. - I think Cam Brink's probably their most important player this season, just in terms of just the room protection, how badly they need her to be like a playable piece. 'Cause you see the highs of last game, which is great. Well, you need more of that just stacking great games 'cause the biggest issue for her is gonna be foul trouble. If she's had that foul trouble, the impact's there, just what she can do offensively as a mover, how she moves, how she can shoot and play make when she's not throwing the ball over or making bad decisions. But there's just all the tools there for her to be a great player. It's more of just like in her head. I feel like it's not necessarily like what the defense is doing. So it's more of her decision making in herself. But I do have a lot of questions about this LA team. Their offense has been bad. Their 13th and offensive rating through two games. To me, a lot of that is shooting variants. They've missed a ton of threes. They've just, they can't get a head of catch and shoot jumper. Arrow outkins has been awful through their first two games. Erica Wheeler has been pretty bad. What's most inspiring to me is just the investment they've made into this roster, where they gave Erica Wheeler a two-year protect to deal, which is pretty wild to me. They gave Atkins a three-year deal. They gave Derka-Hambia a three-year deal. Those could be two of the worst contracts in the league in two or three years. If this team is just okay, I think they might have just tied themselves to being like mediocre in a way with this roster build to where they just don't have the defensive personnel with, I don't think Derka-Hambia is someone you can build with and plums. She's awesome offensively, but defensively, I think she was pretty bad defensively in that game as well. Yeah, Nekka is also only signed on for one year as well, which I just think everybody should be mindful of. The sparks are a really interesting franchise. So Lisa Leslie is getting a statue outside of crypto arena. Lisa has talked about in the past. I think the one that I remember the most is she went on Dremon Green's podcast and she's talked about how she doesn't feel like the WNBA teams do a better, like a good job of integrating their legends. And it felt pretty pointed towards the sparks. Although I do think that USC pre-Lindsay Gottlieb was getting some smoke for that as well. And the reason I was thinking about that was because A, this is obviously a great move on a franchise level. I think the sparks have ups their training staff, their analytic staff, they have short up in that regard maybe better than anybody in the league, maybe outside of the Washington Mystics, so I think I've also done a great job at that. They are currently, I think that they rent a practice facility so that they're not in this Chicago sky context where the players are changing in front of random people. And they're waiting for this practice facility that was like $100 million to be ready. And it's going to be state of the art, it's going to be all of the things. So on one hand, the infrastructure is there and I believe in the infrastructure. At the same time, it seems like the actual roster itself is being rushed as well. Like they are trying to catch up to this moment and by trying to catch up to this moment, they're actually like kind of setting themselves up for the mediocrity that you spoke of. And it's tough, it's a tough thing because I understand that I'm not saying this is true. I'm just speculating. I imagine that when you want that level of investment from ownership, they probably want you to win at the same time. So that could be part of what's happening here. But in general, you just kind of look at it and you're like, man, wouldn't Camerchia and the number two pick last year developing have been kind of nice. And then like you could have signed a free agent this summer that was different. You could have potentially gotten plum without trading. Malonga, they also really miss Julie Alamond. Like that's like, as much as we talk about the stars, I think that one role player can just, especially someone as good as Julie Alamond can really mean a lot, especially in the context of this offense that yes, they're missing three is they're not creating good shots either? - Yeah, there's no point guard. - And that's what interesting to me is, you hire Lynn Roberts as like your offensive mastermind. That's why she got the job. It's still weird how there's so much stagnation to this offense, like they run a pick and roll and then everybody else is just kind of standing around. There's not a lot of movement. And that comes with it too of just like the personnel, like you said, now having a point guard and even like some of the bigs, I think, a Gierka handby, some of like her issues driving into traffic and not knowing where to go with the ball. She had one moment in the last game too. I think what she was like, semi-transition, just like ran into two defenders, like just for no reason. So there's moments like that. And it's very tough where we look at Cameron and Brink and we say, okay, Cameron Brink is their best defender. Well, your two front court players can't play full time five and you can't play all three of them together really 'cause then you're asking what neck at a, put the three and Dierka to play the three and then you're going like jumbo lineup, you know, off a point guard there either. Like, I just don't like rosters like this where you can't get your best five players in the court together. And optimize like your best lineup with your best players. What do you think is, where you run into the situation of this team build or where some of it to me reads like the ownership wanted to win now. Like they wanted to have a winning product in the court, trading the number two overall pick when it could have been Dominic Malunga was like, I don't think it was a great move. I think Dom's upside just way too, how to pass the one for Kelsey Plum, which like you said, they could have still found a way to get Kelsey Plum if they wanted her. So not a fan of the team build. I like some of the players they do have but in collection this, this, this roster is a little bit funky and not necessarily contender. They're not necessarily a lottery team. They're just kind of somewhere in the middle. - And that's kind of the worst place that you can be. Unfortunately. - The worst spot. - Especially when you're interesting. - Go ahead. - It's the worst spot you can be. And there's not a lot of ways to get out of it either by committing to three year deals to veteran pieces too. - You know, I'm not going to lie. These are both teams that going into the season. I was pretty high on. And I still have a level of belief. Even with the sparks, like you can see what they are trying to do. And there's versions of it that can work, even their defensive style. Like I get it. That's why you have like a real braille starting. You definitely need more from Cam Brink and more time for her on the court if you're going to do that. However, like you've kind of just highlighted Dallas LA two teams that accelerated their time. timeline and have some pretty bad, what could be some pretty bad contracts if things don't pick up for them soon? And I would just, like, I would way rather be a Seattle. I would way rather be a Washington. I would way rather even be like a Connecticut Sun. Like the Connecticut Sun, like the Sun Sale is official now. They're moving to Houston next year. That's a team that, they started the season 0 and 3. They are really well positioned to get a high pick in this 2027 draft that is incredible. They also already have, like, some interesting young talents and I, a rivers and Esomoro, I think, like, should be playing more and could be, like, a most improved player candidate type of player. They haven't even had Leela Lecan in yet. And I think the second they go to Houston, that's a peragent destination. If they nailed the infrastructure stuff, like, there are just teams that, I think, like, we're probably a year away from all of this stuff really, like, really, like, us seeing where the chips fall. But I think this coming free agency, this draft, and the one after it are really gonna tell us, like, where was it smart to go all in? And where was it smart to just be a little bit more patient? And I think that the teams that we're patient are gonna be looking pretty damn good a year from now. - And a lot of it reminds me of where the NBA was at. And I think it was 2015-16, where you saw that major cat boom. The teams that went in and made some aggressive moves that off-season, like, they kind of regretted it in the long term, like, you give up your cat flexibility long term and it's all nice. You have all this money that you didn't have before and everybody's a free agent, so you have the chance to go out and sign players, you couldn't get previously, but it's a tough spot to be in long-term. I like some of the players these teams do have. They didn't improve with Dallas and LA this off-season, but you're not contenders now. And if we're talking about long-term, like, you're not setting yourself up to be a contender in long-term, but the players you did add, in my opinion. - Yeah, no, yeah, probably, you're probably right. You're probably right. I've a little bit more faith in the wings. They just have page-beckers. - Right, I do agree, yeah, for sure, no doubt. - That'll help, that'll help. They actually, I mean, in a weird way, they do kind of have like an interesting young core, still like as much as easy as probably now who you take with the number one pick in that spot. I think that- - The player still. - It's gonna be a great, great player. Ziya is very interesting. A walk is very interesting. They do have like a young core. They probably just should have been a touch more patient with it. Hunter, thank you so much for making the time. We will talk about the Sun Sale a little bit more next week. I also wanna congratulate the Toronto tempo on getting their first win in franchise history. They're gonna be in LA for two straight games, so I'm gonna get a great chance to take a look at them. I'll probably talk about them a ton more next week after really getting to see them up close and personal. I'm really looking forward to that. And we will talk to you guys after the weekend. It's gonna be, it's gonna be a good week of hoops. Really excited to see what the, how the wings respond on Monday. The fever of playing the Mystics tonight, I think that's gonna be an interesting game as well. Probably the most physical game they'll have had to play. This is the game where they're gonna need their three-point shooting to probably get back on track if they wanna be able to get to the rim. So it'll be interesting, still very early in the season, still a lot of weight and sea. Don't wanna overreact too much to any of this. Like, seasons, trajectories, all that stuff. It flips on a dime, so I'll be watching. Hunter, I'm sure you'll be watching. Thank you so much for making the time. And thank you to Stefan Adderson for producing.